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fight takes place in isolated area with no landmarks with current versions of all, which team wins?

hmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Black Panther and hawkman

Team 2
Hawkman has insane weaponry and Wolverine is a jobber

Also BP could beat Batman

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Wolverine is a jobber

Both members of team 2 have an aesenal of weapons at their disposal, while both on team 1 are great strategist, not a easy one to call......which is why i created it!

Wolverine and Batman on the same team! Wow, I may close this for spite. durverine

Originally posted by Badabing
Wolverine and Batman on the same team! Wow, I may close this for spite. durverine Shouldn't do that!

Well I think Hawkman>Wolverine. Batman and Panther is a tossup with Batman having the slight edge. Panther's got a better suit but Batman is more skilled and has a more varied equipment.

This is a good match but I don't like Wolverine's chances against a being who's a master flyer, has superhuman strength and speed surpassing his own and better weapons, not to mention a healing factor to compare.

i pick team 1 their combine jobber aura is too strong

...........hawk man combat speed is not faster then wolverines....and as for strength hawkman like a 2 tonner..... also Logan can take more hits from hawlk man then vice versa. Logan also is more skilled and being a flyer means little when you dont have a range option

Hawkman is an impressive healer as well. Might not be combat speed-wise faster but I bet Carter could blitz Logan in flight.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Hawkman is an impressive healer as well. Might not be combat speed-wise faster but I bet Carter could blitz Logan in flight.

Doubt that greatly I bet Logan has more pure speed bliztz and superior ones then hawlk man.

also how does some one who does not have better combat speed blizt some one?



healer? his healing isent that great, nothing let him take bunch of stabbs

Originally posted by Battlehammer
also how does some one who does not have better combat speed blizt some one? He may not be as fast as Logan in a fistfight but he can achieve mach something through flight.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
He may not be as fast as Logan in a fistfight but he can achieve mach something through flight.

being able to fly in a single line faster then someone is not going to help you beat them when there reflex and combat speed is superior

logan gets tackled by a flying speed blitz and to hawkmans suprise his head is decapitated and his body has taken over a dozen stabs in under a second.

I'd probably give Batman the win over Black Panther. And I'd definitely give Wolvie the win over Hawkman. Likewise, Wolverine would massacre Black Panther, and Batman can handle Hawkman.

Team One almost every time.

Bats has the edge on BP and Hawkman.
Wolverine has the edge on BP and Hawkman.

Team 1 wins this.

Originally posted by grimify
Bats has the edge on BP and Hawkman.
Wolverine has the edge on BP and Hawkman.

Team 1 wins this. neither batman nor wolverine have an edge on BP, and hawkman has som serious equipment

team two should take it

how does wolverine not have an edge? last time I check BP does not have nearly the experiences, the training nor does he have wolverine durability or damage soak, nor does he have nearly the stamina. He also not as strong, nor does he have the speed blizt feats of wolverine.

Wolverine clearly has an edge on BP and would win the majority heavily. BP puts up hell of a fight but there no way wolverine does not have an edge.

Hawkman has flown Superman in to space and smashed his face in, I would imagine he has more then 2 ton strength when needed and that mace owns face when it hits.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
...........hawk man combat speed is not faster then wolverines....and as for strength hawkman like a 2 tonner..... also Logan can take more hits from hawlk man then vice versa. Logan also is more skilled and being a flyer means little when you dont have a range option

Oh my

Originally posted by Battlehammer
being able to fly in a single line faster then someone is not going to help you beat them when there reflex and combat speed is superior



Originally posted by Chopsum
I would imagine he has more then 2 ton strength

He does, not sure were Battlehammer came up with that.

Team 1 FTW

Logan and Batman are great strategist, they can handle this fight very well. Black Panter is the weak link here...

7-8/10

Originally posted by Sweet_lady18
Black Panter is the weak link here... He might be the weakest here but he's certainly not that far down from Batman.

His suit is a heck of a lot better than batmans, and he's arguably a better fighter...not sure how he's is the weak link seeing as he could beat both wolverine and batman

Originally posted by Trackz
His suit is a heck of a lot better than batmans, and he's arguably a better fighter...not sure how he's is the weak link seeing as he could beat both wolverine and batman
hes not beating wolverine for a majority

and how is he a better fighter then batman?

Originally posted by jalek moye
hes not beating wolverine for a majority

and how is he a better fighter then batman? he was raised by a warrior culture and been trained to fight since a child, his servants alone has shown to be great fighters (and defeated black widow easily) and he beats them easily in practice sessions. He has taken on Wolverine before (shocked him with his speed) and his suit gives him many advantages over batman.

Yeah BP can beat both Batman and Wolverine.

Originally posted by Trackz
he was raised by a warrior culture and been trained to fight since a child, his servants alone has shown to be great fighters (and defeated black widow easily) and he beats them easily in practice sessions. He has taken on Wolverine before (shocked him with his speed) and his suit gives him many advantages over batman.
Lol if you compare there feat batman is crealy the more skilled fighter not even sure how you debate this

How does shocking wolverine with your speed make him able to beat wolverine for the majority? Not to mention he shocked wolverine with his speed and then was shocked seconds later by wolverines own speed.

If they fought Wolverine clearly holds the advantage he a better fighter, more skill, better trained, has far greater stamina, more durable and has vastly greater damage soak. He clearly wins the majority.

Hawkman would wreck Wolverines skull team two for the majority.

hawlk man wins if he has his crazy weapons.

Agreed, Batman is clearly the better martial artist. By what margin, that's debatable. What's not is that he's inferior to Batman.

I don't think either Batman or Panther can defeat Wolverine for the majority in a fight without prep.

His suit makes him more durable, yes, but Batman's suit is pretty impressive as well.

All Hawkman needs is his mace to beat Logan. As for Black Panther being a better fighter than Batman nope.

Team one...




bites the dust.

Originally posted by iceman24567
All Hawkman needs is his mace to beat Logan. As for Black Panther being a better fighter than Batman nope.


is mace alone would not be enough to beat wolverine the majority.

who said BP was a better fighter then Batman?

His Mace plus his strength is enough to beat Wolverine for majority.

*Points finger at Trackz* He said he was arguably a better fighter.

Originally posted by iceman24567
His Mace plus his strength is enough to beat Wolverine for majority.
No it not. Hawlk mans not even that strong, he taken severak hits to put Logan down and Logan the superior fighter and faster combat speed. Hawlk man not all that powerful, he does however have the claw which makes him uber.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
*Points finger at Trackz* He said he was arguably a better fighter.
Trackz is a BP fanboy of course he say some reidculous notion like that.

Hes stronger than Wolverine and one swoop from the stratosphere followed by a mace smash would knock the hell out of Logan.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Hes stronger than Wolverine and one swoop from the stratosphere followed by a mace smash would knock the hell out of Logan.

who cares if he stornger, wolverine faster and better damage soak.


yea because wolverine will just sit there an let him self get hit right

He has no choice

he could you know dodge.....or stabbed the less skilled slower reflex opponet......

Originally posted by iceman24567
He has no choice

their is always a choice... but its how you deal with the repercussion due to your choice is the important question...

Nah Hawkman would connect and end it Hawkman is a weapons master for a reason.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Nah Hawkman would connect and end it Hawkman is a weapons master for a reason.
If WWH's punch didn't drop Logan, one mace blow from Hawkman wouldn't, either.

Flying full speed from the stratosphere then hitting him wouldn't drop him? Ok believe what you want after that attack Logan is on the floor.

i'm making the thread

Originally posted by iceman24567
Flying full speed from the stratosphere then hitting him wouldn't drop him?
*shrug* I didn't say that.

Well thats what I said read up

Originally posted by iceman24567
Well thats what I said read up
I have you on ignore. I don't actually read any of your posts.

Well isn't that just lovely

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Lol if you compare there feat batman is crealy the more skilled fighter not even sure how you debate this

I dont think so.
Originally posted by Battlehammer

How does shocking wolverine with your speed make him able to beat wolverine for the majority? Not to mention he shocked wolverine with his speed and then was shocked seconds later by wolverines own speed.



BP wasnt taking it serioulsy and just didnt expect Wolverine to be fast. BP was evading Wolverine who was taking it more seriously and thats more impressive. Also Cap has had trouble tagging BP while he was injured BP is most likely the most agile opponent.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I have you on ignore. I don't actually read any of your posts.

how do you do put ppl on ignore i need to put some ppl on it.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I have you on ignore. I don't actually read any of your posts.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
how do you do put ppl on ignore i need to put some ppl on it. Go to your User CP and edit your Ignore List.

Personally, I think the whole idea of it is lame.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Go to your User CP and edit your Ignore List.

