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I see those as being the only 2 options. Which one is true, I don't know. But I definitley know that with the world we live in it's impossible for God to be a good, merciful and caring entity.

Got something against America?

Originally posted by KidRock
I see those as being the only 2 options. Which one is true, I don't know. But I definitley know that with the world we live in it's impossible for God to be a good, merciful and caring entity.

Which god?

The real one

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The real one

I don't think he is that enlightened.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Which god?

The god of any religion that believes he created the Earth and everything in it.

Originally posted by KidRock
The god of any religion that believes he created the Earth and everything in it.

Not all gods are war gods like the god of the OT.

Originally posted by KidRock
I see those as being the only 2 options. Which one is true, I don't know. But I definitley know that with the world we live in it's impossible for God to be a good, merciful and caring entity.

Stop talking.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Stop talking.

Why?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not all gods are war gods like the god of the OT.

Then please respond to it.

If someone goes around and creates murder, rape, assault, terror, cancer, AIDS, ect.

Would you consider them a good person? Or the scum of the earth that cares about nobody?

you're forgetting love and beauty, why do you insist on focusing on the negative?


would we know what love and caring is without hate and destruction?

i dont think so. It would all be neutral

Originally posted by Mairuzu
you're forgetting love and beauty, why do you insist on focusing on the negative?


would we know what love and caring is without hate and destruction?

i dont think so. It would all be neutral


Sure, God would have created love too. A good thing, but then there are all the terrible things.


Or the scenario of the man that loves a woman, but she does not love him back so he ends up killing himself.

Why would a God taunt and destroy a mans life like that?

free will. killing yourself is a sin

not wanting to love someone is up to you and only you.

we obviously have the free will to love or not love god, dont we?

"I absolutely believe in God. And I absolutely hate the f*cker."
-- Riddick, Pitch Black

"It's okay to get angry at God. He can take it."
-- Anonymous

Originally posted by Mairuzu
free will. killing yourself is a sin

not wanting to love someone is up to you and only you.

we obviously have the free will to love or not love god, dont we?

Do you believe God has a set goal for all of us? That he has pre-determined our lives and destinies?

Yes or no?


edit: But God created all of us individually..why would he create a person knowing that they will just end up killing themselves?

Originally posted by KidRock
Do you believe God has a set goal for all of us? That he has pre-determined our lives and destinies?

Yes or no?


edit: But God created all of us individually..why would he create a person knowing that they will just end up killing themselves? I believe he knows all. Knows what ill do, when ill do it, when ill die, how ill die.

all

because he can

Originally posted by KidRock
Then please respond to it.

If someone goes around and creates murder, rape, assault, terror, cancer, AIDS, ect.

Would you consider them a good person? Or the scum of the earth that cares about nobody?

I believe that the Christian god is just like the Greek gods; man made. Therefore, your point is based on a man made idea.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
I believe he knows all. Knows what ill do, when ill do it, when ill die, how ill die.

all

So then..what the ****?

How could you love someone that specifically creates a human being only to have them suffer?

If God knows all then he knows that baby will end up dieing 3 days after it's born..that's its life, over in a painful death.

Or the priest that gets hit by a bus and is pinned between 2 guys as he burns to death.

Or the countless other tragic lives we see in this world.

How can you say God is a good thing after all of that?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I believe that the Christian god is just like the Greek gods; man made. Therefore, your point is based on a man made idea.

Ok so then you dont believe in god?

Originally posted by KidRock
So then..what the ****?

How could you love someone that specifically creates a human being only to have them suffer?

If God knows all then he knows that baby will end up dieing 3 days after it's born..that's its life, over in a painful death.

Or the priest that gets hit by a bus and is pinned between 2 guys as he burns to death.

Or the countless other tragic lives we see in this world.

How can you say God is a good thing after all of that?



Ok so then you dont believe in god? baby will have a better life in heaven anyways


god knows it, he doesnt control it

i can say hes a good thing because i exist, and i love, and i love loving

edit: for all i know, these questions you're asking me may put my faith into question, my belief.

But i believe in god, and always will

Originally posted by KidRock
...
Ok so then you dont believe in god?

I simply don't believe in the Christian god, however, I do believe that the universe is a living being.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
baby will have a better life in heaven anyways


god knows it, he doesnt control it

So then why the **** create the baby in the first place? To just cause pain and suffering to the parents? How illogical and ridiculous does that sound?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I simply don't believe in the Christian god, however, I do believe that the universe is a living being.

