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Its May...and and a little bit of nostalgia is setting in. I definitely felt it last year not having my every-3-year Star Wars fix...but this one may be worse.

Soon it will be 10 years since I saw TPM on opening night back in my hometown. A lot has changed. Star Wars has changed.

I was in 7th grade at the time, which seem like forever ago now. We all went in as Star Wars fans...we all came out different. TPM and its subsequent siblings fractured a once unified Star Wars fanbase into 10,000 pieces. There are fans for "X" and against "Y" for every X, Y, and Z you can imagine. All of our perceptions of what we knew as "Star Wars" have changed.

I've been here over 4 years now, ROTS got me to join this site, hunting for every last scrap of spoiler and image for that film. This board used to be epic. Most of us have moved on. Those of you who know me know the preqeuls made me a "fan" and without them I would never know Star Wars as I do today. I wouldn't draw Jedi and Sith, Mandos and Clones. I wouldn't RP. I wouldn't be home on Friday nights to watch an ever-disappointing episode of The Clone Wars.

But the more I grow up, I'm 22 now, and move on, to NYC and medical school, I cant help but look back and question what the last 10 years of Star Wars has been. The movies wer emade and finished, subfranchises like Republic Commando, KOTOR, Clone Wars have risen to fill the gap left by the movies. There have been some cool videogames and some worthless ones....good books and bad....Wookiepedia, endless references in the media....the list goes on. But at the same time, we've seen the renvisioning of Battlestar Galactica into a hardcore poltico-military sci-fi. Star Trek is being reborn this Friday into a new, acclaimed, blockbuster film.

Maybe its Star Trek that gets me. I've never liked the series, hated it even, yet I found myself absolutely seduced by the new trailers and I'm going to see it as soon as I can. Maybe its the epic thematic score by the John Williams successor Michael Giacchino. Maybe its the fact that only yesterday it actually got a negative review on Rotten Tomatoes, knocking it from a 100% rating (with 75 reviews). Its now at 94%, a rating that ANY of the prequels could have dreamed of. Maybe its that there are scenes modeled directly after some epic cut sequences in the prequels. It has everyhting from the spectacular rocket and lazer combat cinematography of Star Wars to the epic colors and details. and Abrams' hybrid Wars-Trek franchise that makes me jealous. One reviewer even billed it as "the Star Wars of this generation" which made me burst out laughing followed quickly by a profane mental diatribe that he clearly doesn't understand what Star Wars WAS, let alone that not every generation gets one.

Trek isn't the topic of this discussion, but like Galactica (the other Sci-Fi series that really seemed to hit mainstream) its a symptom...a sign rather...of what has gone wrong in THIS franchise. Its the jealousy really, or the fear of being jealous that another franchise could do what Lucas and the prequels were SUPPOSED to do/be. Maybe Lucas was too old and stuck in his ways to really make a film that mattered, a good film that mattered and was actually cutting edge enough to have a legacy. maybe my love and expectations are so high that they could never be met by any real film. Regardless, now I'm stuck at home on Fridays watching a 23 minute cartoon with wooden animation hoping I'm going to find a sustained love in Star Wars again. Maybe looking forward to a probably disappointing/unoriginal/over-hyped (this seems to be Lucas' Star Wars mantra today) TV show in 3 years

I dont find it....just glimmers to keep me hopeful. The rest is water under the bridge.

So this got me wondering, was all this worth it? 10 years later, was it really worth it to go back and endure the prequels?..my personal love-hate relationship with them and the rest of the Star Wars franchise. Was Lucas too ungrounded, focusing on creating digital characters instead of CHARACTERS. Was he oo focused on making (his conception of) "Star Wars" repeating the films in every way from the structure of their titles and worthless dialogue to John William's score instead of a new re-envisioned sci-fi saga that had real acclaim and staying power?

Was the past decade of Star Wars worth it?

I'm torn on this myself. I want to say "yes", but an increasing part of me is seeing this past decade only as a "what could have been."

I know how you feel. From what I can see, I joined this forum not so long after you did. I even still remember the signature you made for me in 2003... It's true that the forums here aren't what they used to be, but I guess that's because 'the circle is now complete'.

As for the The Phantom Menace, it was also the beginning of me being a Star Wars fan. Without that movie I wouldn't have had the urge to watch the OT or go and see AotC when it hit the theaters...

Heck, I even met the person who has been my best friend for about 10 years until this very moment because of Star Wars. I can remember fighting him with our lightsabers... I miss those days now and then, well apart from the bruised knuckles, hehe.

