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This thread will be used for discussions regarding Superman's various abilities. What he can and cannot do, what are his limits etc.

Everybody is welcomed to comment as long as it does not involve trolling or insults.

Superman - Faster than Lightspeed ?

Yes, he is. Flight speed and movement/combat speed/reaction time. In order to prove it, I could use statements (like reacting in-between nanoseconds, even being flat-out stated that he can achieve lightspeed) but I preffer to use feats. Not only that, but I'm going to use feats of current (post-Infinite Crisis) Superman.

Flight speed

Flying aproximatley 25 light-years in minutes at most. (Vega is 25 light-years from Earth)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanFTLFlight1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanFTLFlight2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanFTLFlight3.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanFTLFlight4.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanFTLFlight5.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanFTLFlight6.jpg

Goes close to the edge of the Andromeda Galaxy and back. It is aproximatley 2.5 million light-years away from us.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_FTLFlightSuperman.jpg

Travels lightyears in a short period of time.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanTravelsLightyears1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanTravelsLightyears2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanTravelsLightyears3.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanTravelsLightyears4.jpg

Combat speed/Perception/Reaction time

Superman is fast enough see, recognize and react at Barry passing by him at superluminal speeds.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanRecognizesBarry1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanRecognizesBarry2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanRecognizesBarry3.jpg

Easily tracking lightspeed signals.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanTrackingSignals.jpg

Superman rebuilds Metropolis in moments.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanReconstructingCity.jpg

Deflects Kryptonite radiation.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanDeflectsRadiation1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanDeflectsRadiation2.jpg

I'd like to bring up T-Vo. It's a rarely used power, but I was wondering if anyone has a complete list of the times it has been used and exactly what it did

It's sort of non canon now. At least Johns has said he never intends to use it, which means it won't be used again for a good many years.

Been wondering this for a long time, and did a few google searches too. What's T-Vo?

Torquasm-Vo, a Kryptonian mental martial art, basically he needs to bring his brain up to a "theta state" in which case he can take a battle from the physical to the mental plane, and combat against reality warpers.

I've never read a story featuring it and only seen a few scans.

So are we all agreed that Superman > light?

Originally posted by Raoul
So are we all agreed that Superman > light?
Travel-wise, yes. Combat wise, no, I don't think its close. Over the speed of sound? Sure.

Originally posted by Raoul
So are we all agreed that Superman > light?

It's undebateable, tbh.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Combat wise, no, I don't think its close. Over the speed of sound? Sure.

ermm

i think he meant your "speed of sound" comment. superman's reactions would be far above that, imo, not just a bit...

Like I said, I'd rather not use statements.

But since he has the feats I posted, I don't need to anyway.

What I'd like to know is, How does Superman move (in flight/combat) FTL?

Pre-crisis Supes did it because writers just ignored the whole lightspeed-limit thing. But since the speedforce was invented to explain how the Flash could bypass relativistic effects as well as the lightspeed limit -- suggesting more recent writers are paying some heed to real-world physics -- what's the explanation given for Superman's FTL (or for that matter, his bypassing relativistic effects)?

Originally posted by Mindship
What I'd like to know is, How does Superman move (in flight/combat) FTL?

Pre-crisis Supes did it because writers just ignored the whole lightspeed-limit thing. But since the speedforce was invented to explain how the Flash could bypass relativistic effects as well as the lightspeed limit -- suggesting more recent writers are paying some heed to real-world physics -- what's the explanation given for Superman's FTL (or for that matter, his bypassing relativistic effects)?

he doesn't always bypass them, which is why within the atmosphere he has to be careful.

it depends on the writer, tbh...

Originally posted by Mindship
What I'd like to know is, How does Superman move (in flight/combat) FTL?

Pre-crisis Supes did it because writers just ignored the whole lightspeed-limit thing. But since the speedforce was invented to explain how the Flash could bypass relativistic effects as well as the lightspeed limit -- suggesting more recent writers are paying some heed to real-world physics -- what's the explanation given for Superman's FTL (or for that matter, his bypassing relativistic effects)?