Personally, I think the whole idea of it is lame.

thx i just figured it out.. it's better then reading some of the posters who dont contribute anything and just crack jokes or seem to call you names or are plane sarcastic.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No it not. Hawlk mans not even that strong, he taken severak hits to put Logan down and Logan the superior fighter and faster combat speed.

Stop trying to sound like you know Hawkman as each post hurts your cause

Originally posted by Enyalus
If WWH's punch didn't drop Logan, one mace blow from Hawkman wouldn't, either. sentry's pucnh managed to KO logan though..as did Namors

Originally posted by Trackz
sentry's pucnh managed to KO logan though..as did Namors
Million exploding suns > fake wings and a chrome (yes, you thought it was Nth metal, didn't you?) mace.

Originally posted by Trackz
sentry's punch managed to KO logan though..as did Namors

i cant wait till jinzin hears this sh#@... and reams your butt for misrepresenting the information and comparing it to something hawkman being able to do with his mace.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i cant wait till jinzin hears this sh#@... and reams your butt for misrepresenting the information and comparing it to something hawkman being able to do with his mace. ? his healing factor doesn't really stop him from getting KO"D does it, and I'm pretty sure I've see nscans of normal hulk one-shotting Wolverine.

Originally posted by Trackz
? his healing factor doesn't really stop him from getting KO"D does it, and I'm pretty sure I've see nscans of normal hulk one-shotting Wolverine.

no, it doesn't stop him from being knocked out.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Million exploding suns > fake wings and a chrome (yes, you thought it was Nth metal, didn't you?) mace.


QFT sweetheart.



I give BP the slight edge over Bruce only because I believe his standard equip is better for this type of encounter. BUT!! Imo the are not equal h2h and Bruce will be able to pull off wins there. So in a nutshell it's generally gonna be too close to call, UNLESS you count the Ebony Blade as standard equipment the Bruce gets owned.

Bat-fu > Panther-fu

however!!

Panther-gadgets > Bat-gadgets


so the fight boils down to Hawkman and Wolverine, I really cant recall Hawkmans healing feats, but if you factor in the Claw, Logan may get one-shotted or atleast bfred. People seem to forget HM can do that.

what would be more interesting would be T'challa against Logan, i'd like to see how those anti-metal claws would do against his adamantium...in a non pic battle Logan should get owned.

i think bats can start dropping sleeping/riot gas without fear of logan passing out or being effected. it would leave hawkman and black panther vulerable for a combined attack while hawkman reached for altitude to avoid the smoke clouds or he could be effected by them and be taken out of the game.


a combined attack of logan and bats would be to much for black panther to evade or defend long enough for hawkman to return.

this is under the assumption that the claw of horus isnt standard gear for hawkman. even though i think it would be fairly difficult to land a punch on logan or bats.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
t.

what would be more interesting would be T'challa against Logan, i'd like to see how those anti-metal claws would do against his adamantium

They do nothing, he does not have enough anti-metal nor enough strength.


Originally posted by Sin I AM
...in a non pic battle Logan should get owned.

what, does a non pic battle mean..........

Originally posted by Battlehammer


what, does a non pic battle mean.......... are you seriously making fun of someone's spelling error? you...of all people?

Originally posted by Starscream M
are you seriously making fun of someone's spelling error? you...of all people?
No I really dont know what he means.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No I really dont know what he means. I'm guessing he meant non-pis....what else could it mean?

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i think bats can start dropping sleeping/riot gas without fear of logan passing out or being effected. it would leave hawkman and black panther vulerable for a combined attack while hawkman reached for altitude to avoid the smoke clouds or he could be effected by them and be taken out of the game.


a combined attack of logan and bats would be to much for black panther to evade or defend long enough for hawkman to return.

this is under the assumption that the claw of horus isnt standard gear for hawkman. even though i think it would be fairly difficult to land a punch on logan or bats.

BP has the potential to kill batman in one attack, the same can't be said for batman, BP and Batman are equals in skill (they have just as many feats as the other) BP however has better tech as well as the will to kill batman, that gives him the edge over him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Million exploding suns > fake wings and a chrome (yes, you thought it was Nth metal, didn't you?) mace. regular hulk managed to put hulk down...and again namor as well, plus Sentry wasn't even trying in his fight with wolverine, that much was obvious.

Originally posted by Trackz
BP has the potential to kill batman in one attack

Mephisto Punch?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Mephisto Punch?

Batkick >>> Mephisto punch

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Mephisto Punch?

Originally posted by Trackz
sentry's pucnh managed to KO logan though..as did Namors

Neither was one punch and there was quite a bit of circumstances. For instances prior to fighting sentry wolverine had his throat shawed into and sentry hit him not onces but twice, and Logan stated he hits like galactus, oh and sentry right before that stated he new he can't kill wolverine so he was not pulling any punches.

Oh and for the namor incident, lets review what happen, wolverine heal froma skeleton then fought namor superhuman body guards, oh and then he took 2 shots from namor which he got right back up from oh and namor had to resort to a sneak attack while wolverine was distracted.

if your gunna bring up events get them right.

on and both of them are vastly stronger then hawlkman

Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm guessing he meant non-pis....what else could it mean?

I dont think so, I hope not becauses that just sad if that what sin ment.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I dont think so, I hope not becauses that just sad if that what sin ment.
Diss my woman and I will rip off your head and sexually violate the new orifice. uhuh

Originally posted by iceman24567
Batkick >>> Mephisto punch
Originally posted by Enyalus
Diss my woman and I will rip off your head and sexually violate the new orifice. uhuh I've already told you to stop sexually harassing the posters. facepalm

Originally posted by Badabing
I've already told you to stop sexually harassing the posters. facepalm Bada ftw.

Originally posted by Badabing
I've already told you to stop sexually harassing the posters. facepalm
Only out of jealousy because I don't give you the same attention.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Bada ftw. Originally posted by Enyalus
Only out of jealousy because I don't give you the same attention. Right. duriroll

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Neither was one punch and there was quite a bit of circumstances. For instances prior to fighting sentry wolverine had his throat shawed into and sentry hit him not onces but twice, and Logan stated he hits like galactus, oh and sentry right before that stated he new he can't kill wolverine so he was not pulling any punches.

Oh and for the namor incident, lets review what happen, wolverine heal froma skeleton then fought namor superhuman body guards, oh and then he took 2 shots from namor which he got right back up from oh and namor had to resort to a sneak attack while wolverine was distracted.

if your gunna bring up events get them right.

on and both of them are vastly stronger then hawlkman

prety sure sentry one-shotted him, and wolverine was 100 percent right after he healed, but if healing fro ma neck injury means sentry can easily KO him, then hawkman might not be able to one-shot him, but two hits should do it.


I did get the event right, namor knocked out wolverine in one hit, I'm not saying wolverine didn't do better in the fight, but Namor did possess the strength to KO wolverine.

Originally posted by Trackz
prety sure sentry one-shotted him, and wolverine was 100 percent right after he healed, but if healing fro ma neck injury means sentry can easily KO him, then hawkman might not be able to one-shot him, but two hits should do it.


I did get the event right, namor knocked out wolverine in one hit, I'm not saying wolverine didn't do better in the fight, but Namor did possess the strength to KO wolverine.

No he not, you dont get it, wolverine healing factor slow down a little every time he damaged. He not 100 percent when he sjust had his neck sawed to the bone, not sure what you dont understand. He also got hit not onces but twices by sentry, plus sentry was pushing his claws into wolverines own arm. stop with the misrepresenting events. Also Sentry is >>>>>>hawlk in strength.


No you dident. Again you miss represented events which you tend to do a lot. He healed from a skeleton then fought namor superhuman body guards, then fought namor who he got hit twices by prior to truning his back to namor who then had to revert to hitting wolverien from behind. It was not one shot and there was huge amount of circumstances which you keep neglecting to mention

^

Originally posted by Battlehammer
and sentry hit him not onces but twice, and Logan stated he hits like galactus Weakened Wolverine can take two shots from Galactus?

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No he not, you dont get it, wolverine healing factor slow down a little every time he damaged. He not 100 percent when he sjust had his neck sawed to the bone, not sure what you dont understand. He also got hit not onces but twices by sentry, plus sentry was pushing his claws into wolverines own arm. stop with the misrepresenting events. Also Sentry is >>>>>>hawlk in strength.


