Wolverine vs Batman vs Captain america H2H ONLY

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Darth_noodle
Batman with no gadgets, Captain America with no shield, and Logan with no Claws or healing factor. He still gets his Adamatium bones. This is pure H2H skill. Who is the better martial artist?

SamZED
Either Batman or Cap because Wolverine wouldn't survive having an adamantium skeleton without his hf.
In terms of MA skills I believe Logan and Cap are more experienced than Batman, but this is a very close fight. They all stand an equel chance.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by SamZED
Either Batman or Cap because Wolverine wouldn't survive having an adamantium skeleton without his hf.

It wouldn't take him out instantly.

Darth_noodle
*sigh* -_________________- *SLaps self on the face*
Ok Ok....Wolvie does not have Adamantium.
Forget all the details, just Who is the most skilled martial artist.

grimify
Batman

godking
Originally posted by Darth_noodle
Batman with no gadgets, Captain America with no shield, and Logan with no Claws or healing factor. He still gets his Adamatium bones. This is pure H2H skill. Who is the better martial artist? Under the conditions of the match Captain america is the clear winner . Wolverine would be better of without his adamantium without his healing factor his adamantium becomes a liability.

Darth_noodle
Originally posted by Darth_noodle
*sigh* -_________________- *SLaps self on the face*
Ok Ok....Wolvie does not have Adamantium.
Forget all the details, just Who is the most skilled martial artist.

Wild Shadow
in hand to hand logan is by far rhe most knowledgeable and dealiest of the three.

wolverine
bats
cap

logan is also well versed in pressure point attacks that can kill and is faster then both of them in reflex especially without the adamantium.

MrHeavySilence
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
in hand to hand logan is by far rhe most knowledgeable and dealiest of the three.

wolverine
bats
cap

logan is also well versed in pressure point attacks that can kill and is faster then both of them in reflex especially without the adamantium.

I'm pretty sure ALL three of them can use pressure point attacks..


I'm super biased so I pull for Bats because he still has the suit.. but Cap is clever too and has super serum, so either one of them. Logan's the weak link without his healing factor.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by MrHeavySilence
I'm pretty sure ALL three of them can use pressure point attacks..


I'm super biased so I pull for Bats because he still has the suit.. but Cap is clever too and has super serum, so either one of them. Logan's the weak link without his healing factor.


not really one hit from logan will literally crumble the two into a pile rocks.

wolverine can see and or sense the weak points in bats armor. just like the inhuman dude.

Metalmanx
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
not really one hit from logan will literally crumble the two into a pile rocks.

wolverine can see and or sense the weak points in bats armor. just like the inhuman dude.

...What the f**k?

Enyalus
Batman's the most skilled martial artist, IMO. Mastery of at least 127 main martial art forms.


I think Captain America would beat him for a majority because of his higher physical stats. With his HF, so would Logan. Without it, I'd probably give the advantage to Batman over Wolverine.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Metalmanx
...What the f**k?


http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/?action=view&current=WMD_04_Oroboros_DCP_016.jpg



:P yeah logan can see sense pressure points

if you want to use the 127 known forms i have to point out that wolverine knows most of the worlds martial arts both armed and unarmed combat as well as extraterrestial combat. as listed in his bio.


now i think most ppl are also forgetting that wolverine is physically stronger then either his opponent strong enough to kill and or decapitate them with a punch or kick this is even without the adamantium.


the x men ecyclopedia has him listed as a level 4 strength on par with sabe whih has bn demostrated in comics.

JakeTheBank
One thing that always strikes me odd, is that while Logan has apparently all of this skill and mastered arts of hand to hand combat, he rarely utilizes it. Rather he just either beserkers or just claws and slashes. I know he can use the skill, it just seems like he doesn't.

I think Cap would be the favorite due to his physical superiority. Batman would be next in line because of his skill set, with Logan coming in third.

Wild Shadow
so this has less to do with what the characters are capable of and more to do with who we like .. hmmmm.

Badabing
Bats and Cap for the tie.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
so this has less to do with what the characters are capable of and more to do with who we like .. hmmmm.

I don't think it's that; it's just that for most of the part, Logan doesn't really use his skill set. We all know he has it, he just doesn't use it. For almost every panel of Logan using actual martial arts, you have three to five times as many of him just clawing and hacking away. It's hard to assume a character will use a skill/power/ability that they don't rely on very often. That's just my opinion on the matter, anyway.

Metalmanx
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
http://s233.photobucket.com/albums/ee113/wolverinerespectthread/?action=view&current=WMD_04_Oroboros_DCP_016.jpg



:P yeah logan can see sense pressure points

Ehh.... no. That scan does not prove Logan can see or sense weak spots.

And if anything, it just proves that his martial arts experience allowed him to find that opening and exploit it, NOT that he has this supernatural ability to sense weak spots, ala Karnak.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Metalmanx
Ehh.... no. That scan does not prove Logan can see or sense weak spots.

And if anything, it just proves that his martial arts experience allowed him to find that opening and exploit it, NOT that he has this supernatural ability to sense weak spots, ala Karnak.



i only showed him using the attack but if you want you can check the respect thread where he is being trained to see and sense the weak spots ala karnak style.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I don't think it's that; it's just that for most of the part, Logan doesn't really use his skill set. We all know he has it, he just doesn't use it. For almost every panel of Logan using actual martial arts, you have three to five times as many of him just clawing and hacking away. It's hard to assume a character will use a skill/power/ability that they don't rely on very often. That's just my opinion on the matter, anyway.

On panel it looks like "ROOOOARRRR!!!", but actually it was stated that he does use his skill.

gogogadgetgo
Originally posted by Darth_noodle
*sigh* -_________________- *SLaps self on the face*
Ok Ok....Wolvie does not have Adamantium.
Forget all the details, just Who is the most skilled martial artist.

so,were talking bone claw wolverine without hf and claws? h2h? well, removing the extra weight wolverine would be much faster and stronger than he is with the adamantium skeleton.

wolverine takes this.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
so,were talking bone claw wolverine without hf and claws? h2h? well, removing the extra weight wolverine would be much faster and stronger than he is with the adamantium skeleton.

wolverine takes this.

His HF hones him to superhuman levels. Those by-products wouldn't fade away that fast.

So yes, he would be faster.

He wouldn't be stronger, though. The presence of the adamantium negates the natural structural limits of his bones.

Still, his bones are a lot tougher than those of your average Joe. They're on par with his claws.

steverules_2
Wolverine

Dudes one of the best h2h heroes in the Marvel universe, he's spent years and years training, sure batman and cap have both got some good experience and could all these guys could give each other a run for their money the the h2h department but I see wolverine taking this one

gogogadgetgo
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
His HF hones him to superhuman levels. Those by-products wouldn't fade away that fast.

So yes, he would be faster.

He wouldn't be stronger, though. The presence of the adamantium negates the natural structural limits of his bones.

Still, his bones are a lot tougher than those of your average Joe. They're on par with his claws.

meh,still wolverine.

Mindset
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i only showed him using the attack but if you want you can check the respect thread where he is being trained to see and sense the weak spots ala karnak style. Post them if they exist.

