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The fight to end all fights.

Two of the most "omnipotent" characters EVAR created dish it out one last time.

Who destroys the other?

PM has zero feats.


Stalemate or PM wins.

Originally posted by Enyalus
PM has zero feats.


Stalemate or PM wins.
He has. He created the monitors.
Also, PM viewed the DCU universe like germs. Now would this include The Presence? If so, PM wins. If not Stalemate.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
He has. He created the monitors.
Off-panel. Only alluded to.
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Also, PM viewed the DCU universe like germs. Now would this include The Presence?
The Presence and the PM are one and the same until conclusively proven otherwise.

They seem to be exactly the same upon deeper reflection. However, how cool is it that PR Beyonder would fight in that leisure suit......against PM.....hehehe

Originally posted by Cubicks
how cool is it that PR Beyonder would fight in that leisure suit......against PM.....hehehe

Very cool, indeed.

Originally posted by Enyalus

The Presence and the PM are one and the same until conclusively proven otherwise. Superman beats them both, on panel.

Originally posted by Juntai
Superman beats them both, on panel.
I have no doubt that he would, sadly.

facepalm

I didn't read either story

Originally posted by guy222
I didn't read either story
You didn't read SW1 and 2?

Or you mean you didn't read Supes Beyond?

I kid I kid

Originally posted by guy222
I kid I kid
You gave me a heart attack is what you did.

I was all like, "Guy not read Secret Wars? Does not compute. Initiating self destruct sequence in 10, 9..."

Stalemate..they both have power bigger than the DC and Marvel multiverse..

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i283/ghostofjealousy/mj-capteo.gif

ftw

Originally posted by Enyalus
You gave me a heart attack is what you did.

I was all like, "Guy not read Secret Wars? Does not compute. Initiating self destruct sequence in 10, 9..."

PR Beyonder is the most overrated character ever.

Sure he was powerful, but he was gullible and he was in danger lots of times.

Well, I don't know enough about Primal Monitor to say...but I do know there's nothing overrated about PR Beyonder. Nothing could hurt him, nothing. He only made himself mortal once but could reclaim his power at will. Primal Monitor would literally have to be quintillions of times as powerful as both Marvel and DC realities to challenge Beyonder and even if so.....what's the point?

not enough info to say.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Well, I don't know enough about Primal Monitor to say...but I do know there's nothing overrated about PR Beyonder. Nothing could hurt him, nothing. He only made himself mortal once but could reclaim his power at will. Primal Monitor would literally have to be quintillions of times as powerful as both Marvel and DC realities to challenge Beyonder and even if so.....what's the point?
He saw DCU as a germ.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

PR Beyonder is the most overrated character ever.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Sure he was powerful, but he was gullible and he was in danger lots of times.
The only thing Beyonder was naive about was the desire within humanity,
and the reason for that is because Beyonder was beyond infinite. (literally)
Like it was repeated many times across the arc,
basically he was like God before there was a Genesis,
trying to understand the drop of water that was the infinite Multiverse in comparison.

Also, this was in order to give the story substance,
had Shooter not used some pis through out the arc,
it would've been a boring ass read.

Like:

Page 1 : I appear.
Page 2: I wave my hand.
Page 3: I win.
Page 4: Questionnaires to the writers.

It was impossible for Beyonder to comprehend mortality/desire,
since he was eternal/immortal (always was/is ... no starting point)
& beyond infinite (the sum of everything beyond the Multiverse)

This was the crux of the story, that gave it meaning and a sense of enjoyment to absorb.
Originally posted by xJLxKing

He saw DCU as a germ.
The Marvel Universe of 85' (trans-infinite Multiverse) was a drop of water to Beyonder.

What does that mean?

If PM saw DCU universe as a germ, then I can't even imagine how powerful PM is. If they meant "DCU" as everything including the Presence, Imps(5th dimension), Ultimator....etc, then this dude much be stronger then Beyonder.

He sent a Monitor do check the stories of the DCU Universe. Look what that Monitor did.

germs are like way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way smaller than a drop of water.

ergo primal monitor>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pr beyonder.

Originally posted by leonidas
germs are like way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way way smaller than a drop of water.

ergo primal monitor>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pr beyonder.
Depends! Drop of water, but how much water!!

not sure it matters. there are millions of germs in any drop.

2 water molecules is also a drop

Stalemate.

To be honest based on what I have read these two sound like the same damn character...

It was the DC MULTIVERSE, right? The multiverse was a germ. IF the PRESENCE, dc's GOD is inside the Primal Monitor, then PM takes it.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
PR Beyonder is the most overrated character ever.

facepalm
Originally posted by xJLxKing

What does that mean?
It means Beyonder was septillions of times more infinite,
than the trans-infinite Multiverse/Omniverse of 85' ...

I mean, let's just grasp that for a moment.

The Multiverse/Omniverse of 85 was itself beyond infinite according to Dr Strange,
then we have the Beyonder who was an ocean next to a drop of water,
when comparing the trans-infinite Multiverse/Omniverse to Beyonder.

Besides that,
Beyonder was a supreme being (right there and then Primal Monitor gots nothing on em)

Besides that,
Beyonder was like what the abrahamic God was before Genesis.

Besides that,
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than everything withIN the Multiverse/Omniverse combined.

and lastly and most insanely,
Beyonder was this uber beast,
even in a world where the writer himself lives,
as stated by Jim Shooter himself:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"We (Shooter/Marvel co) introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

swank

Beyonder > Jim Shooter's avatar

Mandrakk, ... eat your heart out.
Originally posted by xJLxKing

If PM saw DCU universe as a germ,
then I can't even imagine how powerful PM is.
If they meant "DCU" as everything including the Presence, Imps(5th dimension),
Ultimator....etc, then this dude much be stronger then Beyonder.
What makes you think that Marvel's TOAA wasn't just as insignificant to Beyonder?

The rest of the mentioned names are meaningless in comparison.
Originally posted by xJLxKing

He sent a Monitor do check the stories of the DCU Universe.
Look what that Monitor did.
Inconsequential.

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

It means Beyonder was septillions of times more infinite,
than the trans-infinite Multiverse/Omniverse of 85' ...

I mean, let's just grasp that for a moment.

The Multiverse/Omniverse of 85 was itself beyond infinite according to Dr Strange,
then we have the Beyonder who was an ocean next to a drop of water,
when comparing the trans-infinite Multiverse/Omniverse to Beyonder.

