Darkseid (FC) vs. Darkseid (GDS)

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Merlyn
Who wins?

john allerdyce
GDS Darkseid for the mindrape-win.

Galan007
concerning the mindrape thing, i've always found it odd that GDS darkseid could easily hold 3 billion daxamites under his control, but was unable to take control over just a few more could it be that he was unable to do so because superman/girl were already 'amped' by a yellow sun, thus making their minds much more resistant to mental assaults? if you remember, darkseid kind of made it a point to control the daxamites while they were still under a red sun - so it does make sense..


that aside, darkseid still controlled 3 billion+ in FC - and there's also this:

-turpin-
"but wrestling with darkseid, well.... it's like trying to beat the ocean unconscious":

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1850824_ds1.jpg


so if we use the beyonder line of 'logic', then FC darkseid's mind was roughly septillions of times more powerful than everyone elses, combined. duryes

Philosophía
haermm

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by john allerdyce
GDS Darkseid for the mindrape-win.

/co-signed




Tazer

Merlyn
Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



/co-signed




Tazer How so?

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Merlyn
How so?

simple: DS didnt control humanity in FC.

it was the Anti-Life Equation which did most of that work, whenreas GDS controlled all of Daxam thru his OWN power (and that was while he was still weak as I recall.)




Tazer

Galan007
i don't see why that matters.

Tazer
Yo.

easy: wat did DS really do during FC, that shows he'd give GDS-DS a fight, let alone him WINNING here?

I cant think of anything really......




Tazer

Galan007
that's not what i was getting at. you made it sound like GDS-darky controlling 3 billion characters with his acquired power, was any different than FC-darky controlling 3 billion characters with the ALE. meaning, the exotic powers darkseid had accumulated from various objects, and such, during GDS were part of his being - much like the ALE was part of his being, during FC. no difference there.

however, i personally see 'mindrape' as a more viable tactic for FC-darkseid, than i do for his GDS counterpart - do to the ALE.

Prep-Man
FC Darkseid is the same thing as GDS Darkseid. It's the same character, except that FC Darkseid is it's true self. GDS Darky is probably just another avatar. For this reason, FC Darky wins.

KuRuPT Thanosi
how is controlling turpin or humans in general particularly impressive?

Galan007
it's no more impressive than controlling daxamites under a red sun.

but the ALE also showed control over green lanterns. hell, even the central battery could have been corrupted.

batdude123
Originally posted by Galan007
i don't see why that matters.

No shit. haermm

Enyalus
I don't believe the ALE would work on GDS Darkseid. Wired differently, and all that.

Also, GDS Darkseid would physically mangle FC Darkseid.

But um, there's not much he'd be able to do after that. So, probably a stalemate or if you count destruction of physical body as a victory...GDS DS FTW.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't believe the ALE would work on GDS Darkseid. Wired differently, and all that. i'm not convinced that the ALE would just... fail.

however, i am fairly confident that mindrape on GDS-darkseid's part, would be ineffective.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Also, GDS Darkseid would physically mangle FC Darkseid.

But um, there's not much he'd be able to do after that. So, probably a stalemate or if you count destruction of physical body as a victory...GDS DS FTW. yeah, no argument there. GDS-darky would certainly be superior in the physical department. but if the ALE could be used against him, he'd never get the chance to throw fisticuffs.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
however, i am fairly confident that mindrape on GDS-darkseid's part, would be ineffective.
Certainly.

About the Daxamite red sun mind control theory, though....he did pull the information out of Mon-El's head and render him comatose via mindrape. And Mon-El wasn't depowered at the time.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus

Certainly.

About the Daxamite red sun mind control theory, though....he did pull the information out of Mon-El's head and render him comatose via mindrape. And Mon-El wasn't depowered at the time. right. i'm just saying that his initial control/hold over the race was preformed when they were still non-powered. also, if he were able to mindrape so easily, you'd think he would have done so on orion/superman/supergirl/the legion - you know, the characters who were actually fighting against him. lol.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
right. i'm just saying that his initial control/hold over the race was preformed when they were still non-powered. also, if he were able to mindrape so easily, you'd think he would have done so on orion/superman/supergirl/the legion - you know, the characters who were actually fighting against him. lol.
Well, Superman and Supergirl were amped by Highfather. I can't remember if Orion was as well, but Darkseid literally disintegrated Orion like the feeb he is, so no worries there.

