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Dark Khan has entered Nozgoth and seeks to merge it with the newly joined MK/DCU. Kain, being one of the Balance Guardians, must put a stop to this nefarious plot.

Dark Khan has his standard strength, as well as the ability to RAGE , and Kain has his standard weapons and spells.

The battle takes place in an open meadow that's begun the fusion process, and his hovering fifty feet above the ground. Kain has only thirty minutes to prepare before he must confront Dark Khan (any longer and Nozgoth risks being fused completely). This cannot be a victory for Kain unless he can destroy Dark Khan, KO and BFR will not work. The same is not true for Dark Khan.

Can the ancient vampire defeat one of the most idoti...er...powerful beings in existence?

Mist > Rage

Originally posted by XanatosForever
Dark Khan has entered Nozgoth and seeks to merge it with the newly joined MK/DCU. Kain, being one of the Balance Guardians, must put a stop to this nefarious plot.

Dark Khan has his standard strength, as well as the ability to RAGE , and Kain has his standard weapons and spells.

The battle takes place in an open meadow that's begun the fusion process, and his hovering fifty feet above the ground. Kain has only thirty minutes to prepare before he must confront Dark Khan (any longer and Nozgoth risks being fused completely). This cannot be a victory for Kain unless he can destroy Dark Khan, KO and BFR will not work. The same is not true for Dark Khan.

Can the ancient vampire defeat one of the most idoti...er...powerful beings in existence?

Ok so whats his durability like? can Kain smash him to bits because he has no real durability feats or can he rip out his soul? tear out his blood, steal his abilities and then destroy him with his own powers?

Kain will be literally immune to physical and magical powers throughout, will have his time powers up and running as well, then will prob slow Dark Khan by teleporting text to him, letting the time aura do its work, then use Incapaciate to freeze the fool solid, in a normal battle he would be defeated and Kain would have won but you say Kain has to destroy him? thus please answer my first questions.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kain will be literally immune to physical and magical powers throughout

Elaborate please.

repel shield backed up by Kains regulation means it would be invulerable throughout this fight to magic and physical forces.

A no-limit fallacy then.

hm a no limit, true, but not a fallacy no...

Originally posted by Burning thought
hm a no limit, true, but not a fallacy no...

So basically you're saying Illidan can survive a supernova because he's immune to fire and heat?

no, but his immunity has a level, a level that has to be shown, Kains shield protects him against those two aspects, it would be a no limits fallacy if I simply claimed him invicible because of the shield, but ime not, ime claiming him invicible because he has his shield which protects against those two aspects AND his magic regulation which would give it an infinite degree, thus, only a power beyond infnity can break it.

Damn it, I knew I forgot to mention something. The merging of the universes causes fluctuations in the strength of Nozgoth's natural state. Kain's abilities, attributes, etc. are weakened overall. So no infinite stuff going on.

No, this isn't me trying to make Kain weaker, this is canon to Dark Khan's game plot, and since that's the scenario I'm using that's what's going to be happening. Stupid? You bet your ass, but that's the way it goes.

Originally posted by Burning thought
no, but his immunity has a level, a level that has to be shown, Kains shield protects him against those two aspects, it would be a no limits fallacy if I simply claimed him invicible because of the shield, but ime not, ime claiming him invicible because he has his shield which protects against those two aspects AND his magic regulation which would give it an infinite degree, thus, only a power beyond infnity can break it.

Illidan has shown immunity to heat and fire. So by your logic, he can survive a supernova, because he's shown no limit. He has no set level.

What has Kain done that makes you certain that his ability is a no-limit but not a no-limit fallacy?

You would have to influence Kains status as the balance guardian, infnite regulation is simply something they can do, theres no weakened version, or higher. Its like breathing....it happens with merely an influence. Has his effect on fluctuations ever changed magical abilities and regulations?

although it does not really matter, its not important

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Illidan has shown immunity to heat and fire. So by your logic, he can survive a supernova, because he's shown no limit. He has no set level.

What has Kain done that makes you certain that his ability is a no-limit but not a no-limit fallacy?

You did not read my post, nor even answer it, you simply repeated what you said before, so ill repeat again.

Illidan needs to show a degree of heat, ime not talking about whats been shown as a limit do I? no....

Kains energy would be infnite in the shield, thus, his shield is infnite, thus, he would be immune

Xanatos however does not seem to want this regulation in the fight, it would wipe Dark Khan with ease, so Kain will have to go down to the level of soul and blood manip as well as time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Xanatos however does not seem to want this regulation in the fight, it would wipe Dark Khan with ease, so Kain will have to go down to the level of soul and blood manip as well as time.

It's got nothing to do with thinking DK can't handle it, BT, it was merely an oversight of mine given the scenario I had placed. Kain still has quite a large reserve of magical potential, I'm sure, but as was shown during the events of MK vs DCU, the merging of universes causes imbalances in both which weaken some characters and strengthen others.

Don't worry, BT, I'm sure you'll have Kain find a way around the massive shitpile...er...I mean powerhouse, that is Dark Khan.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You did not read my post, nor even answer it, you simply repeated what you said before, so ill repeat again.

Illidan needs to show a degree of heat, ime not talking about whats been shown as a limit do I? no....

Kains energy would be infnite in the shield, thus, his shield is infnite, thus, he would be immune

Xanatos however does not seem to want this regulation in the fight, it would wipe Dark Khan with ease, so Kain will have to go down to the level of soul and blood manip as well as time.

Illidan draws his powers from the Twisting Nether, which is infinite.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Illidan draws his powers from the Twisting Nether, which is infinite.

So? that doesnt mean he draws all of the power, unfortunatley he is not the regulator of such power, unlike Kain is the regulator of magic in general. Obvioulsy if he was the regulator of the magic of the twisting Nether, then he would be.

Although your talking nonsense because ime sure its never said all of Illidans resistances come from the twisting Nether or necesserily powers he uses it with.

Originally posted by Burning thought
So? that doesnt mean he draws all of the power, unfortunatley he is not the regulator of such power, unlike Kain is the regulator of magic in general. Obvioulsy if he was the regulator of the magic of the twisting Nether, then he would be.

Although your talking nonsense because ime sure its never said all of Illidans resistances come from the twisting Nether or necesserily powers he uses it with.

Kain isn't the regulator either. Nosgoth is its own regulator.

All power of all characters on all of Azeroth comes from the Twisting Nether. Every slight pinch of magic comes from there. Anything unnatural for each character is a concequence of their link to the Twisting Nether.

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Kain isn't the regulator either. Nosgoth is its own regulator.

All power of all characters on all of Azeroth comes from the Twisting Nether. Every slight pinch of magic comes from there. Anything unnatural for each character is a concequence of their link to the Twisting Nether.

No, Kain is the regulator, it states quite clearly, through his magics influence, magic is regulated, so his primary magic is already powerful enough/high level enough to regulate magic itself.

So? it comes from the twisting nether but they have to draw it themselves, how much they can draw is what makes their spells.

K, I'm gonna dispel this crap right now. 1. Kain's the regulator of magic in Nosgoth, not his entire universe, and if he were, regulation of one universe's magic =/= regulation of every universe's magic. Kain's universe doesn't seem to have an infinite supply of anything. No more no-limits fallacies.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
K, I'm gonna dispel this crap right now. 1. Kain's the regulator of magic in Nosgoth, not his entire universe, and if he were, regulation of one universe's magic =/= regulation of every universe's magic. Kain's universe doesn't seem to have an infinite supply of anything. No more no-limits fallacies.

He's not the regulator, that's the problem.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
K, I'm gonna dispel this crap right now. 1. Kain's the regulator of magic in Nosgoth, not his entire universe, and if he were, regulation of one universe's magic =/= regulation of every universe's magic. Kain's universe doesn't seem to have an infinite supply of anything. No more no-limits fallacies.

No his ROLE is regulator of magic in Nosgoth, thats what the quote says, the actual power still remains regulation of magic in general, simply sitting there and claiming "zomg well its not magic from another universe!" then we could comit the same fallacy for many characters and say they cannot use any of their powers because the universe and magic they use in their own universes or the sources of those magics do not excist in a non outlined space of a debate.

Failure. |: To say Kain casnnot manipulate someone else's foreign magic is perfectly logical, to say that character cannot manipulate their own magic, is not.

Not really, its trying to make a random and illogical reason for Kain not to be able to manipulate magic, Kain manips magic, its like saying putting a fire mainpulator in a diffrent universe and saying their unable to manip fire, it just doesnt work, magic is magic, the fact its foreign is never hinted to as a limit nor should it be one, why should the fact a magic is not of their own? or of their universe be diffrent? the force is still magic.

And why would they manip their own magic at all? according to you its foreign, well their magic would be foreign to the fighting place so surely they cannot call upon something that does not excist in their world? your making a claim against a neutral universe setting, Kains powers should work just as well in his realm as they do here, he can regulate magic in Nosgoth, he can do it in a battle.

Kain's powers do not account for the way magic works in other universes, he coudl still use and regulate all of his own magic liek any other character could, but to turn off their magic from a source that has nothing to do with him or his magic or unicverse, would never happen.

According to you, the Master swords powers decide whether a being is good or evil according to Hyrules rules, Kain will decide whether the universes magic is to his liking or not, afterall he is a regulator, where it comes from or what it is, is irrelevent, always has been.

I think your playing favourites.

Kain never works by sources, he manipulates magic itself, if a raw thunderbolt from a mages hands is considered magic by the universe that mage originitated from or perhaps indeed Kain, then its fair game and he will use it to blast the mages hands off, just how you seem to think MS decides on a persons alignment.

You're twisting it, sir. The master sword does not manipulate the other character, only makes a choice for itself, you're claiming Kain can manipulate foreign energies completely alien to him just because he can manipulate those in Nosgoth, which is still limited, btw.

Magic is a catch-all word, two things deemed magical can be VERY different and alien to one another.

No he is the regulator, therefore by the very defintion he governs the rules that affect magic, the fact its foreign would not make sense, the energies themselves he is manipulating are irrelvent, the only relevency is that they are magic, considering magic takes a variety of forms in LOK, variation does not make a diffrence, the fact is its magic. Your little straw man of trying to claim a no limits fallacy by tossing a random limit youve thought up such as foreign origin is like me saying magic will not effect Kain from another universe just because hes from a diffrence universe......a pointless, trolling ploy.

Hm depends really, unless you want to actually attempt to be a clever dicky and start bringing up "magic tricks" as a form of magic to try and prove its diffrent, a lot of magic in many fictions works and is very similiar if not the same to the rest, a caster connects to a source and uses it to cast a spell depending on their knowledge, there are variations but the idea is very similiar indeed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont believe Capcom said that and if they did, its a no limits fallacy based only in the DMC verse, Dante has been screwed over by several small swords in his time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Kains powers should work just as well in his realm as they do here, he can regulate magic in Nosgoth, he can do it in a battle.

Nice job. Now, that is only in Kain's own universe. Which you call no-limit fallacy. hyprocrite

Dark Khan is physically strong enough to overpower and take hits from Superman. Which means he cannot be harmed by Kain's physical attacks.

He is a merge of both Darkseid and Shao Kahn, both are immune to soul attacks, one of whom is a casual soul ripper.

Darkseid exists beyond the normal flow of time if I recall right, which means time attacks will not harm him.