Besides that,
Beyonder was a supreme being (right there and then Primal Monitor gots nothing on em)

Besides that,
Beyonder was like what the abrahamic God was before Genesis.

Besides that,
Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than everything withIN the Multiverse/Omniverse combined.

and lastly and most insanely,
Beyonder was this uber beast,
even in a world where the writer himself lives,
as stated by Jim Shooter himself:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"We (Shooter/Marvel co) introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

swank

Beyonder > Jim Shooter's avatar

Mandrakk, ... eat your heart out.

What makes you think that Marvel's TOAA wasn't just as insignificant to Beyonder?

The rest of the mentioned names are meaningless in comparison.

Inconsequential.

so are you saying beyonder wins?

Originally posted by Enyalus
I have no doubt that he would, sadly.

facepalm Two sick-nasty right hooks, and the Monitor and Beyonder are toast.

What proof is there? Or perhaps anything that indicates that.


All this is either weaker, or equal to what PM was stated.


Okay, I really didn't like that article or whatever it is. From what it says, Beyonder was in another universe(multi) where he was something like a god! Not God!

any ways, it says there was a Hole, and he saw Earth. Are they talking about "our" Earth, or Comic Earth(where Marvel is) ???

Originally posted by xJLxKing

Okay, I really didn't like that article or whatever it is. From what it says, Beyonder was in another universe(multi) where he was something like a god! Not God! /B]

"...in a sense he was like God before there was a Genesis"

There's no "a" there.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
"...in a sense he was like God before there was a Genesis"

There's no "a" there.
It doesn't matter because a "God" to PM is just a germ.

also, I use "a" for a different reason.

Mr. Master = http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Shooter1.jpg

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mr. Master = http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Shooter1.jpg
Who is that dude?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Who is that dude? Jim Shooter?

Originally posted by Juntai
Jim Shooter?

Originally posted by Mr Master


The only thing Beyonder was naive about was the desire within humanity,
and the reason for that is because Beyonder was beyond infinite. (literally)
Like it was repeated many times across the arc,
basically he was like God before there was a Genesis,
trying to understand the drop of water that was the infinite Multiverse in comparison.

Also, this was in order to give the story substance,
had Shooter not used some pis through out the arc,
it would've been a boring ass read.

Like:

Page 1 : I appear.
Page 2: I wave my hand.
Page 3: I win.
Page 4: Questionnaires to the writers.

It was impossible for Beyonder to comprehend mortality/desire,
since he was eternal/immortal (always was/is ... no starting point)
& beyond infinite (the sum of everything beyond the Multiverse)

This was the crux of the story, that gave it meaning and a sense of enjoyment to absorb.

The Marvel Universe of 85' (trans-infinite Multiverse) was a drop of water to Beyonder.

nice explanation

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
2 water molecules is also a drop
no, a drop of water is a body of water massive enough to fall to earth, 2 molecules is still vapor.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mr. Master = http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_Shooter1.jpg looks like the new mr. spock before the harcut and ear prothstetics.

Yup, for all we know pm might not have a weakness. we just dont know that much about the god.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Okay, I really didn't like that article or whatever it is. From what it says, Beyonder was in another universe(multi) where he was something like a god! Not God!

Pr beyonder wasn't FROM another universe, he WAS another universe. one septillions (or another equally ridiculously high number) of times more massive/more powerful than the established marvel multiverse.

Secret wars established that there were only two realities- the marvel multiverse we're all familiar with, and the infinitely more massive "beyond realm" which was everything outside of it. The "beyond realm" was sentient, took notice of the MU, and took the form of the PR beyonder to explore it. Saying the PR beyonder was a "god" is kind of a misnomer, since the concept of existence or separate thoughts and conciousness outside of itself was a foreign concept until it became aware of the MU. It wasn't a "god" or "supreme being", it was the ONLY being.

Imagine for a second that the entirety of a reality ( for instance, all of DC) thought and acted and felt in unison as one. That's what the PR beyonder was.

When defeated at the end of secret wars II, the beyonder's energies escaped back into the space the beyond realm used to occupy, expanded, and created a universe that was no longer one single unified conciousness- something more along the lines of what the MU was. This became the basis for marvel's "new universe" which no one anywhere remembers anything about.



As pointed out above, there were only two realities at the time. Comic Marvel and the Beyond Realm. "our" earth was not recognized to exist, nor was any by any other outside comic company (DC, dark horse, valiant, etc)

I hope you are right about that. You should know, the Primal Monitor was a bring who was bigger then universes. In this case, DCU's universe. He found a germ in his hearth(or noticed it). He then when to examine it, and sent a probe (which was Mandrakk I believe). Now think of everything in DCU, all that, yet it was a germ to the Primal Monitor.

PR Beyonder universe was bigger than the whole marvel universe too..they both are the same type of being..if you believe everything that was said about the PM being bigger than DC multiverse..u have to believe what was said about beyonder too..that he is a universe bigger than the whole marvel universe...u can't just believe what DC said and throw away whatever marvel says..

Originally posted by Slaanesh
PR Beyonder universe was bigger than the whole marvel universe too..they both are the same type of being..if you believe everything that was said about the PM being bigger than DC multiverse..u have to believe what was said about beyonder too..that he is a universe bigger than the whole marvel universe...u can't just believe what DC said and throw away whatever marvel says..
Of course I will take it as fact, but PM viewed them as Germs!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Of course I will take it as fact, but PM viewed them as Germs!
OMG!! No way!?!

...

Originally posted by Enyalus
OMG!! No way!?!

...
Har..har
Like I said, PM can wins, lose, or stalemate. It all depends on how you interpret what was said

Germs..drop of water..basically..they are the same..the writer is trying to say that this two are being bigger than marvel or dc universe and they are more powerful than anything in those universe..at best this is a stalemate..

PM view DC's "God" as a germ. Did Beyonder view TOAA like that.

What is bigger, a germ to a human, or a drop of water to an ocean? mmm

Originally posted by NemeBro
What is bigger, a germ to a human, or a drop of water to an ocean? mmm
All depends. How big is the ocean and the Human.

Also, PM is not a Human!!!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
PM view DC's "God" as a germ. Did Beyonder view TOAA like that.

where did it says that PM view DC's "God" as a germ??

