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Classic Thor.

No Bfr.

what Juggernaut..?

*sits quietly waiting for the age old mistake of putting Classic Juggs in a thread with NO BFR!

Hulks the weaklink team two wins how they dispose of Cain I dont know.

Team two wins.

Thor's already shown, he can negate Juggernaut's invulnerability.

Originally posted by Juk3n
what Juggernaut..?

*sits quietly waiting for the age old mistake of putting Classic Juggs in a thread with NO BFR! Classic Juggs

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team two wins.

Thor's already shown, he can negate Juggernaut's invulnerability.

Swear on Cake it wasn't PIS...

As we all know Juggernaut is especially vulnerable to mystical forces, and we all know that Thor is an incredibly powerful mystical based character.

Seemed on the up and up to me.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
As we all know Juggernaut is especially vulnerable to mystical forces, and we all know that Thor is an incredibly powerful mystical based character.

Seemed on the up and up to me.

Yeah i know that. But the exact scenerio you were refering to, was that PIS or can we just post scan and end debate here (hulk being the weak link by a long mile - and a pretty much non combatant here)..

is all im asking.

Originally posted by Juk3n
Yeah i know that. But the exact scenerio you were refering to, was that PIS or can we just post scan and end debate here (hulk being the weak link by a long mile - and a pretty much non combatant here)..

is all im asking.

Whether or not it's PIS?

I don't think it was.

Is that what you wanted to know?

Seriously, why do people put Juggernaut in a thread with no BFR?

Team One wins.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team two wins.

Thor's already shown, he can negate Juggernaut's invulnerability.

No he hasn't. THe one you are talking about is PIS as his invulnerability is not tied into his FF. They fought three times, one after that incident so why didn't Thor just try to do that again? Mind you the one you're talking about is when Cain was written as a mutant.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
No he hasn't. THe one you are talking about is PIS as his invulnerability is not tied into his FF. They fought three times, one after that incident so why didn't Thor just try to do that again? Mind you the one you're talking about is when Cain was written as a mutant.

How is it PIS, he negated his invulnerability?

Juggernaut was invulnerable without his Force Field in that arc before his Force Field mentioned.

In the incident after that, Juggernaut was in his 8th Day incarnation.

The usual methods wouldn't apply and Thor was probably to surprised by the increase in power.

Team One

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How is it PIS, he negated his invulnerability?

Juggernaut was invulnerable without his Force Field in that arc before his Force Field mentioned.

In the incident after that, Juggernaut was in his 8th Day incarnation.

The usual methods wouldn't apply and Thor was probably to surprised by the increase in power. The 8th day version was more powerful and we do dismiss that altogether. We don't consider King Thor showings for Thor so we don't consider 8th day showings for Juggernaut.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The 8th day version as more powerful and we do dismiss that altogether. We don't consider King Thor showings for Thor so we don't consider 8th day showings for Juggernaut.

Regardless of 8th day or not Cain doesn't need his FF for Mjolnir. In the issues where he used it against him his ff was tied to his invulnerability and he was written as a mutant. 8th day is the only one where he was written well

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Regardless of 8th day or not Cain doesn't need his FF for Mjolnir. In the issues where he used it against him his ff was tied to his invulnerability and he was written as a mutant. 8th day is the only one where he was written well You can't pick and choose which showings to use. You are trying to select based on your bias which showings count and to completely disregard the showing you disagree with. Juggs was amped so it's a no go here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The 8th day version as more powerful and we do dismiss that altogether. We don't consider King Thor showings for Thor so we don't consider 8th day showings for Juggernaut.

Yup, were using Classic Juggernaut and Classic Thor. Explain it to him.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Regardless of 8th day or not Cain doesn't need his FF for Mjolnir. In the issues where he used it against him his ff was tied to his invulnerability and he was written as a mutant. 8th day is the only one where he was written well

Juggernaut was a mystically empowered being in that story. He was clearly referenced as being power by Cytorrak, and Thor used a blast to confirm that he was a mystically enchanted being and his power derived from a mystic source.

Thor did not only cancel out his Force Field, he cancelled out his invulnerability. In that arc, Juggernaut was shown to be invulnerable to Thor's attacks, before his Force Field even came into play as I recall.

i agree that thor didnt only cancel juggernauts force field. however, he could only do it for so long before his attack would again be useless. why couldnt hulk attack him? and stop that theory all together???


as for 8th day juggernaut, i doubt he was amped in power at all. he didnt grow or shrink any... which is what he usually does. if he loses power he becomes smaller. if he gains power, he grows *trion juggernaut*. the only real difference was his state of mind. he was kinda not even in the fight.

either way, team with juggernaut wins. thor and brb cannot take him down more or less off balance him for a minute at a time while they get pummeled sensless in between

Originally posted by quanchi112
You can't pick and choose which showings to use. You are trying to select based on your bias which showings count and to completely disregard the showing you disagree with. Juggs was amped so it's a no go here.

Bias? He was written as a mutant in the other two and his FF was written as the source of his invulnerability. Thats wrong, plain and simple. There is no picking and choosing.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Juggernaut was a mystically empowered being in that story. He was clearly referenced as being power by Cytorrak, and Thor used a blast to confirm that he was a mystically enchanted being and his power derived from a mystic source.

Thor did not only cancel out his Force Field, he cancelled out his invulnerability. In that arc, Juggernaut was shown to be invulnerable to Thor's attacks, before his Force Field even came into play as I recall.

No Cain lost his FF and was getting hurt by Thor's fists and his helmet shattered because he lost his powers and mystical enchantment. In no way was that a full powered Cain, if thats the case then Thor is physically stronger than WWH.

When Thor canceled out his invulnerability he obviously had Juggernaut on the ropes, and the only reason Juggernaut wasn't continuously pummeled into unconscious was because of the 60 second enchantment.

