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New Gods
High Father
Darkseid
Infinity Man
Takion
Orion (Full gear)


VS

Aron Rogue Watcher
Magus (Peak)
WOL Morg
Exiles Silver Surfer
WW3 Black Adam

They fight on the moon.

No Time Manipulation!

Bloodlust on!!

Team 1

Aron is the last one stand on Not so new gods team

LOL nice thread title.

Highfather vs. Aron = Aron stomps
Darkseid vs. Magus = Magus stomps
Infinity Man vs. WOL Morg = Morg narrowly, unless he gets a Source-amp
Takion vs. Exiles Surfer = Surfer
Orion vs. WW3 BA = Orion probably one-shots.


Other matchups also favor team "Not New Gods."

wait wait what?! surfer beats takion?
morg beats infinity man?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by leonheartmm
wait wait what?! surfer beats takion?
morg beats infinity man?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Versions specified, yeah.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Highfather vs. Aron = Aron stomps
Darkseid vs. Magus = Magus stomps
Infinity Man vs. WOL Morg = Morg narrowly, unless he gets a Source-amp
Takion vs. Exiles Surfer = Surfer
Orion vs. WW3 BA = Orion probably one-shots.


Other matchups also favor team "Not New Gods." I can agree with all but your 3rd and 4th choices.

Originally posted by Galan007
I can agree with all but your 3rd and 4th choices.

I was going back and forth on the Takion/Surfer one. But he was beating Galactus, the Imperial Guard, and the Exiles simultaneously.



WOL Morg vs. IM, you might be right. Hard for me to imagine IM beating the heralds that Morg did in the fashion he did it. You know more about IM than me though, so...

Orion one shotting BA.. certainly you just especially being that this is WWIII BA who was a team wrecker. IMO BA beats Orion more times then not.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Orion one shotting BA.. certainly you just especially being that this is WWIII BA who was a team wrecker. IMO BA beats Orion more times then not.

Orion's one-shotted Superman using the astroforce/harness twice (that I know of.) Supes is more durable than WWIII BA was.

So no, I don't jest.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I was going back and forth on the Takion/Surfer one. But he was beating Galactus, the Imperial Guard, and the Exiles simultaneously.



WOL Morg vs. IM, you might be right. Hard for me to imagine IM beating the heralds that Morg did in the fashion he did it. You know more about IM than me though, so... With Exiles Surfer, you could very well be right. I just wasn't sure because it's hard to judge how powerful the characters were that he beat - I mean, are we assuming their powers are = their 616 counterparts?

As for IM, he has effortlessly swatted away 'threats' that were pwning the likes of PC Superman, as well as Orion. He also owned PC Mantis (who is quite a powerhouse in his own right) with very little difficulty. In more recent times, IM has also deflected Darkseid's Omega Beams with one hand. etc.

imo, he'd take Morg - but that's just me.

Originally posted by Galan007
With Exiles Surfer, you could very well be right. I just wasn't sure because it's hard to judge how powerful the characters were that he beat - I mean, are we assuming their powers are = their 616 counterparts?
I think they're roughly equal, or even superior to their 616 members. Surfer is obviously stronger. And Galactus didn't need to feed on planets to restore his power. That would - logically - put him above his 616 counterpart at standard level. Oh, and he doesn't have to hold part of his power back due to keeping Abraxas under wraps. And the Exiles go all over the multiverse. They were pretty impressed with his power, as well as Gladiator's. So, because no indication was given that they were lesser, I just assume they're roughly the same.

Originally posted by Galan007
As for IM, he has effortlessly swatted away 'threats' that were pwning the likes of PC Superman, as well as Orion. He also owned PC Mantis (who is quite a powerhouse in his own right) with very little difficulty. In more recent times, IM has also deflected Darkseid's Omega Beams with one hand. etc.

I have a rule concerning the PC era: **** it. biscuits

Originally posted by Enyalus

I think they're roughly equal, or even superior to their 616 members. Surfer is obviously stronger. And Galactus didn't need to feed on planets to restore his power. That would - logically - put him above his 616 counterpart at standard level. Oh, and he doesn't have to hold part of his power back due to keeping Abraxas under wraps. And the Exiles go all over the multiverse. They were pretty impressed with his power, as well as Gladiator's. So, because no indication was given that they were lesser, I just assume they're roughly the same.



I have a rule concerning the PC era: **** it. biscuits

Originally posted by Enyalus
I have a rule concerning the PC era: **** it. biscuits Hater. uhuh

Originally posted by Enyalus
Orion's one-shotted Superman using the astroforce/harness twice (that I know of.) Supes is more durable than WWIII BA was.

So no, I don't jest.

Which stories are you referring to because how I remember it was Supes not KO and coming back to beat stalemate and beat orion in each.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Which stories are you referring to because how I remember it was Supes not KO and coming back to beat stalemate and beat orion in each.

Once happens in Superman Confidential 8 or 9, the other happens in...Well, I think its New Gods v3.

Galan knows.

Hey, don't throw me into this! eatermm

Teams 1 takes it overall, Infinity Man and Takion of the Source swing this match in their favor. Also Highfather has shields and of course the OS.

Originally posted by Allankles
Teams 1 takes it overall, Infinity Man and Takion of the Source swing this match in their favor. Also Highfather has shields and of course the OS.
Magus forces Darkseid to OS Takion.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Magus forces Darkseid to OS Takion.



How? Remember DS is the god of anti-life.

Originally posted by Allankles
How? Remember DS is the god of anti-life.
And Magus at his peak had the Soul Gem, and is plenty capable of manipulating all of that darkness in DS's soul.

Originally posted by Enyalus
And Magus at his peak had the Soul Gem, and is plenty capable of manipulating all of that darkness in DS's soul.

But how is he going to make him do anything? That would involve affecting free will, that can't happen with a being who has complete knowledge of Antilife and is the god of said concept i.e. he has complete understanding of the concepts that allow for the existence of a soul gem.

The same way he understood that some of Emperor Joker's powers resulted from the existence of the concept of Anti-Life. Understanding at the conceptual level.

Having the knowledge to know you're being manipulated and having the power to stop it are two entirely different things.

Team 2 wins.

Originally posted by Allankles
How? Remember DS is the god of anti-life. Darkseid doesn't have the ale for this thread.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Having the knowledge to know you're being manipulated and having the power to stop it are two entirely different things.

The NG deal with things similar to the IG at a first cause level. The gems are only the "effect" (they are non essential to the existence of certain forces), Anti-life is a cause (essential to the existence of certain universal forces). The Source was the first cause, and by understanding what came before, the NG can control any energy or force. (e.g. the 7 imperishable treasures )

Cause and effect. The Source is the first cause, the ultimate concept from which all other concepts are formed.

Any kind of control (psionic or otherwise) that affects/tampers with a persons free will is an effect of the existence of the concept of Anti-life.

How can a mere gem affect a being who has already deciphered the 1st cause for the existence of such things? That's the whole point of the knowledge the understanding is much deeper than the effect (artifacts, gems etc) Mind control, soul control etc all exist because of the concept of Anti-life.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Darkseid doesn't have the ale for this thread.

This is current/recent iterations, and he has been the god of anti-life from the beginning.

Originally posted by Allankles
The NG deal with things similar to the IG at a first cause level. The gems are only the "effect" (they are non essential to the existence of certain forces), Anti-life is a cause (essential to the existence of certain universal forces). The Source was the first cause, and by understanding what came before, the NG can control any energy or force. (e.g. the 7 imperishable treasures )
You sound like Aristotle. And I don't like that. uhuh

But no, the gems are not only the 'effect.' The Infinity Being was the first thing in existence. Those gems are pieces of her power. The Mind Gem grants total control over the mind, the Space Gem over space, etc. The Soul Gem is no different.

There's also nothing stopping Magus from sucking Darkseid into Soul World.