He has the Omega Effect. He can quite literally kill Kain as a baby if he wanted to by firing it into the past, or he could just disintegrate Kain himself.

Dark Khan rapes this thread.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Dark Khan is physically strong enough to overpower and take hits from Superman. Which means he cannot be harmed by Kain's physical attacks.

He is a merge of both Darkseid and Shao Kahn, both are immune to soul attacks, one of whom is a casual soul ripper.

Darkseid exists beyond the normal flow of time if I recall right, which means time attacks will not harm him.

He has the Omega Effect. He can quite literally kill Kain as a baby if he wanted to by firing it into the past, or he could just disintegrate Kain himself.

Dark Khan rapes this thread.

When? has this been shown in canon? show me..

Hes a merge, that does not mean he has exactley the same powers as either also where is this shown or stated?

Explain this "normal flow of time" nonsense, Kains powers are bolts of time or an AOE of time, slowing it, what flow of time he happens to be in makes no diffrence, he is still in a time flow, but then again, your talking about just plain Darksied, this is a merge.

He has for sure? or Darksied has and you assume the merge does?

Kain just drains the thing of energy completly, leaving it an empty husk.

Originally posted by The Valiant
Nice job. Now, that is only in Kain's own universe. Which you call no-limit fallacy. hyprocrite


You get really confused in some of these debates dont you? you really do....

You just cant understand what the diffrence between gameplay mechanics and gameplay feats are and you cant understand whats a no limits fallacy and whats just a no limit. I shall makesure ime crystal clear in everything I say next time.

If Dark Khan have the power of Darkseid then yes I agree with Nemebro he rapes Kain. Also I'm inclined to based on the previous presented scans that from my perspective shows Dark Khan merging two universes put him above anything Kain has presented on panel.

Presented perhaps, capable of? no....

And from what ive heard people seem to think the merge was because of something else besides, since ive not played it or even seen anything to do with the character its hard say. Although merging two universes although more powerful than what Kain has displayed means little in a battle.

Imo it was shown that he merged two universes together to do that require immense amounts of energy far more then Kain has ever displayed capable of producing ore handling.

But again if Dark Khan has the power of Darkseid that will be enough.

darksied souls

Originally posted by Utrigita
Imo it was shown that he merged two universes together to do that require immense amounts of energy far more then Kain has ever displayed capable of producing ore handling.

But again if Dark Khan has the power of Darkseid that will be enough.

Thats a specific power, we dont know about energy or what he actually does to do that, nor do we know if he can replicate it in any other way, thus, its a non combat move, totally useless in this matchup.

"shrug" looking at a few wiki arcticles, Batman has foiled Darkseid and apprently escaped his omega beams.

Originally posted by Burning thought
When? has this been shown in canon? show me..

Hes a merge, that does not mean he has exactley the same powers as either also where is this shown or stated?

Explain this "normal flow of time" nonsense, Kains powers are bolts of time or an AOE of time, slowing it, what flow of time he happens to be in makes no diffrence, he is still in a time flow, but then again, your talking about just plain Darksied, this is a merge.

He has for sure? or Darksied has and you assume the merge does?

Kain just drains the thing of energy completly, leaving it an empty husk. 1. His final opponents were Superman and Raiden. Raiden provided the magic, Superman provided the muscle.

2. He shows the ability to use the Omega Effect. That is all he needs to win this fight. The very concept of his character is that he is a merge between Shao Kahn and Darkseid, hence the name Dark Khan.

3. He is both in one. Darkseid as a New God exists beyond the normal flow of time. Which is all Kain's faggy bolts have shown to affect. Try again.

4. He has for sure. And he is a merge between both, why would he lose their powers? That is idiotic.

5. Prove he can drain the energy of anything.

3.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats a specific power, we dont know about energy or what he actually does to do that, nor do we know if he can replicate it in any other way, thus, its a non combat move, totally useless in this matchup.

"shrug" looking at a few wiki arcticles, Batman has foiled Darkseid and apprently escaped his omega beams. 1. Collapsing the universe is not useless in this fight.

2. LOL. The animated universe Darkseid failed to hit Batman with his Omega Beams. And Batman is faster than Kain by feats so it is irrelevant.

Originally posted by NemeBro
2. LOL. The animated universe Darkseid failed to hit Batman with his Omega Beams. And Batman is faster than Kain by feats so it is irrelevant.

The truth in these words humor me

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. His final opponents were Superman and Raiden. Raiden provided the magic, Superman provided the muscle.

2. He shows the ability to use the Omega Effect. That is all he needs to win this fight. The very concept of his character is that he is a merge between Shao Kahn and Darkseid, hence the name Dark Khan.

3. He is both in one. Darkseid as a New God exists beyond the normal flow of time. Which is all Kain's faggy bolts have shown to affect. Try again.

4. He has for sure. And he is a merge between both, why would he lose their powers? That is idiotic.

5. Prove he can drain the energy of anything.

3.

1. But is it shown in a cutscene? video? is it canon that they beat on him or is this gameplay solely?

2. So whats the Omega Effect achieve while hes Dark Khan?

3. Well from Wikia, its actually stated the New Gods live in a place in a diffrent flow of time, that does not mean they are constantly in excistence in that diffrent flow and furthermore by becoming a merge, his flow of time may change to Shoa Khans for all you know...

4. Not really, you and everyone on this forum agrees the character is idiotic so its hardly a stones throw, infact according to others its idiotic someone as powerful as Darkseid combines with Shoa Khan.

5. Regulation

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Collapsing the universe is not useless in this fight.

2. LOL. The animated universe Darkseid failed to hit Batman with his Omega Beams. And Batman is faster than Kain by feats so it is irrelevant.

1. Its Merging the Universe.

2. How so? Batman is a peak human is he not? so he cant actually be canonically faster.

Originally posted by Burning thought
2. How so? Batman is a peak human is he not? so he cant actually be canonically faster.

The immortal comeback.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. But is it shown in a cutscene? video? is it canon that they beat on him or is this gameplay solely?

2. So whats the Omega Effect achieve while hes Dark Khan?

3. Well from Wikia, its actually stated the New Gods live in a place in a diffrent flow of time, that does not mean they are constantly in excistence in that diffrent flow and furthermore by becoming a merge, his flow of time may change to Shoa Khans for all you know...

4. Not really, you and everyone on this forum agrees the character is idiotic so its hardly a stones throw, infact according to others its idiotic someone as powerful as Darkseid combines with Shoa Khan.

5. Regulation

1. Its Merging the Universe.

2. How so? Batman is a peak human is he not? so he cant actually be canonically faster. 1. Canon. In storyline.

2. The Omega Effect's properties do not change with a different user. Though he uses it in the form of the Omega Beams, which erase individuals. Hell...He erased many individuals across both universes when he merged them, and you think he cannot do the same to Kain?

3. No they don't, they live outside the normal flow of space and time, and they live in the Fourth World. And it isn't like Darseid does not have Time Powers of his own.

4. The concept of the character is lazy and uninspired, there is no proof that he lost any powers, to say he did is unfounded and ridiculous.

5. Show me him using this regulation on another entity.

6. He merged it. His ultimate plan was to collapse it.

7. Peak human means shit, especially since the term peak human in DC and Marvel is so warped. Call me when Kain can dodge point blank gunfire.

Indeed. Peak humans in fiction is way different from peak humans in our world. In Warcraft, Varian Wrynn destroyed stone with his bare hands, and he's nothing but human.

Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Canon. In storyline.

2. The Omega Effect's properties do not change with a different user. Though he uses it in the form of the Omega Beams, which erase individuals. Hell...He erased many individuals across both universes when he merged them, and you think he cannot do the same to Kain?

3. No they don't, they live outside the normal flow of space and time, and they live in the Fourth World. And it isn't like Darseid does not have Time Powers of his own.

4. The concept of the character is lazy and uninspired, there is no proof that he lost any powers, to say he did is unfounded and ridiculous.

5. Show me him using this regulation on another entity.

6. He merged it. His ultimate plan was to collapse it.

7. Peak human means shit, especially since the term peak human in DC and Marvel is so warped. Call me when Kain can dodge point blank gunfire.

1. Can you show this? you did not answer all my questions.

2. why? how many users have used it other than Darksied? no because theres no universes as far as I know in this matchup for him to merge and I should like to think ime right in assuming they both start off in the same universe when they begin anyway.

3. exactley, live in the fourth world, unfortunatley hes not living there in this match, hes in w/e the matchup puts them in and hes not Darksied, hes Dark Khan, who does not necesserily have the same properties as both.

4. not really, theres no proof he can do all powers of both sides, theres reasons to believe he may due to the fact he did not use all powers for one and another is that the character is diffrent in general, the form of Shoa Khan may inhibit the use of some powers for some unkown reason.

5. Kain controls energy with his magic, through regulation this energy is his tool, thus energy is his tool, the fact its another beings is irrelvent, especially to Kain who is the regulator. Thats like asking you to show me Kratos displaying a strength feat on a vampire because I want to know if he can display the same strength in the presence of one, pointless and irrelevent.

6. Plans do not add up to a feat.

7. "shrug" they use it for batman all the time, and dodge in what way? James bonde has dodged gunfire, I use him all the time simply because hes definaltey nothing but a man but can dodge bullets at ridiculous angles with stupid luck, its not necesserily impressive, unless its emphasised that the bullets were coming at him and he actually reacted to the bullets themselves, not the gunshot, e.g. Neo in the matrix

I know that I'd make plans to assassinate somebody when I can't do it.

You realise James Bond is a fictional character, too, right BT?

Originally posted by Burning thought
You just cant understand what the diffrence between gameplay mechanics and gameplay feats are and you cant understand whats a no limits fallacy and whats just a no limit. I shall makesure ime crystal clear in everything I say next time.

Means shit. Besides, you claimed NONETHING CAN KILL...KAIN!!!!

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
You realise James Bond is a fictional character, too, right BT?

Exactley why he is a perfect example, hes made to be a normal human being other than the fact he is a special agent with incredible skills yet he can seemingly outrun bullets, machineguns, rockets etc without much problem. Its its like a "I iz luckies" syndrome, which is likely what Batman did. Dodging bullets can be done in so many ways with characters, many of which are simply not impressive, usually reacting to their enemies faulty aim or the gunshot itself, not a bullet.

Originally posted by The Valiant
Means shit. Besides, you claimed NONETHING CAN KILL...KAIN!!!!

Nothing can, time itself will not allow him to die, his envelope of invulerability is not because of what he is, its who he is, its nothing to do with his durability but because he is the Scion of balance and he will live or excist or survive odds because of this.

If Kain can survive while as particles of a diffrent material (mist) without bodily features, nothing but his concious power/soul to control it, or survive without the heart of darkness in his body, the only reason he is alive technically yet without it he can survive, then what use is trying to kill him? someone would have to be able to break the time protection that is immutable or perhaps take his highly resistant soul.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Exactley why he is a perfect example, hes made to be a normal human being other than the fact he is a special agent with incredible skills yet he can seemingly outrun bullets, machineguns, rockets etc without much problem. Its its like a "I iz luckies" syndrome, which is likely what Batman did. Dodging bullets can be done in so many ways with characters, many of which are simply not impressive, usually reacting to their enemies faulty aim or the gunshot itself, not a bullet.