I don't believe it's present here, so after Thor negates his invulnerability, Beta Ray Bill, and Thor pound on him senseless but this time, neither stop.

8th Day Juggernaut was amped beyond his original levels.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
When Thor canceled out his invulnerability he obviously had Juggernaut on the ropes, and the only reason Juggernaut wasn't continuously pummeled into unconscious was because of the 60 second enchantment.

I don't believe it's present here, so after Thor negates his invulnerability, Beta Ray Bill, and Thor pound on him senseless but this time, neither stop.

8th Day Juggernaut was amped beyond his original levels.

Yeah his FF was tied into his invulnerability. His FF came up before Thor landed another punch which showed that he needed his FF to take punches in that issue. PIS.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Yeah his FF was tied into his invulnerability. His FF came up before Thor landed another punch which showed that he needed his FF to take punches in that issue. PIS.

He was shown to be invulnerable in that arc, before his Force Field was even mentioned.

Where does it say he needed his Force Field to be invulnerable?

Thor could suck his life force out or create a tornado and keep juggs in the air until he becomes too dizzy or passe out "not sure if that would work or not"

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Yeah his FF was tied into his invulnerability. His FF came up before Thor landed another punch which showed that he needed his FF to take punches in that issue. PIS. It's canon and you can't rule it out simply because you don't like it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's canon and you can't rule it out simply because you don't like it.

Didn't say it never happened now did I? I said it was PIS, bad writing, big difference.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Didn't say it never happened now did I? I said it was PIS, bad writing, big difference. That's your opinion and not mine. It can be used as evidence.

it was referenced that the force field was his invulnerability. but thor also said he was negating his mystical enegeries. he said all of them, but that obviously wasnt the case. because juggernaut didnt revert back to normal human.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

8th Day Juggernaut was amped beyond his original levels.

because thor said so? i dont think so lol. thor practically speaks hyberbole. i think that was just his way of saying he couldnt win. because traditionally (on several occasions), juggernaut has grown or shrank with loss of power. on panel feats or lack there of. thor simply stating something he believes to be true, doesnt make it so.

Originally posted by KillAll
it was referenced that the force field was his invulnerability. but thor also said he was negating his mystical enegeries. he said all of them, but that obviously wasnt the case. because juggernaut didnt revert back to normal human.




because thor said so? i dont think so lol. thor practically speaks hyberbole. i think that was just his way of saying he couldnt win. because traditionally (on several occasions), juggernaut has grown or shrank with loss of power. on panel feats or lack there of. thor simply stating something he believes to be true, doesnt make it so. Juggernaut was more powerful in that arc. Juggs also agreed. He was about to fulfill his purpose and was more powerful at that point in time.

his purpose? then why is he still around? i think the unredeemed arc gave him a purpose . a living engine of destruction. like i said, in several occasions throughout his history, right up until now he gets bigger, or gets smaller. in that, his mind was altered and i dont even think he knew what he was doing. so i dont think his and thors scientific minds were present to confirm nor deny any gains in power.


juggernaut looked about his normal self. so he was about his normal power. plain and simple. and backed by several on panel feats over the span of several years in several books. hard to argue with that.


as for the original, i dont believe thor would or could do what he did again. for one i dont think juggernaut would fall for it. and i believe would go in more savage than usual. he can and will beat brb or thor down relatively simply if he gets mad. add in wwh? come on now, these 2 are going down (thor and brb).

Originally posted by KillAll
because thor said so? i dont think so lol. thor practically speaks hyberbole. i think that was just his way of saying he couldnt win. because traditionally (on several occasions), juggernaut has grown or shrank with loss of power. on panel feats or lack there of. thor simply stating something he believes to be true, doesnt make it so.

Not because Thor said so but because Juggernaut agreed.

He even said, something was making him that way.

Originally posted by KillAll
as for the original, i dont believe thor would or could do what he did again. for one i dont think juggernaut would fall for it. and i believe would go in more savage than usual. he can and will beat brb or thor down relatively simply if he gets mad. add in wwh? come on now, these 2 are going down (thor and brb).

If Juggernaut gets mad he would beat either of them relatively simply?



That's ridiculous.

Juggernaut isn't exactly the brightest of people. If Thor created a vortex again, I don't see how Juggernaut would be able to prevent him from doing so.

Add in World War Hulk?

Either Classic Thor or Beta Ray Thor beat World War Hulk.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If Juggernaut gets mad he would beat either of them relatively simply?



That's ridiculous.

Juggernaut isn't exactly the brightest of people. If Thor created a vortex again, I don't see how Juggernaut would be able to prevent him from doing so.

Add in World War Hulk?

Either Classic Thor or Beta Ray Thor beat World War Hulk.

Add to the fact that Thor or beta ray bill could tleport all parties into space and considering neither hulk or jugs can fly they would be screwed Jugg and hulks are just high level bricks Thor and bill have a lot more abilities then either of them

Originally posted by DarkOdin
Add to the fact that Thor or beta ray bill could tleport all parties into space and considering neither hulk or jugs can fly they would be screwed
Someone didn't read the OP.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Someone didn't read the OP.

Someone misread what i said. all parties meaning Thor teleports both teams into space and fights there. "He changed the battlefield it was never stated where the had to fight.

That's ghey.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's ghey.

Why b/c Logan and a rope are not parts of the plan.

If Thor takes it to space, Juggy and Hulk will grab their hammers Rulk-style.

Juggernaut has shown to be able to dispatch thor within the pages of a single comic book. make it 2 books and you have brb and thor gone. hulk would help too so it wouldnt take quite that long... hmm, seems simple to me. now add in, that juggernaut is P'od and not just on a normal (hey i think i'll wonder off over here and smash a building) rampage, he could get rid of 1 or the other while hulk holds off the other.