Originally posted by Allankles
This is current/recent iterations, and he has been the god of anti-life from the beginning. What did Ds due on panel in fc to prove he can use the ale to dominate someone into submission? Morrison went on to explain how much Darkseid exaggerates his role in all of this. He is full of himself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You sound like Aristotle. And I don't like that. uhuh

But no, the gems are not only the 'effect.' The Infinity Being was the first thing in existence. Those gems are pieces of her power. The Mind Gem grants total control over the mind, the Space Gem over space, etc. The Soul Gem is no different.

There's also nothing stopping Magus from sucking Darkseid into Soul World.

The gems are physical representations of essential concepts already in existence, they are not essential to the existence of the concepts that formed them.

DS can also bfr people to oblivion or enclose them in the life-trap.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What did Ds due on panel in fc to prove he can use the ale to dominate someone into submission? Morrison went on to explain how much Darkseid exaggerates his role in all of this. He is full of himself.

Anti-life is a concept the anti-thesis of life, capable of disproving the very concept of free will. These a Morrison's own words btw. Mister Miracle (Shilo Norman) is one of the few beings capable of resisting anti-life, which is why New Genesis chose him as a weapon against Apokolips. Miracle is unique and he's the avatar of the god of freedom anyway (Scott Free).

Peak Magus is with the incomplete IG

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Peak Magus is with the incomplete IG
Well...how could that've slipped my mind...

Originally posted by Allankles
The gems are physical representations of essential concepts already in existence, they are not essential to the existence of the concepts that formed them.

So if Orion dies, War dies? If Darkseid dies, Evil dies? If Scott Free dies, Freedom dies?

Nope.

DS's control over anti-life is not superior to Magus' control of the Soul Gem.

Originally posted by Allankles
Anti-life is a concept the anti-thesis of life, capable of disproving the very concept of free will. These a Morrison's own words btw. Mister Miracle (Shilo Norman) is one of the few beings capable of resisting anti-life, which is why New Genesis chose him as a weapon against Apokolips. Miracle is unique and he's the avatar of the god of freedom anyway (Scott Free). Do you ever answer a question? Ever?

You just spout nonsense. How does the ale help him here? What did he do with it in fc?

Originally posted by Enyalus
So if Orion dies, War dies? If Darkseid dies, Evil dies? If Scott Free dies, Freedom dies?

Nope.

DS's control over anti-life is not superior to Magus' control of the Soul Gem.

Originally posted by Enyalus
So if Orion dies, War dies? If Darkseid dies, Evil dies? If Scott Free dies, Freedom dies?

Nope.

DS's control over anti-life is not superior to Magus' control of the Soul Gem.

Orion is the god of the fight not war par se, and his death affected the heroes effectiveness in combat. Free had an avatar Shilo Norman and Norman's death would herald the end of freedom (so yes freedom would die in a sense), remember he had possession of the life equation and possessed the knowledge on how to protect against anti-life.

Difference is Anti-life is a first cause and the gem isn't. The gem can also be taken away through physical means.

Originally posted by Allankles
Orion is the god of the fight not war par se, and his death affected the heroes effectiveness in combat. Free had an avatar Shilo Norman and Norman's death would herald the end of freedom (so yes freedom would die in a sense), remember he had possession of the life equation and possessed the knowledge on how to protect against anti-life.

Difference is Anti-life is a first cause and the gem isn't. The gem can also be taken away through physical means. The gem has total mastery over souls. Ds doesn't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Do you ever answer a question? Ever?

You just spout nonsense. How does the ale help him here? What did he do with it in fc?

You're the one who keeps saying you've read these comics, so I wonder why I have to explain things to you.

I already answered your question (according to the expectation that you've read the comic 7 soldiers to FC), in Morrison's continuity DS could infect people with the equation by simply whispering it to them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The gem has total mastery over souls. Ds doesn't.

Hardly seeing as people have resisted Magus without any special immunity. And the ALE enslaves souls by the by.

Originally posted by Allankles
You're the one who keeps saying you've read these comics, so I wonder why I have to explain things to you.

I already answered your question (according to the expectation that you've read the comic 7 soldiers to FC), in Morrison's continuity DS could infect people with the equation by simply whispering it to them. Why didn't he stop Batman? He spoke to him. Why didn't he tell him to stop? Looks like your theory is just an off panel theory of yours.

Originally posted by Allankles
Hardly seeing as people have resisted Magus without any special immunity. And the ALE enslaves souls by the by. All kinds of people resisted the ale. All kinds of people can't resist the soul gem. Mastery over souls unlike Ds.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why didn't he stop Batman? He spoke to him. Why didn't he tell him to stop? Looks like your theory is just an off panel theory of yours.

I don't remember him whispering the equation to Bats. And I've already told you he infected people with the ALE by whispering the equation to them in the same Morrison continuity. How is that a theory?

Originally posted by quanchi112
All kinds of people resisted the ale. All kinds of people can't resist the soul gem. Mastery over souls unlike Ds.

Who are these all kinds of people? Nix Uotan a Monitor, the avatar of freedom (Shilo Norman) and an insane and broken Metron. And the soul gem can be resisted with will power. And what does it matter? the ALE dictates the nature of such things.

Originally posted by Allankles
Hardly seeing as people have resisted Magus without any special immunity. And the ALE enslaves souls by the by.
Who resisted Afro-Magus?

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't remember him whispering the equation to Bats. And I've already told you he infected people with the ALE by whispering the equation to them in the same Morrison continuity. How is that a theory? Why wouldn't he whisper it to save his life? The problem is in the comic Ds isn't portrayed how you make him out to be. Originally posted by Allankles
Who are these all kinds of people? Nix Uotan a Monitor, the avatar of freedom (Shilo Norman) and an insane and broken Metron. And the soul gem can be resisted with will power. And what does it matter? the ALE dictates the nature of such things. Normal people resisted. Can you cite one example of someone resisting the soul gem through will power?

I think you are making things up again.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why wouldn't he whisper it to save his life? The problem is in the comic Ds isn't portrayed how you make him out to be. Normal people resisted. Can you cite one example of someone resisting the soul gem through will power?

I think you are making things up again.

You're asking a dumb question e.g. "Why didn't Magus control all the heroes souls in the Infinity War?" DS hit Bats with the OS, and he was about to do the same to Supes before the Black Racer intervened.

Which normal person has resisted the ALE? Nix Uotan is a Monitor, his race is only affected by "story" through the Bleed and he may well have resisted because he became mortal again and was no longer directly infected by DS's story.

Metron and Mister Miracle possess the life equation (the anti- ALE), with Mister Miracle also being the avatar of freedom.

Thanos resisted Magus in the infinity war without any powerup or special immunity.

Originally posted by Allankles
You're asking a dumb question e.g. "Why didn't Magus control all the heroes souls in the Infinity War?" DS hit Bats with the OS, and he was about to do the same to Supes before the Black Racer intervened.

Which normal person has resisted the ALE? Nix Uotan is a Monitor, his race is only affected by "story" through the Bleed and he may well have resisted because he became mortal again and was no longer directly infected by DS's story.

Metron and Mister Miracle possess the life equation (the anti- ALE), with Mister Miracle also being the avatar of freedom.

Thanos resisted Magus in the infinity war without any powerup or special immunity. Wrong Magus. Did you know there were two? I mean did ya?


Magus never attempted using the soul gem on Thanos during the infinity war. I tseems you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Scan showing people resisting anti- life. Looks like I'm right once again. All you have to do is be wired differently.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

Magus definitely qualifies as being 'wired differently.'

Originally posted by Enyalus
Magus definitely qualifies as being 'wired differently.' As do many others. Ale was downgraded.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Wrong Magus. Did you know there were two? I mean did ya?


