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No equipment for anyone. Fight to the death or KO for 10 seconds. Shiva is recuperated to full health before each fight.

1. Punisher
2. Bullseye
3. Taskmaster
4. Daredevil
5. Elektra
6. Captain America
7. Wolverine (no claws)

How far does Shiva get?

Clears it, with Wolverine being the hardest fight.

stops at 6

#5...


...Could go either way.

starts having trouble at 3 and it's uphill from then.

I say Daredevil takes her out, shows her what ninja skills are all about.

Originally posted by Juk3n
starts having trouble at 3 and it's uphill from then.

I say Daredevil takes her out, shows her what ninja skills are all about.

3, IMO.

As a Martial Artist, I think she's better than anyone on the list. If its just a fight to the death, she's going to start having serious issues at 3 and I think she definately falls at 6 if not sooner.

You know people always say stuuf like that but I dont thin k its conclusive thats shes a better martial artist than all of them, for starters Cap knows at least one martial art.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know people always say stuuf like that but I dont thin k its conclusive thats shes a better martial artist than all of them, for starters Cap knows at least one martial art. Gets the job done.
-----------------




Shiva stop at #3

She will definitely have trouble at 3. Her getting past a non jobbing Taskmaster will be difficult if it all doable. It doesn't get any better from there.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know people always say stuuf like that but I dont thin k its conclusive thats shes a better martial artist than all of them, for starters Cap knows at least one martial art.

I'm pretty sure Shiva knows more than one type of Martial Arts. Do I think Shiva's a better fighter than Cap,,,,,,No. A better Martial Artist,,,,Yes.

I don't see her beating Daredevil, Cap or Wolverine for the majority of times.

Electra and Taskmaster are no jokes either but Shiva can pull these off a little easier then say Cap or Wolverine who are at another level.

Originally posted by tkitna
I'm pretty sure Shiva knows more than one type of Martial Arts. Do I think Shiva's a better fighter than Cap,,,,,,No. A better Martial Artist,,,,Yes.

You're not telling me that you think Cap knows only one martial art or a few.

Originally posted by Starscream M
No equipment for anyone. Fight to the death or KO for 10 seconds. Shiva is recuperated to full health before each fight.

1. Punisher
2. Bullseye
3. Taskmaster
4. Daredevil
5. Elektra
6. Captain America
7. Wolverine (no claws)

How far does Shiva get?

in terms of skill, i think she's superior to everyone there, but there is the problem of the various guys' physical and mental attributes to consider...

not sure at this point...

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You're not telling me that you think Cap knows only one martial art or a few.

No, i'm reacting to you saying that Cap knows at least one type of Martial Arts.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
Electra and Taskmaster are no jokes either but Shiva can pull these off a little easier then say Cap or Wolverine who are at another level. no

Originally posted by Juk3n
starts having trouble at 3 and it's uphill from then.

I say Daredevil takes her out, shows her what ninja skills are all about. QFT



Jesus..

Ya know to think about it, even 1 and 2 would be incredibly difficult for her to win with fists alone. Both Punisher and Bullseye have massive damage soak and putting either one of them out of a fight completely is going to be difficult.

^ Yea but she knows the Leopard blow, second only to the bat-kick.

Originally posted by Placidity
^ Yea but she knows the Leopard blow, second only to the bat-kick.




Also QFT!

Originally posted by tkitna
No, i'm reacting to you saying that Cap knows at least one type of Martial Arts.

shit lol that was supposed to be at least one alien martial art....im doing typos galore.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
I don't see her beating Daredevil, Cap or Wolverine for the majority of times.

Electra and Taskmaster are no jokes either but Shiva can pull these off a little easier then say Cap or Wolverine who are at another level.

Uh, Wolverine isn't "on another level" than Elektra.


He's pretty much said so himself in Wolverine v3 #30-31. I'd post the scan, but I'm not allowed. First page of Gorgon's respect thread if you're interested.


Oh, and Shiva still clears it.

Originally posted by Konton
Uh, Wolverine isn't "on another level" than Elektra.