Originally posted by KillAll
his purpose? then why is he still around? i think the unredeemed arc gave him a purpose . a living engine of destruction. like i said, in several occasions throughout his history, right up until now he gets bigger, or gets smaller. in that, his mind was altered and i dont even think he knew what he was doing. so i dont think his and thors scientific minds were present to confirm nor deny any gains in power.


juggernaut looked about his normal self. so he was about his normal power. plain and simple. and backed by several on panel feats over the span of several years in several books. hard to argue with that.


as for the original, i dont believe thor would or could do what he did again. for one i dont think juggernaut would fall for it. and i believe would go in more savage than usual. he can and will beat brb or thor down relatively simply if he gets mad. add in wwh? come on now, these 2 are going down (thor and brb). Did you read the arc?

Thor could not Defeat the Juggernaut. All right Thor makes juggy mad then they fight if thor some how nocks him out or kills him(not happening) but say if it were true. The cyrax the real Juggy lol alright would pound thor and bill with out Hulks help. Remember the Juggernaut(Cain marko) does not know all the Secrets of the cyrax and the real Juggernaut does lol.

Originally posted by KillAll
Juggernaut has shown to be able to dispatch thor within the pages of a single comic book. make it 2 books and you have brb and thor gone. hulk would help too so it wouldnt take quite that long... hmm, seems simple to me. now add in, that juggernaut is P'od and not just on a normal (hey i think i'll wonder off over here and smash a building) rampage, he could get rid of 1 or the other while hulk holds off the other.

The only time, Juggernaut or Thor, ever had a fair fight, Thor would have won if it was not for the 60 second rule.

In their first fight, Thor was severely weakened to the point, where he couldn't stop a cart and he still ended up winning. In their third fight, Juggernaut was amped.

When has Classic Juggernaut dispatched Classic Thor in a comic book?

Just wondering, as both two fights involved circumstance.

In their second fight, where they were both at optimum levels, guess what happened?

Thor, canceled out his invulnerability, and pounded him to near unconsciousness. He can do so again, but there isn't a 60 second time limit here. You said that if Juggernaut got mad, he would quickly dispatch either Thor or Beta Ray Thor. facepalm

That's just ridiculous.

Originally posted by The Red Light
Thor could not Defeat the Juggernaut. All right Thor makes juggy mad then they fight if thor some how nocks him out or kills him(not happening) but say if it were true. The cyrax the real Juggy lol alright would pound thor and bill with out Hulks help. Remember the Juggernaut(Cain marko) does not know all the Secrets of the cyrax and the real Juggernaut does lol.

First of all, who on Earth is the "Cyrax" and since when is he the real Juggernaut?

We are not using fan fiction here. Moving on to the actual comic book characters....

Thor can defeat the Juggernaut, and he can put him down.

Okay, I'm completely confused here.

Who the hell is the real Juggernaut, if he isn't Cain Marko?

Who the hell is "Cyrax"?

You're post doesn't even make sense...

You all have never read the comic when onslaught put cain marko into the Cyrax?

Originally posted by The Red Light
You all have never read the comic when onslaught put cain marko into the Cyrax?

I don't recall there a character appearing by the name of Cyrax.

The only Cyrax I know is from Mortal Kombat.

Hold on, I'm going to go find my issues, and skim through it.

That arc was horribly handled, I hated reading it. I'll see if I missed it.

That Thor issue was PIS. I would think that if Cain can stay conscious with no flesh or organs, only bones and then heal, a few punches to the head could easily be taken care of by his healing factor. Cain also had alot of his power drained in that incident where he was left standing as a skeleton.

As mentioned by others, Cain was written as a mutant by that writer. He just didn't understand Juggernaut's character, nor that his shield is not the source of his invulnurability.

As for the 8th day arc, Cain didn't receive any power up. He was just more focused and had a much better understanding of his abilities and was able to draw on more power. An editor at the time of the 8th Day arc even said he didn't receive a power up.

Also, Onslaught put Cain into the gem of Cyttorak.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
As for the 8th day arc, Cain didn't receive any power up. He was just more focused and had a much better understanding of his abilities and was able to draw on more power. An editor at the time of the 8th Day arc even said he didn't receive a power up.
I didn't know this. Very interesting.

Originally posted by Enyalus
If Thor takes it to space, Juggy and Hulk will grab their hammers Rulk-style.


Hmmm you went Loebpower on me.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That Thor issue was PIS. I would think that if Cain can stay conscious with no flesh or organs, only bones and then heal, a few punches to the head could easily be taken care of by his healing factor. Cain also had alot of his power drained in that incident where he was left standing as a skeleton.

I know what you are referring to as I have read it numerous times, but take into account Thor said he canceled all of the mystical power in the area. He didn't do all of it, but Thor has been known to over exaggerate, but who knows to what extent he did cancel the mystical energy in the area.

If he can cancel his famed invulnerability, then I wouldn't be surprised, if he was able to put Cain down.

Also just because you have a tremendous healing factor, does not mean you cannot be knocked out. Beings such as Hulk, Lobo prove so, and they have all been reduced to skeletons etc.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
As mentioned by others, Cain was written as a mutant by that writer. He just didn't understand Juggernaut's character, nor that his shield is not the source of his invulnurability.

Mutant?

As I recall, it was clearly stated that the Juggernaut's power comes from Cytorrak and he was mystically empowered in that issue, also he was shown to be invulnerable without his Force Field in that arc.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
As for the 8th day arc, Cain didn't receive any power up. He was just more focused and had a much better understanding of his abilities and was able to draw on more power. An editor at the time of the 8th Day arc even said he didn't receive a power up.

I don't know about the editor part, but Juggernaut was obviously amped in that comic. He was more powerful than ever before.

Thor clearly says, that he is more powerful than ever before, and as you can see, Juggernaut agrees. He says, something's making him that way etc.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/th_Juggernautaugmented.jpg

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Also, Onslaught put Cain into the gem of Cyttorak.