Luck. Right. That's why Batman with his back turned heard someone a few buildings away pull the trigger, hearing the bang and dodged the sniper rifle bullet thanks to reacting to the sound of the rifle without knowing the shooter was there in the first place. The next instant, the shooter was brought down by a batarang as result of an immediate throw in the very same movement he dodged.


Pure luck. Puuuure luck Do some reading before you make claims. Batman is not some lucky punk. He rips steel chains out of concrete, kicks down pansar doors, throws people through steel gates, taking the gun from a man starting meters away before the man could pull it (And the man did the first move). As for dodging bullets, Batman when initially stood still has dodged bullets after they has been fired at him. This is no James Bond crap. Comparing the two is an insult to Batman, and proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

When James Bond can hold up a ton, speedblitz other humans, punch down brick walls, lift 400 pound over his head and catch an arrow he doesn't see coming until it's by his ear, then the two are worth comparing. Until then, James Bond isn't anywhere near DC peak human.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats a specific power, we dont know about energy or what he actually does to do that, nor do we know if he can replicate it in any other way, thus, its a non combat move, totally useless in this matchup.

"shrug" looking at a few wiki arcticles, Batman has foiled Darkseid and apprently escaped his omega beams.

We know that he uses his own power, we know that he merges them we know that beings in both universes are erased from existance. No it's not If a being is capable of breaking down dimensional barriers and then merging two entire different universes together without collapsing both is a show of both impressive control but also extensive amounts of energy. But then Again Darkseid's power alone is more then enough to flatten Kain.

Welcome to the Cartoon version of Darkseid. In the "real" world nothing have dodged the Omega Beam, the only way for two flashes to survive being targeted (by a significant weaker version of the Omega Effect) was that they had to run several times the speed of light.

Originally posted by Utrigita
We know that he uses his own power, we know that he merges them we know that beings in both universes are erased from existance. No it's not If a being is capable of breaking down dimensional barriers and then merging two entire different universes together without collapsing both is a show of both impressive control but also extensive amounts of energy. But then Again Darkseid's power alone is more then enough to flatten Kain.

Welcome to the Cartoon version of Darkseid. In the "real" world nothing have dodged the Omega Beam, the only way for two flashes to survive being targeted (by a significant weaker version of the Omega Effect) was that they had to run several times the speed of light.

We know he uses power to merge universes, whether the repercussions of this merge (most likely) were the reason for beings being erased or whether he did it on purpose is not known.

Is it even outlined how fast the Omega beam is?

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
Luck. Right. That's why Batman with his back turned heard someone a few buildings away pull the trigger, hearing the bang and dodged the sniper rifle bullet thanks to reacting to the sound of the rifle without knowing the shooter was there in the first place. The next instant, the shooter was brought down by a batarang as result of an immediate throw in the very same movement he dodged.


Pure luck. Puuuure luck Do some reading before you make claims. Batman is not some lucky punk. He rips steel chains out of concrete, kicks down pansar doors, throws people through steel gates, taking the gun from a man starting meters away before the man could pull it (And the man did the first move). As for dodging bullets, Batman when initially stood still has dodged bullets after they has been fired at him. This is no James Bond crap. Comparing the two is an insult to Batman, and proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

When James Bond can hold up a ton, speedblitz other humans, punch down brick walls, lift 400 pound over his head and catch an arrow he doesn't see coming until it's by his ear, then the two are worth comparing. Until then, James Bond isn't anywhere near DC peak human.

I made no claims on Batmans feat, I outlined examples where a character had dodged bullets in a way that is not even impressive so have a good try and actually read my posts before you blunder into a conversation, especially one you were not invited to, its quite rude

Although I think ive seen that comic scan before, I would need to see it again, I have the feeling there was more to it than your statements.

not at all an insult to batman, he moves quickly because he is peak human and bullets have a lot to take into account in dodging them, not simply because their quick but their accuracy could be off, the gunman may be less skilled, or obvious in his shots, the fact a bullet is quick does not make it a good feat until its obvious Batman dodged the bullet coming straight at him through speed alone. Until then peak human, is peak human unless DC outlined humans to be more than typical humans.

Originally posted by Burning thought
We know he uses power to merge universes, whether the repercussions of this merge (most likely) were the reason for beings being erased or whether he did it on purpose is not known.

Is it even outlined how fast the Omega beam is?

It didn't seem like a coincidence given the knowlegde that presented on each character, he knew that Captain Marvel and Raiden knew of his merging and would attempt to stop him and so on, he was constantly aware of the situation in both universes seperately, that leads me to believe that the fact that beings was erased was hardly coincidentel. And it still doesn't change that he displayed enough energy to merge two universes into each other breaking down dimensional barriers that is above anything Kain has displayed.

I think the fact that none can avoid it and that you have to travel several times the speed of light in order to avoid it speaks for itself

Originally posted by Utrigita
It didn't seem like a coincidence given the knowlegde that presented on each character, he knew that Captain Marvel and Raiden knew of his merging and would attempt to stop him and so on, he was constantly aware of the situation in both universes seperately, that leads me to believe that the fact that beings was erased was hardly coincidentel. And it still doesn't change that he displayed enough energy to merge two universes into each other breaking down dimensional barriers that is above anything Kain has displayed.

I think the fact that none can avoid it and that you have to travel several times the speed of light in order to avoid it speaks for itself

But nothing states still that he planned them to be removed from excistence or if its just a side effect of merging unvierses, either way hes not done anything else with this power, if we go as far to say he can do so. But as you said, what kain has "displayed".

Is it stated they have to move that fast to escape it? or just avoid it....it may be sluggish but persistant. Do they say they "have" to move that quickly?

SuperKain Prime for the win

Originally posted by Burning thought
But nothing states still that he planned them to be removed from excistence or if its just a side effect of merging unvierses, either way hes not done anything else with this power, if we go as far to say he can do so. But as you said, what kain has "displayed".

Is it stated they have to move that fast to escape it? or just avoid it....it may be sluggish but persistant. Do they say they "have" to move that quickly?

It still clearly showed that his power as a sideeffect could erase beings from existance, which given the nature of the Omega Force that Darkseid has at his disposal is quite natural. He doesn't really need to do anything else besides that to get a win above Kain that have neither broken down dimensional barriers and merged two universes nore has he as a side effect of using his power erased beings across two seperate universes. Dark Khan as also according to Nemebro (who still haven't showed evidence but I think he will) have held his own against Superman and Raiden.

Escape it, you can't avoid it (only in cartoon) you can either try and tank it (which in Kain's case would equal death ore being shattered across thousands of different locations in time at a molecule level) ore do as the flashes try and outrune it and they was moving at superluminal speed, and all they had managed to do iirc was to keep the distance between themselves and the Omega Beam unchanged. Ore you could have some extremly powerful artifact like Wonder Women had.

Originally posted by Utrigita
It still clearly showed that his power as a sideeffect could erase beings from existance, which given the nature of the Omega Force that Darkseid has at his disposal is quite natural. He doesn't really need to do anything else besides that to get a win above Kain that have neither broken down dimensional barriers and merged two universes nore has he as a side effect of using his power erased beings across two seperate universes. Dark Khan as also according to Nemebro (who still haven't showed evidence but I think he will) have held his own against Superman and Raiden.

Escape it, you can't avoid it (only in cartoon) you can either try and tank it (which in Kain's case would equal death ore being shattered across thousands of different locations in time at a molecule level) ore do as the flashes try and outrune it and they was moving at superluminal speed, and all they had managed to do iirc was to keep the distance between themselves and the Omega Beam unchanged. Ore you could have some extremly powerful artifact like Wonder Women had.

No it showed the merge of universes as a side effect erased beings.


hm, or Kain could turn into a weather system (mist) and have it affect nothing, simply pass through him. And what is it? if its a spell he can reflect it off the Repel shield.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No it showed the merge of universes as a side effect erased beings.


hm, or Kain could turn into a weather system (mist) and have it affect nothing, simply pass through him. And what is it? if its a spell he can reflect it off the Repel shield.

And who performed the merging? Who's power was used? Dark Khan.

Good luck with both, The Omega Beam has bypassed the shield of Moebius Chair on one occasion, and went straight through Braniac's shield on another occasion. Also if he goes into mist form he would efficiantly battlefield remove himself, the moment he goes back into corporal form he gets hit, If Darkseid haven't transmuted the mist into stone, and even if Kain is in mist form he can still be hit, Spectre a being with no corporal form could...

To merge yes, so? I felt like you were trying to imply that Dark Khan actively made beings become erased, or that he could erase beings himself, this is not implied, its shown that because of the merge, beings were erased. Thing is, he cannot merge anything in this match, hes not got a couple of universes to toy with.



Were theirs just shieds or were they made to reflect? like Kains.

What? that makes no sense, why would he be BFR in mist form? hes just canged his form, and why would he get hit? it would go through him and hit an object and dissapate unless your saying it will just sit there waiting for him? I find that hard to believe.....and this is not Darksied. Saying it could hit mist is imo foolish, not being corporeal is one thing but being a diffrent material, such as a weather is another, its like thinking that if Darksied fired an Omega effect inside a cloud or during the rain, that his beam would hit and doll out their full effect on the rain drops and disipate, or in water vapour, obvioulsy this is not the case since moisture in some form is always in the air.

Originally posted by Burning thought
To merge yes, so? I felt like you were trying to imply that Dark Khan actively made beings become erased, or that he could erase beings himself, this is not implied, its shown that because of the merge, beings were erased. Thing is, he cannot merge anything in this match, hes not got a couple of universes to toy with.



Were theirs just shieds or were they made to reflect? like Kains.

What? that makes no sense, why would he be BFR in mist form? hes just canged his form, and why would he get hit? it would go through him and hit an object and dissapate unless your saying it will just sit there waiting for him? I find that hard to believe.....and this is not Darksied. Saying it could hit mist is imo foolish, not being corporeal is one thing but being a diffrent material, such as a weather is another, its like thinking that if Darksied fired an Omega effect inside a cloud or during the rain, that his beam would hit and doll out their full effect on the rain drops and disipate, or in water vapour, obvioulsy this is not the case since moisture in some form is always in the air.

Was it Dark Khan's power that performed the merging? Yes. Was it as a side effect of Dark Khan utilizing his power that beings got erased? Yes. Is that given the nature of the Omega Force unnatural? No.

Kain's haven't been capable of taking the amount of damage that neither of the shields have so I consider it irrelevant for the thread. And good luck repelling a attack that isn't magical which is what Kain's shield reflect.

If Kain can't reenter the battlefield (which he can but he would doom himself if he did) then he has BFR himself. It will, it have been showed to travel through the universe and hitting Superman it have also flown around a being just waiting for Darkseid's command, the Omega Effect can remain active for as long as Darkseid wishes it. Kain is still there isn't he? his form has changed but that is it. If the Beam can hit spectre a Ghost then it can most certainly hit Kain, but then again Darkseid can just transmute Kain's Mist form into stone.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Were theirs just shieds or were they made to reflect? like Kains.

When his shield has shown resistant to damage on a molecular level, your no-limit fallacy would have an excuse of being used.
Kain would be as exposed after as before he had used the shield if he was struck by that beam. Before you start talking about the tooltip of it, I suggest you remind yourself that it shield Kain from physical and magical attacks. Not molecular.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Was it Dark Khan's power that performed the merging? Yes. Was it as a side effect of Dark Khan utilizing his power that beings got erased? Yes. Is that given the nature of the Omega Force unnatural? No.

