Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Well?

In what sort of terms?

Originally posted by Raoul
In what sort of terms? Energy output and ferocity of attacks.

In the Hulk annual Hulk was portrayed as the stronger of the two while Thor was definitely the more powerful.

Pure energy output? Probably Norrin.

Ferocity? Thor, all the way.

Originally posted by Raoul
Pure energy output? Probably Norrin.

Ferocity? Thor, all the way. Combine the two then. Do you give it to Thor?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Combine the two then. Do you give it to Thor?

Most times, yes, i'd go with Thor.

They're two very different characters. I think it's a false distinction. They're too similar in my book. Surfer may be more versatile, and Thor may be a fiercer fighter. But in terms of power, they're around the same platitude.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
They're two very different characters. I think it's a false distinction. They're too similar in my book. Surfer may be more versatile, and Thor may be a fiercer fighter. But in terms of power, they're around the same platitude. How so?

Thor totally annihilated him when they went all out in blood and thunder.


What does the Surfer have that can compete with the godblast?

I sense you had an answer in mind when you opened this thread...........dur

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I sense you had an answer in mind when you opened this thread...........dur Who doesn't?

Who creates a thread with knowledge of both characters without rendering a decision?


Will you answer my question? Does the Surfer have anything in his arsenal that competes with the godblast?

Hasn't Surfer been upgraded since B&T?

yes, the cosmic power blast.. they both have access to near limitless power and i would say they are near equal difference is in how they apply it.

it's like handing both guys, Sticks/ branches and rope and they each make something different using the items at hand.

SS would make a bow and arrow and thor would make a spear or club and tie it to his waist.

Surfer's faster, that's not even arguable. And Surfer's physically overpowered the Hulk on more than one occasion, which is something Thor doesn't do.

And he, like Thor's godblast, packs enough power to casually tear huge holes in reality by simply powering up.

No PIS or jobbing going on, both fighting to their full abilities...Surfer overpowers Thor, IMO.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Hasn't Surfer been upgraded since B&T? Sort of. He destroyed a planet, but hasn't done anything to show a superiority to Thor since annihilation.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer's faster, that's not even arguable. And Surfer's physically overpowered the Hulk on more than one occasion, which is something Thor doesn't do.

And he, like Thor's godblast, packs enough power to casually tear huge holes in reality by simply powering up.

No PIS or jobbing going on, both fighting to their full abilities...Surfer overpowers Thor, IMO. This isn't a battle. Eny, why the abc logic here? Thor has utterly decimated the Surfer and then Surfer and a friend. He is a more skilled opponent and lives for battle while the Surfer avoids it at all costs.

What has the Surfer done to compare to the godblast?

Thor.

I wont be surprised if most say Surfer tho.

Originally posted by quanchi112
This isn't a battle. Eny, why the abc logic here?
Because Surfer doesn't have the pure lifting feats. He does, however, have multiple occasions of him physically overpowering or stalemating Class 100+ level opponents in Thor's class and above.

That's why the ABC comparison.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor has utterly decimated the Surfer and then Surfer and a friend.
I'm aware.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What has the Surfer done to compare to the godblast?
I told you. Godblast's most impressive feat was probably tearing reality open. Surfer has done that, as well.

I've seen Thor show more overall power than SS. I'm sure Goober can post some SS feats though.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Because Surfer doesn't have the pure lifting feats. He does, however, have multiple occasions of him physically overpowering or stalemating Class 100+ level opponents in Thor's class and above.

That's why the ABC comparison.


I'm aware.


I told you. Godblast's most impressive feat was probably tearing reality open. Surfer has done that, as well. That has to do with overall strength not power.

Such as?

Look at their fights against top end guys- compare their fights against the likes of Thanos, it's clear to see who was packing the heat, and who was getting burned.

Hmmm......for now no comment.

If there were a blank "canvas" and they were just trying to create as much destruction as possible, I think I'd side with Thor.

Originally posted by Juntai
Look at their fights against top end guys- compare their fights against the likes of Thanos, it's clear to see who was packing the heat, and who was getting burned. Or Galactus.

However, I would like to add that these two are compared way too often. High profile, both in Marvel, and both similar power level. But they're starkly different characters. I always hate when people end up diminishing one to prop up the other, which happens all the time.

Also, yeah, Thor has FAR better showings against Thanos, who is a great benchmark for durability.

Let me just say that Using thanos as a benchmark is an extemely faulty since their fights against him have happened under extremely different circumstances. Thor was heavily amped in BOTH of the fights he has had against thanos in which he performed well. A regular thor has fought thanos with the assitance of thing and gotten thrashed. (i blieve he was 3shotted or something like that)

Originally posted by Naija boy
A regular thor has fought thanos with the assitance of thing and gotten thrashed. (i blieve he was 3shotted or something like that)
^ This.

When Thor's fought a Thanos clone, he did well. Once. The other Thanos clone he fought? Mjolnir bounced off his back like Thor didn't even throw it.

Originally posted by Digi
However, I would like to add that these two are compared way too often. High profile, both in Marvel, and both similar power level. But they're starkly different characters. I always hate when people end up diminishing one to prop up the other, which happens all the time.

Also, yeah, Thor has FAR better showings against Thanos, who is a great benchmark for durability. Digi, Thor utterly annihilated the Surfer. He crushed the Surfer on his own and then later demoralized him alongside warlock. They both went running for the hills.

I don't think a fight would always end in such a decisive manner, but let's look at the facts here. Thor has done better against Galactus, Thanos, etc. and when you couple that with his blood and thunder showing I think the case for Thor is a helluva lot more solid than a case for the Surfer.

Originally posted by Enyalus
^ This.

When Thor's fought a Thanos clone, he did well. Once. The other Thanos clone he fought? Mjolnir bounced off his back like Thor didn't even throw it. Thor was never beaten with an inch of his life as quickly as the Surfer was by Thanos. I don't think either can beat Thanos, but Thor matches up a lot better against him than the Surfer.

what were the circumstances under that encounter?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor was never beaten with an inch of his life as quickly as the Surfer was by Thanos. I don't think either can beat Thanos, but Thor matches up a lot better against him than the Surfer.
Thanos had Thor on his hands and knees with Mjolnir out of his grasp, with three eyebeam blasts IIRC. First-version Thanos.

Yeah. Surfer's gotten his ass kicked by Thanos before. 8 punches. From an upgraded version of Thanos. 'Bout equal, if you ask me.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Thanos had Thor on his hands and knees with Mjolnir out of his grasp, with three eyebeam blasts IIRC. First-version Thanos.

Yeah. Surfer's gotten his ass kicked by Thanos before. 8 punches. From an upgraded version of Thanos. 'Bout equal, if you ask me.

QFT

Even in the IG Saga, Thor fared better than everyone there, had Thanos layed out flat like a flash KO, so much that Dr Doom almost ran over and wrestled the glove of his hand after hanging back the whole time. Thanos with the power gem no less.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Thanos had Thor on his hands and knees with Mjolnir out of his grasp, with three eyebeam blasts IIRC. First-version Thanos.

Yeah. Surfer's gotten his ass kicked by Thanos before. 8 punches. From an upgraded version of Thanos. 'Bout equal, if you ask me. Ok, but that isn't anywhere near as badly as he beat the Surfer into submission.

Originally posted by Juntai
Even in the IG Saga, Thor fared better than everyone there, had Thanos layed out flat like a flash KO, so much that Dr Doom almost ran over and wrestled the glove of his hand after hanging back the whole time. Thanos with the power gem no less.
That was Eric Masterson, and Thanos was holding back. Doesn't really count.

Originally posted by Enyalus
That was Eric Masterson, and Thanos was holding back. Doesn't really count. Would you say Masterson Thor is greater or less than real Thor?

the fact that surfer holds back a lot more than thor kinda makes it inconclusive.

by feats, thor wins (i guess), but there are things surfer can do that thor can't.

Originally posted by Juntai
Would you say Masterson Thor is greater or less than real Thor?
Less.

The masterson feat really shouldnt be relevant. When thanos was fighting the heroes he was holding back immensely,so much so that even the likes of wolverine were able to cut him , and even drax and hulk were able to knock hiim on his ass.

he wanted to put on a show for death. in the surfer issue of the fight, he killed all of the heroes (terraxia hit spider-man upside the head and pulled iron man's head off, thanos got the rest)

Originally posted by quanchi112
This isn't a battle. Eny, why the abc logic here? Thor has utterly decimated the Surfer and then Surfer and a friend. He is a more skilled opponent and lives for battle while the Surfer avoids it at all costs.

What has the Surfer done to compare to the godblast?
What makes you say that Surfer avoids battle at all cost? I mean sure he USED to, but that was before he became Galactus's herald again.

Thor

This could go either way, IMO.

i give it to SS

I'd go with Thor in a fight.

As far as just pure power goes the pair can channel nearly unlimited amounts of energies. It's too close to say anything definite.

Isn't current Thor Odinpowered? At skyfather level? Whereas Surfer's upgrade is at best ambiguous?

I hate to say it, but I'm leaning toward Thor on this one.

Originally posted by Mindship
Isn't current Thor Odinpowered? At skyfather level? Whereas Surfer's upgrade is at best ambiguous?

I hate to say it, but I'm leaning toward Thor on this one.

Thor's back to classic levels. It seems like the 60 sec rule on earth is gone, but if Mjolnir breaks Thor dies. That has no standing on this measure-up though.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
the fact that surfer holds back a lot more than thor kinda makes it inconclusive.

by feats, thor wins (i guess), but there are things surfer can do that thor can't. Which makes Surfer more versatile not more powerful.Originally posted by darthgoober
What makes you say that Surfer avoids battle at all cost? I mean sure he USED to, but that was before he became Galactus's herald again. It's in his mindset. I didn't mean anyone take me literally on that comment, but Thor really wants to fight you while the Surfer would avoid it if he can.


Surfer isn't a Morg type herald and looks for ways to satiate his master with the least amount of bloodshed and conflict. Skaar kind of screwed that up while turning Galactus into an old power addict.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Thor's back to classic levels. Well...that certainly puts the Rulk encounter in perspective.