I know, but he said "Cyrax" and I was confused. I had thought I missed something.

Team 1, because I'm a fanboy of the Mighty Hulk

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Also just because you have a tremendous healing factor, does not mean you cannot be knocked out. Beings such as Hulk, Lobo prove so, and they have all been reduced to skeletons etc.

Only difference is that Hulk couldn't stand as just a skeleton. Plus I don't think Hulk was completely reduced to just bones. He still had some meat, not much though.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mutant?

As I recall, it was clearly stated that the Juggernaut's power comes from Cytorrak and he was mystically empowered in that issue, also he was shown to be invulnerable without his Force Field in that arc.


The same writer produce both Thor vs Juggernaut fights. In the first fight, Juggernaut was labeled a mutant twice.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't know about the editor part, but Juggernaut was obviously amped in that comic. He was more powerful than ever before.

Thor clearly says, that he is more powerful than ever before, and as you can see, Juggernaut agrees. He says, something's making him that way etc.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/th_Juggernautaugmented.jpg


I know, but he said "Cyrax" and I was confused. I had thought I missed something.

When Juggernaut said that, he most likely meant that something was making him more focused and as a result he was able to draw on more power.

The 8th Day arc is somewhat confusing. When Cain accessed the powers of Cyttorak it was supposed to set off a chain reaction. This reaction was supposed to "activate" the other relics and draw a suitable vessel for each. The way this was supposed to happen was inscriptions on the walls of the mountain that the gem. But when Cain found the gem the mountain was bombarded with mortar fire and the inscriptions were destroyed, postponing the 8th Day event.

It was later triggered when another relic was found. This put all of the avatars under some kind of trance, giving them full knowledge of their powers and a desire to want to complete their task, Cain included. Now with a better understanding of his power, he was able to access more of it.

wait people think thor can beat juggernaut despite the fact on panel he shrugged off the god blast like it wasn't shit? I'm drunk right now and even i realize that thor can't hurt thor without bfr'ing him. and didn't the last time thor bfr'd him juggs ended up taking over the planet he got teleported to? Thors power is far less than Cyttoraks.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Only difference is that Hulk couldn't stand as just a skeleton. Plus I don't think Hulk was completely reduced to just bones. He still had some meat, not much though.

He was crouching as I recall as a skeleton. He was also reduced to a skeleton just as Lobo was.

An amazing healing factor does not mean you cannot be knocked out. For the Juggernaut his durability made this seem unlikely, but Thor has the ability to remove that meaning, he can put Cain down. Not permanently but enough to be considered a win.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
The same writer produce both Thor vs Juggernaut fights. In the first fight, Juggernaut was labeled a mutant twice.

Labeled as a mutant?

Is that a result of the New Warriors and/or Thor mistaking him for a mutant?

I'm at school so I don't have the issue available at the moment. Either way, the Juggernaut was correctly shown to draw from the power of Cytorrak in the second fight. He was shown to be empowered. Also the Juggernaut was shown to be invulnerable barring his Force Field in the first fight, as I recall since you are using the first fight.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
When Juggernaut said that, he most likely meant that something was making him more focused and as a result he was able to draw on more power.

Thor said he was amped and the Juggernaut clearly agreed. The meaning seems rather clear.

What else is there to it?

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
The 8th Day arc is somewhat confusing. When Cain accessed the powers of Cyttorak it was supposed to set off a chain reaction. This reaction was supposed to "activate" the other relics and draw a suitable vessel for each. The way this was supposed to happen was inscriptions on the walls of the mountain that the gem. But when Cain found the gem the mountain was bombarded with mortar fire and the inscriptions were destroyed, postponing the 8th Day event.

The arc seemed clear enough to me. This statement does not change what was said in the comic book. You found confusing, which fortunately I did not, but whether it was confusing or not, does not change what was said.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It was later triggered when another relic was found. This put all of the avatars under some kind of trance, giving them full knowledge of their powers and a desire to want to complete their task, Cain included. Now with a better understanding of his power, he was able to access more of it.

Dude, Cain was amped. The 8th Day Juggernaut is superior to Classic Juggernaut. If we start using more powerful incarnations, I'll start with Thor with the Odin Force.

Soul suck or enchantment-breaking works. Team 1 can't fly, so it's easy for BRB and Thor to pick off whoever they want.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
wait people think thor can beat juggernaut despite the fact on panel he shrugged off the god blast like it wasn't shit? I'm drunk right now and even i realize that thor can't hurt thor without bfr'ing him. and didn't the last time thor bfr'd him juggs ended up taking over the planet he got teleported to? Thors power is far less than Cyttoraks.

Shrugged it off? Is that why Cain was afraid and pushed back? And you know, sent away? When you shrug things off you're not forced into something. Learn how to differ. Exagerrating never helped anyone.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
wait people think thor can beat juggernaut despite the fact on panel he shrugged off the god blast like it wasn't shit? I'm drunk right now and even i realize that thor can't hurt thor without bfr'ing him. and didn't the last time thor bfr'd him juggs ended up taking over the planet he got teleported to? Thors power is far less than Cyttoraks.

Shrugged off?

What's you're definition of shrugged off?

My certainly isn't, what Cain did to the God Blast. Besides Thor was severely weakened there, to the point he was only a shadow of his true self and that's obvious by the level of power the God Blast he used against Juggernaut was.

Thor's power doesn't have to be above Cytorrak's to beat Cain.

Either way, enchantment negation for the win!

Juggernaut was written as a mutant in one of the narrator bubbles.

I still don't believe he was amped. There was nothing to say he was amped by an outside force. He could have easily been drawing on more power himself. You can believe what you want, I don't care. But I'll take the words of the Marvel Editor over yours, and what you think is meant by the above scan.

8th Day Juggernaut is what he is intended to be. He knows how to use his power. Thor only said he was stronger, not amped by something else. Cain being focused and wanting something is what is making him stronger. There are other issues that show this as well.

