flash vs juggernaut charge

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chomperx9
FLash and 8th day Juggernaut are going to ram each other but they start from a great distance so juggy gets a chance to move a couple feet at least to pick up the pace.

The question is will flash be able to knock down juggernaut with his speed the second they ram each other ?

Or will it be like bumping into an adamantium wall for flash and he takes the fall for running into 8th day juggernaut even with his light speed ?

so whose the last one standing from the charge ?

xJLxKing
Depending how far it is. Flash might ram him before Juggernaut can even move.
I don't think Flash will knock him out though,

chomperx9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Depending how far it is. Flash might ram him before Juggernaut can even move.
I don't think Flash will knock him out though, flash starts from south pole juggernaut north pole. and this is about who goes down not necessarily meaning any of them get knocked out. but yeah theres a chance that flash could get knocked out from ramming 8th day juggernaut at light speed. but maybe theres a chance of him knocking juggy down not meaning he will get knocked out. just on his back for a sec.

Wei Phoenix
Flash doesn't stop Cain.

chomperx9
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Flash doesn't stop Cain. even at light speed ? i know if juggy got a chance to move afew feet to get the momentum going which would make it harder for flash but flash would reach the other end of the earth probably before cain gets a chance to move an inch. but yeah as durable juggy is this wont be the easiest thing flash would ever try to ram.

Enyalus
Regular Juggernaut? Flash would move him for sure.

8th Day? No way in hell.

chomperx9
Originally posted by Enyalus
Regular Juggernaut? Flash would move him for sure.

8th Day? No way in hell. ok 8th day juggy is spite. its flash and current juggernaut charging eachother

KingD19
Well current Juggernaut has the full powers of Cytorrak again. I say Flash slows him down to an almost stop, but nothing can ever truly stops him from moving. Flash hits him, get's hurt doing it, and slows Cain down.

Enyalus
Originally posted by chomperx9
its flash and current juggernaut charging eachother

Then yeah. IMP FTLOM! (For the loss of momentum.)

Rage.Of.Olympus
Flash can apparently gain Infinite Mass. If he truly gains Infinite Mass (The Universe doesn't collapse or anything of that manner because of the Speed Force.), he stops him cold, and pushes him back.

The Speed Force would also protect Flash from any damage.

Flash would be in Juggernaut's face before he forms a coherent thought.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Flash can apparently gain Infinite Mass. If he truly gains Infinite Mass (The Universe doesn't collapse or anything of that manner because of the Speed Force.), he stops him cold, and pushes him back.

The Speed Force would also protect Flash from any damage.

Flash would be in Juggernaut's face before he forms a coherent thought.

Two things: Infinite Mass Punch isn't infinite mass. Its near-infinite mass. Relativistic speeds. Hits with the force of a white dwarf star, supposedly. Not infinity. I think we've had this convo before. Either you and me or Galan and me. Meh.

Also, they start at opposite poles of Earth. And Juggernaut gets to take a few steps first. He'll definitely be able to form a coherent thought. stick out tongue

KingD19
He doesn't get that fast in an instant, and the thing that says nothing can stop him, isn't hyperbole, it means he literally can't be stopped, he can be slowed to the point where his momentum is almost nothing, but he can never be stopped.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Two things: Infinite Mass Punch isn't infinite mass. Its near-infinite mass. Relativistic speeds. Hits with the force of a white dwarf star, supposedly. Not infinity. I think we've had this convo before. Either you and me or Galan and me. Meh.

Also, they start at opposite poles of Earth. And Juggernaut gets to take a few steps first. He'll definitely be able to form a coherent thought. stick out tongue

We have never had this conversation before.

It's not only his fist that gains mass from what I recall, and it was stated that he is approaching "Infinite" mass.

A white Dwarf Star is not his limit.

Wally was from what I remember approaching Infinite Mass from what I recall. It's stands to reason he would reach Infinite Mass if he kept going as he was already on the way. It's been stated on other occasions that he has approached near Infinite Mass and that wasn't his limit.

If Wally can reach Infinite Mass, he stops Cain.

Opposite ends of the Earth?

You're point?

I've seen Wally go faster than light and then some in 2 steps. Light Speed can circle the Earth how many times in moments?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by KingD19
He doesn't get that fast in an instant, and the thing that says nothing can stop him, isn't hyperbole, it means he literally can't be stopped, he can be slowed to the point where his momentum is almost nothing, but he can never be stopped.

Faster than light in about one to two steps from what I recall. Wally can go that fast.

I've seen the Juggernaut stopped, and even pushed back on different occasions.

KingD19
Regardless, if Cain at least get's a single step off, his momentum can be halted, but not stopped.

Tell me when he got pushed back.

Mindset
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
We have never had this conversation before.

It's not only his fist that gains mass from what I recall, and it was stated that he is approaching "Infinite" mass.

A white Dwarf Star is not his limit.

Wally was from what I remember approaching Infinite Mass from what I recall. It's stands to reason he would reach Infinite Mass if he kept going as he was already on the way. It's been stated on other occasions that he has approached near Infinite Mass and that wasn't his limit.

If Wally can reach Infinite Mass, he stops Cain.

Opposite ends of the Earth?

You're point?

I've seen Wally go faster than light and then some in 2 steps. Light Speed can circle the Earth how many times in moments? Flash will never reach infinite mass.

He can't.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's not only his fist that gains mass from what I recall, and it was stated that he is approaching "Infinite" mass.

A white Dwarf Star is not his limit.

Wally was from what I remember approaching Infinite Mass from what I recall. It's stands to reason he would reach Infinite Mass if he kept going as he was already on the way. It's been stated on other occasions that he has approached near Infinite Mass and that wasn't his limit.

If Wally can reach Infinite Mass, he stops Cain.
That's fine. Infinite Mass Punch approaches c, and gains 'near infinite' mass - hitting with the force of a white dwarf star. That's what he's shown so far. That's what I'll use.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Opposite ends of the Earth?