No you dident. Again you miss represented events which you tend to do a lot. He healed from a skeleton then fought namor superhuman body guards, then fought namor who he got hit twices by prior to truning his back to namor who then had to revert to hitting wolverien from behind. It was not one shot and there was huge amount of circumstances which you keep neglecting to mention

I asked above if his healing factor prevented him form being knocked out, another answered no. SO don't tell me im misrepresenting evidence.

next thing if a sentry, who isn't trying can put down wolverine with two hits, you're going to argue that hawkman can't do the same?

no hawkman shouldnt be able too since he is not a uber class 100+ tonner. dont compare hawkman to the sentry and say logan can be knocked out just as easily under two different circumstances. the average showing of logan when does get knocked out is when he is put through the ringer and finally is weak enough to be ko'ed.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
no hawkman shouldnt be able too since he is not a uber class 100+ tonner. dont compare hawkman to the sentry and say logan can be knocked out just as easily under two different circumstances. the average showing of logan when does get knocked out is when he is put through the ringer and finally is weak enough to be ko'ed. I'm not comparing hawkman to the sentry, I'm comparing a sentry who wasn't trying to hawkman who is.

and when he has strength like this:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/DCComics-Hawkman2002001-04.jpg

while not as strong as sentry, wolverine can only take so much before hes taken out

that scan wasnt remotely a show of strength it was a combination of his Nth metal and being able to grip the plane his strength lvl would barely be in the 2 to 5 ton range tops that is nowhere near the strength requirement to ko logan. logan has taken full lvl spidey punches to the head without passing out, he has also taken a repetitive beating from rough house without his adamantium skull without being ko'ed. hawkman is no where near close enough in strength to ko logan.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
that scan wasnt remotely a show of strength it was a combination of his Nth metal and being able to grip the plane his strength lvl would barely be in the 2 to 5 ton range tops that is nowhere near the strength requirement to ko logan. logan has taken full lvl spidey punches to the head without passing out, he has also taken a repetitive beating from rough house without his adamantium skull without being ko'ed. hawkman is no where near close enough in strength to ko logan. thats interesting, ok I made a thread for this fight, I'm curious as to who would win.

That mace could do some damage to wolverine

Originally posted by Trackz
I asked above if his healing factor prevented him form being knocked out, another answered no. SO don't tell me im misrepresenting evidence.

next thing if a sentry, who isn't trying can put down wolverine with two hits, you're going to argue that hawkman can't do the same?

Oh you are, you have been saying that wolverien got one shotted when he dident, both time syou flat out lied. Second you dont get circumstances do you? Not sure how some one saying wolverine healing factor does not prevent himf rom getitng knocked out have anything to do with what were saying. But yes wolverine healing factor is the reaosn he so dam hard to KO.


Oh so now sentry wa spulling his punches? based on what? Oh I mean clearly sentry saying he knows he can't kill wolverine means he pull his punches, oh yea and wolveirne saying he hits like galactus us must imply sentry was pulling his punches to right . Now your just making shit up.


So hawlk man is vastly weaker then sentry.

Hawkman briefly hanging with Black Adam:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p14.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p15.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p16.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p17.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p18.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p19.jpg

2 tons? ermm

Originally posted by Trackz

and when he has strength like this:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/DCComics-Hawkman2002001-04.jpg

while not as strong as sentry, wolverine can only take so much before hes taken out
..........spiderman could easily do that...hell wolverine could do that. That not even above being a 2 tonner feat........


if that is why you think hawlk man can one shot wolverine thats just sad and ignorant.


actaully wolverine could take that strength level hits all day long

Originally posted by Raoul
Hawkman briefly hanging with Black Adam:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p14.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p15.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p16.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p17.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p18.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/scansnstuff/th_RacerX-BlackAdam3-p19.jpg

2 tons? ermm

yea and batman beat the hell out of grundy your point? does that mean batman is now vastly stronger then 2 ton strength which batman aint even at.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
yea and batman beat the hell out of grundy your point? does that mean batman is now vastly stronger then 2 ton strength which batman aint even at.

i'm not saying hawkman's team would win, but neither his nor black adam's strength varies the way grundy's does, so it's a bad example.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
yea and batman beat the hell out of grundy your point? does that mean batman is now vastly stronger then 2 ton strength which batman aint even at. Bad form Capt, bad form. We use Wolverine's high end feats aginst beings like Namor and Thing.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Bad form Capt, bad form. We use Wolverine's high end feats aginst beings like Namor and Thing.

how that bad form? when did being able to fight some one extremely strong make you way stronger then class 2? It doesent. Capt does that crap, batman does, wolverine does it. Does not mean there vastly stronger then 2 tonns.

which is my point. Thoses arnt even that high and he consistently does this, and has done this sinces his creation.


But that does not mean he vastly stronger then class 2. Hawlk man could be stronger, but showing his fight blakc adam does not prove this

Originally posted by Raoul
i'm not saying hawkman's team would win, but neither his nor black adam's strength varies the way grundy's does, so it's a bad example.

Not really. Grundy at the time of the fight was written at some of his highest levels, and even at his lowest levels he still well over 80 tons.

team two wins due to hawlkman having horas claw whatever it called

Originally posted by Battlehammer
team two wins due to hawlkman having horas claw whatever it called
Claw of Horus isn't standard equip...IMO.

I think it currently is.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Not really. Grundy at the time of the fight was written at some of his highest levels, and even at his lowest levels he still well over 80 tons.

yes really. you can't use examples of batman fights because, simply, he's batman. he does stuff no street leveller can do.

batman doesn't set the bar for street levellers in the slightest, so trying to use any example of him as some sort of bar is just plain ridiculous.

Originally posted by Raoul
yes really. you can't use examples of batman fights because, simply, he's batman. he does stuff no street leveller can do.

batman doesn't set the bar for street levellers in the slightest, so trying to use any example of him as some sort of bar is just plain ridiculous.


there vast amounts of street leveler who have taken it to highly strong people. To prtend that halkman briefly fighting black adam makes him well over 2 tons is wrong. If we based people strength level like your trying to do, we have punisher, wolverine, capt, batman DD ect. all well over 2 tons.

now hawlkman could very well be stronger then a 2 tonner, but your example does not prove this

edit

Originally posted by Battlehammer
there vast amounts of street leveler who have taken it to highly strong people. To prtend that halkman briefly fighting black adam makes him well over 2 tons is wrong. If we based people strength level like your trying to do, we have punisher, wolverine, capt, batman DD ect. all well over 2 tons.

it's not the only time hawkman has fought black adam. he's fought plenty of higher tiered people and done fine. he's used his mace to actually hurt people, and even survived against kryptonians.

also, hawkman isn't street level, and adam would rip any of the people you named to shreds if he wanted to.

Originally posted by Raoul
it's not the only time hawkman has fought black adam. he's fought plenty of higher tiered people and done fine. he's used his mace to actually hurt people, and even survived against kryptonians.

also, hawkman isn't street level.

cool, but fighting strong individuals does not make you vastly stronger then 2 tons, as batmna, capt, wolverine, DD ect. can all claim the same.


If he has some strength feats and so forth, then fine, but if were basing this strictly off fights, then we best be ready to call many other far stronger then 2 tons as well.

Originally posted by Raoul
i.

also, hawkman isn't street level, and adam would rip any of the people you named to shreds if he wanted to.
never said he was.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
cool, but fighting strong individuals does not make you vastly stronger then 2 tons, as batmna, capt, wolverine, DD ect. can all claim the same.


If he has some strength feats and so forth, then fine, but if were basing this strictly off fights, then we best be ready to call many other far stronger then 2 tons as well.

as i said, using batman is a false argument, as he has superhuman durability in comics even when he shouldn't.

being able to hurt such strong individuals the way hawkman does would put you over 2 tons.

the others, bar bloody wolverine, can't make the same argument.

Originally posted by Raoul
as i said, using batman is a false argument, as he has superhuman durability in comics even when he shouldn't.

being able to hurt such strong individuals the way hawkman does would put you over 2 tons.

the others, bar bloody wolverine, can't make the same argument.

No it really wouldent, there huge differences in strength and ability to hurt individuals with punches in comics they dont equate to the same thing.

actaully capt can easily make the arguement he done so with many heavy hitters, hell even DD could make the arguement.

so your saying wolverine well over a 2 tonner?

Originally posted by Battlehammer


so your saying wolverine well over a 2 tonner? oh gawd, not this garbage again

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No it really wouldent, there huge differences in strength and ability to hurt individuals with punches in comics they dont equate to the same thing.

actaully capt can easily make the arguement he done so with many heavy hitters, hell even DD could make the arguement.

so your saying wolverine well over a 2 tonner?

he's not using pressure points. or kung fu. or fancy skills. he's flat out hitting people in the face with his mace. the people he hurts would require him to have superhuman strength past 2 tons.

cap is like batman. doesn't count.

matt? god no.

and no, i'm not. he just has fancy claws.

Nth metal FTW.
Team 1 FTL.