It seems like the 60 sec rule on earth is gone, but if Mjolnir breaks Thor dies. That has no standing on this measure-up though.

If this is the case...then I don't know. The only real difference I can see at this point then is that Thor has the heart of a warrior, whereas Surfer still pretty much has the heart of a pacifist. Even if their power is equal, attitude would seem to give the edge to Thor in a fight. But really, it could probably go either way, given the point of any story they'd be fighting in.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's in his mindset. I didn't mean anyone take me literally on that comment, but Thor really wants to fight you while the Surfer would avoid it if he can.


Surfer isn't a Morg type herald and looks for ways to satiate his master with the least amount of bloodshed and conflict. Skaar kind of screwed that up while turning Galactus into an old power addict.
But it's not his mindset anymore. He doesn't seek out needless battle but he's more than willing to put the smackdown when a fight presents itself. That's no different than Thor. Thor does get angrier most of the time, but Surfer keeping a cool head in no way makes him a pacifist.

Surfer's more than willing to offer up planets populace to Galactus, he just tries to give them a chance to leave if it's possible. If not... well that's their problem and he's ready to take out any of them that try to impede Galactus in any way. Just see his fight with Nova for an example.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But it's not his mindset anymore. He doesn't seek out needless battle but he's more than willing to put the smackdown when a fight presents itself. That's no different than Thor. Thor does get angrier most of the time, but Surfer keeping a cool head in no way makes him a pacifist.

Surfer's more than willing to offer up planets populace to Galactus, he just tries to give them a chance to leave if it's possible. If not... well that's their problem and he's ready to take out any of them that try to impede Galactus in any way. Just see his fight with Nova for an example. I don't think his mindset has changed all that much. I mean it has changed slightly, but like you agreed on he still likes to avoid conflict. He fought with Skaar while attempting to change his mind. He ended up getting placed into submission because he didn't put his enemy down. He thought separating the old power would be enough and was going to return with Galactus which made him vulnerable to an obedience disk.

Surfer helped Nova in the end and got to a distance outside his master's presence to speak with him while not seriously injuring him.

Surfer's still a pacifist and still doesn't put down his enemies like Skaar. Let's see how he fares against BrB.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't think his mindset has changed all that much. I mean it has changed slightly, but like you agreed on he still likes to avoid conflict. He fought with Skaar while attempting to change his mind. He ended up getting placed into submission because he didn't put his enemy down. He thought separating the old power would be enough and was going to return with Galactus which made him vulnerable to an obedience disk.

Surfer helped Nova in the end and got to a distance outside his master's presence to speak with him while not seriously injuring him.

Surfer's still a pacifist and still doesn't put down his enemies like Skaar. Let's see how he fares against BrB.
That's no different than ANY hero. Is Captain America a pacifist? Heroes try to talk people down when they think there's a chance of it working, that's just what heroes do. They only jump right into conflict when they know there's no other alternative or when they have history with the person they're fighting.

Even before Annihilation, you can look to things like his fight with Cable(who was pleading for peace with the Surfer I believe) or this little encounter...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4460/42697260.th.jpghttp://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2343/78570377.th.jpg

...to see that Surfer's no tree hugger when the shit hits the fan.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But it's not his mindset anymore. Would this be a fairer statement then: at heart Thor is more of a warrior than Surfer? Ie, he is a Warrior Born, whereas Norrin is a Warrior Made.

It's a tough call for me. Basically, I'm still inclined to say that Mjolnir, ie, the hammer itself, is more powerful than Surfer's power cosmic. But Thor needs Mjolnir much, much more than the Surfer needs his board. This puts Thor at a tremendous tactical disadvantage which the Surfer can - and has - exploited in the past to good effect.

Originally posted by Mindship
Would this be a fairer statement then: at heart Thor is more of a warrior than Surfer? Ie, he is a Warrior Born, whereas Norrin is a Warrior Made.

It's a tough call for me. Basically, I'm still inclined to say that Mjolnir, ie, the hammer itself, is more powerful than Surfer's power cosmic. But Thor needs Mjolnir much, much more than the Surfer needs his board. This puts Thor at a tremendous tactical disadvantage which the Surfer can - and has - exploited in the past to good effect.
Oh yeah I'm not really trying to say that Surfer fights with the same passion that Thor does or anything like that, I was just pointing out that Surfer mentality isn't what it once was. Tbh, the effect of Surfer's aversion to violence has always been grossly exaggerated on the forum. To me one of the biggest appeals of the Surfer has been that he WANTS to be a pacifist and live in peace, but the universe just won't let him. He gets dragged in kicking and screaming, but once the options for a peaceful resolution are taken away he almost never waste time cleaning house.

I think I know why you think that(Surfer's comment in their first fight) but I disagree. Check this out(it's something I've been wanting to get your opinion on anyway since you're a big fan of both characters)...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_34.jpg

Surfer says that the magic of Thor's mallet is mightier than his cosmic force, he doesn't say that Thor's hammer is more powerful than his Power Cosmic. Pretty much every time I've seen Surfer talking about cosmic force, it was about an energy blast like this...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1979_001_04.jpg

Now if we look on the page before Surfer's statement about Thor's hammer...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_33.jpg

... we see Surfer trying unsuccessfully to keep Thor's hammer away with energy blasts. So it seems to me that Surfer wasn't saying that Thor's hammer had more power than he, he was saying that whatever enchantment(which we know to be Odin's) that makes Thor's hammer return to his hand should be too powerful for Surfer's energies to overcome like they did at the end. I can totally understand people interpreting it differently, but it seems to fit better IMO. What do you think?

Goob, it might be that Mjolnir is simply a better conduit for channelling greater parts of the unlimited energy source at a time.

Both have an edge on their own in battles. Thor has much experience and the proper attitude, but Surfer's power cosmic just seems easier to use, you know? It just seems that firing off energy blasts and all that jazz is so much simpler and handier when it comes straight out of your hands.

In this scenario I imagine that they are both trying to unload on a training dummy or something. I would give Thor the edge because of a couple of things. First barring Godblast, none of Thor's attack require anything of him other than to direct Mjolnir. Second I believe that Mjolnir is simply able to put out more than Norrin.

Originally posted by darthgoober
To me one of the biggest appeals of the Surfer has been that he WANTS to be a pacifist and live in peace, but the universe just won't let him. That, and that he flies standing up.

Funny. The scan below, with the Surfer opening the space capsule: is that from the same issue where the Surfer encounters yeti, which then proceed to grab and toss Surfer around by the head? You just don't get more pacifisty than that. But I imagine now he wouldn't be so passive.

I think I know why you think that(Surfer's comment in their first fight) but I disagree. Check this out(it's something I've been wanting to get your opinion on anyway since you're a big fan of both characters)...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_34.jpg

Surfer says that the magic of Thor's mallet is mightier than his cosmic force, he doesn't say that Thor's hammer is more powerful than his Power Cosmic. Pretty much every time I've seen Surfer talking about cosmic force, it was about an energy blast like this...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1979_001_04.jpg

Now if we look on the page before Surfer's statement about Thor's hammer...

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/FM_1980_004_33.jpg

... we see Surfer trying unsuccessfully to keep Thor's hammer away with energy blasts. So it seems to me that Surfer wasn't saying that Thor's hammer had more power than he, he was saying that whatever enchantment(which we know to be Odin's) that makes Thor's hammer return to his hand should be too powerful for Surfer's energies to overcome like they did at the end. I can totally understand people interpreting it differently, but it seems to fit better IMO. What do you think? I think I see what you're saying: you're weighing specifics (ie, a cosmic field vs hammer-return enchantment, in which case the latter is more powerful) against a general overview (Power Cosmic output vs Mjolnir output, in which case they are about equal). Is that right? I had never really thought about it that way, in which case you may have a point but that also might be splitting hairs.

I suppose I'm trying to give Mjolnir its due, ie, it is (arguably) the most powerful Asgardian artifact going. If it is able to generate more sheer wattage, the significant drawback is that it is, in fact, an artifact requiring a wielder. In a sense, Thor is the "weak link" in the Thor-Mjolnir dyad, which for me nicely balances out the fact that the Surfer may not (???) be able to generate quite the same level of brute force, but on the other hand, Surfer is a self-contained power unit with no such tactical weakness.

(I'm also thinking of when Thor repulsed Galactus: a weakened one, true, and I still don't like that he did it; but was the Surfer ever capable of such a feat? I'm not sure, eg, if channeling Crunch energies would be the same as generating such energies).

Originally posted by Mindship
In a sense, Thor is the "weak link" in the Thor-Mjolnir dyad, which for me nicely balances out the fact that the Surfer may not (???) be able to generate quite the same level of brute force, but on the other hand, Surfer is a self-contained power unit with no such tactical weakness.

This is practically the essence of Thor vs Surfer and I agree 100%.

Thor's dependency on Mjolnir does not extend to fights versus "true evil" in which case he can call upon Durok-Dropper-ish moves. But Surfer is another hero, something which might put Thor at a disadvantage. Thor would probably display a level of mercy which to him, only extends to other heroes. The same level of mercy that Surfer extends to everybody.

But before we get carried away, Thor often does his best to avoid combat. He's used hypnosis with Mjolnir even

I think Surfer is the more powerful of the two, but his passive characterization keeps him from using his full potential. Thor, on the other hand, is more prone to bring the hammer down (pun not intended) on his opponents and will have the more spectacular battle feats. Surfer only resorts to force when all other options have been exhausted, and when he does it's usually the endgame in a situation. Versatility is a near wash in the energy absorption/manipulation category, with Surfer being the more skilled of the two, and Surfer seems to have more passive traits than Thor (empathy, psionics, higher degree of cosmic awareness, better means of travel, healing others, etc.).

I think we can all agree on one thing: only pansy-ass momma's boys like Surfer.

313

Originally posted by Digi
pansy-ass

Thor should be more powerful because when he used nothing more than brute force he could take out SS in a couple of shots in B & T.

Thor

Originally posted by Juntai
Thor.

I wont be surprised if most say Surfer tho.

it's in no way clear cut....seriously

Tough call.. In pure 1 on 1 combat I say Thor. Surfer in most other scenarios tho.