You're point?

I've seen Wally go faster than light and then some in 2 steps. Light Speed can circle the Earth how many times in moments?
A tenth of a second. And Wally did that, what, back in '01? More recently, he needed to steal the speed of several Speed Force users in order to hit c instantly.

chomperx9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Light Speed can circle the Earth how many times in moments? speed of light can go around the earth i believe 7 times in one sec

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Mindset
Flash will never reach infinite mass.

He can't.

Well tell that to him, when he was approaching Infinite Mass.

Stop being difficult.

mad

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
That's fine. Infinite Mass Punch approaches c, and gains 'near infinite' mass - hitting with the force of a white dwarf star. That's what he's shown so far. That's what I'll use.

Near Infinite?

As I recall, it was stated on panel, that he was approaching Infinite Mass, and not "near" Infinite Mass.

Near Infinite Mass > Hitting with the force of a White Dwarf Star

That's not his limit. He did that easily and he wasn't approaching the same speeds as he was when he was approaching Infinite Mass, so he is obviously capable of much more.

Originally posted by Enyalus
A tenth of a second. And Wally did that, what, back in '01? More recently, he needed to steal the speed of several Speed Force users in order to hit c instantly.

He has reached faster than light speeds, in mere moments in the past. They are still valid.

Stupid showings like that, I blame on Dan Didio, and Geoff Johns.

By the time they are done, will be using, Pre and Post Retcon Wally West. I'm being serious.

I can probably count already 5 contradictions with his past showings, since the announcement of Barry Allen's return.

Damn, Silver Age wanking, wankers.

mad

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by KingD19
Regardless, if Cain at least get's a single step off, his momentum can be halted, but not stopped.

Tell me when he got pushed back.

*cough* War Hulk *cough

Rage.Of.Olympus
Iight. Good night KMC.

KingD19
Well, he can approach it, but that doesn't mean he can't reach it. A runner can approach 30 mph, but it doesn't mean he gets there.

Rage.Of.Olympus
In the context of how it was used, it seemed as he was going to reach it.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
In the context of how it was used, it seemed as he was going to reach it.
Go to sleep.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Go to sleep.

What are you my wife?

I want to, but I can't.

I'm addicted.

embarrasment

Nah. I'm leaving. This time I'm serious.

laughing out loud

Logging off.....

chomperx9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What are you my wife?

I want to, but I can't.

I'm addicted.

embarrasment

Nah. I'm leaving. This time I'm serious.

laughing out loud

Logging off..... wait i have one question before you go

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What are you my wife?
Only in my wildest fantasies. love

chomperx9
Originally posted by Enyalus
Only in my wildest fantasies. love how romantic cry

KingD19
Hulk didn't push him back, Juggernaut was slowly pushing him back, that's why he moved and let Juggernaut keep running into the lake.

Enyalus
Originally posted by KingD19
Hulk didn't push him back, Juggernaut was slowly pushing him back, that's why he moved and let Juggernaut keep running into the lake.
You're talking about World War Hulk.

Rage was talking about War Hulk. Hulk altered by Apocalypse to become his horseman of War. That's one instance when Juggernaut, at full power, gets pushed back. Another is Thor using his Godblast, which also pushes Juggy back. And in WWH, OneDumb has a theory that WWH stopped Juggy's momentum completely, both were stalemated, then WWH tripped him and he ran into the lake. I think that theory is plausible.

KingD19
Ooooo, Hulk was powered by Celestial tech, and it wasn't pushing him back if I recall, I just thought he stopped him. And no, Thor didn't push Juggs back with his godblast, he kept him from moving for a bit, then the floor collapsed. And if you look at what they said, and the pic, Juggs was pushing Hulk back extremely slowly.

Enyalus
Originally posted by KingD19
Ooooo, Hulk was powered by Celestial tech, and it wasn't pushing him back if I recall, I just thought he stopped him.
Nah. He stops him totally, and then flings Juggy away with that whip-like thing on his arm.

Originally posted by KingD19
And no, Thor didn't push Juggs back with his godblast, he kept him from moving for a bit, then the floor collapsed.
That's also not true. stick out tongue Juggy was being moved backwards slowly, then the floor gave. Do you have the issue to re-read? I could post the scans if not, I'm just feeling really lazy and don't have them already done.

Originally posted by KingD19
And if you look at what they said, and the pic, Juggs was pushing Hulk back extremely slowly.
That's possible. Regardless, Hulk virtually stopped Juggy's momentum. Its possible. Flash's IMP would probably do the same.

Naija boy
Flash cant stop 8th day jugs

Enyalus
Originally posted by Naija boy
Flash cant stop 8th day jugs
I definitely agree. But the thread starter changed the OP a little ways down on the first page to just be regular Juggy..

KingD19
Post the scan, I remember him about to start moving forward until the floor collapsed. And I can't remember the War Hulk, but post it if you have it.

Enyalus
Originally posted by KingD19
Post the scan, I remember him about to start moving forward until the floor collapsed. And I can't remember the War Hulk, but post it if you have it.
Needy bastard. stick out tongue Could've at least said 'please.' *sniffle*

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Juggystopped1.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Juggystopped2.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Juggystopped3.jpg

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Juggystoppedv2_1.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Juggystoppedv2_2.jpg

Naija boy
Originally posted by Enyalus
I definitely agree. But the thread starter changed the OP a little ways down on the first page to just be regular Juggy..

Ah well regular juggy he might be able to.

KingD19
Thor, I'll admit too, but the Juggernaut fight seems like he whipped him using his own momentum.

Enyalus
Originally posted by KingD19
Thor, I'll admit too, but the Juggernaut fight seems like he whipped him using his own momentum.
War Hulk stopped his momentum, too. That's why Juggy's eyes were all wide and it showed Hulk's feet digging in above that. Juggy was shocked that he was stopped (when in the first scan he said he couldn't be). And then War Hulk tossed him.

