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Shit like this really pisses me off and not the fact that I'm an Atheist but more for the fact that this is elitism in the highest order. Yes was this country founded on some of the Christian principles yes but it was also founded on many other religious beliefs and non-beliefs as well. To say we are a Christian nation is saying a big FU to everyone that is not Christian and the last time I check this is supposed to be a country of all and not a county of one religion. It is like saying that we are a Christian nation but we will allow you to practice you heathen religion here but your religion is not part of this nation because it is a CHRISTIAN nation. Grow up, it would be the same as saying that England was built from the ruling class so England is the nation of Kings so let us all go back to a ruling monarchy. Give me a break.

dpQOCvthw-o

OMG I just barfed. Seriously. If anyone did their research they'd have found that a ton of founding fathers were clearly NOT christians.

Gotta admit it is swarming with Christians.

just because it was founded by christians doesnt mean it is solely represents the christian ideal, i dont know but i heard not everyone was christians and some where even athiest. saying that we are a christian nation is just as insulting as being called an infidel or gentile by other religious ppl which i call fanatics. just for calling other ppl those names.

John Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."


Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."


James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."


Thomas Jefferson:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."


Benjamin Franklin:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

yes...we all know the US is full of stupid/uninformed bigots.

You know that America wasn't founded on Christianity, and now there is a lot of Christianity in America now. Well, when did the point of there being little Christianity end, and the point where there being lots of christianity begin?

Originally posted by lord xyz
You know that America wasn't founded on Christianity, and now there is a lot of Christianity in America now. Well, when did the point of there being little Christianity end, and the point where there being lots of christianity begin?

Where did you go to school?

At the time when the US was formed, the idea of an atheist was unheard of. All of the founders were Christian in one way or another, and to one degree or another. The US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. However, these people saw first hand how wrong a nation can be when religion and government are mixed like what was happening in England at the time. They intentionally set out to make this country (US) to not be a Christian nation, but one based on the principles of Christianity. This distinction makes all the difference in the world.

Where did you go to school?

The intent was not to have a nation based on the principles of Christianity, but based on the laws and principles of the Enlightenment. A lot of these principles were rooted in or justified with religious rhetoric, just as many of the concepts and laws of the US were deliberately separated from any direct religious overtones.

Like most things, its a conglomeration of HISTORICAL influence, non-influence, and justification. Obama justifies community values (brotherhood, etc) using Christianity, but that doesn't make them Christian concepts, or even if you portray them that way, exclusively Christian. Such is the lineage of modern democracy (thank you Scotland).

Originally posted by Ordo
Where did you go to school?

The intent was not to have a nation based on the principles of Christianity, but based on the laws and principles of the Enlightenment. A lot of these principles were rooted in or justified with religious rhetoric, just as many of the concepts and laws of the US were deliberately separated from any direct religious overtones.

Like most things, its a conglomeration of HISTORICAL influence, non-influence, and justification. Obama justifies community values (brotherhood, etc) using Christianity, but that doesn't make them Christian concepts, or even if you portray them that way, exclusively Christian. Such is the lineage of modern democracy (thank you Scotland).

Where did you go to school?

Enlightenment? Natural Law? These are all terms used to describe Christian principles. When we say enlightenment or natural law today it has a completely different meaning then it did 200 years ago. I think you are getting the past confused with the present. We have choices today that the people of the past did not even conceive of.

Now I bet you are going to go off on some esoteric rant about how basic concepts cannot be contributed to a particular religion. Again that is a modern idea that does not apply to what was in the mind of the founders.

However, we do not live 200 years ago, we live now. The idea that we have to close our eyes to modern concepts just because our founders did not share those ideas is short sided and ignorant.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Where did you go to school?

Enlightenment? Natural Law? These are all terms used to describe Christian principles. When we say enlightenment or natural law today it has a completely different meaning then it did 200 years ago. I think you are getting the past confused with the present. We have choices today that the people of the past did not even conceive of.

Now I bet you are going to go off on some esoteric rant about how basic concepts cannot be contributed to a particular religion. Again that is a modern idea that does not apply to what was in the mind of the founders.

However, we do not live 200 years ago, we live now. The idea that we have to close our eyes to modern concepts just because our founders did not share those ideas is short sided and ignorant.

You tell me that we should not close our eyes to modern concepts, but that my argument is wrong because I'm using a modern meaning instead of the old one?

Sounds fishy to me...

