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Batman with 2 day prep
spidey no prep
full potential
current versions
fight in New York City on the brooklyn bridge

Dick Grayson? Assuming he has the batcave I'm sure he could come up with something. He has prep'd for Slade.

Batman doesn't need prep to beat Spider-Man.

You're right, he needs a miracle.

Originally posted by Mindset
You're right, he needs a miracle.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Dick Grayson? Assuming he has the batcave I'm sure he could come up with something. He has prep'd for Slade. Poll says Bruce.
Bruce devistates him with prep.

Originally posted by Juntai
Poll says Bruce. Bruce devistates him with prep. Cool. He also said current so that's why I assumed this was Grayson.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Batman doesn't need prep to beat Spider-Man. Wayne or Dick, assume they met Spider-Man straight up without any prep, how in your opinion would they take the majority?

Lots of explosive batterangs and batkicks.

Originally posted by Mindset
You're right, he needs a miracle.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Lots of explosive batterangs and batkicks. Yea well Batman's kicks shouldn't even phase Spider-Man. Batarangs? Would never connect either.

Unless of course this is a comic book and PIS is involved.

Spidey Sense > Bat

Bats beats up Spidey just like Wolverine, Cap, Daredevil and other high level martial artists all do. Peter needs to train and get some skills.

Except they don't.

And Wolverine and Cap > Batman

Originally posted by Mshinu
Bats beats up Spidey just like Wolverine, Cap, Daredevil and other high level martial artists all do. Peter needs to train and get some skills.

Are you implying that Wolverine = Batman?

Batman is a human, a tough s.o.b human, and a god of martial arts, but still, a human.

Wolverine have physical abilities that gives him the possibility to go against the Hulk. They're not in the same weight class at all.

I mean, no disrecptect for the Bat, a kick ass hero, btw. I gives him a win over DareDevil anyday of the week! But he can't compete with Wolverine.


And Wolverine beat Spidey!

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Are you implying that Wolverine = Batman?

Batman is a human, a tough s.o.b human, and a god of martial arts, but still, a human.

Wolverine have physical abilities that gives him the possibility to go against the Hulk. They're not in the same weight class at all.

I mean, no disrecptect for the Bat, a kick ass hero, btw. I gives him a win over DareDevil anyday of the week! But he can't compete with Wolverine.


And Wolverine beat Spidey! It's about effectiveness.. . .on panel, Batman is easily in the class of Wolverine or Cap.
Wolverine has went toe to toe with Hulk.
Batman has done it with Mongul, Metallo, Grundy, etc etc etc.

Now, as always, I expect the claims of PIS and all, but it's no different than Hulk NOT grabbing Wolverine or Cap, smothering their torso with his giant hand and launching them at the moon.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Are you implying that Wolverine = Batman?

Batman is a human, a tough s.o.b human, and a god of martial arts, but still, a human.

Wolverine have physical abilities that gives him the possibility to go against the Hulk. They're not in the same weight class at all.

I mean, no disrecptect for the Bat, a kick ass hero, btw. I gives him a win over DareDevil anyday of the week! But he can't compete with Wolverine.


And Wolverine beat Spidey!

Hey I totally agree with you, cept Daredevil vs Bats is hell of a good fight because of the radar sense.

Bruce wins, prep or not.
Dick could also take a majority from Spider-Man with prep, and he'd get some wins without it.

Bruce is Cap, basically, only much smarter. And the only reason he would lose to Wolverine is because of the healing factor.

Originally posted by Juntai
it's no different than Hulk NOT grabbing Wolverine or Cap, smothering their torso with his giant hand and launching them at the moon.

i would so buy that comic.

Batman.

Originally posted by grimify
Bruce wins, prep or not.
Dick could also take a majority from Spider-Man with prep, and he'd get some wins without it. Fail.

Originally posted by SamZED
Fail.

Yah, because Spider-Man is sooo impressive vs human MA's.

Oh wait, nope.

Originally posted by grimify
Yah, because Spider-Man is sooo impressive vs human MA's.

Oh wait, nope. Yeah because for people that are familliar with the character its a common knowledge that he holds back a lot when he fights people without super durability, heck even when he fights people that ARE superdurable he still holds back. As for Spider-man not being impressive against human MAs - knocking out DD with a single punch with zero efforts, owning the living crap outta Kindpin without getting tagged once or pwning a few dozen ninja without getting a scratch seems pretty impressive to me, especially concidering that Pete was holding back. No prep, Spider-man shoves batrang up Batman's ass while reading newspaper and drinking coffee.

Spidey wins even with prep. You are forgetting Spidey is a bigger genuis than hank Pym, Spidey can think of things on the spot. Spidey wins with minor difficulty.

Originally posted by Peterlane
Spidey wins even with prep. You are forgetting Spidey is a bigger genuis than hank Pym, Spidey can think of things on the spot. Spidey wins with minor difficulty.

Wait.. what??

I think that he's talking about that time when Pym said that "some kid is so much smarter than me".
But Spidey isn't smarter than Pym, he's POTENTIALLY smarter but he doesn't have the time to study science to get on Hank's level because he's too busy being Spider-man.

Spidey even gets stomped by Rhino these days....

When did he fight Rhino? Last I saw them fight Spider-man koed him without even looking at him.
Also if Rhino stops jobbing he'd be one tough motherf@#er. Can lift 90 tons and run 80 mph.

Bat man wins with prep.

Such a biased thread.

Originally posted by SamZED
When did he fight Rhino? Last I saw them fight Spider-man koed him without even looking at him.


http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7668/sunlimited0605aq5.jpg

Anyway Spidey is a good character but with without proper fighting skills he will keep getting his arse handed to him by street lvlers as well as the Rhino.

That book is few years old and was a failed attempt to make Rhino look like he's a real threat. Spider-man's kicked Rhino's ass like 50 times with zero efforts yet you post this scan to prove a point? Stop trying to make Parker look weak by using his bad showings, that'd work for any hero.
THIS is how his fights with Rhino usually go (dont mind the language)
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/2159/pwj130016trans.jpg

Spider-man doesn't need no more skills than he already has to beat streetlevelers without superdurability no matter how well trained they are I dont care if their master was Chuck Norris himself, people like Batman do not stand a SLIGHTEST chance in a no prep fight against Spider-man EVEN if he's holding back unless some serious PIS is involved..

Originally posted by Mindset
Cap > Batman He may be the slight physical superior. Overall, I'd say Batman's superior to Cap. Wolverine is superior to both.

Originally posted by SamZED
pider-man doesn't need no more skills than he already has to beat streetlevelers without superdurability no matter how well trained they are I dont care if their master was Chuck Norris himself, people like Batman do not stand a SLIGHTEST chance in a no prep fight against Spider-man EVEN if he's holding back unless some serious PIS is involved..

He is very good at holding back at least considering all the beatings he gets from Cap etc....

Your sarcasm is misplaced here. When he fights Cap he doesn't simply hold back, he doesn't want to fight at all because he admires him, that would be like fighting his own father, ofcourse he'd hold back more than ever before. Pete's punched a hole in Ironman's mask. In a what if Spider-man punched THROUGH some guy's head and the guy was wearing an armour too. Pete can lift a tank over his head but you think he wont be able to knock out Batman or Cap?

Originally posted by SamZED
Pete can lift a tank over his head but you think he wont be able to knock out Batman or Cap?

Of course he could if he was skilled enough to connect.. I guess he lets all his strikes be blocked by Cap`s shield on purpose too huh?

i dont know i have seen bats take uber lvl punches that exceed the 100 ton mark quiet easily in the comics. the bat suit is an exceptional piece of armor/costume especially the head and chest area have some real good protection.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Of course he could if he was skilled enough to connect.. I guess he lets all his strikes be blocked by Cap`s shield on purpose too huh? lol so you're saying that after FIGHTING thousands of armed thugs, ninjas, robots, cyborgs, all kinds of monsters and supervillains for 10 years he doesn't have the skill to punch an opponent who is slower, weaker, less agile and has worse reflexes than Spidey because Pete doesnt have ma training? lol you make it sound like ma training is green lantern's ring or something.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
He may be the slight physical superior. Overall, I'd say Batman's superior to Cap. Wolverine is superior to both. They are equals in everything except stamina.

Cap > Bat

Originally posted by SamZED
lol so you're saying that after FIGHTING thousands of armed thugs, ninjas, robots, cyborgs, all kinds of monsters and supervillains for 10 years he doesn't have the skill to punch an opponent who is slower, weaker, less agile and has worse reflexes than Spidey because Pete doesnt have ma training? lol you make it sound like ma training is green lantern's ring or something. Report to the Spiderman vs Karate Kid thread and find out.