Similar to anti gravity, in a round about way.

Don't even start me on how a human sized solar battery could create the energies needed to create this mini cosmic inflation. But for all the super geeks out there who only care about Power levels, i suppose its a literary device to get round the problem. Alcubierre drive = Deus ex Machina.

Originally posted by Raoul
he doesn't always bypass them, which is why within the atmosphere he has to be careful.

it depends on the writer, tbh...

IMO, writers scientific credulity is a good gauge for how bad they are.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Similar to anti gravity, in a round about way.

Don't even start me on how a human sized solar battery could create the energies needed to create this mini cosmic inflation. But for all the super geeks out there who only care about Power levels, i suppose its a literary device to get round the problem. Alcubierre drive = Deus ex Machina. If Superman uses any form of space distortion, that's fine with me. I just think it ought to be mentioned, at least once in a while.

Originally posted by Raoul
i think he meant your "speed of sound" comment. superman's reactions would be far above that, imo, not just a bit... Well over the speed of sound could be anything from Mach 1.1-9.9% lightspeed, which is .1% under relativistic speeds, which basically means "near lightspeed" in this context. He never specified exactly how much above lightspeed.

Personally, I think Superman's combat speed is at least in the relativistic area, 10% of lightspeed or more, possibly achieving lightspeed or FTL in this regard. Of course I am not going to prove any of this, being far too lazy.

One thing I would like to ask is exactly how strong is Superman? Obviously above the Quintillion tons range, but generally how strong?

Originally posted by Mindship
If Superman uses any form of space distortion, that's fine with me. I just think it ought to be mentioned, at least once in a while.

I don't think it really has to be as Brynes semi meta physical; Tactile Telekinesis idea has all but been abandoned. Since the early Naughties, Supermans powers have been portrayed as purley physiological rather than psionic; For example Heat Vision is now a photonic/plasma energy release, rather than the telekinetic agitation of molecules, etc. Therefore youre going to have to turn to space time maniplation to explain how the guy can fly. I think Warren Ellis came up with the idea of him having an organ than manipulates the unified field allowing him to refract gravitons. Wolverton suggested that it may link to negative energy manipulation (The stuff that pushes galaxies apart, predicted by Einstien), via a super conductive spinning organ of some kind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Podkletnov

There's no denying he's FTL in combat speed aswell, since he has percieved and reacted at things moving at those speeds, aswell as performed actions which require him to move at those levels.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
One thing I would like to ask is exactly how strong is Superman? Obviously above the Quintillion tons range, but generally how strong?

There's no actual shown limit to his strength, and he is generally as strong as the plot needs him to be. He has high-end feats like lifting the book with an infinte amount of pages or supporting Spectre when he was described as weighting as much as eternity. Then there are things like the Maggedon feat, or him containing a black hole in his hand.

Originally posted by ThunderGodEneru
One thing I would like to ask is exactly how strong is Superman?
That's something I'd like to know, as well. And when I'm talking about strength, I'm talking about lifting feats, or something similar. Not flying really fast with a harness pulling the Earth and not even using your arms.

I've seen him lift ocean liners with no problem. Pyramids, too. Can't recall anything larger than that, really definable unassisted, though.

there's an issue where he effortlessly lifted a mountain... i needs to find that scan...

Originally posted by Raoul
there's an issue where he effortlessly lifted a mountain... i needs to find that scan...
Pre-DoS, is what you're talking about?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pre-DoS, is what you're talking about?

no. this was late 90s, early 00s.

not talking about the john byrne one...

Originally posted by Raoul
no. this was late 90s, early 00s.

not talking about the john byrne one...

Really, i would like to see that.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Really, i would like to see that.

Finally found it. remember it being bigger, but meh, still impressive...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Action792-04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Action792-05.jpg

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
How do we know the pages had mass in its traditional sense, infinity as a very complicated meta physical concept that shouldn't really be used to qunatify physical terms like mass and weight. Zeno's paradox anyone ?

Aw, I'm a big Parmenides fanboy, but Zeno's arguments were pure crap. Aristotle deals with them in the Physics (Book 6, Ch. 8-9).

