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If God is all powerful, all knowing, omnipitent, and all the omni's...why is man flawed?

God creates man in his own image, tells man to belive in him, finds out man doesnt belive in him, kills man off with flood which leaves 6 people and then basically leaves us to it for the better part of 2000 years(ish).

If God knew that Man was flawed why did he not make us perfect in the first place? Does he want us to suffer, like a child with an ant under a magnifying glass or does God not exsist and man made it where he is today of his own making?

Trying to decipher God's motivation is a wonderful way to generate paradoxes. Best I can offer you is, "God" likes to play hide-and-go-seek, but "He" can only play by Himself (since, of course, there is nothing else). So, in order to make it work, God makes part of Himself virtually oblivious to the rest. Now He can play.

Originally posted by Beliver
Does he want us to suffer, like a child with an ant under a magnifying glass or does God not exsist and man made it where he is today of his own making?

False dichotomy.

Originally posted by Mindship
Trying to decipher God's motivation is a wonderful way to generate paradoxes. Best I can offer you is, "God" likes to play hide-and-go-seek, but "He" can only play by Himself (since, of course, there is nothing else). So, in order to make it work, God makes part of Himself virtually oblivious to the rest. Now He can play.

Sounds more like humans to me.

Because God is not man.

Even if we were supposedly 'created in his image', there's a huge difference between God and man.

Originally posted by Beliver
If God is all powerful, all knowing, omnipitent, and all the omni's...why is man flawed?

If God knew that Man was flawed why did he not make us perfect in the first place? Does he want us to suffer.

An is flawed because of free will. Or freedom of choice.

And according to the story God did make us perfect in the first place. He also gave us our own self-control over our minds and bodies rather than control us like mindless puppets.

As the bible tells it, we were once perfect - immortal, no feelings of shame, but no knowledge of anything.

But I guess they did have curiosity, because Adam and Eve made it so that we have free will once they broke The Rule.

^what it says, sure, what it STANDS for , thats any1 guess. the bible is al about projection or transmition of cultural dogma, actually ALL relegions are like that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^what it says, sure, what it STANDS for , thats any1 guess. the bible is al about projection or transmition of cultural dogma, actually ALL relegions are like that.

All beliefs that people consider important are like that.

^i dunno about that, what about the beleif in looking at evidence before reaching a justified conclusion.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^i dunno about that, what about the beleif in looking at evidence before reaching a justified conclusion.

You're making a silly comparison.

The belief in said facts is upheld by something firm. Faith is not; it comes straight from the heart. Huge difference.

EDIT: I'm not exactly sure if that's what you were comparing in retrospect, I think the poster that you replied to was.

^how so? he said all BELEIFS that people consider important are like that. he didnt specifically say FAITH.

True enough, I edited my previous post.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^i dunno about that, what about the beleif in looking at evidence before reaching a justified conclusion.

Okay, not all. Though the difference between all and all except for one is meaninglessly trivial.

However virtually all ways of deciding what is good evidence and what those conculsion would be fall into the same area of eventually forcing ones own beliefs on others due to sheer, blind conviction.

Christians believe God knows we were going to sin when he created us.

What a ****ing sadist.

God is omnipotent so he could theoretically make mankind perfect and still allow for free will. Thus there are only two conclusions, either God isn't omnipotent and therefore not worthy of worship or God is an evil tyrant and not worthy of worship.

C wat I did ther.

Originally posted by Nephthys
God is omnipotent so he could theoretically make mankind perfect and still allow for free will. Thus there are only two conclusions, either God isn't omnipotent and therefore not worthy of worship or God is an evil tyrant and not worthy of worship.

C wat I did ther.

Created a false dichotomy, pretended that a subjective opinion was objective and then acted as though you were some how not an idiot?

So God created us perfect but forgot about free will which lead to Mans fall from grace and lead to us being exiled from paradise. It didn't help that he put a tree in paradise with forbidden fruit and a talking snake. Surely if he is all knowing he would of gotten rid of the pesky snake and planted a nice herb bush instead.

Um if the big cheese is as all powerful as described then isn't the tale of Mans fall evidence of Gods failure. And if he can fail then he is not infailable.

This all hinges on whether he actually exsists. We only have a 2000 year old book and alot of dogma to go on. Oh and the fact that the human species couldn't of come from just 2 people who shared a genetic code (brother + sister).

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^what it says, sure, what it STANDS for , thats any1 guess. the bible is al about projection or transmition of cultural dogma, actually ALL relegions are like that.

I want to know if god uses terms like "any1"

I thought God did create us perfect with free will, hence they ate the apple.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I thought God did create us perfect with free will, hence they ate the apple.

That's the idea. The apple was understanding. Of course, free will without understanding hardly seems well thought out. On the other hand understanding without free will would be sadistic and giving people neither would be boring.

Originally posted by Beliver
If God is all powerful, all knowing, omnipitent, and all the omni's...why is man flawed?
So your reasoning seems to be: God (being all those omni's) should've created a perfect being? But if you (as a person) are flawed, then this conclusion could very well be wrong. In which case, it could be in perfect keeping that God would create a flawed being.