Thor for the majority

Originally posted by Juntai
Thor.

I wont be surprised if most say Surfer tho.

it's by feats, not overall scope of power.

surfer taps into the same power that galactus does, and there are hints of the possibility of his power rivaling him in the future.

to say one is clearly stronger than the other needs some sort of proof to back that up..... c'mon

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Goob, it might be that Mjolnir is simply a better conduit for channelling greater parts of the unlimited energy source at a time.

Both have an edge on their own in battles. Thor has much experience and the proper attitude, but Surfer's power cosmic just seems easier to use, you know? It just seems that firing off energy blasts and all that jazz is so much simpler and handier when it comes straight out of your hands.

In this scenario I imagine that they are both trying to unload on a training dummy or something. I would give Thor the edge because of a couple of things. First barring Godblast, none of Thor's attack require anything of him other than to direct Mjolnir. Second I believe that Mjolnir is simply able to put out more than Norrin.
That's entirely possible. I'm not saying that my interpretation is necessarily the "right" one(that's why I asked Mindship what he thought), I'm just pointing out that Surfer's statement isn't clear and is open to interpretation. Personally I agree with Digi in the sense that it's kind of an "apples and oranges" situation. Thor's hammer has it's advantages and so does Surfer. Thor's been shown to be better in some situations and against some foes and so has Surfer. I consider them to be approximately equal as far as overall power output is concerned.

Originally posted by Mindship

I think I see what you're saying: you're weighing specifics (ie, a cosmic field vs hammer-return enchantment, in which case the latter is more powerful) against a general overview (Power Cosmic output vs Mjolnir output, in which case they are about equal). Is that right? I had never really thought about it that way, in which case you may have a point but that also might be splitting hairs.
Yeah that's right. I can totally understand people taking it differently, but given the history of Thor's foes struggling with Thor's hammer and the fact that they ALWAYS have some comments about it my interpretation seems to fit a little better IMO. Another possibility is that he was commenting on the way Thor's hammer was able to absorb his cosmic bolts early in the fight but Surfer was still able to keep it away from him with a forcefield. Seriously, those two things(the "return effect" and absorption) are pretty much all the magic from Thor's hammer that Surfer had seen at that point so it doesn't really make sense for Surfer to say that. Thor never even landed a clean hit on Surfer, the closest he came was hitting the bottom of Surfer's board which knocked him through a wall. And if Surfer was making the comment in regards to that shot, it would seem more appropriate for Surfer to make the comment in regards to Thor's strength than it does for the "magic of his mallet".


Originally posted by Mindship
I suppose I'm trying to give Mjolnir its due, ie, it is (arguably) the most powerful Asgardian artifact going. If it is able to generate more sheer wattage, the significant drawback is that it is, in fact, an artifact requiring a wielder. In a sense, Thor is the "weak link" in the Thor-Mjolnir dyad, which for me nicely balances out the fact that the Surfer may not (???) be able to generate quite the same level of brute force, but on the other hand, Surfer is a self-contained power unit with no such tactical weakness.

(I'm also thinking of when Thor repulsed Galactus: a weakened one, true, and I still don't like that he did it; but was the Surfer ever capable of such a feat? I'm not sure, eg, if channeling Crunch energies would be the same as generating such energies).
Oh Thor's hammer definitely has it's advantages(such as a higher capacity to absorb energy), I just don't think power output is one of them. I mean Thor's damaged an EXTREMELY weakened Galactus with his Godblast, but then again Surfer's casually created a blackhole with his energy discharge(which kinda implies a blast on par with a super nova). I have a hard time crediting Thor's feat as being outright more impressive given some of Galactus's low showings and his occasional difficulties with magic.

so, what are each others' greatest feats? you can't seperate thor/mjollnir. they're one entity, essentially, and need to be for this discussion to mean anything.

so, best single feat of each? i have a couple in mind for both, but am curious what others think.

Can't wait to see Surfer vs Beta Ray Bill

Originally posted by leonidas
so, what are each others' greatest feats? you can't seperate thor/mjollnir. they're one entity, essentially, and need to be for this discussion to mean anything.

so, best single feat of each? i have a couple in mind for both, but am curious what others think.
I agree. Mjolnir is a part of Thor as the board is a part of Surfer.

Best feats? I'd say Thor ending the cycle of Ragnarok. Surfer creating blackholes and reacting in less than a nanosecond(?)

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
I agree. Mjolnir is a part of Thor as the board is a part of Surfer.

Best feats? I'd say Thor ending the cycle of Ragnarok. Surfer creating blackholes and reacting in less than a nanosecond(?)

Couple of things....

Thor did not create Mjolnir and it is not made out of the same substance he is. The board does not empower Surfer and he can recreate it at any time. They are not similar in any way actually

That was Rune King Thor and it was so much more impressive than creating black holes or reacting, which are not the Surfer's best feats.

Okay, to compare who is more "powerful" (which is a pretty ambiguous term) i think wed have to compare them in different aspects and weigh the different advantages they have over each other. So ill start with POWER OUTPUT:

-Thors best power output showings-would have to be from his Godblasti. against galactus,Exitar,Dark Gods. Then aside those, his showing againt durok which wasnt a godblast was also extremely imprdessive

-Surfers best output feats would have to be his surpassong mephistos output in his own dimension and Creating a blackhole casually with his output in annnihilation. Aside that we also have him apparently almost felling thor with a warning blast by thors own admission.

In this area they are prety even with the Godblast giving thor the edge.

ENERGY ABSORPTION:

-Thors best absorption feat i think woould be his absorption of the galaxy wrecking nullbomb.

-Surfers best absorption feat i think would be the absorption of souls in the unilord saga. But that did have some circumstance surrounding it

In this area definitely advantage thor

ENERGY/MATTER MANIPULATION:

-THors best energy/matter manip feat is probably his shrinking of Hyperion to the size of an ant.

-Surfers got a whole lot of feats here ,his evolution of a planet by billions of years, trasnmuting the deviant lord ghaur from bacteria to his bodily form,converting a universes worth of psychic/soul energy into cosmic energy,channeling the crunch,sealing away the oldpower, synthesizing the odinforce etc. All extremely extremely impressive

Definitely advantage surfer here.

Further in regards to the numerous other esoteric capabilities (which are ttoo many to name) both have. Surfer also has the advantage as he has a wider range of abilities than thor does.

Physically they are also dead even with surfer having the advantage in durability and speed and with thor having the advantage in strength and fighting skills.

Therefore when we compare advantages and feats they are still pretty even imo with no real clear cut winner.

I stopped at Godblast being a "slight edge" and started laughing uncontrollably.

Then I paused the laughing and forced my way down to energy/matter manipulation, at which the laughing ceased completely and facepalming began.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I stopped at Godblast being a "slight edge" and started laughing uncontrollably.

Then I paused the laughing and forced my way down to energy/matter manipulation, at which the laughing ceased completely and facepalming began.

which means thaat u are either blind,retarded or cant even read in the first place. where did u see "slight" in my post?

Also u think thors has the advantage over surfer in regards to energy/maatter manip?.......then u answered my question, u are definitely retarded.

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's no different than ANY hero. Is Captain America a pacifist? Heroes try to talk people down when they think there's a chance of it working, that's just what heroes do. They only jump right into conflict when they know there's no other alternative or when they have history with the person they're fighting.

Even before Annihilation, you can look to things like his fight with Cable(who was pleading for peace with the Surfer I believe) or this little encounter...

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4460/42697260.th.jpghttp://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2343/78570377.th.jpg

...to see that Surfer's no tree hugger when the shit hits the fan. I'm not saying the Surfer can't lay down the law from time to time, but deep down in there is that same pacifist. He is Galactus's lackey as well.


Surfer never had the spine that Thor did. Thor took on Exitar and refused to give up. The guy has the mentality and the power to do these things while Surfer holds back too often imo.

Look at the Surfer against Skaar and against the Hulk. When you look at Thor he foams at the mouth in a fight and actually has thrown his hammer away just to prove he doesn't need it to beat the Hulk.

Oh yeah, Thor is more powerful.

Originally posted by Naija boy
which means thaat u are either blind,retarded or cant even read in the first place. where did u see "slight" in my post?

Also u think thors has the advantage over surfer in regards to energy/maatter manip?.......then u answered my question, u are definitely retarded.

vFgXF0a_Yw4

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
vFgXF0a_Yw4

LMAO. Really kris......pitiful.
lack of debating skills FTL.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I'm not saying the Surfer can't lay down the law from time to time, but deep down in there is that same pacifist. He is Galactus's lackey as well.


Surfer never had the spine that Thor did. Thor took on Exitar and refused to give up. The guy has the mentality and the power to do these things while Surfer holds back too often imo.

Look at the Surfer against Skaar and against the Hulk. When you look at Thor he foams at the mouth in a fight and actually has thrown his hammer away just to prove he doesn't need it to beat the Hulk.

Oh yeah, Thor is more powerful.
Surfer not being as vicious as Thor most of the time doesn't make him a pacifist. Not everyone who's less violent than Thor is a pacifist. And Surfer has just as much spine as Thor. Hell Surfer's the one who jumpted in to take on Durok and Millinius when they were trouncing Thor as well as being the one to take down T&A.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Okay, to compare who is more "powerful" (which is a pretty ambiguous term) i think wed have to compare them in different aspects and weigh the different advantages they have over each other. So ill start with POWER OUTPUT:

-Thors best power output showings-would have to be from his Godblasti. against galactus,Exitar,Dark Gods. Then aside those, his showing againt durok which wasnt a godblast was also extremely imprdessive

-Surfers best output feats would have to be his surpassong mephistos output in his own dimension and Creating a blackhole casually with his output in annnihilation. Aside that we also have him apparently almost felling thor with a warning blast by thors own admission.

In this area they are prety even with the Godblast giving thor the edge.

ENERGY ABSORPTION:

-Thors best absorption feat i think woould be his absorption of the galaxy wrecking nullbomb.

-Surfers best absorption feat i think would be the absorption of souls in the unilord saga. But that did have some circumstance surrounding it

In this area definitely advantage thor

ENERGY/MATTER MANIPULATION:

-THors best energy/matter manip feat is probably his shrinking of Hyperion to the size of an ant.