Explain further if you will.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
i can say hes a good thing because i exist, and i love, and i love loving

edit: for all i know, these questions you're asking me may put my faith into question, my belief.

But i believe in god, and always will


As I said..God may exist..he is just a terrible and hateful thing if he does.

Originally posted by KidRock
So then why the **** create the baby in the first place? To just cause pain and suffering to the parents? How illogical and ridiculous does that sound?



Explain further if you will.




As I said..God may exist..he is just a terrible and hateful thing if he does. the thing is, you'll never be able to comprehend gods actions. Not all of them at least.

He's a superior being, and you... well... are not

Originally posted by KidRock
...Explain further if you will...

Explain what further? I am not sure what you are asking. Feel free to ask me a question.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why?

Because everything he says is idiotic. There are so many plot holes with his logic that it hurts.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Because everything he says is idiotic. There are so many plot holes with his logic that it hurts.

I find that to be true with a lot of people.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Explain what further? I am not sure what you are asking. Feel free to ask me a question.

Well what the hell do you mean by the universe being a living thing?

Is it watching us masturbate? Does it control shit? Can it throw a comet into our planet?

Originally posted by KidRock
I see those as being the only 2 options. Which one is true, I don't know. But I definitley know that with the world we live in it's impossible for God to be a good, merciful and caring entity.

or maybe he isn't our babysitter that has to give us a utopia to f*ck up, which we would.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I simply don't believe in the Christian god, however, I do believe that the universe is a living being. looks like satan has gotten to you

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Because everything he says is idiotic. There are so many plot holes with his logic that it hurts.

Please for the love of God at least tell me you're an atheist and making that comment.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
the thing is, you'll never be able to comprehend gods actions. Not all of them at least.

He's a superior being, and you... well... are not

So there is a reason behind God creating a baby and killing it 3 days later? All the pain and suffering the parents feel and the life that baby will never have has a reason behind it?

And your understand of it is: "Don't question it, just have faith in it"?

How far will that take you? What about the thousands of babies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that were evaporated by atomic bombs?

"Don't question it, you wouldn't understand god's logic"

Dont you think maybe he should explain himself then?

"fooled you" i should say

Originally posted by KidRock
Well what the hell do you mean by the universe being a living thing?

Life is a natural part of the universe.

Originally posted by KidRock
Is it watching us masturbate?

Does the sun watch you masturbate?

Originally posted by KidRock
Does it control shit?

The laws of physics could be said to control "shit", but I think that is just an over simplification.

Originally posted by KidRock
Can it throw a comet into our planet?

Throw is the wrong word. The intent of the universe (God) cannot be equated to the intent of humans.

Originally posted by KidRock
Please for the love of God at least tell me you're an atheist and making that comment.



So there is a reason behind God creating a baby and killing it 3 days later? All the pain and suffering the parents feel and the life that baby will never have has a reason behind it?

And your understand of it is: "Don't question it, just have faith in it"?

How far will that take you? What about the thousands of babies in Hiroshima and Nagasaki that were evaporated by atomic bombs?

"Don't question it, you wouldn't understand god's logic"

Dont you think maybe he should explain himself then? god knows how destructive we are. He made us this way for a reason, we are so flawed and imperfect, the way he intended

Originally posted by Mairuzu
looks like satan has gotten to you

Satan is a mythological being made up by humans.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Life is a natural part of the universe.



Does the sun watch you masturbate?



The laws of physics could be said to control "shit", but I think that is just an over simplification.



Throw is the wrong word. The intent of the universe (God) cannot be equated to the intent of humans.

**** it, not worth it. lol.

Originally posted by KidRock
**** it, not worth it. lol.

I'm sorry you feel that way. We could have had fun.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
god knows how destructive we are. He made us this way for a reason, we are so flawed and imperfect, the way he intended

And why did he do that?


Answer:

Because God is a kid with an ant farm and he enjoys watching the ants burn under a magnifying glass.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Satan is a mythological being made up by humans. I'm sorry, hopefully you'll realize one day.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Satan is a mythological being made up by humans.

The universe having an intelligence is a human construct as well. In fact the idea of a universe in the first place involves grouping things in the way we want to.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm sorry you feel that way. We could have had fun.

I felt like I was reading "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" while reading your post..although entertaining, it's far too difficult and time consuming to go through again.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
I'm sorry, hopefully you'll realize one day.