Don't use a fallacy to debate a fallacy.

Originally posted by Raoul
Finally found it. remember it being bigger, but meh, still impressive...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Action792-04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Action792-05.jpg
The worst part is I have the issue in question. I just didn't remember what you were talking about.

*grumbles about there being too many Supes appearances to keep track of*

Originally posted by Enyalus
The worst part is I have the issue in question. I just didn't remember what you were talking about.

*grumbles about there being too many Supes appearances to keep track of*

try getting them all together in an attempt to make a respect thread. thousands of issues to catalogue... makes my head hurt sometimes...

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
How do we know the pages had mass in its traditional sense, infinity as a very complicated meta physical concept that shouldn't really be used to qunatify physical terms like mass and weight. Zeno's paradox anyone ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno%27s_paradoxes

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanLiftingInfinity.jpg

Superman: Hold on! The strength and stamina of Hercules and Atlas and the power of Zeus! If anyone can help me lift a book with an infinite number of pages, you can.

Captain Marvel: Gnnnn!

Ultraman, later (those veiny arms surely do not mean he struggles physically):

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_UltramanLiftingInfinity.jpg

Another thing you should keep in mind: it’s a comic.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Percieving something and reacting to it at the same speed, are not necessary occurences. I.e. If one was to replace a humans Central Nervous system with a fibre optics equivalent, one would be able to percieve bullets moving in slow motion, however the subject wouldn't be able to move out of the way, due the limitations of his physiology. I've yet to see any evidence that shows Superman dynamically reacting to meta-luminal objects. In fact there is enormous counter evidence to suggest other wise. The Starship enterprise maybe able to move faster than light, It doesn't mean it could avoid a photon. Im using this method of traditional logic to illustrate my point, becauseyou have used a simillar line previously, i.e. If Q then P, Q then R, P therefore R.

Let me just start by saying that eventough your first example is pretty bad, your second one is catastrophical (in doesn't even make sense in this context). Now, you are somehow trying to make a point by illustrating a hypotetical artifically enhanced human being unable to cope physically with the speed of a bullet eventough his brain capacity allows him to see the bullet in slow motion, and thus suggesting that somehow Superman may be able to percieve FTL speeds as moving at relative normal speeds but he is somehow unable to move, being a statue in his own body. You know, there is something called common sense. -facepalm- Just to illustrate how illogical this really is, I'm just going to post something that according to this theory, should happen to Superman:

*Random FTL person comes charging at Superman full speed*

Superman: Great Krypton, look at him coming twoards me. What can I do, I'm thinking fast enough, but my body is unable to move!

Common sense, logic, pretty much everything dictates that's not the case. I'd understand if I'd only have one random example, where Superman was dodging a lightspeed/ftl attack, and I'd argue that it makes him FTL in everything. But here we have him with his back turned twoards the Flashes while having a conversation with Darkseid who is just a few feet away, when the Flashes zoom by him from behind, and before the Flashes even reach Darkseid, he has time see, recognize and even utter 'Barry Allen?' (which completly nullified the 'his body can't cope with his brain' theory btw). Not only this, but we have him building an entire city in a matter of moments. I guess his brain just sort of telekinetically assembled everything while he was randomly flying around there, unable to move his limbs. Or another one, where he moves around and block kryptonite radiation being shot twoards him with a piece of glass, again, from a short distance.

Originally posted by Raoul
Finally found it. remember it being bigger, but meh, still impressive...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Action792-04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Action792-05.jpg

Heh, Joe Kelly.

That's the same issue in which he shakes an entire house with a tap, lol.

Originally posted by Raoul
eh, i agree, to an extent. he flies FTL on occasion. he'd have to be able to respond to phenomena and make course corrections if neccessary.

even if he wasnt FTL reflex wise, he'd be pretty damn close, imo.

Well, I've already made my view clear.

Originally posted by Raoul
i like kelly. he managed to write some good stories while not being skimpy on the feats...