-Surfers got a whole lot of feats here ,his evolution of a planet by billions of years, trasnmuting the deviant lord ghaur from bacteria to his bodily form,converting a universes worth of psychic/soul energy into cosmic energy,channeling the crunch,sealing away the oldpower, synthesizing the odinforce etc. All extremely extremely impressive

Definitely advantage surfer here.

Further in regards to the numerous other esoteric capabilities (which are ttoo many to name) both have. Surfer also has the advantage as he has a wider range of abilities than thor does.

Physically they are also dead even with surfer having the advantage in durability and speed and with thor having the advantage in strength and fighting skills.

Therefore when we compare advantages and feats they are still pretty even imo with no real clear cut winner.
If you think about it, another feat for Surfer is the fact that he's pretty much ALWAYS portrayed as being more powerful than the Hulk by a fair amount in their encounters(he even one shotted the guy with his surf board when the first met). Seriously, how many heroes can say the same?

Thor's more powerful.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If you think about it, another feat for Surfer is the fact that he's pretty much ALWAYS portrayed as being more powerful than the Hulk by a fair amount in their encounters(he even one shotted the guy with his surf board when the first met). Seriously, how many heroes can say the same?

True surfer does better against hulk than even thor. (though that could be attributed to their different fighting styles)

http://img42.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc81&image=82724_all9.jpg
http://img140.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc137&image=82728_all10.jpg

Originally posted by psycho gundam
http://img42.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc81&image=82724_all9.jpg
http://img140.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc137&image=82728_all10.jpg
Man, Surfer looked badass in the second scan.

morg ...not so much

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer not being as vicious as Thor most of the time doesn't make him a pacifist. Not everyone who's less violent than Thor is a pacifist. And Surfer has just as much spine as Thor. Hell Surfer's the one who jumpted in to take on Durok and Millinius when they were trouncing Thor as well as being the one to take down T&A. I never said that it did, but I gave a few examples of why he is still a pacifist.

No, not really. Surfer is a true hero and isn't a coward, but he's not even close to Thor and the resolve he brings to the table imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said that it did, but I gave a few examples of why he is still a pacifist.

No, not really. Surfer is a true hero and isn't a coward, but he's not even close to Thor and the resolve he brings to the table imo.
Your examples don't point to him being a pacifist. They just point to his preferring violence to non violence. Captain America is no different but that doesn't make him a pacifist. Hell Thor's got instances of his looking for a better solution than swinging his hammer too.

Would you like to compare feats of "resolve" between the two? You already mentioned Exitar and I countered with T&A so what else do you got?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Your examples don't point to him being a pacifist. They just point to his preferring violence to non violence. Captain America is no different but that doesn't make him a pacifist. Hell Thor's got instances of his looking for a better solution than swinging his hammer too.

Would you like to compare feats of "resolve" between the two? You already mentioned Exitar and I countered with T&A so what else do you got? Thor also has examples of trying to kill the Hulk and losing it on more than one occasion to battle lust.

Surfer manipulated the crunch which is entirely different than the godblast. Surfer also would have died had it not been for Galactus' interference. How is that impressive? The feat would have killed him.


Grog the godcrusher couldn't even make a depowered Thor scream out in pain while he was torturing him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor also has examples of trying to kill the Hulk and losing it on more than one occasion to battle lust.
And? Again, Surfer not being as violent as Thor doesn't make him a pacifist. I'm not saying that Thor's not more violent, I'm saying that Surfer's no pacifist.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Surfer manipulated the crunch which is entirely different than the godblast. Surfer also would have died had it not been for Galactus' interference. How is that impressive? The feat would have killed him.
I'm not comparing the crutch to the Godblast, I'm comparing the resolve involved. Was Thor at risk of dying from using the Godblast?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Grog the godcrusher couldn't even make a depowered Thor scream out in pain while he was torturing him.
Mephisto couldn't shatter Surfer's resolve when they were in Hades and he'd absorbed Surfer into his mind.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And? Again, Surfer not being as violent as Thor doesn't make him a pacifist. I'm not saying that Thor's not more violent, I'm saying that Surfer's no pacifist.


I'm not comparing the crutch to the Godblast, I'm comparing the resolve involved. Was Thor at risk of dying from using the Godblast?


Mephisto couldn't shatter Surfer's resolve when they were in Hades and he'd absorbed Surfer into his mind. Surfer not beating his enemies into submission has cost him before and will do so again. Skaar is the example. he ended up taking orders from Hulk's son due to his stupidity and his power weakening due to separating the old power. Not looking impressive in any regards in that arc imo.

Thor was at risk the entire time against overwhelming odds. Exitar is a much bigger threat than T and A as well which he took on under his own power. Like I said Thor is much more powerful. Just concede and we can just focus on our little mini debate here already.


Thor broke free from the goddess' control due to a battle with Drax.



All my points still stand. Thor is more powerful, is a better warrior, fights with more ferocity, and looks for fights while the Surfer seeks to avoid them. One lives for conflict and one doesn't.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Surfer not beating his enemies into submission has cost him before and will do so again. Skaar is the example. he ended up taking orders from Hulk's son due to his stupidity and his power weakening due to separating the old power. Not looking impressive in any regards in that arc imo.
The same can be said of most heroes, including Thor. If he hadn't been a dumbass and brought Loki back with the other Asgardians then Loki wouldn't be plotting on him right now.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor was at risk the entire time against overwhelming odds. Exitar is a much bigger threat than T and A as well which he took on under his own power. Like I said Thor is much more powerful. Just concede and we can just focus on our little mini debate here already.
Surfer was also at risk the entire time, so it's still not a better showing of resolve.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor broke free from the goddess' control due to a battle with Drax.
Surfer broke free of the Goddesses control without needing a battle with Drax.

Originally posted by quanchi112
All my points still stand. Thor is more powerful, is a better warrior, fights with more ferocity, and looks for fights while the Surfer seeks to avoid them. One lives for conflict and one doesn't.
Not really. He's definitely a better and more ferocious warrior MOST of the time(not that it matters in forum fights since the rules stipulate that everyone's bloodlusted), but he's not more powerful and he DOES seek to avoid fights when possible.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The same can be said of most heroes, including Thor. If he hadn't been a dumbass and brought Loki back with the other Asgardians then Loki wouldn't be plotting on him right now.


Surfer was also at risk the entire time, so it's still not a better showing of resolve.


Surfer broke free of the Goddesses control without needing a battle with Drax.


Not really. He's definitely a better and more ferocious warrior MOST of the time(not that it matters in forum fights since the rules stipulate that everyone's bloodlusted), but he's not more powerful and he DOES seek to avoid fights when possible. I am referring to an in the battle moment. Loki hasn't done anything overtly hostile to Thor yet and has been doing it all behind the scenes. Loki is also ten times the manipulator Skaar is while a teenager subjugated the Surfer to his whims as his submissive.

Both put their asses on the line many, many times. Thor stood against a Celestial while 100 issues back even his father couldn't so much as put up a respectable fight against the 4th host.

So both did so. Thor did it in the heat of battle showing he won't listen to anyone in the midst of battle. He lives for it. Thor was also mentally unbalanced at the time and that was the only reason imo that he was with her even momentarily.

I am not saying he doesn't avoid some battles, but that he really enjoys going at it. How many times has he lost his cool in the middle of a battle and endangered innocents while the Surfer wouldn't even kill Morg after he killed Nova.

Thor is hands down a better warrior and don't even try to deny it. He is also a lot more powerful and their battle showed it as well. The Surfer fled like a coward against an all out Thor. The comics back me up, sport.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am referring to an in the battle moment. Loki hasn't done anything overtly hostile to Thor yet and has been doing it all behind the scenes. Loki is also ten times the manipulator Skaar is while a teenager subjugated the Surfer to his whims as his submissive.
Loki's been doing crap to Thor for thousands of years, but Thor still made the dumbass mistake of resurrecting him

Originally posted by quanchi112
Both put their asses on the line many, many times. Thor stood against a Celestial while 100 issues back even his father couldn't so much as put up a respectable fight against the 4th host.
And Surfer took on T&A. We've covered those. What ELSE do you have to support your claim that Thor has a greater resolve?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So both did so. Thor did it in the heat of battle showing he won't listen to anyone in the midst of battle. He lives for it. Thor was also mentally unbalanced at the time and that was the only reason imo that he was with her even momentarily.
Why do you think that's the only reason he was with her in the first place, do you really think that's the only time he's been mind controlled... . Thor's head has been screwed with by Moondragon WITHOUT the Mind Gem a couple of times(in his defense he's also broken free and resisted). I didn't say that Surfer's feat was more impressive, I just matched the feat you listed.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not saying he doesn't avoid some battles, but that he really enjoys going at it. How many times has he lost his cool in the middle of a battle and endangered innocents while the Surfer wouldn't even kill Morg after he killed Nova.
Surfer doesn't condone cold blooded murder(even against a villain), but then again neither does Thor. Otherwise Loki probably would have died a thousand years ago. Surfer's more than willing to kill if it's necessary, otherwise he wouldn't have used time travel to prevent Overmind from even being born.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor is hands down a better warrior and don't even try to deny it. He is also a lot more powerful and their battle showed it as well. The Surfer fled like a coward against an all out Thor. The comics back me up, sport.
Depends on what you mean by "better". He most likely is more skilled, but Surfer's far more effective in combat. Also, he's not obviously more powerful and has even admitted that a warning blast from Surfer would have killed him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Loki's been doing crap to Thor for thousands of years, but Thor still made the dumbass mistake of resurrecting him


And Surfer took on T&A. We've covered those. What ELSE do you have to support your claim that Thor has a greater resolve?


Why do you think that's the only reason he was with her in the first place, do you really think that's the only time he's been mind controlled... . Thor's head has been screwed with by Moondragon WITHOUT the Mind Gem a couple of times(in his defense he's also broken free and resisted). I didn't say that Surfer's feat was more impressive, I just matched the feat you listed.


Surfer doesn't condone cold blooded murder(even against a villain), but then again neither does Thor. Otherwise Loki probably would have died a thousand years ago. Surfer's more than willing to kill if it's necessary, otherwise he wouldn't have used time travel to prevent Overmind from even being born.