I'm still as addicted to Star Wars and amazed by it like I was when I watched the credits of The Phantom Menace scroll down. I even collect those tiny lightsabers they put in cereal boxes these days... and tomorrow I'm finally getting my hands on the Genndy Tartakovsky Clone Wars DVD's (which are almost impossible to find in Belgium)

Well Ordo, I don't know what you think about the matter, but I'll know I'll always be a Star Wars fanboy or geek

Good points. but that the way I see it, the Star Wars that we watch these days are targeted at kids - aiming to bear a new generation of Star Wars fans. The new Star Trek movie (which, I have to say, is very attractive, even if i dislike Star trek a lot) wouldn't even be possible without star wars - the effects are created by ILM and was improved by them working on Star Wars.

What I'm actually thinking is, because there is just too many fans, it doesn't really seem like Star Wars is even going to die (at least, that's what it seems to me right now). EU is expanding fast, and there are the tv shows and The Clone Wars.

But the problem right now is, it keeps on pulling in new fans, but isn't retaining the old ones because of the disappointments we keep on getting. The past Star Wars projects have been really awesome, and none could compare to what we have now, and so generally, old fans are disappointed.

I got pulled in by the prequels too. I thought they were awesome - especially ROTS, the first Star Wars movie that really reeled me in, causing me to join this website. But ever since I've watched more of the OT, I realized that the prequels can never compare to the OT. I think thtat's what's happening, we keep on comparing the rest of the projects these days to the old ones and find that the old ones are better, and so we become disappointed.

or something like that.

I for one hope I remain attached to Star Wars for a long long time.

OT: Ordo, that is so freakin' cool. I've always wanted to go to medical school, and to NYC - even if going to NYC might never happen.

...sig was in 2005 bro lol. Maybe I owe you an update.

I was never "addicted" to SW before AOTC. Maybe my geekdom is more of a temporary thing lol. I love the universe and the ideas behind the story. Lucas never lapses in interesting stories and creative material, I just think the execution has fallen flat...especially over time. There are moments of greatness, but as a franchise, its surviving on fandom and geekdom, not on quality. The PT's messages were adpated to a new decade (and why it often confuses some of the *ahem* senior fans) but in hindsight I dont think Lucas went far enough to push the genre of Star Wars into a new decade.

I always loved the movies and they were among my favorites. They always will be. I still remeber those feelings, espcially AOTC and ROTS, which I admit I bawled during.

<<Geek.

Originally posted by Hybris
and tomorrow I'm finally getting my hands on the Genndy Tartakovsky Clone Wars DVD's (which are almost impossible to find in Belgium)
Where have you found them??

Not in a store unfortunately. I met someone who has them and has no further use of them, so he's happy to sell them to me for a small price

PS: that number needed to be 2005 indeed Ordo

Originally posted by Ordo
...sig was in 2005 bro lol. Maybe I owe you an update.

I was never "addicted" to SW before AOTC. Maybe my geekdom is more of a temporary thing lol. I love the universe and the ideas behind the story. Lucas never lapses in interesting stories and creative material, I just think the execution has fallen flat...especially over time. There are moments of greatness, but as a franchise, its surviving on fandom and geekdom, not on quality. The PT's messages were adpated to a new decade (and why it often confuses some of the *ahem* senior fans) but in hindsight I dont think Lucas went far enough to push the genre of Star Wars into a new decade.

I always loved the movies and they were among my favorites. They always will be. I still remeber those feelings, espcially AOTC and ROTS, which I admit I bawled during.

<<Geek.

*agrees with your statement*

I love the universe and the ideas behind it - that's why its fun reading new stuff - even fan ones. Some fan stuff are really good - even if they're in fanfiction.net.

ROTS pulled me in. I would never forget first seeing Obi-Wan (an Obi-Wan + Ewan Mcgregor fangirl was born...)... and that fight between him and Anakin... I was teary-eyed.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
But the problem right now is, it keeps on pulling in new fans, but isn't retaining the old ones because of the disappointments we keep on getting. The past Star Wars projects have been really awesome, and none could compare to what we have now, and so generally, old fans are disappointed.

Yeah. I feel like I'm becoming a cranky old OT'er.

It doesn't make sense though as a sustainable business model. You hooking people young is great! The problem is there is nothing for them to grow into. It becomes a passing childhood fantasy, not something you grow up with and into. While the EU is covering some of this (for me, RC, RC novels, and TFU), the big name productions aren't. I think thats kind of why I feel left out of the fandom...especially with Clone Wars which (the war) is like my heart and soul lol.

And thanks for the personal comments. If you want any advice, let me know . You should pursue your goals!