Originally posted by Mindset
They are equals in everything except stamina.

Cap > Bat And intelligence, and gadgets/weapons.

which make Bat > Cap.

And Batman has proven his stamina, while not quite as limitless as Caps, is enough to keep him going for days without rest.

Originally posted by Juntai
And intelligence, and gadgets/weapons.

which make Bat > Cap.

And Batman has proven his stamina, while not quite as limitless as Caps, is enough to keep him going for days without rest. Yea, Bats doesn't have a better fighters IQ.

The gadgets that will be ineffective, for the most part, against Spiderman?

Cap > Bats

Originally posted by SamZED
lol so you're saying that after FIGHTING thousands of armed thugs, ninjas, robots, cyborgs, all kinds of monsters and supervillains for 10 years he doesn't have the skill to punch an opponent who is slower, weaker, less agile and has worse reflexes than Spidey because Pete doesnt have ma training? lol you make it sound like ma training is green lantern's ring or something.

I don`t have to believe anything, Cap Wolvie and others have put him on his ass repeatedly. Fact. His homegrown style is simply not good enough.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, Bats doesn't have a better fighters IQ.

The gadgets that will be ineffective, for the most part, against Spiderman?

Cap > Bats
Yes he does, they might be equal when it comes to terms of thinking and strategizing the flow of CQC, but Batman at the same time is counting all variables and intangibles of environment, etc, shown on a consistant basis. Every breath Batman takes is strategized to near-perfection.

Really, how does Spidey do if Batman EMP's his brain?
He's got that in his arsenal, even without prep.
Does he .. . dodge it?

And in this thread, Batman has 2 full days to prepare for this fight.
Batman's taken on Superman with less.

Firelord....

Originally posted by Juntai
Yes he does, they might be equal when it comes to terms of thinking and strategizing the flow of CQC, but Batman at the same time is counting all variables and intangibles of environment, etc, shown on a consistant basis. Every breath Batman takes is strategized to near-perfection.

Really, how does Spidey do if Batman EMP's his brain?
He's got that in his arsenal, even without prep.
Does he .. . dodge it?

And in this thread, Batman has 2 full days to prepare for this fight.
Batman's taken on Superman with less. I don't know why I expected you to know what, 'for the most part', means.

Yea, I wasn't talking about this thread, I was replying to a post that was trying to show Batman can beat Spiderman because Cap and Wolverine have.

Batmans stamina will put him in peak shape for days of fighting with out rest? Based on what........sounds like bull shit to me

Originally posted by Mshinu
I don`t have to believe anything, Cap Wolvie and others have put him on his ass repeatedly. Fact. His homegrown style is simply not good enough. Hulk has been beaten by streetlevelers many times. Fact. That proves ma skills >>> Hulk right? Plus what does Wolverine have to do here? Wolverine wont get a hole in his head if Spider-man punches him, Cap on the other hand will.
Believe or not I dont care, but you couldnt give a single reason to support your point, all you said was "Cap beat Spider-man before" yay. Spider-man beat Firelord before, by your logic that makes him herald level.
Lets do math. Ill put this simple.
Spider-man vs Captain America.
rules: (no PIS, no CIS, non-holding back Spider-man who doesn't give a crap that he's fighting a living legend blah blah the hero of blah blah)
strength: Spider-man
speed: Spider-man
agility: Spider-man
reflexes: Spider-man
durability: Spider-man
skills: Captain America. (Yippie!)
Winner: Spider-man 10/10 ok 9/10 if Spider-man suddenly dies from a heart attack)

Originally posted by Juntai
Report to the Spiderman vs Karate Kid thread and find out. Dont know much about the guy but they said he can break "DC adamantium", wonder how many years of ma training it would take for Cap to do that.

Originally posted by SamZED
Believe or not I dont care, but you couldnt give a single reason to support your point, all you said was "Cap beat Spider-man before" yay.

Cap has totally dominated spidey in h2h more than once, even upgraded armored versions. You can preach on about his strenght and speed all you like but this is what has happened on panel. Spidey is a kid and get schooled by daddy Cap 10/10. Same with uncle Bats if he has prep.

Wolverine is a very bad example to uses as a cases for batman beating spiderman. Wolverine is physically superhuman in ever area. He never been suggested as anything but that in any on pannel comic story line. He also posses a healing factor, inhuman levels of durability aside from his adamtium skeleton.

Capt though better example then Wolverine is still not a good example for batman cases. Capt is the next step in human evolution, it impossible for any human to reach his physical level through training.

Originally posted by SamZED
lol so you're saying that after FIGHTING thousands of armed thugs, ninjas, robots, cyborgs, all kinds of monsters and supervillains for 10 years he doesn't have the skill to punch an opponent who is slower, weaker, less agile and has worse reflexes than Spidey because Pete doesnt have ma training? lol you make it sound like ma training is green lantern's ring or something.

Remember when Spidey went to Gotham and rounded up Bats villains easily, without prep. Yeh end thread

bet you bats was pissed that he was shown up he probably started planning on how to take out pete since he is overpowered and bats gets jealous of such ppl.

aside from that i dont see bats beating spidey with his standard gear. aside from PIS/CIS spidey shouldnt lose to bats unless we use spidey's kryptonite which is MA fighters..

giving bats 2 days prep he can probably pull out some gadgets without going overboard and calling in the batplane to take out spidey.

but if bats doesnt know anything about spidey i dont think he could properly prep for him.

i still give it to spidey 7/10 times.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Cap has totally dominated spidey in h2h more than once, even upgraded armored versions. You can preach on about his strenght and speed all you like but this is what has happened on panel. Spidey is a kid and get schooled by daddy Cap 10/10. Same with uncle Bats if he has prep. Same with uncle Ben if they ever fought lol ok I admit it, you win. If Spider-man was holding back, doubting his every move while fighting a man he admires since his childhood he would lose to Cap. But that hardly gives Cap any credit.
If Spidey fights without holding back Cap gets dropped on his ass in the first two seconds of the fight if he's lucky, if he's not he gets a hole in his head. Same with Batman.
Fact #1 Spider-man can punch his head off.
Fact #2 Parker has every advantage over him to do that, except for the skill.
Fact #3 If you think that single Cap's advantage is gonna stop Spider-man from punching him in the face you simply need to read more Spider-man books or at least check his respect thread because you knowledge of what he can do is clearly limited by his bad showings.
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/9929/feat15skills1mt5.jpg
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2706/feat15skills2qe6.jpg
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/7592/feat15skills4ot7.jpg
Me thinks that if Pete can beat the crap outta hundred warriors with guns and swords without getting cut or shot ONCE he sure as hell is skilled enough to punch Steve or Bruce in the face and that's all it take if he's not pulling his punch.

Originally posted by SamZED
Me thinks that if Pete can beat the crap outta hundred warriors with guns and swords without getting cut or shot ONCE he sure as hell is skilled enough to punch Steve or Bruce in the face and that's all it take if he's not pulling his punch.

Look it does not matter if he pulls his punch or not because he has been shown repeatedly UNABLE TO CONNECT with Cap`s face. Master h2h combatants read spidey like a book anticipating his moves no matter how strong or fast he is, knowing his moves before he does himself. They block or dodge his attacks and smacks him up good once they get close and personal not giving him opportunity to counter. Like someone stated, trained martial artists seem to be Parkers kryptonite, he has little to no defense against them.

Beating up large numbers of armed warriors without getting hurt? Please any top tier MA in comics must have done this at some point.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Look it does not matter if he pulls his punch or not because he has been shown repeatedly UNABLE TO CONNECT with Cap`s face. Master h2h combatants read spidey like a book anticipating his moves no matter how strong or fast he is, knowing his moves before he does himself. They block or dodge his attacks and smacks him up good once they get close and personal not giving him opportunity to counter. Like someone stated, trained martial artists seem to be Parkers kryptonite, he has little to no defense against them.