Against WWH, you could be right. WWH used Juggy's momentum against him for BFR.

KingD19
Well, I'm sure he was surprised he stopped moving forward, he said impossible when he got flung.

Mindset
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well tell that to him, when he was approaching Infinite Mass.

Stop being difficult.

mad He will always only be approaching it.

chomperx9
Originally posted by Naija boy
Ah well regular juggy he might be able to. its current juggernaut

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
*cough* War Hulk *cough

Celestial tech and last time I checked Celestials are above Flash and Speedforce.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Mindset
He will always only be approaching it.

When was this ever stated?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Celestial tech and last time I checked Celestials are above Flash and Speedforce.

Just because you possess Celestial technology, it does not make one extremely powerful like the Celestials. One might possess Celestial technology, but one can also be beaten.

Apocalypse is all the proof we need of that.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Mindset
Flash will never reach infinite mass.

He can't. Why not?

Just curious.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Wondering the same thing.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Just because you possess Celestial technology, it does not make one extremely powerful like the Celestials. One might possess Celestial technology, but one can also be beaten.

Apocalypse is all the proof we need of that.

Thats because Marvel decides to write Apocalypse as a jobber. Why would Celestial technology be weak though? The tech Hulk had was able to stop him, thats what Apocalypse was testing too. Hulk on his own has never stopped Cain and Flash won't either.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Thats because Marvel decides to write Apocalypse as a jobber. Why would Celestial technology be weak though? The tech Hulk had was able to stop him, thats what Apocalypse was testing too. Hulk on his own has never stopped Cain and Flash won't either.

He has never been able to stop Juggernaut?

I recall World War Hulk stopping Juggernaut, but he probably was using his strength and not his unstoppable power.

If one has Celestial technology, it does not make one a God or all powerful etc.

Beings with Celestial technology have lost in the past.

Either way, Infinite Mass, should stop Juggernaut. Infinite Mass, is something that Wally West can reach.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He has never been able to stop Juggernaut?

I recall World War Hulk stopping Juggernaut, but he probably was using his strength and not his unstoppable power.

If one has Celestial technology, it does not make one a God or all powerful etc.

Beings with Celestial technology have lost in the past.

Either way, Infinite Mass, should stop Juggernaut. Infinite Mass, is something that Wally West can reach.

WWH did not stop him. They locked up and Cain was pushing him back.

War Hulk wasn't a God or anything. He still didn't hurt Cain, he just stopped him which is what the tech is for.

How should IM stop Cain's magical enchantment? Does the SF always trump magic?

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
How should IM stop Cain's magical enchantment? Does the SF always trump magic? Sufficient force has been used to stop the Juggernaut in the past.

This is infinite force... theoretically.

Newjak
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Sufficient force has been used to stop the Juggernaut in the past.

This is infinite force... theoretically. Correction sufficient force has shown to slow Cain.

Don't try that Onlaught or War Hulk stuff with me either I know better on that than most people here. stick out tongue

As to this infinite mass punch. Like most things "infinite" in comics. It's nothing but a word.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
WWH did not stop him. They locked up and Cain was pushing him back.

War Hulk wasn't a God or anything. He still didn't hurt Cain, he just stopped him which is what the tech is for.

How should IM stop Cain's magical enchantment? Does the SF always trump magic?

So he slowed him down then. I believe Cain was using his strength.

War Hulk was able to stop him. That's my point. Sufficient force has been shown to stop Cain in the past, on different occasions and logic means it can do so again.

Infinite Mass is just that. Infinite Mass. The Universe doesn't collapse on itself or something like that because the Speed Force, cancels out's the affects as it does all the time. At least I hope.

Either way, less than that has stopped Cain in the past.

Sufficient force has stopped him in the past, and will do so again.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Newjak
Correction sufficient force has shown to slow Cain.

Don't try that Onlaught or War Hulk stuff with me either I know better on that than most people here. stick out tongue Hmm... well, I suppose we could always bring up the godblast.

Originally posted by Newjak
As to this infinite mass punch. Like most things "infinite" in comics. It's nothing but a word. No reason to believe that...

Original Smurph
Also, iirc, War Hulk did stop him first.

Newjak
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Hmm... well, I suppose we could always bring up the godblast.

No reason to believe that... Yup cause the Godblast isn't a mystical force of godly energy. It's amazing how something like that could stop Cain for a moment when mystical forces can effect him stick out tongue



Ok semantics aside from the word infinite in comics.

There's no reason to believe Flash could ever reach infinite to begin with. Since he's never done it, and someone approaching infinite will never reach infinite to begin with because, get this one, something would already have to be infinite to ever actually reach infinite.

I mean you can approach infinite just by running doesn't mean you'll ever get there. wink

Newjak
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Also, iirc, War Hulk did stop him first. You mean the guy who had celestial technology glued to him stopped the Juggernaut.

Heaven forbid such a thing to happen. laughing

Rage.Of.Olympus
Flash doesn't have to have Infinite Mass to stop the Juggernaut.

Based on the context he can approach it, and he has also been shown to reach near Infinite Mass.

That's sufficient to stop Cain.

Newjak
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Flash doesn't have to have Infinite Mass to stop the Juggernaut.

Based on the context he can approach it, and he has also been shown to reach near Infinite Mass.

That's sufficient to stop Cain. Doubtful considering what Cain can take wink

Rage.Of.Olympus
You can't truly quantify near Infinite obviously, but in my opinion seeing what has stopped Cain, a body of near Infinite Mass should stop him.

Wally West said his body's mass is approaching Infinity. Based on the context and how he said it, one can say he can reach Infinite Mass.

Based on that, Wally stops him cold.

Newjak
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You can't truly quantify near Infinite obviously, but in my opinion seeing what has stopped Cain, a body of near Infinite Mass should stop him.