Depends on what you mean by "better". He most likely is more skilled, but Surfer's far more effective in combat. Also, he's not obviously more powerful and has even admitted that a warning blast from Surfer would have killed him. It's his step brother. Loki is also a clever, insidious being who will always find a way to manage.

I already told you. You have yet to speak about Grog the godcrusher. Bout time you conceded to Thor's overall power level being much higher than one of the Surfer's greatest feats which would have killed him if not for Galactus' intervention.

I never said it was the only time he was mindcontrolled. I merely stated that in this specific example that he wouldn't have followed her in his proper state of mind. He wanted to burn down asgard and crush his father.

His insanity actually was so strong it took physical manifestation in the story due to the events of the story.

Matched the feat? What are you talking about. The Surfer has been doing Galactus' dirty work for years and after all the pain and suffering he put him through he is actually dumb enough to service him again as his complete and utter lackey.

Thor would never follow around someone like Galactus as his peon like the Surfer is.

Thor has tried to kill the Hulk before and he isn't a bloodthirsty villain. Surfer just doesn't have the ferocity of Thor and the killer instinct. It's in his dna I am afraid.

No, the Surfer really isn't. Points to the Skaar fight where he lost too much power by separating the old power and his initial battle with Morg. The only reason the Surfer beat Morg is because he heals while Morg hasn't honed his skills yet and based on brutality and ferocity he wins hands down against Norrin. It's not in Norrin's dna.


Thor went all out against the Surfer and when the Surfer did the same he easily got pwned. The Surfer and Warlock couldn't even put up a decent defense against Thor two on one. Very rarely does a top tier handily decimate another one in the manner Thor had against Norrin. The funny thing is he did so again with Warlock at his side.


Nothing you say can take away from this and you will try and fail at distancing yourself from Thor owning the Surfer, twice.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's his step brother. Loki is also a clever, insidious being who will always find a way to manage.

I already told you. You have yet to speak about Grog the godcrusher. Bout time you conceded to Thor's overall power level being much higher than one of the Surfer's greatest feats which would have killed him if not for Galactus' intervention.

I never said it was the only time he was mindcontrolled. I merely stated that in this specific example that he wouldn't have followed her in his proper state of mind. He wanted to burn down asgard and crush his father.

His insanity actually was so strong it took physical manifestation in the story due to the events of the story.

Matched the feat? What are you talking about. The Surfer has been doing Galactus' dirty work for years and after all the pain and suffering he put him through he is actually dumb enough to service him again as his complete and utter lackey.

Thor would never follow around someone like Galactus as his peon like the Surfer is.

Thor has tried to kill the Hulk before and he isn't a bloodthirsty villain. Surfer just doesn't have the ferocity of Thor and the killer instinct. It's in his dna I am afraid.

No, the Surfer really isn't. Points to the Skaar fight where he lost too much power by separating the old power and his initial battle with Morg. The only reason the Surfer beat Morg is because he heals while Morg hasn't honed his skills yet and based on brutality and ferocity he wins hands down against Norrin. It's not in Norrin's dna.


Thor went all out against the Surfer and when the Surfer did the same he easily got pwned. The Surfer and Warlock couldn't even put up a decent defense against Thor two on one. Very rarely does a top tier handily decimate another one in the manner Thor had against Norrin. The funny thing is he did so again with Warlock at his side.


Nothing you say can take away from this and you will try and fail at distancing yourself from Thor owning the Surfer, twice.
And he's evil to the core, and Thor brought him back.

Yes I did, I brought up Mephisto. And I conceded no such thing. I never use the Crunch as a power output feat, I just use it as a channeling feat(and in this case, a resolve feat).

What makes you think it wouldn't have happened otherwise? You keep saying that, but why?

You mentioned him breaking out of the Goddess's mind control as a resolve feat(at least that's what I thought it was) and I brought up Surfer doing the same.



That's in the heat of combat, he's never tried to kill him when he was beaten and helpless. Sure he is. You said it yourself, Thor mixes it up with the Hulk and has massive problems because of it. Surfer ends the fight early via gamma draining and such. And of course Morg's more ferocious than Surfer .

PIS plain and simple. Surfer jumped off his board like a moron and gave up his massive mobility advantage. But you can look to their first fight to see that it's not his standard strategy. I'm calling PIS on one fight, you're trying to ignore every fight Thor's had with Hulk, Wonder Man, and Firelord.

And he obviously wasn't going all out, because according to Thor a warning blast from Surfer can kill him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Another possibility is that he was commenting on the way Thor's hammer was able to absorb his cosmic bolts early in the fight but Surfer was still able to keep it away from him with a forcefield.IIRC, Thor was holding the hammer when absorbing those bolts, whereas he was already apart from it when it was being contained, so the "artifact needing a wielder" aspect could've been in effect. On the other hand, Surfer was able to separate Thor from Mjolnir in the first place: there one could ask where the heck was the mallet's superior magic (you do realize of course we're nitpicking, but hey, this is what it's all about at KMC ).

Seriously, those two things(the "return effect" and absorption) are pretty much all the magic from Thor's hammer that Surfer had seen at that point so it doesn't really make sense for Surfer to say that. Surfer could've been generalizing. Then again, Surfer also says throughout that fight that he's never felt more powerful. Given the history of his power loss up to that point (sonic shark, etc) and Loki's amping (which, for reasons I've posted a zillion times in other threads, is not as great IMO as one might think), to me that makes no sense. Eh, fight hype.

I mean Thor's damaged an EXTREMELY weakened Galactus with his Godblast, but then again Surfer's casually created a blackhole with his energy discharge(which kinda implies a blast on par with a super nova). I have a hard time crediting Thor's feat as being outright more impressive given some of Galactus's low showings and his occasional difficulties with magic. Yeah, Galactus does have one of the best jobber aura's going (I mean, Sue piercing him with a forcefield??? C'mon). Personally, I think Surfer should be able to effect Galactus more than has traditionally been shown. But I think Marvel has drawn a very definite Master-Servant line, so to speak, which supercedes what might be more logical, given an ABC comparison between Surfer/Thor/Galactus, or better yet, Surfer/Thor/Hulk.

Originally posted by leonidas
you can't seperate thor/mjollnir. Conceptually, functionally, no. But the fact is, Thor is much more dependent on Mjolnir than Soarin' Norrin is on his board. Heck, when Surfer separated Thor from Mjolnir in their first fight, Surfer wasn't even on his board.

Originally posted by Mindship
Conceptually, functionally, no. But the fact is, Thor is much more dependent on Mjolnir than Soarin' Norrin is on his board. Heck, when Surfer separated Thor from Mjolnir in their first fight, Surfer wasn't even on his board.

Why do you use that fight?

Fighting with Loki's power added onto his own, it's just not a scenario that's possible to replicate.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer not being as vicious as Thor most of the time doesn't make him a pacifist. Not everyone who's less violent than Thor is a pacifist. And Surfer has just as much spine as Thor. Hell Surfer's the one who jumpted in to take on Durok and Millinius when they were trouncing Thor as well as being the one to take down T&A.

You make it sound as if Surfer did better than Thor when actually Thor had been fighting Durok for many hours and Surfer was knocked unconscious much faster....

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Why do you use that fight? You know why I think that, as we've discussed it in another thread.

Originally posted by Mindship
You know why I think that, as we've discussed it in another thread.

Surfer was somewhat depowered yes, but Loki gave him all of his power.During Thor's imprisonment by Seth, Loki was able to restore him by giving him HALF of his own strength. It's impossible to tell how strong that Surfer was in comparison to his usual self, thus it's pure speculation.

I don't use Blood and Thunder as a way of gauging their power levels.

Interesting thread, I'll keep reading

Originally posted by darthgoober
And he's evil to the core, and Thor brought him back.

Yes I did, I brought up Mephisto. And I conceded no such thing. I never use the Crunch as a power output feat, I just use it as a channeling feat(and in this case, a resolve feat).

What makes you think it wouldn't have happened otherwise? You keep saying that, but why?

You mentioned him breaking out of the Goddess's mind control as a resolve feat(at least that's what I thought it was) and I brought up Surfer doing the same.



That's in the heat of combat, he's never tried to kill him when he was beaten and helpless. Sure he is. You said it yourself, Thor mixes it up with the Hulk and has massive problems because of it. Surfer ends the fight early via gamma draining and such. And of course Morg's more ferocious than Surfer .

PIS plain and simple. Surfer jumped off his board like a moron and gave up his massive mobility advantage. But you can look to their first fight to see that it's not his standard strategy. I'm calling PIS on one fight, you're trying to ignore every fight Thor's had with Hulk, Wonder Man, and Firelord.

And he obviously wasn't going all out, because according to Thor a warning blast from Surfer can kill him. Thor ended asgard including Loki at the end of his run. Again, Loki is a clever manipulator and they weren't in the midst of a battle. Surfer just tried to leave town after he told everyone on planet Sakaar they were all doomed. He's an idiot and shouldn't have left himself so vulnerable to Skaar. He paid for it.

When has Thor ever given up to Mephisto? Hela also wants his soul badly. Thor is more sought after than even the Silver Surfer. Mephisto backed down to Hela too by the way when she threatened to invade his realm. Food for thought.

This is why pis is a bad rule. You are handicapping Thor while dismissing a direct confrontation. I can call pis on his fight with the Hulk because he trades blows for blow while ignoring his hammer's exotic abilities that could get him the win every time. You cannot dismiss one while not calling pis on the other.

We have two direct fights. Thor won decisively in both of them. Warlock had to save the Surfer's ass by using his board to flee.

Because he was mentally unstable and looking for another cause since he turned his back on Odin and asgard.


Yes, I did so to show the resolve he has during battle which the Surfer does not have. Surfer battles as a last resort while Thor and all asgardians live to test themselves.


I understand this, but the fact remains the Surfer will avoid killing someone at all costs even during the heat of combat while the Surfer won't. He won't even take the life of someone who will continue to murder over and over again while just butchering Nova.