Beating up large numbers of armed warriors without getting hurt? Please any top tier MA in comics must have done this at some point.
117? Nope, they haven't. And just HOW does it not matter? If he's pulling his punches it means he's HOLDING BACK, fights carefully making sure his attacks aren't too strong because he doesn't want to seriously injure his opponent. You're saying that doesn't matter? That gives Cap a big, no a HUGE advantage that he wouldn't have had in a fight against bloodlusted Spider-man. Its easier to block his attacks, its easier to anticipate them. So just stop bringing their previous fights as examples, they only prove that Cap can hold his own against Spider-man who's fighting at like 20% of his actual abilities. And all that blocking and anticipation works great.. in theory. When it comes to fighting it is the speed reflexes and strength advantage that matters the most. Seriously, this whole debate is RIDICULOS. This is basically me saying that Spider-man wins because he has EVERY possible physical advantage over Cap, and you saying that despite all his advantages Spider-man doesn't have THE EXPERIENCE to connect ONCE. Doesn't that sound ridiculos to you?
Hell Parker WITHOUT his Spider powers is an experienced fighter.
In this scan he lost his powers.
http://i072.radikal.ru/0901/33/fdc510de1f1f.jpg
And you're saying this guy doesn't have what it takes to connect?
http://s47.radikal.ru/i115/0901/1d/f8157694782d.jpg
And once he does it's either this (if Cap is lucky):
http://s46.radikal.ru/i112/0901/9c/25c4d1edb317.jpg
Or this if he he's not lucky and if Spider-man's bloodlusted:
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6927/whatifbackinblack024.png

Originally posted by SamZED
so you're saying that after FIGHTING thousands of armed thugs, ninjas, robots, cyborgs, all kinds of monsters and supervillains for 10 years he doesn't have the skill to punch an opponent who is slower, weaker, less agile and has worse reflexes than Spidey because Pete doesnt have ma training? lol you make it sound like ma training is green lantern's ring or something.

Originally posted by SamZED
117? Nope, they haven't. And just HOW does it not matter? If he's pulling his punches it means he's HOLDING BACK, fights carefully making sure his attacks aren't too strong because he doesn't want to seriously injure his opponent. You're saying that doesn't matter?


Try reading what I post. He has been unable to CONNECT. It doesn`t matter if he pulls his punches or not if all he hits is air or an unbreakable shield. Pulling your punches does not make your strikes slower or less accurate for anyone who has even a little experience.



Wrong. Skilled fighters hit many times harder, last much longer and are much harder to hit than untrained ones.




Cap`s skill > Spidey`s physical advantages so, yeah.
Spidey`s experience is not worth much, he has stated himself he relies on instinct. Cap tried to tell him the truth, inctinct gets you killed.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Try reading what I post. He has been unable to CONNECT. It doesn`t matter if he pulls his punches or not if all he hits is air or an unbreakable shield. Pulling your punches does not make your strikes slower or less accurate for anyone who has even a little experience. Yes it does, It doesn't matter HOW experienced you are, if while fighting you're AFFRAID you might seriosuly hurt your opponent and pulling your punches to avoid it that makes your attacks many times less effective and slow.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Wrong. Skilled fighters hit many times harder, last much longer and are much harder to hit than untrained ones. Yeah, in real life superior fighting skills is a good advantage if you're fighting a stronger and faster opponent. But not so when it comes to people with superpowers where gaps between speed and strength can be HUGE. In our case IT IS the speed and strength advantage that matter more than training. Cap's skills give him an advantage but not big enough to make a difference. Here's a rough example. If I had say Quicksilver's speed and reflexes and Bane's strength and I had to fight Batman H2H. Give me a day to practice with my powers and I'd rip Batman's head off before he could do anything no matter how skilled he is. So Cap training is great but means jack if he's fighting someone who can kill him with a punch and has every possible advantage and has 10 years of fighting experience to make sure he connects at least once.


Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap`s skill > Spidey`s physical advantages so, yeah.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Spidey`s experience is not worth much, he has stated himself he relies on instinct. Cap tried to tell him the truth, inctinct gets you killed. Cap doesn't have spider powers, he cant tell, so no, instinct wont get Pete killed, in fact if it wasnt for instinct Parker would've been dead many years ago. You're claiming that Spider-man wont be able to hit Cap ONCE, while im proving that he can. The fact that Im forced to prove SOMETHING is funny because he has EVERY advantage over Cap. It is YOU who's supposed to try and prove that Cap is gonna be able to last 3 seconds without getting his head punched off by a stronger, faster, more agile opponent who has better reflexes and spider sense to rely on. So if you wanna keep this debate - go a head, but this time show me proofs that Cap has speed advantage big enough to avoid getting hit ONCE cause im calling bs on this. And dont bring up their fights again because they prove jack, just random proofs that he's too fast and skilled for Spider-man to connect ONCE.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Try reading what I post. He has been unable to CONNECT. It doesn`t matter if he pulls his punches or not if all he hits is air or an unbreakable shield. Pulling your punches does not make your strikes slower or less accurate for anyone who has even a little experience.



Wrong. Skilled fighters hit many times harder, last much longer and are much harder to hit than untrained ones.




Cap`s skill > Spidey`s physical advantages so, yeah.
Spidey`s experience is not worth much, he has stated himself he relies on instinct. Cap tried to tell him the truth, inctinct gets you killed. Lol, I've been reading your posts and have been wanting to say something about them for a while now but I've been too busy. You haven't really shown anything but one sided scans. "Cap and Logan have put him on his ass repeatedly", show's you don't read any Spiderman or know what you are even saying. Two can play the one sided game.

Did you read when Logan got tossed out the window? Or when he was webbed up? Or secret wars?

You want to bring in only low showings? I'll bring in my high showings, he beat Thor, someone who has been fighting for a long time.

Also MA skills do not directly equal fighting ability, that thought alone is absurd. MA is NOT the only way to fight, and I'm saying that as a trained fighter. Fighting "skills" only bridge the gap somewhat, but if the physical skills are too steep they don't matter. The world's best fighter doesn't beat the world's largest elephant. That's common sense. Not to mention you're really over-hyping MA skills, there are black belts that get dropped LOADS of times by people on the streets because the MA people haven't been in a fight before and have only been training in a dojo, experience matters more, and fighting is about surviving. I hope you do realize that comic crossovers are going to try to make the characters look closer match, and that means making the stronger character much weaker (not using his abilities, Precog, or WEBBING (something he has) in a fight. I've been having this debate for about half a decade now, I know what I'm on about.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yes it does, It doesn't matter HOW experienced you are, if while fighting you're AFFRAID you might seriosuly hurt your opponent and pulling your punches to avoid it that makes your attacks many times less effective and slow.

Wrong, a fighter with a little training can easily pull his punches without sacrificing speed and accutracy. Light to none contact sparring a very common in in several sports. It is very easy to learn even on your own and spidey has lots of practice in it.



Wrong again. High level MA characters with human attributes does quite well against superhumans in comics. Especially aganinst untrained ones.



Quickilver is irrelevant to this topic.



Cap does not let him get that punch. Also 10 years of fighting like spidey actually limits him to a certain level since he relies on instinct and never develop solid fighting basics. In other words he reinforces bad habits and wasteful moves as well as never learning to mask his intentions brodcasted by his body language. Which is why good fighters HAS beaten him, ARE beating him and WILL continue to beat him unless he improves himself.



True, but if he learned to use it better and even ignote it at times when fighting he would do better. All good fighters know how to harness their instincts instead of being controlled by them.



Cap has put Spidey on his ass consistently. Clearly dominating him as if he were a little child just by the use of his skills. Live with it. Spiderman`s stats does not magically change this FACT. Your logic is seriously flawed.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Did you read when Logan got tossed out the window? Or when he was webbed up? Or secret wars?

What of it? Wolvie gets hurt all the time



Fair enough, however Spidey can still be knocked out by someone with human range strength and who knows how to punch. His attacks can still be blocked/evaded, at least in comics.



Black belts are not worth anything, you have six yers old parading around with them now.

Anyway MA characters in the comics tend to do vell against superpowered ones, even outside crossovers.

Originally posted by Mshinu


What of it? Wolvie gets hurt all the time



Fair enough, however Spidey can still be knocked out by someone with human range strength and who knows how to punch.



Black belts are not worth anything, you have six yers old parading around with them now.

Anyway MA characters in the comics tend to do vell against superpowered ones, even outside crossovers. Well at least this won't become *too* bad, hopefully.

You were the one saying Wolverine was his "daddy" or something, I thought you had read those issues to show that isn't the case.

It is possible, but even then he his highly durable. A man did punch him and Spiderman turned his face to avoid breaking the guys hand. He tanlges and takes hits from guys like Venom, Carnage, and Ock. I just don't see Cap doing more damage. Or being faster.

True, but "trained" fighers are even more vulnerable than super humans and even the best figher alive can be dropped by an unskilled guy given the right situation. The training gives you the tools to move your body effectively, it does NOT make you a superhuman.

y do people keep using real world instances to compare and contrast between comic book stories. Fact is MA skill is just as much a "superpower" as any other skill in a comic book and more often than not evens the battlefield when fighting an unskilled opponent

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You were the one saying Wolverine was his "daddy" or something, I thought you had read those issues to show that isn't the case.

He IS spidey`s daddy, dominating him just like Cap does. Unlike Cap he can afford to risk getting hit by him.



Peter said Cap`s punch felt like a pint sized a-bomb, seeing stars. A few of those would likely put him out.