Also, Superman's a walking PIS factory. I mean, DS used his "Omega Rays" to BFR Kal back to his own time. Instead of, you know, using it to erase him, which would've been smarter.

So I'm not sure if it was just PIS that he didn't use it, or if he couldn't. He was pretty shocked that his mental hold over the 3 billion Daxamites had been broken. Maybe he was worried about not being able to hold them in thrall AND the Legion at the same time.

Charmander
Originally posted by Galan007
concerning the mindrape thing, i've always found it odd that GDS darkseid could easily hold 3 billion daxamites under his control, but was unable to take control over just a few more could it be that he was unable to do so because superman/girl were already 'amped' by a yellow sun, thus making their minds much more resistant to mental assaults? It's because his limit was specifically cut off at 3 billion. I thought that was common knowledge. erm


Originally posted by Galan007
so if we use the beyonder line of 'logic', then FC darkseid's mind was roughly septillions of times more powerful than everyone elses, combined. duryes I like it

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well, Superman and Supergirl were amped by Highfather. who is a new god

Originally posted by Enyalus
So I'm not sure if it was just PIS that he didn't use it, or if he couldn't. He was pretty shocked that his mental hold over the 3 billion Daxamites had been broken. Maybe he was worried about not being able to hold them in thrall AND the Legion at the same time. yeah, 3,000,000,000 is no problem at all - but 3,000,000,001 is the cut off point. stick out tongue

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
yeah, 3,000,000,000 is no problem at all - but 3,000,000,001 is the cut off point. stick out tongue
Glad you finally understand.

Galan007
Originally posted by Charmander
It's because his limit was specifically cut off at 3 billion. I thought that was common knowledge. erm


I like it i know, i just like arguing.

i hoped you would. wink

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Galan007
that's not what i was getting at. you made it sound like GDS-darky controlling 3 billion characters with his acquired power, was any different than FC-darky controlling 3 billion characters with the ALE. meaning, the exotic powers darkseid had accumulated from various objects, and such, during GDS were part of his being - much like the ALE was part of his being, during FC. no difference there.

however, i personally see 'mindrape' as a more viable tactic for FC-darkseid, than i do for his GDS counterpart - do to the ALE.

I feel it is, since (correct me if Im wrong here) the ALE was released prior to DS's full emergence in Turpins body, which would mean that *he* wasnt the 1 in control for atleast part of the story, and he ended up doing so by means of a power *not his own*. Hal has accomplished a very similar feat in his early days, but that doesnt mean Id say he would be comparable to GDS, feat-by-feat -wise........



Tazer

Enyalus
Originally posted by Tazer
Hal has accomplished a very similar feat in his early days, but that doesnt mean Id say he would be comparable to GDS, feat-by-feat -wise........
I would.

GDS DS didn't do much that was impressive, besides teleporting Daxam and the mind control. PC Hal has similar feats, you're right.

Galan007
Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



I feel it is, since (correct me if Im wrong here) the ALE was released prior to DS's full emergence in Turpins body, which would mean that *he* wasnt the 1 in control for atleast part of the story, and he ended up doing so by means of a power *not his own*.



Tazer before darkseid's resurrection into turpin, he still existed as 'boss dark side':

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1851975_ds1.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1851976_ds2.jpg


meaning, some 'version' of him has always been in control of the ALE.

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I would.

GDS DS didn't do much that was impressive, besides teleporting Daxam and the mind control. PC Hal has similar feats, you're right.

I dont remember Hal ever putting an pre-CoIE empowered Daxamite into a coma in 1 move......which GDS-DS did.

I also dont remember him switching the universal positions of 2 planets........while he was still weak.

lastly, I also dont remember Hal ever facing approximately 20+ superhumans, holding them all to arguably a stalemate, and then simply walking away KNOWING those opposed to U wont try to stop ya.

I like Hal, but he'd lose against GDS-DS, no question.