Realize Christianity? I used to be a Christian. I know how delusional that belief can be.

Originally posted by KidRock
And why did he do that?


Answer:

Because God is a kid with an ant farm and he enjoys watching the ants burn under a magnifying glass. All of us humans aren't the same. There is a lot of kindness in the world, the rest is corrupted by satan. His main goal is to lure us away from god and not to believe

Originally posted by KidRock
I felt like I was reading "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" while reading your post..although entertaining, it's far too difficult and time consuming to go through again.

Try me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Realize Christianity? I used to be a Christian. I know how delusional that belief can be. Sorry that you lost your way. I'm sure god will lead you back to it one day.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Realize Christianity? I used to be a Christian. I know how delusional that belief can be.

hmm But why not choose to be completely non-delusional?

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Sorry that you lost your way. I'm sure god will lead you back to it one day.

I did not loose anything. However, I have discovered one important piece of information. The feelings I had as a Christian (the Holy Spirit) is the same feeling that I now have as a Buddhist. Ether God is in both Christianity and Buddhism, or the feeling that I am talking about is a human feeling that is independent of the religion a person is in.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
hmm But why not choose to be completely non-delusional?

Because we are human. Freeing ourselves from attachments will lead to the eradication of suffering, but it also eradicates the very things that make up human. There is an evolutionary advantage to being within a religious frame work. The only requirement to keep a person from falling into further delusion is the acceptance of responsibility for all things in your life.

Also, the eradication of delusion is a delusion.

Is this close to what you're talking about?

Such limited choices are usually false ones. Now, it so happens that I think he's right with the latter of his two options. But for the wrong reasons. Anyone with half a degree in being a lapsed theist can explain away the presence of "evil" in the world through a variety of ways. But the thread starter's tone, and responses to such justifications, leads me to believe he isn't looking to consider alternative possibilities.

So. Those are the two choices? Cool. The second is far more likely than the first. Now stop complaining about it and go enjoy yourself.

Originally posted by KidRock
I see those as being the only 2 options. Which one is true, I don't know. But I definitley know that with the world we live in it's impossible for God to be a good, merciful and caring entity. Let's speak as if God was real. (In my opinion, he is)

He gives us the very capability to act and use our tools of either doing good or sinning to test us mortals to show if you are worthy into going to the heavens or not in the afterlife.

Why do many keep ignoring this concept? It's obvious.

But God is omniscient (all-knowing), so he knew at our conception who would sin and who wouldn't. So by still creating those who would, he creating them just so he can torture them, they have no real choice in the matter. Does that sound like a good God too you?

Originally posted by JacopeX
Let's speak as if God was real. (In my opinion, he is)

He gives us the very capability to act and use our tools of either doing good or sinning to test us mortals to show if you are worthy into going to the heavens or not in the afterlife.

Why do many keep ignoring this concept? It's obvious.

Because when you don't assume that god is real, then your points fall apart.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But God is omniscient (all-knowing), so he knew at our conception who would sin and who wouldn't. So by still creating those who would, he creating them just so he can torture them, they have no real choice in the matter. Does that sound like a good God too you?

Easily solved by assuming God isn't omniscient. The bible certainly doesn't portray him that way, in fact pretty much no religions do.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because when you don't assume that god is real, then your points fall apart.

Poor argument, anything will fall apart if you assume the premise is false.

Originally posted by KidRock
So then why the **** create the baby in the first place? To just cause pain and suffering to the parents? How illogical and ridiculous does that sound?

God didn't create the baby, the parents did. And if he stepped in and kept the baby from ever being born, do you think it's more likely that the parents would thank God for saving them from the possibility of pain or spend their time begging God to send them a baby?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
...Poor argument, anything will fall apart if you assume the premise is false.

I was answering the last question: "Why do many keep ignoring this concept? It's obvious." I should have cut the quote down to just that part.

But then God is limited, and moves into the zone of 'super-human'. Being worshipped then makes him nothing more than a tyrannical dictator and he ceases to be God.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But then God is limited, and moves into the zone of 'super-human'. Being worshipped then makes him nothing more than a tyrannical dictator and he ceases to be God.

Then do not worship god.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But then God is limited, and moves into the zone of 'super-human'. Being worshipped then makes him nothing more than a tyrannical dictator and he ceases to be God.

Why is your specific definition of God the right one? Why does being powerful and worshiped make someone a dictator?

