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Searched for this but nothing came up.

Pre-FC Darkseid. Nabu as himself, not being channeled by Dr. Fate.


Who wins & why?

Nabu easily.

Nabu

Nabu

Nabu 10/10.

Nabu

Nabu

Yeah.

But Darkseid is DC's strongest skyfather.

Nabu's abstract, nuff said.

Nabuuu

This is spite against Seid

Unless DS is in true form or get the ALE, yeah, it's not fair.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Searched for this but nothing came up.

Pre-FC Darkseid. Nabu as himself, not being channeled by Dr. Fate.


Who wins & why?

Darkseid, lords of chaos feared him.

Ehhh, I dunno. Nabu held off Spectre in DOV. And in boomtubed form, I don't think he can win.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Nabu's abstract, nuff said.
I was under the impression that Shazam, Mordru, and Nabu were all around the same level.

All of them being skyfathers. Not abstracts.



Interesting opinion, Allan.

Shazam is not an abstract, except in the rock.

Nabu and Mordru are. Mordru's power varies more, depending on which version of him is being used.

Seid's true form... HAHAHA. Still holding on to that huh TP. I guess getting killed, having a war and getting the ALE allows this "true" form to come out lol.

Trick is not 'holding onto that', he's actually right, him and Nvr were always right. As Final Crisis demonstrated, Darkseid's full form hasn't actually been seen in the main DCU, but once it manifested, even while dying, it dragged the whole Multiverse with him twoards his 'grave', the Black Hole at the base of creation. Even in his condition, in order to beat him, they needed Batman to shoot him with a Radion bullet that, as described by Grant Morrison, slays ideas, for the Flashes to bring the Black Racer to him by going beyond lightspeed and entering inside Darkseid's singularity, and for Superman to finally finish him off with a last effort using an attack that practically negates Darkseid from the Multiverse, a counter-frequency.

^ very nice synopsis, Phil.

Nabu, ftw.

Funny you try to act like nvr was always right and was just bullied into being banned in a ton of threads...

"laughing laughing rolling on floor laughing Out of the horse's own mouth.... Nvr, Nvr, I 'trash talk' as you put, because you are an imbecile and you're the only one who doesn't realize it. Not one of your points hold up under close scrutinization, and you have been caught red-handed in a lie several times. Darth goober stomped you, Juntai stomped you, bigbran stomped you, and I stomped you. Just stop please, it's funny watching you pull arguements out of your ass and I admit it's been entertaining. BUT...., it's just not working out between you and me. smokin' So, farewell dear Nvr, may your fanboyism and pigheadedness find a better dance partner than I. Because it's one thing to debate with peers and equals. It's quite another to run circles around an imbecile. Have fun, and please, try to acquire some humility. angel laughing"

whoah what kind of biased marvel fanboy said this o wait it was trick.

Nvr WAS biased as hell. But he was also right at least half the time, oddly enough. srug

Depending on what's being argued here, I don't know if I agree with Phil's synopsis or not.

Regardless of whether Darkseid's true form hadn't been seen until Final Crisis (it hadn't, I agree with), that has no bearing on his power level displayed in Final Crisis with respect to his other showings.

The only thing which controls the true form of the New Gods is their Boom Tubes, which as stated on panel and alluded to in GM's Secret Files, adjusts the size of the New Gods both when they enter the mainstream dimension and when others travel to 4th World.

However, increase in size =/= increase in power. There's zero correlation there. For example, Orion entering the mainstream universe is roughly Superman's physical equal. And, as we've seen...in 4th World - thus, in his true and full form - he is still roughly Superman's physical equal. Size makes no difference. What did make the difference is that Darkseid had the ALE and was being amped by at least three billion human worshipers plus whoever he was controlling remotely on Oa plus the various dark gods of Apokolips.

And we've seen Darkseid die before, and it didn't take Radion, the personification of Death, and two plot devices to accomplish it. Again, I think the difference in FC was his mastery of the ALE, granting him the power to reshape the multiverse in his image and override The Presence's gift to sentients (free will.)