StiltmanFTW
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7491/wmd04oroborosdcp014.th.jpg http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/372/wmd04oroborosdcp016.th.jpg

Uriel005
Does Captain America still have his super soldier formula because if he does he also has accelerated healing not as advanced as Wolverine but still beyond human healing and the formula makes him as physically perfect as it is possible for a human to be. Batman loses by simple matters of experience. Wolverine has been fighting since the 1800's the Captain has been fighting since WWI. Batman just cant compete without massive amounts of gadgets.
If you are going to make them all = have no upgrades beyond pure fighting skill I have to give it to Wolverine. He has the experience as does the Captain but he is also a natural born killer and the Captain isn't Wolverine has the killer instinct that will give him the edge in the fight and if you remove his regeneration right before the fight he will still be at the peak of human limitations that the healing brings him to. Wolverine ranks first Captain 2nd and Batman needs a few decades as well as a bunch of armor to catch up

Juk3n
Originally posted by Uriel005
Does Captain America still have his super soldier formula because if he does he also has accelerated healing not as advanced as Wolverine but still beyond human healing and the formula makes him as physically perfect as it is possible for a human to be. Batman loses by simple matters of experience. Wolverine has been fighting since the 1800's the Captain has been fighting since WWI. Batman just cant compete without massive amounts of gadgets.
If you are going to make them all = have no upgrades beyond pure fighting skill I have to give it to Wolverine. He has the experience as does the Captain but he is also a natural born killer and the Captain isn't Wolverine has the killer instinct that will give him the edge in the fight and if you remove his regeneration right before the fight he will still be at the peak of human limitations that the healing brings him to. Wolverine ranks first Captain 2nd and Batman needs a few decades as well as a bunch of armor to catch up

Experience can only get you so far, how many times someone has thrown a punch at you in your life IS NOT pure basis for whether you win a fight. In a PURE Martial Arts sense, baring in mind Wolverines Age/experience, what martial artist has Wolverine held his own against (discarding all the ones where his healing factor/claws/senses/adamantium came into play in a tide turning way) that Batman couldn't? What does wolverine Know about martial arts that Batman doesnt know? The way you were talking about experience you make it seem like the more fights you've had the better fighter you are. After a certain number that logic goes right out the window.

Let me put it another way. If they all had the same body to work with... picking a winner would come down to whose shorts you liked better.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Juk3n
Experience can only get you so far, how many times someone has thrown a punch at you in your life IS NOT pure basis for whether you win a fight. In a PURE Martial Arts sense, baring in mind Wolverines Age/experience, what martial artist has Wolverine held his own against (discarding all the ones where his healing factor/claws/senses/adamantium came into play in a tide turning way) that Batman couldn't? What does wolverine Know about martial arts that Batman doesnt know? The way you were talking about experience you make it seem like the more fights you've had the better fighter you are. After a certain number that logic goes right out the window.

Let me put it another way. If they all had the same body to work with... picking a winner would come down to whose shorts you liked better.

thumb up

Mindset
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7491/wmd04oroborosdcp014.th.jpg http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/372/wmd04oroborosdcp016.th.jpg That was post on the first page.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Uriel005
(...) and if you remove his regeneration right before the fight he will still be at the peak of human limitations that the healing brings him to.

Actually he's quite above human limitations.

Originally posted by Juk3n
In a PURE Martial Arts sense, baring in mind Wolverines Age/experience, what martial artist has Wolverine held his own against (discarding all the ones where his healing factor/claws/senses/adamantium came into play in a tide turning way) that Batman couldn't?

Shang-Chi. Logan didn't use the claws till the very end.

"Marvel's Bane" - Crossbones. He one-shotted him. I don't think Batman could do that (w/o batkick).

Originally posted by Mindset
That was post on the first page.

No, this one wasn't.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7491/wmd04oroborosdcp014.jpg

Enyalus
That's a very cool image, Stilt.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
One thing that always strikes me odd, is that while Logan has apparently all of this skill and mastered arts of hand to hand combat, he rarely utilizes it. Rather he just either beserkers or just claws and slashes. I know he can use the skill, it just seems like he doesn't.

I think Cap would be the favorite due to his physical superiority. Batman would be next in line because of his skill set, with Logan coming in third. if jinzin, battlehammer, or srankmissingnin see this, prepare for a scan/paragraph blitzkrieg proving otherwise.

in short, logan has tons of "non-savage" skill feats, one, if not the main reason he went to japan was to rid himself of his inner rage.

Uriel005
Ok I forget the issue it is in but Wolverine is far beyond brute force. In the danger room Cable actually scanned his mental and physical output and compared it to an olympic athlete performing a gold medal sweep routine while simultaneously beating 4 chess supercomputers at the same time. Go to the link and read Logans abilities http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Wolverine_(James_%22Logan%22_Howlett) now compare that to Captain America http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_America_(Steven_Rogers) and finally batman http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Earth-One)#Powers_and_Abilities

Batman is in good shape for a man of his stature. Wolverine and Captain America are at the pinacle of human strength speed and agility for their size.

Also Experience does count numb nuts it is a huge deciding factor in any fight. Just because Batman knows the techniques and styles he simply has not had the time that Wolverine and Captain America have had to ingrain it so thoroughly as to move beyond the need for conscious thought in order to block or attack.

Wolverine and Captain America without any modifications I'd have to say are nearly equal but Wolverine is willing to do whatever it takes to win and will not have a care in the world Captain America will hesitate to be as brutal as Wolverine in a fight do to his personal ethics in a fight. Not to say Wolverine lacks a code of honor but he is a natural born killer and it is that instinct and willlingness that will win him the fight.

manx422
Batman BATKICKS them

Juk3n
Originally posted by Uriel005
Go to the link and read Logans abilities http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Wolverine_(James_%22Logan%22_Howlett) now compare that to Captain America http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_America_(Steven_Rogers) and finally batman http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Bruce_Wayne_(Earth-One)#Powers_and_Abilities

First of all, LOL. at wiki being your reference, and second..




Read more Batman, numb nuts. Where was wolverines experience when Elektra Handed him his ass, has she been going as long as him? I didnt say experince was nothing, i said that after a while, its value diminishes. Mike Tyson was 20 and world champ..he wasn't the most experienced fighter in the circuit was he? Some fighters had 5,6,7 years on him, they were still in there prime in theri mid 20's and he beat them , why? Certainly not experience pal.

And lol Batman not being able to take Crossbones. Based on Feats is that really viable?

Warlord
Cap

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Uriel005
Ok I forget the issue it is in but Wolverine is far beyond brute force. In the danger room Cable actually scanned his mental and physical output and compared it to an olympic athlete performing a gold medal sweep routine while simultaneously beating 4 chess supercomputers at the same time.

Wolverine v2 #51.

That was Forge, not Cable.

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/7924/wolverinen51p08.th.jpg

Originally posted by Juk3n

Batman not being able to take Crossbones. Based on Feats is that really viable?

Where did I say that? confused I said that he wouldn't be able to one-shot him.

Sin I AM
One-shotting Crossbones is not that great of a feat

StiltmanFTW
It is when you consider that Steve and Red Skull failed to do so.

Sin I AM
But Bucky did...seems like pis to me

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Sin I AM
But Bucky did...seems like pis to me

What issue? And did he use his bionic arm?

Sin I AM
hmmm, im wrong...he shot him, 1st tme bucky put on Caps uniform..i just looked it up, but Bucky did handle himself wel though, I just dont consider Crossbones that great. His fights with Cap non withstanding

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


"Marvel's Bane" - Crossbones. He one-shotted him. I don't think Batman could do that (w/o batkick).

He wasnt trying to fight back.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He wasnt trying to fight back.

He COULDN'T fight back 'cause he was at clawpoint... and he attacked Logan first...

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
He COULDN'T fight back 'cause he was at clawpoint... and he attacked Logan first...

I know he did. Crossbones wasnt trying to fight when he blasted his gun at Wolverine it was like a last ditch effort how the hell is he going to beat Wolverine and DD and then escape it was a hopeless situation.

iceman24567
Yeah Bane is way stronger and faster than Crossbones.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I know he did. Crossbones wasnt trying to fight when he blasted his gun at Wolverine it was like a last ditch effort how the hell is he going to beat Wolverine and DD and then escape it was a hopeless situation.

