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Team have to hunt down and kill Pun. Pun has 3 weeks prep and full help from Henry during and after prep.

After 3 weeks prep team have to hunt down and kill Pun. No Cerebero. Let the hate begin.

Do the team have three weeks prep too?

Of course not Pr, you should know better than that. This is one sided.

Originally posted by Raoul
Do the team have three weeks prep too?

After the 3 weeks yeah. If they want they can go back to the X-mansion and come up with a plan and use tech. They cant get any help from any other X-members and they cant use Cerebero.




Originally posted by The Nuul
Of course not Pr, you should know better than that. This is one sided.

Well you failed there. I made some Cyke vs Pun thread therefore every thread after that means its going to be one-sided.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
After the 3 weeks yeah. If they want they can go back to the X-mansion and come up with a plan and use tech. They cant get any help from any other X-members and they cant use Cerebero.






Well you failed there. I made some Cyke vs Pun thread therefore every thread after that means its going to be one-sided.

team, then.

Originally posted by Raoul
team, then.

Fair enough. Why? Its three heads vs 2 but Pun and henry get a head start and Cyke is not in his element.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Fair enough. Why? Its three heads vs 2 but Pun and henry get a head start and Cyke is not in his element.

what's to stop them getting emma frost to help them locate him? is outside help banned too?

Originally posted by Raoul
what's to stop them getting emma frost to help them locate him? is outside help banned too?

Thats not allowed.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They cant get any help from any other X-members and they cant use Cerebero.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats not allowed.

eh, frank, then.

with those resources, advantages and head start, any reasonably intelligent person should be able to pull it off, if they don't get stupid.

Originally posted by Raoul
eh, frank, then.

with those resources, advantages and head start, any reasonably intelligent person should be able to pull it off, if they don't get stupid.

You do know that the X men can use disguises and Wolverine has actually used it to foil an assassination attempt?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You do know that the X men can use disguises and Wolverine has actually used it to foil an assassination attempt?

what's a disguise going to do if frank just spends his time running from them?

if they don't kill him within an alloted time, that should count as a win for frank, no?

Originally posted by Raoul
what's a disguise going to do if frank just spends his time running from them?

if they don't kill him within an alloted time, that should count as a win for frank, no?

I think theres a misunderstanding the team have to kill each other. Theres no time limit.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I think theres a misunderstanding the team have to kill each other. Theres no time limit.

so frank has to kill the x-men?

the x-men, then, unless frank is willing to accept collateral damage by using a nuke or something...

although, would that fancy skrull rifle kill colossus?

Originally posted by Raoul
so frank has to kill the x-men?

the x-men, then, unless frank is willing to accept collateral damage by using a nuke or something...

although, would that fancy skrull rifle kill colossus?

Theres no proof whatsoever that the skrull rifle could kill Collosus. He does have access to Iron Man level tech and he was capable of killing Rhino.

Pun can take out Cyclops and Wolverine but could take Collosus out with difficulty. Not so long ago Collosus got Koed by so no-name robot.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Theres no proof whatsoever that the skrull rifle could kill Collosus. He does have access to Iron Man level tech and he was capable of killing Rhino.

Pun can take out Cyclops and Wolverine but could take Collosus out with difficulty. Not so long ago Collosus got Koed by so no-name robot.

ah, ok.

i don't think he'll take out cyclops and logan if they're hunting him. yes, he can, i'm not disputing that he can, but i think cyclops and wolverine compliment each other far too well, and would get the drop on frank.

in what issue? the colossus thing, i mean? not uncanny 49... 6, i think it was. the giant russian things?

Originally posted by Raoul
ah, ok.

i don't think he'll take out cyclops and logan if they're hunting him. yes, he can, i'm not disputing that he can, but i think cyclops and wolverine compliment each other far too well, and would get the drop on frank.


Defintely possible bare in mind Frank now has crazy shit like the Pym particles so he can shrink himself as well.

Originally posted by Raoul

in what issue? the colossus thing, i mean? not uncanny 49... 6, i think it was. the giant russian things?

Yeah I cant remember the exact issue but yeah its the red room thingey. Its not a bad showing though.....

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Defintely possible bare in mind Frank now has crazy shit like the Pym particles so he can shrink himself as well.



Yeah I cant remember the exact issue but yeah its the red room thingey. Its not a bad showing though.....

even with the pym particles, though, wolverine should be able to sense him.

also, there's not a lot he can do if he shrinks his weapon too. he's handicapping himself.

the colossus thing wasn't, imo, any indication of him being weak or strong durability wise. we were never given any indication of how strong the beams were.

facepalm

facepalm

facepalm






































































shrug

Sorry that facepalm was for Kris.

Originally posted by Raoul
even with the pym particles, though, wolverine should be able to sense him.

No not at all Winter Solider was able to hide his scent and that was without pymn particles.

Originally posted by Raoul

also, there's not a lot he can do if he shrinks his weapon too. he's handicapping himself.

Not all he killed The Hoods enhanced guards using his weapons while he was shrunk.

Originally posted by Raoul

the colossus thing wasn't, imo, any indication of him being weak or strong durability wise. we were never given any indication of how strong the beams were.

I know but it wasnt an uber showing of durability.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Sorry that facepalm was for Kris.



No not at all Winter Solider was able to hide his scent and that was without pymn particles.



Not all he killed The Hoods enhanced guards using his weapons while he was shrunk.



I know but it wasnt an uber showing of durability.

how does that apply? the winter soldier thing, i mean.

what weapons did he use?

Originally posted by Raoul
how does that apply? the winter soldier thing, i mean.

Well Winter Solider has similar training to Punisher and he was able to hide his scent from Wolverine, if WS can do that at full height and evade detection, its going to be even harder for Wolverine to find Punisher when hes super small. Hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by Raoul
what weapons did he use?

A gun.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well Winter Solider has similar training to Punisher and he was able to hide his scent from Wolverine, if WS can do that at full height and evade detection, its going to be even harder for Wolverine to find Punisher when hes super small. Hope that makes sense.



A gun.

you can't use the feats of one person for another, no matter how similar they are.

a normal gun? or some kind of special gun that is still effective when shrunken?

Originally posted by Raoul
you can't use the feats of one person for another, no matter how similar they are.

No offensive but you need to give me a reason as to why I cant do that otherwise all you're doing is dictating to me.

All Winter Soldier did was smear himself in ink and attack Wolverine in an ink factory.

Originally posted by Raoul

a normal gun? or some kind of special gun that is still effective when shrunken?

The gun looked kinda hi-tech but there was nothing to indicate that it was some sort of special gun. It was never stated by anybody. At any rate even if it was its still part of his arsenal and he can use it in this thread.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No offensive but you need to give me a reason as to why I cant do that otherwise all you're doing is dictating to me.

All Winter Soldier did was smear himself in ink and attack Wolverine in an ink factory.



The gun looked kinda hi-tech but there was nothing to indicate that it was some sort of special gun. It was never stated by anybody. At any rate even if it was its still part of his arsenal and he can use it in this thread. You can't use feats by proxy. End of story. facepalm We don't use Thor feats for BRB. What makes you think your argument is any closer. So save my time and your time and just stop. Thanks.

Originally posted by Badabing
You can't use feats by proxy. End of story. facepalm We don't use Thor feats for BRB. What makes you think your argument is any closer. So save my time and your time and just stop. Thanks.

C'mon Bada give me a break I stopped pestering you didnt I?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
C'mon Bada give me a break I stopped pestering you didnt I? Fine...grumpy

Where's Carver or Goober then? mmm

*phew* *quickly edits* and dont come back again!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No offensive but you need to give me a reason as to why I cant do that otherwise all you're doing is dictating to me.

All Winter Soldier did was smear himself in ink and attack Wolverine in an ink factory.



The gun looked kinda hi-tech but there was nothing to indicate that it was some sort of special gun. It was never stated by anybody. At any rate even if it was its still part of his arsenal and he can use it in this thread.

what bada said.

it would have to be a special gun. if he was that small, a normal gun won't do the kind of damage required, especially at distance.

Originally posted by Raoul
what bada said.

Umm Bada doesnt always neccesarily disagree he does it sometimes because he likes picking in me.

You still havent given me a reasn except for "no you cant". They both have similar training and use similar techniques of assassination thats a better explanation than "You cant use it."

Originally posted by Raoul

it would have to be a special gun. if he was that small, a normal gun won't do the kind of damage required, especially at distance.