*shrug*

I think as Orion's physical form increases so does his strength. In his own series, he grew to a massive size then put a beating on Apokolips. I don't think he could have done that in his own strength.

The ALE had nothing to do with it. This time, it was his true form being manifested in our universe. Every other time, it's been in the 4th world.

Excuse me? Superman and Orion as equal? Are you forgetting that every time the boomtube has been involved to make them equal? Otherwise, you have beings on the scale where planets are marbles.

Kurupt: just shut up, troll. Your points have been eradicated before.

The ALE was not how the multiverse was crushed, merely how Darkseid was controlling wills, souls and minds. The multiversal upheaval was caused by the true form of Darkseid crashing into the DCU, and then grabbing onto it and dragging it down with him in his death throes.

Originally posted by Enyalus
What did make the difference is that Darkseid had the ALE and was being amped by at least three billion human worshipers plus whoever he was controlling remotely on Oa plus the various dark gods of Apokolips. As Trick said; the ALE/all other external variables, had nothing to do with the actual doomsday singularity. It was Darkseid's mere presence in the mainstream multiverse which caused that.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The ALE had nothing to do with it. This time, it was his true form being manifested in our universe. Every other time, it's been in the 4th world.
Again, I think I agree with you, if what you mean is that it was Darkseid's true form which was the cause of the multiversal singularity, under his own power, etc etc. That is true. However, it took so much to kill him and he was so powerful because he had the ALE to strip free will from 3+ billion beings and gained power from their worship. Which is the point I wanted to express.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Excuse me? Superman and Orion as equal? Are you forgetting that every time the boomtube has been involved to make them equal? Otherwise, you have beings on the scale where planets are marbles.
I don't know if you understood my point. In Orion's true form, in 4th world, Supes and Orion were about equal. Yes, Supes' size was increased via the boom tube in order to interact with everyone. But he was still Superman-level physically. He didn't get any power increase along with the size increase. Which was the point I wanted to make. Size doesn't relate to power. Orion was physically equal to Supes in our dimension when he used the Boom Tube to shrink his true form, and physically equal to Supes when in his true form, too.

There's no evidence to suggest that simply because one shrinks their size they also shrink their power. I mean, Darkseid didn't have have a physical form and was dragging the multiverse into his singularity. There can't be a connection between physical size and physical power.

I hope you agree. Or at least realize that I'm doing my best not to be a troll.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The ALE was not how the multiverse was crushed, merely how Darkseid was controlling wills, souls and minds. The multiversal upheaval was caused by the true form of Darkseid crashing into the DCU, and then grabbing onto it and dragging it down with him in his death throes.
I agree.

But I thought OneDumb's arguments on the subject were very well presented and could also be interpreted that way, too.

Originally posted by Galan007
As Trick said; the ALE/all other external variables, had nothing to do with the actual doomsday singularity. It was Darkseid's mere presence in the mainstream multiverse which caused that.
I know. Apparently my other post wasn't clear on that matter. But I wasn't attributing the singularity to the ALE. I was attributing DS's power and his...resiliency to death to the ALE.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I know. Apparently my other post wasn't clear on that matter. But I wasn't attributing the singularity to the ALE. I was attributing DS's power and his...resiliency to death to the ALE. Gotcha.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Nvr WAS biased as hell. But he was also right at least half the time, oddly enough. srug

"Not one of your points hold up under close scrutinization"

Research, dear boy, research. It does wonders for perspective.

So are you saying you were ignorant at the time and nvr was actually way more informed than you? Nah. He was getting pwned all over the place and the fact that you place yourself below him really makes you seem like a weak debater imo. It doesn't help that you usually just throw out "you're stupid if you don't agree with me" instead of debating like that recent x-force thread where you called me a troll for expressing opinions contrary to your own when I was by no means the only one who thought x-force could win.

There are obvious battles where it's complete spite and only one party can win.

You have argued things like Jesus Cable with the PC being able to solo Apokolips.