^ Batman would beat Hawkman. He's already WTFowned Hawkgirl. And Wolverine eats BP alive. No homo.

Team One wins this.

...so hawkman vs. wolverine was closed for spite in hawkmans favor....

Originally posted by Trackz
...so hawkman vs. wolverine was closed for spite in hawkmans favor....
It was closed because it had been done before. Bada even said as much.

it was closed b/c ppl are basing Hawkman's claw of horus for the win their is no way logan can compete with that. also its bn done already . :P

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
it was closed b/c ppl are basing Hawkman's claw of horus for the win their is no way logan can compete with that. also its bn done already . :P is claw of horus standard equipment? and my bad I didnt see the other thread.

team one probably

Originally posted by Enyalus
^ Batman would beat Hawkman. He's already WTFowned Hawkgirl.

He wouldn't, even Bruce admitted he wouldn't....and Hawkgirl is a far cry from Hawkman he has even owned her worse then Batman did

Originally posted by Trackz
is claw of horus standard equipment? and my bad I didnt see the other thread.

Yes, and the thing is he has other equipment that would be very effective here. Thanagarian neural guns, atom destroyers etc. but I digress, I'm starting to enjoy some of these comments claiming to know Hawkman.

Not true.

Bruce only said that Carter had the advantage straight up due to flight when they faced off briefly in Superman Batman. When they fought JLA, a mind controlled Batman actually defeated Hawkman in hth combat.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Not true.

Bruce only said that Carter had the advantage straight up due to flight when they faced off briefly in Superman Batman. When they fought JLA, a mind controlled Batman actually defeated Hawkman in hth combat.

Your talking about their encounter in Superman/Batman (and we clearly know he has more advantages then just flight), I'm talking about their encounter in Brave & the Bold. He beat Hawman who was holding back trying to get to Batman and he lost his wings as Despero ripped them off and right before he fought Batman he was fighting Aquaman until Despero attacked him. Some key details there.

I brought up this scene because you stated that Bruce admitted that he wouldn't beat Hawkman which he never said. In this encounter, Bruce only says that Carter has an advantage due to flight and nothing else. However, Carter does get in a good blow on Bruce to his credit before Superman and Batman switch opponents.

The only other advantage Carter seems to have btw is his strength and healing factor as far as I can tell.



Actually, you're refering to the JLA: Crisis of Conscience arc not Brave & the Bold which is the fight I'm talking about as well.

As far as holding back goes, it was pretty clear while Carter was trying to talk Bruce down he was also attempting to take him down and failed. His fight with Aquaman IIRC wasn't really shown so we don't know how long that lasted or what happened but Carter really didn't look injuried when he decided to engage Bruce in combat.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a fact that Carter still has Nth metal in his belt and boots as well? So wouldn't he still have access to his abilities?

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
I brought up this scene because you stated that Bruce admitted that he wouldn't beat Hawkman which he never said. In this encounter, Bruce only says that Carter has an advantage due to flight and nothing else. However, Carter does get in a good blow on Bruce to his credit before Superman and Batman switch opponents.

The only other advantage Carter seems to have btw is his strength and healing factor as far as I can tell.

You brought up a reference to a scene I wasn't talking about, he said it in Brave and the Bold. your referencing another event that occured in SUPERMAN/BATMAN...how do you not get that? Yeah and we know Hawkman has far more strengths then that.

He also has technology, durability, speed, experience, animal summoning (giving him powers similar to Animal Man and calling thousands of birds), far superior senses, can suck out the air in the area creating air funnels with his wings, superior reflexes, etc, etc. Hawkman is far more then just a guy who flies.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Actually, you're refering to the JLA: Crisis of Conscience arc not Brave & the Bold which is the fight I'm talking about as well.

As far as holding back goes, it was pretty clear while Carter was trying to talk Bruce down he was also attempting to take him down and failed. His fight with Aquaman IIRC wasn't really shown so we don't know how long that lasted or what happened but Carter really didn't look injuried when he decided to engage Bruce in combat.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a fact that Carter still has Nth metal in his belt and boots as well? So wouldn't he still have access to his abilities?

No I was not refering to that actually I was referencing where Batman said it in BRAVE AND THE BOLD, and Crisis of Consience is the Despero incident which I mentioned earlier. Is this a joke?

Let's put it this way, Hawkman was just earlier holding back Aquaman from fighting and Hawkman's blows have knocked Despero's teeth out, and his punches have hurt Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc. so your actually going to say Batman can merely shrug off blows like he did from a serious Hawkman which clearly he wasn't? Once again I'll ask...is this a joke?

Yes, but some writers don't know that and he admitted they assumed wings were his source of power. Like how when Deastroke fought the JLA and removed Hawkman's wings making him powerless (not true)...DS later went on and beat Green Latnern, Flash and various others in silly ways.

Black Panther, Hawkman FTW

Please enlight me on which Brave and the Bold issue you're talking about then.



I hope you're not suggesting that Carter carries better tech/weaponry then Bruce? The only thing he may have over Bruce in this area is the Claw of Horus and as far as I know he doesn't use this against humans only top tiers.



What are his best showings in endurance? I know about his healing factor but what are some of his best showings?



If you factoring in flight of course he's faster then Bruce.



How often has this made the difference in his fights?

Considering how Bruce has fought and beaten opponents like Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei I don't think it will matter especially since Bruce is a better tactican.



How often does he use this in battle?



This is a given but I don't see it making a big difference.



Which is another trick he doesn't normally use in battle.



I doubt this. But show me examples.



I aware of this but based what I've seen from him thus far I can't say for sure that he's a superior combatant then Bruce which hasn't been that much barring some good showings against top tiers. Granted, to be fair it could just be due to a lack of appearances.



Sorry for the mix up thats my mistake.



Batman has beaten Aquaman in hth combat.



Batman has made Darkseid bleed with a kick (stupid I know but still since we're comparing high showings here...)



Meanwhile, Batman has take down Grodd with 1 kick something that Wally couldn't do with 3000 punches, knocked Kid Amazo off his feet with 1 kick, and even held down Lobo in a choke hold.



Well considering the fact that Batman has withstood repeated blows from the likes of Killer Croc and Clayface who are both much stronger then Bruce and still went on to defeat them in combat yes I would say so. But if you think that Bruce shouldn't be able to withstand blows from Hawkman and still be standing please feel free to try and prove me wrong. I'll be more then glad to show you why Bruce's endurance would enable him to stand up to Carter best blows and still win in straight hth combat.

Also, what highly skilled fighters has Carter beaten that would make you think that he could take Batman for the majority in a hth fight? I'm curious about this.



Interesting enough I've noticed Carter has lost his wings in battle against Slade and The Spider two skilled human fighters.

BTW, I'm really not a fan of the Identity Crisis fight either as it was badly written but still.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Please enlight me on which Brave and the Bold issue you're talking about then.

I'll have to dig up the scans, but I plan on remasterting the Hawkman respect thread


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I hope you're not suggesting that Carter carries better tech/weaponry then Bruce? The only thing he may have over Bruce in this area is the Claw of Horus and as far as I know he doesn't use this against humans only top tiers.

Absolutely, the nth metal have the ability to control the very fundamentals of the universe as noted by Onimar Synn, and his neural gun can instantly KO anyone that gets hit with it. Hawkman has tech that keeps gods at bay ie. The Hawk God. Bruce does not come close and that's a fact.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

What are his best showings in endurance? I know about his healing factor but what are some of his best showings?

Go for weeks without sleep during the Rann/Thanagar war taking on thousands of soliders.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

If you factoring in flight of course he's faster then Bruce.

I'm not, Hawkman is a metahuman that has enhanced phsyical abilities. He can even jump 30 feet int he air without his wings.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

How often has this made the difference in his fights?

Considering how Bruce has fought and beaten opponents like Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei I don't think it will matter especially since Bruce is a better tactican.

Quite abit actually as gainst vampire he pulled out experiences with his previous life when he was a preist, and has used magical abilities from his previous lives too

Hawkman has been fighting for 4,000 years. Hawkman > Batman (experience)

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

How often does he use this in battle?

During vol.3 when he was just Kator Holl he used it quite abit actually, and recently Hawkman has been doing the bird summon thing in battles too even did it a few months ago in JLA: Classified.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

This is a given but I don't see it making a big difference.

What? His senses are so advanced he can follow speedsters, and when Flash was vibrating so fast only Hawkman could see him as he was invisable to everyone else. This helps in his reaction time.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Which is another trick he doesn't normally use in battle..

What? He has used that quite frequently actually, and even uses the wind attack to reverse attacks against other people like what he did against Captain Boomerang.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I doubt this. But show me examples.