Whatever. He fired a gun and then found himself at clawpoint. I can't see him avoiding that. Anyway, my point was that it took a single punch from Wolverine to knock him out.

Originally posted by iceman24567
Yeah Bane is way stronger and faster than Crossbones.

Even without Venom?

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Whatever. He fired a gun and then found himself at clawpoint. I can't see him avoiding that. Anyway, my point was that it took a single punch from Wolverine to knock him out.



and that could well happen if you had no intention of dodging the attack or putting up a fight. Dont know why you're whatevering me for.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and that could well happen if you had no intention of dodging the attack or putting up a fight. Dont know why you're whatevering me for.

Just because he didn't want to force his way out of the prison doesn't mean he wanted to get manhandled like that. Especially with DD coming to his defense erm He got pinned to the wall, there was no room for dodging. And adrenaline was most definitely still pumping through his veins, so the feat remains impressive.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Just because he didn't want to force his way out of the prison doesn't mean he wanted to get manhandled like that. Especially with DD coming to his defense erm He got pinned to the wall, there was no room for dodging. And adrenaline was most definitely still pumping through his veins, so the feat remains impressive. I dont think he cared wether he got manhandled or not. Firing his gun like that is not the sign of a guy who gives a ****. Yeah Wolverine would have still won but not that easy if Cossbones was trying to make an effort.

Wild Shadow
in a one punch contest logan would KO bats maybe not cap but probably.

shokosugi
Cap > Bat > Wolvie

Wild Shadow
cap is the crappiest skilled out martial artist of the bunch what is his form of fighting? judo and mix style of his own design that is basic.

Silent Master
People need to stop getting their info from handbooks.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
cap is the crappiest skilled out martial artist of the bunch what is his form of fighting? judo and mix style of his own design that is basic.
Cap knows a lot more than just Judo...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/26/51111219_e11f72dd24_o.jpg

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Silent Master
People need to stop getting their info from handbooks.


yeah seriously but where did cap train to be a level seven fighter?


BP and IF have commented on his skills being basic. BP stated the SSS is what makes him a competent fighter.

Mindset
BP thinks he can beat Doom.

What he thinks and what is reality is not the same.

Silent Master
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
yeah seriously but where did cap train to be a level seven fighter?


BP and IF have commented on his skills being basic. BP stated the SSS is what makes him a competent fighter.

IF fought Cap for all of a few seconds before making that comment, plus BP has also said that Cap adapts to everything he(BP) tried. IIRC it was during their fight in COCII

Plus Kang has said.

Avengers#53(468)

Wild Shadow
adapting in the middle of a fight is great but it is not the same as knowing and being skilled martial knowledge.


cap was tutored in variety of fighting styles but he didnt master them.
its not the same type of training that bats or wolverine under went for their martial knowledge.

Silent Master
IYO, however the comics disagree with you.

grimify
Both of them shit on Wolverine. And Batman wins.

d3str0ya10
If wolverine fight like how hes been fighting in all the wolverine movies when he just goes berserk no technique at all. They both easily put the whoop down on old james howlett.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by grimify
Both of them shit on Wolverine. And Batman wins.

thumb up

d3str0ya10
If wolverine fight like how hes been fighting in all the wolverine movies when he just goes berserk no technique at all. They both easily put the whoop down on old james howlett.

jinzin
Originally posted by grimify
Both of them shit on Wolverine. And Batman wins.

Spoken like a true goofball. Wolverine gave Cap a workout before he even had enhancements, ogun training, or even wanted to fight the guy.... You think for one moment that an argument couldn't be made to demonstrate that Wolverine's a better fighter? Seriously...


Originally posted by d3str0ya10
If wolverine fight like how hes been fighting in all the wolverine movies when he just goes berserk no technique at all. They both easily put the whoop down on old james howlett.

What the f**k?



doh


How many time do we have to keep explaining to you how the movies don't relflect whatsoever character performances in comics? Seriously. How many times?

d3str0ya10
i was just saying if he does man. but if he fights like in the comic books hes got a chance i was just saying "IF" he did. chill

Bentley
Cap and Wolverine are friends so they tag team the idiot in the Batman suit who gets stomped. Half of the time, Wolverine cheap shots Cap during this process and gets beaten by Batman.

So well... About split between Bats and Cap shifty

jinzin
Originally posted by d3str0ya10
i was just saying if he does man. but if he fights like in the comic books hes got a chance i was just saying "IF" he did. chill

Then what does it matter?

Oh and you immediately followed up your hypothetical with a blunt statement: "they both put the woop on old James".

d3str0ya10
Yeah if he fights like in the movie for some random reason. Why don't you re-read it or go improve your comprehension.

jinzin
Originally posted by d3str0ya10
Yeah if he fights like in the movie for some random reason. Why don't you re-read it or go improve your comprehension.

no expression


Originally posted by d3str0ya10
If wolverine fight like how hes been fighting in all the wolverine movies when he just goes berserk no technique at all. They both easily put the whoop down on old james howlett.

I need work on my comprehension?

"If wolverine fight like how hes been fighting in all the wolverine movies when he just goes berserk no technique at all."

-This is in incomplete thought to start off with. You missed capitalizing Wolverine's name twice in one sitting.
-"If wolverine fight" needs to be changed to If Wolverine fights.
-"hes been fighting"... needs to be changed to he's been fighting.

And once again you failed to capitalize his name at the end of your statement that they put the whoop down on James Howlett....


And, when you ask me why don't I re-read it or improve my comprehension you need to add in a question mark...


Way to own yourself.

Enyalus
confused Comprehension doesn't have a lot to do with grammar, to be honest...

Charmander
lol

jinzin

Enyalus
You're going to tell me you were unable to understand Destroya's sentence because he didn't capitalize proper nouns and failed to use apostrophes when he contracted words like 'hes', Jinzin?

Really?



Comprehension doesn't have a lot to do with grammar...in this instance. How's that?

Naija boy
lol

jinzin
Originally posted by Enyalus
You're going to tell me you were unable to understand Destroya's sentence because he didn't capitalize proper nouns and failed to use apostrophes when he contracted words like 'hes', Jinzin?

Really?



Comprehension doesn't have a lot to do with grammar...in this instance. How's that?

What the f**k?

No... because, I never... said thatconfused... But that's certainly a nice strawman for you to bring into the debate.

Grammar does have to do with comprehension, and if someone is going to attack my comprehension the least they can do is write out complete thoughts; or did that irony fly right over your head?

Enyalus
Originally posted by jinzin
What the f**k?

No... because, I never... said thatconfused... But that's certainly a nice strawman for you to bring into the debate.

Grammar does have to do with comprehension, and if someone is going to attack my comprehension the least they can do is write out complete thoughts; or did that irony fly right over your head?
Destroya attacked your ability to understand what he was saying (even though you clearly did.) You countered by...pointing out his grammatical errors after asking the rhetorical question: 'I need work on my comprehension?'

To me, the two have nothing to do with each other in this case, as you clearly grasped what he was saying anyway, so his poor grammar had nothing to do with you seemingly not being able to 'comprehend' what he said (although, like I said, obviously you did.)

Whatever.



Who do you have in this fight?

Battlehammer
Movie wolverine is an alternate reality, with man differences. One noteable differences is the fact movie wolverine is around 6 feet tall. another differences is that movie wolverine does not have nearly the training or MA skill as 616 wolverine. there are to many differences to name.

also beserker 616 wolverine is the last thing either batman or capt want

jinzin
Originally posted by Enyalus
Destroya attacked your ability to understand what he was saying (even though you clearly did.) You countered by...pointing out his grammatical errors after asking the rhetorical question: 'I need work on my comprehension?'