Originally posted by Slaanesh
where did it says that PM view DC's "God" as a germ??
That's why I said interpretation. They way I see it. PM noticed a germ in his heart. That germ was the DCU universe(s). Who is in the DCU?
Spectre, The Presence, Superman, Stories, Heroes, Villian...etc.

I did not realise the Presence was actually located within DC.

Originally posted by NemeBro
I did not realise the Presence was actually located within DC.
DCU, Yes.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's why I said interpretation. They way I see it. PM noticed a germ in his heart. That germ was the DCU universe(s). Who is in the DCU?
Spectre, The Presence, Superman, Stories, Heroes, Villian...etc.

well..the same can be said for Beyonder rite..he see the marvel universe as a drop of water..that should include everyone in it..

Originally posted by Slaanesh
well..the same can be said for Beyonder rite..he see the marvel universe as a drop of water..that should include everyone in it..

Again comes down to what you think is bigger, and stronger. A germ to a Monitor(no idea how he looks like), or the drop of water.

A germ to a human or a drop of water in an ocean.

I think a drop of water to an ocean is smaller in comparison, but I'm no expert.

The only reason why I choose A stalemate, or Win for PM is because he views a Supreme being as a Germ including everything that Supreme being created.

This is stupid, tbh.

Originally posted by Mindset
This is stupid, tbh.
Anything this high in power is stupid. There is no clear winner, just you viewpoint.

Originally posted by Mindset
This is stupid, tbh.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Like I said, PM can wins, lose, or stalemate.
...Yeah, that pretty much covers all the options in a versus fight. Nice analysis.

Originally posted by Enyalus
...Yeah, that pretty much covers all the options in a versus fight. Nice analysis.

Originally posted by Enyalus
...Yeah, that pretty much covers all the options in a versus fight. Nice analysis.

Checkmate.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
PM view DC's "God" as a germ. Did Beyonder view TOAA like that.

BS. He didn't view DC's God as a germ where was this stated? I saw nothing ever that said the Presence was a germ to the PM

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
BS. He didn't view DC's God as a germ where was this stated? I saw nothing ever that said the Presence was a germ to the PM

True never happened.

Btw Beyonder was like God before genesis, that means he can not be compared in the same league as him, he is just the only 1 who is the closest thing to compare him to, Classic Beyonder was that powerful.

Originally posted by Enyalus
...Yeah, that pretty much covers all the options in a versus fight. Nice analysis.
Yeah!


Then go read it!!!
You missed it.
Go check where CM, and Superman start reading that book with Infinite pages in the same space(ahah). It explains that the Monitor noticed a germ in his heart. That Germ was DCU, it even says that germ contained inside it Villians, Superheroes, Stories, death, and live. He sent a Monitor/Probe to check it out. Later on it split into two...etc.


The only thing that can discredit what I say is that what is state later on. It says that the "germ", which is DCU, is growing which is why the P-Monitor sent a Probe in there. Because it had no defense against it.


Did you read it?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah!


Then go read it!!!
You missed it.
Go check where CM, and Superman start reading that book with Infinite pages in the same space(ahah). It explains that the Monitor noticed a germ in his heart. That Germ was DCU, it even says that germ contained inside it Villians, Superheroes, Stories, death, and live. He sent a Monitor/Probe to check it out. Later on it split into two...etc.


The only thing that can discredit what I say is that what is state later on. It says that the "germ", which is DCU, is growing which is why the P-Monitor sent a Probe in there. Because it had no defense against it.


Did you read it?

Actually your own works discredit what you say. It stated nowhere that the germ is referencing the Presence and he is including in that statement. The Presence isn't apart of nor stated to be apart of the DCU the PM was talking about. Your second statement further proves that point. To me the PM is much like the Presence just a different take and look.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Actually your own works discredit what you say. It stated nowhere that the germ is referencing the Presence and he is including in that statement. The Presence isn't apart of nor stated to be apart of the DCU the PM was talking about. Your second statement further proves that point. To me the PM is much like the Presence just a different take and look.
PM and the Presence aren't the same.

Also, what do you mean the presence isn't part of DCU? Of course he is! If he isn't, then he lives in the void.

The Presence is everything in the dcu multiverse. so yes he is the dcu. PM encompassed more than that.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
The Presence is everything in the dcu multiverse. so yes he is the dcu. PM encompassed more than that.
All of DCU was a germ to him.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
All of DCU was a germ to him.

that's like the spectre being nothing to the great evil beast. his fingernail was a lot bigger!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
PM and the Presence aren't the same.
Prove it or be quiet.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Prove it or be quiet.
This is just theory but whatever
"the Presence" is the creator of all this in DCU. That was proven when Spectre went to see how "the Presence" is and tried to enter heaven. When he met him, he was eating Micheal. So we realized he was in DCU(right). Not only that but we realized he was just bigger then DCU :P.

Finally, why would the creator not notice the germ even though he created it? It doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
This is just theory but whatever
I know it is. And you're presenting it as fact. So stop it.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Finally, why would the creator not notice the germ even though he created it? It doesn't make sense.
Because The Presence did not create the DCU. Either 1) The Source did. Or 2) Synnar did. Depending on which cosmogony you want to believe.

Depending on how you interpret it.



Where was it stated ?
When Spectre met the Presense, he said that everything in DC was his to play with because he created them; Something like that

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Where was it stated ?
When Spectre met the Presense, he said that everything in DC was his to play with because he created them; Something like that
Amongst other places, JK4W #1 and Holy War #5, IIRC.

Originally posted by Mr Master
facepalm

and lastly and most insanely,
Beyonder was this uber beast,
even in a world where the writer himself lives,
as stated by Jim Shooter himself:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"We (Shooter/Marvel co) introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"

swank

Beyonder > Jim Shooter's avatar

Mandrakk, ... eat your heart out.

Inconsequential.

Assuming that I'm interpreting what you said correctly (which I may very well not be)

This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????

...You've never read any Mxy...? A DC character.

Except Mxy is real

Originally posted by Enyalus
Amongst other places, JK4W #1 and Holy War #5, IIRC. So you going to ignore the the other part??


I hate that crap. How stupid can they get?? Did they think it would sell??

Originally posted by iceman24567
Except Mxy is real
I've sodomized Bat-mite before. Never come across Mxy, though.























Yes, I realize the pun there.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Assuming that I'm interpreting what you said correctly (which I may very well not be)

This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????
Whoa, that is a lot of capitals.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I've sodomized Bat-mite before. Never come across Mxy, though.