Wally West said his body's mass is approaching Infinity. Based on the context and how he said it, one can say he can reach Infinite Mass.

Based on that, Wally stops him cold. Yup Celestial technology, and an attack that can drive back Galactus.

Yup Flash's running really fast attack compares to that. Especially since Flash is lacking a key thing from each one.

That being the mystical/otherworldly properties WWH Hulk and Thor had.

Cain should be able to take Flash's attack fairly reasonable.

Rage.Of.Olympus
That obviously wasn't on the same level as that attack on Galactus.

It was a narrow beam, and Thor was extremely weakened. The God Blast comes from Thor's life force.

Yes a Celestial technology amped Hulk stopped him but the point is, sufficient force has stopped him before in the past.

Celestial technology isn't all powerful either. It has been defeated on a number of occasions.

Speed Force = Otherworldly

Like I said, sufficient force has been shown to stop him in the past, and Infinite Mass is obviously sufficient force.

Flash's body mass was increasing towards Infinity.

How someone can say that can't stop Cain when less has obviously done is something I cannot understand.

Lord Feron
Pretty much Flash would be killing himself or bouncing off.

Newjak
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
That obviously wasn't on the same level as that attack on Galactus.

It was a narrow beam, and Thor was extremely weakened. The God Blast comes from Thor's life force.

Yes a Celestial technology amped Hulk stopped him but the point is, sufficient force has stopped him before in the past.

Celestial technology isn't all powerful either. It has been defeated on a number of occasions.

Speed Force = Otherworldly

Like I said, sufficient force has been shown to stop him in the past, and Infinite Mass is obviously sufficient force.

Flash's body mass was increasing towards Infinity.

How someone can say that can't stop Cain when less has obviously done is something I cannot understand. Thor's 'sickness' was on again off again. With no signs it dampened his abilities when it was off.

The key point it that Celestial Technology may not be all poowerful but it would have been able to effect Cain's mystical abilities much like Celestial tech has done in the past. Hence why he could stopped.



Speedforce does = otherwordly. Problem it isn't something proven to effect mystical properties.


And I would point out that Cain hasn't been stopped without there being some kinda of mystical nature or mystical negating ability behind it. Even when confronted with those things Cain has proven more than capable of over coming them like he did with the Godforce blast when he started walking again.

So when something like the Godforce blast can nly stop him because of it's mystical nature and yet he still pushed through it how can Flash stand a chance.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Enyalus

Nah. He stops him totally, and then flings Juggy away with that whip-like thing on his arm.


That's also not true. stick out tongue Juggy was being moved backwards slowly, then the floor gave. Do you have the issue to re-read? I could post the scans if not, I'm just feeling really lazy and don't have them already done.


That's possible. Regardless, Hulk virtually stopped Juggy's momentum. Its possible. Flash's IMP would probably do the same.

War hulk stopped him but didn't push him back just threw him away

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Newjak
Thor's 'sickness' was on again off again. With no signs it dampened his abilities when it was off.

The key point it that Celestial Technology may not be all poowerful but it would have been able to effect Cain's mystical abilities much like Celestial tech has done in the past. Hence why he could stopped.

Speedforce does = otherwordly. Problem it isn't something proven to effect mystical properties.

And I would point out that Cain hasn't been stopped without there being some kinda of mystical nature or mystical negating ability behind it. Even when confronted with those things Cain has proven more than capable of over coming them like he did with the Godforce blast when he started walking again.

So when something like the Godforce blast can nly stop him because of it's mystical nature and yet he still pushed through it how can Flash stand a chance.

It was clearly on for the most of the entire fight. He could barely stand. It got a lot worse to the point where it kept on going as I recall.

Celestial Technology is still technology and has been overcome in the past just like technology.

I don't recall in that instance it being said that it was negating Cain's mystical abilities etc.

The Speed Force is other worldly and it has been shown to affect beings of mystical properties. So I don't see the problem.

A Thor who was severely sick stopped him a with a narrow beam that was his God Blast.

Cain was able to survive, which gets him a thumbs up but the point is, Cain has been stopped in the past.

There are physical forces in the Universe greater than mystical forces.

A body mass approaching "Infinity" falls under that category.

tdazz
Flash and Juggernaut running into each other = a red and yellow smear under Cain's boot, no matter how fast Flash is going.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tdazz
Flash and Juggernaut running into each other = a red and yellow smear under Cain's boot, no matter how fast Flash is going.

Well that what would happen if we ignore Flash's powerset.

tdazz
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well that what would happen if we ignore Flash's powerset.

No, that's what happens because of Juggernaut's powerset.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tdazz
No, that's what happens because of Juggernaut's powerset.

That's what would happen if you take in Juggernaut's power set, but completely ignore Wally West's power set.

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If Wally can reach Infinite Mass, he stops Cain. You cannot 'reach' something infinite. Wally's mass simply approaches infinity (which still doesn't make sense, as infinity is not some fixed variable.) Anyhow, it should've just been called an 'increasing mass punch' - because drastically increasing his mass (to something akin to that of a white dwarf star,) is all Wally is really doing.

More on point, if Juggs (especially 8th Day) gains any sort of forward momentum, I don't see Flash doing much more than bouncing off of him.

Scarlet Fox
Can flash really run half way around the world in a few seconds? A Minute would be more understandable and Juggs would be able to get move then a few steps in. It doesnt take much for him to get Momentum.

Juntai
Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
Can flash really run half way around the world in a few seconds? A Minute would be more understandable and Juggs would be able to get move then a few steps in. It doesnt take much for him to get Momentum. Actually. He can be standing in two parts of world, interacting with different people as if he's a static object there.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
You cannot 'reach' something infinite. Wally's mass simply approaches infinity (which still doesn't make sense, as infinity is not some fixed variable.) Anyhow, it should've just been called an 'increasing mass punch' - because drastically increasing his mass (to something akin to that of a white dwarf star,) is all Wally is really doing.

Speed Force.