Kain's haven't been capable of taking the amount of damage that neither of the shields have so I consider it irrelevant for the thread. And good luck repelling a attack that isn't magical which is what Kain's shield reflect.

If Kain can't reenter the battlefield (which he can but he would doom himself if he did) then he has BFR himself. It will, it have been showed to travel through the universe and hitting Superman it have also flown around a being just waiting for Darkseid's command, the Omega Effect can remain active for as long as Darkseid wishes it. Kain is still there isn't he? his form has changed but that is it. If the Beam can hit spectre a Ghost then it can most certainly hit Kain, but then again Darkseid can just transmute Kain's Mist form into stone.

It wasa side effect of the merging, not necesserily anything to do with his power, for all we know the same would have happened if anyone merged a universe. Its useless in this matchup..yes

You should have just said its not magical, damage is unimportant for a reflecting shield.

Actually, I wonder if Dark Khan can survive his own omega beam, I would like to see the horror on his skeletal force as his own Omega beam flies back to reach Kain as he materialises behind Khan....Darksied is not in this match also when has Darksied transmuted mist into stone simply out of interest? doesnt sound like a feat a character would even bother showing....

The way i see it, Kain is mist, the beam goes through since its not going to affect water vapour or deliever its "super powerfulz" effect on a droplet of water then Kain materialises right on top of Khan, who unfortunatley gets hit by the Omega blast, dieing instantly. So really all Kain needs to beat this goof is mst form...

Thats ofcourse assuming he does not just use magic regulation to make his time bolt universal, freeze Khan solid in his own time flow while tearing him out of it for the amusement it may bring (assuming he is in the fourth world time flow as Dark Khan) then simply drain him completly using the regulation of the energy concept, then without any energy, and frozen in time he would be useless, just to answer the thread Kain lets loose the energy and blows Khan into fragments with his own energy.

Oh joy. More antecedent denial. Cease the logical fallacies Burning Thought. I really don't think it's good for you (Seriously) mmm

Denial? hmm, thats funny, seems to me your the one denying and ignoring power outlined by the developers themselves who originally designed the characters and ime actually using things from evidence ive shown to back that claim up, unlike you who does not back anything up and apparently respects the view of people who know more than you, considering your ideal of trust you should agree with me who has played all the LOK games. Ofcourse I expect the typical bias+hypocrisy over a character someone does not like....just do it in the knowledge it will not make a difference on me, nor will anyone elses whining and denial.

Originally posted by Burning thought
It wasa side effect of the merging, not necesserily anything to do with his power, for all we know the same would have happened if anyone merged a universe. Its useless in this matchup..yes

You should have just said its not magical, damage is unimportant for a reflecting shield.

Actually, I wonder if Dark Khan can survive his own omega beam, I would like to see the horror on his skeletal force as his own Omega beam flies back to reach Kain as he materialises behind Khan....Darksied is not in this match also when has Darksied transmuted mist into stone simply out of interest? doesnt sound like a feat a character would even bother showing....

The way i see it, Kain is mist, the beam goes through since its not going to affect water vapour or deliever its "super powerfulz" effect on a droplet of water then Kain materialises right on top of Khan, who unfortunatley gets hit by the Omega blast, dieing instantly. So really all Kain needs to beat this goof is mst form...

Thats ofcourse assuming he does not just use magic regulation to make his time bolt universal, freeze Khan solid in his own time flow while tearing him out of it for the amusement it may bring (assuming he is in the fourth world time flow as Dark Khan) then simply drain him completly using the regulation of the energy concept, then without any energy, and frozen in time he would be useless, just to answer the thread Kain lets loose the energy and blows Khan into fragments with his own energy.

Hardly, neither when four realities in marvel was merged, ore in DC have beings ever been casually erased across both universes, to suggest that it would happen should anyone do it, is unfound speculation imo.

So If I drop a nuke on it, it would be perfectly fine? Btw the Omega Beam is the same attack that have brought Pre Crisis Superman to his knees

Sorry but as mentioned on the Wiki concerning Marvel vs Tekken, Darkseid has full access to the Omega effect. No Dark Khan, a merging of Shao Khan And Darkseid is. He haven't transformed mist into stone, but the fact that he has turned a Daxamite (a being that is roughly equal to superman in terms of Durability and so on) into dust without the Omega Beam is enough to make the call that he can turn mist which density is much lower into stone ore dust take your pick.

If The Omega Beam didn't have pinpoint accuracy then it could happen, but since that isn't the case and the fact that Darkseid has never ever missed a target I see no reason to believe that Kain in a mist form should be capable of outsmarting him, the thought alone shows that you knowlegde of Darkseid and his capacities is lacking.

As Nemebro have already asked. Show us a incident of Kain regulating Magic to anything near the level you claim he can meanwhile I will go out and find Dark Khan using the Omega Effect.

Originally posted by Utrigita
So If I drop a nuke on it, it would be perfectly fine?

No, silly. It would bounce and return to sender.

Originally posted by Utrigita
As Nemebro have already asked. Show us a incident of Kain regulating Magic to anything near the level you claim he can meanwhile I will go out and find Dark Khan using the Omega Effect.

You won't get anything. He's never regulated anything. He doesn't even have direct regulating powers.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Hardly, neither when four realities in marvel was merged, ore in DC have beings ever been casually erased across both universes, to suggest that it would happen should anyone do it, is unfound speculation imo.

So If I drop a nuke on it, it would be perfectly fine? Btw the Omega Beam is the same attack that have brought Pre Crisis Superman to his knees

Sorry but as mentioned on the Wiki concerning Marvel vs Tekken, Darkseid has full access to the Omega effect. No Dark Khan, a merging of Shao Khan And Darkseid is. He haven't transformed mist into stone, but the fact that he has turned a Daxamite (a being that is roughly equal to superman in terms of Durability and so on) into dust without the Omega Beam is enough to make the call that he can turn mist which density is much lower into stone ore dust take your pick.

If The Omega Beam didn't have pinpoint accuracy then it could happen, but since that isn't the case and the fact that Darkseid has never ever missed a target I see no reason to believe that Kain in a mist form should be capable of outsmarting him, the thought alone shows that you knowlegde of Darkseid and his capacities is lacking.

As Nemebro have already asked. Show us a incident of Kain regulating Magic to anything near the level you claim he can meanwhile I will go out and find Dark Khan using the Omega Effect.

unfound speculation that Khans own power did it as well.

No because it reflects magic, as stated quite clearly

So he turned something dense into dust? thats no reason to believe he can transmute anything, certainly not water droplets, or even work this power on something as small as water vapour/droplets. I know Dark Khan is a merge of Darkseid and Khan, so why then do you immedialtey assume he gains Darksieds brain and not Khans? or perhaps half and half? you assume to much, adding half an orange and half an apple to a smoothy creates a flavour very distinct from both. I dont really need an analogy, I just need to ask for feats of Dark Khan showing the same intellect as either the characters.

No the thought shows ime thinking outside of the box, it would seem that DARK KHAN has perhaps not been able to direct his omega beams in such a way as Darkseid and if so, pinpoint accuracy means little if your opponent is holding onto you, hell Kain could mist and float through Khan as it happens, having this beam strike him. Unless you can show me Dark Khan with this incredible reaction and speed of control of this beam.

Its not a level is it, a limit on the one who sets the regulations makes no logical sense. There can be no limit, by defintion Kain can do these things. My answer to you is the same to him, its like asking you to show me Darksied using powers on a shield created by a vampire as if that fact would make a diffrence, its irrelvent.

Originally posted by Burning thought
unfound speculation that Khans own power did it as well.

No because it reflects magic, as stated quite clearly

So he turned something dense into dust? thats no reason to believe he can transmute anything, certainly not water droplets, or even work this power on something as small as water vapour/droplets. I know Dark Khan is a merge of Darkseid and Khan, so why then do you immedialtey assume he gains Darksieds brain and not Khans? or perhaps half and half? you assume to much, adding half an orange and half an apple to a smoothy creates a flavour very distinct from both. I dont really need an analogy, I just need to ask for feats of Dark Khan showing the same intellect as either the characters.

No the thought shows ime thinking outside of the box, it would seem that DARK KHAN has perhaps not been able to direct his omega beams in such a way as Darkseid and if so, pinpoint accuracy means little if your opponent is holding onto you, hell Kain could mist and float through Khan as it happens, having this beam strike him. Unless you can show me Dark Khan with this incredible reaction and speed of control of this beam.

Its not a level is it, a limit on the one who sets the regulations makes no logical sense. There can be no limit, by defintion Kain can do these things. My answer to you is the same to him, its like asking you to show me Darksied using powers on a shield created by a vampire as if that fact would make a diffrence, its irrelvent.

Really based on what? I would like you to point out where in the scans you read that?

Then there is no reason to believe it should in any way reflect the attack from Dark Khan, which in short hands the win to Dark Khan.

Sorry but that is like saying that because Galactus can transmute Terrax into energy that doesn't mean that he can transform air molecules into technology, which is simply flat out wrong. Darkseid showed that he could affect a being with the same durability as superman, last time I checked the durability of water was lesser then a guy (Superman) that can accelerate to near light speed and then run straight into a black moon and only get knocked out. I'm no suggesting he gets ones mind more then the Other I'm merely pointing out the powers that Dark Khan should gain when a merging between Darkseid and Shao Khan toke place. If he gots half of half then he isn't exactly stupid.

So we are just going to assume that a merging between Darkseid and Shao Khan has shit control over the most basic ability and most used ability that Darkseid has? Please. And Dark Khan could redirect it instantly, you really need to read up on the omega beam. I will happily show you as soon as I find a useable Video, since I don't suppose you will take a wiki as valid information.

No this request isn't irrelevant, I ask you to provide proof for a statement you have made concerning a Character and that Characters powerlevel and possibilities in this particular thread, as the opposite to a shield that I know have never succesfully repeled something that can harm a being that can tank a Nuke. Furthermore the shield is irrelevant because as mentioned by Q it has never showed repelling something that operates on a molecule level. So again show me Kain regulating magic to the level you claim possible and then peforming the things you deem possible based on it.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Really based on what? I would like you to point out where in the scans you read that?

Then there is no reason to believe it should in any way reflect the attack from Dark Khan, which in short hands the win to Dark Khan.

Sorry but that is like saying that because Galactus can transmute Terrax into energy that doesn't mean that he can transform air molecules into technology, which is simply flat out wrong. Darkseid showed that he could affect a being with the same durability as superman, last time I checked the durability of water was lesser then a guy (Superman) that can accelerate to near light speed and then run straight into a black moon and only get knocked out. I'm no suggesting he gets ones mind more then the Other I'm merely pointing out the powers that Dark Khan should gain when a merging between Darkseid and Shao Khan toke place. If he gots half of half then he isn't exactly stupid.

So we are just going to assume that a merging between Darkseid and Shao Khan has shit control over the most basic ability and most used ability that Darkseid has? Please. And Dark Khan could redirect it instantly, you really need to read up on the omega beam. I will happily show you as soon as I find a useable Video, since I don't suppose you will take a wiki as valid information.

No this request isn't irrelevant, I ask you to provide proof for a statement you have made concerning a Character and that Characters powerlevel and possibilities in this particular thread, as the opposite to a shield that I know have never succesfully repeled something that can harm a being that can tank a Nuke. Furthermore the shield is irrelevant because as mentioned by Q it has never showed repelling something that operates on a molecule level. So again show me Kain regulating magic to the level you claim possible and then peforming the things you deem possible based on it.