Magus never attempted using the soul gem on Thanos during the infinity war. I tseems you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

That's the Magus with the incomplete gauntlet (Warlocks twin peak). Do you have the scans, I could have sworn he had 5 or so of the gems when he fought Thanos.

Also there are characters who've resisted the soul gem directly (Count Abyss) with magic etc. The soul gem isn't insurmountable, and it would be irrelevant to a being with mastery of the concepts that give rise to such things.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Scan showing people resisting anti- life. Looks like I'm right once again. All you have to do is be wired differently.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

That's Metron in the wheel chair, asking Nix Uotan (whom he probably doesn't know) why he's special. Metron in Morrison's continuity had the life equation and helped Shilo Norman unlock the knowledge of the life equation hidden in his own mind. The other being is an unknown, there's a theory that he was Highfather, but Morisson has stated only Metron survived the war in heaven.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's the Magus with the incomplete gauntlet (Warlocks twin peak). Do you have the scans, I could have sworn he had 5 or so of the gems when he fought Thanos.

Yes.

Originally posted by Allankles
Also there are characters who've resisted the soul gem directly (Count Abyss) with magic etc.

Holy shit, nice reference.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Magus definitely qualifies as being 'wired differently.'

Not differently enough. Uotan is a mortal Monitor no longer affected by story. And Metron has the life equation. Not to mention the motherbox which he unlocked with the number of God.

That's why I asked Quan who are these normal people that could resist the ALE, there are none.

Originally posted by Allankles
Not differently enough. Uotan is a mortal Monitor no longer affected by story. And Metron has the life equation. Not to mention the motherbox which he unlocked with the number of God.

That's why I asked Quan who are these normal people that could resist the ALE, there are none.

Metron says, 'All the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different.'

He includes crazy people in that, and he also makes it sound like a lot of people, by saying 'all.'

Magus is extremely evil, and thinks of himself as a God...controlling a thousand worlds via brute force. He definitely counts.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Metron says, 'All the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different.'

He includes crazy people in that, and he also makes it sound like a lot of people, by saying 'all.'

Magus is extremely evil, and thinks of himself as a God...controlling a thousand worlds via brute force. He definitely counts.

Well it really comes down to interpretation.

Count abyss had no soul, that's why he was able resist the SG

and thanos bowed to the magus via the power of the soul,mind,power gems.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Count abyss had no soul, that's why he was able resist the SG

and thanos bowed to the magus via the power of the soul,mind,power gems.

Those were his minions. Abyss has a soul he just has enough magic to turn the gems against their users.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's the Magus with the incomplete gauntlet (Warlocks twin peak). Do you have the scans, I could have sworn he had 5 or so of the gems when he fought Thanos.

Also there are characters who've resisted the soul gem directly (Count Abyss) with magic etc. The soul gem isn't insurmountable, and it would be irrelevant to a being with mastery of the concepts that give rise to such things. Magus at his peak is the afro magus. The one with the incomplete ig is spite.

Thanos didn't defeat Magus. Did you even read the story?

Did count abyss resist it by will power alone like you said?

Originally posted by Allankles
That's Metron in the wheel chair, asking Nix Uotan (whom he probably doesn't know) why he's special. Metron in Morrison's continuity had the life equation and helped Shilo Norman unlock the knowledge of the life equation hidden in his own mind. The other being is an unknown, there's a theory that he was Highfather, but Morisson has stated only Metron survived the war in heaven. People were taken here before the were dissected. It's stated right on panel.

Many can resist the ale and you still don't have Ds using it like he did in death of the new gods. It has been downgraded.

Originally posted by Allankles
Well it really comes down to interpretation. No, it states it plain as day. You can refuse it and create your own theories like you always do, but that doesn't change it one bit.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Magus at his peak is the afro magus. The one with the incomplete ig is spite.

Thanos didn't defeat Magus. Did you even read the story?

Did count abyss resist it by will power alone like you said?

Who said anything about defeating him?

Afro Magus is irrelevant, point is the gems can be turned on their users, and the Soul gem is irrelevant when you have mastery of the concepts that allow it to exist (1st cause).

Who resisted the ALE, one way or another, doesn't change the fact that you're not controlling the someone that's mastered the concept. And DS can whisper the ALE to infect others in Morrison's continuity (which is a slight variation from DOTNG).

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it states it plain as day. You can refuse it and create your own theories like you always do, but that doesn't change it one bit.

I guess you have to be crazy to resist the ALE then. Point is Anti-life is a 1st cause, a soul gem isn't going to affect DS.

Originally posted by Allankles
Who said anything about defeating him?

Afro Magus is irrelevant, point is the gems can be turned on their users, and the Soul gem is irrelevant when you have mastery of the concepts that allow it to exist (1st cause).

Who resisted the ALE, one way or another, doesn't change the fact that you're not controlling the someone that's mastered the concept. And DS can whisper the ALE to infect others in Morrison's continuity (which is a slight variation from DOTNG). No, the ale has been changed and it now cannot even affect insane people and those "wired differently."

Show someone turning a gem on it's own user. You just make claims you cannot back up while I continually show you up even when it comes to Darkseid.


Soul gem doesn't fail while the ale fails. Ds wasn't seen whispering anything to anyone including Superman and Batman.

Originally posted by Allankles
I guess you have to be crazy to resist the ALE then. Point is Anti-life is a 1st cause, a soul gem isn't going to affect DS. Why isn't the soul gem going to affect Darkseid? Provide proof not another nonsensical response.

Originally posted by Allankles
Those were his minions. Abyss has a soul he just has enough magic to turn the gems against their users. More lies and mistruths. Plain as day is Abyss losing his soul and gaining power.


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/WarlockandtheInfinityWatch-31-14.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/WarlockandtheInfinityWatch-31-1516.jpg

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, the ale has been changed and it now cannot even affect insane people and those "wired differently."

Show someone turning a gem on it's own user. You just make claims you cannot back up while I continually show you up even when it comes to Darkseid.


Soul gem doesn't fail while the ale fails. Ds wasn't seen whispering anything to anyone including Superman and Batman.

Count abyys was able to use the magic given to him by his god to manipulate the powers of the gems and turn them on their users the infinity guardians/watch. Abyss has a soul the only thing that is unique with it is that he gave up his rights to it i.e. if he reclaims the rights to his soul he loses his powers.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Why isn't the soul gem going to affect Darkseid? Provide proof not another nonsensical response.

Why should I repeat myself? Or don't you have any idea what the ALE is? It's pointless to argue with you if you don't even understand the ALE.

I already adressed this. The soul gem is only the effect of the something that came before. In terms of any force or power that overrides free will, what came before, was the concept of Anti-life.

Which in turn came from the Source (the ultimate concept).

In Marvel this first cause was a dying god, who in turn may have been created by another concept.

Anti-life is the reason why mind/soul control or any other form of manipulation that affects free will exists, it is the concept that gives rise to such forces.

Anything that affects free will is born of the concept of Anti-life (one of the many concepts originating from the Source).

Originally posted by Allankles
Count abyys was able to use the magic given to him by his god to manipulate the powers of the gems and turn them on their users the infinity guardians/watch. Abyss has a soul the only thing that is unique with it is that he gave up his rights to it i.e. if he reclaims the rights to his soul he loses his powers. He had a soul but gave it up. It's right on the scan. if he had a soul and if he went one on one with Warlock he could use it on him to absorb it. Show me one instance where someone resisted the soul gem straight up due to willpower. You made that claim.

Originally posted by Allankles
Why should I repeat myself? Or don't you have any idea what the ALE is? It's pointless argue with you if you don't even understand the ALE. I understand the ale completely. It's you that can't even comprehend simple scans from fc. You keep claiming it can;t affect Ds. Show me a scan proving your point. I back up all my stances with scans while you don't.

Right...

Soul Gem controls souls. DS has a soul.

Ergo, Soul Gem controls DS.