Infinity isn't a fixed variable but somehow he can approach it. I don't know how, but the Speed Force defies plenty laws of physics.

Apparently he can approach Infinity, as he was doing it on panel. Yet he held back etc.

Blame the comic, not me.

*shrugs*

Body mass that is approaching Infinity should stop the Juggernaut.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
Can flash really run half way around the world in a few seconds? A Minute would be more understandable and Juggs would be able to get move then a few steps in. It doesnt take much for him to get Momentum.

Something like circling the Earth in a second is effortless to the Flash.

He can do that, while running on his hands, backwards, while asleep. His hands can also be broken and he could still do it. He could even blind folded. He could even be deaf. He could even have a serious case, of indigestion. He could even be throwing up the entire time he does it.

I think I've run out of stupid scenarios, and I think you get my point.

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Speed Force.

Infinity isn't a fixed variable but somehow he can approach it. I don't know how, but the Speed Force defies plenty laws of physics.

Apparently he can approach Infinity, as he was doing it on panel. Yet he held back etc.

Blame the comic, not me. I know that Flash's mass can 'approach' infinity (as he's done so, on panel) - but the SF isn't the answer to this. Characters like Supreme, and more recently, Superman (to name a few) have reached 'near infinite mass', at speeds approaching c - and they are not tied to the SF whatsoever. What the SF is responsible for is Wally's human body not vaporizing at said speeds.

Anywho, the idea that one can 'reach' something infinite, is an oxymoron. It's like saying "I can run to the ends of infinity" or somesuch. Meh.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007

Anywho, the idea that one can 'reach' something infinite, is an oxymoron. It's like saying "I can run to the ends of infinity" or somesuch. Meh. Flash did that too.
big grin

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
I know that Flash's mass can 'approach' infinity (as he's done so, on panel) - but the SF isn't the answer to this. Characters like Supreme, and more recently, Superman (to name a few) have reached 'near infinite mass', at speeds approaching c - and they are not tied to the SF whatsoever. What the SF is responsible for is Wally's human body not vaporizing at said speeds.

Anywho, the idea that one can 'reach' something infinite, is an oxymoron. It's like saying "I can run to the ends of infinity" or somesuch. Meh.

I don't recall it being stated that their body mass was reaching Infinity etc. just that their mass was increasing etc.

I know the apparent logic behind it, but Wally is apparently approaching Infinity. As little sense as that makes, at the context it was used it seems that he was going to reach Infinite Mass.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Juntai
Flash did that too.
big grin

thumb up

SPEED FORCE POWAHH!

dur

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't recall it being stated that their body mass was reaching Infinity etc. just that their mass was increasing etc. Huh?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
As little sense as that makes, at the context it was used it seems that he was going to reach Infinite Mass. Never did though. On panel, Wally hit with the force 'white dwarf star'. That is decisively sub-infinite.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
Huh?

Referring to Superman etc.

Originally posted by Galan007
Never did though. On panel, Wally hit the Martian with the force 'white dwarf star'. That is decisively sub-infinite.

When did it say he hit the Martian with the force of a White Dwarf Star?

It never said how much force he used from what I remember. He simply said his mass was approaching Infinity.

Also, it seems as if some people take it, as that being his limit.

tdazz
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Body mass that is approaching Infinity should stop the Juggernaut.



No it shouldn't.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tdazz
No it shouldn't.

Less has stopped him.

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Referring to Superman etc. It wasn't outright stated that Superman's mass was approaching infinite (just that his mass was increasing) - but we can logically assume such. Why? Because it was stated that the mass of both Supreme and Flash were approaching infinite, at speeds just under c (which is the speed Superman was moving.) So...

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When did it say he hit the Martian with the force of a White Dwarf Star? I can't remember the exact issue, but it was stated.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
It wasn't outright stated that Superman's mass was approaching infinite (just that his mass was increasing) - but we can logically assume such. Why? Because it was stated that the mass of both Supreme and Flash were approaching infinite, at speeds just under c (which is the speed Superman was moving.) So...

It said his mass increased, not that it was approaching Infinity. Completely different levels of mass.

Hence why I said, the Speed Force is obviously playing a key factor in different areas.

Originally posted by Galan007
I can't remember the exact issue, but it was stated.

It was stated a while back. A completely different instance from the White Martian incident.

Galan007
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It said his mass increased, not that it was approaching Infinity. Completely different levels of mass.

Hence why I said, the Speed Force is obviously playing a key factor in different areas. I see that you did not understand the point of my post. At all.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was stated a while back. A completely different instance from the White Martian incident. Yeah, the Martian (Zum) instance was even lesser. When Flash IMP'd him in that instance, Zum just reached escape velocity. I've seen several characters hit/throw that hard.

Enyalus
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
War hulk stopped him but didn't push him back just threw him away
Lol, in the post you quoted of mine, I said virtually that exact same thing.
Originally posted by Galan007
Never did though. On panel, Wally hit with the force 'white dwarf star'. That is decisively sub-infinite.
thumb up Fo shizzy.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Newjak
There's no reason to believe Flash could ever reach infinite to begin with. Since he's never done it, and someone approaching infinite will never reach infinite to begin with because, get this one, something would already have to be infinite to ever actually reach infinite.

I mean you can approach infinite just by running doesn't mean you'll ever get there. wink Oh noes... not a law of physics!!! Surely Flash could never defy one of those!

Going by what you've stated, the same should hold true for going faster than the speed of light, running faster than instantaneous travel, running through time forwards and backwards, moving people at speeds approaching C without damaging them, etc, etc.

Flash picks and chooses the physics that apply to him at any one moment.

Regardless, Flash can achieve any mass he wishes. Seeing as it is possible to eventually achieve a non-magical amount of force that can stop the Juggernaut (War Hulk), there's no reason there shouldn't be an eventual number that can overcome Cain.