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome


But the problem right now is, it keeps on pulling in new fans, but isn't retaining the old ones because of the disappointments we keep on getting. The past Star Wars projects have been really awesome, and none could compare to what we have now, and so generally, old fans are disappointed.



Now see I disagree with this. I saw A New Hope back in 1977 when I was 16 and Ive forever been a fan and I will forever BE a fan. I don't really care for 90% of the novels, not a fan of the games outside of KOTOR and I despise The Clone Wars, but I will ALWAYS love the entire saga that was depicted in the movies and while I didn't agree with everything that Lucas did, it never dampened my affection for the story or the characters and this love affair has been going on now for 32 years.

Originally posted by Ordo
Yeah. I feel like I'm becoming a cranky old OT'er.

It doesn't make sense though as a sustainable business model. You hooking people young is great! The problem is there is nothing for them to grow into. It becomes a passing childhood fantasy, not something you grow up with and into. While the EU is covering some of this (for me, RC, RC novels, and TFU), the big name productions aren't. I think thats kind of why I feel left out of the fandom...especially with Clone Wars which (the war) is like my heart and soul lol.

And thanks for the personal comments. If you want any advice, let me know . You should pursue your goals!

Lucas ought to get new ideas that would be good for old and new fans. he did it once with the OT, he could do it again - if he has to get help and let go of a few of his own ideas he should try it.

thanks - I will. ^^

Originally posted by ~JP~
Now see I disagree with this. I saw A New Hope back in 1977 when I was 16 and Ive forever been a fan and I will forever BE a fan. I don't really care for 90% of the novels, not a fan of the games outside of KOTOR and I despise The Clone Wars, but I will ALWAYS love the entire saga that was depicted in the movies and while I didn't agree with everything that Lucas did, it never dampened my affection for the story or the characters and this love affair has been going on now for 32 years.

I didn't say all exactly. Some, maybe... I wouldn't be sure. But the new stuff these days have ways to make people disappointed. although I believe that fans would never get out of loving the movies - even just the OT.

Originally posted by Jaeh.is.Awesome
I believe that fans would never get out of loving the movies - even just the OT.
Even just the OT? EVEN JUST THE OT? There is only the OT that you can love! ... And some scenes from the PT.

I would like to give a perspective from someone who grew up with the OT, as I have been pretty nostalgic this week about the 10th Anniversary of Episode I.

I think the problem with Lucas and the Prequels is that he changed as a person since making the OT, and I think that change began in 1983 with Return of the Jedi. The problem is he didn't make a SW film for 16 years, so it didn't come full circle until Jar Jar Binks appeared on the screen.

Once Jar Jar appeared on the screen, I realized these movies are not the same gritty, edgy movies like Star Wars and Empire. If you look at Star Wars and Empire, they are cool Sci-Fi movies, cool characters, cool story, something that adults and kids can equally enjoy, but they don't cater to kids. Heck I didn't understand the cave scene in Empire til I was in High School!

The Prequels are made for kids to enjoy, and the only adults that enjoy it will be Star Wars fans from the old days. Star Wars and Empire appealed to the average Joe, who may not be a sci-fi fan, but liked them because they were damn good movies. Jedi was made for SW fans and kids, and so were the prequels.

What I am getting at, is that fans like myself who grew up with the OT, didn't realize that these movies just weren't what we were looking for, and we were never going to like them. We were expecting another Empire Strikes Back each Prequel, and we never got that. Sure Revenge of the Sith was much darker, but still couldn't muster that quality that Empire had in 1980 and Star Wars had in 1977.

The Prequel and Original Trilogy are just 2 different trilogies, that just can't sit next to each other in one sitting. This has nothing to do with the story or the characters, as that is a sympton of a prequel, I mean it was a different Lucas writing the new trilogy, there is more CG vs Models, there are CG Environments compared to real locations, as I could go on and on. All of these things every viewer will like one or the other, but the problem is they are supposed to be viewed 1-6, and if you like models you may get annoyed with the CG, or if you like Hoth as it is a real snow location, you may get annoyed with Geonosis which is all CGI.

In the end, it is like comparing Donnor's Superman to Singers Superman: "Routh is a good Superman!" "No, Chistopher Reeve is the only Superman!" "Hackman is Lex Luthor!" "No, Kevin Spacey is the real Lex!"

Nobody is wrong about their opinion of the Superman movies, the same way nobody is wrong about the Star Wars Prequels/Original Trilogy, they are two different entities butting heads, did Lucas actually think both sides would love them?

They are all Star Wars movies. I love them all.

I reject that outside of "Star Wars" (ANH) none of these films are "quality." Enforced nostalgia all around.