Hulk wasn't left with just his skeleton either. He has some flesh left, albeit just a little.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Juggernaut was written as a mutant in one of the narrator bubbles.

I still don't believe he was amped. There was nothing to say he was amped by an outside force. He could have easily been drawing on more power himself. You can believe what you want, I don't care. But I'll take the words of the Marvel Editor over yours, and what you think is meant by the above scan.

8th Day Juggernaut is what he is intended to be. He knows how to use his power. Thor only said he was stronger, not amped by something else. Cain being focused and wanting something is what is making him stronger. There are other issues that show this as well.

Hulk wasn't left with just his skeleton either. He has some flesh left, albeit just a little.

One of the narrator bubbles?

Well, at least they corrected that stupidity.

There is nothing to suggest he was amped?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/th_Juggernautaugmented.jpg

Dude it's rather clear. Read the words.

I never said there was an outside force, and frankly I don't care how he was amped, just that he was. Whether Cytorrak gave him more access to his power or not, it doesn't matter.

It's clear that Juggernaut is more powerful during 8th Day than he is in his Classic incarnation. How anyone could argue otherwise is beyond me.

I mean, he knows himself better, than others would, and he knows he was amped. He even says, that he is a God "now". Indicating that he holds himself in higher regard in power than he did before. There are instances such as those, that prove he was above his Classic levels.

Thor said he was more powerful than ever and Juggernaut agreed. He clearly says, something is making him that way etc.

I have never seen Classic Juggernaut's wanting something amping himself significantly to the levels he showed here.

Using 8th Day Juggernaut as a comparison to how well Classic Juggernaut would do in a fight is just illogical. It's akin to using Rune King Thor. A more powerful incarnation.

You can't base what would happen in a fight, between Classic Thor and Classic Juggernaut on how the fight between Classic Thor and 8th Day Juggernaut went. That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's clear that Juggernaut is more powerful during 8th Day than he is in his Classic incarnation. How anyone could argue otherwise is beyond me.

I mean, he knows himself better, than others would, and he knows he was amped. He even says, that he is a God "now". Indicating that he holds himself in higher regard in power than he did before. There are instances such as those, that prove he was above his Classic levels.

Okay, we misunderstood each other here. I wasn't arguing that Juggernaut wasn't stronger. I agree he was stronger in that instance. I was trying to say that there was no amping by outside forces, only that Cain himself could do that. Something that hasn't happened again. I may not have typed my thoughts clearly enough, maybe still haven't gotten what I wanted to say across.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I have never seen Classic Juggernaut's wanting something amping himself significantly to the levels he showed here.

Using 8th Day Juggernaut as a comparison to how well Classic Juggernaut would do in a fight is just illogical. It's akin to using Rune King Thor. A more powerful incarnation.

In a Juggernaut one shot, D'Spraye said he took "all" of Juggernaut's power. Yet he was surprised to see Juggernaut still standing. Juggernaut's rage was able to fuel him and grant him access to more power.

Using 8th Day Juggernaut and Rune King/Odin Force Thor are not the same. 8th Day Juggernaut was still drawing on more power he has access to. Also, he isn't an incarnation of Juggernaut. All this is, was just an instance where Juggernaut was able to reach those levels of power because of the situation.

Rune King/Odin Force Thor is different. Neither of those was Thor drawing on more of HIS power. That was power literally given to him by Odin, or power he acquired from the Runes.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


If he can cancel his famed invulnerability, then I wouldn't be surprised, if he was able to put Cain down.



He put him down? When? Thor has never ko'd Cain, ever. Cain has 2 ko victories on him so you can't say he put Cain down at all.

thor loses to hulk regularly
Team 1

Originally posted by manx422
thor loses to hulk regularly
Team 1

I thought it was the other way around.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Okay, we misunderstood each other here. I wasn't arguing that Juggernaut wasn't stronger. I agree he was stronger in that instance. I was trying to say that there was no amping by outside forces, only that Cain himself could do that. Something that hasn't happened again. I may not have typed my thoughts clearly enough, maybe still haven't gotten what I wanted to say across.

I never said an outside force amped him. It was still Cytorrak's power that was empowering him just like always. He simply gained more power in that arc from Cytorrak as I recall. As stated, he was more powerful than ever before, and was never shown to reach that level of power again.

Hence why you can't judge base you're opinion on how Classic Juggernaut would do against Classic Thor based on how 8th Day Juggernaut did.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
In a Juggernaut one shot, D'Spraye said he took "all" of Juggernaut's power. Yet he was surprised to see Juggernaut still standing. Juggernaut's rage was able to fuel him and grant him access to more power.

It was never stated he gained access to more power as I recall. He was significantly weakened, but his immortality was active to an extent.

It has never stated nor shown, that Juggernaut if angry enough, can access more power and reach levels that he did, in the 8th Day Saga.

I have the issue open right now, and it was never stated he accessed more power etc.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Using 8th Day Juggernaut and Rune King/Odin Force Thor are not the same. 8th Day Juggernaut was still drawing on more power he has access to. Also, he isn't an incarnation of Juggernaut. All this is, was just an instance where Juggernaut was able to reach those levels of power because of the situation.

I did not mean he is a different Juggernaut, but we use him as a separate incarnation as he was more powerful than his Classic form. 8th Day Juggernaut was more powerful, because he was given access to more power. He doesn't become that powerful on a whim, or can draw on it in battle. That's the reason his was only at those levels during 8th Day.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Rune King/Odin Force Thor is different. Neither of those was Thor drawing on more of HIS power. That was power literally given to him by Odin, or power he acquired from the Runes.

Dude, Juggernaut doesn't draw on his own power, he draws power from Cytorrak. He was given more power by Cytorrak and allowed more access to power.

Thor inherited the Odin Force just like he was meant to.