Tazer

Enyalus
Originally posted by Tazer
I dont remember Hal ever putting an pre-CoIE empowered Daxamite into a coma in 1 move......which GDS-DS did.

I also dont remember him switching the universal positions of 2 planets........while he was still weak.
Y'know, it made reference to him being at full strength several times during that arc. And he only mentions that he 'must be weaker' because he couldn't hold 3 billion Daxamite minds together while battling the Legion. I would throw out those words of his, which he only said once. He couldn't have been weaker. He had the combined magical energies of every worth while magical item in the galaxy, Mordru's power, Time Trapper's power, and Soulworld's (or whatever that Sorcerer planet was called) power. Plus his own.

And him putting Mon-El into a coma was more from the mind**** than anything else, IMO.

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Galan007
before darkseid's resurrection into turpin, he still existed as 'boss dark side':

http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1851975_ds1.jpg http://s1d3.turboimagehost.com/t/1851976_ds2.jpg


meaning, some 'version' of him has always been in control of the ALE.

ok, but a question: was DS *in control* of the ALE the entire time, part of the time, some of the time............or ever......during that time??

either way, since it was via an external plot device, I still say that doesnt show him being = to GDS-DS.




Tazer

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Y'know, it made reference to him being at full strength several times during that arc. And he only mentions that he 'must be weaker' because he couldn't hold 3 billion Daxamite minds together while battling the Legion. I would throw out those words of his, which he only said once. He couldn't have been weaker. He had the combined magical energies of every worth while magical item in the galaxy, Mordru's power, Time Trapper's power, and Soulworld's (or whatever that Sorcerer planet was called) power. Plus his own.

And him putting Mon-El into a coma was more from the mind**** than anything else, IMO.

when he put down Mon-El, I dont believe he was at full power, HOWEVER I could be wrong; I dont think so, but it *could* happen....

he didnt have the TT's power, but that of a Controller (it was a later retcon), and I think U meant "Sorceror's World".

but, despite his current level of power at the end of ALL of that, the fact remains that GDS-DS let the stage becuz *HE* wanted too, not becuz he was beaten.

FC-DS's biggest feat was almost destroy the universe as he died....which doesnt really count in my book.




Tazer

Enyalus
Originally posted by Tazer
he didnt have the TT's power, but that of a Controller (it was a later retcon), and I think U meant "Sorceror's World".
Didn't know that. Cool.

Thanks.

TricksterPriest
A young Darkseid, before his pantheon killing, was able to stalemate and kill GDS Darkseid.

And DS fell backwards in time after whatever happened in the war in heaven. Seven Soldiers takes place before Infinite Crisis. He's been around awhile.

Galan007
Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.



ok, but a question: was DS *in control* of the ALE the entire time, part of the time, some of the time............or ever......during that time??

either way, since it was via an external plot device, I still say that doesnt show him being = to GDS-DS.




Tazer yes. darkseid has been 'in control' of the ALE ever since "seven soldiers."

the ALE wasn't just some 'external plot device'. beside that, darkseid still had mental control/hold over every single being connected to it. point being: the TP feats from GDS/FC are almost identical. the only difference is that the ALE could (arguably) affect beings GDS-darky was unable to.

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
A young Darkseid, before his pantheon killing, was able to stalemate and kill GDS Darkseid.

and that was done becuz *that* GDS-DS hadnt yet "recharged" himself as I recall, and correct me if Im wrong but I dont think he'd done any of the feats the pre-CoIE guy had done as well.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And DS fell backwards in time after whatever happened in the war in heaven. Seven Soldiers takes place before Infinite Crisis. He's been around awhile.

I know that, but thnx fer the recap.

big grin




Tazer

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Galan007
yes. darkseid has been 'in control' of the ALE ever since "seven soldiers."

it doesnt seem that way: if he had I think he wouldve simply taken over the whole planet, rather than just taken control of the ppl who were ensnared by the ALE which came over the 'Net, which would automatically have given him the win against just about everyone on
the planet.

moreover, it looks to me that it wasnt DS who was in control of the ALE (atleast not totally) the entire time, but Libra & Mokkari.........somehow.