True, but what a trained person can do can seem superhuman to the general public. In the comics it even DOES make some characters superhuman with chi-amping and whatnot

Originally posted by Sin I AM
y do people keep using real world instances to compare and contrast between comic book stories. Fact is MA skill is just as much a "superpower" as any other skill in a comic book and more often than not evens the battlefield when fighting an unskilled opponent On Karate Kid's Level or Akuma's level when you are shooting ki blasts and such out (or bursting islands), I would be more inclined to agree. However we compare worldly martial arts and lifting feats to the real world because comics (especially on street level) revolve around real world. These are Martial artists who specialize in things like boxing and judo. These aren't superhuman martial arts. And the real advantage of MA comes to when you make your own style out of it. Something Spiderman has. (Although he could benefit from some MA training).

All of these MA characters have had trouble with "plain ol' humans" as well, so that argument goes both ways.

Originally posted by Mshinu
He IS spidey`s daddy, dominating him just like Cap does. Unlike Cap he can afford to risk getting hit by him.



Peter said Cap`s punch felt like a pint sized a-bomb, seeing stars. A few of those would likely put him out.



True, but what a trained person can do can seem superhuman to the general public. In the comics it even DOES make some characters superhuman with chi-amping and whatnot You must not hvae read what I said, Spiderman webbing Logan up, tossing him out of a window, and smacking him away doesn't making him his "daddy" those fights are going to be made "even" at best. At least you can admit that Cap won't bea ble to afford being hit by him. Why do you want to continue to play the featwar game? He has beaten people these MA's haven't. (Why is this about Cap and Spiderman now that I think about it?)

Coming from a person who has taken hits from guys like Hulk, Carnage, Thing, etc. I'd doubt it.

Guys like Karate Kid and SF characters I'd agree. Shin Akuma has jumped in space and broken a comet, I'd completely agree he stomps Spiderman. These guys have human limitations, and a lot of the "MA feats" we see people do (like breaking bricks), is really just physics in the works. When you do MA yourself you see how such things are possible (like using curved bricks).

Originally posted by Sin I AM
y do people keep using real world instances to compare and contrast between comic book stories. Fact is MA skill is just as much a "superpower" as any other skill in a comic book and more often than not evens the battlefield when fighting an unskilled opponent

I am inclined to agree with this. Comic book MA skill works pretty much like any other special power, and it is one Spiderman has problems countering.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I am inclined to agree with this. Comic book MA skill works pretty much like any other special power, and it is one Spiderman has problems countering. How so? Any punch that a lower MA throws is really the same old haymaker that an untrained character throws, many times readers assume is more than it is. But truly the tactics is where it is at, and Batman and Spiderman both have sound tactics.

Spiderman has beaten trained fighers, when he fights famous ones with big fanbases like these ones, they are going to make the fight look good on both sides. They could make a no name guy the master of all styles and he would lose pretty soundly. Spiderman beat the Dragon in his comics, a highly trained figher.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You must not hvae read what I said, Spiderman webbing Logan up, tossing him out of a window, and smacking him away doesn't making him his "daddy" those fights are going to be made "even" at best.


I believe those instances has been pretty well covered in a certain vs thread. No need to repeat it. At the very least Logan`s training closes the stat gap pretty well.



I am not playing that game, just pointing out Cap has put spidey on his ass and Peter has a problem handling skilled martial artists.
Anyway abc logic sucks.

Right, it should be about Batman, not Cap.



Breaking bricks are party tricks with little meaning in a fight. If you have any training you should know that.

Plenty of comic book characters below Karate Kid levelu uses MA efficiently against superhumans. It makes them hable to hang with them even if they do not posess other powers. You cannot bispute that fact.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
On Karate Kid's Level or Akuma's level when you are shooting ki blasts and such out (or bursting islands), I would be more inclined to agree. However we compare worldly martial arts and lifting feats to the real world because comics (especially on street level) revolve around real world. These are Martial artists who specialize in things like boxing and judo. These aren't superhuman martial arts. And the real advantage of MA comes to when you make your own style out of it. Something Spiderman has. (Although he could benefit from some MA training).

All of these MA characters have had trouble with "plain ol' humans" as well, so that argument goes both ways.


Well thats an inaccurate comparison then honey. Even basic skills that street-level martial artist do are leagues above what a real world MA can possibly achieve. You should take that outta the equation, someone made a comment earlier about a expert MA in the real world not being able to drop an elephant, yet im sure positive any street coul;d do it with a pressure point attack, i can name 10 off the top of my head. It simply bridges the gap, and in Parkers case eclipses his stats.

True Spiderman has hisd own style but its so basic, that experienced martial artists can easily counter it. I get tired of the "holding" back excuse, its gay. I personally think its a cop-out for him being "superhuman" and not being able to beat Cap, DD, Bullseye, Elektra, Iron Fist etc, etc etc...his style just isnt devastating enough.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
How so? Any punch that a lower MA throws is really the same old haymaker that an untrained character throws, many times readers assume is more than it is. But truly the tactics is where it is at, and Batman and Spiderman both have sound tactics.


Seriously, have you ever read a comic book fight where the physics of the fight was sound? MA works quite differently in the comics than in the real world.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
And the real advantage of MA comes to when you make your own style out of it. Something Spiderman has. (Although he could benefit from some MA training).


You benefit from making the style your own WHEN you have developed solid BASICS. Spidey does not have that.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I believe those instances has been pretty well covered in a certain vs thread. No need to repeat it. At the very least Logan`s training closes the stat gap pretty well.



I am not playing that game, just pointing out Cap has put spidey on his ass and Peter has a problem handling skilled martial artists.
Anyway abc logic sucks.

Right, it should be about Batman, not Cap.



Breaking bricks are party tricks with little meaning in a fight. If you have any training you should know that.

Plenty of comic book characters below Karate Kid levelu uses MA efficiently against superhumans. It makes them hable to hang with them even if they do not posess other powers. You cannot bispute that fact. Well I agree about the bricks meaning little. Logan's "training" (that he doesn't use often" doesn't bridge the gap, it is his Superman healing ability and skeletal system that carries the weight in his fights.

I have no problem with characters "hanging" with othes. They all "hang" with characters like Hulk, but that doesn't mean they can beat him.Originally posted by Mshinu
Seriously, have you ever read a comic book fight where the physics of the fight was sound? MA works quite differently in the comics than in the real world. Hmm, the gravity worked.

And no they aren't "vastly different" they still use pressure point attacks, nerve strickes, grappling, and pressure locks. They do it much better than you or I do, but things like equilibrium still come into play.


Originally posted by Mshinu
You benefit from making the style your own WHEN you have developed solid BASICS. Spidey does not have that. Basics such as proper stances (spiderman has perfect balance and equilibrium), things such as standing properly (corrected by above), basic application of practical movement? Learning the "basics" doesn't take long, you can drill a person for a few short weeks and they would have the bare basics down enough to survive, but the mastery of those abilities to the point where you can do them without thinking? That takes much, much longer.

Spiderman's body does NOT work and move like an average person therefore his movement doesn't need to mimic those, he just needs brushing up more more tactical type things, not saying he couldn't benefit from training, but seriously someone who has spent DECADES fighting doesn't have any basics? That's absurd.

I could take someone who has had to "survive" off of the streets without training and I could bet you he could beat someone "with MA training" who has had little to no fights, and I'd give it to that guy. Efficiency is where it counts and the better figher is the one who can consistently (or should conssitently) win, regardless of "skill" there are too many styles out there to say which ones are the best, they should flow together.Originally posted by Sin I AM
Well thats an inaccurate comparison then honey. Even basic skills that street-level martial artist do are leagues above what a real world MA can possibly achieve. You should take that outta the equation, someone made a comment earlier about a expert MA in the real world not being able to drop an elephant, yet im sure positive any street coul;d do it with a pressure point attack, i can name 10 off the top of my head. It simply bridges the gap, and in Parkers case eclipses his stats. Wow, elephant pressure points? I saw what you meant, but these characters STILL have far greater strength and speed than an average person, which accelerates the damage they do.

No, I was the one who made the comment, and I'm well aware about the difference between the human level MA and a Comic one, which is why I used the difference between an elephant and Spiderman, Spiderman could drop an elephant even easier than they could. His ability to drop a Comic MA is much greater than theirs is to drop him, and it does NOT eclipse far greater speed, more durabilitity, far greater strength, and precognition with 120 lb per millimeter tensile strength webbing that none of them can "break" with their strength. It doesn't really eclipse anything, it does allow them to "hang" with him however. If the physical gap was small say Logan's without healing, then I would be more inclined to agree.