Thus, I am fully justified in mocking you and correctly labelling you as a troll.


Nvr's points were stated badly at times, but there were things he was right about even at the worst of times.

He was pwned, because he didn't state his points well and he was kind of a dick.

You call me a weak debator? You're Quanchi's lackey, you're among the worst marvel fanboys on KMC.

Noice!

Nabu wins.

It just looks like King Kandy is baiting the hell out of Trickster.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You have argued things like Jesus Cable with the PC being able to solo Apokolips.
I said he could beat Darkseid not that he could solo Apokolips. You're thinking of Master Court. Also you did not argue outside of the following:

A. Claiming the other posters were crazy
B. Saying that Darkseid's bad showings are PIS
C. Unsupported statements about Henshaw being stronger then an entire team of ridiculously powerful heralds which you didn't support with feats at all.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thus, I am fully justified in mocking you and correctly labelling you as a troll.
I didn't realize that "he doesn't agree with me" is full justification for calling me a troll.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Nvr's points were stated badly at times, but there were things he was right about even at the worst of times.
As opposed to you who admit you were wrong about just about everything you believed in at the time. Maybe we could learn from your mistakes better if you debated instead of just saying that everybody who disagrees with you is biased/sock/troll/stupid.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He was pwned, because he didn't state his points well and he was kind of a dick.
No he was pwned because he was wrong about almost everything and would lie all the time. You seemed to agree but it seems you become more mired in DC bias each passing month.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You call me a weak debator? You're Quanchi's lackey, you're among the worst marvel fanboys on KMC.
Okay first off I actually try to put work into arguing, using scans when I can, trying to back things up with evidence as opposed to you who seem to only put effort into debating when it's in a tourney and still fail pretty badly. And I never call people stupid until their logic has actually been shown false.

Second I have been arguing against biased posters longer than Quanchi was even on this board. I am in no way associated with him but we both like to try to crank the DC bias in some posters down a bit with powerful arguments, clear thinking, and fact based analysis.

I am in no way a marvel fanboy I give about the same number of wins to both marvel and DC. On the other hand I don't remember the last time you gave marvel the win in a thread but didn't say it was a spite/troll thread. And you barely give Darkseid a loss in anything whereas I have said Thanos would lose in a variety of threads.

Can someone tell me what they mean by the Singularity??

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Can someone tell me what they mean by the Singularity??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

Originally posted by Allankles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity
So something like a huge black hole?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
So something like a huge black hole?

Essentially the "bottom" or epicenter of a black hole in DS' case. A place where the gravitational force is infinite, affecting space-time.

Originally posted by Allankles
Essentially the "bottom" or epicenter of a black hole in DS' case. A place where the gravitational force is infinite, affecting space-time.
So DS was causing it, or he was "it"

Depends what you mean by "was it". Obviously Darkseid wasn't emitting an infinite gravitational pull from his person - but his presence in the mainstream reality is what was causing the multiverse to get flushed down the cosmic toilet.

Think Abraxas, but on a much larger scale.

Originally posted by Galan007
Depends what you mean by "was it". Obviously Darkseid wasn't emitting an infinite gravitational pull from his person - but his presence in the mainstream reality is what was causing the multiverse to get flushed down the cosmic toilet.

Think Abraxas, but on a much larger scale. So as Abraxas presence cause Universes(one at a time) to collapse, Darksied presence caused the Multiverse to start to collapse.

Yep, Darkseid was like Abraxas on uber steroids.

Originally posted by Galan007
Depends what you mean by "was it". Obviously Darkseid wasn't emitting an infinite gravitational pull from his person - but his presence in the mainstream reality is what was causing the multiverse to get flushed down the cosmic toilet.

Think Abraxas, but on a much larger scale.
alright thanks

Originally posted by Galan007
Yep, Darkseid was like Abraxas on uber steroids.

Except that Abraxas was aware of what he was doing and was intentionally doing such, and Darkseid....was falling after having his heart ripped out by his son.