Thor was probably going to kill the red hulk as well while he was stunned and at his mercy prior to Rulk interfering. Surfer couldn't even beat Thanos in Strange's scenario even after he had the advantage. The guy is weak and always will be.

Yes, thor and Hulk have one heckuva rivalry but the Surfer and Thor don't. Thor has dominated him twice in one story under his own power. ABC logic won't save you here. Yes, and like I said the only reason Morg didn't defeat the Surfer is due to Surfer healing himself which Morg hasn't shown the ability to do. That's it.

What are you talking about? Thor almost killed the Surfer twice. Thor going all out>>Surfer going all out with Warlock at his side. The comic showed us how a fight goes down and it wasn't even close. Surfer fled from thor's wrath.

2+ pages of babbling about battle tactics when a simple "thor hails from a race of vikings and norrin a race of scholars" would have sufficed.

it's not clear which character is more outright powerful, but the silver surfer IS essential to the universe and is held in high regard with some of the abstracts.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
2+ pages of babbling about battle tactics when a simple "thor hails from a race of vikings and norrin a race of scholars" would have sufficed.

it's not clear which character is more outright powerful, but the silver surfer IS essential to the universe and is held in high regard with some of the abstracts.

How is he essential?

He's been replaced 5 times man.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
2+ pages of babbling about battle tactics when a simple "thor hails from a race of vikings and norrin a race of scholars" would have sufficed.

it's not clear which character is more outright powerful, but the silver surfer IS essential to the universe and is held in high regard with some of the abstracts. Godblast. Nuff said. Until the Surfer can bring something to the table equal to that Thor is the more powerful of the two.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Surfer was somewhat depowered yes, but Loki gave him all of his power.During Thor's imprisonment by Seth, Loki was able to restore him by giving him HALF of his own strength. It's impossible to tell how strong that Surfer was in comparison to his usual self, thus it's pure speculation. IMO, that Loki gave Surfer all his power back is speculation. As we debated in that other thread, Loki tested Surfer and could only stalemate him, implying that at best Loki could only double what Surfer had then, which as I also documented was only a tiny fraction of what he had pre-sonic-shark.

We could recount the whole debate here, but what would be the point. I think it's safe to say, this is something we won't see eye-to-eye on.

Originally posted by quanchi112
We have two direct fights. Thor won decisively in both of them. I always considered WM Thor's win over Surfer legit because of how WM affects Thor. Even if we dismiss the arguable 10x increase in strength, throughout the fight (except for the very end) Surfer was holding back whereas WM Thor was not, which means that throughout the fight (except at the end) Surfer was taking more punishment from Thor than Thor from Surfer.

As for the first fight...this was hardly a decisive victory. If anything, it could easily have been decisive with Surfer winning. I hate to bring it up (because it seems so indignant to Thor), but Surfer had Thor crawling on the ground after Surfer separated him from Mjolnir. Imagine if Surfer had not paused in his attacks to monologue, thus giving Thor the moment he needed to recuperate...

((And the more I think about Goob's points: how indeed could Surfer separate Thor from Mjolnir if the mallet's magic was so superior?? Meps. For my own sense of balance between the characters, I prefer to give Mjolnir's power the benefit of the doubt, ie, that with it, Thor can generate more sheer wattage, if that's how we're defining power here. But as for who would win in a fight...?)).

Of course, one could debate just how powerful Surfer was in the first fight, but Kris Blaze and I cover that ground over and over and over...

Originally posted by psycho gundam
2+ pages of babbling about battle tactics You say that like it's a bad thing.

Originally posted by Mindship
IMO, that Loki gave Surfer all his power back is speculation. As we debated in that other thread, Loki tested Surfer and could only stalemate him, implying that at best Loki could only double what Surfer had then, which as I also documented was only a tiny fraction of what he had pre-sonic-shark.

And this is where the true bias wrestles control over you.

Surfer with a fraction of his power is strong enough to stalemate Loki.

Mindship, one quick thing in response to your post. It wasn't warrior's madness. They thought it was, but it wasn't. There was no amp in strength making it perfectly within the realm of an all out Thor with no additional amps until later on when he acquired the power gem.

Quanchi's correct.

Thor was simply mad.

The Warrior Madness is completely different.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Thor's battle with HIM and his first Warrior Madness experience. Like we see at the end, once the battle is won he naturally reverts out of the madness:

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-01.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-02.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-03.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-04.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-08.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-09.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-10.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-11.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-12.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-13.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-14.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-15.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-16.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor166-17.jpg

As punishment for this, Thor is later sent out to find out the origin of Galactus.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
And this is where the true bias wrestles control over you.

Surfer with a fraction of his power is strong enough to stalemate Loki. You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but Norrin was not the one who yelled (in Asgardian), "Enough"! It would be better if you argued for the stalemate being PIS.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mindship, one quick thing in response to your post. It wasn't warrior's madness. They thought it was, but it wasn't. There was no amp in strength making it perfectly within the realm of an all out Thor with no additional amps until later on when he acquired the power gem. Ah. Well, I had been doubting that strength-amp anyway. Thanks for the clarification.

I always saw Thor and SS to be equally as powerful. I just believe Thor is the better fighter and is more effective against single targets. Surfer is not as good a fighter (and suffers from MAJOR CISitis) but is a bit more versatile, a lot more mobile and can do better against multiple targets as well as can do better wide-area damage.

I always see Thor winning in a 1v1 fight between the two, tho.

Speaking of Thor vs Surfer, anyone got the BRB vs Thor issue yet?

Originally posted by Mindship
You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but Norrin was not the one who yelled (in Asgardian), "Enough"! It would be better if you argued for the stalemate being PIS.

"Enow" doesn't really indicate that he's losing....

Monarch often told people to stop in Arena. Did he do this because they were threats to him?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Godblast. Nuff said. Until the Surfer can bring something to the table equal to that Thor is the more powerful of the two. to play devil's advocate, the godblast is powerful, but at the same time it's thor's most potent attack and therefor the pinnacle of his offensive abilities = majority of his power/life force directed at an opponent. it also leaves him drained after it's use.

i think it's pure pis tbh, but 8th day juggy tanked it and the earth didn't vaporize from the splash damage

the godblast is actually a good thing to use when gauging thor since it's not mjolnir but thor that powers it, mjolnir is just the conduit for it's release.

again, devil's advocate

Thor can still do planet-busting attacks without doing the godblast.

I unno, a Black Hole cud do more wanton destruction than the Godblast across a larger area, wouldn't it?

A Godblast is a heckuvalot more effective against single targets, tho.

definitely, why the beam had no effect is dumbfounding, but imo it's all thor without the "mjolnir factor".

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You make it sound as if Surfer did better than Thor when actually Thor had been fighting Durok for many hours and Surfer was knocked unconscious much faster....
I don't remember Surfer ever actually being knocked unconscious. I'm mean sure he was stunned a couple of times, but I don't think he was actualy KO'd at any point.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
to play devil's advocate, the godblast is powerful, but at the same time it's thor's most potent attack and therefor the pinnacle of his offensive abilities = majority of his power/life force directed at an opponent. it also leaves him drained after it's use.

i think it's pure pis tbh, but 8th day juggy tanked it and the earth didn't vaporize from the splash damage

the godblast is actually a good thing to use when gauging thor since it's not mjolnir but thor that powers it, mjolnir is just the conduit for it's release.

again, devil's advocate Who cares if it leaves him vulnerable afterwards. It proves he is more powerful. That is what this thread is all about.

You know comics don't have to make sense, right?

Originally posted by D_Dude1210
I unno, a Black Hole cud do more wanton destruction than the Godblast across a larger area, wouldn't it?

A Godblast is a heckuvalot more effective against single targets, tho. The thread isn't about who can cause more massive destruction, but who is more powerful.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't remember Surfer ever actually being knocked unconscious. I'm mean sure he was stunned a couple of times, but I don't think he was actualy KO'd at any point.

You're correct.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The thread isn't about who can cause more massive destruction, but who is more powerful.

W/c isn't clear on what the correct criteria would be about what "powerful" is.

An extremely powerful laser could cut thru even the strongest alloys like butter, but a typhoon would be able to cause more wanton destruction but be unable to even scratch it, w/c is more powerful?

It'll be impossible to reach a proper conclusion here. They're both very powerful and they both have their own strengths and weaknesses. Though both have very few of the latter.

I'll upload some scans where Thor chooses not to harm innocents who attack.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
"Enow" doesn't really indicate that he's losing.... Not losing: stalemating. Maybe Loki figured he'd get as far with Surfer, if he continued, as you and I get in always debating that fight.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

As for Juggs handling the Godblast (and so easily): the writers should never have thrown it in in the first place, IMO. For Galactus, it was an acceptable option, all things considered. But for Juggs...the fight could've been just as exciting, I bet, with other options (Thor didn't use it on Mangog, did he?). If you bring up something special too often, it ceases to be special.

Originally posted by Mindship
Not losing: stalemating. Maybe Loki figured he'd get as far with Surfer, if he continued, as you and I get in always debating that fight.

<> <> <> <> <> <>

As for Juggs handling the Godblast (and so easily): the writers should never have thrown it in in the first place, IMO. For Galactus, it was an acceptable option, all things considered. But for Juggs...the fight could've been just as exciting, I bet, with other options (Thor didn't use it on Mangog, did he?). If you bring up something special too often, it ceases to be special.

Loki discovered that Surfer was powerful enough for the task

Thor didn't use it against Mangog. And it DID serve it's purpose against Juggernaut, forcing him back and into the ground so that he could be BFR'D.

To be fair, Thor was weakened at the time, so the Godblast might not have been full strength either.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Who cares if it leaves him vulnerable afterwards. It proves he is more powerful. That is what this thread is all about.

You know comics don't have to make sense, right? don't be stupid.

if the blast misses or doesn't work, he's gambled and lost a lot of energy and vitality he normally would have had. basically it's like cashing in most of your chips on a roulette table.

it matters.

Thor can harm Surfer using regular attacks, why the fudge would he use a Godblast? He used it against Galactus, Exitar, One of the Enchanters and Juggernaut. All of whom are either much more powerful than him or obscenely difficult to injure.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor ended asgard including Loki at the end of his run. Again, Loki is a clever manipulator and they weren't in the midst of a battle. Surfer just tried to leave town after he told everyone on planet Sakaar they were all doomed. He's an idiot and shouldn't have left himself so vulnerable to Skaar. He paid for it.