Originally posted by Galan007
the ALE wasn't just some 'external plot device'. beside that, darkseid still had mental control/hold over every single being connected to it. point being: the TP feats from GDS/FC are almost identical. the only difference is that the ALE could (arguably) affect beings GDS-darky was unable to.

I dont think theyre identical given that GDS-DS took control of Daxams ENTIRE population w/o the need of external assistance, whereas it looks like FC-DS simply took control of those who were already under the thrall of that 'Net-dispersed ALE.

and I cant think of any examples for GDS-DS off-hand, but according to FC U would be "safe" if U were crazy, "wired different", or had that New God -character tattooed on yur face......




Tazer

Galan007
Originally posted by Tazer
it doesnt seem that way: if he had I think he wouldve simply taken over the whole planet, rather than just taken control of the ppl who were ensnared by the ALE which came over the 'Net, which would automatically have given him the win against just about everyone on
the planet.

moreover, it looks to me that it wasnt DS who was in control of the ALE (atleast not totally) the entire time, but Libra & Mokkari.........somehow. darkseid's control over the ALE goes way back to "seven soldiers" - and, as the scans i posted earlier show, boss dark side (from "SS"wink was clearly shown in control of the ALE as recently as "FC" #1.

and if the others you mentioned had anything to do with the ALE, why wasn't it 'dispersed' (or whatever) upon libra's death? why did superman solely target darkseid with his counter vibrational 'life equation'?

in fact, the final page of the "FC: secret origins" (iirc) book explains darkseid's control over the ALE more in depth. i'll try to remember to post the scan once i get home.

Originally posted by Tazer
I dont think theyre identical given that GDS-DS took control of Daxams ENTIRE population w/o the need of external assistance, whereas it looks like FC-DS simply took control of those who were already under the thrall of that 'Net-dispersed ALE.anyone who witnessed the ALE went under darkseid's control. from what i gather, the net just helped darky infect more people with the ALE, faster.

Originally posted by Tazer
and I cant think of any examples for GDS-DS off-hand, but according to FC U would be "safe" if U were crazy, "wired different", or had that New God -character tattooed on yur face...... GDS-darky only showed the ability to initially gain control over non-powered daxamites. as mentioned earlier, if he was able to mindrape more powerful/TP-resistant beings on a whim, surely he would have done so against characters who were giving him problems such as, superman/girl/legion/orion, etc. (which he never did.)

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
and if the others you mentioned had anything to do with the ALE, why wasn't it 'dispersed' (or whatever) upon libra's death? why did superman solely target darkseid with his counter vibrational 'life equation'
Wonder Woman's lasso and Spectre breaking Cain's hold over him already ensured that the ALE was no longer a threat with the exception of Darkseid, right?

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Galan007
darkseid's control over the ALE goes way back to "seven soldiers" - and, as the scans i posted earlier show, boss dark side (from "SS"wink was clearly shown in control of the ALE as recently as "FC" #1.

I wont dispute wat haapend in 7 Soldiers due to not having read it, however something else *mustve* happened that changed DS's relationship/control over the ALE when we get to FC, becuz if U look at how its used theres no way it was him in SOLE control of it, not when U have others having a hand in it.

Originally posted by Galan007
and if the others you mentioned had anything to do with the ALE, why wasn't it 'dispersed' (or whatever) upon libra's death? why did superman solely target darkseid with his counter vibrational 'life equation'?

by that token, why didnt DS enslave the OTHER 3 million ppl on the planet when he was fully "born" in Turpins body?? or better yet: why didnt he enslave Supes when he was right there in front of him (if he had the ALE, it doesnt GET much more easier than that..)??

Originally posted by Galan007
in fact, the final page of the "FC: secret origins" (iirc) book explains darkseid's control over the ALE more in depth. i'll try to remember to post the scan once i get home.

that would be much abliged, since I can seem to find mine.........dangit.

Originally posted by Galan007
anyone who witnessed the ALE went under darkseid's control. from what i gather, the net just helped darky infect more people with the ALE, faster.

my problem is that DS wasnt the 1 who sent it; had THAT been there case I wouldnt be questioning its usage........