Yeah. Him plowing through Imperiex probes along Doomsday was pretty insane though, considering what those were capable of. (he's the guy who wrote that IIRC)

Originally posted by Enyalus
Aw, I'm a big Parmenides fanboy, but Zeno's arguments were pure crap. Aristotle deals with them in the Physics (Book 6, Ch. 8-9).

Don't use a fallacy to debate a fallacy.

Its just an example of how counter intuitive infinities are. My original point holds.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Second, if Superman can perceive and react super-luniminally a punch from the likes of Wonder Woman, The General and the Martian Manhunter (all whom have yet to prove they are any where near F.T.L.) would easily be countered. Don't forget, If your perceiving F.T.L ,anything moving slower looks Frozen in time, for you are traveling a faster than the light that you are perceiving (Don't even get me started on the paradoxes this causes). However Superman could literally not be punched by someone with sub-Luminal speed. It would be as easy as avoiding a sedated snail.

Thirdly, in Grant Morissons run on JLA he makes reference to Superman not being able to go F.T.L. He has to steal Flashes speed to out run a Rann Zeta beam. As you know your first example is taken from a Grant Morisson written text. Fourthly your third counter example could arguably done at sub luminal speeds, when you consider that Light goes round the entire earth several times a second, the distance he would have to cover in "Bizaro City" is hardly comparable.

he's caught punches by wonder woman before, and he has been upgraded since morrison's run on jla in 1998.

not arguing, or anything, just, you know, pointing it out...

Originally posted by Raoul
he's caught punches by wonder woman before, and he has been upgraded since morrison's run on jla in 1998.

not arguing, or anything, just, you know, pointing it out...

Upgraded, unofficially

And they are more likely to do with his Superior sub-luminal speed.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
First off, your rhetorical sarcastic counter example happens all the time. Ever been hit in the face with a ball that you saw coming towardsyou? Yeah... same principle, you perceivethe ball but you don't physically react quickly enough to counter it. There's nothing illogical about it.

Second, if Superman can perceive and react super-luniminally a punch from the likes of Wonder Woman, The General and the Martian Manhunter (all whom have yet to prove they are any where near F.T.L.) would easily be countered. Don't forget, If your perceiving F.T.L ,anything moving slower looks Frozen in time, for you are traveling a faster than the light that you are perceiving (Don't even get me started on the paradoxes this causes). However Superman could literally not be punched by someone with sub-Luminal speed. It would be as easy as avoiding a sedated snail.

Thirdly, in Grant Morissons run on JLA he makes reference to Superman not being able to go F.T.L. He has to steal Flashes speed to out run a Rann Zeta beam. As you know your first example is taken from a Grant Morisson written text. Fourthly your third counter example could arguably done at sub luminal speeds, when you consider that Light goes round the entire earth several times a second, the distance he would have to cover in "Bizaro City" is hardly comparable.

Fourthly, how do we know that Kryptonite radiation consists of photonic radiation? It could infact be alpha of beta in nature making it avoidable at subluminal speeds.

Firstly. Heh, how nice of you to change your argument. Or at least, perhap this is what you meant to say in the first place, but the example you used, where the mind has time due to the artificially enhanced nervous system to percieve and analyze the threat, thus the 'bullet moving in slow motion' comment, but the body is 'incompatible' with the mind's speed and thus effectivly being a statue compared to the bullet, was bad enough that you lost your original ideea along the way. Because it isn't compatible with your current argument where the mind is 'compatible' with the body, but is unable to react fast enough in order to command the body to move out of the way, which effectivly doesn't mean that the body doesn't have the necessary speed to get out of the way, but due to the body/mind 'combined' that you are unable to dodge the ball.

But, for example, if we were to put that anology in context with the Superman/Flashes speed feat, it would be akin to a ball coming twoards my face and me just looking at it, and also having time to utter "made by Nike?" afterwards slamming me in the face. If I had time to look at it, recognize who made it and even utter 'by Nike?' you don't think I'd have time to move my body fast enough to either defend myself using my hands, or just get my head out of the way ? Thus, your counter-argument is still a bad one.