Newton used gravity to justify his Christian faith and vice versa. What I'm saying that using a religion as part of the RATIONALE for an argument does not infact make that argument a religious one. Equal rights for white landowning males of a certain age was partially justified using Christianity...as were things like natural laws. However, that does not mean that the "US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles." Instead, it was founded on concepts justified by Judeo-Christian principles. These same concepts can be justified (as you pointed out) a number of given ways today. What I have pointed out is an important distinction.

Regardless, i think you are also over-simplyfying things. The United States is clearly NOT founded on the Christian RELIGION...this is different from PRINCIPLES, which is a distinction often overlooked in this argument. Also, many Christians today would not consider Deism to be a form of Christianity...thats debatable imo...and there was a broad range of religious beliefs among those "founding fathers." Today, some would be considered more atheist or simply spiritual than Christian...since a lot of these lines are blurry anyway.

Originally posted by Ordo
You tell me that we should not close our eyes to modern concepts, but that my argument is wrong because I'm using a modern meaning instead of the old one?

No, you got it wrong. Don't rewrite history.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All of the founders were Christian in one way or another, and to one degree or another.

Actually a ton of them were deists who completely abhorred Christianity.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Actually a ton of them were deists who completely abhorred Christianity.

Please point them out.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please point them out.

Well:

Originally posted by King Kandy
John Adams:

"The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
absurdity."

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."


Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."


James Madison:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."


Thomas Jefferson:

"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."


Benjamin Franklin:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Please point them out.
I made one post in this thread prior to that and it's purpose was to show at least four anti-christian founding fathers. Of them Thomas Paine was the most radical, he said all sorts of things about how christianity was a complete abomination and the sort.

I mean come on Shaky, this wasn't the middle ages... since the 1600s there were tons of intellectuals who rejected christianity, and in the enlightenment they were becoming super popular. I mean the French Revolutionary government was completely anti-christian and deism was really quite popular. Your arguments might ring true if we were talking say the 1400s, but by the 1700s rejection of christianity was by no means as unthinkable as you make it seem.

Originally posted by King Kandy
I made one post in this thread prior to that and it's purpose was to show at least four anti-christian founding fathers. Of them Thomas Paine was the most radical, he said all sorts of things about how christianity was a complete abomination and the sort.

I mean come on Shaky, this wasn't the middle ages... since the 1600s there were tons of intellectuals who rejected christianity, and in the enlightenment they were becoming super popular. I mean the French Revolutionary government was completely anti-christian and deism was really quite popular. Your arguments might ring true if we were talking say the 1400s, but by the 1700s rejection of christianity was by no means as unthinkable as you make it seem.

4 out of how many? What religions were they?

that exception of 4 pretty much instantly discredits your clam of "all" does it not?

Six actually. There are like fifty "founders" (and no way I was going to look up all their views) but it seems like most of the important ones (presidents, important party leaders ect.) had anti-christian views. As far as I know, the breakdown is something like this:

John Adams: Deist.

Alexander Hamilton: Was athiest at the time of founding of nation, later was born again.

Thomas Paine: Deist, hated Christianity.

James Madison: I suspect Deist or Athiest, definitely not christian.

Thomas Jefferson: Believed in god but not affiliated with christianity or any other organized religion.

Benjamin Franklin: Deist.


This was the breakdown I usually find of the "important founders":

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin and John Jay.

Out of those six we had an incredible... two christians (later became three when Hamilton converted). So it seems like the country was founded mostly on Deists and CERTAINLY was nothing like the picture you painted of a world where everyone was christian and athiesm was unthinkable.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Six actually. There are like fifty "founders" (and no way I was going to look up all their views) but it seems like most of the important ones (presidents, important party leaders ect.) had anti-christian views. As far as I know, the breakdown is something like this:

John Adams: Deist.

Alexander Hamilton: Was atheist at the time of founding of nation, later was born again.

Thomas Paine: Deist, hated Christianity.

James Madison: I suspect Deist or atheist, definitely not christian.

Thomas Jefferson: Believed in god but not affiliated with christianity or any other organized religion.

Benjamin Franklin: Deist.


This was the breakdown I usually find of the "important founders":

John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin and John Jay.

Out of those six we had an incredible... two christians (later became three when Hamilton converted). So it seems like the country was founded mostly on Deists and CERTAINLY was nothing like the picture you painted of a world where everyone was christian and athiesm was unthinkable.

Deist is just another type of Christian based religion. I truly doubt that anyone was an atheist at the time.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Deist is just another type of Christian based religion. I truly doubt that anyone was an atheist at the time.