Both Thor and Juggernaut are more powerful than usual, because they are given access to power that is otherwise beyond their grasp.

Originally posted by manx422
thor loses to hulk regularly
Team 1

How about you actually read their fights, before you make a comment about it?

Hulk has never beaten Thor. While Thor has knocked out the Hulk on different occasions, and has never been taken down by the Hulk while Thor has smacked the Hulk around, to the point where Hulk resorts to hostages. Not to mention Thor holds back his the majority of his strength/power against the Hulk as he has stated.

Exactly, when does Hulk regularly beat Thor?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus



Dude, Juggernaut doesn't draw on his own power, he draws power from Cytorrak. He was given more power by Cytorrak and allowed more access to power.



Actually Cyttorak has never given him more power nor has he ever taken it away.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How about you actually read their fights, before you make a comment about it?

Hulk has never beaten Thor. While Thor has knocked out the Hulk on different occasions, and has never been taken down by the Hulk while Thor has smacked the Hulk around, to the point where Hulk resorts to hostages. Not to mention Thor holds back his the majority of his strength/power against the Hulk as he has stated.

Exactly, when does Hulk regularly beat Thor?

Hulk beat him like twice IIRC.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Hulk beat him like twice IIRC.

When has Hulk beaten him twice?

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Actually Cyttorak has never given him more power nor has he ever taken it away.

Juggernaut has lost the power of Cytorrak, and he was given more access to his power in 8th Day unless an outside force besides Cytorrak was amping him. Cain clearly said something was making him that way. Making him stronger than ever. I would imagine he was referring to Cytorrak as he his engine of destruction.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Juggernaut has lost the power of Cytorrak, and he was given more access to his power in 8th Day unless an outside force besides Cytorrak was amping him. Cain clearly said something was making him that way. Making him stronger than ever. I would imagine he was referring to Cytorrak as he his engine of destruction.

He lost the power of Cyttorak but Cyttorak didn't take it away from him. Cain weakened himself. The will to do something was making him feel that way.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
He lost the power of Cyttorak but Cyttorak didn't take it away from him. Cain weakened himself. The will to do something was making him feel that way.

Cain stopped being the engine of destruction and he lost the power, and was weakened. I don't have it with me right now (At school.) but as I recall, he was asking Cytorrak to restore his power. Can you check, as I don't have the issue with me to double check?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cain stopped being the engine of destruction and he lost the power, and was weakened. I don't have it with me right now (At school.) but as I recall, he was asking Cytorrak to restore his power. Can you check, as I don't have the issue with me to double check?

All of that is true but Cyttorak himself said that he (Cyttorak) was not weakening him. Cain tried using his powers for good and that can not happen. Cyttorak's power is not meant for good deeds, and if the avatar tries to do so then they lose their powers. Cyttorak did not touch Cain's power at all. He got so weak and soft that he sought out a replacement.

Cain tried to go against Cytorrak's wishes and his job as the engine of destruction and he lost his power. Cytorrak did not take away his power, but Cain was denied access when he tried to use them for good. He had to agree to be the engine of destruction to gain access again.

Hell, I never even said anything about Cytorrak taking away his powers, you're the one who brought it up. Either way, it's not like Cytorrak can't take them away.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Cain tried to go against Cytorrak's wishes and his job as the engine of destruction and he lost his power. Cytorrak did not take away his power, but Cain was denied access when he tried to use them for good. He had to agree to be the engine of destruction to gain access again.

Hell, I never even said anything about Cytorrak taking away his powers, you're the one who brought it up. Either way, it's not like Cytorrak can't take them away.

Cain denied himself of the powers. He didn't really get the powers back because he just agreed. His mind was back to the way it used to be, kill and destroy. HE was focused again like he used to be. Cyttorak himself said he didn't weaken him.

No, Cain was denied the power when he tried to use them for good. He had to become the engine of destruction again, to get them back. He had to agree, to destroy and kill, to gain his powers.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Hulk beat him like twice IIRC.

I'd like to see you back up those ridiculous claims.

Team 2.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
As stated, he was more powerful than ever before, and was never shown to reach that level of power again.

Actually, The Juggernaut was able to reach a far greater power level. During the Trion incident, an evil force enlisted the power of Cyttorak. In doing so that were able to control Juggernaut, using his abilities it was able to access more power.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It was never stated he gained access to more power as I recall. He was significantly weakened, but his immortality was active to an extent.

It has never stated nor shown, that Juggernaut if angry enough, can access more power and reach levels that he did, in the 8th Day Saga.

I have the issue open right now, and it was never stated he accessed more power etc.

In the issue Cain says that rage feeds the Juggernaut. D'Spraye said he took all of Cains power, yet he stood there with more power.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
8th Day Juggernaut was more powerful, because he was given access to more power. He doesn't become that powerful on a whim, or can draw on it in battle.

He wasn't given that power. He had a better understanding of his abilities and was able to draw on more power. As mentioned by Wei Phoenix, Cyttorak has said he isn't the one restricting Cains power.

Even Editors have said Cain has unlimited power to draw on. It's just during the 8th Day arc, he has never wanted something that bad.

Editor comment on Juggernaut's ability to drawn on more power.

There is also a more recent one, stating pretty much the same thing.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Dude, Juggernaut doesn't draw on his own power, he draws power from Cytorrak. He was given more power by Cytorrak and allowed more access to power.

Thor inherited the Odin Force just like he was meant to.

Both Thor and Juggernaut are more powerful than usual, because they are given access to power that is otherwise beyond their grasp.

Big difference. Juggernaut is an avatar of Cyttorak. When he accesses more of his abilities, others still see him as Juggernaut. He still gives off the same "energy signature" if you will. But when Thor has access to the Odin force, he gives off Odin's signature. When Borr was raised again, he sensed his son, Odin, when he fought Thor. He even said that Thor had stolen Odin's power.