Secondly, those are all PIS, and it happens quite frequently in the comics, to pretty much all those who operate at super-speed. It's Carver or Quanchi-lite type of argument (not insulting those, since I can actually show numerous posts from them doing this) which aren't applicable. Anybody with decent amount of superspeed shouldn't be tagged by far slower characters, yet they do, and they always will.

Thirdly. That was written by Mark Waid and not Grant Morrison.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_MarkWaidJLA.jpg

So that point fails. On two accounts actually, since Superman has been upgraded since then.

You seem to think that he zoomed around the city. No. He built it all. An entire city. Building an entire block is an impressive display of superspeed alone, but an entire city ? That's just insane. And from the scan, you can actually see far-off buildings in the background, just to get the scope of what he had actually done.

Fourthly, since that is kryptonite radiation in electromagnetic wavelength form, it is logical to assume it travels lightspeed. I don't know why put this stupid questions, like I'm just going to pull out a 'science of kryptonite' scan out of nowhere, because that's obviously the first thing the writers will take care of. They'll make a detailed study just for you.

facepalm

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Upgraded, unofficially

Officially, actually.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Your argument seems quite persuasive but is inherently sophistic.

"If I had time to look at it, recognize who made it and even utter 'by Nike?' you don't think I'd have time to move my body fast enough to either defend myself using my hands, or just get my head out of the way ?"

There's a very subtle, but massive flaw with this counter example, which involves sound being massively slower than light. Your counter is invalid because it would mean the utterance of the Words (AKA a sound) being faster than light.

I suppose when Superman is uttering the words, the sound is also F.T.L. ? Superfast people talking at speeds far exceeding the speed of sound isn't unheard of in comics. In fact, I can show you several examples involving Superman himself.

Here's him chasing Wally at over two thousand miles a second, and having conversations while doing it:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_FasterThanSoundTalking1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_FasterThanSoundTalking2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_FasterThanSoundTalking3.jpg

Here's him racing Jay, at close to peak-speed, and the same thing happening:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_FasterThanSoundTalking4.jpg

And there are many, many other.

It should also be mentioned that the idea that he can't move his body that fast (other than flying) is wrong as he punched Wonder Woman at FTL speeds, his arm had to be moving FTL to do that.

In addition, it's possible that he has to shift his perceptions to see things at super speed, like the Flashes do. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to interact normally (it would take days or weeks to hear a normal person say a single word)

Originally posted by Endless Mike
In addition, it's possible that he has to shift his perceptions to see things at super speed, like the Flashes do. Otherwise, he wouldn't be able to interact normally (it would take days or weeks to hear a normal person say a single word)

Logically speaking, that should be the case, since it would be nearly impossible to live in a world where you constantly operate at superspeed. But, as examples show, he doesn't need to 'turn on his superspeed', as he is constantly operating at speeds that allow him to react fast enough to things moving at high-speeds. For example, here he reacts to Bloodsport shooting at Jimmy after it's fired and moves fast enough to catch the bullet (eventough it's the period where he was just starting to regain his powers, as the instance shows his flying powers just kicked in):

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanBulletCatching1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanBulletCatching2.jpg

And then there's also probably my all-time favorite bullet-time feat, where even after being constantly shot with red sun radiation while fighting Ruin he is still fast enough to react to a gunshot shot from a close distance and go to the other side of Metropolis, and arrive there just at the instant the shot (intentionally) misses the target. I'd post it, but you most likely know of it. And though the scan I posted above with him racing the Flash mentions Superman's perception switching to match Flashes', I'd like to bring up the Final Crisis example again, where he instantly percieves Barry Allen passing by him at superluminal speed despite not really switching his perceptions or 'activating his superspeed'.

The one where his perceptions had to adapt was before IC, iirc, so we could easily say that it was part of his upgrade, imo...

Originally posted by Raoul
The one where his perceptions had to adapt was before IC, iirc, so we could easily say that it was part of his upgrade, imo...

Your sig makes me interested in the all of the Corps. Especially the violet one.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Your sig makes me interested in the all of the Corps. Especially the violet one.

lol, its worth it imo if you go and catch up...