Originally posted by Sin I AM
True Spiderman has hisd own style but its so basic, that experienced martial artists can easily counter it. I get tired of the "holding" back excuse, its gay. I personally think its a cop-out for him being "superhuman" and not being able to beat Cap, DD, Bullseye, Elektra, Iron Fist etc, etc etc...his style just isnt devastating enough. I'm sorry, but the basics work best, all of these characeters do "basic" punches and kicks, and realistically the basics work best because they don't create unnecessary movement, a super high spinning kick is a lot more ineffective than a kick to the side of the thigh, and the latter takes less effort.

Holding back excuse? That's what he does, and it's a part of his character. He doesn't really have to go "all out" anyways, and we've seen in a comic what happens when he does to guys like Kingpin (who are accomplished fighers, and even Stark upclose (although Stark would iwn here), not to mention how he performs against higher tiered characers (like Iron Man) CONSISTENTLY when he fights them, we can see the comparison.

Lastly none of these xxx beat xxx arguments are as valid on KMC because this is *not* a comic book, there is no plot device on here and none of the other silly things that get in the way like they do in comics. Put Batman vs Flash in a comic and Batman would drop him each and every time. Put him on here vs Flash and he loses in less time than it takes me to blink. Would that ever happen in a comic? No, not with two big name characters.

And when has he been unable to compete with those characters you mentioned (we are already talking about cap) Scans? Issue numbers?

I was reading the DD fight where he was hypnotized and he admitted he wouldn't be a match if Spiderman went all out, and he admitted the speed difference as well. Which is why I find it hard to trust a lot of members out there now, because many have been guilty in the past of lying, so when I read the issue myself I find a totally different story. So when you get the chance could you post scans and/or issues of the entire fight? I'd appreciate it greatly. But I have to go now.

Take care all, it's been fun.

Anyways.

Batman with prep still wins here.

Lol this has gone so off topic. I really do have to go though.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well I agree about the bricks meaning little. Logan's "training" (that he doesn't use often" doesn't bridge the gap, it is his Superman healing ability and skeletal system that carries the weight in his fights.

He is able to tag the spider mostly because of skill, like other MAists Pether has fought.




Actually gravity doesn`t work even remotely in comic book fights. A good fighter stays in contact with the ground so he can put his weight behind his strikes. In comics they do it on their tiptoes or flying trough the air. It is a fantasy world.




Learning the basics even remotely takes years. It is such training spidey needs before he can even think about matching Bats or Cap in skill.



Spiderman still has two arms and two feet so he can be taught like anyone else. He has just made some made some rough chipping and reinforced his bad habits. Why do you think any proper art spends 90% of the time on technique? The only reason it works is his superhuman stats and the spider sense.



Sure, someone who is used fo fighting will take a badly trained "ma guy" who has never taken a hit. What does that prove? The guys that get the better of Spidey are not badly trained. People with proper training and experience DO have an edge.

Styles haven`t really got anything to do with it since Peter has none.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Wrong, a fighter with a little training can easily pull his punches without sacrificing speed and accutracy. Light to none contact sparring a very common in in several sports. It is very easy to learn even on your own and spidey has lots of practice in it. Yeah, that's why he almost broke Flash Tompsons skull when he tried it for the first time, 'cause its so easy hitting someone without hurting him when you can turn a tank into a pancacke with your bare fists. Imagine for a second that you are (for some unknown crazy reason, not the point) fighting a 8 year old kid. And you're trying to knock him down with your punches without seriously hurting him. You think your punches and your fighting would be as effective and fast as if you just jumped at him and started hitting him with full force without caring if you seriously injure him or not?


Originally posted by Mshinu

Wrong again. High level MA characters with human attributes does quite well against superhumans in comics. Especially aganinst untrained ones. if that superhuman is a dumb brawler who just got his powers and knows crap about fighting. And even then it is the superior speed that counts the most, not skills. Spider-man on the other hand has years of fighting experience and a uniq fighting style that is perfecr for someone with powers like that. Rogers got skills but is just inferior to Spider-man. So he loses.


Originally posted by Mshinu

Quickilver is irrelevant to this topic. Did you even bother to read the post? That was an anology that proves - superior speed, strength, reflexes, agility, durability and years of fighting experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ma training.


Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap does not let him get that punch. Prove it. Spider-man is faster, Rogers can read his moves blah blah do whatever he wants but he he's not fast enough to counter every Spider-man's attack. So again, prove it.
Originally posted by Mshinu

Also 10 years of fighting like spidey actually limits him to a certain level since he relies on instinct and never develop solid fighting basics. In other words he reinforces bad habits and wasteful moves as well as never learning to mask his intentions brodcasted by his body language. shows how much you know. His fighting style uses ALL his supernatural abilities to the their fullest potential, that makes it a lot more effective than if he just studied, say karate.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Which is why good fighters HAS beaten him, ARE beating him and WILL continue to beat him unless he improves himself. a lot of words that are supported by nothing. Spider's last fight with Kingpin shows exactly how "effective" years of ma training against a guy with super powers. Cap can train a 100 more years for all I care, Parker is still gonna be superior to him in speed strength durability reflexes and as I already proved that's what matters the most.

Originally posted by Mshinu

True, but if he learned to use it better and even ignote it at times when fighting he would do better. All good fighters know how to harness their instincts instead of being controlled by them. Never argued that, but Spider-man is a different case. It so happens that during a fight his instinct works better than good fighter's coordination. Why ordinary ma fighters cant rely only on instincts? Because it could fail them. spidersense on the other hand would give Parker the safest and most effective options. That's why he can fight, run, jump around and even swing with his eyes closed. Guys like Cap during a fight are forced to find the best options while Spider-man just KNOWS it thanks to his ss.


Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap has put Spidey on his ass consistently. Clearly dominating him as if he were a little child just by the use of his skills. Live with it. Spiderman`s stats does not magically change this FACT. Your logic is seriously flawed. MY logic is flawed? Fact? If I start t debating the way you do i would sound like "Spider-man beat Firelord! Fact! Not listening nananana!" Unfortunately for you this is a vs forum, not a comicbook. Here we do not take into concideration things like "Spider-man would hold back, doubt himself or refuse to fight at all that's why Cap would win JUST like it happened in comics" its much simplier than that. Read the rules. No PIS no CIS. Spider-man doesn't care that he's fighting "the living legend" and doesn't hold back. Who wins? Lets see. Strength - spider-man, speed - spider-man, durability - sp.. oh do I really have to do this again. Its obviously that Spider-man is the winner. And 10/10 that is. Not even a challenge for him. So once again, stop pretending you didn't hear me. SHOW me RANDOM Captain America feats that PROVE that his skill makes him unhittable even when he's fighting a faster and a stronger opponent. No PIS no CIS. Just feats. I'll wait.

Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah, that's why he almost broke Flash Tompsons skull when he tried it for the first time, 'cause its so easy hitting someone without hurting him when you can turn a tank into a pancacke with your bare fists. Imagine for a second that you are (for some unknown crazy reason, not the point) fighting a 8 year old kid. And you're trying to knock him down with your punches without seriously hurting him. You think your punches and your fighting would be as effective and fast as if you just jumped at him and started hitting him with full force without caring if you seriously injure him or not?

As you said, the first time. It takes SOME training but it is easily learned. As for 8 year old kids I work with them all the time so I know exactly what you are talking about.




Spidey`s "style" does not remotely make full use of his powers. He would be much more effective if it did. He needs proper training to get the basics just like everyone else.




LOL it certanly does not prove an absolute statement like that.
Spiderman does not have Quicksilver`s speed anyway.



If it used his ablilties to the fullest he would not be beaten like he has been so many times by MAists with human range attributes. He HAS been beaten by them and all the stats in the world won`t change it. Since spidey is "better" it must either be because of skill, luck or PIS. I`ll leave it to you to decide wich.



Nah you did not.



Since he always KNOWS the best options why does he still LOOSE?



Cap`s wins are pretty consistent. Or is it PIS simply because spidey lost? All characters loose some time, wolvie gets beaten constantly by Sabretooth for instance. Taskmaster has smashed his shield in Cap`s face using his own style iirc even

And Spidey taking firelord is as much PIS as Wolvie surviving a nuke. Let`s not drop to that level.

Originally posted by SamZED

Did you even bother to read the post? That was an anology that proves - superior speed, strength, reflexes, agility, durability and years of fighting experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ma training.
Originally posted by Juntai
Report to the Spiderman vs Karate Kid thread and find out.

btw, the poll is hilarious, Peter stands little to no chance of winning in this scenario, and has almost as many votes.

spiderman..his spider sense would always keep him one step ahead of batman

plus since this is full potential, spiderman uses his super speed and super strength and super agility and punches batman's head off and wins in one hit.