Frankly any creature powerful enough to be viewed as a God probably wouldn't qualify as a dictator on the grounds that it wouldn't care about or notice us. The difference in scale is mindboggling, even if you're talking about a God that just created a single planet.

Becuase without an omni-something, that being is just a 'super-human'.
And because thats the definition of a dictator. Well, actually a dictator is closer to being someone powerful who demands to be worshipped/ obeyed and punishes you if you don't.



Well why create us in the first place, or care enough about wether he was being respected to torture us for eternity if we don't?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Becuase without an omni-something, that being is just a 'super-human'.
And because thats the definition of a dictator. Well, actually a dictator is closer to being someone powerful who demands to be worshipped/ obeyed and punishes you if you don't.



Well why create us in the first place, or care enough about wether he was being respected to torture us for eternity if we don't?

So, you believe in hell?

No, I don't even believe in god. Just being hypothetical here.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
All of us humans aren't the same. There is a lot of kindness in the world, the rest is corrupted by satan. His main goal is to lure us away from god and not to believe
Assuming there is a "Devil", I seriously doubt that all the corruption in the world could be attributed to him because people are selfish(and therefor evil) from the moment they're born. Humans don't need someone whispering evil things in their ear to do bad things, all they need is a shortage of good influences...

If I were the Devil, I'd much rather kick back and watch the things humans are capable of WITHOUT my influence because then I'd get to laugh at God while pointing out how flawed his children are.

Originally posted by KidRock
Please for the love of God at least tell me you're an atheist and making that comment.

Why does it matter? Relying on something as trivial as that for a distracting point is exactly a part of my case. Someone's specific religion has nothing to do with poor logic.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Becuase without an omni-something, that being is just a 'super-human'.

Something that's all powerful is also just superhuman . . .

Originally posted by Nephthys
And because thats the definition of a dictator. Well, actually a dictator is closer to being someone powerful who demands to be worshipped/ obeyed and punishes you if you don't.

Yeah, the second one is the accurate one. But then again, there a so many Gods and definitions and interperitations that it still doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well why create us in the first place, or care enough about wether he was being respected to torture us for eternity if we don't?

It wouldn't create use intentionally nor (as I pointed out before) would it care about us at all.

Originally posted by Mr. Rhythmic
Someone's specific religion has nothing to do with poor logic.

Not according to real atheists.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Humans don't need someone whispering evil things in their ear to do bad things...
That reminds me of something, I think, Lestat said, possibly in Interview With The Vampire: that it was no wonder humans didn't believe in vampires, given what they could inflict upon themselves.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Assuming there is a "Devil", I seriously doubt that all the corruption in the world could be attributed to him because people are selfish(and therefor evil) from the moment they're born. Humans don't need someone whispering evil things in their ear to do bad things, all they need is a shortage of good influences...

If I were the Devil, I'd much rather kick back and watch the things humans are capable of WITHOUT my influence because then I'd get to laugh at God while pointing out how flawed his children are. unfortunately, thats not whats going on.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
unfortunately, thats not whats going on.

You are so correct. That is not what is going on.

Yup

Originally posted by Mairuzu
unfortunately, thats not whats going on.
Says who? I don't remember a passage in the Bible that gives the indication that the Devil is the source for every bad thought that crosses a persons mind.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Yup

Yep, we are responsible for all the good and evil we do.

All i said was that the devil corrupts, just as he did to eve and ever since then.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yep, we are responsible for all the good and evil we do. you are absolutely right. Way to state the obvious

its our choice whether to give into tempation or not.

Originally posted by Mairuzu
All i said was that the devil corrupts, just as he did to eve and ever since then.

How long ago was that?

Originally posted by Mairuzu
All i said was that the devil corrupts, just as he did to eve and ever since then.
Yes but you attributed ALL the corruption to Satan. I'm asking if there's anything in the Bible that actually supports that notion beyond his involvement with Humans first sin?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but you attributed ALL the corruption to Satan. I'm asking if there's anything in the Bible that actually supports that notion beyond his involvement with Humans first sin?

Even if all sin is attributed to Satan, then who created Satan? It all goes back to the Christian god.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm asking if there's anything in the Bible that actually supports that notion beyond his involvement with Humans first sin? Yes.

Two well known occasions are when he tried to tempt Job and Jesus.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Even if all sin is attributed to Satan, then who created Satan? It all goes back to the Christian god. Free will.


Btw, God hates you guys, but he loves me.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How long ago was that?