Yes, I realize the pun there. You and your Puns Phantom face would be proud if he wasn't banned he would give you a bj

Originally posted by iceman24567
You and your Puns Phantom face would be proud if he wasn't banned he would give you a bj
I've already forced him to give me one in the past. Don't see why now would be anything special.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I've already forced him to give me one in the past. Don't see why now would be anything special. Touche little guy touche

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Assuming that I'm interpreting what you said correctly (which I may very well not be)
After I read the rest of your post,
I noticed you were interpreting what I stated incorrectly.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

This is INCREDIBLY stupid, and in a way it shows that marvel writers are being detached with reality. To say that the Beyonder is so powerful that he is very powerful even in OUR world is just insane; he's an IMAGINARY character invented in order to make money. An IMAGINARY character!!! The Beyonder does NOT exist, and is WEAKER THAN A UNICELLUAR ORGANISM, BECAUSE UNICELLUAR ORGANISMS ACUTALLY EXIST!!!! He had discovered us? How can a drawing on a comic book panel discover us????


In Marvel, the writer/artist is TOAA (the One Above All)
which is basically the true Supreme Being/God
creator of everything that takes place in the Marvel Universe (Omniverse)
This character is represented On Panel by an obvious fictional illustration,
although obviously not real,
in Marvel, it still represents the real human beings making the comic.

That's a fact, and can't be debated.

So, this means, at the time,
Jim Shooter (Editor in-Chief of Marvel, Writer/Creator of Secret Wars I-II & Beyonder)
and Al Milgrom (the artist that penciled Secret Wars I-II)
were TOAA!

Now, although they (Shooter/Milgrom) never appeared on panel,
we know they were TOAA, because well ... that's what TOAA is in Marvel.

So, when Shooter says "he discovered us"
he really means himself/Milgrom withIN the fictional Marvel Universe that only exists in comics,
and that self is TOAA. (represented by an illustrated Avatar)


Now, you're probably asking,
'if TOAA is the Supreme creator of everything withIN the Marvel Universe,
how can Beyonder be above that?'

Simple ...

Beyonder was NOT from the Marvel Universe,
and in fact, he was completely disconnected from it.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/761421_beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg

Now, obviously, this is based on a fictional concept,
because duh, we know in the real world it was Shooter who created Beyonder,
but withIN the reality of Marvel comics,
Beyonder was NOT created by Shooter's avatar (TOAA),
and instead, Beyonder always was, & had no beginning (like the abrahamic God)
and in fact, as Shooter stated, was an ocean,
while TOAA (Shooter/Milgrom) and the entire Marvelverse was a drop of water in comparison.

However it was (following the thought of marvel Comics) TOAA that depowered Beyonder.

Originally posted by Utrigita

However it was (following the thought of marvel Comics)

TOAA that depowered Beyonder.
Not exactly,
it was Tom De Falco, who isn't a writer or artist.
De Falco proceeded Shooter as Editor in Chief,
and only he had the power to retcon Beyonder.

Of course, De Falco gave Englehart (writer) the go ahead to make the story (retcon)

But ... no writer can retcon a character on his own accord.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Not exactly,
it was Tom De Falco, who isn't a writer or artist.
De Falco proceeded Shooter as Editor in Chief,
and only he had the power to retcon Beyonder.

Of course, De Falco gave Englehart (writer) the go ahead to make the story (retcon)

But ... no writer can retcon a character on his own accord.

What the Editor decided is off no concern in the marvel cosmic hierarchy, where it is the Writer in this case Englehart, and only the writer that is being shown as the supreme being, so in Marvel Cosmology it was still TOAA (in the form of the writer) that depowered Beyonder which places TOAA above Beyonder. What was decided in the real world is in no way illustrated in Marvel as the Editor has never been shown as the Supreme Being.

On top of this I have a entirely different understanding of the "us" that Jim Shooter mentioned in his interview but nevermind.

Originally posted by Utrigita

What the Editor decided is off no concern in the marvel cosmic hierarchy, where it is the Writer in this case Englehart, and only the writer that is being shown as the supreme being, so in Marvel Cosmology it was still TOAA (in the form of the writer) that depowered Beyonder which places TOAA above Beyonder. What was decided in the real world is in no way illustrated in Marvel as the Editor has never been shown as the Supreme Being.
Believe what you wish.

Bottom line though:

Without De Falco's sole decision,
Englehart couldn't do shit to Beyonder's historical data.

As for your hierarchy reference,
Jim Shooter was not only the writer, but the Editor in Chief as well,
superseding any writer/artist, this is why NO writer could change Shooter's creation.

This is why again, and logically so,
ONLY De Falco could make that call to retcon Beyonder.

Englehart was only giving the right to make up the story.

But it was De Falco's power that made it possible,
not TOAA (Englehart)

TOAA took orders, and TOAA followed those orders.
(that a fact)
Originally posted by Utrigita

On top of this
I have a entirely different understanding of the "us"
that Jim Shooter mentioned in his interview but nevermind.
Well if that isn't clear enough english good friend,
I don't know what to tell ya.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Believe what you wish.

Bottom line though:

Without De Falco's sole decision,
Englehart couldn't do shit to Beyonder's historical data.

As for your hierarchy reference,
Jim Shooter was not only the writer, but the Editor in Chief as well,
superseding any writer/artist, this is why NO writer could change Shooter's creation.

This is why again, and logically so,
ONLY De Falco could make that call to retcon Beyonder.

Englehart was only giving the right to make up the story.

But it was De Falco's power that made it possible,
not TOAA (Englehart)

TOAA took orders, and TOAA followed those orders.
(that a fact)

I always choose to do that

I'm not denying that just stating that in the actual marvel universe that has absolutely no relevance to what Toaa did.

Yes Jim Shooter was Writer/Editor does that make him into some unique version of Toaa? Not at all, since Editor in the marvel Hierarchy means nothing only Writer. In the real world it is true that Jim Shooter was placed in a extremly well placed situation and was indeed above the normal Writer but only in the Real World, nothing suggest otherwise in the comics.

According to Englehart himself he was asked by De Falco not ordered, and what De Falco did ore didn't do is irrelevant to this discussion since the Editor in Chief of marvel has never been shown in the marvel universe as being the Supreme Being.

And how exactly do you plan on show that Fact in the comics? Which is ultimately what we base oure judgement upon.