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
spiderman..his spider sense would always keep him one step ahead of batman

plus since this is full potential, spiderman uses his super speed and super strength and super agility and punches batman's head off and wins in one hit. Batman has 2 days to prepare for the fight, it's fairly impossible for him to be steps ahead of Batman at that point.

Batman can easily use a motherbox that would render his durability far too much for Spiderman to contend with.

Batman has things in his arsenal if prepped that Spiderman simply would have no answer for.

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman has 2 days to prepare for the fight, it's fairly impossible for him to be steps ahead of Batman at that point.

Batman can easily use a motherbox that would render his durability far too much for Spiderman to contend with.

Batman has things in his arsenal if prepped that Spiderman simply would have no answer for.

and batman would be bringing a motherbox to fight spiderman? come now, batman preps for fights depending on his opponent. he doesn't go, oh oh oh..looky here...a motherbox.. i think i'll take it with me weeeee!!! while i'm at it, i think i'll bring this chunk of kriptonite, never know if spiderman is weak to it, and why not bring a batspray, a bat shark repalent spray, a bottle of milk and the morning paper while he's at it.

seriously your reasoning is stupid. just because he has it doesn't mean he'd be bringing it to the table all the time.

Originally posted by gogogadgetgo
and batman would be bringing a motherbox to fight spiderman? come now, batman preps for fights depending on his opponent. he doesn't go, oh oh oh..looky here...a motherbox.. i think i'll take it with me weeeee!!! while i'm at it, i think i'll bring this chunk of kriptonite, never know if spiderman is weak to it, and why not bring a batspray, a bat shark repalent spray, a bottle of milk and the morning paper while he's at it.

seriously your reasoning is stupid. just because he has it doesn't mean he'd be bringing it to the table all the time. The point is that he -can-, he's going to bring enough to gather the W.
He's prepped for Superman level foes in less time.
Every variable will be accounted for.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yea, you might as well throw Shin Akuma into that equation, throwing fireballs and breaking comets is more related to supernatural fighting ability that makes those kinds of characters superhuman not the case with the streets.

Originally posted by Mshinu
He is able to tag the spider mostly because of skill, like other MAists Pether has fought.
Oh they can tag him, but he has also been in fights with higher opposition untouched . Anybody can "tag" somebody, it's just the point of the matter the reason that whenever two characters fight it's a match is because it's a comic and they are going to show characters about even for the fanbases. Compare that to their actual histories and you'll see a difference. Cap has problems with Red Skull, whom Peter has taken out easily, DD has problems with Kingpin, who Spiderman smoked, and Batman had an issue with Bane and a Batman wannabe in the father son arc. Big muscular guy who was cutting up hookers.

One of Spiderman's Punches with decent acceleration are going to equal many of Caps.



Originally posted by Mshinu
Actually gravity doesn`t work even remotely in comic book fights. A good fighter stays in contact with the ground so he can put his weight behind his strikes. In comics they do it on their tiptoes or flying trough the air. It is a fantasy world.

I just meant what goes up goes down. You need gravity to have weight anyways.


Originally posted by Mshinu
Learning the basics even remotely takes years. It is such training spidey needs before he can even think about matching Bats or Cap in skill.

What kind of basics? People fight overseas in a relatively short amount of time, I know about it myself from experience. Basics in military fighting are like white belt... to the death.

Skill is how you apply something, how can someone who has been fighitng for decades have no application?

Originally posted by Mshinu
Spiderman still has two arms and two feet so he can be taught like anyone else. He has just made some made some rough chipping and reinforced his bad habits. Why do you think any proper art spends 90% of the time on technique? The only reason it works is his superhuman stats and the spider sense.

Meh, there is plenty of time spent on body conditioning and training. Bruce Lee said it himself. "Too many people spend their time on petty technique and not enough strengthening the mind and the body." Bottom line is that a mediocre heavyweight fighter will often trump a lightweight. Skill can only compensate for so much.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Sure, someone who is used fo fighting will take a badly trained "ma guy" who has never taken a hit. What does that prove? The guys that get the better of Spidey are not badly trained. People with proper training and experience DO have an edge.
I didn't say they were badly trained, just not experienced. They need both, but what do you consider good training? Whose to say what works at Ching Poo Flow's dojo works in an actual fight? Training for what? Real training is application.
Originally posted by Mshinu
Styles haven`t really got anything to do with it since Peter has none. Sure he does, do you know what a style is?

Originally posted by Juntai
The point is that he -can-, he's going to bring enough to gather the W.
He's prepped for Superman level foes in less time.
Every variable will be accounted for.

i get the point, he can, but would he? its like launching a nuke to kill an ant. OVERKILL...seriously, when has batman ever over over OVER preped like that?

he'd most likely stick with his little batarang toys and probably an exo skeleton to match strength and durability with spiderman.

and with spiderman having superspeed and spider sense, no way is batman tagging him.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
What kind of basics? People fight overseas in a relatively short amount of time, I know about it myself from experience. Basics in military fighting are like white belt... to the death.


Basics in h2h, not military training. Anyone who wants to really understand a MA needs at least a few years of getting the basics. THEN they can start really learning and make it their own. It is needed simply to get rid of bad habits, stiffness, wasteful movement etc. Without this one will only reach so far, it is like building a house on unsafe ground. It collapses easily.




They make it work but lack understanding of what they are doing. Someone trying to master h2h combat on his own just by getting into fights has as much chanse as the guy trying to figure brain surgery out without an education.



If skill is useless Bruce would not have practiced MA. He is a good example of a well trained person who can take on larger opponents actually.




If students at Ching Poo Flow`s cant defend themselves I think they need to find themselves a new Dojo... unless they are there just because of the cool name



Please, educate me

Originally posted by Mshinu


Basics in h2h, not military training. Anyone who wants to really understand a MA needs at least a few years of getting the basics. THEN they can start really learning and make it their own. It is needed simply to get rid of bad habits, stiffness, wasteful movement etc. Without this one will only reach so far, it is like building a house on unsafe ground. It collapses easily.
Spiderman won't have to worry about any stiffness based no his physiology and massive muscular and cardiovascular advantages. Military training does focus on h2h, just more meat and potatoes and more brutal.

Spiderman may move around a lot (part of his style) but so does every other comic character as well, if we look at their stats and bios and read their comics, we'll see they don't apply these "godly skills" like they are stated to most of the time. They really just do haymakers.

I do believe that mastery takes time and that your basics improve, but with Spiderman's physical ability it wouldn't take long, it didn't take me long either and before hand I was more than a match for most in my class on physical ability alone without using much of it or any previous know-how.



Originally posted by Mshinu
They make it work but lack understanding of what they are doing. Someone trying to master h2h combat on his own just by getting into fights has as much chanse as the guy trying to figure brain surgery out without an education.

I was just thinking about brain surgery, odd huh. The comparison is more like a person who has done surgeries without any training, and are more effective than the person who hasn't gone to the fancy school in the end.

Or an out of shape doctor trying to tell someone how to stay in shape vs an Olympic athlete. You need the know-how, but you accumulate that fast by "doing". Spiderman's style is unorthodox and harder to predict. Makes up for lack of "MA" training.

But furthermore MA training isn't directly equal to fighting skill. It can be several things, but it isn't all combat.

Originally posted by Mshinu
If skill is useless Bruce would not have practiced MA. He is a good example of a well trained person who can take on larger opponents actually.
He is also physically at a very high level, much higher than the average Joe, he can also do incredible physical things. These enhance his ability.



Originally posted by Mshinu
If students at Ching Poo Flow`s cant defend themselves I think they need to find themselves a new Dojo... unless they are there just because of the cool name There's a whole other discussion about how I feel about McDojo's and how a lot of the people training at them don't know what they are talking about.



Originally posted by Mshinu
Please, educate me 1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.


Since spiderman has great dexterity and has had much knowledge, fighting, pracitce, and aptidues in thousands of fights, I'm sure he has to have some skill, especially considering many of the people he fight overpower him in some way.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Spiderman won't have to worry about any stiffness based no his physiology and massive muscular and cardiovascular advantages. Military training does focus on h2h, just more meat and potatoes and more brutal.

He still has to worry about stiffness as in unnececary tensing of the muscles, something just about all untrained people do. One detail out of hundreds. And I know about military training, I used to be an infantry sergeant.



Cap is a good example of using his skill throwing a good haymaker. The reason he hits ungawdly HARD for a peak human is he got nearly perfect basics. MA is not about ungawdly techniques, it is about refining basics. Course in comics some can throw fireballs too..



Actually it is harder for people with super attributes to master the basics. It is way too easy just to rely on your speed or strength to do the job. A good student will improve faster than others tho.