There's a whole respect thread laid out, he routinely fights and beats mind you speedsters

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I aware of this but based what I've seen from him thus far I can't say for sure that he's a superior combatant then Bruce which hasn't been that much barring some good showings against top tiers. Granted, to be fair it could just be due to a lack of appearances.

Then I suggest you read more as he has a lot of apperances and consistently goes against top tier fighters

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Batman has beaten Aquaman in hth combat.

When he was weakened, and Aquaman has one-shotted Batman...twice.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Batman has made Darkseid bleed with a kick (stupid I know but still since we're comparing high showings here...)

once again after DS was weakened as he was taking a full blast from Highfather's staff.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Meanwhile, Batman has take down Grodd with 1 kick something that Wally couldn't do with 3000 punches, knocked Kid Amazo off his feet with 1 kick, and even held down Lobo in a choke hold.

Errrr? Wally has one-shotted Grodd before. He held Lobo in a choke hold but overall did nothing.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Well considering the fact that Batman has withstood repeated blows from the likes of Killer Croc and Clayface who are both much stronger then Bruce and still went on to defeat them in combat yes I would say so. But if you think that Bruce shouldn't be able to withstand blows from Hawkman and still be standing please feel free to try and prove me wrong. I'll be more then glad to show you why Bruce's endurance would enable him to stand up to Carter best blows and still win in straight hth combat.

Also, what highly skilled fighters has Carter beaten that would make you think that he could take Batman for the majority in a hth fight? I'm curious about this.

Hawkman is far stronger then Croc and Clayface, so I don't get that comparision. In vol.3, mace attacks even rocked SUperman. So no I don't think Batman can shrug off blows from a serious Hawkman.

He's destroyed Vandal Savage close to 10 times, and Vandal as noted is one of the best fighters in the DCU. Then you have the thangarian priests that lived for 100 years training to fight, Deadline, etc, etc.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Interesting enough I've noticed Carter has lost his wings in battle against Slade and The Spider two skilled human fighters.

BTW, I'm really not a fan of the Identity Crisis fight either as it was badly written but still.

When he fought the spider the written went with without the wings he was powerless, but a few issues later Hawkgirl was flying without the wings.

Originally posted by -K-M-

Let's put it this way, Hawkman was just earlier holding back Aquaman from fighting and Hawkman's blows have knocked Despero's teeth out, and his punches have hurt Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc. so your actually going to say Batman can merely shrug off blows like he did from a serious Hawkman which clearly he wasn't? Once again I'll ask...is this a joke?
Batman beat the shit out of Aquaman straight up. Trading punches.

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman beat the shit out of Aquaman straight up. Trading punches.


Weakened damn it!

I think I am changing my vote Batman solos.

You do know I'm talking about standard gear here and not the full arsenal of resources that both have access to? I'm not about to say that Bruce will pull out his new genesis boom tube glove and use it from his sci-fi closest (btw Bruce has Thanagarian wings) and use it for this fight especially when he don't normally see him do that.

But if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that Carter carries around tech of this caliber at all times? If this were the case why is it that he hasn't pulled it out against any top tiers when he's fought them? So either Carter doesn't carry around tech like this normally as you may think or he perfers to fight more like a warrior and engage in melee combat like Bruce does when fighting 1 on 1 against skilled opponents.



That's it? Impressive but I'll need more then this especially since I'm leaning more towards endurance showings that show how well he can take punishment.



So show me some speed feats. If he's really faster then Bruce I'll fairly concede to the fact that he is.



Yet again we've seen Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei (who's has centuries of combat training and was still outsmarted) get beaten by Bruce. Experience is NOT gonna play a big factor in this battle especially when Bruce is a superior tactican then Carter despite his experience which should tell you that it won't matter.



When I said how often I should've said how often does he use it in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman for example because he doesn't seem to do it at all judging from the fights I've seen him in.



Bruce's deductive reasoning would counter that. As proof of this, we've seen Bruce quickly deduce how Tezumak was actually anticipating Flash's attacks in battle while Flash myself thought it was because Tezumak was just fast enough to do so. There's also Bruce's stealth to consider something that Carter wouldn't have an answer for even with his senses.



One showing isn't enough for me. Show me examples where he normally uses this trick in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman.

That's not to say however that I'm totally writting off this tactic but I need examples of him using regularly in 1 on 1 fights.



Like who? I'm aware of his showing in JSA but what else?



Believe it or not I'm actually a Hawkman fan as well (no where near as big as you obviously) but I'm just saying I haven't actually seen him go up against many top tier combatants like Batman has and do well especially when he's lost to Bruce in hth combat.

In otherwords, I need to see examples of how well he does against highly skilled opponents similar to Bruce not top tiers.



No he wasn't.

However, Arthur does mention that he wasn't fully used to being outside of water since this was back when the JLA was still in its early stages and both Bruce and Arthur were younger. He was definitely at full power but I will say that Arthur has become more powerful since then.

As far as Aquaman one shotting Batman goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen since Arthur is far stronger after all but you should know that Bruce has withstood attacks from much more stronger then Aruthur and gotten quickly back on his feet to fight consistently.

Still, I'd like to know where those 1 shotting encounters happened that you're talking about.



Actually, DS was back on his feet moments later after being blasted and admitted to Dessad that his omega powers had been restored on top of taking repeated punches from an enraged Superman not to long after Batman's kick.



Croc maybe... but Clayface no way.

Considering that Batman actually took a shot to the face from Hawkman's mace and was still able to continue fighting (on top of having just went through a gauntlet of super villains and heroes alongside Superman) I still don't buy you're agruement.



Vandal is impressive but what martial artists has Carter had good showings against on the same level as Bruce or better? Getting beaten in hth combat by Bruce is what makes me believe Carter isn't as good as you may believe him to be. So unless, you can show me examples of him defeating martial artists like Bruce in hth combat I can't buy you're story that he's a superior combatant.



Huh?

I must be mistaken again then because I'm talking about the time when he fought the Spider alongside Green Arrow and lost his wings in battle causing him to go into freefall.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
You do know I'm talking about standard gear here and not the full arsenal of resources that both have access to? I'm not about to say that Bruce will pull out his new genesis boom tube glove and use it from his sci-fi closest (btw Bruce has Thanagarian wings) and use it for this fight especially when he don't normally see him do that.

But if I'm understanding you correctly you're saying that Carter carries around tech of this caliber at all times? If this were the case why is it that he hasn't pulled it out against any top tiers when he's fought them? So either Carter doesn't carry around tech like this normally as you may think or he perfers to fight more like a warrior and engage in melee combat like Bruce does when fighting 1 on 1 against skilled opponents.

I know, and generally Hawkman does carry around hus guns he did it all for vol.3, but currently he just uses his mace but he often switches up the weapons he uses as shown in JSA and his main series. The Thanagarian wings are not the best tech from the Thanagarians far from it. Bruce has lost his boom tube device (Hawman has zeta beams anyways). It depends on the writer as even Hawkgirl has carrying around the claw of horus for abit, and carried around her thanagarian gun and her mace.

So it should be specified what time period were using Hawkman at, as he had different standard gears at different times. Currently, he predominetly just uses his mace, bolas and sometimes a shield

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

That's it? Impressive but I'll need more then this especially since I'm leaning more towards endurance showings that show how well he can take punishment.

That's it? your joking right. During the Rann/Thanagar Hawkman was doing things like killing thousands of Gordanians (know them) without breaking a sweat. As noted by Atom, Hawkman "giggles at anything less then third degree burns"

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

So show me some speed feats. If he's really faster then Bruce I'll fairly concede to the fact that he is.

*points to respect thread* It's laid out


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Yet again we've seen Ra's Al Ghul and The Sensei (who's has centuries of combat training and was still outsmarted) get beaten by Bruce. Experience is NOT gonna play a big factor in this battle especially when Bruce is a superior tactican then Carter despite his experience which should tell you that it won't matter.

and I would even argue that Vanadal Savage is a superior fighrer then Ra's (not Sensi), but Sensi gassed out in a minute as before he was completly and utterly destroying bruce. Basically it came down to having durability, which Hawkman has in spades. Experience always plays a factor, in any fight real or fact experience has continually been shown and stated to make a difference

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

When I said how often I should've said how often does he use it in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman for example because he doesn't seem to do it at all judging from the fights I've seen him in. .