He's pretty much said so himself in Wolverine v3 #30-31. I'd post the scan, but I'm not allowed. First page of Gorgon's respect thread if you're interested.


Oh, and Shiva still clears it.

His superhuman stats and immense damage soak put him on another level. Experience/Training/Knowledge - his dials go up to 11 in those catagories. He has MOAR!!

I don't think she clears this, i think she gets Son'd at Daredevil.
Definetley overwhelmed at Rogers.
And by way of genie lamp she manages to make it to the Wolverine...

lets just say she doesn't win.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
shit lol that was supposed to be at least one alien martial art....im doing typos galore.

No biggie. I know your better than that.

Originally posted by Konton
Uh, Wolverine isn't "on another level" than Elektra.


He's pretty much said so himself in Wolverine v3 #30-31. I'd post the scan, but I'm not allowed. First page of Gorgon's respect thread if you're interested.


Oh, and Shiva still clears it.

That was #30.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9397/gorgonvswolverineelektr.th.jpg

Seems that Millar's Wolvie has a poor self-esteem. Especially when we consider the fact that he did better against The Gorgon. And he was missing a piece of his soul then:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6633/wolvie61dcp0015.th.jpg http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3448/wolvie61dcp0016.th.jpg



Shiva definitely stops at 5.

Originally posted by Juk3n
His superhuman stats and immense damage soak put him on another level. Experience/Training/Knowledge - his dials go up to 11 in those catagories. He has MOAR!!

I don't think she clears this, i think she gets Son'd at Daredevil.
Definetley overwhelmed at Rogers.
And by way of genie lamp she manages to make it to the Wolverine...

lets just say she doesn't win.

Agreed.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That was #30.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9397/gorgonvswolverineelektr.th.jpg

Seems that Millar's Wolvie has a poor self-esteem. Especially when we consider the fact that he did better against The Gorgon. And he was missing a piece of his soul then:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6633/wolvie61dcp0015.th.jpg http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3448/wolvie61dcp0016.th.jpg



Shiva definitely stops at 5.

Wolverine getting handled by Elektra is pretty consistent. He's flat out said that he knows she toys with him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
That was #30.

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9397/gorgonvswolverineelektr.th.jpg

Seems that Millar's Wolvie has a poor self-esteem. Especially when we consider the fact that he did better against The Gorgon. And he was missing a piece of his soul then:

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6633/wolvie61dcp0015.th.jpg http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3448/wolvie61dcp0016.th.jpg




Shiva definitely stops at 5.


Yeah but the writer didnt know that and didnt take it into consideration. How badly did it affect Wolverine?

The only time Electra got the better of Logan was due to circumstances. Other then that Logan would take Electra 7-8/10.

Like when she stabbed him in the heart and left him for dead?

Originally posted by jinzin
Like when she stabbed him in the heart and left him for dead?
*takes a snapshot of Jinzin argueing a case of Wolverine loosing to peak human girl!

I see 6 beating her

Yea, Wolverine said something along the lines of "I'm stronger and faster than her. So why do I always feel like she's toying with me?" Don't know exactly where he said it, but he did.

But I still don't think Elektra could hang with Cassandra Cain like Shiva can. =/

Originally posted by jinzin
Like when she stabbed him in the heart and left him for dead?

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong issue. What Title/number are you referring too?

The one I recall had circumstances plus Electra had help.

Wolverine Elektra redeemer. 2 I think.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine getting handled by Elektra is pretty consistent. He's flat out said that he knows she toys with him.

LIES!!! And don't even try to post the scan or I'll be forced to get Cyber to skin you alive uhuh

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah but the writer didnt know that and didnt take it into consideration. How badly did it affect Wolverine?

True. But that doesn't change the fact that all of his post-resurrection failures were explained in Logan dies.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
LIES!!! And don't even try to post the scan or I'll be forced to get Cyber to skin you alive uhuh



you haven't slept much this weekend have you?

Well... can't deny that. I haven't. biscuits

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine Elektra redeemer. 2 I think.