Exactly 6000 years ago.

Originally posted by Mindset
Free will.


Btw, God hates you guys, but he loves me.

Angels do not have free will.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Angels do not have free will.

We're angels?

I want wings!

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
We're angels?

I want wings!

And when we are dead, we all have wings, we won't need legs to stand.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Angels do not have free will. Says who?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And when we are dead, we all have wings, we won't need legs to stand.

Wouldn't the wings get tired? Besides, people without legs are creepy.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Even if all sin is attributed to Satan, then who created Satan? It all goes back to the Christian god.
No it would all go back to man because man chooses to sin. Otherwise no children should ever be punished for staying up too late since they only broke a rule because their parents made it one.

Originally posted by darthgoober
No it would all go back to man because man chooses to sin. Otherwise no children should ever be punished for staying up too late since they only broke a rule because their parents made it one.

But Satan rebelled first.

Because he has free will.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But Satan rebelled first.
Only because he was around first.

First or second doesn't matter. Just because the kid's older cousin told them how to sneak past their parents for the purpose of staying up past their bedtime doesn't mean that the kids shouldn't be held responsible for their actions and it still doesn't mean that the parents are at fault for making the rule.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Only because he was around first.

First or second doesn't matter. Just because the kid's older cousin told them how to sneak past their parents for the purpose of staying up past their bedtime doesn't mean that the kids shouldn't be held responsible for their actions and it still doesn't mean that the parents are at fault for making the rule.

Christian mythology is confusing.

so god punishes and torments beings who have free will because they dont want to be slaves and obey every command? hhmmmm... something doesnt feel right here.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
so god punishes and torments beings who have free will because they dont want to be slaves and obey every command? hhmmmm... something doesnt feel right here. Probably the fact that you're a sinner. uhuh

Now excuse me while I exercise my free will and go rape and murder you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Angels do not have free will.
I remember reading something about this once. Because they are closer to God and more aware of His Divine Plan, there is less incentive or opportunity for exercising any plans of their own. IIRC, this is also why angels (some, anyway) are envious of human existence.

These two choices aren't enough.
Some of what you call god's "cruelty" is human cruelty, or natural disaster cruelty.

Are you going to blame god when you run out of gas in the middle of the road? No... that's your fault - you didn't look at the meter and see if it was close to Empty.

Is it not possible that both a higher power who has given us free will to coexist with science? Or how about a higher power who is everyone's higher power : Bhudda, Yahweh, Vishnu, and every other belief in the world?

Ultimatums have always been a pet peeve. There are always other choices.

I know there are atheists on the board, and hey, that's fine. But threads like JIA's and threads which basically say "there is no god" are the same kind of gook. No ultimatums. Use your brain and question things. Come to your own conclusions.

But don't push everything down people's throats.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
so god punishes and torments beings who have free will because they dont want to be slaves and obey every command? hhmmmm... something doesnt feel right here. Its our choice whether to give into temptation by satan or not. He starts it, we choose to finish it or not.

MASTER DECEIVERRRR. You know

Originally posted by Mairuzu
Its our choice whether to give into temptation by satan or not. He starts it, we choose to finish it or not.

MASTER DECEIVERRRR. You know

No, the devil made me do it.

Probably haermm

no, it was gods will.

Originally posted by KidRock
I see those as being the only 2 options. Which one is true, I don't know. But I definitley know that with the world we live in it's impossible for God to be a good, merciful and caring entity. All the bad that happens in the world is done by humans, not God. Free will.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
All the bad that happens in the world is done by humans, not God. Free will.

Like I said..what about things that are not controlled by free will?

Things like babies dieing 3 days after they're born.

People getting cancer or diseases when they're young or a priest spreading the word of god that is killed while still in the Seminary.

Don't hide behind "free will". Admit it's god that causes these things to happen or admit that god isn't all powerful or admit god doesn't exist.

Originally posted by siriuswriter

Are you going to blame god when you run out of gas in the middle of the road? No... that's your fault - you didn't look at the meter and see if it was close to Empty.


No I wouldn't blame god for that, because that was my own fault. It IS god's fault however if a 5 year old dies of cancer, or a baby dies 3 days after they're born..things these people have no control over.

So why would god do these things?

It's obviously not free will, it's the actions of god.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Ultimatums have always been a pet peeve. There are always other choices. There are not always other choices as with God, you believe in him and go to Heaven and don't believe in him and go to Hell. What other choice is there?