When has Thor ever given up to Mephisto? Hela also wants his soul badly. Thor is more sought after than even the Silver Surfer. Mephisto backed down to Hela too by the way when she threatened to invade his realm. Food for thought.

This is why pis is a bad rule. You are handicapping Thor while dismissing a direct confrontation. I can call pis on his fight with the Hulk because he trades blows for blow while ignoring his hammer's exotic abilities that could get him the win every time. You cannot dismiss one while not calling pis on the other.

We have two direct fights. Thor won decisively in both of them. Warlock had to save the Surfer's ass by using his board to flee.

Because he was mentally unstable and looking for another cause since he turned his back on Odin and asgard.


Yes, I did so to show the resolve he has during battle which the Surfer does not have. Surfer battles as a last resort while Thor and all asgardians live to test themselves.


I understand this, but the fact remains the Surfer will avoid killing someone at all costs even during the heat of combat while the Surfer won't. He won't even take the life of someone who will continue to murder over and over again while just butchering Nova.

Thor was probably going to kill the red hulk as well while he was stunned and at his mercy prior to Rulk interfering. Surfer couldn't even beat Thanos in Strange's scenario even after he had the advantage. The guy is weak and always will be.

Yes, thor and Hulk have one heckuva rivalry but the Surfer and Thor don't. Thor has dominated him twice in one story under his own power. ABC logic won't save you here. Yes, and like I said the only reason Morg didn't defeat the Surfer is due to Surfer healing himself which Morg hasn't shown the ability to do. That's it.

What are you talking about? Thor almost killed the Surfer twice. Thor going all out>>Surfer going all out with Warlock at his side. The comic showed us how a fight goes down and it wasn't even close. Surfer fled from thor's wrath.
We weren't comparing Loki to Skaar, we were comparing Thor's capacity to let evil villains off the hook without killing them to Surfers. They both do it.

I never said that he did. I just pointed out a resolve feat from Surfer that's just as impressive as your feat from Thor.

Hey you're the one who thinks Hulk vs Thor confrontations are valid, I'm more than willing to admit that Thor not using his powers is PIS. But Surfer's portrayed as being outright more powerful than Hulk in most of their encounters, there's always a question in regards to Thor though.

Surfer has just as much resolve as Thor, which is why I've been able to match feats.

"Surfer will avoid killing someone at all costs even during the heat of combat while the Surfer won't."... Surfer's more than willing to kill in the heat of combat.

Surfer didn't want to die because he took out Thanos. Thor wouldn't have finished him off either.

What the Hell does Morg have to do with this thread? And what makes you think he only won because he healed himself? I don't remember that being shown at all in their fight.

I'm talking about Thor saying in another encounter that a warning blast from Surfer nearly killed him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
We weren't comparing Loki to Skaar, we were comparing Thor's capacity to let evil villains off the hook without killing them to Surfers. They both do it.

I never said that he did. I just pointed out a resolve feat from Surfer that's just as impressive as your feat from Thor.

They both like to do the right thing and avoid combat.

But when it gets down to it, Thor's much easier to goad into a fight. Partially because he actually enjoys it and partially because his asgardian heritage demands that he honours a challenge.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
They both like to do the right thing and avoid combat.

But when it gets down to it, Thor's much easier to goad into a fight. Partially because he actually enjoys it and partially because his asgardian heritage demands that he honours a challenge.
I never said otherwise. I'm just addressing Quan's claims that Surfer is a pacifist who avoids combat at any cost. But like I said not everyone who's less violent than Thor is a pacifist. When you get right down to it, Surfer's no more a pacifist than Captain America(especially since Annihilation).

Thor vs Mephisto and the legions of hell

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-02.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-03.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-04.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-05.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-06.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-07.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-09.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-10.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-11.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-12.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-13.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-14.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-15.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-16.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-17.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-18.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-19.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor205-20.jpg

Thor vs Loki's minions and eventually Loki. (Thor is weakened here and Loki beats him)

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor206-12.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor206-13.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor206-14.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor206-17.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/Thor206-18.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_04.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_05.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_06.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_07.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_09.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_10.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_11.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_12.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_13.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_14.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_15.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_17.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_18.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_19.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/Thor%20comics/thor_207_20.jpg

We also see that Thor tries to avoid harming the dogs.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I never said otherwise. I'm just addressing Quan's claims that Surfer is a pacifist who avoids combat at any cost. But like I said not everyone who's less violent than Thor is a pacifist.

Yup, I'm agreeing with you

Originally posted by darthgoober
We weren't comparing Loki to Skaar, we were comparing Thor's capacity to let evil villains off the hook without killing them to Surfers. They both do it.

I never said that he did. I just pointed out a resolve feat from Surfer that's just as impressive as your feat from Thor.

Hey you're the one who thinks Hulk vs Thor confrontations are valid, I'm more than willing to admit that Thor not using his powers is PIS. But Surfer's portrayed as being outright more powerful than Hulk in most of their encounters, there's always a question in regards to Thor though.

Surfer has just as much resolve as Thor, which is why I've been able to match feats.

"Surfer will avoid killing someone at all costs even during the heat of combat while the Surfer won't."... Surfer's more than willing to kill in the heat of combat.

Surfer didn't want to die because he took out Thanos. Thor wouldn't have finished him off either.

What the Hell does Morg have to do with this thread? And what makes you think he only won because he healed himself? I don't remember that being shown at all in their fight.

I'm talking about Thor saying in another encounter that a warning blast from Surfer nearly killed him. I am not saying they both don't do it from time to time as they are both heroes I am saying the Surfer does it ninety nine point nine percent of the time.

Surfer did it during a battle which got him serviced by Skaar. He left himself vulnerable. That is the difference between the Surfer and Thor. Surfer isn't even smart enough to beat his opponent into submission when he has the upper hand.

Because of Thor's warrior like mentality. If Surfer had Thor's hammer Hulk couldn't goad him into tossing it aside like he does against Thor. Thor's vanity as a warrior has him meet Hulk blow for blow refusing to give in. Surfer doesn't have the warrior mentality. If you want to argue powerset vs. powerset Thor crushes the Hulk but they fight in character. So we also accept the Surfer's battle against Thor as he was dominated in character and it's a legitimate showing you want to ignore because your poster boy got crushed.

Nope. I don't see him as having as much resolve as Thor.

You really haven't matched feats. You have given a few examples of him battling unto death, but Thor would do the same thing. Surfer also ran like a coward from Thor in a direct confrontation. Such resolve.

He didn't do so against Ravenous or Morg who just killed Nova.


He was screaming at Terrax to stop while Terrax just basically did what needed to be done. Surfer's mentality is too merciful even when someone he cares for gets killed right in front of him.

I disagree. Had Thor been in that situation he would have defeated Thanos. Didn't he kill the Thanos clone? What the hell is your point?


Yes, Surfer said that Morg only relies on brute force and what not while the Surfer healed himself during this fight making it the determining factor.

That has what to do with them going all out in blood and thunder? The Surfer could barely phase him let alone kill him.


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thor_vol2-521-019-20.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thor_vol2-522-020-09.jpg

Originally posted by quanchi112
Mindship, one quick thing in response to your post. It wasn't warrior's madness. They thought it was, but it wasn't. There was no amp in strength making it perfectly within the realm of an all out Thor with no additional amps until later on when he acquired the power gem.
Ohh dont know about that, take a look at this scan..

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8494/brb1kt0.th.jpg

It might not be WM but its similar.. He draws strength from it..

Originally posted by Ambient
Ohh dont know about that, take a look at this scan..

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8494/brb1kt0.th.jpg

It might not be WM but its similar.. He draws strength from it.. Later it was decided by Odin not to be warrior's madness. He was just crazy. he wasn't amped at all until he got the power gem.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I am not saying they both don't do it from time to time as they are both heroes I am saying the Surfer does it ninety nine point nine percent of the time.

Surfer did it during a battle which got him serviced by Skaar. He left himself vulnerable. That is the difference between the Surfer and Thor. Surfer isn't even smart enough to beat his opponent into submission when he has the upper hand.

Because of Thor's warrior like mentality. If Surfer had Thor's hammer Hulk couldn't goad him into tossing it aside like he does against Thor. Thor's vanity as a warrior has him meet Hulk blow for blow refusing to give in. Surfer doesn't have the warrior mentality. If you want to argue powerset vs. powerset Thor crushes the Hulk but they fight in character. So we also accept the Surfer's battle against Thor as he was dominated in character and it's a legitimate showing you want to ignore because your poster boy got crushed.

Nope. I don't see him as having as much resolve as Thor.

You really haven't matched feats. You have given a few examples of him battling unto death, but Thor would do the same thing. Surfer also ran like a coward from Thor in a direct confrontation. Such resolve.

He didn't do so against Ravenous or Morg who just killed Nova.


He was screaming at Terrax to stop while Terrax just basically did what needed to be done. Surfer's mentality is too merciful even when someone he cares for gets killed right in front of him.

I disagree. Had Thor been in that situation he would have defeated Thanos. Didn't he kill the Thanos clone? What the hell is your point?


Yes, Surfer said that Morg only relies on brute force and what not while the Surfer healed himself during this fight making it the determining factor.

That has what to do with them going all out in blood and thunder? The Surfer could barely phase him let alone kill him.


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thor_vol2-521-019-20.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/Thor_vol2-522-020-09.jpg
Yeah Surfer does it more often which is why Thor's more violent. But the fact that Thor does it too means that it's not the trait of a pacifist unless you consider Thor one.

Which supports the notion that Surfer's more effective in combat, because he's not goaded into rash action nearly as often. No I accept neither because of PIS(and in the case of Blood and Thunder, an inconsistent portrayal of the characters).

Of course he has as much resolve and of course I've matched feats. You brought up his standing his ground in the face of near certain death against the Celestials, I brought up Surfer doing the same against T&A. You brought up him breaking free of the Goddess, I brought up Surfer doing the same. You brought up his resolve during torture, I brought up Surfer's resolve while trapped in the mind of Mephisto.