He used it against Green Latnern, Deadline, tracking some thugs, used it to boost his speed. Just to note he isn't on the same level of Animal Man, it's on a much smaller scale.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Bruce's deductive reasoning would counter that. As proof of this, we've seen Bruce quickly deduce how Tezumak was actually anticipating Flash's attacks in battle while Flash myself thought it was because Tezumak was just fast enough to do so. There's also Bruce's stealth to consider something that Carter wouldn't have an answer for even with his senses..

haha what? So Bruce is going to use his stealth against someone that can hear for miles and count the flaps of a hummingbird with his detective skills? Come on now. Your example doesn't really counter his senses as they still would be there.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

One showing isn't enough for me. Show me examples where he normally uses this trick in 1 on 1 fights against opponents like Batman.

That's not to say however that I'm totally writting off this tactic but I need examples of him using regularly in 1 on 1 fights.

Haha ok, I merely just listed just one example but he has done it against Shadow Theif, Johnny Quick, Hawkwoman, Thanagarian hawks, uses his wind currents to make a sand screen to cover the area so no one could see him, and in Brave & Bold #44 Hawkwoman and him used wind blasts that were to lift up a huge water spurt and carried to over to put out a forest fire, and in another scene he used his wind attacks to fight thugs and it was said the wind attack was "several hundred miles an hour"etc. He uses his wind attacks quite abit

You sure seem to love to try to discredit Hawkman and ignore all his abilities and feats.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Like who? I'm aware of his showing in JSA but what else?

Johnny Quick, Flash

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Believe it or not I'm actually a Hawkman fan as well (no where near as big as you obviously) but I'm just saying I haven't actually seen him go up against many top tier combatants like Batman has and do well especially when he's lost to Bruce in hth combat.

In otherwords, I need to see examples of how well he does against highly skilled opponents similar to Bruce not top tiers.

Sure doesn't seem it at all especially with some of your comments, and with the Batman incident there was circumstances with it.

Once again respect thread


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

No he wasn't.

However, Arthur does mention that he wasn't fully used to being outside of water since this was back when the JLA was still in its early stages and both Bruce and Arthur were younger. He was definitely at full power but I will say that Arthur has become more powerful since then.

As far as Aquaman one shotting Batman goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it did happen since Arthur is far stronger after all but you should know that Bruce has withstood attacks from much more stronger then Aruthur and gotten quickly back on his feet to fight consistently.

Still, I'd like to know where those 1 shotting encounters happened that you're talking about.

He was, he even said so in his regular series

and here's one instance as it's not posted anywhere else. I will try to upload the other one in the next few days (the other one was underwater so doesn't count I suppose)

1. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/bb82_10.jpg
2. http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii315/darkseidres2/bb82_11.jpg/url]

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Actually, DS was back on his feet moments later after being blasted and admitted to Dessad that his omega powers had been restored on top of taking repeated punches from an enraged Superman not to long after Batman's kick. .

He was back on his feet but to say he was at full power is silly considering what Batman did. He even went on to defeat Batman and then Superman speedblized him and ran away in a manner never seen by DS before.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Croc maybe... but Clayface no way.

Considering that Batman actually took a shot to the face from Hawkman's mace and was still able to continue fighting (on top of having just went through a gauntlet of super villains and heroes alongside Superman) I still don't buy you're agruement.

Once again yeah no. Hawkman has shown to toss a spaceship and have destroyed Rann and Thanagar cruisers with one blow. your being a tad silly now

Serious Hawkman knocked out Despero's teeth when he was fighting Superman and Captain Marvel and they didn't do the damage he did.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Vandal is impressive but what martial artists has Carter had good showings against on the same level as Bruce or better? Getting beaten in hth combat by Bruce is what makes me believe Carter isn't as good as you may believe him to be. So unless, you can show me examples of him defeating martial artists like Bruce in hth combat I can't buy you're story that he's a superior combatant.

Well Vanadal Savage has beat Bruce, and another time stalemated him so there's thatOnce again Carter was not fighting seriously or his face would have been caved in similar to what he did to Despero. Isn't as good as I believe him to be? You do know in JSA that routinely state he is one of the best fights on the Earth right? One again that's what the respect thread is for, it doesn't have everything but it's a good outline. He also routinely defeats Hath Set, but they have been very vague just how skilled he is/

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Huh?

I must be mistaken again then because I'm talking about the time when he fought the Spider alongside Green Arrow and lost his wings in battle causing him to go into freefall.

That's what I'm talking about the writer assumed if you took his wings away you take away his powers, which isn't the case.

I'm refering to what Carter normally carries around with him and what he uses when he fights other combatants 1 on 1. The weaponry you just mentioned is basically what I normally see him use when going up against formidable street level fighters. Which is my point when I say that Bruce has better standard tech/weaponry on him compared to Carter that both would use against one another without going OOC.



I want to see how Carter's damage soak compares to Batman's. This is not hardly enough. Considering how Bruce can come out exploding buildings unfazed due to his body armor the remark by Atom doesn't impress me too much.

I'm talking more along the lines of how well he can take a hit more then anything causes thats what really matters in battle.





Well I could point you to my Batman site (Batman Capability Website) but I'd still like at least 3-5 examples from you so I can fairly compare the two. Otherwise, whats the point of us debating at all or anyone for that matter?



The Sensei failed to defeat Bruce in a minute as The Sensei stated that's all he'd need to defeat Bruce and to his surprise Bruce outlasted him despite all the brutal punishment Sensei dished out plus he was still defeated/outsmarted. As you can see, battle savvy combined with damage soak is what allowed Bruce to win that fight. Given Carter's performance against Bruce in hth combat I don't see him doing any better.

Yes, experience does matter but when you're facing someone who's clearly a smarter fighter then you and is more skilled that really doesn't play that big a role. As we've seen Bruce still defeat people with much greater experience then him.



GL is a top tier and Deadline is just one example. So that's really not enough for me to go on. If he doesn't normally use it in battle it wouldn't play a factor here.



You're not serious by saying this are you? Are you sure you're familiar with Batman?

You are aware that Batman has managed to sneak up on Superman regularly right? Even disappear out of sight of him when they first met to Clark's own surprise who began questioning how he was able to do so.

As far as his deduction goes, believe it or not its not just for solving crimes (as I just proved to you in the previous example) he's also used it to exploit weaknesses against his opponents, deduce how powers work, and even detect people attempting to use invisibility on him.



That's a little better but I still need more evidence of him regularly doing against fighters like Batman or Deathstroke for example.

We know he's capable of doing this thats not the issue for me. My issue is how often does he use this against street level fighters like Batman and how it made the difference in battle.



Quite the opposite I'm trying to understand what abilities he normally uses as oppossed to just looking at his high showings and saying he'd automatically use such a tactic. That would be like me saying that Bruce would use liquid nitrogen to freeze Carter or simply take him out with a kill strike technique. Is he capable of doing such things? Of course. But since we're talking about these two acting in character and fighting as they normally do it doesn't apply.



That's more like it.

We've seen Bruce in turn dodge and take out Kid Flash (Wally) with 1 blow while fighting off the rest of the Teen Titans, catch Impulse who was moving around and talking annoying fast, and react fast enough to launch an attack of sonics against Johnny Quick who was moving fast enough to nullify his sonics.

If this were he case why he doesn't say anything about it in the issue which tells me the writer intended for there fight to happen that way. Or the writer was unaware of this if what you say is true.

Still, I'd like the issue you're talking about.



No wonder I've never heard of it since it happened pre-crisis. I mostly go by post-crisis showings for DC characters not that I'm writing that off it's just that post-crisis Batman is much more formidable then he ever was in his pre-crisis days. I can easily point out showings that counter that like withstanding an enraged attack from a shapeshifter mimicking the powers of Martian Manhunter and still managing to win.



Going by what Darkseid himself says to Deesad he clearly was and thats the reason why I said it was stupid how Bruce managed to pull that off. Also, he didn't defeat Batman he took him by surprise and the fact that he was taking super speed attacks from an angry Superman no less after the fact is further evidence to support that he was at full power. If you remember it was Superman who put him into the source wall and thats the reason why he ran off saying he didn't want to go back. So either Batman was made class 100 for 1 panel there or it was a case of inconsistent writing which equals a high showing for Bruce (which it clearly was).



So you're saying Hawkman could physically restrain Wonder Woman with 1 hand, deck Supergirl, and even overpower Power Girl cause thats exactly what Clayface has done. If Hawkman truly is this physically strong then he'd have to be top tier himself which he definitely isn't.



I'm aware of the Virtue and Vice showing but I hope you're not suggesting that physically Carter is top tier just because he can do that with his mace. I'm talking physical strength here.



Sorry I don't buy that Carter wasn't fighting seriously when he was definitely attempting to put Bruce down as he even hit Bruce over the head with clock for crying out loud. That doesn't sound like someone who's holding back at all especially against someone who claims to be your friend. Why would he pick up a clock to hit Bruce with anyway if he hits as powerful as you claim? He should've been able to drop Bruce with 1 punch and subdue him that way but he clearly couldn't as he ultimately lost that battle fairly whether you want to admit to it or not. Hawkman using his mace to hurt top tiers and his displays of physical strength/power are clearly two different things for Carter.