My main arguement is that Juggernaut can get stronger. He may not need to reach 8th Day levels and probably won't for this fight. I don't really want to come off saying that Juggernaut reaches 8th Day levels for this fight. Only that he can draw on more power.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I'd like to see you back up those ridiculous claims.

No seriously. They fought about 4-5 times. Thor won three times (I think 1 was a stalemate) and Hulk definitely won twice. I'll try to find the sources for you.

Thor can't beat Juggernaut w/o BFR, never has.

Team 1 wins.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Thor can't beat Juggernaut w/o BFR, never has.

Team 1 wins.

Negating his enchantment, and beating the ugly out of him should work. He almost did it last time but he had the 60 second limitation.

What about stealing his soul/life force?

Thor knew how long he had and he still couldn't drop the Juggernaut despite "negating" his FF/Invulnerability enchantment.

Cains soul is bonded to the gem. There will be no stealing it.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Thor knew how long he had and he still couldn't drop the Juggernaut despite "negating" his FF/Invulnerability enchantment.

Cains soul is bonded to the gem. There will be no stealing it.

He negated his invulnerability to conventional harm, but Juggernaut was still far from vulnerable. He still had some Class 100 plus attributes, and Thor still almost dropped him in 3 hits. He was about to lay him out, when his hammer returned.

Without the hammer limitations, Thor would have dropped him. I'm assuming he doesn't have such limitations here.

So, Cain has shown resistance/immunity, to having his soul/life force stolen drained? Or is this speculation?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He negated his invulnerability to conventional harm, but Juggernaut was still far from vulnerable. He still had some Class 100 plus attributes, and Thor still almost dropped him in 3 hits. He was about to lay him out, when his hammer returned.

Without the hammer limitations, Thor would have dropped him. I'm assuming he doesn't have such limitations here.

He negated his FF as stated by the writer. This would be an example of what PIS really is, Rage. We all know his FF isn't the source of his invulnerability.



His soul belongs to Cyttorak. You think Thor has the power to take Cains soul from Cyttorak?

He doesn't.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He negated his FF as stated by the writer. This would be an example of what PIS really is, Rage. We all know his FF isn't the source of his invulnerability.

As I recall, it was clearly stated that Thor not only removed his Force Field that made him untouchable, but his invulnerability as well. He was shown to be invulnerable despite the Force Field in the same arc.

I don't see the problem here.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
His soul belongs to Cyttorak. You think Thor has the power to take Cains soul from Cyttorak?

He doesn't.

It can still belong to Cytorrak, but it won't be in Cain's body anymore. Mjolnir was powerful enough to cancel out his enchantment. Just saying.....

Juggernaut only has a portion of Cytorrak's power.

This is a stupid fight, Juggernaut gives team 1 the 10/10 win. Even though Jugs had the one low showing against Thor, his other showings after that presents him as being able to out right shit stomp thor without bfr.

I love thor and especially brb but they're losing this. Team 1 is basically the ultimate team, two of the unstoppables.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
As I recall, it was clearly stated that Thor not only removed his Force Field that made him untouchable, but his invulnerability as well. He was shown to be invulnerable despite the Force Field in the same arc.

I don't see the problem here.

It's apparent you didn't read the comic in question. It states quite clearly that he negated the FF. The writer makes that point even clearer when the 60 seconds is up and we visually see Juggernauts FF reactivate.

Also, people blow this showing way out of proportion. Thor was no where near defeating Juggernaut. Right before the 60 seconds is up Juggernaut is still standing there mocking Thor. Juggernaut still drops Thor with one punch after Thor negates his FF.

The reason why we've never seen Thor do this again is probably because of ridiculous it was. The writers don't want to go near it.



What do you think this is going to accomplish anyway?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
It's apparent you didn't read the comic in question. It states quite clearly that he negated the FF. The writer makes that point even clearer when the 60 seconds is up and we visually see Juggernauts FF reactivate.

Actually I have the comic right here. It was stated that his Force Field was negated, and then it was stated, his invulnerability was negated. The statement about his Force Field being negated, was even separate from the statement about his invulnerability being negated. His Force Field came up when the hammer came back, because that was one of the enchantments it negated.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Also, people blow this showing way out of proportion. Thor was no where near defeating Juggernaut. Right before the 60 seconds is up Juggernaut is still standing there mocking Thor. Juggernaut still drops Thor with one punch after Thor negates his FF.

Juggernaut still retained his own immense strength as shown. That's why he was able to knock Thor back.

We see Juggernaut supporting himself up on a wall, holding his head in pain, and they even draw stars over Juggernaut's head. Thor was about to finish him off, when the hammer returned.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The reason why we've never seen Thor do this again is probably because of ridiculous it was. The writers don't want to go near it.

His only fought Juggernaut one more time after that, and that was him at his 8th Day levels.....

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
What do you think this is going to accomplish anyway?

If it works, ummm defeating him....

Just post the scan already. Or at least tell me what vol plus issue it took place. And I will post it.

Anyhow negating its force field is significant. Just how all of this factors in, is up for debate.

Ask and you shall receive.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_JuggernautvsThor5.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_JuggernautvsThor6.jpghttp://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/th_JuggernautvsThor7.jpg

Originally posted by Juk3n
what Juggernaut..?

*sits quietly waiting for the age old mistake of putting Classic Juggs in a thread with NO BFR!

Indeed

Juggs can be defeated without BFR


http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/7060/vs_Thor1c.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/7060/vs_Thor1c2.jpg

Originally posted by shokosugi
Juggs can be defeated without BFR


http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/7060/vs_Thor1c.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Neptune/7060/vs_Thor1c2.jpg lol... he got BFR'ed in that fight.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Actually I have the comic right here. It was stated that his Force Field was negated, and then it was stated, his invulnerability was negated. The statement about his Force Field being negated, was even separate from the statement about his invulnerability being negated. His Force Field came up when the hammer came back, because that was one of the enchantments it negated.