To me, the two have nothing to do with each other in this case, as you clearly grasped what he was saying anyway, so his poor grammar had nothing to do with you seemingly not being able to 'comprehend' what he said (although, like I said, obviously you did.)

I'm full well aware of the events as they took place.. My attack of his horrid grammar and incomplete thoughts is obviously meant to point out just how bad his comprehension is, semantics aside.


For instance, I grasp that he's using movie Wolverine in a hypothetical.
I grasp that this isn't the first time he's defected to movie incarnations.
And I grasp that it's not the first time he's had to be told how irrelivent that such defections are to the thread... If his retort to that is against my comprehension?
lol.... What else can I say? He brought the noise.


Originally posted by Enyalus
Who do you have in this fight? I think it comes down to Wolverine and Cap.. and it could go either way, maybe like a 55% edge to Cap based soley on reach.

grimify
Originally posted by jinzin
Spoken like a true goofball. Wolverine gave Cap a workout before he even had enhancements, ogun training, or even wanted to fight the guy.... You think for one moment that an argument couldn't be made to demonstrate that Wolverine's a better fighter? Seriously...


Blah Blah Blah


They shit on Wolverine.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by grimify
Blah Blah Blah


They shit on Wolverine.

nice debating skill champ

Wild Shadow
everyones defense is that wolverine will ignore all his fighting skills and abilities and in character get on all fours and attack like a dog confused

Battlehammer
what I find funny is that people assume wolverine going beserker helps capt and batman

grimify
Originally posted by Battlehammer
nice debating skill champ

Thanks. I'm glad you agree with me.

Master Court
Wolverine's over a century old. He's been trained by SHIELD, military, Samurai, and some others, he's got indestructable bones, he's immune to disease, fatigue, and drugs, he's fought in several wars, he's beat numerous super humans, almost regularly tangles with the Hulk.

If they were all locked in a cage, it goes CAP, WOLVERINE, BATMAN.

Batman is the only one who's strictly non-metahuman. Cap is TRUE peak, Wolverine is super-human but batshit, Batman's awesome but certain factors take this out of his reach. If it was on the streets that'd be one thing, but purely H2H assuming some kind of controlled environment; then he's the weakest link.

I'd say Cap eventually knocks Logan out, then eventually deals with Batman.

Cap wins. It's been proven before that he beats Logan. He'd do it again. And then he'd beat Bats.

Mindset
Wolverine isn't immune to fatigue.

jinzin
Originally posted by Master Court
Cap wins. It's been proven before that he beats Logan. He'd do it again. And then he'd beat Bats.

confused


When.... no expression

Mindset
Originally posted by jinzin
confused


When.... no expression Same time Wolverine showed his immunity to fatigue, I guess.

jinzin
Originally posted by Mindset
Same time Wolverine showed his immunity to fatigue, I guess.
laughing out loud

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Darth_noodle
Batman with no gadgets, Captain America with no shield, and Logan with no Claws or healing factor. He still gets his Adamatium bones. This is pure H2H skill. Who is the better martial artist?


Under these circumstances I give it too Cap.

Juk3n
This is based on pure skill, so if we set this in a Dojo, and they take turns 1v1 each other, i say it can honestly go either way. Feats say they have comparable reaction times and hand speeds, OPE says they are all masters in their own right. As for actual displays of MARTIAL skill, Wolverine and Bats just pip Cap, in a Kumute setting like this id say possibly an even split. I mean these are 3 of the top 10 most written characters, so i guess what im saying is..Find me a Combat/H2H/Martial Arts/Reaction Speed/CQC feat of one of these guys that the OTHER two couldn't match.

A h2h fight to the death would be a different tale. But it's pure skill so i pictured it in a Dojo.

Wild Shadow
would a bullet catch count?

steverules_2
I seem to remember wolverine and cap fighting and cap crushed something wolvie's wrists to stop him getting out his claws..anyways I seem to remember wolverine beating cap...so to speak. But he had adamantium and a healing factor in that fight unlike this one so things could go differently.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
would a bullet catch count?

You could use it..but then you'd have to tell me why the guy who caught the bullet gets hit in the face so much by punches that are moving WAAAY below bullet speed.

All 3 of these guys have their own Super High-end 1 off feats, obviously they have there super duper - low-end 1 off slumps, i think that if we used the happy medium, there feats would be very comparable.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Juk3n
You could use it..but then you'd have to tell me why the guy who caught the bullet gets hit in the face so much by punches that are moving WAAAY below bullet speed.

All 3 of these guys have their own Super High-end 1 off feats, obviously they have there super duper - low-end 1 off slumps, i think that if we used the happy medium, there feats would be very comparable.


I think the bullet catch wasn't even in continuity IIRC it was a cross over or something. I think in stats in strength and speed Logan and Cap are pretty darn close. IMO in skill Cap is a bit better then Logan and Batman is a bit better then Cap. But all three are so skilled it would be hard to tell.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Daredevil1
I think the bullet catch wasn't even in continuity IIRC it was a cross over or something. I think in stats in strength and speed Logan and Cap are pretty darn close. IMO in skill Cap is a bit better then Logan and Batman is a bit better then Cap. But all three are so skilled it would be hard to tell.
capt and batman arnt more skilled then wolverine.

Enyalus
I'm fairly certain that Logan is the only one of these guys with actual, real and confirmed superhuman reaction speeds.

The average human's reaction time is about 215 milliseconds (ms). Peak human, as in the 99.9th percentile, got around 120 ms. Logan was clocked at 38 ms just after his adamantium upgrade from Weapon X. Huge difference. And obviously has improved his physical stats since that time period.

This takes place during Weapon X: First Class #2. So, while I think that all three are pretty comparable in terms of skill...I'd say Logan's superhuman speed gives him enough edge for the majority win here.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm fairly certain that Logan is the only one of these guys with actual, real and confirmed superhuman reaction speeds.

The average human's reaction time is about 215 milliseconds (ms). Peak human, as in the 99.9th percentile, got around 120 ms. Logan was clocked at 38 ms just after his adamantium upgrade from Weapon X. Huge difference. And obviously has improved his physical stats since that time period.

This takes place during Weapon X: First Class #2. So, while I think that all three are pretty comparable in terms of skill...I'd say Logan's superhuman speed gives him enough edge for the majority win here.

@ the 38 ms feat, this would be an example of an extreme high-end reaction time feat, it's not depicted as the norm. Im not doubting he's got superhuman reactions, no doubt he has, but in terms of having that reaction in a h2h fight (which is clearly not present in any fight he's ever had with anyone who has ever struck him YET not been as fast as 38ms) these guys are comparable. They've all dodged bullets/lazah fya/punches/kicks/heat vision/sniper shots, and yet been hit by big lumbering bohemoths like the tree trunk arm of Hulk for example.

Is say this all comes down to personal pref' trying to prove - feat wise - one above another isn't likely.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Juk3n
but in terms of having that reaction in a h2h fight (which is clearly not present in any fight he's ever had with anyone who has ever struck him YET not been as fast as 38ms)

Except it was in a H2H fight where he was clocked like that. And yes, all of them have those bullet dodging and other insane feats. But this was a hard example with actual numbers, indicating that Wolverine operates at a superhuman level of reaction speeds, when he wants to. If he wanted to in this fight, I see no reason why he would not. And Batman and Cap cannot match that, because they're peak human. He's simply physically above them by a small margin. Because the skill is probably a toss up, I think that would give Logan a serious advantage.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Enyalus
Except it was in a H2H fight where he was clocked like that. And yes, all of them have those bullet dodging and other insane feats. But this was a hard example with actual numbers, indicating that Wolverine operates at a superhuman level of reaction speeds, when he wants to. If he wanted to in this fight, I see no reason why he would not. And Batman and Cap cannot match that, because they're peak human. He's simply physically above them by a small margin. Because the skill is probably a toss up, I think that would give Logan a serious advantage.