Originally posted by KidRock
Like I said..what about things that are not controlled by free will?

Things like babies dieing 3 days after they're born.

People getting cancer or diseases when they're young or a priest spreading the word of god that is killed while still in the Seminary.

Don't hide behind "free will". Admit it's god that causes these things to happen or admit that god isn't all powerful or admit god doesn't exist. Some things we aren't meant to know in this life. I know that sounds lame, but it's true, to me, anyway. God IS all powerful. But it's hard to explain to someone who has no faith. If you have faith, you accept whatever God throws your/our way and deal with it the best you/we can.

BTW: Don't tell me to admit God doesn't exist. You don't see me telling you to admit that he DOES exist, do you? I cannot prove his existemce, just like you cannot disprove it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Some things we aren't meant to know in this life. I know that sounds lame, but it's true, to me, anyway. God IS all powerful. But it's hard to explain to someone who has no faith. If you have faith, you accept whatever God throws your/our way and deal with it the best you/we can.

BTW: Don't tell me to admit God doesn't exist. You don't see me telling you to admit that he DOES exist, do you? I cannot prove his existemce, just like you cannot disprove it.

So you believe that all good things in this world are due to God and all bad things are due to humans?

But God created us, God is perfect, how could he create something that isn't perfect?

And if he meant to create us in a way that wasn't perfect, why would he create us to live in a world with so much pain and misery?

And I hope you never plan on telling your kids that Santa Claus isn't real by your logic. You cannot prove he doesn't exist..can you?

Originally posted by KidRock
So you believe that all good things in this world are due to God and all bad things are due to humans?

But God created us, God is perfect, how could he create something that isn't perfect?

And if he meant to create us in a way that wasn't perfect, why would he create us to live in a world with so much pain and misery?

And I hope you never plan on telling your kids that Santa Claus isn't real by your logic. You cannot prove he doesn't exist..can you? I dont have the answers for you, sorry man.

And if Santa was real, he'd have been mistaken for a burglar and shot by now.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Some things we aren't meant to know in this life. I know that sounds lame, but it's true, to me, anyway. What make one thing not meant to be know and the other things is? What would be the dividing line?
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
God IS all powerful. But it's hard to explain to someone who has no faith. How is this hard to explain to someone not of the faith? All powerful is just that, all powerful and can do anything and everything. It is the reasoning behind something that can do anything that is hard to explain to a person not of your faith, why something that has the power to do anything on a whim would allow someone to suffer or whatever. This is the part that is hard to explain.Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
And if Santa was real, he'd have been mistaken for a burglar and shot by now. No he was arrested for watching kids sleep

Originally posted by Da Pittman
No he was arrested for watching kids sleep

Where is that illegal?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
There are not always other choices as with God, you believe in him and go to Heaven and don't believe in him and go to Hell. What other choice is there?

At least two obvious others . . .

Originally posted by Da Pittman
What make one thing not meant to be know and the other things is? What would be the dividing line?
How is this hard to explain to someone not of the faith? All powerful is just that, all powerful and can do anything and everything. It is the reasoning behind something that can do anything that is hard to explain to a person not of your faith, why something that has the power to do anything on a whim would allow someone to suffer or whatever. This is the part that is hard to explain. No he was arrested for watching kids sleep

It's a theory. A perfect one? Nope. Never said it was.

Dude I know, I know it looks cluster****ed. I dont have an explaination, I have only my faith, and it is rock solid and ever unwavering.

He did? haermm

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Where is that illegal?
Its in my little book that I got here... See? *holding it up to the monitor*

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

At least two obvious others . . . ...which are?

Which God? You don't know what God is, so how cna you make a judgment related to him/her/it?

You heard of three books that talk about God - Bible, Qu'ran and Torah, and you've probably not read either of them.
Just by the fact that you take those three ideas and judge God by them, you're as narrowminded as the books you're drawing your conclusions from.

The God they all speak about is Ahura Mazda - the first God in our history that had no others like him.

So you're ignoring other possibilities of what God is - is it a force, is it nature, is it universe, is it karma?

What about God is a being who created this planet and us then installed himself into us in order to feel anger, love, pain, hate, happiness...?

Unless you can objectivelly define what God is, (and you cannot objectivelly do that) this whole ''God is this and that'' is utter bollocks.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
...which are?

Believe and go to hell (omnimalevolence). Don't believe go to heaven (omnibenevolence).