Goodness. Thor says he negated the FF, Cain follows by saying that Thor took away his invulnerability implying that the FF was the source of it. It's quite clear considering when the 60 seconds is up the only difference is his FF is back up.




That's what you got from those panels? I see that, despite Thors best efforts, he's no match for Juggernaut physically.




And?




How?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Goodness. Thor says he negated the FF, Cain follows by saying that Thor took away his invulnerability implying that the FF was the source of it. It's quite clear considering when the 60 seconds is up the only difference is his FF is back up.

Maybe that's the way, you see it. Thor says he negated his Force Field. Then in a separate statement, Cain says he took away his invulnerability. In that arc, it was shown that Cain is invulnerable without his Force Field as I recall. The Force Field is not the only difference, it's just the only difference we can see physically.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
That's what you got from those panels? I see that, despite Thors best efforts, he's no match for Juggernaut physically.

No match for Juggernaut physically?

That's just plain and pure biased. How you can get that from those scans is beyond me.

Cain, drops Thor with a hit on his head. Thor is unharmed, gets back up, starts whaling on Cain, and when Thor is about to deliver the finishing blow, the hammer returns.

Yes. Definitely no match....

Just pure biased, right there.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
And?

You said, that we never saw Thor to this again because it was ridiculous. My point was that they only fought one more time after that, and even that fight got interrupted before it got too serious.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
How?

Like I said, if it works, he could win, by stealing Cain's soul/life force.

We will finish this tomorrow. I'm going to bed now.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Maybe that's the way, you see it. Thor says he negated his Force Field. Then in a separate statement, Cain says he took away his invulnerability. In that arc, it was shown that Cain is invulnerable without his Force Field as I recall. The Force Field is not the only difference, it's just the only difference we can see physically.

Now you're just being difficult. It was obvious the writer intended to demonstrate that the FF was the source of Juggernauts invulnerability




Nothing there to suggest otherwise. Yeah, Juggernaut was dazed, but he's still standing and even mocking Thor. I don't see any indication that Juggernaut was one hit away from being KO'ed/





Ok, why didn't he do it the first time they met? He uses his most powerful lightning attack then drops the GF blast on him. Why waste the time when he could've just negated his FF/invulnerability?




Again I ask, what exactly do you think this is going to do to the Juggernaut?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Now you're just being difficult. It was obvious the writer intended to demonstrate that the FF was the source of Juggernauts invulnerability

According to you. From what I read, he was trying to show that Thor negated his Force Field "and" invulnerability. Didn't that same writer show that Juggernaut is invulnerable without his Force Field, in the arc leading up to that issue?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Nothing there to suggest otherwise. Yeah, Juggernaut was dazed, but he's still standing and even mocking Thor. I don't see any indication that Juggernaut was one hit away from being KO'ed/

eer

There is nothing to suggest, that Thor is a match for Juggernaut physically?

Are you joking me with this statement?

He was supporting himself on the pillar, holding his head in his hand, dazed. He couldn't even stand straight. Thor was done playing around and was about to knock him out.

What am I basing it on?

What did you call it again? "Writer's intention".

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Ok, why didn't he do it the first time they met? He uses his most powerful lightning attack then drops the GF blast on him. Why waste the time when he could've just negated his FF/invulnerability?

Because in their first encounter Thor was as weak as my Grandma. He could barely stop flying carts. Venom could have probably taken him at that time. Not even Thor would think clearly under those conditions.

He drops a lighting attack on him to no effect. Then tries to God Blast him. That was the only time he even puts up something similar to a defense against Juggernaut in their first fight.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Again I ask, what exactly do you think this is going to do to the Juggernaut?

Defeat him.....

Team 2 7/10

Originally posted by Uxas Khan
Team 2 7/10

The supposed force-field works both ways in that fight. Juggernaut also used his forcefield much more active in any other fight.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
According to you. From what I read, he was trying to show that Thor negated his Force Field "and" invulnerability. Didn't that same writer show that Juggernaut is invulnerable without his Force Field, in the arc leading up to that issue?



eer



actually i think they reference juggernauts force field and thors hammer several times together. juggernauts force field is what stops it, keeps him protected etc, etc.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

There is nothing to suggest, that Thor is a match for Juggernaut physically?

Are you joking me with this statement?

He was supporting himself on the pillar, holding his head in his hand, dazed. He couldn't even stand straight. Thor was done playing around and was about to knock him out.





What am I basing it on?

What did you call it again? "Writer's intention".



without negating his magics, he is no match for juggernaut. the writer of the next fight (8th day) even takes care to note that juggernaut isnt using his force field. who is to say that juggernaut wasnt using HIS power in the 8th day arc? you keep saying he was amped and he agrees. well what if FOCUS or ANGER was what was making him "that way" in the 8th day/thor story. i dont personally believe he was amped at all. thor in all fights has teleported juggernaut from the arena to win. except in 8th day, where somebody else teleported him out. even when thor was "winning", he teleported him promptly after juggernaut healed. you keep saying thor was going to finish juggernaut off also and he was seeing "stars", but its a burden of proof you have to provide that thor could have actually did it. because he has NEVER done it before and juggernaut on panel has never physically been knocked out. so its safe to say that it wouldnt have happened.


Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Because in their first encounter Thor was as weak as my Grandma. He could barely stop flying carts. Venom could have probably taken him at that time. Not even Thor would think clearly under those conditions.

He drops a lighting attack on him to no effect. Then tries to God Blast him. That was the only time he even puts up something similar to a defense against Juggernaut in their first fight.



Defeat him.....


you stated that thor was weak in the fight with the godblast. therefor making it a weak godblast that he used. but since you have the issue, scan over it again. when thor wakes up from being unconscious he stated that the sickness "flees my limbs". he used a full force godblast on juggernaut.