------------------------------------

Physics question:

The IMP is based around the idea that as an object's speed approaches C, his mass increases accordingly. At C and > C speeds, which Flash can achieve, wouldn't he then have access to infinite mass? I thought that one "achieved" infinite mass if they got infinitely close to C- obviously impossible. If you can run faster than C though, wouldn't that then give you access to infinite mass?

Genuine question.

I always figured the reason that Flash didn't strike with infinite mass- only with the mass of a white dwarf star or somesuch- was the same reason that he can ignore IMP's when he picks up people while running. Speed Force allows Flash to vary any physics affecting him at any one point.

One normally can't approach infinity, it's true. But Flash can. He can run faster than C, after all.

Correct whatever of this is wrong... this was just my understanding.

Starscream M
the IMP is a misnomer.

its hits with nowhere near the mass of a white dwarf. if it did, the planet Flash stands on would be absorbed into his fist.

also, pretty much it would be a 1hit kill or KO against virtually anyone...considering punching with the mass of a white star concentrated in the space of a fist would be equivalent to over a million times more powerful than superman's hardest punch

Enyalus
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Physics question:

The IMP is based around the idea that as an object's speed approaches C, his mass increases accordingly. At C and > C speeds, which Flash can achieve, wouldn't he then have access to infinite mass? I thought that one "achieved" infinite mass if they got infinitely close to C- obviously impossible. If you can run faster than C though, wouldn't that then give you access to infinite mass?
I'm not h1a8, but I'll do my best to answer your nerd science question. stick out tongue

In the real world, no object that has mass can ever go light speed. That's because as you approach c, mass approaches infinity. In order to deal with that much mass, the energy needed to propel you to those speeds basically does hit infinity. So that IRL an object with mass can't ever hit light speed. I think the equation breaks down for something FTL though, because thats our universe's "speed limit" if you will. Nothing can go faster than light. Nor do they have models for it. So that equation I mentioned wouldn't deal well with such speeds.

Clearly not the case in the comic world, I know. If Flash hits c, in theory he should be packing infinite mass. But, that's never ever been stated. And Flash has several instances of him fighting at or beyond light speed (his battle with Zoom, for instance, where he was multiple times light speed - if his punches were carrying infinite mass, and Zoom's durability is nearly human...he'd have gotten his face caved in.)

Mindset
If a spaceship has infinite mass, wouldn't the fuel have infinite mass?

Starscream M
Originally posted by Enyalus
(his battle with Zoom, for instance, where he was multiple times light speed - if his punches were carrying infinite mass, and Zoom's durability is nearly human...he'd have gotten his face caved in.) yep...if flash's punches were carrying infinite mass...even superman's face would cave in by one punch

on a side note...I believe black hole sucks in things at faster than light speed (hence light can't escape, therefore it being 'black' hole)

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Enyalus
Clearly not the case in the comic world, I know. If Flash hits c, in theory he should be packing infinite mass. But, that's never ever been stated. And Flash has several instances of him fighting at or beyond light speed (his battle with Zoom, for instance, where he was multiple times light speed - if his punches were carrying infinite mass, and Zoom's durability is nearly human...he'd have gotten his face caved in.) Originally posted by Soljer
Not true. As we've seen in the past, the speed force allows the Flash to utilize and ignore whatever laws of physics he pleases.

If he wants to go near-light without the extra mass, he can. If he'd rather allow his mass to approach the infinite in order to deliver a punch, he can.

If he wants to ignore time dilation and actually break the light barrier, he can, if he'd rather utilize that time dilation to make the tiny fraction of a microsecond enough time to evacuate the city, he can do that too.

The speedforce is a fix-all.

Soljer's more concise than I am.

Mindset
Soljer's a liar

kgkg
Infinite is a useless term used and recycled often in comics.

Starscream M
Originally posted by kgkg
Infinite is a useless term used and recycled often in comics. in comics, infinite generally just means alot rather than limitless

Enyalus
Originally posted by Mindset
If a spaceship has infinite mass, wouldn't the fuel have infinite mass?
Sure but, why would a ship have infinite mass?
Originally posted by Starscream M
on a side note...I believe black hole sucks in things at faster than light speed (hence light can't escape, therefore it being 'black' hole)
Not exactly. The gravitational field is so powerful that the escape velocity is above c, hence why light can't escape. So, just like the escape velocity for Earth is just under 7 miles per second, the black hole has so much more mass and is so much denser than the Earth that its escape velocity is above 300,000 mps.

kgkg
Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure but, why would a ship have infinite mass?

Not exactly. The gravitational field is so powerful that the escape velocity is above c, hence why light can't escape. So, just like the escape velocity for Earth is just under 7 miles per second, the black hole has so much more mass and is so much denser than the Earth that its escape velocity is above 300,000 mps. So Gravity > Light Speed?

Mindset
Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure but, why would a ship have infinite mass?

As the ship reaches c it would gain mass, as would the fuel, so theoretically it should be able to reach c.

Enyalus
Originally posted by kgkg
So Gravity > Light Speed?
Gravity is one of the fundamental forces. stick out tongue
Originally posted by Mindset
As the ship reaches c it would gain mass, as would the fuel
Right. The fuel would get heavier. Probably rip through the hull. I don't get how that equates to there being more of it or the fuel getting more powerful?

chomperx9
so who wins ?

kgkg
Originally posted by Enyalus
Gravity is one of the fundamental forces. stick out tongue Unless we take M theory seriously that Gravity's force only seem weaker because Gravitons move in higher plane of reality.

Other than that Gravity is a relativity weak force. For example EM forces are much more powerful.

Starscream M
Originally posted by kgkg
Unless we take M theory seriously that Gravity's force only seem weaker because Gravitons move in higher plane of reality.

Other than that Gravity is a reality weak force. For example EM forces are much more powerful. more powerful...in what sense?