Exactley, I did not read it in the scans, which means your the one speculating it.

No because Kain is not neceeserily going to rely on one shield, he has teleportation to escape this effect as well as mist form, which can also be his mode of attack.

Your the one trying to use logic for your own arguments by saying a character can do something it has no done with its powers yet denying me doing the same for Kain....hypocrisy. Whos talking about durability? ime talking about whether this character can effect something of a diffrent material, e.g. vapour, and your telling me this guy turned a physical object into dust, e.g. particles? water do not become dust, they are air and vapour, moisture etc, it sounds like your trying to debate that one guy gets turned into dust so it means just because droplets are less durable they can be transformed into dust? that doesnt even make sense, it sounds to me that your taking advantage of my lack of knowledge on Darksied anyway, if he can just turn a being into dust, why doesnt he just do it to all his opponents? should gain? this is going to haunt you now so i hope you meant to say that, this outlines the fact you dont actually know what this character has so your just pulling abilities from Darksieds shown feats list?

I will look at a Wiki out of interest. We can assume what we like, it does not mean either one is true until we know for certain what this Khan can actually do.

Its compeltlty irrelvent, by defintion as regulator over magic Kain can do these things, its not a power that requires defined scope, the power itself defines the scope. Kain regulations, governs and sets the order over magic, therefore, he merely orders its scope to be beyond Darksied, whats better yet that fortunatley those against Kains power pointed out is that he does it with his own magic, so already his power is such to be able to perform, rule and govern the power that is magic but also the higher bound he places in his regulation for magic, the higher his own bounds are by default.

To throw in an analogy, it would be like you claiming flash can go lightspeed, you providing evidence saying officially and factually he can (lets say for the sake of it, from the developers) then me asking "show me Flash performing lightspeed to the height lightspeed" its ridiculous and does not make sense.

Dark Khan is effectively fighting a being who is omnipotent in the specific magic powers he has access to, which include energy, time, dimension, weather and more.

The discussion is good, but this is not Sephiroth vs Link yet.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
The discussion is good, but this is not Sephiroth vs Link yet.

What?

Just search "Sephiroth vs Link" on this forum. It's amazing.

I'm sorry. You don't make much sense. Of course this isn't "Sephiroth Vs Link". It's "Dark Khan Vs Kain"

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
I'm sorry. You don't make much sense. Of course this isn't "Sephiroth Vs Link". It's "Dark Khan Vs Kain"

He meant that this thread has potential. You should really search for that thread. I, personally, suffered from temporary insanity after reading it.

The concentration of fanboyism there was truly astounding.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
He meant that this thread has potential. You should really search for that thread. I, personally, suffered from temporary insanity after reading it.

The concentration of fanboyism there was truly astounding.

This thread is no different from any other thread where a person persist to debate Burning Thought when it comes to Kain. Virtually every Kain thread out there has "potentials" if the counter-part is prepared to put themselves through the excessive agony that is BTs faulty strategy of debate. There's more fallacies used in his debates than any other I've seen on the Internet.

Keep discussing with him and it will become a long thread. It has nothing to do with Dark Khan or Kain. It has to do with Burning Thought. I have read Burning Thought argue Kain surviving being erased from existence. Attacks that destroy universes. Kill massive cosmic entities in a single blow. Anyone persisting in discussing with him will make the thread long, because he's convinced that Kain is the, or one of the most powerful characters in the world of fiction. All based on usage of fallacies and own interpretations of words and descriptions.

To Burning Thought: I'll not read your response to this, so you don't need to post a reply. I wouldn't consider this bashing (Because I have no intentions of bashing, baiting or anything of the sort), but if you find it as such, you have my approval to report. I'll face my actions and accept the concequences.

I find it fascinating(or saddening) that some people have the time, patience, will, and energy to actually go through with it all and keep it up for literally hundreds of pages.

Much like Burning Thought, some aren't ready to accept defeat. Two tireless entities, both determined that they are right and too proud to back down will keep on going for a very long time. Page after page after page.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Much like Burning Thought, some aren't ready to accept defeat. Two tireless entities, both determined that they are right and too proud to back down will keep on going for a very long time. Page after page after page.

Yeah, but in the end of those threads it's not who has the better argument, it's who can drive away the other through sheer weight of words. It's who can parrot their own(ranging from unfounded to downright pulled out of the ass) arguments and comments for longer.

That really sucks.

Fallacies, misconceptions and misinterpretations. Three reasons why a debate can go on for a very long time

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Fallacies, misconceptions and misinterpretations. Three reasons why a debate can go on for a very long time

It's not necessarily misinterpretations. Some things(like Kain's regulatory powers, for example) are so vague and dubious, that they are open to many interpretations. Ultimately, all of them are equally (in)correct.

I'm not talking about just Kain here. The three words I listed are some of the most common reasons a debate can go on for as long as it does. Especially in a fictional character versus debate. There's a lot of misinterpretations used out there/here

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
I'm not talking about just Kain here. The three words I listed are some of the most common reasons a debate can go on for as long as it does. Especially in a fictional character versus debate. There's a lot of misinterpretations used out there/here

Yeah, I know. I just thought that it was a good example. You have a statement and you can go with it almost wherever the hell you want.

Very true. Lich King has been literally stated "all-powerful", "unlimited power" and "God of Death" by the sole creator of lore. Chris Metzen. Drop a fanboy in the middle of that, and you got yourself a mean killing machine.

I OBJECT to being referred to as a fanboy, the Sephiroth vs Link thread was legit. I do not deny that when I think I'm right I'll argue the other person into submission, via repitition, trolling, posting drunk, and sheer stubborness. Terry had it coming.

I will admit, EG, you made me laugh with the temporary insanity comment, how do you think I felt actually debating with Terry? T_T

No one has called you a fanboy, and there were a lot of people posting in that thread

I still suggest you read the thread, Q. It went on to something retarded like 60 pages... T_T;

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I still suggest you read the thread, Q. It went on to something retarded like 60 pages... T_T;

Dare me to necro?

Xan, go ahead, but if I have to debate with more Sephiroth fans for another 60 pages I WILL END YOU. D:<

Why isn't Kain killed by Sunlight, Garlic, repelled by a Cross, or abnormally weak to wood being stabbed into his heart?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Why isn't Kain killed by Sunlight, Garlic, repelled by a Cross, or abnormally weak to wood being stabbed into his heart?

Because hes not traditional vampire, hes not the typical transylvanian so hes not got these weaknesses although he has evolved past the weakness to sunlight since younger vampires are apprently still weak to it and the cross has no effect on Vamps, merely because in Nosgoth God and Christianity do not actually exist, at least as we know it (there is religion).

And heart? Kain as of now no longer has a heart.

Also ive still not seen this "so many interpretations" of regulation? ive seen so many defintions of it and pretty much all of it is similiar unless you take one of the most obscure defintion talking directly about a Earth based application.

I'm from Finland and a school that didn't even have an English teacher, and even I know that there are more than one useable interpretation of this regulation case (Although I'm with Q on the whole 'Kain doesn't regulate' thing)

Originally posted by Burning thought
Exactley, I did not read it in the scans, which means your the one speculating it.

No because Kain is not neceeserily going to rely on one shield, he has teleportation to escape this effect as well as mist form, which can also be his mode of attack.

Your the one trying to use logic for your own arguments by saying a character can do something it has no done with its powers yet denying me doing the same for Kain....hypocrisy. Whos talking about durability? ime talking about whether this character can effect something of a diffrent material, e.g. vapour, and your telling me this guy turned a physical object into dust, e.g. particles? water do not become dust, they are air and vapour, moisture etc, it sounds like your trying to debate that one guy gets turned into dust so it means just because droplets are less durable they can be transformed into dust? that doesnt even make sense, it sounds to me that your taking advantage of my lack of knowledge on Darksied anyway, if he can just turn a being into dust, why doesnt he just do it to all his opponents? should gain? this is going to haunt you now so i hope you meant to say that, this outlines the fact you dont actually know what this character has so your just pulling abilities from Darksieds shown feats list?

I will look at a Wiki out of interest. We can assume what we like, it does not mean either one is true until we know for certain what this Khan can actually do.

Its compeltlty irrelvent, by defintion as regulator over magic Kain can do these things, its not a power that requires defined scope, the power itself defines the scope. Kain regulations, governs and sets the order over magic, therefore, he merely orders its scope to be beyond Darksied, whats better yet that fortunatley those against Kains power pointed out is that he does it with his own magic, so already his power is such to be able to perform, rule and govern the power that is magic but also the higher bound he places in his regulation for magic, the higher his own bounds are by default.

To throw in an analogy, it would be like you claiming flash can go lightspeed, you providing evidence saying officially and factually he can (lets say for the sake of it, from the developers) then me asking "show me Flash performing lightspeed to the height lightspeed" its ridiculous and does not make sense.

Dark Khan is effectively fighting a being who is omnipotent in the specific magic powers he has access to, which include energy, time, dimension, weather and more.

Basically I'm postponing the discussion until I have found a incident of Dark Khan using the Omega Effect, I suggest that you likewise find a incident with Kain using the Regulation

Originally posted by Obsidian Fury
I'm from Finland and a school that didn't even have an English teacher, and even I know that there are more than one useable interpretation of this regulation case (Although I'm with Q on the whole 'Kain doesn't regulate' thing)

You would be, you are against me as well, yet when you tried to prove ime not objective in the other thread you had to go back several pages to find that you were wrong afterall....

Q and your words being useless and all, I suggest you back those words, those many many words you like to use with some actions, show this regulation, show my apprent "fallacies", and ill probably teach you for free how wrong you are.

(ofc I dont expect you to do anything, youll prob come back with a few more paragraphs of how "wrong" I happen to be, and my "billionz of fallaciez and misinterpretations!"

Originally posted by Utrigita
Kain using the Regulation

I have a higher form of evidence than that, I have the developer saying he has it so I wouldnt need Kain doing it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have a higher form of evidence than that, I have the developer saying he has it so I wouldnt need Kain doing it.

You don't.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I have a higher form of evidence than that, I have the developer saying he has it so I wouldnt need Kain doing it.

Sorry you don't need to see Kain doing it I on the other hand ... as it have previously been discussed the entire quote that you present from the Dark-Chronicles is open to different interpretation. A incident of him doing so wouldn't be open, also I would like to see the interview were Amy Hennig stats that Kain can do what you claim, she was the writer of the story so ofcause she must also be the highest form of Canon

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sorry you don't need to see Kain doing it I on the other hand ... as it have previously been discussed the entire quote that you present from the Dark-Chronicles is open to different interpretation. A incident of him doing so wouldn't be open, also I would like to see the interview were Amy Hennig stats that Kain can do what you claim, she was the writer of the story so ofcause she must also be the highest form of Canon

Ofcourse it would be open, anyone on this forum would find something, they would either scream some sort gameplay, inconsistency, or perhaps try and make a claim that the graphics used did not look like regulation. And regulation is not something you can show anyway, I can claim that half the spells he does is him on a high limit of regulation. I interpret whats said in the Warcraft books all the time diffrently than those showing them to me.

And in the end, none of these interpretations have been shown, can you make some? anyone can interpret something diffrently, from feats to statements.