You left out the part that Electra used a rocket launcher on Logan and them while in the car and used the people to get in between her and Logan. It was a complete ambush on her part.


Even Daredevil has put down Logan with just his pressure point strike and no aid other then himself. But that doesn't make me believe at all that DD takes the majority. In fact Logan takes the majority.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
You left out the part that Electra used a rocket launcher on Logan and them while in the car and used the people to get in between her and Logan. It was a complete ambush on her part. Bullshit. I left that out because it's completely irrelivent. The car crashed, Wolverine at worst got the wind knocked out of him in a crash were 3 humans survived without much harm.

Wolverine had enough time to get up, walk around and assess the situation. When Elektra and him began to fight it was after she made her presence completely known and stood right infront of him before they went at it. She beat him in a totally circumstantial-less fight.


Originally posted by Daredevil1
Even Daredevil has put down Logan with just his pressure point strike and no aid other then himself. But that doesn't make me believe at all that DD takes the majority. In fact Logan takes the majority. And you shouldn't because if you believed that shit peice of Ennis writing you'd also have to accept that Daredevil's joints are nowhere near strong enough to support holding the weight of the Punisher.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
You left out the part that Electra used a rocket launcher on Logan and them while in the car and used the people to get in between her and Logan. It was a complete ambush on her part.
I left it out because it's irrelivent to the fight. The car crash barely injured 3 humans to any degree and at MOST knocked the wind out of Logan.
By the time he and Elektra began to fight it was after he got up and assessed the situation and she had freely presented herself in plain view. Nothing about that had to do with anything revolving around an ambush. She beat him in a straight up fight.


Originally posted by Daredevil1
Even Daredevil has put down Logan with just his pressure point strike and no aid other then himself. But that doesn't make me believe at all that DD takes the majority. In fact Logan takes the majority. And you shouldn't because if you believed in that Craptacular Ennis comic book you'd also have to believe that Daredevil's limbs are not strong enough to support the weight of the friggin Punisher as well.

Originally posted by jinzin



And you shouldn't because if you believed in that Craptacular Ennis comic book you'd also have to believe that Daredevil's limbs are not strong enough to support the weight of the friggin Punisher as well.

Its wether DD could support both hes own body and Punishers weight on one arm and they had already gathered momentum because the were both flying out of the window. Then on top of that Punisher started tugging on it.

I guess DD beating Punisher up prior to that was crap writing as well.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its wether DD could support both hes own body and Punishers weight on one arm and they had already gathered momentum because the were both flying out of the window. Then on top of that Punisher started tugging on it.

I guess DD beating Punisher up prior to that was crap writing as well. that was one of the only good things in that arc...

You're talking about a guy who's joints and ligiments HAVE to be able to take that kind of abuse and stress to do the acrobatics he does.


are you seriously about to try and defend that issue again?

Originally posted by jinzin
that was one of the only good things in that arc...

Of course it was because it onvolved Pun getting beaten up.

Originally posted by jinzin

You're talking about a guy who's joints and ligiments HAVE to be able to take that kind of abuse and stress to do the acrobatics he does.

DD Doesnt go around swinging with that much weight everyday, he usually just supports his own body weight.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Of course it was because it onvolved Pun getting beaten up.

I don't know what that's all about but there really shouldn't be much question as to whether or not DD can kick Punisher around in some hand to hand fights.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
DD Doesnt go around swinging with that much weight everyday, he usually just supports his own body weight. But the tensil strength of his muscles/tendons are insane. He swung around a 400 pound barbell like it was a bo staff, Punisher shouldn't dislocate both his arms....


Just like Spiderman's SS shouldn't be faked out like it was.

Or Wolverine momentarily dispathed by a throat chop which has been disproven by a record of 20 to 1.

Originally posted by jinzin



But the tensil strength of his muscles/tendons are insane. He swung around a 400 pound barbell like it was a bo staff, Punisher shouldn't dislocate both his arms....