To put another spin on it: how capable God must be that He could create a being which can actively choose not to believe He exists.

Nah. You need new glasses, or to explain other alternatives to my dichotomy.

You clearly haven't look at a single other post in the thread.

The threads about why God didn't make us perfect, as being imperfect will lead to suffering and thus a creator who creates something knowing that they will suffer despite the fact that they could stop it is evil. So therefore the choice is either God couldn't make us perfect, by not being omnipotent or God didn't what to make us perfect, by being evil.

Also, my assertion was that a non-omnipotent being is undeserving of worship, being nothing more than a glorified dictator, and that an omnipotent but evil being is undeserving of worship becuase it Is a dictator.

Explain where I went wrong please.

What if we are perfect, and this man made idea of perfection is not real?

mmm

That's too metaphysical for my liking. Makes my brain twist. no

Buuuut.... Even if what we imagine to be perfection, isn't, logically the concept that we originally had is still possible, as anything less still proves God to be limited and therefore unworthy of our worship.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I thought God did create us perfect with free will, hence they ate the apple.

Which actually turned out to be a good thing, because the knowledge from the tree gave us creativity, the urge to explore.... practically all of the left side of the brain plus all the work that goes into math and science....

So we had to sin so we could be more.

moral of story!

Originally posted by Nephthys
mmm

That's too metaphysical for my liking. Makes my brain twist. no

Buuuut.... Even if what we imagine to be perfection, isn't, logically the concept that we originally had is still possible, as anything less still proves God to be limited and therefore unworthy of our worship.

However, point out to me something that is perfect.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, point out to me something that is perfect.

nothing perfect, but how about the golden ratio seen nature, esp. bees and their ....instinct? to make golden ratio honeycombs.

Apparently only God can possibly be perfect, but if God is perfect then he could create beings who where also perfect. *sees where this is going*. Damn.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
nothing perfect, but how about the golden ratio seen nature, esp. bees and their ....instinct? to make golden ratio honeycombs.

The golden ratio is a good one, also, fractals. Therefore math is about as perfect as can exist.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
nothing perfect, but how about the golden ratio seen nature, esp. bees and their ....instinct? to make golden ratio honeycombs.

Please elaborate.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos Okay, not all. Though the difference between all and all except for one is meaninglessly trivial.

It's not meaninglessly trivial because of the fact that sheer logic disproves so many of said beliefs.



Not the same area, no. Science has given concrete proof to many things, faith doesn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Apparently only God can possibly be perfect, but if God is perfect then he could create beings who where also perfect. Perhaps Man is perfect in his imperfection.

Paradox aside, what would be the point of creating a "perfect" being, especially if one already existed? So the being "doesn't suffer"? Without suffering there's no gumption to do anything, so what's the point of creating a being who's just gonna sit on his (or her) ass all day?

Originally posted by Eon Blue
Not the same area, no. Science has given concrete proof to many things, faith doesn't.

How many doctorates do you have? If it's less than five you're probably taking huge pieces of what modern science says on faith.

Also, not the point. Just because you have evidence and proof (or rather have convinced yourself you have them) doesn't mean that you won't try to force others to agree with you, using the "universal" you not targeting you. Strong belief in virtually anything will end up causing you to preach it and turn it into dogma and try to spread it. Religion is the most common example, without it people would probably turn to political and economic theories since they already tend to treat them like that.

Originally posted by Mindship
Perhaps Man is perfect in his imperfection.

Paradox aside, what would be the point of creating a "perfect" being, especially if one already existed? So the being "doesn't suffer"? Without suffering there's no gumption to do anything, so what's the point of creating a being who's just gonna sit on his (or her) ass all day?

Then if god was perfect, wouldn't "he" also sit on his ass all day?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then if god was perfect, wouldn't "he" also sit on his ass all day? He's perfect on the Sabbath...whichever day that is.

In a manner of speaking, though, in order to create, He must become imperfect.

Originally posted by Mindship
He's perfect on the Sabbath...whichever day that is.

But you had a good point. If you are perfect, then why would you create anything? Perfection does not need or want.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But you had a good point. If you are perfect, then why would you create anything?

Interest? Laughs?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Perfection does not need or want.

Why does perfection not want?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Interest? Laughs?



Why does perfection not want?

Want does to want mean?

So God set us up to fall so we could pick ourselves again and regain paradise? If that is the case how do we regain paradise if we do not know the goal to achieve?

What if Adam hadn't eaten the apple or had God already known he would eat the apple? But then why tell him not to eat the apple?

Now I know why some people think God is a woman. The mind games tick me off.

Originally posted by Beliver
So God set us up to fall so we could pick ourselves again and regain paradise? If that is the case how do we regain paradise if we do not know the goal to achieve?
He didn't set us up to fall. Perhaps He set us up to discover. It's why we explore and do science. If we were perfect, if we already knew everything, there'd be nothing needing to be done. God's greatest creation would be a creation which does nothing.