Simple.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Right...

Soul Gem controls souls. DS has a soul.

Ergo, Soul Gem controls DS.

Simple. Exactly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I understand the ale completely. It's you that can't even comprehend simple scans from fc. You keep claiming it can;t affect Ds. Show me a scan proving your point. I back up all my stances with scans while you don't.

If you understood it we wouldn't be having this argument.

The ALE is a cosmic first-cause blue print on the nature of the complete absence of freedom. It seems to be too deep for you to comprehend but in truth it's very simple. A god weapon capable of enslaving souls and disproving the very concept of free will. Cause and effect.

It's more like the mind gem and soul gem melded into one.

Originally posted by Allankles
A god weapon capable of enslaving souls. Cause and effect.

You've just described the Soul Gem.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You've just described the Soul Gem.

The only similarity between them is that one basic effect. The ALE is the god of the soul gem and mind gem (in other words).

An intangible, unimaginable concept.

Originally posted by Allankles
The only similarity between them is that one basic effect. The ALE is the god of the soul gem and mind gem (in other words).

An intangible, unimaginable concept.
The Soul Gem doesn't have the ALE's limitations. It wouldn't have failed to affect, say, Turpin.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Soul Gem doesn't have the ALE's limitations. It wouldn't have failed to affect, say, Turpin.

Hey I'm just schooling people on the differences between a concept and physical artifact. The former is a cause the latter merely an effect.

DS possessed Turpin's body.

Originally posted by Allankles
Hey I'm just schooling people on the differences between a concept and physical artifact. The former is a cause the latter merely an effect.
No, I get what you're saying. But the Gem is a physical artifact as well as the primal embodiment of that concept. The Soul Gem was the first soul-like object in existence. The Space Gem was the first space-like object in existence. Etc. All because of the Infinity Being (Nemesis) being the first thing in existence and those beings pieces of its power. They're the same IMO, except that the Soul Gem has been shown to be greater by way of feats.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Soul Gem has been shown to be greater by way of feats.

Al that matters. End of story.

Originally posted by Allankles
If you understood it we wouldn't be having this argument.

The ALE is a cosmic first-cause blue print on the nature of the complete absence of freedom. It seems to be too deep for you to comprehend but in truth it's very simple. A god weapon capable of enslaving souls and disproving the very concept of free will. Cause and effect.

It's more like the mind gem and soul gem melded into one. It is nothing like the mind or the soul gem. Normal people can resist it and it took time for Ds to take over Turpin. Soul gem has total mastery while the ale doesn't affect a variety of people.Originally posted by Allankles
Hey I'm just schooling people on the differences between a concept and physical artifact. The former is a cause the latter merely an effect.

DS possessed Turpin's body. No, you aren't especially when this physical artifact has total mastery and your ale doesn't. Pretty cut and dry.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No, I get what you're saying. But the Gem is a physical artifact as well as the primal embodiment of that concept. The Soul Gem was the first soul-like object in existence. The Space Gem was the first space-like object in existence. Etc. All because of the Infinity Being (Nemesis) being the first thing in existence and those beings pieces of its power. They're the same IMO, except that the Soul Gem has been shown to be greater by way of feats.

Problem with that is, there's no reason why a being who's mastered the ALE would be affected by a soul or mind gem. Complete knowledge of the concept of Anti-life automatically makes you immune to any influence that tampers with free will.

Resistance of the ALE has nothing to do with power levels one way or the other, its a concept not a power up.

Originally posted by Allankles
Problem with that is, there's no reason why a being who's mastered the ALE would be affected by a soul or mind gem. Complete knowledge of the concept of Anti-life automatically makes you immune to any influence that tampers with free will.

Resistance of the ALE has nothing to do with power levels one way or the other, its a concept not a power up. There is absolutely no reason to think that someone who mastered the ale can resist someone with total mastery over the soul. The soul gem represents total mastery over one's soul. You seem to be fixated on the fact that it's a gem. That has nothing to do with anything.

The ale has shown limitations in dealing with ordinary people.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It is nothing like the mind or the soul gem. Normal people can resist it and it took time for Ds to take over Turpin.

That's because the ALE is a concept and not magic its truth needs to be processed by its victim.

And humans in DC possess this concept in the deepest recesses of their mind, humans are actually not very normal in DC. And Earth 0 is the foundation stone of creation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
There is absolutely no reason to think that someone who mastered the ale can resist someone with total mastery over the soul. The soul gem represents total mastery over one's soul. You seem to be fixated on the fact that it's a gem. That has nothing to do with anything.

The ale has shown limitations in dealing with ordinary people.

You're the one fixated on "mastery of the soul", when the ALE is the concept that allows for the existence of such magic or any force that takes away freedom.

Originally posted by Allankles
Problem with that is, there's no reason why a being who's mastered the ALE would be affected by a soul or mind gem. Complete knowledge of the concept of Anti-life automatically makes you immune to any influence that tampers with free will.

Yeah. That makes sense as a simple level. But DS still has a soul. And the knowledge of Anti-Life is clearly in his head/mind. IMO, the Soul Gem simply bipasses whatever protection the ALE affords him (having knowledge of the mental concept of Free Will) and subverts his soul instead.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah. That makes sense as a simple level. But DS still has a soul. And the knowledge of Anti-Life is clearly in his head/mind. IMO, the Soul Gem simply bipasses whatever protection the ALE affords him (having knowledge of the mental concept of Free Will) and subverts his soul instead.

But that just makes it a force, the ALE deals with what makes such a force exist in the first place.

Originally posted by Allankles
That's because the ALE is a concept and not magic its truth needs to be processed by its victim.

And humans in DC possess this concept in the deepest recesses of their mind, humans are actually not very normal in DC. And Earth 0 is the foundation stone of creation. They are normal human beings and they can resist it. You can't just resist the soul gem at all. Warlock took on Mephisto in his own realm with it.


The soul gem works on you if you have a soul while the ale might work on you and it might not.

Originally posted by Allankles
You're the one fixated on "mastery of the soul", when the ALE is the concept that allows for the existence of such magic or any force that takes away freedom. It doesn't always take away freedom and you can jam the signal. This shouldn't be news to you. Do you have any proof that Ds can resist this?

Allankles there is no point with quanch, you'll have better luck convincing a death and blind person.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It doesn't always take away freedom and you can jam the signal. This shouldn't be news to you. Do you have any proof that Ds can resist this?

It is a "concept". No need for feats

Originally posted by supremthor
Allankles there is no point with quanch, you'll have better luck convincing a death and blind person. You could have just said a mute. If he shows me something that constitutes as proof I am open to changing my mind. I put up scans proving it can be resisted. So far, I am the only one putting up scans to prove my points in this particular thread.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It doesn't always take away freedom and you can jam the signal. This shouldn't be news to you. Do you have any proof that Ds can resist this?

Proof? What would qualify as proof to you? In DOTNG with only partial knowledge of the ALE DS was able to resist Miracle, Miracle threatens to make him wish he was dead and it suggested DS could resist this as well.

Originally posted by Naija boy
It is a "concept". No need for feats

Yeah that affects all the forces of mind control and soul control. Not to mention it can only be resisted through motherbox (for non-crazy beings, apparently) or anyone who doesn't have the life equation.

Originally posted by Allankles
Yeah that affects all the forces of mind control and soul control. Not to mention it can only be resisted through motherbox (for non-crazy beings, apparently) or anyone who doesn't have the life equation.

which doesnt have the feats to match up with the soul gem. but heh, no need for feats anyways

Originally posted by quanchi112
They are normal human beings and they can resist it. You can't just resist the soul gem at all. Warlock took on Mephisto in his own realm with it.


The soul gem works on you if you have a soul while the ale might work on you and it might not.

The soul gem is magic at an "infinite power level" the ALE is the concept that allows for such "infinite" magical forces to exist.