Originally posted by Galan007
GDS-darky only showed the ability to initially gain control over non-powered daxamites. as mentioned earlier, if he was able to mindrape more powerful/TP-resistant beings on a whim, surely he would have done so against characters who were giving him problems such as, superman/girl/legion/orion, etc. (which he never did.)

agreed, but I dont recall anybody fighting his attempt to do so, nor was anybody exempt when he did it; FC-DS still only took over ppl who were pre-conditiond to obey him, as opposed to GDS-DS.

and I'll agree w/that last bit, but I also dont really recall him making the attempt, so saying whether he could or couldnt is naught but pure conjecture either way.




Tazer

kevdude
He'd much rather kill Superman then use the ALE as he was gloating about him winning, he took control of the rest of the 3 billion people after he took control over Turpin's body. In FC 5 while talking to the evil gods of Apokolips and to the Furies DS let it be known he willed them to do everything they did. cool

quanchi112
GDS Darkseid.

TricksterPriest
GDS 'seid already lost to a weaker Darkseid. This is Darkseid at his full strength, with the ALE, and GDS doesn't have access to any of the plot devices used to kill him.

Final Crisis Darkseid stomps.

Tazer
Yo.

THAT version of GDS-DS had just woken up; I believe we're supposed to be dealing w/the pre-C version here.




Tazer

TricksterPriest
Honestly, I really don't think it matters. Final Crisis Darkseid was on a whole other level. Darkseid's true power was great enough to crush the entire multiverse: time, space and reality all into the black hole at the centre of creation. Even the IG doesn't have that kind of power.

Enyalus
You do realize that Earth-0 Earth is/was the key to it all, which is why the singularity formed over it? If Earth-0 falls, so does all of the parallel universes/multiverse with it.

I don't know if Marvel has that kind of set up.

TricksterPriest
Yes it does. Earth 616 is the lynch-pin. And it still does not change the fact that Darkseid was this close to replacing The Presence aka GOD. Hell, look at what they had to do to clean up the mess he left behind.

Enyalus
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And it still does not change the fact that Darkseid was this close to replacing The Presence aka GOD.
That was Darkseid's boast. And that was about it. The Presence, The Source, and other high end cosmic entities could've probably blinked Darkseid away.

TricksterPriest
Hard to say. Darkseid got closer than anyone else. And there is the idea of stealing all free will means that he becomes the new god of the DCU.

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Yes it does. Earth 616 is the lynch-pin. And it still does not change the fact that Darkseid was this close to replacing The Presence aka GOD. Hell, look at what they had to do to clean up the mess he left behind.

I didnt get that he was replacing God in FC; thats a big boast.......




Tazer

TricksterPriest
"I. Am. The. New. God."

Not to mention Revelations and other statements. By taking free-will away, he almost became god, because all creation would be a reflection of him.

Tazer
Yo.

if he took away all free will, then there wouldve been nobody fighting him......and THAT didnt happen.




Tazer

TricksterPriest
He got close.

Darkseid: I. Am. The. New. God. All is one in Darkseid. This mighty body is my church. When I command your surrender, I speak with three billion voices... When I make a fist to crush your resistance, it is with three billion hands! When I stare into your eyes and shatter your dreams, and break your heart, it is with six billion eyes! Nothing like Darkseid has ever come among you: nothing will again, I will take you to a hell without exit or end, and there I will murder your souls! And make you crawl and beg! And DIE! DIE! DIE FOR DARKSEID!

Tazer
Yo.

he got about as close as I am to joining Lucille Roberts....and Im NOT a female. OR gay.

wink




Tazer

Charmander
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He got close.

Darkseid: I. Am. The. New. God. All is one in Darkseid. This mighty body is my church. When I command your surrender, I speak with three billion voices... When I make a fist to crush your resistance, it is with three billion hands! When I stare into your eyes and shatter your dreams, and break your heart, it is with six billion eyes! Nothing like Darkseid has ever come among you: nothing will again, I will take you to a hell without exit or end, and there I will murder your souls! And make you crawl and beg! And DIE! DIE! DIE FOR DARKSEID! In other words, 'monologue'

quanchi112
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
GDS 'seid already lost to a weaker Darkseid. This is Darkseid at his full strength, with the ALE, and GDS doesn't have access to any of the plot devices used to kill him.