At any rate it doesnt matter because he still has it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Umm Bada doesnt always neccesarily disagree he does it sometimes because he likes picking in me.

You still havent given me a reasn except for "no you cant". They both have similar training and use similar techniques of assassination thats a better explanation than "You cant use it."



At any rate it doesnt matter because he still has it.

we just don't allow it on the forum, and bada was still serious about that.

GL Hal can't use GL Kyle's feats, same goes for every GL. Like bada said, Thor and BRB can't share feats. Same goes for the Flashes.

at that size, i think logan can still sense him, though.

Originally posted by Raoul
we just don't allow it on the forum, and bada was still serious about that.

GL Hal can't use GL Kyle's feats, same goes for every GL. Like bada said, Thor and BRB can't share feats. Same goes for the Flashes.


All he did was smear himself in ink....

Originally posted by Raoul

at that size, i think logan can still sense him, though.

I guess so but there are millions of examples of people sneaking up on Wolverine and sniping and jumping him etc etc. Its actually not that hard to ambush him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
All he did was smear himself in ink....



I guess so but there are millions of examples of people sneaking up on Wolverine and sniping and jumping him etc etc. Its actually not that hard to ambush him.

yes, but it's still his feat.

that's why logan has cyclops and colossus with him. if logan was alone, i'd be more inclined to give frank a chance, but the x-team compliment each other very well.

Originally posted by Raoul
yes, but it's still his feat.

Meh, ok

Originally posted by Raoul

that's why logan has cyclops and colossus with him. if logan was alone, i'd be more inclined to give frank a chance, but the x-team compliment each other very well.

If Wolverine cant detect him I dont see how the others will. At any rate Punisher can snipe Cyke from miles away and then they just have two brains.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone




No not at all Winter Solider was able to hide his scent and that was without pymn particles.


.
Yea true he had no particles he was just covered in ink while hiding in an ink plant with extremely loud machinary which nutralized wolverines hearing and smell........context please

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Yea true he had no particles he was just covered in ink while hiding in an ink plant with extremely loud machinary which nutralized wolverines hearing and smell........context please

Yeah and you dont get it. The point is its not that hard for somebody like Punisher to pull-off or to think of.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Meh, ok



If Wolverine cant detect him I dont see how the others will. At any rate Punisher can snipe Cyke from miles away and then they just have two brains.

you're assuming cyclops would leave himself open to such things.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah and you dont get it. The point is its not that hard for somebody like Punisher to pull-off or to think of.

yes, but the fact is, a specific set of circumstances had to occur to even get logan near the ink factory.

Originally posted by Raoul
you're assuming cyclops would leave himself open to such things.



yes, but the fact is, a specific set of circumstances had to occur to even get logan near the ink factory.
cosigned.



Not to mention winter soldier had help and winter soldier got beat down.

Originally posted by Raoul
you're assuming cyclops would leave himself open to such things.


Well you know what you say prove to me how he wouldnt get sniped. Hell he can shoot Cyke from miles away.

Originally posted by Raoul

yes, but the fact is, a specific set of circumstances had to occur to even get logan near the ink factory.

Ermm he shot Wolverine in the back with a tranquiliser gun and he stumbled into the factory...thats something that Pun could do. Most likely if anything if Punisher doesnt want to be found he wont be and it will be them following him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone




Ermm he shot Wolverine in the back with a tranquiliser gun and he stumbled into the factory.

That never happened, you just made that up lol.

First he was shot with a bullet, second he never stumble into th ink factory, third it was no winter soldier who shot him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone

..thats something that Pun could do. Most likely if anything if Punisher doesnt want to be found he wont be and it will be them following him.

No it not.


Actaully if wolverien wants to find punisher he will. Were talking about the man who found friggin a mystique from haft way around the world in the middle of no were in under 9 hours

Originally posted by Battlehammer
That never happened, you just made that up lol.

First he was shot with a bullet, second he never stumble into th ink factory, third it was no winter soldier who shot him.

Thats the thing if you cant remember something correctly people will accuse you of lying. Anyway it seems somebody shot him, he stumbled into the factory and WS was waiting for him. Its still not a big deal. The person who shot him wasnt as skilled as Pun.


Originally posted by Battlehammer

No it not.


Actaully if wolverien wants to find punisher he will. Were talking about the man who found friggin a mystique from haft way around the world in the middle of no were in under 9 hours

Hes not better at tracking than Dr Doom. Hes not better than DD, MK, Black Widow, Shang Chi and Dagger combined.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Thats the thing if you cant remember something correctly people will accuse you of lying. Anyway it seems somebody shot him, he stumbled into the factory and WS was waiting for him. Its still not a big deal. The person who shot him wasnt as skilled as Pun.

He dident stumble into it, he new he was being lured into the factory he did not care, because he needed information about the people in weapon x facility and what happen to his wife. Person skill level is irrelevent, he was tracking WS not some one elses.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Hes not better at tracking than Dr Doom. Hes not better than DD, MK, Black Widow, Shang Chi and Dagger combined.
Yes he most certainly is a better tracker then Doom.

yes he better then any of them, with out a doubt. Also when did all of them even attempt to track him.

and Wolverine has tracked down people harder then punisher to find like mystique

Originally posted by Battlehammer
He dident stumble into it, he new he was being lured into the factory he did not care, because he needed information about the people in weapon x facility and what happen to his wife. Person skill level is irrelevent, he was tracking WS not some one elses.

Prove it.



Originally posted by Battlehammer

Yes he most certainly is a better tracker then Doom.

Get outta here im not going to argue with you.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

yes he better then any of them, with out a doubt. Also when did all of them even attempt to track him.

Doesnt matter Wolverine is better than all of them combined.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

and Wolverine has tracked down people harder then punisher to find like mystique

All I know is Wolverine isnt a better tracker than the team and Doom.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Team have to hunt down and kill Pun. Pun has 3 weeks prep and full help from Henry during and after prep.

After 3 weeks prep team have to hunt down and kill Pun. No Cerebero.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
facepalm
Originally posted by Raoul
facepalm
Originally posted by Badabing
facepalm
Agreed.

Team ftw.

Again.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well you know what you say prove to me how he wouldnt get sniped. Hell he can shoot Cyke from miles away.



Ermm he shot Wolverine in the back with a tranquiliser gun and he stumbled into the factory...thats something that Pun could do. Most likely if anything if Punisher doesnt want to be found he wont be and it will be them following him.

if cyclops knows frank is gunning for him, leaving himself open to sniping would be a pretty ridiculous thing to do.

so frank would have to:

a) lead the team to an ink factory
b) stun logan while evading the other two
c) lead them all inside where he can take them down.

it's a precise set of circumstances that most likely won't apply to this match.

i know frank CAN go undetected if he wants, but for me, logan is more likely to detect him than frank is to stay hidden.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Agreed.

Team ftw.

Again.

Apart from Kris do you even know why they were facepalming?




Originally posted by Raoul
if cyclops knows frank is gunning for him, leaving himself open to sniping would be a pretty ridiculous thing to do.

LOL I know hes not going to leave himself open to being sniped im asking you yo prove to me that he cant be siniped. You know when I say that a character can do such and such you so its not good enough to say he smart enough you need to explain how he wont get sniped.

What chance does Cyke have of not getting sniped when he was watching DD, MK, Shang Chi and Dagger without being noticed? DD was oboudly trying to hid his activities from the Punisher because he obvoulsy doesnt want Frank to find out what he was doing.

Originally posted by Raoul

so frank would have to:

a) lead the team to an ink factory
b) stun logan while evading the other two
c) lead them all inside where he can take them down.

it's a precise set of circumstances that most likely won't apply to this match.

Anyway it doesnt matter because Wolverine has been sneaked up on and shot loads of times.

Originally posted by Raoul

i know frank CAN go undetected if he wants, but for me, logan is more likely to detect him than frank is to stay hidden.

So you think Wolverine has more of a chance of finding Frank than Dr Doom has or DD, MK, Black Widow and Dagger?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway it doesnt matter because Wolverine has been sneaked up on and shot loads of times.

Essentially, are you saying Punisher has never been tracked down before?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So you think Wolverine has more of a chance of finding Frank than Dr Doom has or DD, MK, Black Widow and Dagger?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So you think Wolverine has more of a chance of finding Frank than Dr Doom has or DD, MK, Black Widow and Dagger?