Mindset
Originally posted by Enyalus
Gravity is one of the fundamental forces. stick out tongue

Right. The fuel would get heavier. Probably rip through the hull. I don't get how that equates to there being more of it or the fuel getting more powerful? Wouldn't an increase of mass would mean there should be an increase in the amount of fuel.

kgkg
Originally posted by Starscream M
more powerful...in what sense? Stronger pull. General interactions on this plane of reality.

The other Three force are 10^30 <in average> stronger

ex. Magnet pulling a metal from the ground

tdazz
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Less has stopped him.


No it hasn't.

tdazz
Originally posted by chomperx9
so who wins ?


Juggernaut.

carver9
When has flash ever reach light speed instantly? I have never witnessed that recently, without speed stealing.

SIAFON
I think Juggy wins this easily. The Flash is underrated alot, but Jugg's abilities don't help the Flash at all. Speed stealing won't help since Jugg's ablilities are magical. Running at lightspeed into, or thru Jugg's won't help. His personal forcefield, and the magic of Cyttorak would protect him. Juggy wins.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mindset
Wouldn't an increase of mass would mean there should be an increase in the amount of fuel. Providing the ship itself could handle these stressors, then theoretically, yes. However, this is one of those volume and mass questions.

As you know, mass is the quantity of matter that a body possesses as normally measured by its inertia (gravity has no bearing here.) Volume, on the other hand, is the space occupied as normally measured by cubic units. (ie. volume is the amount of room something takes up - mass is the amount of matter in that something.)

The key factor here is that usually an increase in mass denotes an increase in volume (ie. if you pressurize certain gases, their mass will drastically increase - but so will the volume of space said gas occupies.) Thus, the ship would have to, in some way, allow for nigh-infinite changes such as the above. Variables as simple as those are why we (the human race) can't perceive any solid mass moving at c.

The d=m/v equation would also be helpful to this question. If you don't know the density of a substance, then knowing the volume tells you nothing about the mass, and vice versa.

Of course, all of the above is my speaking from a perspective untainted by the speed force. smile

kgkg
Originally posted by carver9
When has flash ever reach light speed instantly? I have never witnessed that recently, without speed stealing. what does that have to do with anything? confused

carver9
Originally posted by kgkg
what does that have to do with anything? confused

It was something that ws discussed on previous pages that just didnt make sense to me. sad

LDHZenkai
Does juggernaut no longer have his forcefield? And having infinite mass doesn't mean you have infinite durability. When you smash into something going near the speed of light, and that something doesn't move, you either bfr yourself when your brain smashes into your own skull moving at the speed of light, or you die.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Galan007
I see that you did not understand the point of my post. At all.

If I don't get it, it's you're fault not mine. Be more clear and elaborate more, damn it.

mad

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah, the Martian (Zum) instance was even lesser. When Flash IMP'd him in that instance, Zum just reached escape velocity. I've seen several characters hit/throw that hard.

He simply one shotted him and he hit so hard he hit escape velocity.

It is less than a White Dwarf Star's mass compressed and used as a fist.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
When has flash ever reach light speed instantly? I have never witnessed that recently, without speed stealing.

His done it before not to long ago.

He reached faster than light speeds in about one or two steps.

He doesn't need to speed steal to reach those speeds. Post retcon Wally West "might" have some problems, but definetly not Pre retcon Wally West has no problem with that.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Does juggernaut no longer have his forcefield? And having infinite mass doesn't mean you have infinite durability. When you smash into something going near the speed of light, and that something doesn't move, you either bfr yourself when your brain smashes into your own skull moving at the speed of light, or you die.

Wally West has incredible durability.

His hit objects at speeds of light before and his fist isn't jello.

Speed Force = As much durability as you need

SIAFON
I'm aware of the Flash's abilities, but his powers are still considered in the natural laws of the universe. Jugg's powers are magical. I don't see Wally beating him. Maybe landing five quick blows at light speed which would definitely hurt Jugg's but not take him out. After that he raises his force field, heals, and begins a slow attack. Compared to the Flash...

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by SIAFON
I'm aware of the Flash's abilities, but his powers are still considered in the natural laws of the universe. Jugg's powers are magical. I don't see Wally beating him. Maybe landing five quick blows at light speed which would definitely hurt Jugg's but not take him out. After that he raises his force field, heals, and begins a slow attack. Compared to the Flash...

First of all, this isn't a fight.

Second of all, you don't have to use magic to stop Juggernaut. This has been proven. Sufficient force has stopped him cold before.

The Flash's powers are not in the natural laws of the Universe. He breaks the laws of physics constantly, and the Speed Force has shown to affect even the mystically empowered.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
First of all, this isn't a fight.

Second of all, you don't have to use magic to stop Juggernaut. This has been proven. Sufficient force has stopped him cold before.

The Flash's powers are not in the natural laws of the Universe. He breaks the laws of physics constantly, and the Speed Force has shown to affect even the mystically empowered.

Sufficient force as in a God Blast from Thor which is magic and Hulk backed by Celestial technology which is higher than Cyttorak.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Sufficient force as in a God Blast from Thor which is magic and Hulk backed by Celestial technology which is higher than Cyttorak.

Celestial technology has been defeated on a number of occasions, and last I checked, that Celestial technology, wasn't augmenting War Hulk with mystical abilities.

A weakened Thor by the way. A severely weakened Thor.

LDHZenkai
The thing is is the speedforce > Cyttorak. I seriously doubt that. I don't see any speedster being able to even remotely harm cyttorak. And hitting with the force of a white dwarf doesn't matter to juggs. Physical force doesn't harm him. And he's shown he can keep moving forward even if he's being levitated in mid air. Also hitting an immovable object at the speed of light with your "infinite" mass would create a shockwave that would rip the planet apart. Thus killing the flash.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Celestial technology has been defeated on a number of occasions, and last I checked, that Celestial technology, wasn't augmenting War Hulk with mystical abilities.

A weakened Thor by the way. A severely weakened Thor.