There are many fictional stories that deal with cause and effect. The ALE's whole is described as unimaginable, as it is the very concept that allows for the existence of such powers.

Originally posted by Naija boy
which doesnt have the feats to match up with the soul gem. but heh, no need for feats anyways

So what are the soul gems individual feats? Without the other gems involved?

Originally posted by Allankles
Proof? What would qualify as proof to you? In DOTNG with only partial knowledge of the ALE DS was able to resist Miracle, Miracle threatens to make him wish he was dead and it suggested DS could resist this as well. No, he wasn't able to resist him. Ds did his bidding and in fc the ale was downgraded. I can put up the scan if you need to be reminded that Ds couldn't resist it.

Originally posted by Allankles
The soul gem is magic at an "infinite power level" the ALE is the concept that allows for such "infinite" magical forces to exist.

There are many fictional stories that deal with cause and effect. The ALE's whole is described as unimaginable, as it is the very concept that allows for the existence of such powers. No, it isn't. It's the being that shaped the marvel u broken down into gems. The soul gem gives it total mastery over souls while the ale doesn't. People who are "wired differently" can't resist the soul gem while they can resist the ale. You can also break it's signal.

This being was infinity and formed the universe. It is also backed up on panel as being exactly as I stated. You haven't proven anything as to how Darkseid can resist this thus far.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, he wasn't able to resist him. Ds did his bidding and in fc the ale was downgraded. I can put up the scan if you need to be reminded that Ds couldn't resist it.

He was told to stand still but Miracle couldn't do anymore than that given DS' partial knowledge of the ALE, post it if you like (I know you want to). I think it's a waste of time personally.

The ALE wasn't downgraded it was better portrayed without the cheezy magic Starlin threw into it with CO and DOTNG. If the Source is unseen it makes sense the ALE (coming from it) would also be intangible and unimaginable.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it isn't. It's the being that shaped the marvel u broken down into gems. The soul gem gives it total mastery over souls while the ale doesn't. People who are "wired differently" can't resist the soul gem while they can resist the ale. You can also break it's signal.

This being was infinity and formed the universe. It is also backed up on panel as being exactly as I stated. You haven't proven anything as to how Darkseid can resist this thus far.

Infinity doesn't have anything on the Source, and in truth it was non essential to the continuation of existence in the MU. The source is uncontainable and indivisible and is essential to all existence.

We don't need to go there.

I've already explained why the ALE makes him immune to any kind of forced manipulation of his freedom, no one likes to repeat themselves.

Originally posted by Allankles
He was told to stand still but Miracle couldn't do anymore than that given DS' partial knowledge of the ALE, post it if you like (I know you want to). I think it's a waste of time personally.

The ALE wasn't downgraded it was better portrayed without the cheezy magic Starlin threw into it with CO and DOTNG. If the Source is unseen it makes sense the ALE (coming from it) would also be intangible and unimaginable. He could have taken Ds's life though if he wanted to.


The al was downgraded because pre fc anything stated you had to listen too. In fc people could resist it and Darkseid possessed it yet didn't simply own his opponents with his words.

Originally posted by Allankles
Infinity doesn't have anything on the Source, and in truth it was non essential to the continuation of existence in the MU. The source is uncontainable and indivisible and is essential to all existence.

We don't need to go there.

I've already explained why the ALE makes him immune to any kind of forced manipulation of his freedom, no one likes to repeat themselves. That's your opinion. Infinity when it separated became the marvel u. The Source was bested by Darkseid and clever planning.

The soul gem just takes his soul. He can he resist his soul being taken?

Originally posted by quanchi112
He could have taken Ds's life though if he wanted to.


The al was downgraded because pre fc anything stated you had to listen too. In fc people could resist it and Darkseid possessed it yet didn't simply own his opponents with his words.

I can only think of the Batman incident when he could have whispered the ALE from the get go, but these are stories, you could make the same argument for a lot of other stories, in the end its pointless.

DS had this new form of the Omega Force the Omega Sanction (the life-trap) which he uses quite a bit in Morrison's continuity.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That's your opinion. Infinity when it separated became the marvel u. The Source was bested by Darkseid and clever planning.

The soul gem just takes his soul. He can he resist his soul being taken?

The Source entity wasn't the Source.

If BFRing him is all it's about then it works both ways.

Originally posted by Allankles
Infinity doesn't have anything on the Source,

You saying this just proves how biased you are. The Infinity Being created the Marvel Universe. How you can say that its somehow lesser than the Source is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You saying this just proves how biased you are. The Infinity Being created the Marvel Universe. How you can say that its somehow lesser than the Source is ridiculous.

Are u kidding? this is the same guy who was trying to argue Takion vs Inbetweener based on the fact that "he is an avatar of the ultimate concept" lol.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Are u kidding? this is the same guy who was trying to argue Takion vs Inbetweener based on the fact that "he is an avatar of the ultimate concept" lol.
Ah, ****. Didn't know that. I'm a Takion fanboy, but the In-Betweener...Hell, he'd summon Stayne and be done with it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You saying this just proves how biased you are. The Infinity Being created the Marvel Universe. How you can say that its somehow lesser than the Source is ridiculous.

The cause that ceases to be, he cannot be like the Source. I'm not talking about creation powers (fiction is fiction after all).

Originally posted by Allankles
The cause that ceases to be, he cannot be like the Source. I'm not talking about creation powers (fiction is fiction after all).
He was the cause of the Marvel Universe (prior to retcon...afterwards thats the Alien Entity).

In DC that's not even The Source. That's The Presence.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Are u kidding? this is the same guy who was trying to argue Takion vs Inbetweener based on the fact that "he is an avatar of the ultimate concept" lol.

A concept refers to what came before . The ALE was there before mind control or soul control the Source was there before energy.

The source itself is the origin of the concept of energy and Takion is its avatar. Takion thus can manipulate any force or energy, the moment he became Takion he could touch "all the interlocking webs of power & forces that formed the universe".

The only thing going for I-B are combat feats, a thing that doesn't even apply to Takion. Only the Source and beings/and powers directly of the Source have been shown to affect Takion.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He was the cause of the Marvel Universe (prior to retcon...afterwards thats the Alien Entity).

In DC that's not even The Source. That's The Presence.

The Source and The Presence could be one and the same, no clear distinction has ever been provided as the Source is usually kept out of mainline continuity. The Source Wall is equivalent to the gates of the heaven of heavens and (according to FC) separates the multiverse from the overvoid.

According to Kirby The Source was simply the NG name of the first cause force that gave rise to existence. It's more of an alias imo.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Source and The Presence could be one and the same, no clear distinction has ever been provided as the Source is usually kept out of mainline continuity. The Source Wall is equivalent to the gates of the heaven of heavens and (according to FC) separates the multiverse from the overvoid.
The Primal Monitor seems like DC's current God, to me.

And where were you when I was arguing for Takion over Monarch but no one else was??

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Primal Monitor seems like DC's current God, to me.

And where were you when I was arguing for Takion over Monarch but no one else was??

The Primal Monitor was bigger than the multiverse but he existed within the overvoid iirc. And didn't the Primal Monitor get divided and split into the race of hyper gods called Monitors, after he was infected by story?

I wish I'd seen it, looking at the big picture Takion should be above Monarch.

Originally posted by Allankles
The Primal Monitor was bigger than the multiverse but he existed within the overvoid iirc. And didn't the Primal Monitor get divided and split into the race of hyper gods called Monitors, after he was infected by story?

No, I think the Primal Monitor's consciousness is the overvoid....err, maybe.

*looks at Superman Beyond #1 tomorrow*

Originally posted by Allankles
A concept refers to what came before . The ALE was there before mind control or soul control the Source was there before energy.