Well, I'm not sure about Doom (though Doom isn't really known for his tracking ability) but DD, MK, Black Widow and Dagger really aren't master trackers. DD has enhanced senses, but he admitted that his tracking sense is nowhere near Wolverine's (it was in Secret Wars, I think).

It comes down to a normal man with mad tactical skills vs. a mutant with tracking powers and mad tracking skills. Being able to track down Mystique was quite a feat as hiding and blending in is what Mystique does.

I don't think sniping will be the best thing to do against this team. He'll naturally take down Cyke first, and when that happens he's easy pickings for Wolverine to track down and Colossus to take down. If you can come up with something that'd take down Colossus and one-shot Wolverine, I'd give him a few wins. But the way I see things now, Team takes this not-so-easily.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Apart from Kris do you even know why they were facepalming?






LOL I know hes not going to leave himself open to being sniped im asking you yo prove to me that he cant be siniped. You know when I say that a character can do such and such you so its not good enough to say he smart enough you need to explain how he wont get sniped.

What chance does Cyke have of not getting sniped when he was watching DD, MK, Shang Chi and Dagger without being noticed? DD was oboudly trying to hid his activities from the Punisher because he obvoulsy doesnt want Frank to find out what he was doing.



Anyway it doesnt matter because Wolverine has been sneaked up on and shot loads of times.



So you think Wolverine has more of a chance of finding Frank than Dr Doom has or DD, MK, Black Widow and Dagger?

you seriously didn't just ask me to prove a negative, did you?

Wolverine is a better out and out tracker than any of those people, so yes. cyclops picking him for x-force (as stupid as that whole concept is) wasn't a coincedence.

Phantom Zone I thought this was Punisher vs team not Winter Soilder vs Woverine?

Anyway team wins.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Essentially, are you saying Punisher has never been tracked down before?


No im saying better trackers have failed to find him.



Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Well, I'm not sure about Doom (though Doom isn't really known for his tracking ability)

He is known for his intelligence and Doom was uisng his intelligence to find Pun using probabilities etc.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

but DD, MK, Black Widow and Dagger really aren't master trackers. DD has enhanced senses, but he admitted that his tracking sense is nowhere near Wolverine's (it was in Secret Wars, I think).

First of all I think you're refering to The Infinite War were DD questioned wether Wolverines sense of smell was better than his.

DD is an expert tracker. Hes also been able to detect shape shifters.

http://img509.imageshack.us/i/doubleedgeomega335tq.jpg/

Also im saying that the team as a whole are better trackers than Wolverine.

You have DD who has senses more accurate than Wolverine and has actually studied The Punisher before attempting to track him down. Not only that his senses are so accurate he as able to detect shape shifters.

You have Black Widow who as alot of experience in this sort of thing being a member of the KGB.

Moon Knight who has advanced tech, has been a mercenery and would have tracking skills.

Shang Chi Fathers trains assassins and and Shang Chi has lots of experience fighting them. He also infiiltrated the Warbounds spaceship and tracked down Humbug.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

It comes down to a normal man with mad tactical skills vs. a mutant with tracking powers and mad tracking skills. Being able to track down Mystique was quite a feat as hiding and blending in is what Mystique does.

So is being able to detect a demon in human form. Also Punisher has shown better tracking skills than Wolverine.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

I don't think sniping will be the best thing to do against this team. He'll naturally take down Cyke first, and when that happens he's easy pickings for Wolverine to track down and Colossus to take down. If you can come up with something that'd take down Colossus and one-shot Wolverine, I'd give him a few wins. But the way I see things now, Team takes this not-so-easily.

Why wouldnt sniping be used he has a skrull rifle that can kill people from miles away. He also has the Satans Claws that is capable of disintergrating Wolverines flesh to the bone.



Originally posted by Raoul
you seriously didn't just ask me to prove a negative, did you?


Ok why do I have to prove anything? Thats how a debate works both sides have to bring their evidence. I have actually brought evidence that Cyclops would be sniped you brought "No he won't." If you're going to tell people thats not proof in a debate dont tell me to do it either.

Originally posted by Raoul

Wolverine is a better out and out tracker than any of those people, so yes. cyclops picking him for x-force (as stupid as that whole concept is) wasn't a coincedence.

Im not talking about the group individually im talking about them as a whole. Its also not a coincedence that Shang Chi was brought into the team either. Im not even sure if you can actually prove that Wolverine is a better tracker than DD, his sense of smell is better but not hearing. Also Punisher has succeeded in tracking down somebody before Wolverine has, so stating that doesnt neccesarily prove anything.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Apart from Kris do you even know why they were facepalming?
Yeah, but I used the Bada's and Raoul's facepalms out of context to serve my purposes in pointing out how retarded and tired a debate this is... AGAIN.

I'm really not up for a drawn-out debate, because you'll just start reaching in any way you can to discredit Cyclops, Wolverine, and Colossus while playing up all of Castle's feats to assure him the victory. Does he have a chance? Sure, but just like winning the jackpot of the lottery, it's slim to none.

Team, FTW.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Yeah, but I used the Bada's and Raoul's facepalms out of context to serve my purposes in pointing out how retarded and tired a debate this is... AGAIN.

I'm really not up for a drawn-out debate, because you'll just start reaching in any way you can to discredit Cyclops, Wolverine, and Colossus while playing up all of Castle's feats to assure him the victory. Does he have a chance? Sure, but just like winning the jackpot of the lottery, it's slim to none.

Team, FTW.

Don't know what you're talking about. My last thread was actually closed by Bada by my request because you were talking out of your arse. Heres what I said paraphrase "EI is talking some crap if he actually provides some proof ands stop waffling keep the thread open, otherwise close the thread, the thread got closed.

Keep kidding yourself.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Don't know what you're talking about. My last thread was actually closed by Bada by my request because you were talking out of your arse. Heres what I said paraphrase "EI is talking some crap if he actually provides some proof ands stop waffling keep the thread open, otherwise close the thread, the thread got closed.

Keep kidding yourself.

And yet, if I remember correctly, most people in the last thread(s) were agreeing with me, or at the very least, disagreeing with you. It wouldn't do any good to provide any scans, because you'd just say something like "Punisher evaded Doom, and Doom is smarter than anyone; therefore, Punisher is more cunning than Doom, which makes him more cunning than the X-Men."

Keep kidding yourself, though.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
And yet, if I remember correctly, most people in the last thread(s) were agreeing with me, or at the very least, disagreeing with you.

It wouldn't do any good to provide any scans, because you'd just say something like "Punisher evaded Doom, and Doom is smarter than anyone; therefore, Punisher is more cunning than Doom, which makes him more cunning than the X-Men."

Keep kidding yourself, though.


If you're going to tell me to stop kidding yourself at least get what I said correct. Actually I said the team win 7/10, and one of the people that agreed with me was Roaul considering hes an Xman fan and probably knows more about the characters being discuseed than the other posters thats not helping your case either. Clearly Roaul doesnt know what hes talking about either or Bada for that matter. When you also dont know basic shit like Doom has military knowledge doesnt help either.

Now run along.

P.S. I wouldnt provide scans to you anyway because you would just pick it to death. Im not going to the effort of digging through my collection, switching on my other computer so you can come out with something absurd.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
If you're going to tell me to stop kidding yourself at least get what I said correct. Actually I said the team win 7/10, and one of the people that agreed with me was Roaul considering hes an Xman fan and probably knows more about the characters being discuseed than the other posters thats not helping your case either. Clearly Roaul doesnt know what hes talking about either or Bada for that matter. When you also dont know basic shit like Doom has military knowledge doesnt help either.
I haven't seen the thread in long time, but from what I remember, you were kicking and screaming at anyone who doubted the Punisher's chances, and you didn't admit to the team winning a majority until near the end of the thread. I also remember Raoul gave the Punisher better odds than I did, but was still skeptical about a Punisher victory.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
P.S. I wouldnt provide scans to you anyway because you would just pick it to death. Im not going to the effort of digging through my collection, switching on my other computer so you can come out with something absurd.
It's called logic. Try it some time.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
No im saying better trackers have failed to find him.

Like who? Do you have proof that they are better trackers?

Also, I made this statement because you mentioned that Wolverine has been ambushed before. I'm only asking if Punisher's been tracked down before.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He is known for his intelligence and Doom was uisng his intelligence to find Pun using probabilities etc.