LOL he was using both his arms! Also both DDs weight and Puns weight are not going to come to 400lbs combined weight. You can make a decent case that Pun can run faster than 30mph. How much does 400lbs plus 30 mph weigh? How much would the speed increase once its assisted by gravity and both their weight. Im not a stats guy but the combined weight is going to be more than 400lbs. Even then it didnt get dislocated straight away.

The other shoulder got dislocted by landing on metal.

Furthermore characters strength level vary.

Originally posted by jinzin


Just like Spiderman's SS shouldn't be faked out like it was.

There are examples of his SS warning just before something becomes a threat eg his spider sense only warns him a split second before a bomb is triggered not because a bomb is present. You might call it a low showing but its not PIS. Spiderman thought he hadnt triggered the bombs.

Originally posted by jinzin

Or Wolverine momentarily dispathed by a throat chop which has been disproven by a record of 20 to 1.

I dont have the time or energy to go through that every excuse in the world for Wolverines HF.

Originally posted by jinzin
Bullshit. I left that out because it's completely irrelivent. The car crashed, Wolverine at worst got the wind knocked out of him in a crash were 3 humans survived without much harm.

Wolverine had enough time to get up, walk around and assess the situation. When Elektra and him began to fight it was after she made her presence completely known and stood right infront of him before they went at it. She beat him in a totally circumstantial-less fight.


And you shouldn't because if you believed that shit peice of Ennis writing you'd also have to accept that Daredevil's joints are nowhere near strong enough to support holding the weight of the Punisher.


Actually 1 of the humans died from the crash and another was unconscious. Plus that story was shit as well considering all the stuff Logan has recovered from that story was BS too. Seriously. Circumstances were there.

I'm fairly certain that the story took place fairly quickly after the weapon x experiment.

I thought that person died from previous injuries... I might be mistaken I haven't read it in some time.

When it came to the actual confrontation between Logan and Elektra I don't remember ANY circumstances being there.

you guys refferring to the book? the one with like two pictures?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL he was using both his arms! Also both DDs weight and Puns weight are not going to come to 400lbs combined weight. You can make a decent case that Pun can run faster than 30mph. How much does 400lbs plus 30 mph weigh? How much would the speed increase once its assisted by gravity and both their weight. Im not a stats guy but the combined weight is going to be more than 400lbs. Even then it didnt get dislocated straight away.

The other shoulder got dislocted by landing on metal.

Furthermore characters strength level vary.

Even with Punisher adding weight to DD's capacity by a factor of over 1,000 pounds . Once again, DD has swung a 400 pound barbell like it was nothing. The sheer conditioning of his tendons are going to be ludicrous after an entire life of building hopping. It shouldn't have happened.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
There are examples of his SS warning just before something becomes a threat eg his spider sense only warns him a split second before a bomb is triggered not because a bomb is present. You might call it a low showing but its not PIS. Spiderman thought he hadnt triggered the bombs. Yeah except they were fake, so no danger. PIS.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I dont have the time or energy to go through that every excuse in the world for Wolverines HF. I don't have the energy to explain to you what a low showing is again compared to the majority...

Originally posted by jinzin
Even with Punisher adding weight to DD's capacity by a factor of over 1,000 pounds . Once again, DD has swung a 400 pound barbell like it was nothing. The sheer conditioning of his tendons are going to be ludicrous after an entire life of building hopping. It shouldn't have happened.



Yeah except they were fake, so no danger. PIS.



I don't have the energy to explain to you what a low showing is again compared to the majority...

what even funnier is that the very issue and run go against logan getting taken down by a throat shot, when during the run he was not even kod while having haft his body turn to bone or being hit into the next state.

Originally posted by jinzin
Even with Punisher adding weight to DD's capacity by a factor of over 1,000 pounds . Once again, DD has swung a 400 pound barbell like it was nothing.

Again he used both arms. Obvoulsy he could hang 400 pounds off his arm but I dont know about 3 times that weight on one arm without getting injury. As already stated characters strength levels vary.

Originally posted by jinzin

The sheer conditioning of his tendons are going to be ludicrous after an entire life of building hopping. It shouldn't have happened.