Oh DS was aware. "Space-time crumpled as though gripped by an enormous fist." He decided to take the multiverse with him on his descent to hell.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Oh DS was aware.
Poorly phrased. My apologies. And conceded.

Thank you. I also concede, that DS's "refusal to die" was partly the ALE. But the grip on the multiverse was his own power. It was more like the problem was getting him weakened enough to make him let go of the multiverse. He was already dying, the ALE was helping him stave off that death. His sheer power not including the ALE however, necessitated using several plot devices to make him finally crash into the black hole and finish dying. The ALE was part of that death grip, but Darkseid must be considered abstract in that form even without the ALE.

I'm not bothering with Kandy, since I consider him beneath my notice.

Originally posted by Galan007
Depends what you mean by "was it". Obviously Darkseid wasn't emitting an infinite gravitational pull from his person - but his presence in the mainstream reality is what was causing the multiverse to get flushed down the cosmic toilet.

Think Abraxas, but on a much larger scale.

True. Based on the on panel descriptions its gravitational pull was around New Earth space.

the Judge of All Evil had to help the earth heroes pull New Earth out of the black hole and make it so DS wouldn't pull everything in again.

Hmm....strictly speaking, Darkseid still isn't quite dead. There's still some part of him raging at everything in the depths of the black hole.

I thought he fell out of the DCU, through the singularity.

Not that he actually died at all.

Part of him died to the Black Racer. But the fact that he survived the singularity and just fell through, warping the space within into his own personal hell dimension is crazy.

* Recently they killed his body, trapped his soul and made his consciousness explode. Bets are open on how long it takes for him to come back.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AsLongAsThereIsEvil

Darkseid is king of comebacks if he ever manages to bring himself back from THAT.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Darkseid is king of comebacks if he ever manages to bring himself back from THAT. Except we know Darkseid will be back again. As the "Martian Manhunter: One Million" one-shot displays, Darky is still very much alive well into the future. It's only when he battles MM and surrenders to the being of the Source that he finally meets his end.

Assuming IC and FC didn't drastically alter the future history anyway.

The "One Million" series takes place in the very distant future. So, theoretically speaking, everything that was going to happen regarding the characters involved.... Should have already happened.

(in a perfect world, of course.)

Darkseid destroys Nabu with ease.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm not bothering with Kandy, since I consider him beneath my notice.
That's probably for the best, when you do notice me all you do is throw out insults.

Looking forward to never hearing any accusations of bias again since you won't pay attention anymore. But if you ever try to go after my posts after this I guess you're just a liar.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Again, I think I agree with you, if what you mean is that it was Darkseid's true form which was the cause of the multiversal singularity, under his own power, etc etc. That is true. However, it took so much to kill him and he was so powerful because he had the ALE to strip free will from 3+ billion beings and gained power from their worship. Which is the point I wanted to express.


I don't know if you understood my point. In Orion's true form, in 4th world, Supes and Orion were about equal. Yes, Supes' size was increased via the boom tube in order to interact with everyone. But he was still Superman-level physically. He didn't get any power increase along with the size increase. Which was the point I wanted to make. Size doesn't relate to power. Orion was physically equal to Supes in our dimension when he used the Boom Tube to shrink his true form, and physically equal to Supes when in his true form, too.

There's no evidence to suggest that simply because one shrinks their size they also shrink their power. I mean, Darkseid didn't have have a physical form and was dragging the multiverse into his singularity. There can't be a connection between physical size and physical power.

I hope you agree. Or at least realize that I'm doing my best not to be a troll.


I agree.

But I thought OneDumb's arguments on the subject were very well presented and could also be interpreted that way, too.

No Onedumb's arguments were correct.