The source itself is the origin of the concept of energy and Takion is its avatar. Takion thus can manipulate any force or energy, the moment he became Takion he could touch "all the interlocking webs of power & forces that formed the universe".

The only thing going for I-B are combat feats, a thing that doesn't even apply to Takion. Only the Source and beings/and powers directly of the Source have been shown to affect Takion.

I know the meaning of a concept. And that in itself is absoultely irrelevant here. Nonsensical rationalizations cannot replace on panel feats and accomplishments no matter how u try to play it.

The takion thing is also a load of nonsense. Takion being an "avatar of the source" does not warrant a victory over an abstract. That is simply ridiculous. Going by such foolish logic we can put Takion up against anyone and simply say "oh well he is an avatar of the source" so he wins. Its akin to saying oh "Spetre is the wrath of God" so he wins Show me his feats and accomplishments that warrant a victory not some useless conjecture.

Who are the high level beings that Takion has fought who have been unable to affect him?

Originally posted by Naija boy
I know the meaning of a concept. And that in itself is absoultely irrelevant here. Nonsensical rationalizations cannot replace on panel feats and accomplishments no matter how u try to play it.

The takion thing is also a load of nonsense. Takion being an "avatar of the source" does not warrant a victory over an abstract. That is simply ridiculous. Going by such foolish logic we can put Takion up against anyone and simply say "oh well he is an avatar of the source" so he wins. Its akin to saying oh "Spetre is the wrath of God" so he wins Show me his feats and accomplishments that warrant a victory not some useless conjecture.

Who are the high level beings that Takion has fought who have been unable to affect him?

I asked you what are the soul gems feats (without the other ifninity gems involvement), because the ALE has had a long history.

Takion is abstract as well as are the New Gods, that's the whole point of bringing up the Source.

No being has affected Takion except if the Source has allowed such a thing to happen (IM). Stayne (the only other being) was also an avatar of the source, and Takion defeated her in the end.

That's why I said Takion isn't a good character to throw in debates as he's the avatar of the ultimate concept.

Originally posted by Allankles
Takion is abstract as well as are the New Gods, that's the whole point of bringing up the Source.

No being has affected Takion except if the Source has allowed such a thing to happen. Stayne (the only other being) was also an avatar of the source, and Takion defeated her in the end.

lmao. more nonsense. Not "abstract" in concept alone. Im not referring to an "abstract" like Orion who is also a top tier. Or an "abstract" like Darkseid that struggles with superman. Im referring to abstract as a powerlevel. Your attempts to elevate chraacters with no feats even close to warrant putting them there are just laughable.

As i asked before(and please try to answer the question this time), what high level beings tried to affect Takion and failed?

And saying he is the "avatar of the ultimate concept" is simply an extremely pitiful attempt to dodge the need to bring up feats. Nothing more. If his being an avatar of the "ultimate concept"(in ur mind at least) was enough to warrant him defeating high level abstracts(in powerlevel) then he should have feats to prove such. But hey, feel free to dodge again. Good thing the forum doesnt buy into this trash as seen by Takions placement at trans.lol

Originally posted by Naija boy
lmao. more nonsense. Not "abstract" in concept alone. Im not referring to an "abstract" like Orion who is also a top tier. Or an "abstract" like Darkseid that struggles with superman. Im referring to abstract as a powerlevel. Your attempts to elevate chraacters with no feats even close to put them there are just laughable.

As i asked before(and please try to answer the question this time), what high level beings tried to affect Takion and failed?

An abstract suggest beyond top tier, Orion as an example has varied portrayals. From being able to defeat S'Ivaa in his true form while getting downplayed in his JLU days. Or providing part of the power to collapse a universe.

Same thing applies with DS but at least he has the avatars excuse; besides, using Supes as an example is not exactly proof of anything. Supes has a history of punching and winning above his weight class.

As far as Takion goes, no being in Genesis was capable of slowing down the god wave and this is inclusive of a 2nd world god.

He is tied to the origin of energy, this puts him at a unique position, quite different to other beings who only have the implied power without the legitimacy to accompany it. The source is what legitimizes Takion he's a focus point for it. They don't call him Takion of the Source for nothing.

Originally posted by Allankles
An abstract suggest beyond top tier, Orion as an example has varied portrayals. From being able to defeat S'Ivaa in his true form while getting downplayed in his JLU days. Or providing part of the power to collapse a universe.


The nonsense knows no bounds. Being an "abstract" does NOT mean he is more than a top tier when all he has are feats showing he is a top tier. Please provide context for the S'ivaa incident (im sure ur lying/misinterpreting/leaving out something) as i seem to remember superman also being involved in that incident. Regardless "Orions true" form is certainly NOT what is normally seen in comics. Also provide context for the "collapsing universe" feat cuz iirc it was definitely not Orion alone.



What legitimate abstract powerlevel beings has supes punched out without any amps/contexts or circumstances surroundin the situation?
Saying "supes normally wins above his weight class" just wont cut it at all.




lol. Is English a problem or something? I have asked aa simple question in as clear language as i can and instead u decide to dodge it and tell me more "Takion of Source" nonsense. I will ask again WHAT HIGH LEVEL BEINGS HAVE TRIED TO AFFECT TAKION AND FAILED? Ur originally laughable efforts to dodge it and replace the answer with conjecture are becoming pitiful. Takion died and only slowed the Godwave for a little period of time. Thats all u have and then expect me to accept ur useless rationalizaions in replacement of feats. lmao. So if i put Takion against someone like Mxy/IG/Eternity u would use the argument "He s Takion of teh source!!" and expect to be taken seriously? Nonsensical no limit fallacy. Get such utter idiocy outta here.

Originally posted by Allankles
An abstract suggest beyond top tier, Orion as an example has varied portrayals. From being able to defeat S'Ivaa in his true form while getting downplayed in his JLU days. Or providing part of the power to collapse a universe.

Same thing applies with DS but at least he has the avatars excuse; besides, using Supes as an example is not exactly proof of anything. Supes has a history of punching and winning above his weight class.

As far as Takion goes, no being in Genesis was capable of slowing down the god wave and this is inclusive of a 2nd world god.

He is tied to the origin of energy, this puts him at a unique position, quite different to other beings who only have the implied power without the legitimacy to accompany it. The source is what legitimizes Takion he's a focus point for it. They don't call him Takion of the Source for nothing.


Allan you crack me up man. He didn't slow down anything he got WTF pwned by the godwave. All the tied to the source's power couldn't help him stop the Godwave... lol. So, name me the beings Taikon has defeated in battle being the he's the will of the source or whatever you called it? Give me the names of who he's defeated? Did you say Taikon was an Abstract along with all the new gods haha lol. Guess that would make Thanos a tier above Abstract cause he'd pwn Orion, Taikon etc etc

Meh...Takion is like Surfer^2.

I dunno that Thanos would beat him...I think not.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Meh...Takion is like Surfer^2.

I dunno that Thanos would beat him...I think not.

Okay... how could he got destroyed by the Godwave rather easily while others "less" then Taikon haven't. Also, name me the other abstracts, Trans and Top Tiers Taikon has beaten?

he said all the New Gods are abstracts and that is a joke. Thanos would beat Orion, DS to name a few and I hardly consider them ALL abstracts lol

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay... how could he got destroyed by the Godwave rather easily while others "less" then Taikon haven't. Also, name me the other abstracts, Trans and Top Tiers Taikon has beaten?

he said all the New Gods are abstracts and that is a joke. Thanos would beat Orion, DS to name a few and I hardly consider them ALL abstracts lol

Yeah, IMO Thanos would beat DS and Orion, too. For trans and higher, Takion's beaten Stayne, an insane Lightray and helped defeat the Sun Eater. Top tiers include owning GL, Flash, and Captain Atom as a noob.