You know most of the time he uses that grapple hook.....call me crazy but I think that would actually make hopping from building to building easier. He doesnt constantly swing from bulidng to builidng with one arm carrying weight.

Originally posted by jinzin

Yeah except they were fake, so no danger. PIS.




You know you didnt even understand what was explained?

To be quite honest with you its subjective. You're just doing what you usually do and that is just finding details so you can find something wrong with it, of course when it applies to Wolverine you do the opposite.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone


You know you didnt even understand what was explained?


No he did. Spiderman stated powers even at classic level allows him to discern a real threat from a fake. No matter if the bombs were real or not, his power would allow him to discern that they were no real danger to him. This coupled with his extensive knowledge from interactions between him and Punisher that Punisher would never attempt top kill him or any other Innocent hero would equate the event as PIS.

Spiderman powers were not only ignore, but his history with Punisher as well.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No he did. Spiderman stated powers even at classic level allows him to discern a real threat from a fake. No matter if the bombs were real or not, his power would allow him to discern that they were no real danger to him. This coupled with his extensive knowledge from interactions between him and Punisher that Punisher would never attempt top kill him or any other Innocent hero would equate the event as PIS.

Spiderman powers were not only ignore, but his history with Punisher as well.


The point is SS hasnt always been shown to do that. Im not ignoring history if his SS has been shown to vary.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You're just doing what you usually do and that is just finding details so you can find something wrong with it, of course when it applies to Wolverine you do the opposite.

How was that story not out of character for Wolverine? He was treated like in breaded fool. His lines through out it made him look stupid. He was treated as if he had no intellect. He went into a a supposes berserker rage with out any reason, which alone was against his character portrayal for years. He who is one of the best tracker on the planet a man who was able to track down Mystique within 9 hours from a cross the world to some random town in the middle east could not locate the position of Punisher in new york? The fact that he was taken out by an adam apple jab despite the fact much worse attack to the same area which were much worse were unable to slow him, not to mention him being able to breath which again goes against what the actual attack even does. What worse is it happen while Logan was berserk when his healing factor is extremely amp as his ability to struck off attacks. The instant even goes against what was shown in the issue in which Logan took attacks such as having haft his body being turn to bone with out being KO as well as been hit into the next state by Hulk, both of which were out of berserk which means his healing factor was not even at the level it should have been when he got next jab. Those are just some of the incorrect portrayal of his character and of his abilities shown through out his history, but also even contradicts what was shown in the very arc.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is SS hasnt always been shown to do that. Im not ignoring history if his SS has been shown to vary.
His majority of his showing say other wise, not to mention the fact his experience with Punisher would alone give him the knowledge that they are in fact fake.

Why should what Punisher did there out weight against vast majority of showing of the characters powers and the characters traits them selves?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
How was that story not out of character for Wolverine? He was treated like in breaded fool. His lines through out it made him look stupid. He was treated as if he had no intellect.


Yeah he was doesnt mean that he cant get shot by a missle launcher.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

He went into a a supposes berserker rage with out any reason, which alone was against his character portrayal for years.


He did, where did it state that?

Originally posted by Battlehammer


He who is one of the best tracker on the planet a man who was able to track down Mystique within 9 hours from a cross the world to some random town in the middle east could not locate the position of Punisher in new york?

Now you're just moaning. Dr Doom has had trouble tracking him down cant see why Wolverine cant.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

The fact that he was taken out by an adam apple jab despite the fact much worse attack to the same area which were much worse were unable to slow him, not to mention him being able to breath which again goes against what the actual attack even does. What worse is it happen while Logan was berserk when his healing factor is extremely amp as his ability to struck off attacks.

He was beserk?

Originally posted by Battlehammer

The instant even goes against what was shown in the issue in which Logan took attacks such as having haft his body being turn to bone with out being KO as well as been hit into the next state by Hulk, both of which were out of berserk which means his healing factor was not even at the level it should have been when he got next jab. Those are just some of the incorrect portrayal of his character and of his abilities shown through out his history, but also even contradicts what was shown in the very arc.