Well actually Amy Herring did not develop this part of it, Silicon knights did, Amy Herring wrote the story for Soul reaver, Soul reaver 2 and Defiance, the information found in the Blood omen series, especially the first one which my information is from, is Silicon knights.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ofcourse it would be open, anyone on this forum would find something, they would either scream some sort gameplay, inconsistency, or perhaps try and make a claim that the graphics used did not look like regulation. And regulation is not something you can show anyway, I can claim that half the spells he does is him on a high limit of regulation. I interpret whats said in the Warcraft books all the time diffrently than those showing them to me.

And in the end, none of these interpretations have been shown, can you make some? anyone can interpret something diffrently, from feats to statements.

Well actually Amy Herring did not develop this part of it, Silicon knights did, Amy Herring wrote the story for Soul reaver, Soul reaver 2 and Defiance, the information found in the Blood omen series, especially the first one which my information is from, is Silicon knights.

Sure show a instant of a magical attack about to be used on Kain and then show Kain waving his hand ore just smiling and then the spell disappear. Easy. I'm well aware of that.

Have any of your interpretations been shown? No what does this leave both sides with concerning Kain's "unlimited" regulation? Absolutely nothing. And that highly depends on the circumstances in this scan for instance

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Energy%20manipulation/misc/FantasticFour211-15.jpg

It would take a character hate of unlimited degree to say that Galactus didn't transform Terrax into energy. Some things are cut into stone while others are opened to interpretation, Kain's ability to regulate magic that have never been shown ingame in any circumstances neither have it been used by the other Balance Guardians and have only been refered to in a quote on Dark Chronicles is most certainly open to interpretation.

She wrote the story. The Writer of the Story (the one with the ideas etc) is imo significantly above the developers, which works with what they have been given by the Writer. And from what I found she wrote them all.

Originally posted by Utrigita
She wrote the story. The Writer of the Story (the one with the ideas etc) is imo significantly above the developers, which works with what they have been given by the Writer. And from what I found she wrote them all.

This is very true. For example: Warcraft developers don't know a portion of the lore as Metzen does. They have openly admitted that they can be wrong, and often has been wrong when asked something. The developers can say one thing, but it's open for interpretation (Because their word is not law. It is not definate). Chris Metzen retconed the lore retcon of World of Warcraft because the developers had gotten it wrong.

Developers only develop the game. They aren't the omniscient narrators.

The statement I believe was that:

"Their role was a regulatory one, and their magic influenced others' in Nosgoth".

Can you honestly not think of another meaning for this other than "Kain is nigh-omnipotent"?

Even Dark-Chronicle says: "It is unclear what the future will hold for Kain as the purified Guardian of Balance, and what his role as Scion of Balance actually entails".

"The role of the Balance Guardians was a reglatory one; their magic influenced the regulation of the other magic in Nosgoth. We can identify three Balance Guardians, pictured above."

Burning Thought is seeing what he wants to see. Not what's actually written. Kain is NOT a regulator. Magic itself is. Kain only influence regulation. Which can mean a lot, since not even the word regulation itself has a definate meaning, and he's only influencing the unclear word regulate. So there's a double fallacy involved.


Influencing regulation is: You enter your car. You find it too hot inside, so you turn on the AC. The AC cool the car down, and you're more comfortable in it. At that point, you have influenced a regulative force. You didn't do the actual regulation. The actual regulation was done by the AC who degree by degree cooled the car down.

Burning Thought can claim what he wants. His definition of Kain and the regulation is not even the first definition a dictionary would give, or a professor of the English language.
Burning Thought looks at the most propriate definition for him and for Kain in order for Kain to win the debate.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
"The role of the Balance Guardians was a reglatory one; their magic influenced the regulation of the other magic in Nosgoth. We can identify three Balance Guardians, pictured above."

Burning Thought is seeing what he wants to see. Not what's actually written. Kain is NOT a regulator. Magic itself is. Kain only influence regulation. Which can mean a lot, since not even the word regulation itself has a definate meaning, and he's only influencing the unclear word regulate.


Influencing regulation is: You enter your car. You find it too hot inside, so you turn on the AC. The AC cool the car down, and you're more comfortable in it. At that point, you have influenced a regulative force. You didn't do the actual regulation. The actual regulation was done by the AC who degree by degree cooled the car down.

Burning Thought can claim what he wants. His definition of Kain and the regulation is not even the first definition a dictionary would give, or a professor of the English language.
Burning Thought looks at the most propriate definition for him and for Kain in order for Kain to win the debate.

True, it says 'influenced' instead of 'controlled', but I'm willing to let it slide, since ultimately you're the one in charge of the car and its conditioning system.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
True, it says 'influenced' instead of 'controlled', but I'm willing to let it slide, since ultimately you're the one in charge of the car and its conditioning system.

Indirectly in control. You're not the one regulating (Which is a BIG difference from regulating. Influencing and actually regulating has a huge gap between the two). You can only partially control the temperature and the rate, and not even necessarily with the precision or extent that you desire.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Sure show a instant of a magical attack about to be used on Kain and then show Kain waving his hand ore just smiling and then the spell disappear. Easy. I'm well aware of that.

Have any of your interpretations been shown? No what does this leave both sides with concerning Kain's "unlimited" regulation? Absolutely nothing. And that highly depends on the circumstances in this scan for instance

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff240/Branlactus/Energy%20manipulation/misc/FantasticFour211-15.jpg

It would take a character hate of unlimited degree to say that Galactus didn't transform Terrax into energy. Some things are cut into stone while others are opened to interpretation, Kain's ability to regulate magic that have never been shown ingame in any circumstances neither have it been used by the other Balance Guardians and have only been refered to in a quote on Dark Chronicles is most certainly open to interpretation.

She wrote the story. The Writer of the Story (the one with the ideas etc) is imo significantly above the developers, which works with what they have been given by the Writer. And from what I found she wrote them all.

Thats only a form of regulation....as I said, him doing any spell could be him regulatng his powers to a lesser degree, but it really doesnt matter, him showing it is irrelvent when his developers say he can do.

No it leaves my side with the Developers backing me up and my oppositions denile slumped.

I could interpret that easily, I could interpret that Galactus can only seemingly do that to his heralds who he has given their power, since he emphasises how Terrax is a herald given power by him as he does it and throughout.

Its not open to interpretation because in truth its a single word that gives Kain all this power, regulation, and regulation has very few interpretations if any at all and by the seeming fact that nobody so far has given a diffrent legit interpretation its pretty clear there likely is not, only someone with a lot of Kain hate to an unlimited degree could interpret that magic regulation does not give kain the practicle power to make himself nigh omnipotent

Ime not even sure of that? where did you find that information? as i said, the developers who made Blood omen and who this came from are not Eidios who made Soul reaver which Amy herring is typically from.

Either way, unless she had written something that says otherwise, then ime afraid all of this "developers are not as believable as the writers" is irrelvent, simply because the Developers are definaltey far above the players, and everyone this forum combined in authority in their characters.

And Q'Anilia your being ridiculous, this influence is from Kain alone, Kain is doing the influence, the magic is also his....so Kain influences regulation with his magic into infnitiy then if it makes you happy....

Regulation is quite a clear defintion in all dictionaries ive read currently and it clearly points out Kain is in control and orders magic, therefore, he wishes it to be infnite for himself.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Indirectly in control. You're not the one regulating (Which is a BIG difference from regulating. Influencing and actually regulating has a huge gap between the two). You can only partially control the temperature and the rate, and not even necessarily with the precision or extent that you desire.

I guess the finer point of this analogy of yours would be that you can't set the temperature of the car to infinity.

You cant imply a limt on Kains regulation just because a component in a car is called a Regulator, its a flawed human item which doesnt really regulate, govern, or control heat, it just influences the temperature, wheras the quote actually says Kains magic succeeds in regulation.

Oops wrong thread

Originally posted by Burning thought
You cant imply a limt on Kains regulation just because a component in a car is called a Regulator, its a flawed human item which doesnt really regulate, govern, or control heat, it just influences the temperature, wheras the quote actually says Kains magic succeeds in regulation.

It doesn't regulate it in the sense you think, it influences(remember the statement now) the air inside of the car, but that's still one definition for regulation.

Originally posted by Burning thought
You cant imply a limt on Kains regulation just because a component in a car is called a Regulator, its a flawed human item which doesnt really regulate, govern, or control heat, it just influences the temperature, wheras the quote actually says Kains magic succeeds in regulation. Oh no! It's the LOK zealot!

Hide your favorite characters everyone, or he'll make a thread in which Kain the Omnipotent brutally rapes and murders them!

j/k, I am being such a troll. Hi BT. Remember me?

Its not a defintion, its just the name of an object inside a car....its not an actual defintion unlike:

http://www.investorwords.com/5950/regulation.html





http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regulation




Oxford: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxgulation?view=uk



And influence means little, the fact Kains magic influences regulation of magic means little....Its just pointed out what he uses to succeed in his regulation.

Edit wrong thread. I am such a tard.

No one is acknowledging my presence.

Hurry, I need attention.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Its not a defintion, its just the name of an object inside a car....its not an actual defintion unlike:

http://www.investorwords.com/5950/regulation.html





http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regulation




Oxford: http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxgulation?view=uk



And influence means little, the fact Kains magic influences regulation of magic means little....Its just pointed out what he uses to succeed in his regulation.

And Kain is just a person called Regulator or Scion of Balance(whatever that means, nobody knows).

None of these definitions say it can be done to an infinite degree. A force of law cannot control anything to an infinite degree, a person who regulates traffic in a street cannot make the traffic stop altogether worldwide or make it disappear entirely, or increase the traffic beyond what it already is.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
I wonder how Kain got into this discussion... :looks at BT:

No one is acknowledging my presence.

Hurry, I need attention.

What? Who the hell are you?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
What? Who the hell are you? A dumb ass. Ignore me. I was posting in the wrong thread.

BTW Kain is basically vampire-god, so he wins.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Thats only a form of regulation....as I said, him doing any spell could be him regulatng his powers to a lesser degree, but it really doesnt matter, him showing it is irrelvent when his developers say he can do.

No it leaves my side with the Developers backing me up and my oppositions denile slumped.

I could interpret that easily, I could interpret that Galactus can only seemingly do that to his heralds who he has given their power, since he emphasises how Terrax is a herald given power by him as he does it and throughout.

Its not open to interpretation because in truth its a single word that gives Kain all this power, regulation, and regulation has very few interpretations if any at all and by the seeming fact that nobody so far has given a diffrent legit interpretation its pretty clear there likely is not, only someone with a lot of Kain hate to an unlimited degree could interpret that magic regulation does not give kain the practicle power to make himself nigh omnipotent

Ime not even sure of that? where did you find that information? as i said, the developers who made Blood omen and who this came from are not Eidios who made Soul reaver which Amy herring is typically from.

Either way, unless she had written something that says otherwise, then ime afraid all of this "developers are not as believable as the writers" is irrelvent, simply because the Developers are definaltey far above the players, and everyone this forum combined in authority in their characters.

It is still regulation, it should given how certain you are in you case be fairly easy to prove. So the developers have said that he can Freeze time on a universal scale and have unlimited access to magic, I would very much like to see that, not that it really changes alot imho, since if the developers had that view on Kain he would have used it against he Old God.

Then show us this quote that stats that Kain can do what you claim he can (regulate all forms on magic from other Characters even those not from Nosgoth, universal Freeze time etc), I would like the main site, preferebly from a interview which the leading developer, not a nobody.