Takion has way too many exotic powers. Time freezing, stepping inbetween time (to appear faster than the Flash, basically), black hole creation, teleportation, top tier energy manipulation, intangibility, changing his own body into - say - anti-matter, gravitational manipulation, expanding the molecules of other beings to dispurse them (Surfer's talked about doing it, Takion actually has), etc.

So, I think Takion would probably beat Thanos. In-Betweener? IB Owns him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Metron says, 'All the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different.'

He includes crazy people in that, and he also makes it sound like a lot of people, by saying 'all.'

Magus is extremely evil, and thinks of himself as a God...controlling a thousand worlds via brute force. He definitely counts.

Yes all the people who can't be effected was right there, what 3 people?? Most of you have no idea what your talking about, nice job Allanklens. btw the Infinity Being/gems was reconned into being made after the MU Big Bang. In the DCU The Source is the reason the Big Bang came about!

Originally posted by kevdude
In the DCU The Source is the reason the Big Bang came about! Per what? Hopefully not this scan:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1589392_s2.jpg

Because that's long outdated (being over 12 years old, and such.)

Originally posted by Galan007
Per what? Hopefully not this scan:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1589392_s2.jpg

Because that's long outdated (being over 12 years old, and such.)

Also in Superman/Batman and every other NG comic. You know that Galan

Originally posted by kevdude
You know that Galan That the Source created the big bang? No I don't know that.

I'd actually like to know what instances you're referring to, where this was specifically stated? (Not that it matters much, because the 'most recent' info still contradicts it.)

Originally posted by Galan007
That the Source created the big bang? No I don't know that.

I'd actually like to know what instances you're referring to, where this was specifically stated? (Not that it matters much, because the 'most recent' info still contradicts it.)

In NG Secret Files 1 shows the history of the NG's and the DCU beginning with The Source creates it, to go along with that scan. In Superman/Batman 41, 42 Desaad sends Superman with Highfathers staff beyond the Beginning and End to where The Source resides, all things are linked to the Source. In DOV tpb talks about the DCU being the product of The Source, The Voice came right after as it sang the universe into existence. What contradicts it? Starlins Synnar?? Most of what I've seen from his writings do not follow DC continuity and are ignored.

Originally posted by kevdude
In NG Secret Files 1 shows the history of the NG's and the DCU beginning with The Source creates it, to go along with that scan. In Superman/Batman 41, 42 Desaad sends Superman with Highfathers staff beyond the Beginning and End to where The Source resides, all things are linked to the Source. In DOV tpb talks about the DCU being the product of The Source, The Voice came right after as it sang the universe into existence. None of those specifically state that the Source created the big bang.

Originally posted by kevdude
What contradicts it? Starlins Synnar?? Yes. And since it's the most recent information, and has yet to be contradicted, it is also the most canonical.

Originally posted by Galan007
None of those specifically state that the Source created the big bang.

Yes. And since it's the most recent information, and has yet to be contradicted, it is also the most canonical.

The scan above shows The Source creating the Big Bang, it was born in the Void and is the void at the same time, it made itself and is God or a very big piece of him.. In NG Secret Files even says The Source creates and is created by the Universe. What do you think the Beginning and End is? You would have to throw out all that we know COIE, IC and FC, ST Great Darkness Saga for Starlins vision to be true, much like his work with NGs in the past and his in DTNG they have been overlooked and ignored.

Originally posted by kevdude
The scan above shows The Source creating the Big Bang,The scan above is over 12 years old, too.

Originally posted by kevdude
You would have to throw out all that we know COIE, IC and FC, ST Great Darkness Saga for Starlins vision to be true, much like his work with NGs in the past and his in DTNG they have been overlooked and ignored. The Source sparking the big bang literally has nothing to do with those series'.

Originally posted by Galan007
The scan above is over 12 yars old, too.

The Source sparking the big bang literally has nothing to do with those series'.

It does not matter if its 12 or 30 years old, it is still canon and treated as such to this very day (even if you count Starlins version). In COIE remember where the Anti-Monitor went? IC is linked with COIE. And FC is the end of the Fourth World and bringing about the Fifth World something we know The Source made happen. All of those storys are about trying to understand God more.

Originally posted by kevdude
It does not matter if its 12 or 30 years old, it is still canon and treated as such to this very day (even if you count Starlins version). In COIE remember where the Anti-Monitor went? IC is linked with COIE. And FC is the end of the Fourth World and bringing about the Fifth World something we know The Source made happen. All of those storys are about trying to understand God more. facepalm

Originally posted by kevdude
Yes all the people who can't be effected was right there, what 3 people??

It was clearly more than just those three people, because as Metron points out - others had already been dissected. 3 billion people were affected by the ALE. That means roughly 3 billion people were not.

The Soul Gem has a better record than that.

Also, the Infinity Being being retconned has nothing to do with this thread. Peak Magus (unless using the Magus w/ IG) is Afro Magus with the Soul Gem, and back then for that version of the character the IB was still the cause of the MU.

Originally posted by Galan007
facepalm

**** Starlin. That piece of shit wanker needs to get the **** away from DC before he wrecks anything else.

Originally posted by Naija boy
The nonsense knows no bounds. Being an "abstract" does NOT mean he is more than a top tier when all he has are feats showing he is a top tier. Please provide context for the S'ivaa incident (im sure ur lying/misinterpreting/leaving out something) as i seem to remember superman also being involved in that incident. Regardless "Orions true" form is certainly NOT what is normally seen in comics. Also provide context for the "collapsing universe" feat cuz iirc it was definitely not Orion alone.

This overly defensive talk shows a glaringly small capacity to assess things fairly. Abstract suggest above top tier i.e. he's not restrained by a certain combat effective level, all that is irrelevant when we're talking about abstract beings.

Don't come screaming like I don't know Orion's combat level which is merely determined by the physical, cosmic body that evolved in the fourth world, he is a true god, much more than the flesh he wears.

The NG had evolved genetically stable bodies capable enough of housing prime celestials, nothing more.

As far as S'Ivaa goes he was capable of ripping apart the fabric of the cosmos, he was a multiversal threat. And Supes was augmented by the boomtube hence the reason he could contend with S'Ivaa, all this is NG v3.

The collapsed universe was a feat in CO when he collapsed the "anti-life" universe. He arguably provided a 5th of the energy to destroy a reality with his Astro force. Being among 4 other super beings who placed their power to accomplish the feat.

Point is, by current iterations the NG far more than superheroes, and in truth created super heroes (Aurakles) and introduced magic etc etc.

Originally posted by Naija boy
"He s Takion of teh source!!" and expect to be taken seriously? Nonsensical no limit fallacy. Get such utter idiocy outta here.

The rest of your post is completely pointless to thread I don't believe I-B has what it takes to beat Takion. Maybe it is a no-limit fallacy, but there's nothing in the comics that contradicts this estimation. The god-wave in Genesis was threatening the source itself and all reality, Takion was the only being in there capable of slowing it down (and buying the heroes valuable time).

He was also resurrected by the Source after the threat was neutralized. It was also stated that as long as the Source exists (or wishes him to exist) he cannot die.

It's that simple really, anything beyond that must be construed as mere wishful thinking on your part, wanting I-B to be superior, well... tough luck son this is the nature of mythical match-ups.

His connection to the Source once allowed him the capacity to command all reality simply by making contact with the Source Wall.

He's an avatar of the spirit that embodies all things, that's more than just a statement in a character bio.

Originally posted by Allankles
This overly defensive talk shows a glaringly small capacity to assess things fairly. Abstract suggest above top tier i.e. he's not restrained by a certain combat effective level, all that is irrelevant when we're talking about abstract beings.


Assess things fairly? Are u taking urself seriously at all? More nonsense. You pick and choose in posts, blatantly dodge evry single challenge and question posed to u, try to replace feats with conjecture,pitifully attempt to pass off no limit fallacies as arguments and u have the audacity to tell me im not assesing things fairly? . Complete rubbish. Abstract DOES NOT suggest above top tier when the person has feats which indicate his being top tier. Maybe it does in ur little world but it certainly doesnt on KMC. End of story.