It says very clearly on panel... The war crack time and space not DS's wave of a hand... It further says... Merely saying the ALE when broadcast cracked time and space again. Yet again not DS waving his hand. It took DS dying for anything and the sigularity to even be possible. Yet again not a wave of his hand. It took having a "powerup" the ALE to even win the war and too get things done in FC again not his normal powerset. YOu people act like he created this singularity from his own powerset and was crushing the multiverse. False

Jesus F-ing crist he didn't create the sigularity under his own power.. he didn't wave his hand cause the sigularity and starting crushing the multiverse. He got he heart ripped out which wasn't his plan. After events had played out then yes of course he went with the flow and really tried to mess shit up. Stop acting like the events that took place was his plan or all under his own power.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
No Onedumb's arguments were correct.

It says very clearly on panel... The war crack time and space not DS's wave of a hand... It further says... Merely saying the ALE when broadcast cracked time and space again. Yet again not DS waving his hand. It took DS dying for anything and the sigularity to even be possible. Yet again not a wave of his hand. It took having a "powerup" the ALE to even win the war and too get things done in FC again not his normal powerset. YOu people act like he created this singularity from his own powerset and was crushing the multiverse. False

ODG had some sound arguments but overall he didn't get the big picture. The singularity didn't happen as a result of DS dying or anything, the singularity was a result of his presence/impact in the material realm & was part of his plan and coincided with the purpose of the ALE. He says it himself in FC 5, that he'll drag everyone to his hell.

Simply put, the singularity was necessary for DS to manipulate the new iteration of reality, the 5th world. DS has always known that Earth would be the centre of the 5th world and that humanity would be the ancestors of a new super divinity, an eventuality which DS seeks to prevent as it would affect his plan for complete universal domination.

Therefore the doomsday singularity was necessary to prevent existence from escaping the ALE (since the ALE is a mathematical equation that needs some form of medium to affect someone). It is said that DS was willfully dragging the multiverse down into his hell at least 3 times.

You act like DS came down to Earth and went "oopsy" when the singularity formed. It wasn't some random symptom of his tamperings, he actually wanted to drag down the whole of the multiverse. It was said even before DS made it clear later in FC 5.

Originally posted by Allankles
You act like DS came down to Earth and went "oopsy" when the singularity formed. It wasn't some random symptom of his tamperings, he actually wanted to drag down the whole of the multiverse. It was said even before DS made it clear later in FC 5. Exactly.
http://img269.imageshack.us/i/fc5p3233.jpg/

How the hell did i miss that

So, ur saying it was DS plan to die n thus he knew a sigularity would thus form etc etc. Please show me the scan saying that. It wasnt his plan to die but once that did occur and his role and importance etc etc formed the sigularity upon entering of course he's going to try n drag shit with him. Of course he would say n do that. However, that doesnt mean him dying n the war cracking time n space was his plan is my point.

Question Allan

1. Did it not say the war cracked time n space?
2. Did broadcasting the ALE also said to have cracked time n space?
3. Are claiming that even without dying DS couldve formed that sigularity with a wave of his hand?

The singularity wasn't formed by a wave of his hand it was formed by his hold on time and space after reality had caught up with his descent from the 4th world, the guardians/gl's said the impact of his descent onto Earth created cracks across all space sectors, and that time and space around Earth just crumpled "like it had been crushed in a fist".

The only time DS was actually dying was after the radion poisoning, at which point he started destroying the continuum as a form of spite, knowing he was going to die.

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly.
http://img269.imageshack.us/i/fc5p3233.jpg/

Btw, best sig you've ever had.

Originally posted by Allankles
The singularity wasn't formed by a wave of his hand it was formed by his hold on time and space after reality had caught up with his descent from the 4th world, the guardians/gl's said the impact of his descent onto Earth created cracks across all space sectors, and that time and space around Earth just crumpled "like it had been crushed in a fist".

The only time DS was actually dying was after the radion poisoning, at which point he started destroying the continuum as a form of spite, knowing he was going to die.