True but he needs to study it first. If not he`ll spend a lifetime recreating medical science from scratch. Spidey has still not gotten the basics in any meaningful sense.



He still has not learned to mask his body language, Bats would read his moves like an open book.



Agreed. However if you train with a good instructor with the purpose of improving your fighting skill, it will be "pressure tested" to make sure it works. Nothing can totally prepare you for the first "real" fight however.



McDojos are a sad thing.



I see. I usually think of a style as a system of fighting defined by a few central concepts.



He is alive because of his speed, agility and spider sense. Sure he has some hard earned skills but they are not anywhere near where they could be. There are masters of hand to hand combat that could teach him. He looses to a lot of MAists because their skill more than compensates for him being stronger etc.

Originally posted by Juntai
The point is that he -can-, he's going to bring enough to gather the W.
He's prepped for Superman level foes in less time.
Every variable will be accounted for.

First off Superman is Gay all u need is Green jell-o and you win...prepping for superman is not impressive at all....Superman has almost all the powers you can think of and his main villian is Lex Luthor a Rich guy.... F*ck Superman he is a disgrace

One word -PUMA

Originally posted by weaponx510
First off Superman is Gay all u need is Green jell-o and you win...prepping for superman is not impressive at all....Superman has almost all the powers you can think of and his main villian is Lex Luthor a Rich guy.... F*ck Superman he is a disgrace

Quoted for ****ing truth

Originally posted by BUSTER1
One word -PUMA

Originally posted by weaponx510
First off Superman is Gay all u need is Green jell-o and you win...prepping for superman is not impressive at all....Superman has almost all the powers you can think of and his main villian is Lex Luthor a Rich guy.... F*ck Superman he is a disgrace First off he said Superman level foes you know people that can punch a building down with a back hand slap secondly Lex Luther is only one of the smartest people on the planet how is him being Superman's main villain a disgrace? Plus your name is gay

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Did you read when Logan got tossed out the window? Or when he was webbed up? Or secret wars?



asside from scecret war, the other events are not similar in nature to wolverine taking it to spiderman. They were not even fights, spiderman tossed a laughing wolverine out the window who clearly was not ready for a fight or expected it.

The other spiderman web a pointing wolverine who claws were in an again was in the middle of talking and did not want to fight spiderman.

These's are bad examples to bring up sinces they were not fights, but rather spiderman acting stupid and irrationally.

Secret war fight is valid example however

Also wolverine is a terrible example to uses for batman cases here. Wolverine superhuman in every physical way, and has a healing factor, superhuman senses ect, things batman does not posses.

Capt america again is not a good example either for batman, capt the next state in evolution, batman can never achieve capt level physical stats.

spidey takes out bats

Originally posted by Mshinu


He still has to worry about stiffness as in unnececary tensing of the muscles, something just about all untrained people do. One detail out of hundreds. And I know about military training, I used to be an infantry sergeant.



Cap is a good example of using his skill throwing a good haymaker. The reason he hits ungawdly HARD for a peak human is he got nearly perfect basics. MA is not about ungawdly techniques, it is about refining basics. Course in comics some can throw fireballs too..



Actually it is harder for people with super attributes to master the basics. It is way too easy just to rely on your speed or strength to do the job. A good student will improve faster than others tho.



True but he needs to study it first. If not he`ll spend a lifetime recreating medical science from scratch. Spidey has still not gotten the basics in any meaningful sense.



He still has not learned to mask his body language, Bats would read his moves like an open book.



Agreed. However if you train with a good instructor with the purpose of improving your fighting skill, it will be "pressure tested" to make sure it works. Nothing can totally prepare you for the first "real" fight however.



McDojos are a sad thing.



I see. I usually think of a style as a system of fighting defined by a few central concepts.



He is alive because of his speed, agility and spider sense. Sure he has some hard earned skills but they are not anywhere near where they could be. There are masters of hand to hand combat that could teach him. He looses to a lot of MAists because their skill more than compensates for him being stronger etc. He can definitely be trained. Even without his stats he puts up a decent fight (not on their level though) my main pont is the more powerful you become, the less you need MA. Thor hasn't taken an MA class and he has loads of experience, but with his power, he really just needs tactics.

His pre-cog allows for him to "predict" Batman's moves quite literally. He won't be as easy to predict because nobody moves like him, hence why it is unorthodox.

A person with a perfect balance and physical body would do great in MA, Spiderman has farrrr farrr more potential than the other street level MA's do, his mini has shown that. But it's not the flashy moves, it's the honing of his ability.Originally posted by Battlehammer
asside from scecret war, the other events are not similar in nature to wolverine taking it to spiderman. They were not even fights, spiderman tossed a laughing wolverine out the window who clearly was not ready for a fight or expected it.

The other spiderman web a pointing wolverine who claws were in an again was in the middle of talking and did not want to fight spiderman.

These's are bad examples to bring up sinces they were not fights, but rather spiderman acting stupid and irrationally.

Secret war fight is valid example however Why is everything about Wolverine, my point was of him saying he was "Spiderman's Daddy" which we know simply isn't the case, Spiderman either thought he was an imposter or in a training session. He tossed him out of a window for flirting with his wife, and he pointed his finger threatening Spiderman. If there is a disagreement, please post scans. Nobody is arguing context here, my point is it isn't good to use quick instances without pointing the whole case out.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
He can definitely be trained. Even without his stats he puts up a decent fight (not on their level though) my main pont is the more powerful you become, the less you need MA. Thor hasn't taken an MA class and he has loads of experience, but with his power, he really just needs tactics.

Even the big guns benefit greatly from MA skill. Hercules is a good example of this. Even gods would be beaten by far weaker guys if they did not hone their skills properly.



Unorthodox or no he still got four limbs tendons and muscles like the rest of us. Bats will read his movements before Spidey even knows what he is doing himself. The ability to do this and prevent others from reading yourself is one of the reasons those trained in the fighting arts seem to have unnatural speed. They see you coming from a mile away.



Sure he got potential, loads and loads of it. However he is not going to hone it past a certain level on his own. Getting to a level of skill remotely approaching MAists like Bats or Cap ON YOUR OWN is frankly not possile in a single lifetime. That is what teachers are for.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Capt america again is not a good example either for batman, capt the next state in evolution, batman can never achieve capt level physical stats.

Only he...has achieved the same. Unless you want to ignore all of Bruce's feats and instead use your own personal idea of what the character should be capable of.

I think I'll trust the books.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Getting to a level of skill remotely approaching MAists like Bats or Cap ON YOUR OWN is frankly not possile in a single lifetime. That is what teachers are for.

Why wouldn't it be possible? How do you think martial arts started? There haven't always been teachers, you know, people had to develope a martial arts system based on experience in combat.

I agree that Spider-Man isn't nearly as good as the top martial artists, though.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Even the big guns benefit greatly from MA skill. Hercules is a good example of this. Even gods would be beaten by far weaker guys if they did not hone their skills properly.



Unorthodox or no he still got four limbs tendons and muscles like the rest of us. Bats will read his movements before Spidey even knows what he is doing himself. The ability to do this and prevent others from reading yourself is one of the reasons those trained in the fighting arts seem to have unnatural speed. They see you coming from a mile away.



Sure he got potential, loads and loads of it. However he is not going to hone it past a certain level on his own. Getting to a level of skill remotely approaching MAists like Bats or Cap ON YOUR OWN is frankly not possile in a single lifetime. That is what teachers are for. Oh yea, but that is simply MA skills, Spiderman has othe skills that his dexterity allows him to have, as well as versatility.

Characters really high up don't need MA as much, Juggs or Hulk for example.

The speed and reaction time is somewhat true, when you are familiar with a style, that is why BJJ dominated so long was because strikers were unfamiliar with how to counter it. They had to make a counter style. Plus Parker is too fast for Batman to react before him, especially with precog.

Good discussion though.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Oh yea, but that is simply MA skills, Spiderman has othe skills that his dexterity allows him to have, as well as versatility.

True



Indeed they don`t need it until they meet someone who can stand up to them. I guess that is why Supes has picked up some skill



Can`t comment on the UFC since I`ve never watched much of it. BJJ is an interesting art however.

Cap`s skill has let him outmaneuver and hit Peter good, no reason Bats couldn`t do the same.



Thanks. Good Night

Originally posted by Mshinu
True



Indeed they don`t need it until they meet someone who can stand up to them. I guess that is why Supes has picked up some skill



Can`t comment on the UFC since I`ve never watched much of it. BJJ is an interesting art however.

Cap`s skill has let him outmaneuver and hit Peter good, no reason Bats couldn`t do the same.



Thanks. Good Night Truth, but I don't know if it will work as well with Juggy and Hulk.