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Dude I know, I know it looks cluster****ed. I dont have an explaination, I have only my faith, and it is rock solid and ever unwavering. Does that mean when your on a ship at sea and its rocking your not?!?

Originally posted by KidRock
It IS god's fault however if a 5 year old dies of cancer...Perhaps when a child dies, researchers and doctors try that much harder to save others.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Does that mean when your on a ship at sea and its rocking your not?!? I am a calm eye at the center of the storm.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Believe and go to hell (omnimalevolence). Don't believe go to heaven (omnibenevolence). However that God of the Bible doesn't have this options unless I'm mistaken. I don't remember reading that if you believe in me I'm going to send you to Hell.

Originally posted by KidRock
But God created us, God is perfect, how could he create something that isn't perfect?

Terrible fallacy, you can make something that isn't organic.

Originally posted by KidRock
And I hope you never plan on telling your kids that Santa Claus isn't real by your logic. You cannot prove he doesn't exist..can you?

Sure you can. It's called coffee.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Which God? You don't know what God is, so how cna you make a judgment related to him/her/it?

You heard of three books that talk about God - Bible, Qu'ran and Torah, and you've probably not read either of them.
Just by the fact that you take those three ideas and judge God by them, you're as narrowminded as the books you're drawing your conclusions from.

The God they all speak about is Ahura Mazda - the first God in our history that had no others like him.

So you're ignoring other possibilities of what God is - is it a force, is it nature, is it universe, is it karma?

What about God is a being who created this planet and us then installed himself into us in order to feel anger, love, pain, hate, happiness...?

Unless you can objectivelly define what God is, (and you cannot objectivelly do that) this whole ''God is this and that'' is utter bollocks. You are reading way too much into it, man. I have a certain set of beliefs I follow, and they all point to Christianity. I believe in them, I follow them. In my own way, of course. Alot of Christians would say that I am in fact NOT a Christian. But I am the way I am, and I love the way that I am. I am Popeye the sailor man.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
However that God of the Bible doesn't have this options unless I'm mistaken. I don't remember reading that if you believe in me I'm going to send you to Hell.

They're certainly not common interpretations of the Biblical God. Both exist for various reasons. Gnostics felt that heaven and hell are equivalent traps for human souls (or "thetans" and thus going to heaven isn't meaningfully different from going to hell. A few modern liberal Christians interpret good works as being more important to going to heaven than belief in God which can result in "disbelief --> heaven".

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You are reading way too much into it, man. I have a certain set of beliefs I follow, and they all point to Christianity. I believe in them, I follow them. In my own way, of course. Alot of Christians would say that I am in fact NOT a Christian. But I am the way I am, and I love the way that I am. I am Popeye the sailor man. I'm sorry to hear that you have giant tumors in your arms and you had a stroke

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I'm sorry to hear that you have giant tumors in your arms and you had a stroke Cartoon version!! haermm

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
They're certainly not common interpretations of the Biblical God. Both exist for various reasons. Gnostics felt that heaven and hell are equivalent traps for human souls (or "thetans" and thus going to heaven isn't meaningfully different from going to hell. A few modern liberal Christians interpret good works as being more important to going to heaven than belief in God which can result in "disbelief --> heaven". That is the difference though that these are not the main steam views but how others view the book. The book says that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ now this is a ultimatum that I was talking about. Yes could you say that God wouldn't send everyone to Hell just because they don't believe in Jesus or some other situation but the Jesus said he is the only way to Heaven.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I dont have the answers for you, sorry man.

And if Santa was real, he'd have been mistaken for a burglar and shot by now.

So why put so much faith into something you don't know about?

Originally posted by KidRock
So why put so much faith into something you don't know about? Things that have happened to me, it's a bit personal.

he probably tested negative in his blood test and viewed it as a miracle

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
he probably tested negative in his blood test and viewed it as a miracle

Wut?

Originally posted by KidRock
Like I said..what about things that are not controlled by free will?

Things like babies dieing 3 days after they're born.

People getting cancer or diseases when they're young or a priest spreading the word of god that is killed while still in the Seminary.

Don't hide behind "free will". Admit it's god that causes these things to happen or admit that god isn't all powerful or admit god doesn't exist. People were perfect, Adam and Eve exercised their free will and sinned agaisnt God, thus losing their perfection.

Now humans are imperfect, which is why they get sick. Everyone dies, whether it's a 3 day old baby or a 80 year old man, not much difference.

Someone killing a priest is their free will.