Originally posted by Raoul
lol, its worth it imo if you go and catch up...

How many issues am I behind by?

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
How many issues am I behind by?

The leadup to Blackest Night is...

GL v4 26 - Present (last issue was 39)

Final Crisis, Rage of the Red Lanterns is in there too.

GL Corps 19 - Present (i think the last was 33)

those, and the Blackest Night #0, which was out this week... It's more of a preview issue, though...

Originally posted by Raoul
So are we all agreed that Superman > light?

Yes. In For Tomorrow which I've just recently read he is in his bed and hears Kyle Rayner pleading for help. Kyle is in a battle in space a "million miles away." The fact that Superman arrives in time to help Kyle shows how little time has passed.
A million miles isn't too much of an exaggeration either, because he mentions the "symmetry" of it as he was away when a million people instantly vanished.

Applying real-world phisical laws to characters like Flash/Superman and then due to many of their displayed abilities contradicting those making your current stance, which is practically going 'I can think whatever I want, because based on real life laws this can't happen' (only with walls of text) is quite frankly, illogical.

I can see your point of view, but I strongly disagree with it. I start from the premise that the laws of physics still apply in comics, but don't see nothing wrong with characters like Superman/Flash and other super-powered heroes 'contradicting' them on ocasions. We are talking about the same Superman who can go at FTL. Who can hear things from Lightyears away. Who looks at souls. Who has been theorized to actually bend space/time in order to fly. I could just aswell say that instead of contradicting them, he is powerfull enough to 'bypass' them.

----

Anyhow, this is moving away from the purpose of this thread, which is not 'physics of superheroes'. I consider the 'Superman FTL' point done, so I'd like to move on to other things.

I've heard somebody mention T-Vo. From what I understand, this ability won't be used in the post-Infinite Crisis continuity because they found it silly (can't say I disagree with it).

Feel free to ask any question about anything Superman-related. It isn't necessary to be soley-Superman related, as we can discuss how he compares to other heroes aswell, based on history.

Moving faster than light is physically impossible but not logically impossible. Same for speaking at super speeds. It seems you are not applying proper suspension of disbelief.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
Im not talking about the laws of physics though, they aren't logically necessary. I'm talking about the laws of reason, logic, common sense etc. They seem to be meta physically binding to all things, man made etc. Other wise what ever is in question is pure nonsense. Now I don't mind nonsense in fiction, because its not bound by real world realism. However debating about nonsense in JUST as nonsensical. A debate by nature requires language which is governed by logical structure. If the subject matter doesn't have the same LOGICAL structure (AND once agin im not talking about physics, biology, chemistry etc, Im talking about analytics i.e. maths, tautologies etc), then you cannot infer logical assertions. Assertions like "Superman can react faster than light" can't be made because the subject itself is nonsensical. You might as well be debating the angles of a four sided triangle, or the shades of a "color" that is both black and white simultaneously. Its Pure gibberish. To do a G.E. Moore shift or sorts; I could assert that Batman is capable of creating a female bachelor, and I could justify this on the grounds that its cannon because logic doesn't apply to comics. Are you really going to tell me that this is acceptable, because this is what you are arguing.

facepalm

Walls of text still can't cover-up the gaps in your logic. Your stance is practically 'When it comes to a fictional setting I debate only what can be applied to the real-life setting, and call what bypasses the established real-life laws nonsensical". You then put another horrendous comparison.

I said it once, and I'll say it again. This is not the thread to discuss comic book physics and what you find it acceptable to debate about and what not. The third time, I'm going to report you, as this is not the path I want this thread to be going. It's not the other posters' fault that you couldn't backup your arguments, and now switch to this walls of the text blabbering about how Superman reacting at FTL is unacceptable. Stop.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Moving faster than light is physically impossible but not logically impossible. Same for speaking at super speeds. It seems you are not applying proper suspension of disbelief.