But agree to disagree Friend? we have both stated oure opinions

As for the "US" comment I see it more as a reference to the human race then to Jim Shooter as the Supreme Being since I'm not under the impression that it was the perception of the writers in the 80's.

Btw we have been throwing rocks at the wrong person master



http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=5785

Originally posted by Utrigita

I'm not denying that
just stating that in the actual marvel universe that has absolutely no relevance to what Toaa did.
How can it have no relevance,
when it was De Falco''s power/decision that changed Beyonder's history?

Are you playing with me Ut? hm
Originally posted by Utrigita

Yes Jim Shooter was Writer/Editor does that make him into some unique version of Toaa? Not at all, since Editor in the marvel Hierarchy means nothing only Writer.

In the real world it is true that Jim Shooter was placed in a extremly well placed situation and was indeed above the normal Writer but only in the Real World, nothing suggest otherwise in the comics.
I love ya Ut, but you're very wrong.

The writer can do nothing, without the Editors' decisions.

In comics, or in the real world.
Originally posted by Utrigita

According to Englehart himself he was asked by De Falco not ordered,

and what De Falco did ore didn't do is irrelevant to this discussion
since the Editor in Chief of marvel
has never been shown in the marvel universe as being the Supreme Being.
Really? ... Editor's are irrelevant in the Marvel Universe?

Hmm ... Here's Editor's Gruenwald & Mackie telling Byrne (writer) what to include on panel.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1807221_TOAA.jpg

Yea sure, a writer can have an opinion, but it's the Editor's that have the final say.

swank
Originally posted by Utrigita

And how exactly do you plan on show that Fact in the comics?
Which is ultimately what we base oure judgement upon.
I just did, look at official Marvel comic on panel scan above.
Originally posted by Utrigita

As for the "US" comment I see it more as a reference to the human race then to Jim Shooter as the Supreme Being since I'm not under the impression that it was the perception of the writers in the 80's.
Cool speculation.

I'll stick to the simple straight forward english.
Originally posted by Utrigita

Btw we have been throwing rocks at the wrong person master

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=5785
I could care less what CBR forums exposes,
imo, they're running a racket on fools over there.

Anyhow,
that's 100% bull shit
since Tom De Falco was the Editor in Chief between 87' & 94'

Please, never again present to me CBR forums as a means of proof.

That's the same site that claimed: Brevroort stated Marvel: The End was non-canon.

This thread is full of laughs.

Originally posted by Galan007
This thread is full of laughs.

Glad to entertain you

Originally posted by Utrigita
Glad to entertain you Not you, so much... But I still like you, though.

Originally posted by Galan007

This thread is full of laughs.
And a troll or two. shifty

Not you so much either, but I still like you as well.

It's a great pont though.... The TOAA which is the writer/artist did depower the Beyonder so clearly he is above the beyonder right? There can't be a double standard in that regard.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

It's a great pont though.... The TOAA which is the writer/artist did depower the Beyonder
so clearly he is above the beyonder right?
There can't be a double standard in that regard.
TOAA (writer Englehart) was issued a duty by the Editor in Chief Tom De Falco,
to make up a story where the Beyonder gets retconned,
so TOAA obeyed, and wrote the Beyonder a new history.

The key is,
without the Editor in Chief's sole decision/consent,
TOAA (Englehart) was powerless to do anything to Beyonder's history.

So yea, TOAA did depower Beyonder,
but only after the Editor in Chief gave em the power/right to do it.

I would put it like this:

pre-retcon Beyonder > TOAA
post-retcon Beyonder < TOAA

Yet but by the same token the TOAA created the beyonder and thus that right there kinda exhibits he's above him as well. My point is, you like to talk about how the artist/writer is the TOAA for Marvel. So, that same logic applies to the Beyonder as TOAA created the Beyonder just like it created Celestials, Thanos etc etc. I don't agree that just because somebody wasn't the editor and chief along with writer etc that somehow diminishes his role in the retcon and being above the Beyonder. So, if there was a person like Shooter who decdied to do the retcon to the Beyonder that somehow would be more valid that it being an order from an editor and chief to a writer... That is silly. TOAA is the TOAA period. The Beyonder as you've argued was a supreme being and thus equal to the TOAA and Thanos with the Heart etc etc. Now your saying the Beyonder before Retcon was above the TOAA... come on now Masters that is silly and hipocritical considering your past statements about Supreme beings and how the writer artist is TOAA for Marvel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And a troll or two. shifty

Not you so much either, but I still like you as well. Is it trolling to call a laughable post, laughable? I prefer not to think so.

Originally posted by Galan007

Is it trolling to call a laughable post, laughable? I prefer not to think so.
You can laugh at whatever you like. who (no offense, but not me at-least)

I'm sure whoever you're laughing at doesn't think it's funny.
(then again, anything Beyonder related tickles you the wrong way)

But it is trolling to enter a thread just to devalue what others may feel is an interesting debate.

That aside,
I always tell posters if they have a problem with what takes place on panel,
or how Marvel conveys their ideas,
or how Marvel controls their company,
they should take the initiative and email/write to Marvel & complain.

That also aside,
I gots no grudges with you if that's where you're going,
you can laugh/hate all you want, whatever.
I'm only here to debate comics, Marvel preferably.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Yet but by the same token the TOAA created the beyonder and thus that right there kinda exhibits he's above him as well. My point is, you like to talk about how the artist/writer is the TOAA for Marvel. So, that same logic applies to the Beyonder as TOAA created the Beyonder just like it created Celestials, Thanos etc etc.
Sorry good friend, TOAA did not create the Beyonder.

TOAA used the Infinity Being to create the Marvel Universe. (a separate creation)

The Beyonder was always there, (in the Beyond Realm) and had no beginning.

The Marvel Universe and the Beyond Realm were two completely disconnected Realities.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I don't agree that just because somebody wasn't the editor and chief along with writer etc that somehow diminishes his role in the retcon and being above the Beyonder. So, if there was a person like Shooter who decdied to do the retcon to the Beyonder that somehow would be more valid that it being an order from an editor and chief to a writer... That is silly. TOAA is the TOAA period. The Beyonder as you've argued was a supreme being and thus equal to the TOAA and Thanos with the Heart etc etc. Now your saying the Beyonder before Retcon was above the TOAA... come on now Masters that is silly and hipocritical considering your past statements about Supreme beings and how the writer artist is TOAA for Marvel.
You'll have to call/email or write to Jim Shooter on this one,
cause he's the one that conveyed that idea:

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1799763_jim2mj1.jpg

"We (Shooter/Marvel co) introduced the Beyonder
and established
that he was studying these beings - us - he had discovered"


Also, I gave my reasons why I sorta changed my mind in this thread,
it's in the previous page, I rather you go through them,
then reply, cause I don't wanna repeat myself.