I also reject that the PT are "kid films." As a kid, lots of you enjoyed the OT...you just still enjoy them now because you have those fond memories, not because they are "adult films." (Though I might classify ANH that way) However, I think Lucas always saw himself as making them for kids. Its not that the PT was made with any different intention, its that his focus was too narrow, he became fixated on making them kid-friendly as opposed to making them good. (though really, only TPM is the major transgressor here). The key thing is that Lucas never intended to make them solely for kids....he just kind of made them unwatchable for adults.

While I agree that Lucas is entitled to make the saga as he wants, but if he wants FANS of his work, he's going to need to continue to give them material that they also want. I don't think you can call yourself a "fan" if you haven't liked anything in Star Wars in the past 25 YEARS. Can you?

Read the first bit concerning fantom menace and just decided not to read it, realizing it was probably a rant about how tpm sucked and this forum's eventual death.

I think ANH & ESB are the quality of the 6 films, and I think most film series are like this. I love Superman I & II, but III & IV suck. I love Godfather I & II, but III was OK. I think Rocky I is the only great Rocky movie, and the sequels all have their good and bad moments, although Rocky II is a pretty good sequel. I just think that most movie series lose steam somewhere by the 3rd or 4th movie, because it just happens. LOTR is the only exception simply because that was filmed as a 3-part trilogy from the start.





I see what you are saying, but I guess I should phrase it that the PT is made for children, or geared for children, where ANH & ESB are made for anyone, and children like myself just latched on. Think about it, if Lucas wanted to make a movie geared towards kids in 1977, do you think he would have 2 burning skeletons that children can see in ANH? Do you think he would Darth Vader decapitated in the cave in ESB, or Lukes hand cut off too? That stuff is more edgy that just for kids, as a kids movie is The Incredibles, Toy Story, etc.



Yes I can call myself a huge SW fan. Now I still enjoy ROTJ, even though it is inferior to ANH & ESB, but it is part of the trilogy, and I can root for those characters to see the ending of the story. Star Wars, the original, is my favorite movie of all-time, as I have seen it hundreds of times, and ESB & ROTJ I have seen about half of that amount. Just cause I don't like the PT, doesnt make me any less of a SW fan then someone who loves all 6 movies.

Originally posted by cc16
where ANH & ESB are made for anyone, and children like myself just latched on.
See I think this is a key point and a flaw in anythign Lucas has done in the PT and post.


Originally posted by cc16
Do you think he would Darth Vader decapitated in the cave in ESB, or Lukes hand cut off too?

But in the same vein Dooku is beheaded, Anakin waxes children. TPM even goes into slavery.


Originally posted by cc16
Just cause I don't like the PT, doesnt make me any less of a SW fan then someone who loves all 6 movies.

I'm not trying to say you're not a fan, but aren't you a fan of what Star Wars "was" and not "is"?

..wow...the..the memories.

Like most of you all I was born and Raised during the Prequel Trilogy era...but its not the same anymore.

I remember I had this certain feeling of what Star Wars was and what it actually meant. The new era of Star Wars that we live in now...has destroyed that feeling inside me..I no longer feel what I felt when I watch Luke Skywalker go down that Death Star Trench and destroy it. I no longer feel the somber sense of Luke fighting his own Father.

It feels like ages ago....Dark Forces and Jedi Knight series of Video games and the X-Wing / Tie Fighter Series are gone...the old times are over...we live in the era of CW and KOTOR. Kotor being the only REAL light at the end of the tunnel.

It actually makes me quite sad to see how Star Wars has deteriorated over the years. It seems as if George Lucas has forgotten his dream , his love and passion for the art and creativity of Star Wars.

I am an old OT'er ... I always will be... I love the Clones...but...the way they were executed took a truly epic and great experience and made it into a lackluster appetizer.

So...May I say what everyone here is afraid to say...Star Wars as we knew it...is gone we are living in the so called "Dark Times" of Star Wars that Obi-Wan Kenobi spoke of...I will continue to hope and pray that Star Wars turns back into what it once was...

May Star Wars Reign Supreme....may it rest in peace... *Bows*

Alright Men...Lets move out!

whadaya know, maybe it'll take twenty years, maybe ten.

maybe all that's left is for GL to turn his creation over to another for a new era of Star Wars stuff.

So...May I say what everyone here is afraid to say...Star Wars as we knew it...is gone we are living in the so called "Dark Times" of Star Wars that Obi-Wan Kenobi spoke of...I will continue to hope and pray that Star Wars turns back into what it once was...