Let me be clear: I am talking about Judeo-Christian fundamental principles. That includes all off shoots and sub-sects of the Jewish religion including Christianity. A belief in Jesus is not a requirement, and it does not matter who you hate.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Deist is just another type of Christian based religion. I truly doubt that anyone was an atheist at the time.
What exactly does Deism have to do with christianity? absolutely nothing, it puts no stock in the bible or christ. It is a completely independent religion.

BTW, here is a quote from washington:

"If they be good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa, or Europe; they may be Mohammedans, Jews, or Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists."

Curious he mentions a group you said didn't exist. Athiests were a big demographic that needed attention at the time (though unlike now it was restricted to intellectuals pretty much).

Originally posted by King Kandy
What exactly does Deism have to do with christianity? absolutely nothing, it puts no stock in the bible or christ. It is a completely independent religion.

BTW, here is a quote from washington:

"If they be good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa, or Europe; they may be Mohammedans, Jews, or Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists."

Curious he mentions a group you said didn't exist. Athiests were a big demographic that needed attention at the time (though unlike now it was restricted to intellectuals pretty much).

Notice that Atheists were at the end of the list. I doubt that "Atheists were a big demographic that needed attention at the time". I think you are just making this up. There may have been some Atheists, but I doubt they had any real influence in the mostly Christian community.

Deism and Christianity both have the same foundation because most of the people who became Deist started as Christians. Therefore, Deism is just an offshoot of Christianity in the same way that Satanism (an anti-Christian belief) is a Christian offshoot.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Notice that Atheists were at the end of the list. I doubt that "Atheists were a big demographic that needed attention at the time". I think you are just making this up. There may have been some Atheists, but I doubt they had any real influence in the mostly Christian community.

Deism and Christianity both have the same foundation because most of the people who became Deist started as Christians. Therefore, Deism is just an offshoot of Christianity in the same way that Satanism (an anti-Christian belief) is a Christian offshoot. However that they mentioned it is important and if you said was true that Atheism didn't exist then why was it mentioned? The point is that Atheism was on their minds at the time. Being that it is at the end of the list doesn't really mean anything either, if you want to use that logic then since they mentioned country of origin first that is more important and Christianity is 3rd in the list. Also if would want to look at it this why if it was a Christan nation why would they need to even mention Christianity?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
However that they mentioned it is important and if you said was true that Atheism didn't exist then why was it mentioned? The point is that Atheism was on their minds at the time. Being that it is at the end of the list doesn't really mean anything either, if you want to use that logic then since they mentioned country of origin first that is more important and Christianity is 3rd in the list. Also if would want to look at it this why if it was a Christan nation why would they need to even mention Christianity?

I did not say it did not exist. I said that I don't think they (people in power) would openly be atheist. That is a good way to get shunned by the majority (Christians). I was also, disputing the way King Kandy was suggesting that there was a huge atheist community that created this nation. I was trying to put some balance to his rewriting of history.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I did not say it did not exist. I said that I don't think they (people in power) would openly be atheist. That is a good way to get shunned by the majority (Christians). I was also, disputing the way King Kandy was suggesting that there was a huge atheist community that created this nation. I was trying to put some balance to his rewriting of history. Yes I agree that being openly Atheist would have been a political death sentence at the time, hell it is now but the question would be is why would they even mention it? It could be said that some of the Founding Fathers were in fact Atheist but wouldn't claim it out in the open, many of their comments could be taken for Atheist point of view.

The real point is that if the US was built as a Judeo-Christian nation why would they make allowances for other religions when that is clearly against the teachings of the Bible?

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Yes I agree that being openly Atheist would have been a political death sentence at the time, hell it is now but the question would be is why would they even mention it? It could be said that some of the Founding Fathers were in fact Atheist but wouldn't claim it out in the open, many of their comments could be taken for Atheist point of view.

The real point is that if the US was built as a Judeo-Christian nation why would they make allowances for other religions when that is clearly against the teachings of the Bible?

Because the founders where smart enough to be inclusive. The nation they built was not a Judeo-Christian nation, but it was based on Judeo-Christian principles. They used the only law they knew, and that was British. Britain is (or at that time was) a Judeo-Christian nation.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Because the founders where smart enough to be inclusive. The nation they built was not a Judeo-Christian nation, but it was based on Judeo-Christian principles. They used the only law they knew, and that was British. Britain is (or at that time was) a Judeo-Christian nation. Just because they based some of the ideas off of Judeo-Christian principles doesn't make it a Judeo-Christian nation.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Just because they based some of the ideas off of Judeo-Christian principles doesn't make it a Judeo-Christian nation.