Final Crisis Darkseid stomps. GDS Seid hadn't absorbed any other beings powers at that point when younger Ds defeated him through Orion's aid anyways.


It was a weaker GDS Sarkseid that the younger Ds faced. FC Ds did nothing straight up power wise to suggest he can take on Darkseid's greatest showing in gds.


GDS wins.

Galan007
Originally posted by Tazer
I wont dispute wat haapend in 7 Soldiers due to not having read it, however something else *mustve* happened that changed DS's relationship/control over the ALE when we get to FC, becuz if U look at how its used theres no way it was him in SOLE control of it, not when U have others having a hand in it. the only external catalyst i can remember, which momentarily slowed darky's total control over the ALE, was the period of time in which he was being reincarnated from the nearly-dead boss dark side, into turpin -

Originally posted by Tazer
by that token, why didnt DS enslave the OTHER 3 million ppl on the planet when he was fully "born" in Turpins body?? or better yet: why didnt he enslave Supes when he was right there in front of him (if he had the ALE, it doesnt GET much more easier than that..)?? there's a few potential reasons for that..

a.) by the time supes encountered darkseid he had already mastered the ability to entirely negate the ALE, by 'singing' the counter-vibrational 'life equation'. that said, i doubt the ALE would've had much of an effect.

b.) instead of just dying it seemed darky would rather have had supes 'kill' him - as doing so would have subsequently killed the 3 billion under his control

imo, either/both of those fit.

Originally posted by Tazer
that would be much abliged, since I can seem to find mine.........dangit.here's the scan i was talking about:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1863531_ale1.jpg

Originally posted by Tazer
my problem is that DS wasnt the 1 who sent it; had THAT been there case I wouldnt be questioning its usage........ but he was still the only one controlling those who were possessed by the ALE:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1863538_darky1.jpg http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1863539_darky2.jpg

that's my point.

Originally posted by Tazer
FC-DS still only took over ppl who were pre-conditiond to obey him, as opposed to GDS-DS. if by 'pre-conditioned' you mean, 'exposed to the ALE', then you are correct. how else could it have worked?

----

anyhow, i personally feel that FC-darky's TP is >. either way, GDS-darky wouldn't be able to resist the multiverse-busting singularity his FC counterpart caused.... so there. stick out tongue

Allankles
Originally posted by Enyalus
That was Darkseid's boast. And that was about it. The Presence, The Source, and other high end cosmic entities could've probably blinked Darkseid away.

Not likely, since he's a part of the Source. Btw The Source, the Presence (God), the Overvoid (The Primal Monitor's mind) are one and the same it appears, separated from the multiverse by the Source Wall which got breached by DS singularity.

For one the ALE's limitations were there primarily for story reasons. If DS was only battling high end cosmics the ALE would probably have been written operating the same way it did in the past where DS and Orion could command any entity by word to do their bidding, now in FC he could only do it to regular humans.

FC wouldn't be much of a story if DS could do this to anyone, so an extra element was added. Strong willed people like Spectre, WW and the other heroes couldn't be infected without an added medium, like in WW's case she was infected through a virus, in Spectre's with the help of the Spear and other heroes with Justifier helmets.

As far as DS boast is concerned, he was becoming the new god by transforming all of sentient life into his vessel, basically he was rewriting god's law. I believe FC: Revalations did a good job of describing what DS plans for creation (the multiverse and its sentients) were.

DS overinflated his importance in the grand scheme (Mandrakk was the ultimate threat larger than the Multiverse itself) but DS was becoming the supreme entity in the multiverse.

Allankles
Originally posted by Galan007


b.) instead of just dying it seemed darky would rather have had supes 'kill' him - as doing so would have subsequently killed the 3 billion under his control



I think this might be the best explanation, he was dying at that point and didn't see the point.

But I think he would have been unable to infect Supes directly like he did the regular humans. It appeared the ALE needed a device in order to infect those with strong minds.

On top of that he had Omega Sanction and didn't really need the ALE if eliminating Supes was a priority.

Galan007
Originally posted by Allankles
I think this might be the best explanation, he was dying at that point and didn't see the point.