See I think this id dumb. If Star Wars was released today, it would flop. No one would care. Times change and franchises change. I dont think its always for the better, but saying it should "turn back into what it once was" would simply make it completely irrelevant. This is the enforced OT nostalgia that I talk about. These aren't "Dark times" they're BORING times. The issue is not that Star Wars isn't like it was...the issue is I don't think it QUALITY.

Lucas clearly needs fresh blood, (Filoni is clearly not the answer) but I don't agree that KOTOR is the future of the series. KOTOR sucks. Its unimaginative, poorly thought out, has sh!tty art direction and erodes a lot of Star Wars principles.

Originally posted by Ordo
But in the same vein Dooku is beheaded, Anakin waxes children. TPM even goes into slavery.


The difference is though: we don't actually SEE any of that. It's only suggested, it takes place off screen.

Originally posted by queeq
The difference is though: we don't actually SEE any of that. It's only suggested, it takes place off screen.

We don't see Dooku beheaded? We dont see slavery?

*Hands queeq prequels*

Originally posted by queeq
The difference is though: we don't actually SEE any of that. It's only suggested, it takes place off screen.

Hahaha, imagine them showing Anakin's saber cutting little kids into pieces. Wow parents would freak out.

Imagine the reactions.

Originally posted by Ordo
We don't see Dooku beheaded? We dont see slavery?

*Hands queeq prequels*

Well, no... we don't see the actual beheading like we do in the ESB cave scene. We see Anakin's face as he does the deed.

And we certainly don't see slavery. All I saw was a boy working in Watto's shop, and he seemed to like it as well. I didn't see any downsides to Tatooine slavery: no whips, sweating, hard labour. I did see Anakin being able to build his own droid, his own podracer, being able to compete with his favourite sport, living in some nice quarters... I didn't see Shmi in chains either. Is this some romantic version of slavery?

I think seeing Dooku's head bounce away is pretty close. Also, the ESB thing was dream sequence.

As to slavery, Anakin did talk about how he'd be blown up if he tried to escape. Anakin may have built his own pod, but Watto didn't know about it (as evidenced by Jinn convinced him it was his pod). Likely Watto didn't know about 3PO either. If he did, he would have claimed both as his property (as he did with the pod Anakin previously destroyed). Watto didnt do anyhting in the race, Anakin was not awarded any money for his participation, it was split between Watto and Jinn. Anakin racing was just a way for Watto to win money. He even betted against him and laughed at him the whole time, presuming he would fail and Watto would win more betting "everything" against the kid.

So no, its not a "romantic" version. Nice living quarters? Chains? Are you kidding? American slavery in the 16th-18th centuries was NOT the typical historical model. I suggest you pick up a book. We know all the ancient Roman influences Lucas uses...maybe ancient Roman slavery would be a good start for you. Because the kid doesnt have whip marks doesn't mean its not slavery.

We see outright domestic violence in the PT. Another example: in the PT we don't really see any lightsaber deaths. There is the arm in the cantina, but (per your logic thats no different than teh Dooku head scene) and Ben's "magic" disappearing act death. In the PT we see Jinn stabbed and Anakin outright hacks the seperatists to bits while they're begging for mercy.

Originally posted by Ordo
As to slavery, Anakin did talk about how he'd be blown up if he tried to escape. Anakin may have built his own pod, but Watto didn't know about it (as evidenced by Jinn convinced him it was his pod). Likely Watto didn't know about 3PO either. If he did, he would have claimed both as his property (as he did with the pod Anakin previously destroyed). Watto didnt do anyhting in the race, Anakin was not awarded any money for his participation, it was split between Watto and Jinn. Anakin racing was just a way for Watto to win money. He even betted against him and laughed at him the whole time, presuming he would fail and Watto would win more betting "everything" against the kid.

So no, its not a "romantic" version. Nice living quarters? Chains? Are you kidding? American slavery in the 16th-18th centuries was NOT the typical historical model. I suggest you pick up a book. We know all the ancient Roman influences Lucas uses...maybe ancient Roman slavery would be a good start for you. Because the kid doesnt have whip marks doesn't mean its not slavery.

My point was: we don't really see why Anakin's life as a slave was so bad. I'm sure it was, but I have difficulty with MENTIONING something and not showing what it's really like. Exposition by mentioning something in a dialogue is a very poor way to depict someone's dire living conditions.
And I know a little about slavery in the past. And fact is, sometimes slaves weren't all that bad off apart from the fact they weren't free. But again: I don't see Anakin being surpressed in his freedom in doing what he likes. Obviously he's able to hide a lot form his owner: building a droid AND a podracer. Both require a) being able to steal a lot of parts and b) more living space than I have and c) so much free space taht you can even hide it from your owner.
IMHO, I thought the slavery bit was very poorly done and therefore quite unconvincing.