Neither PR Beyonder or PM shud even be "more powerful" than the writer as they are just both fictional characters. O_O best to stick to on panel feats and the caliber of the cosmic beings they've faced.

IMO, this thread is stupid, it's like comparing infinity vs infinity and who is a bigger number between the two. -_-

Originally posted by Mindset
This is stupid, tbh.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Neither PR Beyonder or PM shud even be "more powerful" than the writer as they are just both fictional characters. O_O best to stick to on panel feats and the caliber of the cosmic beings they've faced.
Well, to be precise,
I for one was never talking about Beyonder vs a real person,
I was referring to Shooter's avatar,
which is a fictional illustration representing him on panel.
(never actually appeared on panel by the way, but other writers/artists have)
This is what's known as TOAA.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210

IMO, this thread is stupid, it's like comparing infinity vs infinity
and who is a bigger number between the two. -_-
Imo, from the little I know about this PM,
The Primal Monitor is akin to what Beyonder was in his pre-retcon era.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can laugh at whatever you like. who (no offense, but not me at-least)

I'm sure whoever you're laughing at doesn't think it's funny.
(then again, anything Beyonder related tickles you the wrong way)

But it is trolling to enter a thread just to devalue what others may feel is an interesting debate.

That aside,
I always tell posters if they have a problem with what takes place on panel,
or how Marvel conveys their ideas,
or how Marvel controls their company,
they should take the initiative and email/write to Marvel & complain.

That also aside,
I gots no grudges with you if that's where you're going,
you can laugh/hate all you want, whatever.
I'm only here to debate comics, Marvel preferably.

I don't recall ever having mentioned you. mmm

That aside, writing/emailing a comic company because you disagree with something they published, or somesuch = /fail.

Originally posted by Galan007
I don't recall ever having mentioned you. mmm

That aside, writing/emailing a comic company because you disagree with something they published, or somesuch = /fail.

Ya know Galan it looks far worse IMO when you don't own up to what you say and what you mean. Others and myself have seen you indirectly make comments towards Mr. Masters so many times it's not even funny. Then when called upon it you'll say well I didn't specifically mention you. Clearly, your referring to him and it just makes you look bad when you can't even own up to it. Most threads Mr. Masters post in you'll make some sarcastic comment directed at him and when called on it go... Oooo well I didn't directly say your name... That is just lame and silly. If somebody did that to you all the time I can promise you troll would be a word you used to describe equivalent actions as you do. Obviously, this battle has been going on longer then I've been a part of this site. That's cool not everybody can get along or be expected to. However, call it how it is and don't hide behind some bs to try and save face.

Now, Mr. Masters... a couple of questions....

1. Who published Secret Wars?
2. If shooter was still present and in the same position when the Beyonder was Retconned then would that have made it more valid for you being that it wasn't "ordered" from the Editor in Chief
3. The marvel company produces ALL characters within it's pages correct?

The point in all the questions is really trying to figure out how you can think the Beyonder is really outside of Marvel. It was produced and published by Marvel. The same criteria you always use when saying TOAA wrote this and that also applies to Beyonder. He didn't write his own comic it was produced by Marvel and thus TOAA. Just because Shooter and is various positions weren't there matters not. TOAA retconned the beyonder plain and simple. It doesn't matter who ordered what all that matters is he was retconned by TOAA.

Originally posted by Mr Master


In Marvel, the writer/artist is TOAA (the One Above All)
which is basically the true Supreme Being/God
creator of everything that takes place in the Marvel Universe (Omniverse)
This character is represented On Panel by an obvious fictional illustration,
although obviously not real,
in Marvel, it still represents the real human beings making the comic.

That's a fact, and can't be debated.

So, this means, at the time,
Jim Shooter (Editor in-Chief of Marvel, Writer/Creator of Secret Wars I-II & Beyonder)
and Al Milgrom (the artist that penciled Secret Wars I-II)
were TOAA!

Now, although they (Shooter/Milgrom) never appeared on panel,
we know they were TOAA, because well ... that's what TOAA is in Marvel.

So, when Shooter says "he discovered us"
he really means himself/Milgrom withIN the fictional Marvel Universe that only exists in comics,
and that self is TOAA. (represented by an illustrated Avatar)


Now, you're probably asking,
'if TOAA is the Supreme creator of everything withIN the Marvel Universe,
how can Beyonder be above that?'

Simple ...

Beyonder was NOT from the Marvel Universe,
and in fact, he was completely disconnected from it.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/761421_beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg

Now, obviously, this is based on a fictional concept,
because duh, we know in the real world it was Shooter who created Beyonder,
but withIN the reality of Marvel comics,
Beyonder was NOT created by Shooter's avatar (TOAA),
and instead, Beyonder always was, & had no beginning (like the abrahamic God)
and in fact, as Shooter stated, was an ocean,
while TOAA (Shooter/Milgrom) and the entire Marvelverse was a drop of water in comparison.

So:

TOAA = Writer's avatar (which I knew)

But apparently, the Beyonder isn't within Marvel and thus wasn't created by TOAA, but was created by Jim Shooter, even though TOAA is supposed to be Jim Shooter.

I understand the concept, but it's a stupid one: if TOAA = Writer, then that means that TOAA/Writer DID create the Beyonder; otherwise who else created the Beyonder? DC??? Marvel Comics created the Secret Wars comic, they wrote it, they DECIDED what the Beyonder SAID and DID, and then they published it and let the money come in. To say that the Beyonder was beyond the power of TOAA is to say that a drawing is beyond the guy that drew it. If I were to draw a picture of Superman, could the drawing overpower me???

Jim shooter WROTE the Secret Wars, so he DECIDED what the Beyonder does. If TOAA and Beyonder were to battle, then Jim Shooter would just make it so that the Beyonder gets killed by Squirrel girl throwing an acorn at him.

So yes, TOAA is but an avatar and is different/less powerful than Jim Shooter, and the Marvel Multiverse =/= everything that Marvel Comics makes (otherwise the beyond realm was made by who...McDonalds?). It makes sense...sort of.