But I think he would have been unable to infect Supes directly like he did the regular humans. It appeared the ALE needed a device in order to infect those with strong minds.

On top of that he had Omega Sanction and didn't really need the ALE if eliminating Supes was a priority. yeah, it seems to be the most character fitting explanation, imo.

agreed. however, most of the ALE-resistant beings carried metron's 'markings' somewhere on their person. if these markings weren't used, almost all of the heroes would've been ensnared by the ALE. even mr. miracle still chose to place the 'markings' on himself. imo, that speaks volumes concerning it's potency.

good point. though i'm not sure how powerful the OS really was. though it was presumably = the OE.

---

this is also a good quote..

"it is a mathematical proof that darkseid is the rightful master of everything in existence":

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1863693_ale2.jpg

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Galan007
the only external catalyst i can remember, which momentarily slowed darky's total control over the ALE, was the period of time in which he was being reincarnated from the nearly-dead boss dark side, into turpin -

here's the scan i was talking about:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1863531/ale1.jpg.html


well, theres that, and theres also him having understood a small bit of the *true* ALE from *I think* back during the last NG -series, which we saw evidence of in DotNG when he was able to resist M.M.'s FULL control of it..........but the thing of it is: he *never* had it in full, not enuff that he could use it as a weapon.

him not having the true ALE, and verily this is backed-up by G.M. in his explanation of it, and instead using that bastardized version of it, is the only way the events couldve played out as they did and make sense.

Originally posted by Galan007
there's a few potential reasons for that..

a.) by the time supes encountered darkseid he had already mastered the ability to entirely negate the ALE, by 'singing' the counter-vibrational 'life equation'. that said, i doubt the ALE would've had much of an effect.

b.) instead of just dying it seemed darky would rather have had supes 'kill' him - as doing so would have subsequently killed the 3 billion under his control

imo, either/both of those fit.

a) maybe so, but he probably wouldve needed to actively sing it for that to work, and we saw wat doing so *just once* did to his throat.....and even if U can let Supes pass, theres no explanation for Batman, whome he also encountered un-subjugated just b4 they squared off.

b) I dont think U can take wat DS said then as a literal example of wat was going to happen......for if that were the case then Bats (by extenuating circumstances to be sure) became the Earth Greatest Mass-Murderer. but since we didnt see *any* of the 3M ppl drop dead (not from the shot, NOR from the BR claiming wat was his), I only see that comment there as villain doing his "huffing" in from of his adversary.


Originally posted by Galan007
but he was still the only one controlling those who were possessed by the ALE:

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1863538/darky1.jpg.html http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/1863539/darky2.jpg.html

that's my point.

really?? cuz I thought it was Libra who controlled the Justifiers......

big grin

Originally posted by Galan007
if by 'pre-conditioned' you mean, 'exposed to the ALE', then you are correct. how else could it have worked?

----

anyhow, i personally feel that FC-darky's TP is >. either way, GDS-darky wouldn't be able to resist the multiverse-busting singularity his FC counterpart caused.... so there. stick out tongue

nono, wat I meant is that G.G.G. laid claim that he helped prepare the populace for DS's return "by using missionaries to spread the gospel of anti-life to every living soul"..........

GGG had laid out the ground-work for those who got taken by that other type of ALE.

--------------

ok, I guess yur gonna feel how U feel about it and the same goes for me.

and GDS-Ds wouldnt bother to resist it, since he'd simply ape the singularity and remake the entire multiverse in his image!! evil face




Tazer

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
it is a mathematical proof that darkseid is the rightful master of everything in existence":

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1863693_ale2.jpg

The only thing that scan is proof of, is that The Ray is ****ing awesome 131

Galan007
Originally posted by Tazer
him not having the true ALE, and verily this is backed-up by G.M. in his explanation of it, and instead using that bastardized version of it, is the only way the events couldve played out as they did and make sense. 'bastardized version'? an equation is what the ALE always was as grant himself said, "it is the e=mc2 of despair."

and it was this formula that darkseid mastered.

Originally posted by Tazer
a) maybe so, but he probably wouldve needed to actively sing it for that to work, and we saw wat doing so *just once* did to his throat.....and even if U can let Supes pass, theres no explanation for Batman, whome he also encountered un-subjugated just b4 they squared off. just knowing the 'life equation' probably would have been enough for supes to be immune.