What a crock of shit. Orions combat level may be "determined by the physical cosmic body, he evolved on fourth world" but u know what? thats all that is relevant here .Because when Orion is placed in matches people are not referring to his mysterious "true abstract form scared" but rather the regularly seen "genetically stable body capable of housing prime celestials". Thats what matters here and our ur inane rationalizations ant change that. When Orion gets feats in that form to put him on abstract level and not top tier level then ur argument will hold weight. Right now its just silly fanboyish reaching,"nothing more".




So against S'ivaa Orion wasnt in the "physial cosmic body" he uses regularly ? Then once again irrelevant. And also please provide scans to the other incident u are referring to since explaining context is obviously beyond ur ability.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Asses things
Yes Allan does.

Pervert.

Originally posted by Allankles
The rest of your post is completely pointless to thread I don't believe I-B has what it takes to beat Takion. Maybe it is a no-limit fallacy, but there's nothing in the comics that contradicts this estimation. The god-wave in Genesis was threatening the source itself and all reality, Takion was the only being in there capable of slowing it down (and buying the heroes valuable time).


More like there is nothing in comics that supports this estimation. U failed to provide even one feat that indicates such. Takion dying against the godwave is the only feat u even brought up at all. You even admit that ur argument is nothing but a no limit fallacy and still continue toeing the same line? brilliant.



If he cannot die what happened against the godwave? Ressurection isnt even an option on KMC im afraid. Not that it matters anyhow, KO is all thats needed for a KMC victory thankfully.



lol this is probly the irony of the century. An argument admittedly based on no limit fallacy rather than feats and u say im the one practicing wishful thinking? Well the entire forum must be doing the same thing onsidering Takions tier placement. So um,.... tough luck "son"(lmao)



He physically made contact with the source wall? Good thing thats not available in KMC vs matches then.



Irrelevant Gibberish.

Originally posted by Naija boy
What legitimate abstract powerlevel beings has supes punched out without any amps/contexts or circumstances surroundin the situation?
Saying "supes normally wins above his weight class" just wont cut it at all.


Wow! Again with the overly defensive talk. Throughout his history Supes has taken on beings (who on the face of it) are a tier (or several) above him.

He destroys a death god with will power alone, defeats Dominus a reality warper with a Kryptonian scientific technique. Saves the omniverse by his lone some doing some frequency shifting of Earth.

Tanks the magic of the 7 elder gods before defeating them (non of his JL team mates could take thier attack). In Seven caskets defeats the dsiciple who with the power of this 7 elder gods is able to own the other league members except Supes who defeats him, surviving his magical wave and its transmutation effects where people like Zauriel couldn't.

In his pre crisis days he was weakening the Anti- Monitor by himself, smashing planetoids against the universal devourer.

Originally posted by Allankles
In his pre crisis days he was weakening the Anti- Monitor by himself, smashing planetoids against the universal devourer.

That's nothing, Kara nearly killed him while Supes was on the ground bleeding.

Originally posted by Allankles
Wow! Again with the overly defensive talk. Throughout his history Supes has taken on beings (who on the face of it) are a tier (or several) above him.



What do u have against context? I do not deny supes has taken on beings several tiers above him, So have other high heralds like surfer and thor. I asked u to show me examples of who supes has "punched out" (with his power alone) that are several tiers above him. quite simple really.



Using willpower to destroy a death god. nice........and irrelvant. Doesnt help ur case. Defeated dominus with Tvo, nice...........and irrelevant. Saves the ominverse by doing some frequency shifting,nice and once again irrelevant. None of those incidents u mentioned can explain away supes matching up well with Orion or darkseid supposed abstracts in powerlevel using his punches and physical prowess. Not even close. Its akin to me mentioning a bunch of random high feats from silver surfer and thor in which they used different ways to defeat characters or achieve their goals and then trying to use it to justify their victory in another battle in which the fight itself went entirely differently from the aforementioned instances




How did he defeat said elder gods? did he punch them out? Heat vision them? freeze them? Damn whats so hard in explaining the context and exactly how it happened so we can know how it relates to the discussion.

Originally posted by Naija boy


If he cannot die what happened against the godwave? Ressurection isnt even an option on KMC im afraid. Not that it matters anyhow, KO is all thats needed for a KMC victory thankfully.

Ooo lala. He died because the Source was in jeopardy, it was explained in Genesis. The Source itself was dying, and just as this was confirmed, Takion also died. (Genesis # 3)


Originally posted by Naija boy
lol this is probly the irony of the century. An argument admittedly based on no limit fallacy rather than feats and u say im the one practicing wishful thinking? Well the entire forum must be doing the same thing onsidering Takions tier placement. So um,.... tough luck "son"(lmao)

The wishful thinking is in the fact that you want to ignore the comics in regards to this issue. Takion is one with the Source, he only died in Genesis because the Source itself was dying in Genesis. (Genesis 3)

Takion's death was coinciding with the Source's own imminent death in Genesis, quite clearly stated in Genesis 3.



Originally posted by Naija boy
He physically made contact with the source wall? Good thing thats not available in KMC vs matches then.

That was merely stated to emphasize how connected he is the Source, only Takion and Stayne as avatars can achieve this.



Originally posted by Naija boy
Irrelevant

Indeed. Takion vs I-B is completely irrelevant to this thread. If you're feeling up for a debate why not bump that thread?

Originally posted by Naija boy


Using willpower to destroy a death god. nice........and irrelvant. Doesnt help ur case. Defeated dominus with Tvo, nice...........and irrelevant. Saves the ominverse by doing some frequency shifting,nice and once again irrelevant. None of those incidents u mentioned can explain away supes matching up well with Orion or darkseid supposed abstracts in powerlevel using his punches and physical prowess. Not even close. Its akin to me mentioning a bunch of random high feats from silver surfer and thor in which they used different ways to defeat characters or achieve their goals and then trying to use it to justify their victory in another battle in which the fight itself went entirely differently from the aforementioned instances




Originally posted by Naija boy
How did he defeat said elder gods? did he punch them out? Heat vision them? freeze them? Damn whats so hard in explaining the context and exactly how it happened so we can know how it relates to the discussion.

He "punched them out" same way he punched out the Anti-Monitor and wrestled with Asmodel, and punched out Dominus in his avatar state. Same way he punched out the disciple. Hell even the S'Ivaa situation involved punching out. He used an IMP to punch out the shadow moon in a recent JLA. He's punched out of his supposed weight class many times, literally.

Using Supes to prove a "top tier" point is a no no, imo. He punches out of "top tier".

And just to throw in another little wrench in this top tier argument, it was stated in another comic that Supes power comes from harnessing pure entropy. And in another, he's invited to join the quintessence, a group of cosmic beings (skyfathers).

Originally posted by Allankles
Ooo lala. He died because the Source was in jeopardy, it was explained in Genesis. The Source itself was dying, and just as this was confirmed, Takion also died. (Genesis # 3)


We may be getting somewhere afterall, u finally answered a question posed., And if u had decided to read the entire portion of that post u would have seen e explain that the matter of "Takion dying" was irrelevant.



Ignore what comics? Killing Takion as i said isnt needed. KO is enough.




Oh i see, u fet u needed to provide more irrelevant info about connection to the source. lulz



Er, ur the one who started with attempts to justify why Takion wins and proceeded to support it with nothing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's nothing, Kara nearly killed him while Supes was on the ground bleeding.

Don't mess with Supergirl she was actually contending with Granny Goodness in her true form, when Supergirl was no more than the size of a bug compared to Goodness.

She stated that her powers come from her mind, not her muscle which went to explain how she was able to match a superhuman giant god for strength and durability.