Doom isn't known for his tracking skills, and he's certainly not a better tracker than Wolverine.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
First of all I think you're refering to The Infinite War were DD questioned wether Wolverines sense of smell was better than his.

DD is an expert tracker. Hes also been able to detect shape shifters.

http://img509.imageshack.us/i/doubleedgeomega335tq.jpg/

Also im saying that the team as a whole are better trackers than Wolverine.

You have DD who has senses more accurate than Wolverine and has actually studied The Punisher before attempting to track him down. Not only that his senses are so accurate he as able to detect shape shifters.

You have Black Widow who as alot of experience in this sort of thing being a member of the KGB.

Moon Knight who has advanced tech, has been a mercenery and would have tracking skills.

Shang Chi Fathers trains assassins and and Shang Chi has lots of experience fighting them. He also infiiltrated the Warbounds spaceship and tracked down Humbug.

So, what you're saying is that a bunch of people with advanced tracking skills (but far less than Wolverine's) can become potentially better at tracking than Wolverine as a team? Do you even know how tracking works? Tracking isn't a numbers game.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So is being able to detect a demon in human form. Also Punisher has shown better tracking skills than Wolverine.

Proof? And please post scan to establish context.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why wouldnt sniping be used he has a skrull rifle that can kill people from miles away. He also has the Satans Claws that is capable of disintergrating Wolverines flesh to the bone.

Cuz the minute you fire your weapon, you give out your location. Means that he can prolly take one of them but the rest is gonna be on him like flies of poop.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok why do I have to prove anything? Thats how a debate works both sides have to bring their evidence. I have actually brought evidence that Cyclops would be sniped you brought "No he won't." If you're going to tell people thats not proof in a debate dont tell me to do it either.

you have to prove he can. that's how debating works. i don't have to prove he can't, because proving a negative isn't exactly easy. actually, asking anyone to do it is downright stupid.

i said that both teams had a chance to win. i said i thought logan could track a shrunken punisher, which to my knowledge, there's no reason that he can't.


i'm not replying to the rest, because, well, i don't see the point.

Originally posted by Raoul
you have to prove he can. that's how debating works. i don't have to prove he can't, because proving a negative isn't exactly easy. actually, asking anyone to do it is downright stupid.

Stop twisting shit around Roaul. You have to prove he can as well. Just like me. :/

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stop twisting shit around Roaul. You have to prove he can as well. Just like me. :/

How can he prove a negative?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
How can he prove a negative?

Well why do I have to prove anything?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I haven't seen the thread in long time, but from what I remember, you were kicking and screaming at anyone who doubted the Punisher's chances, and you didn't admit to the team winning a majority until near the end of the thread. I also remember Raoul gave the Punisher better odds than I did, but was still skeptical about a Punisher victory.



Ermm ive given the X men team 7/10 in other Punisher vs thread. Thats pretty much typical of your self-serving logic. Roaul agreed with me thats all that matters.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

It's called logic. Try it some time.

The thread got closed because he was talking nonsense = I need to try some logic

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well why do I have to prove anything?

Because the claims you made aren't all negatives, they can be proven.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Stop twisting shit around Roaul. You have to prove he can as well. Just like me. :/

i'm not twisting anything. it's how the forum works. we prove positives, not negatives.

you have to prove a character can accomplish what you're claiming. i never said cyclops couldn't get sniped, i said leaving himself open would be stupid, which it would be.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Like who? Do you have proof that they are better trackers?


DD + his team. I think I may have to agree with you about Doom for now.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Also, I made this statement because you mentioned that Wolverine has been ambushed before. I'm only asking if Punisher's been tracked down before.

Of course he has hes not perfect. Not sure how that proves anything.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Doom isn't known for his tracking skills, and he's certainly not a better tracker than Wolverine.

I'll have to get back to you on that.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210
So, what you're saying is that a bunch of people with advanced tracking skills (but far less than Wolverine's) can become potentially better at tracking than Wolverine as a team?

Er no DD isnt far less skilled than Wolverine is better in some aspects than Wolverine is and like Wolverine he has been able to detect shape shifiters, therefore if anything Wolverine is not a greater tracker than DD by a massive margin.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Do you even know how tracking works? Tracking isn't a numbers game.

Please dont try to dictate logic to me. If anything Wolverine is not a better tracker than DD by a massive number, but somehow you're now trying to tell me that the other four arent going to make DD an even better tracker. Since when did more people looking for somebody become less effective....y'know thats why they were requested in the first place. So yes in these circumstances it is.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Proof? And please post scan to establish context.


Wheres your proof that DD said Wolverine was a much better tracker?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Cuz the minute you fire your weapon, you give out your location. Means that he can prolly take one of them but the rest is gonna be on him like flies of poop.

They're going to be on him like flies like poop when Punisher can snipe Cyclops from four miles away........and you want me to provide scans for context?

Originally posted by Raoul


you have to prove a character can accomplish what you're claiming.

Exactly and you're claiming that Wolverine can find Punisher, so therefore you have to prove. Yeah you are twisting stuff around.


Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Because the claims you made aren't all negatives, they can be proven.

Having to prove that Punisher can hide from Wolverine is the same as having to prove that Wolverine can find him.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Having to prove that Punisher can hide from Wolverine is the same as having to prove that Wolverine can find him.

Wolverine has superhuman senses.

Nor was that the issue at hand.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The thread got closed because he was talking nonsense = I need to try some logic

The thread got closed because you threw a hissyfit when you couldn't make your case, then you had Bada close it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ermm ive given the X men team 7/10 in other Punisher vs thread. Thats pretty much typical of your self-serving logic. Roaul agreed with me thats all that matters.
Riiiiiiiight.....

You argued against Frank losing for 6 pages until you finally gave in to the fact that the team would win a solid majority from Castle. I call 'em as I see 'em, Bubba... not how my inner fanboy wants them to play out.

Raoul didn't agree with you. You simply caved and finally agreed with the rest of us that Castle would get his ass handed to him more often than not. This new thread is just a repeat of the last.
Originally posted by Raoul
punisher? seriously?

god, your wankery knows no bounds sometimes. seriously.
Originally posted by Raoul
oh get over yourself. stop whining, and GROW SOME DAMN BALLS.
Originally posted by Badabing
Anyway, back to the topic. Frank loses.
Originally posted by Raoul
ugh, i don't care anymore.

cyclops and co 7/8 out of ten, for the reasons bada put forward, and cyke's ability to prep on the fly.
Originally posted by Raoul
oh no, a mod based put down. whatever will i do.

please, keep whining. you're so very good at it.
Originally posted by Raoul
No i don't. god dammit man, seriously. stop arguing semantics.
Yep. You guys saw eye-to-eye in that thread.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Wolverine has superhuman senses.

facepalm

Originally posted by Kris Blaze


Nor was that the issue at hand.

Actually I think you're right. Its about wether Cyke can hide from being sniped from Pun. If I have to prove that Pun can snipe Cyke he has to prove that Cyke can stop himself from being sniped.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
The thread got closed because you threw a hissyfit when you couldn't make your case, then you had Bada close it.


I spoke to him personally and asked specifically to close it but keep it open if you provided decent evidence. You dont listen do you?



Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Riiiiiiiight.....

You argued against Frank losing for 6 pages until you finally gave in to the fact that the team would win a solid majority from Castle. I call 'em as I see 'em, Bubba... not how my inner fanboy wants them to play out.

Raoul didn't agree with you. You simply caved and finally agreed with the rest of us that Castle would get his ass handed to him more often than not. This new thread is just a repeat of the last




Yep. You guys saw eye-to-eye in that thread.

Self serving nonsense.

1. Already given Punisher 7/10 in other X-men vs threads edit: I mean given Xmen 7/10 in other vs threads
2. Stop twisting shit around and find the quote were I said the team wins 7/10. Stop wasting my and your time. Obvoulsy you decided to leave that out.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Exactly and you're claiming that Wolverine can find Punisher, so therefore you have to prove. Yeah you are twisting stuff around.




Having to prove that Punisher can hide from Wolverine is the same as having to prove that Wolverine can find him.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Wolverine has superhuman senses.

Nor was that the issue at hand.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
facepalm



Actually I think you're right. Its about wether Cyke can hide from being sniped from Pun. If I have to prove that Pun can snipe Cyke he has to prove that Cyke can stop himself from being sniped.

it's called keeping your head down.

not always going to work, granted, but it does sometimes.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I spoke to him personally and asked specifically to close it but keep it open if you provided decent evidence. You dont listen do you?
You asked him to close it but to keep it open.... You don't think before you type, do you?