If would be nice if it wasn't for the fact that Galactus also does this.

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h3pu4.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h6js1.jpg

But I'm sure that if one is signifactly thickheaded you can keep ignoring evidence that isn't open for Interpretation.

So the fact that it's Galactus herald makes it subject to interpretation but a lone quote that have absolutely on it from any game in the series can't? Inlogical. If you can interpretate Galactus showing as you want, then I'm most certainly free to do so aswell. The quote never says that Kain has unlimited access to regulation of Magic. It stats that Kain has the ability to influence the amount of magic in the world, influence isn't regulation. And there is still no evidence from ingame that in any supports that Kain is capable of doing what you want him to do.

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html

Done.

Sure the developers is above the players, but the writer of the story will always be above the developer, else it would be like saying the drawer in marvel has more influence on the story then the writer which in itself is hilarious.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
And Kain is just a person called Regulator or Scion of Balance(whatever that means, nobody knows).

None of these definitions say it can be done to an infinite degree. A force of law cannot control anything to an infinite degree, a person who regulates traffic in a street cannot make the traffic stop altogether worldwide or make it disappear entirely, or increase the traffic beyond what it already is.

No, ime sorry but hes not called it, the direct statement says he DOES the regulation with his magical influence...

Your choosing examples that have direct limits based on human actions and possibilities, the defintions all point out that its government, law, and if Kains regulation creates the law of magic to be infnite for himself, its got no reason not to...its not an angry car owner who wants to continue onwards.

The defintion is quite clear, you trying to label them on human affairs is not and is quite redundant and pointless.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Your choosing examples that have direct limits based on human actions and possibilities.
What other sort of example could he choose? Is there reason to believe that Kain's influence is infinite?

Originally posted by Utrigita
It is still regulation, it should given how certain you are in you case be fairly easy to prove. So the developers have said that he can Freeze time on a universal scale and have unlimited access to magic, I would very much like to see that, not that it really changes alot imho, since if the developers had that view on Kain he would have used it against he Old God.

Then show us this quote that stats that Kain can do what you claim he can (regulate all forms on magic from other Characters even those not from Nosgoth, universal Freeze time etc), I would like the main site, preferebly from a interview which the leading developer, not a nobody.

If would be nice if it wasn't for the fact that Galactus also does this.

http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h3pu4.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=h6js1.jpg

But I'm sure that if one is signifactly thickheaded you can keep ignoring evidence that isn't open for Interpretation.

So the fact that it's Galactus herald makes it subject to interpretation but a lone quote that have absolutely on it from any game in the series can't? Inlogical. If you can interpretate Galactus showing as you want, then I'm most certainly free to do so aswell. The quote never says that Kain has unlimited access to regulation of Magic. It stats that Kain has the ability to influence the amount of magic in the world, influence isn't regulation. And there is still no evidence from ingame that in any supports that Kain is capable of doing what you want him to do.

http://www.thelostworlds.net/Defiance/Question_and_Answer_with_Amy_Hennig.html

Done.

Sure the developers is above the players, but the writer of the story will always be above the developer, else it would be like saying the drawer in marvel has more influence on the story then the writer which in itself is hilarious.


I can claim PIS for the Elder God, or I can claim "we didnt see the canon fight" or I can claim the same for Dark Khan, hell Dark Khan, why didnt you turn all your opponents into dust.....

He doesnt need to be directly stated to affect others, it just claims regulation which is what ime stating he can do, nothing more. And the links are on the Dark Chronicle website.

lol now your just saying you have to be thick to make a diffrent interpretation on that? yes well, I think you have to be a shit for brains little bastard to try and misinterpret the quote on Darkchronicle

no not really.....your case makes no sense at all...the fact its only excisted for Kain at the end of the last game sort of crushes all that "zomg not in another game" thing, as does a developer statement no ime sorry but if you read it, he influences the regulation of magic with his magic, so using defintions from Oxford (you used this one dont you?) and others Kain rules and maintains and controls the conduct of magic while also controlling it as if he was the authority over its force and law.

Therefore he commands magic literally to be infnitly powerful in his hands, and worthless in his opponents.

That does not tell me she wrote Blood omen or that she was apart of Silicon knights.

yes the writer will, unfortunatley the writer does not disagree or write anything to contradict the developers, so now we just have Developers>>>you guys.....

Originally posted by Burning thought
You cant imply a limt on Kains regulation just because a component in a car is called a Regulator, its a flawed human item which doesnt really regulate, govern, or control heat, it just influences the temperature, wheras the quote actually says Kains magic succeeds in regulation.

Are you really this uneducated with the English language, or are you so blinded by your determination to not be wrong? I'm guessing English is not your birth language. I don't know where you're from, but that's how it seems to me. I don't mean this post in an insulting manner. I'm just saying that it appears as if you don't know the word regulate as well as you seem to think you do.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No, ime sorry but hes not called it, the direct statement says he DOES the regulation with his magical influence...

Your choosing examples that have direct limits based on human actions and possibilities, the defintions all point out that its government, law, and if Kains regulation creates the law of magic to be infnite for himself, its got no reason not to...its not an angry car owner who wants to continue onwards.

The defintion is quite clear, you trying to label them on human affairs is not and is quite redundant and pointless.

I'm using something called 'analogies' and until you whip out something that actually states that Kain can regulate to an infinite degree, this is going to have to suffice.

Who the hell passes "laws" on magic anyway? Has it ever even been stated or shown that Nosgoth guardians can pass laws on something like magic?

Regulation doesn't mean something can be regulated to an infinite degree. Simple as that. And until you find substantial proof that Kain can do it, it's nothing more than a no-limits fallacy.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Are you really this uneducated with the English language, or are you so blinded by your determination to not be wrong? I'm guessing English is not your birth language. I don't know where you're from, but that's how it seems to me. I don't mean this post in an insulting manner. I'm just saying that it appears as if you don't know the word regulate as well as you seem to think you do. Yeah, I think he's a foreigner.

Where are you from BT?

@ Q'Anilia:-Well I am sorry but the 3 dictionaries I posted disagree with your.....oh...zero dictionaries, just word of mouth...that you use quite a lot (or on this forum, fingers) to blabber on without action or evidence, stop spamming this thread please, its most annoying.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well I am sorry but the 3 dictionaries I posted disagree with your.....oh...zero dictionaries, just word of mouth...that you use quite a lot (or on this forum, fingers) to blabber on without action or evidence, stop spamming this thread please, its most annoying. Is this comment directed at me? I really hope it is.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I'm using something called 'analogies' and until you whip out something that actually states that Kain can regulate to an infinite degree, this is going to have to suffice.

Who the hell passes "laws" on magic anyway? Has it ever even been stated or shown that Nosgoth guardians can pass laws on something like magic?

Regulation doesn't mean something can be regulated to an infinite degree. Simple as that. And until you find substantial proof that Kain can do it, it's nothing more than a no-limits fallacy.

Well not really, the degree is irrelvent when your the guy who makes the laws and governs the subject matter (magic) unfortunatley for you. Your analogies are redundant.

Who passes laws? I think your taking the idea of a law too literally here. As the quote says however, they regulate e.g. command, control, have authority, can conduct the use of yadda yadda yadda magic.

Ofcourse it does, by defintion that is the practical use of regulation, your taking the limits of human technology and analogies your making too closely, the defintion disagrees. The no limits fallacy would only exist if regulation was a limt, thing is by defintion he is this powerful.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well not really, the degree is irrelvent when your the guy who makes the laws and governs the subject matter (magic) unfortunatley for you. Your analogies are redundant.

Who passes laws? I think your taking the idea of a law too literally here. As the quote says however, they regulate e.g. command, control, have authority, can conduct the use of yadda yadda yadda magic.

Ofcourse it does, by defintion that is the practical use of regulation, your taking the limits of human technology and analogies your making too closely, the defintion disagrees. The no limits fallacy would only exist if regulation was a limt, thing is by defintion he is this powerful. BT, your punctuation sucks, but, I understand exactly what you mean. Kain makes the rules, so basically, he can't be beat, right? Am I barking up the right tree?

Magically he cannot, there...I did it...I gave you some attension now will you please leave this thread alone and stop spamming nonsense?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well not really, the degree is irrelvent when your the guy who makes the laws and governs the subject matter (magic) unfortunatley for you. Your analogies are redundant.

Who passes laws? I think your taking the idea of a law too literally here. As the quote says however, they regulate e.g. command, control, have authority, can conduct the use of yadda yadda yadda magic.

Ofcourse it does, by defintion that is the practical use of regulation, your taking the limits of human technology and analogies your making too closely, the defintion disagrees. The no limits fallacy would only exist if regulation was a limt, thing is by defintion he is this powerful.

Oh, the degree is still very, very relevant.

Even if you have authority over something, it STILL doesn't mean you can do whatever to an unlimited degree.

Even regulation itself can be limited. And that's just one way to interpret the statement.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Magically he cannot, there...I did it...I gave you some attension now will you please leave this thread alone and stop spamming nonsense? Wow. That was great. Thanks BT.

Sorry for spamming. I won't do it anymore, I swear.

BTW I think you're right.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Wow. That was great. Thanks BT.

Sorry for spamming. I won't do it anymore, I swear.

BTW I think you're right.

Man, you're weird.

Originally posted by Burning thought
@ Q'Anilia:-Well I am sorry but the 3 dictionaries I posted disagree with your.....oh...zero dictionaries, just word of mouth...that you use quite a lot (or on this forum, fingers) to blabber on without action or evidence, stop spamming this thread please, its most annoying.

I can post the same quotes that you did, and it would still contradict your definition of the word. The fact that you fail at understanding the width of the word and the English language makes any attempt to give you a link stating the state of regulating futile. The existential fallacies in your ways of debate can not be fought, so I never bother trying to prove anything to you.

It's a waste of time, and not because you can be wrong, but because you can be right.
(Your fallacy apply to this sentence as well, if you focus hard enough at the words)

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Oh, the degree is still very, very relevant.

Even if you have authority over something, it STILL doesn't mean you can do whatever to an unlimited degree.

Even regulation itself can be limited. And that's just one way to interpret the statement.

Ofcourse it does, if you can govern, control, conduct the law of magic itself with your own, and be successful (thats what the quote itself actuall claims, thats what the Guardians actually do). Your talking about people and objects disagreeing or disobeying the laws, which magic obvioulsy being an inanimate object which cant actually cause any problem or influence itself can do.

Depends, so far youve used names people have slapped on things, a temperature regulator for example......its just a name of an object, not a defintion.

It says Kain regulates magic which means all these things the defintions tell us, considering magic has no resistance to regulation nor do the beings he regulates and ofc, he wouldnt resist himself so his own power could be regulated to infnity then its obvious I am correct.

One more spam! (last one BT, I promise.)

Q'Anilia, I really admire the way you are standing up to BT's tyranny. You deal with his mind-numbing logical lightning bolts and pseudo-English yet you keep coming back for more. I really feel obligated to commend you on your resolve and determination. Kudos.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ofcourse it does, if you can govern, control, conduct the law of magic itself with your own, and be successful (thats what the quote itself actuall claims, thats what the Guardians actually do). Your talking about people and objects disagreeing or disobeying the laws, which magic obvioulsy being an inanimate object which cant actually cause any problem or influence itself can do.