Same thing with Mxy; him coming out of the pages and messing with the narrator's words? WTF? It's the narrator that DECIDED that Mxy would do that...

Originally posted by Mr Master
TOAA (writer Englehart) was issued a duty by the Editor in Chief Tom De Falco,
to make up a story where the Beyonder gets retconned,
so TOAA obeyed, and wrote the Beyonder a new history.

The key is,
without the Editor in Chief's sole decision/consent,
TOAA (Englehart) was powerless to do anything to Beyonder's history.

So yea, TOAA did depower Beyonder,
but only after the Editor in Chief gave em the power/right to do it.

I would put it like this:

pre-retcon Beyonder > TOAA
post-retcon Beyonder < TOAA

So why is TOAA a "supreme being" and "Omnipotent"? Niether he/she/it/they nor Beyonder is omnipotent, because the Beyonder is fallible and TOAA is (according to you) < Beyonder.

So the Editor in Chief is THE supreme being.

Wait...no, because he still has to follow federal law, so the government is the "supreme being".

So Obama is the supreme being of Marvel!!!!!

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ya know Galan it looks far worse IMO when you don't own up to what you say and what you mean. Others and myself have seen you indirectly make comments towards Mr. Masters so many times it's not even funny. Then when called upon it you'll say well I didn't specifically mention you. Clearly, your referring to him and it just makes you look bad when you can't even own up to it. Most threads Mr. Masters post in you'll make some sarcastic comment directed at him and when called on it go... Oooo well I didn't directly say your name... That is just lame and silly. If somebody did that to you all the time I can promise you troll would be a word you used to describe equivalent actions as you do. Obviously, this battle has been going on longer then I've been a part of this site. That's cool not everybody can get along or be expected to. However, call it how it is and don't hide behind some bs to try and save face. Aww I'm sorry. I didn't mean to upset you, buddy.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You can laugh at whatever you like. who (no offense, but not me at-least)

I'm sure whoever you're laughing at doesn't think it's funny.
(then again, anything Beyonder related tickles you the wrong way)

But it is trolling to enter a thread just to devalue what others may feel is an interesting debate.

That aside,
I always tell posters if they have a problem with what takes place on panel,
or how Marvel conveys their ideas,
or how Marvel controls their company,
they should take the initiative and email/write to Marvel & complain.

That also aside,
I gots no grudges with you if that's where you're going,
you can laugh/hate all you want, whatever.
I'm only here to debate comics, Marvel preferably.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So:

TOAA = Writer's avatar (which I knew)

But apparently, the Beyonder isn't within Marvel and thus wasn't created by TOAA, but was created by Jim Shooter, even though TOAA is supposed to be Jim Shooter.
No, and Mr. Master's already explained it. In plain language,

Jim Shooter created The Beyonder. We, in the real world, know this. Jim Shooter's avatar within Marvel Comics, The One Above All, did not. Because in the story, the Beyonder came from beyond the infinite Marvel Universe.



Get it?

Originally posted by Enyalus


Because The Presence did not create the DCU. Either 1) The Source did. Or 2) Synnar did. Depending on which cosmogony you want to believe.
I don't think anyone of them actually made it.

In fact, Superman is the one who created the Multiverse. That's according to FC; Near the end

Originally posted by xJLxKing
In fact, Superman is the one who created the Multiverse. That's according to FC; Near the end
Can you post the scan or give me an issue #?

Sounds like BS to me. Krona is the one who basically 'created' the multiverse.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Can you post the scan or give me an issue #?

Sounds like BS to me. Krona is the one who basically 'created' the multiverse.
I don't think I am allowed to post, but I will PM with the scan! and everything. okay?

can someone please make a dc cosmology list/thread?

since i've been on kmc i've heard like 6 beings being credited for the creation of dc, and then you have all the 4th + dimensional entities.....

imo it would shorten a lot of these circumlocutory debates.

I don't think it was ever really directly stated who created the universe. Not from what I've read. I have seen a scan where Superman creates(a theory only). Or the Presence saying that Michael and other being are his toys because he created them. Then you got what Eny said.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I don't think I am allowed to post, but I will PM with the scan! and everything. okay?

Okay. Well, I'll post what you gave me:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5516/tmc018fcannotated07.jpg

I have no idea where its from or who wrote that, but even if it is official, it says, 'it seems Morrison is having Superman as the creator of his own universe...Superman plays God in a similar pose to the one who created the universe...'

Never says the DCU or the DC Multiverse. Says his own universe.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Or the Presence saying that Michael and other being are his toys because he created them. Then you got what Eny said.
No, that was Yahweh who said that.

And Yahweh is not The Presence.

Who is greater? Yahwe or The Presence?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Okay. Well, I'll post what you gave me:

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5516/tmc018fcannotated07.jpg

I have no idea where its from or who wrote that, but even if it is official, it says, 'it seems Morrison is having Superman as the creator of his own universe...Superman plays God in a similar pose to the one who created the universe...'

Never says the DCU or the DC Multiverse. Says his own universe.


Oh, but I like the idea. It does sat the hand that Krona saw, so we know it's DCU.


So who is the presence

EDIT: here is the cover http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2541/tmc000cover.th.jpg

Originally posted by Forever Nick
Who is greater? Yahwe or The Presence?
The Presence is. Yahweh admitted to being shaped by outside forces and displayed a lack of omniscience. He's also not involved with the DCU at all anymore.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Oh, but I like the idea. It does sat the hand that Krona saw, so we know it's DCU.
No, we don't "know" its the DCU. Because it says 'his' implied his own, not DCU, and 'universe' which is singular, instead of the standard DC multiverse.

Originally posted by Enyalus


No, we don't "know" its the DCU. Because it says 'his' implied his own, not DCU, and 'universe' which is singular, instead of the standard DC multiverse.
I think you missed my point.

Didn't someone (i forgot who) went to the begging of time to she how the Universe started. Because of what he did, there multiverse, or infinite parallel universe were created. Originally, there was only one universe. Right?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I think you missed my point.

Didn't someone (i forgot who) went to the begging of time to she how the Universe started. Because of what he did, there multiverse, or infinite parallel universe were created. Originally, there was only one universe. Right?

Right. Krona. I already said that.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Right. Krona. I already said that.
I am confused.
At first there was one universe. Because of what Krona did, multiply/infinite universes were created. Although, we did see a hand with one universe. Didn't Superman do that?? He created "one" universe??