Why cant a missle launcher burn the flesh off his legs when bullets pierce his skin? Are you going to moan about everything?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
His majority of his showing say other wise,

Theres still alot that contradict that, so that could be considered to be a low showing

Originally posted by Battlehammer

not to mention the fact his experience with Punisher would alone give him the knowledge that they are in fact fake.

Now ypou're just making shit up this is what I mean about complaing about everything. Punisher has gone crazy and killed innocent people before other superheroes find him unpredicatble and they figure that he may actually snap and go completely nuts...sometimes they just dont want to take the risk eg the Cop that frank threatened and The Sentry.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Again he used both arms. Obvoulsy he could hang 400 pounds off his arm but I dont know about 3 times that weight on one arm without getting injury. As already stated characters strength levels vary. It has nothing to do with his strength as it does the tensil strength of his muscles. Being a gymnast of olympic level as he is, he necesarily has to have incredible conditioning when it comes to his joints/ligaments.

Being able to swing the 400 lb barbell is a demonstration of this. In order to do that without causing injury you would have to have muscle strength and conditioning that allowed you to counter balance the momentum of that weight. It's practically the same type of feat if not more impressive.

The fact is that Frank jumping on a peak human and dislocating his arm when it goes against his typcial character portrayal is just another dosage of Ennis' bias PIS.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know most of the time he uses that grapple hook.....call me crazy but I think that would actually make hopping from building to building easier. He doesnt constantly swing from bulidng to builidng with one arm carrying weight. doh!

Have you ever even read a Daredevil comic that didn't have Punisher in it?

Look at when Stick trained him. No grapple hook whatsoever. And even using a grapple hook you have to compensate for whiplash when launching yourself around corners etc etc with it. As he has done so in numerous fights.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know you didnt even understand what was explained?

To be quite honest with you its subjective. You're just doing what you usually do and that is just finding details so you can find something wrong with it, of course when it applies to Wolverine you do the opposite. Because no amount of "explaining" is going to justify someone who's power is borderline precog to be faked out by toys?

It's not consistent with ANY spiderman showings in the past, and trust me, I know.

He senses danger, there wasn't any... It was PIS.

I'm doing what I usually do in discrediting bad, bias, non-characteristic writing that discards common knowledge about these characters and accediting the characters for their typical portrayal.. while you're ALSO doing what you usually do, supporting Ennis' writing in that arc... BLEH!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now you're just moaning. Dr Doom has had trouble tracking him down cant see why Wolverine cant. It probably has something to do with the fact that he was across the street. And the fact that Wolverine's tracked Punisher down twice at this point as it was.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why cant a missle launcher burn the flesh off his legs when bullets pierce his skin? Are you going to moan about everything? blah blah blah "you don't understand" blah blah...


yeah he means that Wolverine took way more damage in that arc alone than 1 throat chop should have been capible of putting him down.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah he was doesnt mean that he cant get shot by a missle launcher.

If his character is misrepresented through out the arc using an example of him getting hit with a rocket launcher is not accurate to what would happen, since his character was never portrayal accurately to begin with. Also Logan was tracking down Punisher, he was yet un aware of Punisher being 30 feet away from him? He was also unable to hear a rocket launcher being firer from that closes despite the fact he was tracking Punisher is quite inaccurate and yes should not have happen. Yes it does mean he should not have been hit by a rocket launcher unaware and he has shown the ability to dodge rockets as well, which again goes against him being hit with the rocket let lone the fact he was hit unaware when he was tracking Punisher.





Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now you're just moaning. Dr Doom has had trouble tracking him down cant see why Wolverine cant.

Doom does not have wolverine prowess in tracking. Nor has doom have his enhance senses or know Punisher scent.

Nor was there any reason given for why he was unable to detect punisher. Just because Punisher was unable to go undetected by doom does, not make it ok for Wolverine abilities and prowess to be completely ignored by the author.

Same author mind you that stated he hates super powered hero's.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He was beserk?