Did I say that? Also, it wasn't some, it was most. There was some non-Judeo-Christian principles incorporated, but that was not the majority.

I don't see how it was most, many things that the US stands for is against the Judeo-Christian ideas of the time and some of the major ones such as the separation of Church and State and the Freedom of Religion just to name a few.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I don't see how it was most, many things that the US stands for is against the Judeo-Christian ideas of the time and some of the major ones such as the separation of Church and State and the Freedom of Religion just to name a few.

Separation of Church and state was part of the teachings of Jesus. "Give unto Cesar what is Cesar's" is as close of a quote as I will give you. Jesus was all about being separate from the state.

What does freedom of religion mean? I think it meant something different back 200 years ago. I think it meant you can be any type of Christian you wish to be. The reason I say that is because of all the blood shed between Catholics and Protestants that had been going on for hundreds of years.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Separation of Church and state was part of the teachings of Jesus. "Give unto Cesar what is Cesar's" is as close of a quote as I will give you. Jesus was all about being separate from the state.

What does freedom of religion mean? I think it meant something different back 200 years ago. I think it meant you can be any type of Christian you wish to be. The reason I say that is because of all the blood shed between Catholics and Protestants that had been going on for hundreds of years. I totally disagree what your view of Freedom of Religion is because it says religion and not Christianity, the forefathers were very careful in picking their words.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What does freedom of religion mean? I think it meant something different back 200 years ago. I think it meant you can be any type of Christian you wish to be. The reason I say that is because of all the blood shed between Catholics and Protestants that had been going on for hundreds of years.

Given that they could easily have just said that and we have quotes from influential founding fathers suggesting they had no special love for Christianity as a religon that seems unlikely.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
I totally disagree what your view of Freedom of Religion is because it says religion and not Christianity, the forefathers were very careful in picking their words.

Then why didn't they say "Freedom of Religion and Atheism"? In the way you are looking at it, Atheism is left out, and there is no freedom of Atheism.


Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Given that they could easily have just said that and we have quotes from influential founding fathers suggesting they had no special love for Christianity as a religon that seems unlikely.

Suggestions that they hates Christianity is quite a stretch. More likely they hated Catholicism, and were afraid to say so. There is good reason for this.

But progress people! Just read Obama's inaguration speech - he wasn't like, "this christian nation", he made a point to include more religions, plus atheism.

hmm, interesting kind of off-topic question.

If you're an atheist, do you consider it a religion, or do you consider it an anti-religion?

Originally posted by siriuswriter
If you're an atheist, do you consider it a religion, or do you consider it an anti-religion?

Consider what a religion or anti-religion?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Notice that Atheists were at the end of the list. I doubt that "Atheists were a big demographic that needed attention at the time". I think you are just making this up. There may have been some Atheists, but I doubt they had any real influence in the mostly Christian community.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
At the time when the US was formed, the idea of an atheist was unheard of.

The above has been proven false.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Deism and Christianity both have the same foundation because most of the people who became Deist started as Christians. Therefore, Deism is just an offshoot of Christianity in the same way that Satanism (an anti-Christian belief) is a Christian offshoot.

That's the silliest argument I've ever heard. Satanism is a Christian offshoot because it borrows Christian terminology and ideas. Deism has only one similarity to christianity: It is monotheistic. That is literally the only thing that is the same. And if you're using that argument you might as well say "all the founding fathers worshiped Aten the sun god to one degree or another", since that too is monotheistic.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All of the founders were Christian in one way or another, and to one degree or another.

The above has been proven false.

This leads to the idea that the following is also false:

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Suggestions that they hates Christianity is quite a stretch. More likely they hated Catholicism, and were afraid to say so. There is good reason for this.
Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson flat out said they hated the bible.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then why didn't they say "Freedom of Religion and Atheism"? In the way you are looking at it, Atheism is left out, and there is no freedom of Atheism. Simply put because Atheism is not a religion and this is directed solely at the freedom of religion.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The above has been proven false.

Unheard of does not mean does not exist. Unheard of only mean uncommon. Therefore you are wrong.

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's the silliest argument I've ever heard. Satanism is a Christian offshoot because it borrows Christian terminology and ideas. Deism has only one similarity to christianity: It is monotheistic. That is literally the only thing that is the same. And if you're using that argument you might as well say "all the founding fathers worshiped Aten the sun god to one degree or another", since that too is monotheistic.