He seems to not be applying logic itself, while at the same trying to make arguments concerning it. Quite ironic, really. Anyhow, like I said, this part of the discussion is done as it has no place here.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Moving faster than light is physically impossible but not logically impossible. Same for speaking at super speeds. It seems you are not applying proper suspension of disbelief.


No but Sound is , by definition.

...?

Wait, what ? You do realize that 'Superman's abilities' was what was being discussed before you ran out of arguments and started calling this discussing nonsensical and gibberish, right ?

What the hell, man ?

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
However debating about nonsense in JUST as nonsensical. A debate by nature requires language which is governed by logical structure. If the subject matter doesn't have the same LOGICAL structure (AND once agin im not talking about physics, biology, chemistry etc, Im talking about analytics i.e. maths, tautologies etc), then you cannot infer logical assertions. Assertions like "Superman can react faster than light" can't be made because the subject itself is nonsensical.You might as well be debating the angles of a four sided triangle, or the shades of a "color" that is both black and white simultaneously. Its Pure gibberish.

And no, the translation would be: stop trolling the thread with off-topic discussions or the third time you're going to be told it's going to be from a moderator.

So, other topics. Like I pointed out earlier, how he compares to Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel/Martian Manhunter etc. ? Another interesting one is about him holding back, or another one I saw Cartesian Doubt and some others discussing about how he processes solar energy.

Be more active, people. uhuh

so, what has been established with him holding back? is it him sub-consciously holding back? how long has he had mental barriers? how much is he holding back? basically, whats all the information we have on him holding back?

Originally posted by Endless Mike
I'd like to bring up T-Vo. It's a rarely used power, but I was wondering if anyone has a complete list of the times it has been used and exactly what it did

Towards the bottom of the page (and the start of the next one) are all the T-vo examples that I know of.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=371890&pagenumber=85

He does some pretty cool stuff with it. It's even stated that Superman's will overcomes his enemies ability (basically giving him control over his opponents power set.)

Originally posted by Mindship
Yeah, this is something CD and I have discussed a few times in the past.

A while back I had worked out that, given the amount of sunlight which falls to earth per square meter, and the surface area of Superman's skin (ie, of the average adult male), the math showed that Superman doesn't have anywhere near enough surface area to absorb the amount of energy he expends. Again, I don't recall the exact figures, but I remember, eg, that in order for him to withstand a 1-megaton blast, he'd have to be absorbing sunlight for 500 years.

Clearly, something else is at work.

The general theory is that sunlight acts as a trigger, igniting a more powerful energy source, like the way a sparkplug starts a car engine. ZPE could well be an appropriate candidate for the larger energy source.

(And not to backtrack, but as an explanation for how Superman flies, I like to relate it to his bioelectric aura. Ie, for invulnerability, it's a scalar field, repulsing from all directions; for flight it becomes a vectored field, repulsing in a given direction.)

Regarding T-Vo: I don't know that much about it, but it's always struck me as an afterthought, like someone said, "Hey, Superman is vulnerable in this area; let's close the gap with this new power."

I've seen the scans of his digestive system converting mass into PURE energy, like a biological star. He uses the solar energy to photosynthesize organic molecules, that his digestive system then converts and stores in some magical way(without giving him any mass). Who cares that his body would basically have to convert a 100 tons a second, its a comic. His bio electrical aura is basically an electro-plasma field, similar to a star; but at room temps. Some way or another he has some kind of organ that refracts gravitons and space, like the universe expanding at the big bang.

I liked the whole gravity lens thing, but the lens would literally have to be the size of the sun to work. In then he would expend more energy than he would get off it.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
I've seen the scans of his digestive system converting mass into PURE energy, like a biological star. I wouldn't mind seeing those scans myself.

In any event: it had best be a total-conversion reaction going on in his supergut; and even then, this would work for a Byrnes Superman, not a more powerful version. Eg, if Supes eats a quarter-pounder, e=mc^2 means it would totally convert to about 10^16 joules, roughly the energy released by a 2.5 megaton blast...

...which means, to withstand the full energy of a 250 megaton nuke (let's say Supes is surrounding the bomb with his body to shield civilians), he had better consumed beforehand 100 quarter-pounders (ie, about 25 pounds of food).