It would fit with the quote "everything comes from Superman"

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am confused.
At first there was one universe. Because of what Krona did, multiply/infinite universes were created. Although, we did see a hand with one universe. Didn't Superman do that?? He created "one" universe??
No. That was was The Source/God that did that.

Superman and Krypton itself weren't born yet.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No. That was was The Source/God that did that.

Superman and Krypton itself weren't born yet.
Lol true!! BUT wouldn't it technically be called a paradox, or something like that.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Lol true!! BUT wouldn't it technically be called a paradox, or something like that.
Dude, again, I haven't read that magazine you posted from. Its probably some random guy's opinion. It definitely isn't Morrison's, and it really isn't supported by FC itself.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Dude, again, I haven't read that magazine you posted from. Its probably some random guy's opinion. It definitely isn't Morrison's, and it really isn't supported by FC itself.

Originally posted by Forever Nick
Who is greater? Yahwe or The Presence?

They are the same being, some people don't understand the whole concept in Lucifer's comic. It was suppose to be Supermans hand Krona saw at the beginning talked about in FC. There is other dimensions outside the mutliverse like what was the Fourth World until The Source decided to make the Fifth World

Apparently they're the same being when they suit a pro-DC argument and not the same being when they hurt one.


I argued for them being the same being and was told by multiple people, with evidence, why they were not.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Apparently they're the same being when they suit a pro-DC argument and not the same being when they hurt one.


I argued for them being the same being and was told by multiple people, with evidence, why they were not.

Never seen it hurt one, never seen any evidence to they weren't, we know what The Voice is and The Source seems to be related to God as well (or is him).

We can never conclude if The Presence and Yahweh were one and the same, since no further evidence will ever be provided since Yahweh has left his role in Vertigoverse and passed it down to Elaine.

Unless a intercompany tie-in between Vertigo's Elaine and DC's The Presence (and their relation) ever come to fruition, we may never know.

Originally posted by Galan007
Aww I'm sorry. I didn't mean to upset you, buddy.

Upset me lol. Hardly. Don't get me wrong man your cool and a valuable member of this site. My point is, if it's a spade call it a spade. Even though I think Philo is a douche he calls it as it is

What if it's a spade?

Originally posted by Mindset
What if it's a spade?

haha good call man . I knew I could count on you

Originally posted by kevdude
They are the same being, some people don't understand the whole concept in Lucifer's comic. It was suppose to be Supermans hand Krona saw at the beginning talked about in FC. There is other dimensions outside the mutliverse like what was the Fourth World until The Source decided to make the Fifth World
Guess I am not the only one

Originally posted by Enyalus
Apparently they're the same being when they suit a pro-DC argument and not the same being when they hurt one.


I argued for them being the same being and was told by multiple people, with evidence, why they were not. This is correct. It changes depending on what the vs. thread is about.

Originally posted by kevdude
Never seen it hurt one, never seen any evidence to they weren't, we know what The Voice is and The Source seems to be related to God as well (or is him).
If Yahweh is The Presence and The Presence is the Primal Monitor, then PR Beyonder wins this hands down.




But, Yahweh is not The Presence. Yahweh has nothing to do with Vertigo or the DCU anymore, while The Presence is still very much in the picture until Morrison decides to **** that up, too.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Presence is. Yahweh admitted to being shaped by outside forces and displayed a lack of omniscience. He's also not involved with the DCU at all anymore. Not really true The presence has also shown that he isn't all powerful. As far as comic god's they have both been hinted to have flaws like possible death.

Originally posted by kgkg
Not really true The presence has also shown that he isn't all powerful. As far as comic god's they have both been hinted to have flaws like possible death.
Where was it shown that The Presence isn't powerful?
He had like one showing, and that was in the form of Jim Corrigan's father eating Michael, and showing how insignificant the power of Spectre is to him.


And no, Yahweh and The Presence are NOT the same.
Yahweh specifically said that he was shaped by outside forces. The Presence wasn't, unless re-verified.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Where was it shown that The Presence isn't powerful?
He had like one showing, and that was in the form of Jim Corrigan's father eating Michael, and showing how insignificant the power of Spectre is to him.
He said isn't 'all powerful', not that he isn't powerful. He's probably referring to Starlin's Holy War and Synnar's monologue.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
And no, Yahweh and The Presence are NOT the same.
Yahweh specifically said that he was shaped by outside forces. The Presence wasn't, unless re-verified.
I agree.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Where was it shown that The Presence isn't powerful?
He had like one showing, and that was in the form of Jim Corrigan's father eating Michael, and showing how insignificant the power of Spectre is to him.


And no, Yahweh and The Presence are NOT the same.
Yahweh specifically said that he was shaped by outside forces. The Presence wasn't, unless re-verified. The Carnivore overhauled the Presence , Radiant/spectre hinted out that the Presence<god> can possible die and there has been few time were people have challenged him and nearly won ie GEB , Synnar etc


As for Yahweh and Presence they were the same people as admitted by the staff at DC many times I don't know why I have to keep arguing this. Most of the vertigo Characters came from DCU when there was no vertigo and those characters are still shown in Vertigo. Also writers have themselves said that Vertigo and DCU in parts linked.

It's just that Vertigo started adding there own stuff which is now very different from Mainstream DCU.

Originally posted by kgkg
The Carnivore overhauled the Presence
However only partially, since the Female aspect of The Presence was still intact with the 3 Earth Born Angels.


I haven't read anything about that.

But if what you say is true, then PR beyonder wins.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
However only partially, since the Female aspect of The Presence was still intact with the 3 Earth Born Angels. Even than it shouldn't happen to "GOD". Like in my previous post I shown few things that shouldn't happen to a true supreme "GOD" maybe the PM is truly > the presence.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer I haven't read anything about that. But if what you say is true, then PR beyonder wins. At least that how it was before but many things have changed in Vertigo and DCU with the Crisis , Elaine etc it's almost impossible to link them now. Don't expect any close link up nowadays though even Vertigo's own books don't related to each other most of the time.

Can't blame DC though so many changes of Power Structure in the last decade.

I thought it was very retarded of DC to put two of the three major Crises so close together...

Yeah, methinks too.

So many loopholes..
Now we have no idea who is stronger, The Presence or PM.

They might even retcon PM like Marvel did to Beyonder.