Dudes. I'm perfect. Proof that God exists? I should think so.

uhuh

I'm perfect, too.



And Shakyamunison, what does to want mean? What exactly do you mean? Are you asking what the definition of 'want' is?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How many doctorates do you have? If it's less than five you're probably taking huge pieces of what modern science says on faith.

Such as?

Chemistry, Psychology, Astronomy, Advanced Mathematics, Physics etc

Without years of schooling in each you have almost no chance of really understanding the higher level concepts of any of them.

Originally posted by Eon Blue
I'm perfect, too.



And Shakyamunison, what does to want mean? What exactly do you mean? Are you asking what the definition of 'want' is?

My question is: Would a perfect being have a need or want?

Originally posted by Eon Blue
I'm perfect, too.

Clearly, if one being is perfect, there cannot be another, non-identical being that is also perfect.

BLASHPEMER!

You two should fight over your divine perfection. I shall side with the winner

It is a good question , if the Creator was all Good and all Knowing then why would all this carnage happen Worldwide. That is a good question friend, but I'm afraid the question is very complx and I hope I don't freak you out with my answer.

The Human Races are not from this Planet , they have recently Colonized this Planet, all the different Races come from different parts of the Cosmos and they Colonized earth. The Ancient informtation is under lock and key and simply cannot be disclosed for reasons of National security.

You and your descendants come from Lyra , there was ancient War with dark beings that wanted to destroy and enslave your ancesters. Religions have been created by these dark entities to Control and Enslave you , you see that is why their is so much carnage in the World.

So where does God fit into this picture?. There is a Creator Spirit on earth and in the Cosmos but the spirit does not get involved , it observes and Creates. It does not partake in the evolution, but can give council if you meditate and commune with spirit.

So Religions have Clouded the truth. You are an ancient spirit and you will go on forever and ever , your body will leave you again and again but you will go on eternal.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The golden ratio is a good one, also, fractals. Therefore math is about as perfect as can exist.

Well, if you go by what the bible says, that bit of near-perfectness or even perfection that math or science may achieve, all that came from the tree o' knowledge.

like, before adam and eve ate that fruit, they knew everything, and so did not want or need to explore further. but the tree gave them questions, . but most importantly, the curiosity to go on and discover the golden ratio, which was in nature before we discovered it.

i'm not even going to try to interpret that, even though i know it's not what really happened.

OH MY GOD, I SEE THE LIIIIIIGHT!!!!

Be careful not to look directly at it. The Light can be harmful to the eyes and sometimes the brain.

I think the entire point is that God defies logic, so you can't ask any questions about him.

And the tongue apparently. wink1

Originally posted by edisonik
It is a good question , if the Creator was all Good and all Knowing then why would all this carnage happen Worldwide. That is a good question friend, but I'm afraid the question is very complx and I hope I don't freak you out with my answer.

The Human Races are not from this Planet , they have recently Colonized this Planet, all the different Races come from different parts of the Cosmos and they Colonized earth. The Ancient informtation is under lock and key and simply cannot be disclosed for reasons of National security.

You and your descendants come from Lyra , there was ancient War with dark beings that wanted to destroy and enslave your ancesters. Religions have been created by these dark entities to Control and Enslave you , you see that is why their is so much carnage in the World.

So where does God fit into this picture?. There is a Creator Spirit on earth and in the Cosmos but the spirit does not get involved , it observes and Creates. It does not partake in the evolution, but can give council if you meditate and commune with spirit.

So Religions have Clouded the truth. You are an ancient spirit and you will go on forever and ever , your body will leave you again and again but you will go on eternal.

That or the idea of god is just man made and we are all animals that evolved on this planet.

Originally posted by edisonik
So Religions have Clouded the truth.

Exactly. Thus, I will not listen to you.

Originally posted by edisonik
It is a good question , if the Creator was all Good and all Knowing then why would all this carnage happen Worldwide. That is a good question friend, but I'm afraid the question is very complx and I hope I don't freak you out with my answer.

The Human Races are not from this Planet , they have recently Colonized this Planet, all the different Races come from different parts of the Cosmos and they Colonized earth. The Ancient informtation is under lock and key and simply cannot be disclosed for reasons of National security.

You and your descendants come from Lyra , there was ancient War with dark beings that wanted to destroy and enslave your ancesters. Religions have been created by these dark entities to Control and Enslave you , you see that is why their is so much carnage in the World.

So where does God fit into this picture?. There is a Creator Spirit on earth and in the Cosmos but the spirit does not get involved , it observes and Creates. It does not partake in the evolution, but can give council if you meditate and commune with spirit.

So Religions have Clouded the truth. You are an ancient spirit and you will go on forever and ever , your body will leave you again and again but you will go on eternal.


you either bn watching southpark or you are mormon or cookoo cookoo

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
you either bn watching southpark or you are mormon or cookoo cookoo he's not Mormon.