Interesting enough in Virtue and Vice we saw Batman and Terrific send Carter (unexpectedly) flying with a combined punch. We've also seen Bruce put Carter down with a punch when Carter got in his face in Crisis of Conscience.

BTW, can you tell the comic where Bruce fights Vandal Savage please?



I'll believe him to be that good when I see him actually beat or stalemate fighters of high skill caliber like Batman. Him losing to Bruce is what really makes me believe he isn't (at least not in hth combat anyway). With standard gear and nth metal however I definitely see this being true.



We've established this already. My point of bringing that showing up is that he lost his wings in battle against a skilled archer with no powers as well as against Slade two skilled street level combatants that he's fought. If he were to lose his wings in battle against Batman he'd lose the advantage that Bruce mentions he has over him.

Sorry I'm going to be gone for the next few days as I need to study for finals, I'll be back and reply soon as I can.

Actually I will make a quick post, and this will be it for me for a few days. sorry

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
I'm refering to what Carter normally carries around with him and what he uses when he fights other combatants 1 on 1. The weaponry you just mentioned is basically what I normally see him use when going up against formidable street level fighters. Which is my point when I say that Bruce has better standard tech/weaponry on him compared to Carter that both would use against one another without going OOC.


I know, hence why I said depening on what timeline of Hawkman can vary what he uses. Kator Hol generally always had his thanagarian gun at all times that destroyed atoms and disintegrated anything that was hit. Hawkman in vol.4 used rifles, axes, shields, armor, etc. as his standard equipment for quite some time. It's only pre-crisis Hawkman and current which basically only rely on a mace/hammer.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I want to see how Carter's damage soak compares to Batman's. This is not hardly enough. Considering how Bruce can come out exploding buildings unfazed due to his body armor the remark by Atom doesn't impress me too much.

I'm talking more along the lines of how well he can take a hit more then anything causes thats what really matters in battle.

*points to respect thread* and so has Hawkman, and with his healing factor in addition to his durability to definetly trumps Batman's durability. For example...

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Hawkmanv42808.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/Hawkmanv42809.jpg

Hawkman can takes blows from a pissed off Black Adam, Despero, Gog, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, etc and still be fine. There's no question about it Hawkman's durability far surpasses Batman due to his metahuman physical abilities

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Well I could point you to my Batman site (Batman Capability Website) but I'd still like at least 3-5 examples from you so I can fairly compare the two. Otherwise, whats the point of us debating at all or anyone for that matter?


and I know it, I was even going to make a remasted respect thread for him and on this board I frequently defend Batman in debates. I know him quite well.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

The Sensei failed to defeat Bruce in a minute as The Sensei stated that's all he'd need to defeat Bruce and to his surprise Bruce outlasted him despite all the brutal punishment Sensei dished out plus he was still defeated/outsmarted. As you can see, battle savvy combined with damage soak is what allowed Bruce to win that fight. Given Carter's performance against Bruce in hth combat I don't see him doing any better.

That's due to his damage soak not really his overall skill, and Hawkman has battle savvy and high damage soak so don't get why your making it out to be a great feat as it's not. Batman was getting destroyed. Once again your ignoring the circumstances.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Yes, experience does matter but when you're facing someone who's clearly a smarter fighter then you and is more skilled that really doesn't play that big a role. As we've seen Bruce still defeat people with much greater experience then him.

Incorrect, as Hawkman has shown to call abilities up that he may not generally use such as magic or sword skills when he was traveling around as ronin. You make it sound like Hawkman is not a skilled fighter, when he is always refered to be one of the finest himself.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

GL is a top tier and Deadline is just one example. So that's really not enough for me to go on. If he doesn't normally use it in battle it wouldn't play a factor here.

Good god, you need apparently need like 100 examples to take something serious apparently. Actually vol.3 ie. Kator Hol used it quite frequently as he was trained to use it from a shaman. Your being down right silly now.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

You're not serious by saying this are you? Are you sure you're familiar with Batman?

You are aware that Batman has managed to sneak up on Superman regularly right? Even disappear out of sight of him when they first met to Clark's own surprise who began questioning how he was able to do so.

As far as his deduction goes, believe it or not its not just for solving crimes (as I just proved to you in the previous example) he's also used it to exploit weaknesses against his opponents, deduce how powers work, and even detect people attempting to use invisibility on him.

Most definetly, and quite as I mentioned above. I even still have all the scans of when I was going to make the remastered thread

Because Superman is generally not paying attention (As stated) which he mentions as he is focused on something else. When Superman is expecting Batman he does not evade him, and in this fight Hawkman knows Batman is coming so he is not going to evade anything.

Yes he can use it to point out weakenesses, but that's only going to get you so far one on one and when the person like Hawkman who is battle ready and generally out for blood.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

That's a little better but I still need more evidence of him regularly doing against fighters like Batman or Deathstroke for example.

We know he's capable of doing this thats not the issue for me. My issue is how often does he use this against street level fighters like Batman and how it made the difference in battle.

He far as I know only has fought DS once, and Batman twice so you won't see an example of him using it on them but he has done it on various others and the rules of the board dicatate he can use it here.

He does it more times, in battles and in situations that requires it then your giving him credit

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Quite the opposite I'm trying to understand what abilities he normally uses as oppossed to just looking at his high showings and saying he'd automatically use such a tactic. That would be like me saying that Bruce would use liquid nitrogen to freeze Carter or simply take him out with a kill strike technique. Is he capable of doing such things? Of course. But since we're talking about these two acting in character and fighting as they normally do it doesn't apply.

and I mentioned the ones he does regular use and then you said nope not enough times even though he consistently has used them for years and years. That's the very defintion of low-balling a character. Also Hawkman can survive in space without aid and broken free from Captain Cold's ice gun, that tactic won't work


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

That's more like it.

We've seen Bruce in turn dodge and take out Kid Flash (Wally) with 1 blow while fighting off the rest of the Teen Titans, catch Impulse who was moving around and talking annoying fast, and react fast enough to launch an attack of sonics against Johnny Quick who was moving fast enough to nullify his sonics.

You talking about Teen Titans: Year One? That was when Batman was controlled by that demon and that was Wally when he was completly inexperienced and not battle tested. Not the same at all

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
If this were he case why he doesn't say anything about it in the issue which tells me the writer intended for there fight to happen that way. Or the writer was unaware of this if what you say is true.

Still, I'd like the issue you're talking about.

Because it was a way to portray Batman at the time in a positive light

Im working on a Aquaman respect thread, I'll see if I can scan in next week when my finals are done.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

No wonder I've never heard of it since it happened pre-crisis. I mostly go by post-crisis showings for DC characters not that I'm writing that off it's just that post-crisis Batman is much more formidable then he ever was in his pre-crisis days. I can easily point out showings that counter that like withstanding an enraged attack from a shapeshifter mimicking the powers of Martian Manhunter and still managing to win.

Except that scene was refercened to happening post-crisis too, and the other time I'm talking about was AM one-shotted Batman but like I mentioned earlier that was underwater (so not exactually fair)


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

Going by what Darkseid himself says to Deesad he clearly was and thats the reason why I said it was stupid how Bruce managed to pull that off. Also, he didn't defeat Batman he took him by surprise and the fact that he was taking super speed attacks from an angry Superman no less after the fact is further evidence to support that he was at full power. If you remember it was Superman who put him into the source wall and thats the reason why he ran off saying he didn't want to go back. So either Batman was made class 100 for 1 panel there or it was a case of inconsistent writing which equals a high showing for Bruce (which it clearly was).

but what we saw supports he was weakened, as even the barrage of Superman later didn't do what Batman did. Also no it also can be the fact he recovers as DS was adjusting to having his powers back. Simply as that, and yes he ran away in a manner that DS has never done. I know as I have made the DS respect thread.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

So you're saying Hawkman could physically restrain Wonder Woman with 1 hand, deck Supergirl, and even overpower Power Girl cause thats exactly what Clayface has done. If Hawkman truly is this physically strong then he'd have to be top tier himself which he definitely isn't.

I know those incidents and actually yes, as Kator did restrain Wonder Woman and decked Supergirl too (Hawkman v.3 era). HW far as I know hasn't dealt with Powergirl (but it's possible as they were on 3 teams together), but he still has restrained and flat out beat Aquaman when during the pre-crisis era and part of post he was mostly just a human that could breath underwater.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I'm aware of the Virtue and Vice showing but I hope you're not suggesting that physically Carter is top tier just because he can do that with his mace. I'm talking physical strength here.