Depends, so far youve used names people have slapped on things, a temperature regulator for example......its just a name of an object, not a defintion.

It says Kain regulates magic which means all these things the defintions tell us, considering magic has no resistance to regulation nor do the beings he regulates and ofc, he wouldnt resist himself so his own power could be regulated to infnity then its obvious I am correct.

Now you're just using strawmen and mental gymnastics.

Obviously we slap names on everything. Remember, LoK is a fictional universe, created by people like you and me, who live in the same world as we do and are familiar with the same concepts and definitions as we are. Them slapping a name on something like a car conditioner or a character they invented makes little difference.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I can claim PIS for the Elder God, or I can claim "we didnt see the canon fight" or I can claim the same for Dark Khan, hell Dark Khan, why didnt you turn all your opponents into dust.....

He doesnt need to be directly stated to affect others, it just claims regulation which is what ime stating he can do, nothing more. And the links are on the Dark Chronicle website.

lol now your just saying you have to be thick to make a diffrent interpretation on that? yes well, I think you have to be a shit for brains little bastard to try and misinterpret the quote on Darkchronicle

no not really.....your case makes no sense at all...the fact its only excisted for Kain at the end of the last game sort of crushes all that "zomg not in another game" thing, as does a developer statement no ime sorry but if you read it, he influences the regulation of magic with his magic, so using defintions from Oxford (you used this one dont you?) and others Kain rules and maintains and controls the conduct of magic while also controlling it as if he was the authority over its force and law.

Therefore he commands magic literally to be infnitly powerful in his hands, and worthless in his opponents.

That does not tell me she wrote Blood omen or that she was apart of Silicon knights.

yes the writer will, unfortunatley the writer does not disagree or write anything to contradict the developers, so now we just have Developers>>>you guys.....

Nothing from the developers and yet you continue to referee to them?

Dark Kahn did enough when he used his power to erase beings from across two universes seperately. "The force of My anger rips through both universes, many beings vanish from existance", now you are free to interprete this any way you want, you have like the rest of us the freedom of speech.

So what we have is you cooking soup on a bone with no meat?

You want to make the case that Galactus didn't transmute Hercules? Be my guest and make a thread in the comic section So the quote on Dark Chronicles (which isn't the official website of the game nore is it a interview) secondly the notation for the quote is down.

First of what do you choose to focus on in the given quote? I focus on Influence because to me it's painfully obvious that, that's what is being refered to. Remember that is stat that their magic allow them to influence the Regulation, not control the regulation there is a huge difference. Secondly you are misunderstanding exactly in what perspective Regulation is used. If we take the first example used by Oxford (which I like to use yes) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxgulation?view=uk It requires that in order for the authority to have any given ability to maintain the law, it requires power, look at Pakistan for instance they want to regulate Taliban yet failed, they then applied force yet they can't quell them because they doesn't have a force large enough to operate on such a large front.

Where does it stat that he can access infinite magic? Nowhere.

She speaks about Blood Omen and explain how the Blood Omen worked and what happened in them, why would they ask her question concerning a product that she according to you had no influence on, that is like asking Morrison what he meant by having the Fantastic Four doing this and that in a recently published comic while he is writing Superman in DC.

Did I say she did? I merely pointed out the Writer is above the Developers. And she does stat that the Scion of Balance has absolutely nothing to do with Kain being Balance Guardian.

Oh, and you too ArtificialGlory. Sorry if I alienated you.

Careful. BT is a world-class mental gymnast. Fight on.

Edit: Shit, I forgot you too Galactus guy. You are a noble, virtuous person taking on an arduous task. Godspeed.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Oh, and you too ArtificialGlory. Sorry if I alienated you.

Careful. BT is a world-class mental gymnast. Fight on.

Edit: Shit, I forgot you too Galactus guy. You are a noble, virtuous person taking on an arduous task. Godspeed.

You know, you're starting to grow on me.

Either way is a skrue uden ende. Sorry didn't have the english words. Basically a endless discussion.

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
You know, you're starting to grow on me. Sorry about that.

It probably won't require any sort of antibiotic.

I won't be around here too often, though, so don't fret.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Either way is a skrue uden ende. Sorry didn't have the english words. Basically a endless discussion.

I know. Creepy, stalker-ish vibes is exactly what this thread needs right now.

On a brighter note, my Sims 3 have finished downloading. It's time to go and torture some virtual people.

Originally posted by Utrigita
Either way is a skrue uden ende. Sorry didn't have the english words. Basically a endless discussion.

The existential fallacy. A false quantificational notion (A double-fallacy. A quantificational existential fallacy).

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
On a brighter note, my Sims 3 have finished downloading. It's time to go and torture some virtual people.



Enjoy!!!

Originally posted by Utrigita
Either way is a skrue uden ende. Sorry didn't have the english words. Basically a endless discussion. That is what one must prepare himself for when facing the Burner of Thoughts! The Incinerator of Id! I daresay, the Immolator of Consciousness! Do you now know fear? Kneel, I say! Kneel before his fiery majesty!

Edit: Wow... I just realized. I'd better stop before BT gets miffed. Please BT, don't get pissed at me. You are awesome, though. This forum would be lame without you.

That's enough. It's baiting (At the very least) and a reportable offense.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
That's enough. It's baiting (At the very least) and a reportable offense. I just said that.

Look at my edit.

Edit: Pardon my ignorance, and if you don't mind my asking, what country is represented by that flag the smiley in your signature is waving? Is that your homeland?

http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm76/RayRaySerza5/Avatars/FuuFacePalm.gif

You edited with another sentence open for interpretation as baiting.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm76/RayRaySerza5/Avatars/FuuFacePalm.gif

You edited with another sentence open for interpretation as baiting.

http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/a/a8/Worf_notagain.gif

Originally posted by Utrigita
Nothing from the developers and yet you continue to referee to them?

Dark Kahn did enough when he used his power to erase beings from across two universes seperately. "The force of My anger rips through both universes, many beings vanish from existance", now you are free to interprete this any way you want, you have like the rest of us the freedom of speech.

So what we have is you cooking soup on a bone with no meat?

You want to make the case that Galactus didn't transmute Hercules? Be my guest and make a thread in the comic section So the quote on Dark Chronicles (which isn't the official website of the game nore is it a interview) secondly the notation for the quote is down.

First of what do you choose to focus on in the given quote? I focus on Influence because to me it's painfully obvious that, that's what is being refered to. Remember that is stat that their magic allow them to influence the Regulation, not control the regulation there is a huge difference. Secondly you are misunderstanding exactly in what perspective Regulation is used. If we take the first example used by Oxford (which I like to use yes) http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/orexxgulation?view=uk It requires that in order for the authority to have any given ability to maintain the law, it requires power, look at Pakistan for instance they want to regulate Taliban yet failed, they then applied force yet they can't quell them because they doesn't have a force large enough to operate on such a large front.

Where does it stat that he can access infinite magic? Nowhere.

She speaks about Blood Omen and explain how the Blood Omen worked and what happened in them, why would they ask her question concerning a product that she according to you had no influence on, that is like asking Morrison what he meant by having the Fantastic Four doing this and that in a recently published comic while he is writing Superman in DC.

Did I say she did? I merely pointed out the Writer is above the Developers. And she does stat that the Scion of Balance has absolutely nothing to do with Kain being Balance Guardian.

What do you mean? the only quote ime using is from the Developers.

Yes, he also claims that the merging imprisons him and causes pain to him which leads me to believe he didnt cause the merge at all.

No you have the Developers telling you something and you denying just because Kains not done it in the last 20 minutes of his game.

Why would anyone claim he transmuted someone when it clearly shows him blasting the being to slime.....

No its painfully obvious that the quote directly states that not only do Balance guardians cause hte regulation through their magical influence but it also states that they succeed in it, your listing examples where the regulation has failed.....which are redundant anyway because your talking about human problems that resist the regulation, magic is inanimate and has no resistance at all, Kain can control and order it without any resistance, if you have a government or law, that is not resisting and cannot they are the power, they hold the power, they are the power and they can govern it.

Magic is like energy, theres no such thing as a limit to magic, jsut like theres no such thing as a limit to energy, it just transforms in energies case. Thing is, Kain could just dictate through his governing authority that his magic does not require hardly any power to perform godlike feats while making the opposite on his opponent.

They ask her because shes apart of the series and wrote recent stories, she probably has access to Blood omen scrpit as well....does not mean she wrote the original blood omen.

wtf no she doesnt, she states that Kain was both, Scion of balance and Balance Guardian....



Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Now you're just using strawmen and mental gymnastics.

Obviously we slap names on everything. Remember, LoK is a fictional universe, created by people like you and me, who live in the same world as we do and are familiar with the same concepts and definitions as we are. Them slapping a name on something like a car conditioner or a character they invented makes little difference.

lol what? I didnt Strawman...

Yes but Regulator isnt Kains name, its a description for him, so I would rather measure this power hes given through the actual defintion than the effectiveness of a Cars temperature regulator just because it has "Regulator" in it.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia

You edited with another sentence open for interpretation as baiting. Well as I once said. I amOriginally posted by Cosmic Cube
A dumb ass.
and that excuses me from any such liability. So please don't report. And please answer my question.

Originally posted by Burning thought
No you have the Developers telling you something and you denying just because Kains not done it in the last 20 minutes of his game.

Developers can be wrong, that's why he's not swallowing it. Even if they could be right and their words accurate, nothing says you are.

Originally posted by Burning thought
lol what? I didnt Strawman...

Yes but Regulator isnt Kains name, its a description for him, so I would rather measure this power hes given through the actual defintion than the effectiveness of a Cars temperature regulator just because it has "Regulator" in it.

Air Conditioner's name obviously also isn't Regulator. Regulation of air temperature is what it does, so it's also its description.

I've yet to see a definition that says that regulatory powers entitles anyone who has them to infinite power in their respective field.

If I said, "Damnit BT, stop arguing with these nut-smokers, you're right." (and I am NOT saying that), would that be baiting him, or you guys?

BTW Kain is the regulator, though, and he does make the laws, so BT is kinda right.

I think you guys just don't respect him because of his poor English.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Edit: Pardon my ignorance, and if you don't mind my asking, what country is represented by that flag the smiley in your signature is waving? Is that your homeland?

It's Finland finland Country of birth and upgrowth

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
It's Finland finland Country of birth and upgrowth You're Finnish!? That is so awesome! I thought you were going to say Sri Lanka, or some other frightening country whose flag I'm not familiar with!

I am SO jealous. No fair.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
If I said, "Damnit BT, stop arguing with these nut-smokers, you're right." (and I am NOT saying that), would that be baiting him, or you guys?

BTW Kain is the regulator, though, and he does make the laws, so BT is kinda right.

I think you guys just don't respect him because of his poor English.

That would be baiting us, given your namecalling.

Not sure you've been paying attention. That's an existential fallacy. We don't know what the tooltip actually means. Burning Thought (And you apparently) has decided that you are right, and that your interpretation is the correct one, thus' creating the existential fallacy.

His poor English has nothing to do with it (Which for the record isn't necessarily poor. Merely insufficient). It's him failing at complete understanding of the word that leads to us having this conversation to begin with.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
You're Finnish!? That is so awesome! I thought you were going to say Sri Lanka, or some other frightening country whose flag I'm not familiar with!

I am SO jealous. No fair.

Totuuden, runon kotimaa