All celestial technology isn't the same and as Apoc said it was doing just what he thought it would and it proved to be greater than The Juggernaut. The tech was what made Hulk stop him, not Hulk's strength.

It was still a GB from Thor and it was still magic.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by LDHZenkai
The thing is is the speedforce > Cyttorak. I seriously doubt that. I don't see any speedster being able to even remotely harm cyttorak. And hitting with the force of a white dwarf doesn't matter to juggs. Physical force doesn't harm him. And he's shown he can keep moving forward even if he's being levitated in mid air. Also hitting an immovable object at the speed of light with your "infinite" mass would create a shockwave that would rip the planet apart. Thus killing the flash.

Speed Force doesn't have to be superior to Cytorrak to stop the Juggernaut.

Since when does one have to be superior to Cytorrak to stop Juggernaut?

Beings obviously below Cytorrak stopped Juggernaut before.

Destroying the planet?

This isn't a fight. It's a thread to see whether or not Juggernaut can be stopped by the Flash.

Either way, with his ability to transcend time and space, destroying a planet won't stop him, and Flash has shown he can survive, and run in a vacuum.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
All celestial technology isn't the same and as Apoc said it was doing just what he thought it would and it proved to be greater than The Juggernaut. The tech was what made Hulk stop him, not Hulk's strength.

It was still a GB from Thor and it was still magic.

Last I checked, Celestial technology, is Celestial technology. I don't recall Apocalypse saying that he was using some different brand of Celestial technology in Flash that he wasn't privy to before.

Like I said, the technology amped Hulk, but I don't recall it amping him with mystical abilities of any sort.

True enough.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Last I checked, Celestial technology, is Celestial technology. I don't recall Apocalypse saying that he was using some different brand of Celestial technology in Flash that he wasn't privy to before.

Like I said, the technology amped Hulk, but I don't recall it amping him with mystical abilities of any sort.

True enough.

So there is only one celestial in the MU? Thats like saying the Gem of Cyttorak is equal to the Wand of Watoomb.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
So there is only one celestial in the MU? Thats like saying the Gem of Cyttorak is equal to the Wand of Watoomb.

That's a really faulty analogy.

Last I checked, Apocalypse, doesn't get Celestial technology, from different Celestials, every certain period of time.

He never said that he augmented the Hulk with Celestial technology he did not have access to before.

chomperx9
bump

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
A weakened Thor by the way. A severely weakened Thor.

Will you stop with this nonsense please? Several pages before he uses the GF blast he states clearly that his dizziness spell has been lifted and his strength was returning. In no way was Thor weakened when he fired the GF blast at Juggernaut.

Flash would most likely go splat.

Hyperion Prime
Flash would die a horrible death if he ran into juggernaut. Big deal he is running fast...so what Juggs still has his magic enchantment.

jalek moye
Originally posted by Hyperion Prime
Flash would die a horrible death if he ran into juggernaut. Big deal he is running fast...so what Juggs still has his magic enchantment.
SpeedForce might as well be magic


8th day no way

but flash can stop regular juggernuat if he runs full speed.

Knowsbleed33
There isn't much difference between 8th Day and regular Juggernaut.

If any at all.

jalek moye
everyone says he's vastly more powerful so I assume there is, but never read the arc myself

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by jalek moye
everyone says he's vastly more powerful so I assume there is, but never read the arc myself

That's probably because of his determination and how he handled Thor with ease as opposed to their other two encounters.

jalek moye
so is there a difference or not? was he tapping into more pwoer or somthing?

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by jalek moye
so is there a difference or not? was he tapping into more pwoer or somthing?

Honestly I can't say, both sides have compelling arguments, but IIRC, Cain himself has never said he was feeling more powerful or anything like that. I know Thor did, but Thor doesn't really know Cain's body or Cyttorak. He was however more impressive during that arc.

Knowsbleed33
I base it on what 8th day did. He never did anything regular Juggernaut couldn't do.

chomperx9
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I base it on what 8th day did. He never did anything regular Juggernaut couldn't do. i edited it to be regular juggernaut

Knowsbleed33
My response stands. Flash most likely goes splat.

jalek moye
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
My response stands. Flash most likely goes splat.
how would he go splat, at most he would fall down but he wouldnt die

Knowsbleed33
What's protecting him?

jalek moye
the speedforce

which is how he literally can run straight through things

Knowsbleed33
So then he can't stop Juggernaut in any event? If he doesn't go splat he'll just run through him?

jalek moye
No i'm just saying the speed force stops him from hitting a hard object and dieing. He run through them casuing them to explode, besides the fact that he is very durable. And the speedforce can stop Juggernuat, just depends on how much of it Wally can tap into ,

Knowsbleed33
How do you know the speed force can stop the Juggernaut?

jalek moye
The Speed force itself can literally suck the momentum out of him, no matter how much he gains it can take his speed and movement. it's one of the cosmic forces of the universe and nothing is gonna stop it from flowing. So If wally taps enough into it He will force juggernuat back even if slowly.

His enchantment isn't enough to overcome it, since over thigns have stopped him before. And I don't see why cyttorak would give him equal powers to himself, and if so I doubt Cain is capable of fully tapping into them.

Knowsbleed33
How do you know all this? Perhaps the speed force isn't powerful enough to overcome Juggernaut unstoppability enchantment.

jalek moye
know which part the info about the speed force and what it can do? is explained alot in comics, it can literally take the mommentum out of him. (yes its weird) and he force it self >>>>>>>>>>>>then juggernuats enchantment.


now obviously wally isn't the speed force just like Juggernuat isn't Cyttorak.

So me thinking flash can stop him is just my deduction of the speed force and what wally has done with it. It just depends on how much he can tap into it.

Knowsbleed33
All I see is you speculating. You have no basis for comparison.

jalek moye
yea i said for flash stopping him all we have is speculation. but the speed force itself can speed up or stop anything. Juggernuat is no excepton, he has been stopped before.

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