I provided information for real bullet velocities when you brought up that nonsense about mercy bullets, which you claimed you couldn't see, yet the thread still got closed.



Originally posted by Phantom Zone
1. Already given Punisher 7/10 in other X-men vs threads
2. Stop twisting shit around and find the quote were I said the team wins 7/10. Stop wasting my and your time. Obvoulsy you decided to leave that out.
1. You caved from your usual position (as always) and agreed with Bada, who was in agreement with the rest of us that Castle would get punked for the majority. The numbers aren't important. You went in ranting about Punisher winning with no mention of this 7/10 X-Men majority you claim to have had all along until Page 6.

2. Here's the damned link for anyone who wants to see:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=503959&pagenumber=6

You caved, dude. Save yourself the time and effort and just admit that the Punisher gets spanked in this thread too. That's all I ask.

Originally posted by Raoul
it's called keeping your head down.

not always going to work, granted, but it does sometimes.

Well there you go, and considering that DD and his team were unable to do that theres a decent chance Cyke wont be able to do either.

You have to bear in mind that not only did the team fail, they failed MISERABLY. When you're trying to track somebody down and that person is watching you while you are having meetings and actually suceeeds in getting detailed info on you that is failing....badly. They only caught him afterwards becuase Punisher helped them fight Nightmare.

Really dont see what the fuss was about. Also when I say prove its not like I mean I want something concrete im just asking for some plan of some idea of what he would do.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
You asked him to close it but to keep it open.... You don't think before you type, do you?

I provided information for real bullet velocities when you brought up that nonsense about mercy bullets, which you claimed you couldn't see, yet the thread still got closed.




1. You caved from your usual position (as always) and agreed with Bada, who was in agreement with the rest of us that Castle would get punked for the majority. The numbers aren't important. You went in ranting about Punisher winning with no mention of this 7/10 X-Men majority you claim to have had all along until Page 6.

2. Here's the damned link for anyone who wants to see:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=503959&pagenumber=6

You caved, dude. Save yourself the time and effort and just admit that the Punisher gets spanked in this thread too. That's all I ask.

Complete waste of time didnt listen to one word I said. facepalm

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Of course he has hes not perfect. Not sure how that proves anything.

Wolverine isn't perfect either?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Er no DD isnt far less skilled than Wolverine is better in some aspects than Wolverine is and like Wolverine he has been able to detect shape shifiters, therefore if anything Wolverine is not a greater tracker than DD by a massive margin.

So he's detected shapeshifters who are at the level of Mystique before? Scans pls? Also, we ALL know how good Wolverine is at tracking, you need to prove that DD is even remotely that good.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Please dont try to dictate logic to me. If anything Wolverine is not a better tracker than DD by a massive number, but somehow you're now trying to tell me that the other four arent going to make DD an even better tracker. Since when did more people looking for somebody become less effective....y'know thats why they were requested in the first place. So yes in these circumstances it is.

Again, what does having other people do in helping you track someone? The extra areas of expertise can only contribute so much. Do it this way, hire 5 expert trackers to track down someone hidden in the woods. I'll go get one trained bloodhound. Let's see who finds the guy first.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Wheres your proof that DD said Wolverine was a much better tracker?

Respect thread. Besides, you claimed that DD was close to as good as Wolverine, you're the one making tons of claims on Punisher's skeeelz. Don't be lazy and post some scans.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They're going to be on him like flies like poop when Punisher can snipe Cyclops from four miles away........and you want me to provide scans for context?

Sooo, Cyclops is gonna allow himself to get sniped from 4 miles away within an urban setting? Cool!

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Actually I think you're right. Its about wether Cyke can hide from being sniped from Pun. If I have to prove that Pun can snipe Cyke he has to prove that Cyke can stop himself from being sniped.

No, because it's a ****ing negative!

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
No, because it's a ****ing negative!

No its fine, stop swearing. Done talking to you.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Sooo, Cyclops is gonna allow himself to get sniped from 4 miles away within an urban setting? Cool!

Correction, reread original stips. This isn't in an urban setting. Still silly to think that Cyke will his ass sniped from any distance away, tho.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Team have to hunt down and kill Pun. Pun has 3 weeks prep and full help from Henry during and after prep.

After 3 weeks prep team have to hunt down and kill Pun. No Cerebero. Let the hate begin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v643/mjolnir117/Yourthreadsucks.jpg

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Wolverine isn't perfect either?


You point?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

So he's detected shapeshifters who are at the level of Mystique before? Scans pls?

He detected Blackheart in the form of a human.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Also, we ALL know how good Wolverine is at tracking, you need to prove that DD is even remotely that good.

I actually provided a scan of of DD tracking down Punisher and Nick Fury enlisted him to find Punisher. Hasn't Punisher detected shape-shifting Skrulls before?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Again, what does having other people do in helping you track someone? The extra areas of expertise can only contribute so much. Do it this way, hire 5 expert trackers to track down someone hidden in the woods. I'll go get one trained bloodhound. Let's see who finds the guy first.

Im sorry but thats not even that good logic for starters Nick Fury isnt a bloodhound but he was able to detect Skrulls before. You dont neccesarily have to have heightned senses to be a good tracker but to be intelligent. Those other members can cover more area and they have ideas of were to find him.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Respect thread. Besides, you claimed that DD was close to as good as Wolverine, you're the one making tons of claims on Punisher's skeeelz. Don't be lazy and post some scans.

I see ive posted a scan you havent posted any and you're telling me im lazy? Lets see this scan please and i'll try and get the other one.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Sooo, Cyclops is gonna allow himself to get sniped from 4 miles away within an urban setting? Cool!

Why on earth would ne be able to do that when DD and team were stalking him and he was observing them with ease?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210



Respect thread. Besides, you claimed that DD was close to as good as Wolverine, you're the one making tons of claims on Punisher's skeeelz. Don't be lazy and post some scans.


http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9838/73733970ep3.jpg

Please tell me you're not refering to this scan.....

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You point?

You mentioned that Wolverine has been ambushed before and that somehow gives Punisher an advantage. Low feats doesn't mean that it's the standard.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He detected Blackheart in the form of a human.

Detecting something isn't a tracking feat. It's a detection feat.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I actually provided a scan of of DD tracking down Punisher and Nick Fury enlisted him to find Punisher. Hasn't Punisher detected shape-shifting Skrulls before?

So did a ton of other ppl, not a high feat tbh. Again, detection feat is not the same as TRACKING down a highly-trained shapeshifter who was known to be highly evasive.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im sorry but thats not even that good logic for starters Nick Fury isnt a bloodhound but he was able to detect Skrulls before. You dont neccesarily have to have heightned senses to be a good tracker but to be intelligent. Those other members can cover more area and they have ideas of were to find him.

You're not getting my point. More people doesn't necessarily increase the odds of detection by a cumulative amount. I'm merely pointing out that your previous assumption of more is better has very little grounds.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I see ive posted a scan you havent posted any and you're telling me im lazy? Lets see this scan please and i'll try and get the other one.

Wow. One scan of a DD doing a narrative. Nice. I had a scan in mind but I can't seem to find it. I'll get back to you as soon as I find the durned thing.


Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Why on earth would ne be able to do that when DD and team were stalking him and he was observing them with ease?

Again, see above.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Please tell me you're not refering to this scan.....

No, I wasn't.

Im bored so im re-bumping this.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210
You mentioned that Wolverine has been ambushed before and that somehow gives Punisher an advantage. Low feats doesn't mean that it's the standard.

Its not a low feat it happens quite often.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Detecting something isn't a tracking feat. It's a detection feat.

So you think Wolverine would have been able to track down Mystique if he didn't have enhaced senses? Enhanced senses are an important part of why they are so good at tracking.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

So did a ton of other ppl, not a high feat tbh. Again, detection feat is not the same as TRACKING down a highly-trained shapeshifter who was known to be highly evasive.

Please explain what the circumstances of them tracking them down where? For the most part Pun evades Jigsaw and Kingpin but I know they have tracked him down by sheer luck and when hes not thinking straight. I know sometimes he allows people to track him down because hes laid a trap for them. For the most part hes not that fussed about being caught by Heroes but when DD tried to take him down for good Pun made it even harder for him. Now hes got three people after him who are going to kill him hes going to step it up.