Originally posted by Mindset
People were perfect, Adam and Eve exercised their free will and sinned agaisnt God, thus losing their perfection.

Okay, that is genuinely contradictory.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Okay, that is genuinely contradictory. Not really.

They had perfect health, that doesn't mean they would make perfect choices.

Originally posted by Mindset
Not really.

They had perfect health, that doesn't mean they would make perfect choices.

Then they weren't really perfect, they just had perfect health. That's a big difference.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then they weren't really perfect, they just had perfect health. That's a big difference. Ok, now that we've cleared that up is your life complete?

It should be.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then they weren't really perfect, they just had perfect health. That's a big difference.

Correct lol.

People who are perfect, don't make imperfect choices and mistakes.

That is just the biggest contradiction.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Wut?

an std.

Originally posted by KidRock
Correct lol.

People who are perfect, don't make imperfect choices and mistakes.

That is just the biggest contradiction. Well you could be perfect, and know what the right choice is, but still choose to make the wrong choice.

I know 1+1 = 2, but I can say it's 3.

It's not really a flaw in my being.

Originally posted by Mindset
Well you could be perfect, and know what the right choice is, but still make the wrong choice.

I know 1+1 = 2, but I can say it's 3.

It's not really a flaw in my being.

Yes it is, it proves you're stupid at math lol.

Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness.

If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have mad flawed decisions.

Originally posted by KidRock
Yes it is, it proves you're stupid at math lol.

Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness.

If Adam and Eve were perfect, they would not have mad flawed decisions. I wouldn't be stupid at math since I actually know what the correct answer is.

You can be flawless and choose to make a flawed decision, can you not?

Originally posted by Mindset
You can be flawless and choose to make a flawed decision, can you not?

Not if it leads to placing you in a worse state than before.

Originally posted by Mindset
I wouldn't be stupid at math since I actually know what the correct answer is.

You can be flawless and choose to make a flawed decision, can you not?


i guess so just look at what god did perfect example.

Originally posted by Mindset
I wouldn't be stupid at math since I actually know what the correct answer is.

You can be flawless and choose to make a flawed decision, can you not?

But why would you do that if it does nothing but hurt you? And hurt HUMANITY for that matter in Adam and Eve's case.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not if it leads to placing you in a worse state than before. They didn't think it would put them in a worse state.

God told them not to eat from the tree, but Satan told them they would be like God, knowing good from bad.

Originally posted by Mindset
They didn't think it would put them in a worse state.

God told them not to eat from the tree, but Satan told them they would be like God, knowing good from bad.

Then you cannot argue they're perfect lol.

Originally posted by KidRock
Then you cannot argue they're perfect lol. How does that mean they weren't perfect?

Their knowledge was not at the level of God's, that does not take away from their perfection.

Originally posted by Mindset
How does that mean they weren't perfect?

Their knowledge was not at the level of God's, that does not take away from their perfection.

Because they have a flaw and made the wrong decision.

Things that are perfect don't have flaws.

Originally posted by KidRock
Because they have a flaw and made the wrong decision.

Things that are perfect don't have flaws. Where's the flaw?

Not being equal to God is not a flaw.

Originally posted by Mindset
Where's the flaw?

Not being equal to God is not a flaw.

The flaw was: They made the wrong decision that caused problems for not only themselves, but all of humanity.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
an std. haermm No.

Originally posted by Mindset
They didn't think it would put them in a worse state.

God told them not to eat from the tree, but Satan told them they would be like God, knowing good from bad.

Yeah always wondered about that.

So they don't know good from evil, but God wants them to judge it as evil to eat from the tree and therefore not to do it, that just seems like a dick move, really.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah always wondered about that.

So they don't know good from evil, but God wants them to judge it as evil to eat from the tree and therefore not to do it, that just seems like a dick move, really.

that just blew my mind

Originally posted by KidRock
It IS god's fault however if a 5 year old dies of cancer.
Originally posted by Mindship
Perhaps when a child dies, researchers and doctors try that much harder to save others.
Please address this point.

I wonder what they called cancer back in the dark ages.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I wonder what they called cancer back in the dark ages. God's wrath.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I wonder what they called cancer back in the dark ages.

Neoplasm. The word can still be found in the medical term "para-neoplastic syndrome".

That doesn't seem fair, now does it? Using one person, one child's pain to encourage others would generally be considered an evil act, as judged by most ethical systems I've been exposed to.