Thing is, it's 1 feat of 38ms, in 2 decades of non-38ms feats. I mean sure you CAN use it, but then is there anyway to account for him ever being hit? You said he could use it when he wants to..well then you're implying he would rather get hit, then use it becauae he does get hit, all the time.

And really, there's a word for a miraculous 1 time event, never replicated never duplicated in a given time frame - like say - an entire career. Luck.

Wild Shadow
actually wolverine has stated numerous times that he does prefer to takes hits in most situations when fighting..

he has also shown the ability not to take hits in over whelming odds when his HF is on the fritz

Enyalus
Originally posted by Juk3n
Thing is, it's 1 feat of 38ms, in 2 decades of non-38ms feats. I mean sure you CAN use it, but then is there anyway to account for him ever being hit? You said he could use it when he wants to..well then you're implying he would rather get hit, then use it becauae he does get hit, all the time.

And really, there's a word for a miraculous 1 time event, never replicated never duplicated in a given time frame - like say - an entire career. Luck.
...Not really. I mean, Wolverine's invaded The Hand's headquarters and taken on hundreds of ninjas simultaneously without them landing a blow on him. That would be a ridiculous high feat. I know Batman has feats like those too (although I don't think to that extent.) The point was that that was what he was clocked at. As in, that's what he can do...not what he always does. But its a definite number, y'know? Not ambiguous. If he had to rely on his martial arts only as he does here, I see no reason for him to not push himself to those same levels of speed. Which is beyond anyone here, as stated before.

horrorwolf
Captain America wins.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Juk3n
Thing is, it's 1 feat of 38ms, in 2 decades of non-38ms feats. I mean sure you CAN use it, but then is there anyway to account for him ever being hit? You said he could use it when he wants to..well then you're implying he would rather get hit, then use it becauae he does get hit, all the time.

And really, there's a word for a miraculous 1 time event, never replicated never duplicated in a given time frame - like say - an entire career. Luck.
Actaully He stated before he lets him, self get hit. He has a healing factor he has no reason to dodge. So by you assume him getting hit means he reaction time is not that fast is simply wrong.


also he has several other feats and statements to validate that event.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actaully He stated before he lets him, self get hit. He has a healing factor he has no reason to dodge. So by you assume him getting hit means he reaction time is not that fast is simply wrong.


also he has several other feats and statements to validate that event.

No doubt, but then when people like Elektra "toy with him" makes me think otherwise. And as for letting himself get hit, sure i don't doubt that, afterall, he has an insane healing factor, but he has also let himself get hit by people who could KO him/incapacitate/badly damage him, in life or death fights which if we go by the 38ms standard is either PIS or bad writing, like his various ones with Sabretooth. Where was his 38ms feat then?

Look im straying from the point, in his various fights with other well trained/master/accomplished/enhanced human fighters, he rarely demonstrates the ability to completely dominate them skill/ma ability/speed/reaction wise and so on. I'm not talking about well trained /enhanced cannon fodder like the hand, im talking about NAMED top tiers, like Elektra/Cap/Tooth/Blade/DP/Cable etc. He may HAVE higher stats, but HAVING the ability to do somthing and consistantly DOING it is 2 different things. But where the healing factor helped him in those scenerios , it won't here. Im not out to boil anyones piss, and im not a wolverine hater by any means but, like all the combatants here, they each have there high and low feats, and i still say at the happy median range they are way comparable for there to be a clear cut winner.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by Enyalus
...Not really. I mean, Wolverine's invaded The Hand's headquarters and taken on hundreds of ninjas simultaneously without them landing a blow on him.

At one point at least he used one of them as a shield and used a sentinel. Hes been hit by fewer hand ninjas before anyway.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Juk3n
No doubt, but then when people like Elektra "toy with him" makes me think otherwise. And as for letting himself get hit, sure i don't doubt that, afterall, he has an insane healing factor, but he has also let himself get hit by people who could KO him/incapacitate/badly damage him, in life or death fights which if we go by the 38ms standard is either PIS or bad writing, like his various ones with Sabretooth. Where was his 38ms feat then?

Look im straying from the point, in his various fights with other well trained/master/accomplished/enhanced human fighters, he rarely demonstrates the ability to completely dominate them skill/ma ability/speed/reaction wise and so on. I'm not talking about well trained /enhanced cannon fodder like the hand, im talking about NAMED top tiers, like Elektra/Cap/Tooth/Blade/DP/Cable etc. He may HAVE higher stats, but HAVING the ability to do somthing and consistantly DOING it is 2 different things. But where the healing factor helped him in those scenerios , it won't here. Im not out to boil anyones piss, and im not a wolverine hater by any means but, like all the combatants here, they each have there high and low feats, and i still say at the happy median range they are way comparable for there to be a clear cut winner.


if you simply use their mid range feats that can be compared to ea of the characters of course it looks even, but thats not a fair assessment for any of the characters. saying they are evenly match because u found feats that can be compared to all three is ludacris, with that type of logic you can find high low meta humans and say they are evenly equal to street lvler because you decided to use only feats that the other characters have performed that matches the others. the simple truth is you take each character at their best regardless if they rarely show the skill every few yrs for whatever reason.you dont pick and choose and say because he rarely does it, it doesnt count. even though if he did use his full skills he would win, saying its not part of his CIS just sounds like downgrading the character..

even in comic tournaments logan has taken such matters very seriously and operated at superhuman lvls with his enemies in speed, indurance reflex agility but somehow it doesnt count? because he doesnt perform at his peak with random every day fodder in his story telling.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Wild Shadow

even in comic tournaments logan has taken such matters very seriously and operated at superhuman lvls with his enemies in speed, indurance reflex agility but somehow it doesnt count? because he doesnt perform at his peak with random every day fodder in his story telling.

Im just saying i tend to disregard the feats that are not portrayed as the norm. I know he's done them, thats fine, but Ironfist has derailed and exploded a train with a blow, does he hit every opponent with that kind of force? Is it a viable feat to use in a h2h scenerio like this thread presents? if it was there would never be any need for another Ironfist thread, because "he wud just hit dem wit a train exploding strke ftw!!!" would be everywhere.

Likewise with Logans high-end feats, sure he has them , they are documented, but then why get toyed with by Elektra? Why not completley dominate Sabretooth? Why risk a shot in the ear or up the nose if he can react in 38 ms? Why? Because it's not the NORM for him to react like that.

And the way he is depicted from the MAJORITY of his MA encounters (with other top tiers like Elektra/Cable) tells me personally, that he would not be a clear cut winner in this thread.

Not to mention this thread does say PURE H2H SKILL. i think the OP would agree that for the sake of argument we put all the combatants in 3 equal bodies. which is also why i say there is no clear cut king, and why the winner would come down to your favourite person.