Nick Fury tracked down Maria Hill and snuck into her hellicarrier. Thats one hell of a feat because SHIELD were actually looking for him and would have made steps to make sure that he couldnt find Hill or sneak into their base.


Originally posted by D_Dude1210

You're not getting my point. More people doesn't necessarily increase the odds of detection by a cumulative amount. I'm merely pointing out that your previous assumption of more is better has very little grounds.


No I understand it perfectly. That does not apply to this case. Again DD brought those heroes in to make finding Punisher easier. DD isn't a moron hes not going to gather files of Punisher and sit down and have an in-depth conversation with other heroes about tracking down Punisher if its not going to have a cumulative effect. DD was pissed and wanted Pun taken down. Oh yeah Black Widow has also tracked down Wolverine while he was on run from SHIELD.

Originally posted by D_Dude1210

Wow. One scan of a DD doing a narrative. Nice. I had a scan in mind but I can't seem to find it. I'll get back to you as soon as I find the durned thing.

I don't think your going to find them either you are probably thinking about Infinite War, not Secret War. Anyway I found these scans ages ago.



http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/4756/daredevil270blackheart1.th.jpg


http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9279/daredevil270blackheart2.th.jpg

Hmm...
Seriously, how will Frank even know X-men are coming for him? After all, they are team which uses image-inducers on regular basis. I do not think "snipe Cyke in head" plan will even work. And if it will, that'd be armoured Colossus, and next thing is, sniper nest is destroyed by optic beam and then Wolverine catches up to him and cuts him in pieces.

And that's a plausible plan for x-men. They executed plans with similar elements before, after all. AND their weaponry and tech is better.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Hmm...
Seriously, how will Frank even know X-men are coming for him? After all, they are team which uses image-inducers on regular basis. I do not think "snipe Cyke in head" plan will even work. And if it will, that'd be armoured Colossus, and next thing is, sniper nest is destroyed by optic beam and then Wolverine catches up to him and cuts him in pieces.

And that's a plausible plan for x-men. They executed plans with similar elements before, after all. AND their weaponry and tech is better.


They have used image unducers before but for the most part they haven't its not a forgone conlusion they will use that tactic but its possible.

Theres a good chance that Punisher and Henry could factor in this possibility and adapt. The only equipment I can seem them using is image inducers and thats no way superior to the tech that Pun has. Henry can easily modify Iron Man tech ( which they have) and Iron Man tech is not inferior to the X-men tech.

hmm, i honestly thought i'd closed this. oh well...

Team ftw, imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
hmm, i honestly thought i'd closed this. oh well...

Team ftw, imo.

Yeah the the team can win, I also think pun can win also. Pun gets a head start and has help from Henry during and after prep.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah the the team can win, I also think pun can win also. Pun gets a head start and has help from Henry during and after prep.

oh, i know. i still think they win, though...

Originally posted by -Pr-
oh, i know. i still think they win, though...

Thats perfectly reasonable.

Team ftw.

I see more trouble for Frank to kill Wolverine that to kill Colossus

Team for the win

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
I see more trouble for Frank to kill Wolverine that to kill Colossus

Doubt it hes down pretty well against Wolverine and thats without Einnis as well.

top.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Team ftw.

Bbboring. Why?

team ftw.. wolverine would track him down from his last public siting via scent...

logan would pull his ninja skill move appearing right behind or in front of pun with claws to inside frank...

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
team ftw.. wolverine would track him down from his last public siting via scent...

If DD and team couldnt track him down. What makes you think Wolverine will?

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

logan would pull his ninja skill move appearing right behind or in front of pun with claws to inside frank...

Likes hes never done against Punisher, sure.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
team ftw.. wolverine would track him down from his last public siting via scent...

that

plus

Cyclops: Master Strategist / Range attacks
Wolerine: Tank (heals) / Scout
Colossus: Tank (too durable) / almost unstoppable for the Punisher

he can take out Cycs but I doubt he has a chance against 2 Tanks, 1 ok then he could take out the other 2 and concentrate on the one left but 2... he will have no time to concentrate on one of them cause the other one will directly help out.

Originally posted by Parmaniac
that

plus

Cyclops: Master Strategist / Range attacks
Wolerine: Tank (heals) / Scout
Colossus: Tank (too durable) / almost unstoppable for the Punisher

he can take out Cycs but I doubt he has a chance against 2 Tanks, 1 ok then he could take out the other 2 and concentrate on the one left but 2... he will have no time to concentrate on one of them cause the other one will directly help out.

Punisher also out smarted people better than Cyke, so that doesnt give them the definite win. Punisher has tech that could potentially kill Wolverine, Collosus will be harder. Collosus doesnt seem that durable to me.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher also out smarted people better than Cyke, so that doesnt give them the definite win. Punisher has tech that could potentially kill Wolverine, Collosus will be harder. Collosus doesnt seem that durable to me.

you could say the same about cyclops, though.

Originally posted by -Pr-
you could say the same about cyclops, though.

It depends actually, examples?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It depends actually, examples?

Norman Osborne

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It depends actually, examples?

Originally posted by Parmaniac
Norman Osborne

that's one.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher also out smarted people better than Cyke, so that doesnt give them the definite win.
-Pr- sez:
you could say the same about cyclops, though.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Punisher has tech that could potentially kill Wolverine, Collosus will be harder. Collosus doesnt seem that durable to me.
He does have weapons that could potentially kill Wolverine, or at least take him out of the fight. Problem is he's got to hit a dodging Wolverine while avoiding attacks from Cyclops and Colossus. It's not very likely.

What does Castle have that can replicate the force of a speeding bullet train, or top-tier bricks? You might say the Satan Claw, which worked on Rhino. Problem there is that Rhino is hardly as durable as Colossus.

Team ftw.

Colossus is VERY durable. he's actually more durable than he is strong. he's survived re-entry and the subsequent crash to a planet's surface. he's taken on shiar security tech. he's taken a sentinel blast without flinching. he's had some impressive showings since his return...

Originally posted by -Pr-
that's one.

Which is what I mean by it depends. Cyclops had a massive team of X-men, Namor and New Mutants to help him beat Norman. Cyclops doesnt have these resources in this thread.

On the other hand Punisher has outsmarted people better than Cyke on his own using normal equipment. I think the team can win but thats not admissable as evidence.

I can think of many examples of Cyclops strategy but alot of them involve him using the X-men not on his own. So far Pun is looking better. In fact according to Remender a tired, sleep deprived Pun is going to outsmart Norman.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol
-Pr- sez:
you could say the same about cyclops, though.

That point has already been adressed.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

He does have weapons that could potentially kill Wolverine, or at least take him out of the fight. Problem is he's got to hit a dodging Wolverine while avoiding attacks from Cyclops and Colossus. It's not very likely.


Its not a forgone conlusion that he can hit Wolverine, but this is why ive given him 3 weeks prep and help from Henry during and after prep. With these stipulations he has a decent chance of pulling it off and the team have a decent chance of winning.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
What does Castle have that can replicate the force of a speeding bullet train, or top-tier bricks? You might say the Satan Claw, which worked on Rhino. Problem there is that Rhino is hardly as durable as Colossus.

Team ftw.

Titanuim mans glove. Blacklashs whip ( possibly). Pun can get hold of nukes.



Originally posted by -Pr-
Colossus is VERY durable. he's actually more durable than he is strong. he's survived re-entry and the subsequent crash to a planet's surface. he's taken on shiar security tech. he's taken a sentinel blast without flinching. he's had some impressive showings since his return...

Yes I know hes very durable. However Collosus got taken out by a random giant robot and it seems he was having some trouble fighting Gargan Venom.

I dont put Collosus up there with Hercules and Thing. Hes very durable but Pun has tech that could potentially take out Iron Man.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Which is what I mean by it depends. Cyclops had a massive team of X-men, Namor and New Mutants to help him beat Norman. Cyclops doesnt have these resources in this thread.

On the other hand Punisher has outsmarted people better than Cyke on his own using normal equipment. I think the team can win but thats not admissable as evidence.

I can think of many examples of Cyclops strategy but alot of them involve him using the X-men not on his own. So far Pun is looking better. In fact according to Remender a tired, sleep deprived Pun is going to outsmart Norman.

i disagree. cyclops doesn't need the x-men to come up with the plans he comes up with. they're just the tools he uses to implement his plans.

it comes down to one question: do you believe punisher is a better strategist than cyclops?



you honestly think the thing is more durable than colossus?

we don't know how strong that robot was, so it doesn't serve to show good or bad durability, imo.

and colossus wasn't having trouble. gargan didn't hurt him, and colossus took him down easily enough, imo.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i disagree. cyclops doesn't need the x-men to come up with the plans he comes up with. they're just the tools he uses to implement his plans.