I did the math quickly, but I think this is right.

Fun With Numbers

Originally posted by Mindship
I wouldn't mind seeing those scans myself.

In any event: it had best be a total-conversion reaction going on in his supergut; and even then, this would work for a Byrnes Superman, not a more powerful version. Eg, if Supes eats a quarter-pounder, e=mc^2 means it would totally convert to about 10^16 joules, roughly the energy released by a 2.5 megaton blast...

...which means, to withstand the full energy of a 250 megaton nuke (let's say Supes is surrounding the bomb with his body to shield civilians), he had better consumed beforehand 100 quarter-pounders (ie, about 25 pounds of food).

I did the math quickly, but I think this is right.

Fun With Numbers

He's not eating ingesting the food , he is synthesising it from the air, like a plant. If his solar cells are many times more efficient than Chloroplasts, there's no reason to suggest he couldn't synthesise several Kilograms of organic mass a second, Ingnoring the fact that the air pressure around his body would be pretty intense, for Kilo's of air have to diffuse into his body per second. If he then some how stores this energy in a purely potnetial form (maybe using a biological Super Conductor) within a year he's has more than enough energy to deflect the Asteroid that Killed the dionsaurs. Its not going to make him a planet mover, but Its still going to make him pretty God Like. Also he would be allow to Sundip, as the sun literally has trillions of tons of Carbon and oxygen inside it. He plunges into the Sun, and the extra solar energy allows him to photosynthesise at exponential rate.

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
No but Sound is , by definition.

Not really - can't we say it's some kind of latent psionic ability? Superman seems to have those.

Anyway, I'd say the "no force in the universe could resist that blow" would be hyperbole, however if that is PC Supes (as the art seems to indicate), then who knows....

Originally posted by Cartesian Doubt
He's not eating ingesting the food , he is synthesising it from the air, like a plant. Doesn't a plant synthesize it from the ground via its roots?

Also he would be allow to Sundip, as the sun literally has trillions of tons of Carbon and oxygen inside it. He plunges into the Sun, and the extra solar energy allows him to photosynthesise at exponential rate. TG for the sundip...though this will only be good for a few more billion years before the sun swells into a red giant.

Originally posted by Mindship
Doesn't a plant synthesize it from the ground via its roots?


Common mistake to make, they get their organic molecules such as Carbon and Oxygen from the air, via diffusion thru the stomata.

Originally posted by emporerpants
so, what has been established with him holding back? is it him sub-consciously holding back? how long has he had mental barriers? how much is he holding back? basically, whats all the information we have on him holding back?

It's both conscious and subconscious. He constantly pulls his punches, to the point where he regulates his power on a subconscious level, and as he admited, the only time he hit a person as hard as he could with his powers was at the end against Doomsday.

How much he holds back ? Quite a lot. OWAW is the best example for this. Basically, even after training with Mongul, both of them could still barely handle an Imperiex Probe. Later, he goes on to fight against one 1 vs 1 and still barely wins, after using HV/Freeze Breath/Speedblitz combo. But, when he really cuts loose with Doomsday in space, basically devoiding himself of emotion and going into a 'war mentality' he literally wades through them until he gets to Imperiex.

Originally posted by Avlon
I always thought the "infinite" force of this punch was mighty interesting.

http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/6607/adventuresofsupermanannjv8.th.jpg

I'd rather keep that when people bring hyperboles to back their characters.

Originally posted by Mindship


TG for the sundip...though this will only be good for a few more billion years before the sun swells into a red giant.

He won't be able to convert the enrgy any way, as it will be red Solar radiation. I presume that when he absorbs yellow sun radiation, his solar cells synthesise an idestructible protien, which provides the activation energy needed to convert the mass into energy. Red rays, crete an inhibitor than deactivates the protien (Notice that the protien is indestructible, so can't actually be natured by heat, pressure or PH). I presume this indestructiblke protien isn't actually a natural occuring molecule, but one that has been "man-made" using nano technology and genetic engineering.

Well it was said that red sunlight locks away his powers