Wild Shadow
okay this is about hand movement right? so if you check his respect thread logan by the way you see multiple scans of logan catching knives, blocking rocket darts while waving a clawed hand back in fourth anh hitting each individual one, doing multiple hand movement in front of him and slicing and blocking a small army of ppl shooting arrows at him. by the by his jacket was torn by the time it was done i presume by the speed he was displaying oh also he has blocked and sliced multiple fledgets from archangels wings while in mid flight. during the time he was of the avengers logan was standing still and had after images of his hands slicing all around him and killling a group of ninjas that was trying to attack him, also in that scan it was logan who was dealing with the most ninjas at once alone with the least amount of effort/problem while everyone else was having a harder time with just a couple or few opponents like spidey and spiderwomen...also logan has cut gun barrels multiple times without him being scene or his hands appearing to move. :P

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Juk3n
@ the 38 ms feat, this would be an example of an extreme high-end reaction time feat, it's not depicted as the norm. Im not doubting he's got superhuman reactions, no doubt he has, but in terms of having that reaction in a h2h fight (which is clearly not present in any fight he's ever had with anyone who has ever struck him YET not been as fast as 38ms) these guys are comparable. They've all dodged bullets/lazah fya/punches/kicks/heat vision/sniper shots, and yet been hit by big lumbering bohemoths like the tree trunk arm of Hulk for example.

Is say this all comes down to personal pref' trying to prove - feat wise - one above another isn't likely.

Yup Cap can run a mile a minute. If Logan was that fast he would have trouble slashing constantly guys like Ironfist and Daredevil but he does. Def a good high end feat for Logan.

Juk3n
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
okay this is about hand movement right? so if you check his respect thread logan by the way you see multiple scans of logan catching knives, blocking rocket darts while waving a clawed hand back in fourth anh hitting each individual one, doing multiple hand movement in front of him and slicing and blocking a small army of ppl shooting arrows at him. by the by his jacket was torn by the time it was done i presume by the speed he was displaying oh also he has blocked and sliced multiple fledgets from archangels wings while in mid flight. during the time he was of the avengers logan was standing still and had after images of his hands slicing all around him and killling a group of ninjas that was trying to attack him, also in that scan it was logan who was dealing with the most ninjas at once alone with the least amount of effort/problem while everyone else was having a harder time with just a couple or few opponents like spidey and spiderwomen...also logan has cut gun barrels multiple times without him being scene or his hands appearing to move. :P

And do you know how many confrontations Batman has had where he's been to quick to defend against, where the enemy "never saw him coming" deflecting bullets? Come on these are 3 of comic books top action figures, Bats has also deflected gunfire/dodged/evaded. Cap has comparable feats also.. im talking about Logan giving the same displays against another TOP tier martial artist. Not a load of fodder ninjas.

Wild Shadow
okay fine.. he easily outfought shang chi lickity split..he has used extreme hand movements against ladydeathstrike in their down and dirty slash and gash battles, she is confirmed with enhanced speed reflex that are suppose to be above wolvie due to all her multiple upgrades specifically to beat logan.

when logan has stayed calmed he has managed to parry block and kick sabe who also has enhanced reflex speed confirmed by psylocke when she witnessed one of their fights and they were blurs and she couldnt get a mental lock on them..

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
okay fine.. he easily outfought shang chi lickity split

That's in one of there encounters. In the other Shang was holding Logan's leg off that building or whatever it was and had the advantage.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Daredevil1
That's in one of there encounters. In the other Shang was holding Logan's leg off that building or whatever it was and had the advantage.

sigh.........yes i know.

but logan didnt go their to fight him but get his focus back... you really think that shang chi is a remote threat to logan in h2h combat? besides logan lost his balance no biggy..

jinzin
Originally posted by Juk3n
I'm not talking about well trained /enhanced cannon fodder like the hand, im talking about NAMED top tiers, like Elektra/Cap/Tooth/Blade/DP/Cable etc. He may HAVE higher stats, but HAVING the ability to do somthing and consistantly DOING it is 2 different things.

And who says him not doing this on a constant basis comes from lack of ability?

The fact is, when Wolverine's forced into using his skill he does so beyond a state of admirably.

I fail to see what you think Elektra brings to this thread as she's grossly superhuman in all aspects including her mind.

Cap doesn't support any argument as each time Wolverine has faced Cap he's either been 1. Holding back or 2. Comprimised on some level.

Sabretooth is extremely skilled and has played the part of a fool for years just to trick everyone around him... beyond that he's FAR more superhuman than anyone else on that list in terms of sheer physicality, beyond that he's able to manipulate Wolverine's emotions through his use of mindgames.. It's one of the points that was made when Logan went to deal with Creed level headed outfought him and tossed his ass off a cliff.

DP is regularly disarmed or put to a disadvantage by Wolverine in h2h combat.

And Cable has been stated to have multiple files on Wolverine from which to study and that he knows Wolverine's movements so well he can blah blah blah.. you get the point...


Now when it comes to skilled and namer opponents:

Wolverine's had mass impressive performances against the likes of Lazaer, Himself, Shingen, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Psylocke, Ogun, Punisher, Shatterstar, Stick, Silver Samurai, Winter Soldier, Gambit, Kane, Deathstrike, X-23, Nightcrawler, Domina and I can keep going..... It's not as if Wolverine able to outfight people with great fighting skill is anything new, and that's inclusive of people from every KMC tier.

When it comes to his speed and reaction times there should be no question that his movements are grossly superhuman as well given his in fight encounters.

Multiple fights with prime sentinals who blitzed X-men members and moved too fast Cyclops couldn't even track.
Taking down multiple werewolves who were moving too fast for Vindicator to deal with.
Blitzing a small group of X-force members before they could mount a defense.
Taking out multiple machines which had to increase size and speed to fight Logan in Snikt.
Rushing past and breaking to a head start before multiple superhumans could react in the new Weapon X book.
Putting Deathstrike in defensive fights who keeps upgrading speed for Logan.
Doing acrobatics behind Speed Demon's sprints without losing ground.
Causing Spiderman to doubt his own speed against Logan's.

And once again I could keep going....

I feel that there's a couple issues here.. the first is with Logan.. as he's always in a state of fighting his own nature, there's no telling how much of himself he holds back. The most recent issue of Origins shows Wolverine willing himself to give in to the animal making him run faster and faster as a result. It may be possible that Wovlerine simply tries to reserve himself, and as a result thinks too much.. It's something he's been accused of in combat before by other skilled fighters and coincidently his best feats of skill come from when he isn't thinking about the fight.

When it comes to his speed, it plays up or down based on who he's fighting as does anyone's in comics.. you guys act like Cap's never had problems with Crossbones or Batman's never got the drop on him by Joker. Which brings me to issue number two...

I think the thing that's bothersome here is that people recognize what character's typical performance levels entail, yet when you have a Batman thread or an Iron Fist thread, batkicks and trainwreckers get legitimately thrown into the debate and typical performance gets tossed to the forewind which makes us assess the characters from very high points in their career for the purpose of a fight. Yet, when it's Wolverine who's involved.. all the sudded we're forced to forget half of his career?

It seems a bit self serving to argue this way IMO.

Wild Shadow
you tell them mean kmc members.. smile

"you tell that mean ocean!!!!!!"

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
sigh.........yes i know.

but logan didnt go their to fight him but get his focus back... you really think that shang chi is a remote threat to logan in h2h combat? besides logan lost his balance no biggy..


Excuses excuses. The Logan that also beat Shang was in his feral state.

Yes Shang would be a threat but I give Logan the majority.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Excuses excuses. The Logan that also beat Shang was in his feral state.

Yes Shang would be a threat but I give Logan the majority.

i wasnt making any excuses i just stated why he was there and what happened besides how to you explain the rest of my argument huh?

i guess you ignore his legitimate meta reflex feats.....

being feral doesnt disgredit his feat against shang.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by jinzin


I fail to see what you think Elektra brings to this thread as she's grossly superhuman in all aspects including her mind.