He does in the example you gave because in that example he needed help from Emma, Mirage etc. Are you telling me that Cyclops could have beaten Norman with just Wolverine and Collosus?


Originally posted by -Pr-
it comes down to one question: do you believe punisher is a better strategist than cyclops?

Well I tell you what how about you answer my question? Please give me examples of Cyclops outsmarting people smarter than Punisher using the resources used in this thread. Please dont tell me I dont read enough Xmen. Ive read about 5 years worth of Uncanny X-men, X-men series and I have some of X-men Utopia.

I will answer the question however. Clearly Pun is better in some areas than Cyke and vice versa. When it comes to inflitration and assasination hes clearly better, Cyke is a better team leader


Originally posted by -Pr-

you honestly think the thing is more durable than colossus?

What I said really was that I think Thing is overall a better brick.

Originally posted by -Pr-

we don't know how strong that robot was, so it doesn't serve to show good or bad durability, imo.

and colossus wasn't having trouble. gargan didn't hurt him, and colossus took him down easily enough, imo.

To be quite honest with you Gargan has shown that he can aruably give Collsus a decent fight and Venom Gargan is not that impressive.

Usually getting taken out by random beings isn't as impressive as been taken out by established characters but thats a reasonable point.

Anyway Pun has tech that can potentially take out Iron Man.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
He does in the example you gave because in that example he needed help from Emma, Mirage etc. Are you telling me that Cyclops could have beaten Norman with just Wolverine and Collosus?

he didn't need their help to come up with the plan. coming up with a strategy and implementing it are two different things.



cyclops (by himself) has more than once taken on teams of x-men and beaten them by himself with no prep and no other resources. he did fool norman, regardless of whether he needed help to implement his plan.



i can agree on those points.



i disagree.



i honestly don't agree. at no point in the fight did it look like, to me, that colossus was having trouble, and when he wanted to end it, he did it quite easily.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not a forgone conlusion that he can hit Wolverine, but this is why ive given him 3 weeks prep and help from Henry during and after prep. With these stipulations he has a decent chance of pulling it off and the team have a decent chance of winning.

It's possible for Punisher to shoot Wolverine, but it's still going to take some time, focus, and effort to actually do it... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Titanuim mans glove. Blacklashs whip ( possibly). Pun can get hold of nukes.

Titanium Man himself was not as strong or as durable as Colossus is now. If Castle tried going toe-to-toe with Colossus, he'd wind up a red stain on the battlefield, even with that glove. Blacklash's whip won't do him much better.... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.

"Pun can get a hold of nukes." ? What... is he gonna kill himself in order to kill the X-Men now? That's not a win for him even if does manage to kill all of them that way.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes I know hes very durable. However Collosus got taken out by a random giant robot and it seems he was having some trouble fighting Gargan Venom.

I dont put Collosus up there with Hercules and Thing. Hes very durable but Pun has tech that could potentially take out Iron Man.

Just because it was a random giant robot doesn't mean that it was just another cannon-fodder robot. Taking out Colossus as one of its few feats speaks a good deal of that robot's badassery. What real trouble did Colossus have against Gargan?

Colossus matched Thing's strength as a teenager. He was the only brick to have been intact when he died alongside Hulk and Thing.

You don't know for a fact that Punisher's new weapons could take out Iron Man, but it's a null point when you consider that Colossus is much more durable than Iron Man.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
It's possible for Punisher to shoot Wolverine, but it's still going to take some time, focus, and effort to actually do it... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.

I agree but that doesn't mean its a foregone conlusion the team win. Thats why Pun has 3 weeks prep and help during and after prep. Hes manged to hold his own against Wolverine on his own without Einnis and outsmarted people better than Cyke with no prep. Adding the 3 weeks prep and help from Henry gives him a decent chance but its no foregone conclusion he wins or loses.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Titanium Man himself was not as strong or as durable as Colossus is now. If Castle tried going toe-to-toe with Colossus, he'd wind up a red stain on the battlefield, even with that glove.

Im talking about the firepower from the blaster.


Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Blacklash's whip won't do him much better.... and he's still got two other X-Men to defend against.

Yes that could happen buts that as an example of a situation which may or may not happen. Im just giving you examples of tech that could potenially take out Collosus.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

"Pun can get a hold of nukes." ? What... is he gonna kill himself in order to kill the X-Men now? That's not a win for him even if does manage to kill all of them that way.

Im giving an example of things that could take out Collosus potentially. Obvoulsy the hard part is making up a plan

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Just because it was a random giant robot doesn't mean that it was just another cannon-fodder robot. Taking out Colossus as one of its few feats speaks a good deal of that robot's badassery. What real trouble did Colossus have against Gargan?

I suspect you have used the fact that Blade has faced no-name villains as an example of how crap Blade is. However I agree that this point of view is valid.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Colossus matched Thing's strength as a teenager. He was the only brick to have been intact when he died alongside Hulk and Thing.

It also looked like Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight eg Collosus had to resort to picking up some stone to take out Gargan. Im not saying that Gargaon would beat him but it seemed that Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight and Gargan aint all that.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You don't know for a fact that Punisher's new weapons could take out Iron Man, but it's a null point when you consider that Colossus is much more durable than Iron Man.

Thats why I said potentially thats the reason why Titanuim man had the gloves.

That means it would be even harder to take out Collosus but it could be still done. Collosus maybe more durable than Iron Man but im pretty sure Iron Man has comparable durability feats.

Theres also a fairly decent chance that Henry can modify the weapons hes taken a fuel cell in Titanuims glove and used it on a high-tech skateboard.

He also can shrink Collosus, making him weaker.

Originally posted by -Pr-
he didn't need their help to come up with the plan. coming up with a strategy and implementing it are two different things.


Geez Pr the point is obvoulsy that he couldn't have implemented it without there help.

Originally posted by -Pr-

cyclops (by himself) has more than once taken on teams of x-men and beaten them by himself with no prep and no other resources.

Thats impressive but bear in mind that the X-men are practically family and that gives Cyke an advantage that other people wouldn't.

I know of the danger room example I dont know of the others you are mentioning they may have had circumstances to it.

Originally posted by -Pr-

he did fool norman, regardless of whether he needed help to implement his plan.

Yeah but the point is its not a good example of beating somebody smarter than Pun because he would not be able to do this with the stipluations in this thread. According to Remender what Punisher is going to do is more impressive.


Originally posted by -Pr-

i can agree on those points.

Which gives Pun an advantage in this thread.

Originally posted by -Pr-

i disagree.

I suspect a case could be made for either brick so im not sure if its worth getting into it.


Originally posted by -Pr-

i honestly don't agree. at no point in the fight did it look like, to me, that colossus was having trouble, and when he wanted to end it, he did it quite easily.

I think they have only fought twice. On one ocassion Collosus resorted to picking up some stone and hitting Venom with it. It implies that Collosus's fists were not strong enough to get the job done and had to resort to external means (im not saying that Collosus couldn't KO him via fists just that it should be noted he had to resort to something else). If we look at the fight which they had in Utopia they looked evenly matched Collosus was having to make effort to hold off Venom. You can't say that either side looked superior but if you look at both fights it implies that Venom could give Collosus a decent fight. I think Collosus would win by the way.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I agree but that doesn't mean its a foregone conlusion the team win. Thats why Pun has 3 weeks prep and help during and after prep. Hes manged to hold his own against Wolverine on his own without Einnis and outsmarted people better than Cyke with no prep. Adding the 3 weeks prep and help from Henry gives him a decent chance but its no foregone conclusion he wins or loses.
And Cyke and Wolverine have outsmarted people strategically better and smarter than Castle... Bringing up the fact that Castle's eluded Doom and Captain America is pointless unless you can demonstrate how it will come into play here.

He's got help, but he's still alone on the battlefield. The best Henry could do is give him advice and be his lookout. He's got loads more new guns, but he's still only got two hands. That's still not nearly enough to fend off 3 attackers from three different sides, especially not when considering their abilities.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im talking about the firepower from the blaster.