Look at the fundamental principles of Deism, it is the same as Christianity.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The above has been proven false.

My statement is not false. A few Deists among a lot Christians do not make Christians in the minority.

Originally posted by King Kandy
This leads to the idea that the following is also false:

The majority of founder of the USA were Christian.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson flat out said they hated the bible.

That is not the augment. We are talking about basic Judeo-Chrisitian principles. Are you saying that they hated every last part of the bible? I have a feeling they were like everyone else in the world; they did not like some things, but did like others. Please provide a quote to clarify this.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
Simply put because Atheism is not a religion and this is directed solely at the freedom of religion.

Then why did they say religion at all. If they were all atheists, then why go out of your way?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Look at the fundamental principles of Deism, it is the same as Christianity.

Reason leads to religious truths, rather than faith.
Rejection of all religious texts, miracles and traditional creation stories.
While God might be in charge he is also totally absent.
Belief in determinism rather than free will granted by God.
Argument that supplicatory prayer is pointless, unneeded and potentially rude.

It's just like Christianity!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_religion_were_the_Founding_Fathers

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Reason leads to religious truths, rather than faith.
Rejection of all religious texts, miracles and traditional creation stories.
While God might be in charge he is also totally absent.
Belief in determinism rather than free will granted by God.
Argument that supplicatory prayer is pointless, unneeded and potentially rude.

It's just like Christianity!

I don't believe in Chrisitiaty.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't believe in Chrisitiaty.

You're brain damaged aren't you?

^Reported

^confused

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then why did they say religion at all. If they were all atheists, then why go out of your way? Did I say they were all Atheists?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Unheard of does not mean does not exist. Unheard of only mean uncommon. Therefore you are wrong.
They were not "unheard of" at all, every founding father was well-acquainted with atheist ideas and found them legitimate (though they may not have agreed with them).


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Look at the fundamental principles of Deism, it is the same as Christianity.
No it's really not at all. Deism stresses logic, christianity faith. Deism stresses no miracles, christianity uses them to prove itself. Deism believes god is not involved in human affairs, christianity believes in a personal god. Deism believes in no prophets or holy books, christianity has tons.

They are pretty much polar opposites outside of both being monotheistic.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
My statement is not false. A few Deists among a lot Christians do not make Christians in the minority.
I never said christians were the minority (among top seven founders they were though), but you said EVERYBODY was christian and that no non-christian politicians could be taken seriously (when in fact a few of them became the freaking president).


Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The majority of founder of the USA were Christian.
True, but you said ALL of them were. Fact is when Deists can become president then clearly christianity did not have the monopoly on politics.

Originally posted by King Kandy
True, but you said ALL of them were. Fact is when Deists can become president then clearly christianity did not have the monopoly on politics.

This isn't necessarily true. There was probably never a point where Christianity wasn't culturally as relevant in America as it is today (maybe with different pro/re-gressive flavors). We have access to these individual's thoughts on Christianity because their private thoughts have finally been released to the public to read. If these politicians didn't at least appeal to Christian sensibilities they likely would never have won office.

Originally posted by inimalist
This isn't necessarily true. There was probably never a point where Christianity wasn't culturally as relevant in America as it is today (maybe with different pro/re-gressive flavors). We have access to these individual's thoughts on Christianity because their private thoughts have finally been released to the public to read. If these politicians didn't at least appeal to Christian sensibilities they likely would never have won office.
Jefferson published his own revision of the bible where he removed all the miracles and mystic aspects because he thought they were nonsense. How is that not putting his Deism in the public eye?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
That is not the augment. We are talking about basic Judeo-Chrisitian principles. Are you saying that they hated every last part of the bible? I have a feeling they were like everyone else in the world; they did not like some things, but did like others. Please provide a quote to clarify this.

However, before all these principles were called "Judeo-Christian," they were called "being morally responsible." so the founders wrote a document based around what the morals of the govt. should look like, and "do unto others as you would like them to do unto you" was and is a principle that many people use. it just happens to sound like "love thy neighbor" and all that stuff.


Hmmm... which came first, the principle or the religion claiming it?

Originally posted by King Kandy
Jefferson published his own revision of the bible where he removed all the miracles and mystic aspects because he thought they were nonsense. How is that not putting his Deism in the public eye?

indeed he might have, but how many of the nations voting public read the book, or would have even cared so long as Jefferson wasn't blaspheming on the podium?

Nobody is arguing that people who weren't absolute Christians have had power in the country, however, given the religiosity of the American public, it is arguable that Christianity has always had a power over politics in America.