She does not have superhuman strength. I don't think any big name characters(Wolverine, Daredevil) has been astounded by her physical strength.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i wasnt making any excuses i just stated why he was there and what happened besides how to you explain the rest of my argument huh?

i guess you ignore his legitimate meta reflex feats.....

being feral doesnt disgredit his feat against shang.


That feral state isn't his norm. But anyways Shang had the advantage the other time. So it doesn't change his feat your excuse is all I'm saying.

jinzin
her strengths quite debateable based on feats...
As for the Chi fight in First Class.. He went there to learn something not for a fight, but he was holding his own, Chi scored the advantage due to plot device.. Dunno if that says much against Logan tbh.

Phantom Zone
Originally posted by jinzin
And who says him not doing this on a constant basis comes from lack of ability?

The fact is, when Wolverine's forced into using his skill he does so beyond a state of admirably.

I fail to see what you think Elektra brings to this thread as she's grossly superhuman in all aspects including her mind.

Cap doesn't support any argument as each time Wolverine has faced Cap he's either been 1. Holding back or 2. Comprimised on some level.

Sabretooth is extremely skilled and has played the part of a fool for years just to trick everyone around him... beyond that he's FAR more superhuman than anyone else on that list in terms of sheer physicality, beyond that he's able to manipulate Wolverine's emotions through his use of mindgames.. It's one of the points that was made when Logan went to deal with Creed level headed outfought him and tossed his ass off a cliff.

DP is regularly disarmed or put to a disadvantage by Wolverine in h2h combat.

And Cable has been stated to have multiple files on Wolverine from which to study and that he knows Wolverine's movements so well he can blah blah blah.. you get the point...


Now when it comes to skilled and namer opponents:

Wolverine's had mass impressive performances against the likes of Lazaer, Himself, Shingen, Daredevil, Shang Chi, Psylocke, Ogun, Punisher, Shatterstar, Stick, Silver Samurai, Winter Soldier, Gambit, Kane, Deathstrike, X-23, Nightcrawler, Domina and I can keep going..... It's not as if Wolverine able to outfight people with great fighting skill is anything new, and that's inclusive of people from every KMC tier.

When it comes to his speed and reaction times there should be no question that his movements are grossly superhuman as well given his in fight encounters.

Multiple fights with prime sentinals who blitzed X-men members and moved too fast Cyclops couldn't even track.
Taking down multiple werewolves who were moving too fast for Vindicator to deal with.
Blitzing a small group of X-force members before they could mount a defense.
Taking out multiple machines which had to increase size and speed to fight Logan in Snikt.
Rushing past and breaking to a head start before multiple superhumans could react in the new Weapon X book.
Putting Deathstrike in defensive fights who keeps upgrading speed for Logan.
Doing acrobatics behind Speed Demon's sprints without losing ground.
Causing Spiderman to doubt his own speed against Logan's.

And once again I could keep going....

I feel that there's a couple issues here.. the first is with Logan.. as he's always in a state of fighting his own nature, there's no telling how much of himself he holds back. The most recent issue of Origins shows Wolverine willing himself to give in to the animal making him run faster and faster as a result. It may be possible that Wovlerine simply tries to reserve himself, and as a result thinks too much.. It's something he's been accused of in combat before by other skilled fighters and coincidently his best feats of skill come from when he isn't thinking about the fight.

When it comes to his speed, it plays up or down based on who he's fighting as does anyone's in comics.. you guys act like Cap's never had problems with Crossbones or Batman's never got the drop on him by Joker. Which brings me to issue number two...

I think the thing that's bothersome here is that people recognize what character's typical performance levels entail, yet when you have a Batman thread or an Iron Fist thread, batkicks and trainwreckers get legitimately thrown into the debate and typical performance gets tossed to the forewind which makes us assess the characters from very high points in their career for the purpose of a fight. Yet, when it's Wolverine who's involved.. all the sudded we're forced to forget half of his career?

It seems a bit self serving to argue this way IMO.

You know do you have to write a novel everytime you reply to a post. erm

Daredevil1
Originally posted by jinzin
her strengths quite debateable based on feats...
As for the Chi fight in First Class.. He went there to learn something not for a fight, but he was holding his own, Chi scored the advantage due to plot device.. Dunno if that says much against Logan tbh.

Not really debateable since she doesn't have superhuman strength. By that logic Daredevil is debateable since he actually has lifting "feats" unlike Electra. But even I know DD does not have superhuman strength. He's not even at the peak of human potential.
Your right. Logan went there to learn something doesn't change the fact that he did "fight".

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Not really debateable since she doesn't have superhuman strength. By that logic Daredevil is debateable since he actually has lifting "feats" unlike Electra. But even I know DD does not have superhuman strength. He's not even at the peak of human potential.
Your right. Logan went there to learn something doesn't change the fact that he did "fight".

he didnt lose either their was no ko, kill.. the fight was over as soon as he almost fell, the fall wouldnt have killed him and he would have bn back in the fight... besides being hit with the staff in the face should have shattered logan wouldnt have budged because he has taken hits in the face with nunchucks with no effect logan should have shattered shangs swords with a casual hand swipe like he has done before.. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Warrior18
Originally posted by jinzin
her strengths quite debateable based on feats...


I know she did appear to block and then completely push back a blow from a 10 ton amped Silver Samurai. However I personally think she may have parried or used his own strength against him or some other technique. Just a thought.

In the very same fight she was also stated to be an olympic class athlete.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a scan of Captain America flat out palming a punch from 10 ton USAgent. That too would require a similar level of strength which I'm sure nobody would actually attribute to Cap.


As it stands I say Logan for the narrow win. I personally think he is slightly more skilled than both Cap and Bruce. As well as a bit faster.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
he didnt lose either their was no ko, kill.. the fight was over as soon as he almost fell, the fall wouldnt have killed him and he would have bn back in the fight... besides being hit with the staff in the face should have shattered logan wouldnt have budged because he has taken hits in the face with nunchucks with no effect logan should have shattered shangs swords with a casual hand swipe like he has done before.. roll eyes (sarcastic)


Logan didn't lose but point is Shang had the advantage. LOL again with the excuses.

Miguelohara563
Batman wins,obviously.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Juk3n
No doubt, but then when people like Elektra "toy with him" makes me think otherwise. And as for letting himself get hit, sure i don't doubt that, afterall, he has an insane healing factor, but he has also let himself get hit by people who could KO him/incapacitate/badly damage him, in life or death fights which if we go by the 38ms standard is either PIS or bad writing, like his various ones with Sabretooth. Where was his 38ms feat then?

I freakin' cited the issue # in the post where I brought it up. stick out tongue








Jinzin, that was a great post.

jinzin
Originally posted by Warrior18
I know she did appear to block and then completely push back a blow from a 10 ton amped Silver Samurai. However I personally think she may have parried or used his own strength against him or some other technique. Just a thought.

In the very same fight she was also stated to be an olympic class athlete.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a scan of Captain America flat out palming a punch from 10 ton USAgent. That too would require a similar level of strength which I'm sure nobody would actually attribute to Cap.


As it stands I say Logan for the narrow win. I personally think he is slightly more skilled than both Cap and Bruce. As well as a bit faster.