Why cant a missle launcher burn the flesh off his legs when bullets pierce his skin? Are you going to moan about everything?
That was the reason given by the author for why he attack both spiderman and DD. I also believe he even apologies to them for it. Which was stupid to begin with that he went berserk since he taken far more damage and so forth with out resorting to such tactics.


You completely missed my point. Re read what I said. I said him no being KO from having haft his body turn to a skeleton and being hit into another state by the hulk conflict with him being put down from a jab to the adam apple. If your not even going to read what I said, why bother responding

Originally posted by jinzin
It has nothing to do with his strength as it does the tensil strength of his muscles. Being a gymnast of olympic level as he is, he necesarily has to have incredible conditioning when it comes to his joints/ligaments.

Being able to swing the 400 lb barbell is a demonstration of this. In order to do that without causing injury you would have to have muscle strength and conditioning that allowed you to counter balance the momentum of that weight. It's practically the same type of feat if not more impressive.

The fact is that Frank jumping on a peak human and dislocating his arm when it goes against his typcial character portrayal is just another dosage of Ennis' bias PIS.

Thats not the same as hanging a much haevier weight on one arm what so difficult to undertsand? Could he hang 1 ton on one arm without dislocating it? No because 1 ton is way above 400lbs. No im not saying they weighed 1ton.

Originally posted by jinzin

doh!

Have you ever even read a Daredevil comic that didn't have Punisher in it?

Look at when Stick trained him. No grapple hook whatsoever.

Lol I was reading DD for 4 years straight. That was ages ago most of his shwoings have him using a grapple hook supporting his own body weight.



Originally posted by jinzin

And even using a grapple hook you have to compensate for whiplash when launching yourself around corners etc etc with it. As he has done so in numerous fights.

LOL I dont think writers thingk about it, in that much detail Ive never read a DD comic where ths liones given him any whiplash. However he obvoulsy uses it because it makes his job easier and he supports his own body weight.


Originally posted by jinzin

Because no amount of "explaining" is going to justify someone who's power is borderline precog to be faked out by toys?

It's not consistent with ANY spiderman showings in the past, and trust me, I know.

He senses danger, there wasn't any... It was PIS.

I'm doing what I usually do in discrediting bad, bias, non-characteristic writing that discards common knowledge about these characters and accediting the characters for their typical portrayal.. while you're ALSO doing what you usually do, supporting Ennis' writing in that arc... BLEH!

As I said it could be a low showing because his SS has been portrayed in that way before.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Theres still alot that contradict that, so that could be considered to be a low showing

Or they can be examples of PIS. If an entire arc completely misrepresents characters, and then completely ignores there abilities they do not get validated, because of a previous time it has occured. Becuase that previus time could also be PIS, but more importantly that previous instant is not part of an arc in which the characters were misrepresented from start to finish.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Now ypou're just making shit up this is what I mean about complaing about everything. Punisher has gone crazy and killed innocent people before other superheroes find him unpredicatble and they figure that he may actually snap and go completely nuts...sometimes they just dont want to take the risk eg the Cop that frank threatened and The Sentry.

Really what innocents has Frank aka Punisher purposely killed?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not the same as hanging a much haevier weight on one arm what so difficult to undertsand? Could he hang 1 ton on one arm without dislocating it? No because 1 ton is way above 400lbs. No im not saying they weighed 1ton. Then why say it at all.

It's not the same, it's more impressive. Because he was demonstrating not only the ability to compensate for the same amount of wieght roughly, but the momentum of it, and overtake that momentum to shift it's direction.. As I said, insane tensil strength.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Lol I was reading DD for 4 years straight. That was ages ago most of his shwoings have him using a grapple hook supporting his own body weight. Are you sure. Using his grappling hook to slingshot him around things is fairly common place. And if you read him for 4 straight years than why are you attempting to characterize him as someone who only uses a grappling hook when using his roof to roof acrobatics...






Originally posted by Phantom Zone
LOL I dont think writers thingk about it, in that much detail We know Ennis doesn't that's for damned sure.




Originally posted by Phantom Zone
As I said it could be a low showing because his SS has been portrayed in that way before. When.