He didn't die when he heart was ripped out by Orion... Was the sigularity not caused by him dying Allan.. It was right where his heart was located. Now your claiming the sigularity was formed for some other reason... Come on man why are you trying to hold onto something that isn't there? The sigularity formed because of his role and importance entering into a realm that essentially couldn't hold him. As you admit he didn't form it with a wave of his hand. It formed for the reasons I just stated which was him dying and thus entering and dragging all down with him. It had more to do with his role, power and importance upon dying and thus having a void for all that is DS and him entering another world. It wasn't caused by a wave of his hand nor his own power.

Show me scan that says DS formed the sigularity from his own power set? You never addressed one of my questions... Show me the scan of DS saying it was his plan to die and thus a sigularity would form yada yada. The scan doesnt exist because that wasnt' his plan and he didn't know that would happen. Once it did he rolled with it but that wasn't his plan from the start nor his power that caused the sigularity. It was hiim entering a place he didn't belong and the void that was made by him dying.

-Darkseid-
"There was a war in heaven, Mr. Turpin, and I won":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839644/ds2.jpg.html

-Orion-
"Heaven cracked and broken":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839643/ds1.jpg.html

----

-Upon Darkseid's incarnation-
"Humankind's decent into the pit has begun":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839646/ds4.jpg.html

(the singularity began just by him merely existing.)

----

"Darkseid's falling, dragging this whole universe as he goes, the entire structure of existence, the whole multiverse Wally."
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839671/ds7.jpg.html

----

-Kyle-
"Spacetime around earth just crumpled, like it was in a crushed fist."

-Guardian-
"The impact of Darkseid's fall is causing cracks to spread through all space sectors":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839647/ds5.jpg.html

----

-John-
"We're falling into some kind of hell where everything is Darkseid":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839648/ds6.jpg.html

----

And we know Darkseid's "plague" was multiversal, because new earth = the foundation of all existence:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839645/ds3.jpg.html

Originally posted by Galan007
-Darkseid-
"There was a war in heaven, Mr. Turpin, and I won":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839644/ds2.jpg.html

-Orion-
"Heaven cracked and broken":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839643/ds1.jpg.html

----

-Upon Darkseid's incarnation-
"Humankind's decent into the pit has begun":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839646/ds4.jpg.html

(the singularity began just by him merely existing.)

----

-Kyle-
"Spacetime around earth just crumpled, like it was in a crushed fist."

-Guardian-
"The impact of Darkseid's fall is causing cracks to spread through all space sectors":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839647/ds5.jpg.html

----

-John-
"We're falling into some kind of hell where everything is Darkseid":
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839648/ds6.jpg.html

----

And we know Darkseid's "plague" was multiversal, because new earth = the foundation of all existence:
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1839645/ds3.jpg.html

All those quotes are good. However, was it not him dying that caused his fall into our reality? I'm looking for a scan saying it was his plan to die and thus knew a sigulairty would form and thus then he would start dragging all down with him. That wasn't his plan nor was it stated to be his plan which is my point. He had no idea that would happen but once it did... sure he went with it and did what it could to really **** shit up as best he could. However, the fact still remains none of that could've or would've happen under DS own powerset. He couldn't have waved his hand and started to crush space and time. It was HIM DYING and FALLING that caused the sigularity to form. It was that sigularity and lack of all that is DS entering a new world that couldn't hold him that was crushing time and space. This wasn't under his own power that caused the sigularity or the fall is the point.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
He didn't die when he heart was ripped out by Orion... Was the sigularity not caused by him dying Allan.. It was right where his heart was located.

The singularity wasn't where his heart was located, seeing as the singularity was around Earth not on DS person. Yes it was his own "powerset", he was holding time and space and dragging it down, the singularity was a manifestation of this event.

In FC 5 it is clearly stated and I quote: "a fallen devil god is dragging us down with him into a deep dark hole in time."

FC 4: "Darkseid's falling, dragging this whole universe as he goes, the entire structure of existence, the whole multiverse wally."

So it wasn't some accident or symptom of his death, he wanted to drag the multiverse down into his hell.