Elektra able to parry Silver Samurai is only one of multiple reason that would give one reason to think she has superhuman strength. Also I didn't state her strength at any specific level just that she has some degree of it.

jinzin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Not really debateable since she doesn't have superhuman strength. By that logic Daredevil is debateable since he actually has lifting "feats" unlike Electra. But even I know DD does not have superhuman strength. He's not even at the peak of human potential.
Your right. Logan went there to learn something doesn't change the fact that he did "fight". I think it IS debateable that he's peak human in strength. His leg strength and some of his lifting feats are outright absurd.

jinzin
Originally posted by Enyalus
I freakin' cited the issue # in the post where I brought it up. stick out tongue

Jinzin, that was a great post.

thank you

PRAYERRUN
Originally posted by SamZED
Either Batman or Cap because Wolverine wouldn't survive having an adamantium skeleton without his hf.
In terms of MA skills I believe Logan and Cap are more experienced than Batman, but this is a very close fight. They all stand an equel chance.
I agree. While it wouldn't take Logan out entirely, I think that the bat and the captain would be concentrating more on each other. I give this to batman just because he knows how to defeat people stronger than him.(Killer Croc and Bane.)

Enyalus
Originally posted by PRAYERRUN
I give this to batman just because he knows how to defeat people stronger than him.(Killer Croc and Bane.)
...That's strange logic, when you take into account that Logan beats Sabertooth and kills Wendigos...

PRAYERRUN
with his claws and healing factor.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by jinzin
I think it IS debateable that he's peak human in strength. His leg strength and some of his lifting feats are outright absurd.


Anything can be debatable but Cap being superhuman is not. He's been dubbed the peak of human potential for a reason or even stated to be almost superhuman. His outlandish feats as outlandish as they are still what the peak of human potential can do.

Heck Cap ran about 60 mph that is superhuman by some of marvel standards I imagine but for Cap that is what the peak of human potential is capable of.

jinzin
Cap WAS superhuman..... He's grossly beyond the peak of human potential and proved himself to be constantly. He may have been described several times throughout his entire career as peak but there should be no question as to his low-level superhumanhood.

At this point you're just defecting to an argument of title vs. feats and we all know feats are what matter.

StiltmanFTW
From Cap's thread -

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Caps is above peak human. These are quotes from Ed Brubaker. Thanks go to Daredevil1 for finding them.

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/view.php?rpl=060418204829&q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either."

darthgoober
Originally posted by jinzin
Cap WAS superhuman..... He's grossly beyond the peak of human potential and proved himself to be constantly. He may have been described several times throughout his entire career as peak but there should be no question as to his low-level superhumanhood.

At this point you're just defecting to an argument of title vs. feats and we all know feats are what matter.
I always thought it was funny that readers cling to the "peak human" thing in regards to Cap when people who see the limits of his strength in comics consider him to be superstrong...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/af-02-05.jpg
http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/af-02-06.jpg

PRAYERRUN
So....I'm guessing Cap wins this one? lol

grimify
Originally posted by PRAYERRUN
So....I'm guessing Cap wins this one? lol

Nope, Batman does.

PRAYERRUN
ok so that arguement will go on till the end of time. Batman or Captain America.

grimify
Originally posted by PRAYERRUN
ok so that arguement will go on till the end of time. Batman or Captain America.

Nah, just until the Cap fans admit they're wrong. wink

PRAYERRUN
lol laughing

StiltmanFTW
Wolverine wrecks 'em both and then buys himself 25 beers.

PRAYERRUN
see the thing about logan is if he doesn't have his healing powers or his skeleton and claws, he doesn't have super strength either. You may argue that he still has the fighting ability, but he usually concentrates on battling knowing that whatever happens, he can't die. So for me, he's out.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by PRAYERRUN
see the thing about logan is if he doesn't have his healing powers or his skeleton and claws, he doesn't have super strength either. You may argue that he still has the fighting ability, but he usually concentrates on battling knowing that whatever happens, he can't die. So for me, he's out.

actually he retain his super strength.


He gone literally years with out a healing factor or knowing he had one. Hell I even say he spent longer either not having one or not knowing he had one then Batman been alive.

he given capt a blood clot in a weaken state.

He put DD in a full nelson with out taking a hit.

He beaten shang-chi with out the need for a healing factor.

He choked out bucky with out taking a hit and prior to his enhancement by weapon x ect.

Daredevil1
Originally posted by jinzin
Cap WAS superhuman..... He's grossly beyond the peak of human potential and proved himself to be constantly. He may have been described several times throughout his entire career as peak but there should be no question as to his low-level superhumanhood.

At this point you're just defecting to an argument of title vs. feats and we all know feats are what matter.


Cap with SSS = Peak of human potential

Cap with SSS and with Vipers poison=Superhuman strength until it faded. That's why when it faded he still wished he had superhuman strength. Seriously. You'd argue anything that doesn't make sense.

He is not beyond the peak of human potential, whatever he does is what the peak of human potential is jinzin. It can even be true superhuman levels but in the end he's just a pure human so anything he does represents the peak of humanity.


Heck because of the SSS the guy can live frozen on Ice forever without special medical equipment, ages slow, is immune to many diseases, can't get drunk, and has even healed from a bullet to the head in 12 minutes.

This is superhuman in most "universes" but in the marvel universe it is the peak of human potential.

Daredevil1
And Electra is clearly not superhuman in strength and neither is Daredevil who's lifting feats are better then Electra.

jinzin
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Cap with SSS = Peak of human potential laughing out loud

Oh the irony.



>>>"Caps is above peak human. These are quotes from Ed Brubaker. Thanks go to Daredevil1 for finding them.

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...pl=060330214926

"Just physical exertion. While I don't think of Cap as 'super' like Spider-man or Superman, he's clearly not Batman with a shield. He's not just like a guy who works out all the time and is trained. He's been enhanced, and I wanted to show that a bit."

"See, I never understand why everyone gets so worked up about this stuff. Cap was given the Super-Soldier Serum. The first word there is SUPER. He's not superman, but clearly, he's been shown to be much faster and stronger than a well-trained athlete, many many times. One of everyone's favorite Cap appearances seems to be DD: Born Again, where he's shown running to fast that he's a breeze."

http://www.comicboards.com/camb/vie...q=ed%20brubaker

"I see it as he's the ultimate of human potential. Not something the modern man could ever be, but like an evolutionary next-step, basically. He's not Thor or Spiderman, but he's not Batman, either." "<<<


Originally posted by Daredevil1
Cap with SSS and with Vipers poison=Superhuman strength until it faded. That's why when it faded he still wished he had superhuman strength. Seriously. You'd argue anything that doesn't make sense. To a degree he didn't have before... It doesn't discredit the clear superhumanhood he had regardless. How in the world does it not make sense? What the f**k?

Cap has ENHANCEMENTS. He's been described as SUPER and ENHANCED. Everything the character does is CLEARLY outside the scope of human capability but he's not "super" because he's human?

Yeah THAT'S what doesn't make sense.. Is how you can know who Cap is, what he's done and still draw yourself to the conclusion that he's mere human, peak or not.


Originally posted by Daredevil1
He is not beyond the peak of human potential, whatever he does is what the peak of human potential is jinzin. Well for 1) You have no idea WHAT the peak of human "potential" would indicate and what limitations it would imply... and 2) If Cap IS only the peak of human potential.. then the peak of human "potential" is CLEARLY SUPERHUMAN.

Originally posted by Daredevil1
It can even be true superhuman levels but in the end he's just a pure human so anything he does represents the peak of humanity. This is a contradictory statement that immediately discredits itself and No.. he's not a "pure human" hence his enhancements and resistance to fatigue due to the SSS. no expression



Originally posted by Daredevil1
Heck because of the SSS the guy can live frozen on Ice forever without special medical equipment, ages slow, is immune to many diseases, can't get drunk, and has even healed from a bullet to the head in 12 minutes. So then.... SUPERHUMAN. no expression

Originally posted by Daredevil1
This is superhuman in most "universes" but in the marvel universe it is the peak of human potential. According to whom? Because if your basing this ridiculous argument off of Marvel's label, then you need to recognize that they've also labeled him as enhanced and superhuman as well.

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