He's still done it. Just because there are instances of him not killing it doesn't mean that he refuses to kill. Do you have any idea how many times Thor's let his opponent go without killing them?

Surfer seeks justice, not vengeance. That doesn't make him a pacifist.

If Thanos had been killed the Universe would have been doomed(this was specifically covered towards the end of the fight from what I remember). Thor wouldn't sacrifice the universe just to sate his desire for vengeance, that's why he's a hero.

Again, when was Surfer stated to be healing himself during their fight?

Because Thor's statement points to B&T being BS. As does Thor's previous fights with guys like Firelord.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah Surfer does it more often which is why Thor's more violent. But the fact that Thor does it too means that it's not the trait of a pacifist unless you consider Thor one.

Which supports the notion that Surfer's more effective in combat, because he's not goaded into rash action nearly as often. No I accept neither because of PIS(and in the case of Blood and Thunder, an inconsistent portrayal of the characters).

Of course he has as much resolve and of course I've matched feats. You brought up his standing his ground in the face of near certain death against the Celestials, I brought up Surfer doing the same against T&A. You brought up him breaking free of the Goddess, I brought up Surfer doing the same. You brought up his resolve during torture, I brought up Surfer's resolve while trapped in the mind of Mephisto.

He's still done it. Just because there are instances of him not killing it doesn't mean that he refuses to kill. Do you have any idea how many times Thor's let his opponent go without killing them?

Surfer seeks justice, not vengeance. That doesn't make him a pacifist.

If Thanos had been killed the Universe would have been doomed(this was specifically covered towards the end of the fight from what I remember). Thor wouldn't sacrifice the universe just to sate his desire for vengeance, that's why he's a hero.

Again, when was Surfer stated to be healing himself during their fight?

Because Thor's statement points to B&T being BS. As does Thor's previous fights with guys like Firelord. Thor is a warrior and it has nothing to do with him being more violent. he doesn't go around killing anyone but he will kill a beaten opponent which you disputed. The Surfer is too weak to do what must be done at time so Terrax helped him out.

That's because you disagree with the outcome. That's why pis drives me crazy and be used sparingly. You are basically saying the writer's stuff doesn't cut it and you will ignore it and write it off basically as the Surfer got crushed. That's essentially what you are doing.

Once again the Surfer fled from the Thor therefore in direct comparison Thor has a greater resolve. Thor wouldn't stop battling Drax even when he was told it was pointless as long as Drax had the power gem he was physically unbeatable.

I provided a nearly identical situation to the one the Surfer was in. Thor wanted to kill a defeated opponent while the Surfer protested at Terrax doing so to Morg. The guy just butchered Nova and he didn't have the stones to let someone else do it.

His mentality makes him a pacifist. The guy wanted to give up his power cosmic before.

Surfer wouldn't kill Thanos, ever. Thor has done just that. It was later retconned into a clone, but it doesn't change the fact that Surfer wouldn't do so. It's not in him.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/SilverSurferAnnual07_29-1.jpg


Quit running from their direct confrontations in blood and thunder.

Originally posted by Ambient
Ohh dont know about that, take a look at this scan..

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8494/brb1kt0.th.jpg

It might not be WM but its similar.. He draws strength from it..

We can't see the picture.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
We can't see the picture.
I can.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor is a warrior and it has nothing to do with him being more violent. he doesn't go around killing anyone but he will kill a beaten opponent which you disputed. The Surfer is too weak to do what must be done at time so Terrax helped him out.

That's because you disagree with the outcome. That's why pis drives me crazy and be used sparingly. You are basically saying the writer's stuff doesn't cut it and you will ignore it and write it off basically as the Surfer got crushed. That's essentially what you are doing.

Once again the Surfer fled from the Thor therefore in direct comparison Thor has a greater resolve. Thor wouldn't stop battling Drax even when he was told it was pointless as long as Drax had the power gem he was physically unbeatable.

I provided a nearly identical situation to the one the Surfer was in. Thor wanted to kill a defeated opponent while the Surfer protested at Terrax doing so to Morg. The guy just butchered Nova and he didn't have the stones to let someone else do it.

His mentality makes him a pacifist. The guy wanted to give up his power cosmic before.

Surfer wouldn't kill Thanos, ever. Thor has done just that. It was later retconned into a clone, but it doesn't change the fact that Surfer wouldn't do so. It's not in him.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/SilverSurferAnnual07_29-1.jpg


Quit running from their direct confrontations in blood and thunder.
Wait so your one example proves that Thor's willing to kill in cold blood? In that case, Surfer "killed" a beaten and helpless Mephisto at one point(it turned out Meph faked his death, but Surfer didn't know that at the time).

And you're saying that all the writers who've written Thor vs Hulk, Wonder Man, or Firelord as well as the writer who had Thor admit that Surfer nearly killed with a warning blast don't cut it and you will ignore all of it and write all of it off. Who's trying to throw out more evidence?

Thor was insane at the time. That's not a reflection of his resolve in a normal state.

Hasn't Thor given up the power of the Runes and the Odin Power?

Sure he would. He even commented on how he would enjoy nothing more than killing Thanos, but without Thanos the universe would be destroyed.

He fixed his board he didn't heal himself. Fixing his board is what Surfer illustrated the distinction between them. Morg destroys things, Surfer can fix things.

I'm not running, I'm countering it with everything else about both characters.

Originally posted by Enyalus
I can.

Try enlargening it.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Try enlargening it.
LOL. I see your point.

I'm a fan of both characters, and knows the extent of their abilities. Their both evenly matched but I would give the slim edge to Thor in overall power.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait so your one example proves that Thor's willing to kill in cold blood? In that case, Surfer "killed" a beaten and helpless Mephisto at one point(it turned out Meph faked his death, but Surfer didn't know that at the time).

And you're saying that all the writers who've written Thor vs Hulk, Wonder Man, or Firelord as well as the writer who had Thor admit that Surfer nearly killed with a warning blast don't cut it and you will ignore all of it and write all of it off. Who's trying to throw out more evidence?

Thor was insane at the time. That's not a reflection of his resolve in a normal state.

Hasn't Thor given up the power of the Runes and the Odin Power?

Sure he would. He even commented on how he would enjoy nothing more than killing Thanos, but without Thanos the universe would be destroyed.

He fixed his board he didn't heal himself. Fixing his board is what Surfer illustrated the distinction between them. Morg destroys things, Surfer can fix things.

I'm not running, I'm countering it with everything else about both characters. My point has always been that the Surfer has had his mercy cost him in the very same battle against Skaar.

I am not saying to ignore it at all. I don't like ignoring anything. It is certainly admissible as is blood and thunder. We saw them both going all out on each other since this and it clearly showed Thor to be the Surfer's superior.

He has always had the same battle fervor. Look at his battles with the Hulk while quite sane. He loses himself in the midst of battle despite being sane or insane.

To return to life and he couldn't be written at those power levels. The only reason he gave up the odinpower was to fix his hammer to save Sif's life. The reason the Surfer wanted to give up his pc was just to give it up not to save anyone's life.

Surfer wouldn't have done so. Like I said he even lets brutal killers like Morg off the hook. 99 percent of the time he lets them live, despite their transgressions.

I disagree. I feel he healed his board along with himself. They do represent polar opposites and for that reason and the Surfer's versatility and experience he got the win over the brutal Morg.

When you cry pis that's called running.

You still haven't mentioned any feats comparing to the godblast thus conceding Thor's superiority in overall power.

Originally posted by quanchi112
My point has always been that the Surfer has had his mercy cost him in the very same battle against Skaar.

I am not saying to ignore it at all. I don't like ignoring anything. It is certainly admissible as is blood and thunder. We saw them both going all out on each other since this and it clearly showed Thor to be the Surfer's superior.

He has always had the same battle fervor. Look at his battles with the Hulk while quite sane. He loses himself in the midst of battle despite being sane or insane.

To return to life and he couldn't be written at those power levels. The only reason he gave up the odinpower was to fix his hammer to save Sif's life. The reason the Surfer wanted to give up his pc was just to give it up not to save anyone's life.

Surfer wouldn't have done so. Like I said he even lets brutal killers like Morg off the hook. 99 percent of the time he lets them live, despite their transgressions.

I disagree. I feel he healed his board along with himself. They do represent polar opposites and for that reason and the Surfer's versatility and experience he got the win over the brutal Morg.

When you cry pis that's called running.

You still haven't mentioned any feats comparing to the godblast thus conceding Thor's superiority in overall power.
And Thor's had his mercy cost him plenty also. You honestly think that Thor's never found himself getting nailed because he turned his back on an oppoent that he thought was all but beaten?

Wasn't actually going all out, made evident by the fact Surfer jumped off his board. Surfer's got better showings against Hulk, Wonder Man, and Firelord. All of them were portrayed as being right on par with Thor, and all of them were portrayed as being less powerful than the Surfer.

Thor gave up his hammer to Masterson so he could settle down with Sif.

Sure he would have. And as I pointed out, he "killed" Mephisto.

Surfer specifically mentioned healing the board as demonstrating the difference. He didn't say anything about healing himself(except in the round about way of healing his board as an extension of himself).

No that's called following the rules. If you can't debate within a structure... well that's your hang up. Whining because the rule exist and is in effect won't change the fact that it IS and DOES.

I haven't conceded anything, I already covered it...


Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh Thor's hammer definitely has it's advantages(such as a higher capacity to absorb energy), I just don't think power output is one of them. I mean Thor's damaged an EXTREMELY weakened Galactus with his Godblast, but then again Surfer's casually created a blackhole with his energy discharge(which kinda implies a blast on par with a super nova). I have a hard time crediting Thor's feat as being outright more impressive given some of Galactus's low showings and his occasional difficulties with magic.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Surfer isn't even smart enough to beat his opponent into submission when he has the upper hand. Surfer = the more powerful monologuer.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because it's a debate forum, damn near everything is up for debate . I disagree.

Originally posted by Mindset
I disagree.
Well start a thread .

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because it's a debate forum, damn near everything is up for debate .

disgustfist