He's not top tier, but he's still super strong. As I mentioned even his punches have hurt WOnder Woman (JLA Classified #48).


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost
Sorry I don't buy that Carter wasn't fighting seriously when he was definitely attempting to put Bruce down as he even hit Bruce over the head with clock for crying out loud. That doesn't sound like someone who's holding back at all especially against someone who claims to be your friend. Why would he pick up a clock to hit Bruce with anyway if he hits as powerful as you claim? He should've been able to drop Bruce with 1 punch and subdue him that way but he clearly couldn't as he ultimately lost that battle fairly whether you want to admit to it or not. Hawkman using his mace to hurt top tiers and his displays of physical strength/power are clearly two different things for Carter.

Interesting enough in Virtue and Vice we saw Batman and Terrific send Carter (unexpectedly) flying with a combined punch. We've also seen Bruce put Carter down with a punch when Carter got in his face in Crisis of Conscience.

BTW, can you tell the comic where Bruce fights Vandal Savage please?

Of course you don't, as you really don't like practically anything Hawkman has done. Yeah a clock is a far cry from punches that have hurt Martian Manhunter, Grundy, etc. Once again the writer believed Hawkman to be powerless without his wings, and we even saw just before he had enough strength to hold Aquaman who in the same ark was going toe to toe with Despero. If you honestly believe he was going all out when he was even trying to tell Bruce to snap out of it is silly.

You mean the time he quickly got up from and told Bruce he was going to give him 10 minutes he would never forgot. Also meh! just before HW nearly had his arm cut off and was healing and it was a sucker punch...wow. Seriously how are you not low-balling Hawkman again?

I'll try to track it down, it was a Brave and Bold issue where they stalemated, and a JSA where Vandal beat him.

Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

I'll believe him to be that good when I see him actually beat or stalemate fighters of high skill caliber like Batman. Him losing to Bruce is what really makes me believe he isn't (at least not in hth combat anyway). With standard gear and nth metal however I definitely see this being true.

That's because he is one of the good guys and won't fight Batman especially when he isn't on the team. Does that mean he isn't skilled? No far from it, do I think Batman is more skilled? Definetly, but that's merely one aspect of many that can dictate the fight and Hawkman has way more advantages over Batman, then Batman has over him. That's a fact.


Originally posted by Phantom Ghost

We've established this already. My point of bringing that showing up is that he lost his wings in battle against a skilled archer with no powers as well as against Slade two skilled street level combatants that he's fought. If he were to lose his wings in battle against Batman he'd lose the advantage that Bruce mentions he has over him.

Except for as noted he wouldn't actually lose his abilities as noted in the comics. Even Hawkgirl showed without her wings or nth metal she still had physical abilities due to being overexposed to the nth metal. Rules of the board do not follow your thinking.

Actually that's my last post here, you can reply but that's it for me. You are consistently low-balling Hawkman and I don't see you changing. I'll leave it at that.

Hawkman is the biggest threat here being the most powerful/versatile

I agree with this.



In the same token we've seen Bruce withstand attacks from Mongul, Grundy, The General, and even Superman (who tried to kill him twice no less) and still get back on his feet moments later to continue fighting. I will say if Carter does have an edge in durability its due to his healing factor as I said before. Nothing I've seen him from suggests he's far superior like you say.



Huh?

I never said Batman beat The Sensei due to his skill I said it was due to his battle savvy (wits) combined with damage soak. All I'm saying is that I don't see Carter don't any better then Bruce in hth combat against The Sensei given that he doesn't have that many good straight hth showings and lost to Bruce.



I disagree.

There's a reason why everyone in the DCU go to Batman for battle plans over Carter even with his experience. It's because he normally is the guy who comes up with the winning battle plan and its why Superman is so annoyed with him always being right.

And I'm not saying that Carter isn't highly skilled. I'm saying he's not as skilled as Batman nor as smart a combatant.



I'm looking for consistent showings but I'd say 3 is enough actually. Deadline is only 1 example which isn't enough.



Actually, when Superman first met Batman he came to arrest him and attempted to take him in by surprise with Batman disappearing straight out of Superman's sight then appeared right behind him to his surprise. This is the reason why Clark questioned whether or not he was metahuman with Bruce responding that he merely used the environment around him to get around his senses.

This is including the time when he hid in the Watchtower for an hour and Superman mentions that he couldnt hear his heart beat all that time (Bruce mentions using a gadget here) or when Bruce sneaks into a military base and Superman & Martain Manhunter couldn't even see/detect him to Clark's amazement.

It doesn't matter if Hawkman knows if Bruce is coming or not since he still won't be able to detect him once he employs stealth.



Being that Bruce can use deduction to point out weaknesses and deduce exactly how Carter's powers work (although he already does since he's come up with plans on to how defeat almost all the heroes in the DCU just in case they go rogue) combined with his superior battle savvy I can't see how Hawkman wouldn't struggle a lot against Bruce.





The only problem I have with this tactic is that we don't regular see him use it against other streets in 1 on 1 fights as he typically perfers to battle things out straight up from what I've seen of him. That's what I'm talking about.



You're leaving out the fact that the Titans had just captured a mind controlled Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash, and Green Arrow only in teams of 2 or 3 for each leaguer. They took on Batman all at the sametime (minus Robin) and couldn't stop him or so much as land a hit on him. The fact that Bruce manages to dodge then catch and drop Wally with 1 blow without looking no less while busy taking down the rest of the Titans is damn impressive speed.

Of course it is and that's why I consider it a high showing and not an average portrayal for Bruce but it doesn't change the fact that it happened.



Yes but you have to understand that Pre-Crisis Batman and Post-Crisis Batman are portrayed differently. Post-Crisis Batman is written much more impressively then he was in his PC days and thats why I typically go by how Bruce is now portrayed as oppossed to PC showings although I'm not saying its not cannon.

Ironically, I just looked up another PC brave and the bold comic where they teamed up and later fought and this is what happened:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/th_bb-batvaq1.jpghttp://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/th_bb-batvaq2.jpg

The fact that Bruce is able to withstand a punch from an angry Aquaman and then bring Arthur to his knees with a human crippling punch is enough reason for me to believe why the writer wrote their fight the way he did. Although I still consider it a high showing including this battle.

And the other time you mentioned where Aquaman one shotted Batman underwater, what actually happened was that Arthur cut off Bruce's oxygen supply underwater just enough so Arthur could subdue him. Not really a fight there or anything worth noting.



That's the reason why I said its an example of inconsistent writing nothing more which is why it doesn't make sense.



I'll have to look up those issues but Clayface restraining Diana with merely 1 hand while smiling about it no less pretty much tells me he's definitely far stronger Carter. I'm not sure about which Supergirl you're talking about but I'm refering to the current Supergirl who's on the same level as Superman not Linda Danvers. Clayface was also easily overpowering and restraining Power Girl in the example I was talking about too. This is not something I can see Carter even come close to doing in physical strength as he would have to be top tier in order to do so.



In turn we've seen that Batman has gotten the upperhand on a demon possessed Wonder Woman in hth combat and managed to hurt her in a sparring contest back when she was blind.





So you're telling me that Hawkman a guy who has centuries of combat experience choose to use a clock to aid in his attempt to subdue Bruce instead of simply using on his natural skill to put him down? What happened to all the combat experience and skill? Why would he use a clock at all when Bruce was unarmed while fighting him? Sorry but that doesn't sound like someone holding back as you say or someone being as friendly about things at all.

Also, I'm not saying this is how a fight between the two would go normally (if this what you're thinking) as it wouldn't and hasn't as shown in their brief exchange in Superman Batman. I'm saying when it comes to pure skill in hth combat Bruce is clearly superior according to this battle.



You missed the point.

I mentioned this encounter because it showed Bruce clearly knocking down Carter with a punch despite Carter's durability and even made Carter draw blood. This is an example of Carter going against street level characters and closer to what I'm looking for.



You missed my point again.

Carter lost his wings in battle against The Spider and Bruce mentioned in Superman Batman that it was the advantage Carter had over him and he said nothing about his other abilities just flight that really give him the advantage in battle. What I'm saying is that if Bruce can make this a 1 on 1 melee fight then they would then be fighting more on his terms making this an even closer fight.



This is funny considering the fact that I can see a straight up battle between Bruce and Carter going either way (hell I didn't even mention my official stance on the actual battle as I didn't care). The only reason why I even got into this debate was because you said that Bruce mentioned that he wouldn't beat Hawkman when his showings say otherwise.

Still, it was nice debating with you anyway despite our disagreement. BTW, can you PM me those Vandal Savage issue numbers sometime?