Originally posted by Tazer
b) I dont think U can take wat DS said then as a literal example of wat was going to happen......for if that were the case then Bats (by extenuating circumstances to be sure) became the Earth Greatest Mass-Murderer. but since we didnt see *any* of the 3M ppl drop dead (not from the shot, NOR from the BR claiming wat was his), I only see that comment there as villain doing his "huffing" in from of his adversary. darkseid wasn't killed when batman shot him - nor did he immediately die when the BR showed up. it was only when superman sang the 'LE' that darkseid/the ALE were negated.

Originally posted by Tazer
nono, wat I meant is that G.G.G. laid claim that he helped prepare the populace for DS's return "by using missionaries to spread the gospel of anti-life to every living soul".......... i think you're missing my point. i'm not saying outside variables didn't help darky spread the ALE. i'm saying that darkseid alone was controlling those who became ensnared by it.

Enyalus
Good that you pointed that out (about him having help to spread the ALE), Galan. Because in multiple stories, like FC, like Rock of Ages, like The Dark Side, and even back in NG v1 (IIRC) Darkseid, once having the ALE, needed to use tech to spread it. He couldn't just randomly infect anyone he wanted to.

And about the multiverse crushing singularity...It wouldn't kill GDS Darkseid before he destroyed FC Darkseid's body. Which counts as a win in a KMC thread, prolly.

And there's always the chance that GDS DS's Omega Effect just erases FC Darkseid's existence. This was the PC OE, afterall.

Galan007
Originally posted by Enyalus
Good that you pointed that out (about him having help to spread the ALE), Galan. Because in multiple stories, like FC, like Rock of Ages, like The Dark Side, and even back in NG v1 (IIRC) Darkseid, once having the ALE, needed to use tech to spread it. He couldn't just randomly infect anyone he wanted to.

And about the multiverse crushing singularity...It wouldn't kill GDS Darkseid before he destroyed FC Darkseid's body. Which counts as a win in a KMC thread, prolly.

And there's always the chance that GDS DS's Omega Effect just erases FC Darkseid's existence. This was the PC OE, afterall. yeah, external sources helping spread the ALE isn't what i was debating. it was darky's control over the beings infected that i'ze commenting on.

OE/OS, same shit, different name.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Galan007
OE/OS, same shit, different name.
Except OE = stronger, 'cause it's PC. cool

Galan007
tee hee.. cool

Allankles
Originally posted by Enyalus
Good that you pointed that out (about him having help to spread the ALE), Galan. Because in multiple stories, like FC, like Rock of Ages, like The Dark Side, and even back in NG v1 (IIRC) Darkseid, once having the ALE, needed to use tech to spread it. He couldn't just randomly infect anyone he wanted to.



I think he could still infect people by word alone. Remember in Revelations Montoya was being infected just by words before Radiant teleported her to safety. Also in 7 Soldiers, DS was able to infect one of Desaad's patients just by word alone.

Also I remember Simonson and Starlin gave it the same properties.

The only element that seemed unique with FC was that strong minded beings like Spectre and the heroes couldn't be infected without a delivery device with overrode whatever innate defenses they had.

Galan007
Originally posted by Allankles
I think he could still infect people by word alone. Remember in Revelations Montoya was being infected just by words before Radiant teleported her to safety. Also in 7 Soldiers, DS was able to infect one of Desaad's patients just by word alone. what's odd is that in "seven soldiers" boss dark side seemed to be the only being capable of spreading the ALE, by merely speaking it to other characters :

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1865342_ale1.jpg

fast-forward to "FC" and quite a few of darkseid's underlings were capable of doing the same. it's odd, but i still maintain that the period of time in which darkseid was being reincarnated into turpin is a good explination as to why other characters were able to use the ALE

srug

Allankles
http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/39.gif That's a possibility Galan, but it's also probable that DS gave them the authority to use it. He resurrected them after all.

Galan007
that's what i mean. darkseid gave his croanies the ability to use the ALE, during the time when he was being reincarnated into turpin

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