And Galan already gave you the scan from FC 5 and you ignored it. Darkseid was going to pull down all of existence, and then murder everyone's soul with the ALE. It was his plan and intent to drag down the multiverse structure into New Earth space where the ALE had infected over 3 billion sentients.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All those quotes are good. However, was it not him dying that caused his fall into our reality?

It was heaven (the 4th world) getting destroyed that threw him backwards through time into earth as we see in Seven Soldiers (which takes place before 52). Orion merely wounded/weakened him.

In FC, it was his final incarnation that brought about the singularity as he dragged down the multiverse.

The black racer was dragging him away from the multiverse in FC 7 and Superman - with counter vibrations - loosened his weakening grip on the multiverse structure.

Originally posted by Allankles
It was heaven (the 4th world) getting destroyed that threw him backwards through time into earth as we see in Seven Soldiers (which takes place before 52). Orion merely wounded/weakened him.

Orion said that heaven was "cracked and broken" in FC #1 - and in that comic 'Boss Dark Side' (from Seven Soldiers) was the current incarnation of Darkseid we saw. This means even that 'version' started breaking down creation, just by existing. But when DS was reincarnated into Turpin, the actual singularity was formed.

Originally posted by Allankles
It was heaven (the 4th world) getting destroyed that threw him backwards through time into earth as we see in Seven Soldiers (which takes place before 52). Orion merely wounded/weakened him.

In FC, it was his final incarnation that brought about the singularity as he dragged down the multiverse.

The black racer was dragging him away from the multiverse in FC 7 and Superman - with counter vibrations - loosened his weakening grip on the multiverse structure.

Batman even says it was his plan to shoot Orion from a point in time when he no longer exists, so nobody could stop Orion dying aka the main point why the Flashs couldn't catch the bullet. And I believe we already explained the 'war broke time space' debacle and what it means. Some just don't want to get it.

So, if DS wasn't killed when his heart was ripped out and thus fallling to the next world it was the war which made him fall?

Furthermore, then if that is what your saying.. your saying his plan was to have a war that cracked time and space and have his heart ripped out.... knowing it would form a sigularity. You guys keep on saying stuff that is irrelevant. Show me a scan saying he knew a war would crack time and space and he would have his heart ripped out and thus that would form a sigularity. The fact is he had no clue that would occur he just went with it once it did. However, it wasn't his own powerset that allowed that to occur. He didn't wave his hand and crack time and space. He couldn't have done squat had that not been a aftermath of the war. He couldn't wave his hand and form a sigularity either.

from what i gather, darkseid's past incarnation "dying" in his final battle is what initially caused space & time to crack (heck the immediate damage was such that whole universes were destroyed.) but it was only when darksied was resurected that the actual singularity (the one that was purposefully dragging down the multiverse) formed.

so his "death" may have been what caused the initial damage to spacetime, but it was only when he "respawned" that the multiverse as a whole was threatened via the "dds".

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, if DS wasn't killed when his heart was ripped out and thus fallling to the next world it was the war which made him fall?



What part of "countdown was retconned" didn't you get? It' kind of pointless bringing up questions that are irrelevant to continuity. Orion wounded DS in the battle in heaven (the 4th world) countdown is a just a very loose interpretation of what happened.

DS didn't fall backwards in time because of death, he didn't die, he (leading Apokolips) fought a final destructive war against New Genesis. It was a forced war, a war that New Genesis could not help but fight because DS had mastered the full ALE.

The war destroyed their higher dimensional universe, sending DS (who had won the war) backwards through time several years in DC's past (7 Soldiers).

In FC, DS claimed his final incarnation (as prophesized by Lilith in the Crime Bible) as the New god of creation.

Time and space caught up with DS' descent, DS held on to the multiverse structure, literally "held" time and space which in turn resulted in a singularity dragging the multiverse. DS sought to disrupt the creation of the 5th world in order to recreate it using the ALE to infect all sentient life.


All your questions don't even attack the main purpose of DS plan, which is to disrupt the natural onset of the 5th world and recreate it (the new iteration of reality) in his image. So the singularity was very much part of his purpose, as he needed it for his plan to succeed.