Yes that could happen buts that as an example of a situation which may or may not happen. Im just giving you examples of tech that could potenially take out Collosus.

Thats why I said potentially thats the reason why Titanuim man had the gloves. That means it would be even harder to take out Collosus but it could be still done. Collosus maybe more durable than Iron Man but im pretty sure Iron Man has comparable durability feats. Theres also a fairly decent chance that Henry can modify the weapons hes taken a fuel cell in Titanuims glove and used it on a high-tech skateboard.

He also can shrink Collosus, making him weaker.
Both Blacklash's whip and Titanium Man's blasters have been shown to be effective against Iron Man back in the day, but not against someone with Colossus' durability. I really don't think you could prove they'd be much more than an annoyance to Colossus.

Nukes might kill everyone on the battlefield, with the likely exception of Colossus... and possibly Wolverine.

It's not a viable tactic for Castle any which way you look at it.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Im giving an example of things that could take out Collosus potentially. Obvoulsy the hard part is making up a plan
That's actually my biggest issue with many of your arguments though, Zone. Much like a Batman thread, you don't really have a solid idea how he'd pull through, except that "he'll find a way." His new weapons are capable of incapacitating or even killing both Wolverine and Cyclops. Colossus? VERY unlikely.

For the sake of argument, even if he did have weapons that could hurt Colossus, there's no real plausible way he could defend against all three of them long enough to kill them before they kill him.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I suspect you have used the fact that Blade has faced no-name villains as an example of how crap Blade is. However I agree that this point of view is valid.
If I did, I don't remember... but that's a whole new debate there. For the record, I don't think Blade sucks. With that said, I simply don't think he's as good as a few others or powerful enough to defeat certain characters decisively (if at all).
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It also looked like Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight eg Collosus had to resort to picking up some stone to take out Gargan. Im not saying that Gargaon would beat him but it seemed that Gargan could give Collosus a decent fight and Gargan aint all that.

Doesn't mean much. That's like saying you couldn't say for certain who'd win a fight between a powerful heavyweight boxer like Evander Holyfield and a junior middleweight like Terry Norris, simply because Holyfield chose to end it with a bar stool instead of his fists. Of course the bigger, stronger Holyfield would win against the marginally quicker Norris. Same thing here with Colossus and Venom, regardless if it's either Brock, Parker, or Gargan joined with the symbiote.

Shrinking Colossus wouldn't stop him. He would move slower because of his shortened strides, but would still be just as durable as he is in his normal state. I was pretty sure Pym Particles allow the user to retain his strength at his normal size even when shrunk... but even if it's diminished, Colossus would still have the strength to kill Castle. After all, a shrunken Rhino was able to temporarily cripple Deadpool.

A shrunken Colossus busted both the front doors to the X-Mansion with one punch.

Also, I've noticed that Venom can increase his size(and apparently his strength) when he fights, but he only seems to do it against Colossus. As for the fight when Colossus hit him with the rock, it seems like Colossus couldn't get enough strength behind a punch from his current position.(On his back, holding Venom off with one hand), so he popped him with a rock. If he could ever get a solid hit on Venom, or not get his tongue wrapped around him every second, he could easily take Venom down.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Geez Pr the point is obvoulsy that he couldn't have implemented it without there help.

that doesn't cheapen the strategy at all, though.



twice he's beaten them when they were trying to kill him, and once, he was made to think that he should kill them all. in all 3 cases he was victorious.



cyclops makes up plans on the fly. he's actually better at strategising during fights than he is before them. imo, its as likely that he could outsmart frank as it is the other way around.



not really, imo. scott still has a team to work with, and is still clever on his own.



i don't think that's what it indicates at all. i don't think he had to resort to something else. at no point in the fight did it look like he was in trouble, imo.



a decent fight? maybe. but ever beat him given colossus's vast strength and durability advantage? not really. the man is cl100 after all, and that's just his strength. his durability is higher.

Originally posted by -Pr-


cyclops makes up plans on the fly. he's actually better at strategising during fights than he is before them. imo, its as likely that he could outsmart frank as it is the other way around.

My man. Frank finally gets some love.

I haven't responded to the other points because im dodging I just feel we could be here for ages comparing feats were an argument could made for either side.

Its unclear wether Pun is going to take on Dark Avengers and Hammer but he defintely will be taking on Daken and Hammer. IMO I think its possibly more impressive than what Cyclops has done since hes going to be sleep deprived and tired. As far as I know Daken has actually taken on the whole X-men.

Also Henry has been shown to be quite good on the fly as well. Hes saved Franks arse from Mr Hyde when he was about to be splattered and it was his idea to wage a PR campaign against Norman. That satellite of his can also see energy signatures which were capable of indicating Leethas mind control over Spiderman.

Originally posted by -Pr-



not really, imo. scott still has a team to work with, and is still clever on his own.


Anyway I guess what im getting at is at both sides have advantages and disadvantages


Originally posted by -Pr-
i don't think that's what it indicates at all. i don't think he had to resort to something else. at no point in the fight did it look like he was in trouble, imo.

Well yyyeah. I agree but I think im not really explaining my self properly, but I think thats my fault really.

Originally posted by -Pr-

a decent fight? maybe. but ever beat him given colossus's vast strength and durability advantage? not really. the man is cl100 after all, and that's just his strength. his durability is higher.

Yes I would agree with that as well, boring.

All I can say is that I think some of his weapons can potentailly take out Iron Man so imo I think they could take out Collosus with more difficulty.

I also know that some of his weapons were capable of taking out Thunderball with ease. Bare in mind its been stated that Thunderball can take shots from Thor, ive also seen one of the wrecking crew take a blow from a pissed off Thor and get right up cracking jokes. Thunderball isn't as durable as Collosus but anything that can KO him easily isn't to be sniffed at, those guys are quite tough.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
My man. Frank finally gets some love.

I haven't responded to the other points because im dodging I just feel we could be here for ages comparing feats were an argument could made for either side.

Its unclear wether Pun is going to take on Dark Avengers and Hammer but he defintely will be taking on Daken and Hammer. IMO I think its possibly more impressive than what Cyclops has done since hes going to be sleep deprived and tired. As far as I know Daken has actually taken on the whole X-men.

Also Henry has been shown to be quite good on the fly as well. Hes saved Franks arse from Mr Hyde when he was about to be splattered and it was his idea to wage a PR campaign against Norman. That satellite of his can also see energy signatures which were capable of indicating Leethas mind control over Spiderman.




Anyway I guess what im getting at is at both sides have advantages and disadvantages




Well yyyeah. I agree but I think im not really explaining my self properly, but I think thats my fault really.



Yes I would agree with that as well, boring.

All I can say is that I think some of his weapons can potentailly take out Iron Man so imo I think they could take out Collosus with more difficulty.

I also know that some of his weapons were capable of taking out Thunderball with ease. Bare in mind its been stated that Thunderball can take shots from Thor, ive also seen one of the wrecking crew take a blow from a pissed off Thor and get right up cracking jokes. Thunderball isn't as durable as Collosus but anything that can KO him easily isn't to be sniffed at, those guys are quite tough.

so basically agree to disagree?

Originally posted by -Pr-
so basically agree to disagree?


Huh? I thought we more or less agreed on alot of stuff. What are we disagreeing on?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Huh? I thought we more or less agreed on alot of stuff. What are we disagreeing on?

i honestly don't know

Originally posted by -Pr-
i honestly don't know

facepalm Well at any right im giving the team 6/10. I think 7/10 is reasonable but I think anything above is going too far. What odds do you give the team?

around the same. his hardest job, imo, is putting down colossus, but if he does, as you say, have a gun that can put down iron man, he should do fine.

Originally posted by -Pr-
around the same. his hardest job, imo, is putting down colossus, but if he does, as you say, have a gun that can put down iron man, he should do fine.

So 6/10?

Yeah I agree for me the winning factor the team is Collosus. He can put him down but it won't be easy.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
So 6/10?

Yeah I agree for me the winning factor the team is Collosus. He can put him down but it won't be easy.

6 or 7, i dunno which, if frank has the arsenal you're saying he does.

what can put colossus down that Frank has?

Satan claw hell no, that ice gun hell no hyde got out of it. I have yet to see a single weapon of Punisher take out some one of Colossus durability

Originally posted by -Pr-
6 or 7, i dunno which, if frank has the arsenal you're saying he does.

Yup.

Please love to hear what part of Punisher arsenal could take colossus out.