Jefferson clearly couldn't have ran were he to make speeches about how the God 90% of the population believed in rabidly probably didn't exist, could he?

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed he might have, but how many of the nations voting public read the book, or would have even cared so long as Jefferson wasn't blaspheming on the podium?

Nobody is arguing that people who weren't absolute Christians have had power in the country, however, given the religiosity of the American public, it is arguable that Christianity has always had a power over politics in America.

Jefferson clearly couldn't have ran were he to make speeches about how the God 90% of the population believed in rabidly probably didn't exist, could he?
No, he didn't talk about Christianity AT ALL in his speeches... as opposed to nowadays 90% of republicans seem to thrive on calling things "christian".

Non-christians were president in the past. Nowadays, no non-christian could become president. We've taken a step back.

Originally posted by Da Pittman
However that they mentioned it is important and if you said was true that Atheism didn't exist then why was it mentioned? The point is that Atheism was on their minds at the time. Being that it is at the end of the list doesn't really mean anything either, if you want to use that logic then since they mentioned country of origin first that is more important and Christianity is 3rd in the list. Also if would want to look at it this why if it was a Christan nation why would they need to even mention Christianity?

"Deists are people who want there to be a god, minus rules and responsibilities."

-Dinesh D'Souza

Originally posted by Quiero Mota
"Deists are people who want there to be a god, minus rules and responsibilities."

-Dinesh D'Souza

Mind you this is the guy who wrote The Enemy at Home.

Deists were more like people who saw the hand of god as the only explanation for existence but after looking saw no evidence of it doing anything in the modern world.

The believe in a creator, but no constant sustaining.

http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/8307/36198920v2350x350front.th.jpg


Judo Christianity

its funny, how a bunch of ****ers ran away from england complaining that it did not "seperate" church and state, came to america, drove out the natives, fought a BITTER war for secularism and freedom from the colonial british and ESTABLISHED a nation based on "seperation of church and state" only to find 200 years later that it became THE MOST relegious first world country on the planet while britian in contrast became a VERY secular nation. has a morbid sense of humour to it doesnt it. and yes many of the founding fathers were DEISTS which is very different from THEISTS or CHRISTIAN theists to be exact. even among the christian father who might have PERSONALLY prayed for the nation in a christian way or considered morality to be christian, there was a LEGAL consesnsus that the only way to CREATE a free nation in contrast to europe at the time which was filled with relegious persecution, WAS to seperate church and state fundamentally. america might have been a nation OF christians, but it was never meant to be a CHRISTIAN nation, there is a huge difference between the two.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
its funny, how a bunch of ****ers ran away from england complaining that it did not "seperate" church and state, came to america, drove out the natives, fought a BITTER war for secularism and freedom from the colonial british and ESTABLISHED a nation based on "seperation of church and state" only to find 200 years later that it became THE MOST relegious first world country on the planet while britian in contrast became a VERY secular nation. has a morbid sense of humour to it doesnt it. and yes many of the founding fathers were DEISTS which is very different from THEISTS or CHRISTIAN theists to be exact. even among the christian father who might have PERSONALLY prayed for the nation in a christian way or considered morality to be christian, there was a LEGAL consesnsus that the only way to CREATE a free nation in contrast to europe at the time which was filled with relegious persecution, WAS to seperate church and state fundamentally. america might have been a nation OF christians, but it was never meant to be a CHRISTIAN nation, there is a huge difference between the two.

America isn't as religious as Europeans or Canadian hippies like to think. We're not a nation crawling with millions of Fred Phelps's who think 9/11 was caused by gay marriage.

When Christopher Hitchens (author of God is not Great) was a guest on Bill Maher's show two years ago promoting his book, Maher asked him "Why are we so far behind Europe in this respect?" (referring to secular modern thinking), and Hitchens corrected him and put to rest the popular myth around the world of every American is living like a 17th century pilgrim. If anything, our unofficial state religion is money; the Constitution declares secularism, but "In God We Trust" in on all of our denominations.

Q: Why are banks closed on Sundays?

A: Because churches would empty.

^american foreign policy/support for israel/prop8/right wing membership/presidential proclamations/density of churches and self proclaimed christians says otherwise.

i know the interview in question, hitchens said that it has never been CHALLENGED that it was a christian nation and said that 40% of all christians have changed denominations. and your right, they worship money as much if not more than god. but all THAT says is that you can be a christian and a hypocrite without having to let go of either in the culture.