I don't know if Cap can outmaneuver Peter technically either.

Night.

Originally posted by Mshinu
As you said, the first time. It takes SOME training but it is easily learned. As for 8 year old kids I work with them all the time so I know exactly what you are talking about.
You'd like it to work for the sake of your argument. But in reality it doesnt. If you're holding back in a fight and affraid to hurt your opponent it makes your attacks many times less effective. Fact. Dont even try to argue that.
Originally posted by Mshinu

Spidey`s "style" does not remotely make full use of his powers. He would be much more effective if it did. He needs proper training to get the basics just like everyone else.
Yes it does and it's been mentioned a dozen times in comics. Training might help a little but the fact reamins - his natural abilitis combined with years of practice >>> ma training without this abilities.
Originally posted by Mshinu

LOL it certanly does not prove an absolute statement like that.
Spiderman does not have Quicksilver`s speed anyway.
Yes it does. Spider-man might not have Quicksilver's speed but he has OTHER powers that make him superior than Cap. That was just ANOTHER example that disproves your theory about ma training >>> superpowers.
Originally posted by Mshinu

Nah you did not.
Uh.. yeah I did. I made a claim that Spider-man has every possible physical advantage and clearly has what it takes to land a dozen punches (let alone one) on Cap without trying hard. You on the other hand provided nothing to support your "unhittable due to ma training" theory.
Originally posted by Mshinu

He HAS been beaten by them and all the stats in the world won`t change it. Since spidey is "better" it must either be because of skill, luck or PIS. I`ll leave it to you to decide wich.
Since he always KNOWS the best options why does he still LOOSE?
You keep insisting that he's "been beaten" before or that "he loses" and that's supposed to prove something, even though I just showed you scans with Spider-man effortlessly pwning Daredevil and Kingpin (who are on Cap's level, maybe slightly below) just cause they made him pissed and he HELD BACK LESS than usual. He was still holding back but this time he was mad. Here goes your ma training >>> superpowers theory again. So again, if that makes you better sleep at night, Spider-man can lose to ma fighters if he's fighting at 20% of his abilities like he usually does when he fights opponents without superdurability.
Originally posted by Mshinu

Cap`s wins are pretty consistent. Or is it PIS simply because spidey lost?
No it is not PIS, in this case its CIS and there's nothing wrong with us simply followig the rules of the forum. And the rules say the following:
"CIS refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively." And that includes Firelord fighting Spider-man h2h instead of just blowing up the planet BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO HURT INNOCENT PEOPLE also it includes Spider-man holding back 3 times more than usual, questioning himself during the fight and not wanting to fight BECAUSE HIS OPPONENT WAS THE MAN HE ADMIRES, THE MAN HE LOOKED UP TO FOR HIS WHOLE LIFE.
Those are examples of CIS. So if no CIS we get two characters, one of whom is clearly more powerful than another in every possible way, so he wins. That's how it works in vs forum.


Originally posted by Juntai Report to the Spiderman vs Karate Kid thread and find out.
Stop quoting yourself, I gave you a respond THE FIRST time you said it.

Originally posted by SamZED
You'd like it to work for the sake of your argument. But in reality it doesnt. If you're holding back in a fight and affraid to hurt your opponent it makes your attacks many times less effective. Fact. Dont even try to argue that.

I`ll say it again since you don`t get it. Anyone with a little experience can pull their punches without sacrificing speed or accuracy. You only inflict less damage. Since spidey has been doing this sucessfully for years with human opponents he should have no problem doing it against Cap who can take a bit of punishment anyway.



If it was so he would not lose to street levelers with human range stats and better training than him.



Try again, Spidey STILL gets beaten by MAists. Keep raving about his stats and spider sense, it won`t change what has happened on panel. He has trouble handling characters with real fighting skill.



Again, Cap has in fact DONE what I say he can do. Spidey hits air and the shield.



The holding back argument is getting old. He DOES have a bad record against MAists all things concidered.



Spidey is not "clearly more powerful" than Bats or Cap, they have both taken down better men than Peter Parker.


All your posts are in short "spidey`s got better stats and should beat street all street lvlers because skill is crap and he is holding back and his losses does not count"

Pehaps eventually you will see the fact that MA skill in comics is pretty equal to any other superpower. Extreme skill in this fantasy world can put human characters on par with almost anyone.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Truth, but I don't know if it will work as well with Juggy and Hulk.

I can see some difficulties in them getting trained but there is no reason they could not benefit from skill. But as you said they don`t need it most of the time. If they don`t use it they will get rusty. MA skills need to be kept fresh.



I`d say getting inside his guard and raining punches on him is outmaneuvering.

Originally posted by Mshinu
I`ll say it again since you don`t get it. Anyone with a little experience can pull their punches without sacrificing speed or accuracy. You only inflict less damage. Since spidey has been doing this sucessfully for years with human opponents he should have no problem doing it against Cap who can take a bit of punishment anyway. I dont get? More like you refuse to admit the fact because it ruins your theory. Again, if you HOLD BACK and AFFRAID to HURT your opponent it makes your attacks SLOWER and LESS EFFECTIVE no matter how much experience you have. Its a fact and a common knowledge not just for fighters but for anyone with common sense.

Originally posted by Mshinu

If it was so he would not lose to street levelers with human range stats and better training than him.

Try again, Spidey STILL gets beaten by MAists. Keep raving about his stats and spider sense, it won`t change what has happened on panel. He has trouble handling characters with real fighting skill. Tell it to Kingpin. Becuase what has has happened on pannel was a proof that superpowers > ma training unless there are reasons for a character with super powers to not fight at his fullest potential. And that's called CIS and is not allowed on the forum.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Again, Cap has in fact DONE what I say he can do. Spidey hits air and the shield. In other words you dont have any proofs. I proved Spider-man >>> Cap and supported it with scans. All you did was repeat the same thing about a CIS fight that happened in comics over and over for three pages and didn't even bother to give proofs that Cap stands a chance against Parker if no CIS is allowed. Im not even talking about your claim that Parker wont be able to hit him ONCE.


Originally posted by Mshinu

The holding back argument is getting old. He DOES have a bad record against MAists all things concidered. What's getting old is this^ All things concidered he can punch DD's head off but doesnt because he's holding back. If you dont like the fact its your problem.

Originally posted by Mshinu


Spidey is not "clearly more powerful" than Bats or Cap, they have both taken down better men than Peter Parker. Spider-man took down Hulk before, so what? Did you even bother to read the forum rules when you joined? The fact that chatacter A beat character B in a book because of PIS or CIS even though the character B is a lot more powerful than character A doesnt prove anything on vs forum. Deathstroke held his own against Titans on few ocasions. But in a say DS vs Flash thread that's not what we would take into concideration. What we would have to concider is - Flash can land 50000 punches on DS before Slade can blink, so he wins. So dont even go there, talking about what Cap accomplished in comics is not important right now. And yes, Spider-man IS "clearly more powerful".


Originally posted by Mshinu

All your posts are in short "spidey`s got better stats and should beat street all street lvlers because skill is crap and he is holding back and his losses does not count" All you post is - "look that happened in a book so I dont need to support any of my claims and I dont wanna hear anything about PIS CIS forum rules etc" If Kraven the Hunter takes down the Hulk because Hulk for some reason refuses to fight by your logic that'd mean Kraven >>>> Hulk because "it happened in the comics". And you say my posts about stats and factors that affected the fight are bad..

Originally posted by Mshinu

Pehaps eventually you will see the fact that MA skill in comics is pretty equal to any other superpower. Extreme skill in this fantasy world can put human characters on par with almost anyone. Ive been reading comics for many years, including the ones about trained MA, and I dont need to see anything 'cause I know that in comicbooks training is great and all but its still not as efective as super powers unless ofcourse the one with superpowers is a complete idiot, and you're clearly overstimating the ma taining in comics. Because seriously, it feels like im debating about a guy who got a super soldier serum as well as the green lanterns ring instead of years of training.

Originally posted by SamZED
Tell it to Kingpin. Becuase what has has happened on pannel was a proof that superpowers > ma training unless there are reasons for a character with super powers to not fight at his fullest potential. And that's called CIS and is not allowed on the forum.

Originally posted by Digi No Mentioning Events of PIS
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics. Examples of PIS include Flash stories lasting longer than three panels, or Toy Man as a threat to Superman.

Character Induced Stupidity, or CIS, on the other hand, refers to any natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. Unlike PIS, CIS does not occur because the plot requires it, but because the character is genuinely that dumb. Examples of the CIS-afflicted include characters such as Rhino or Jar Jar Binks. Events of CIS are not exempt from debates.

Originally posted by SamZED
I dont get? More like you refuse to admit the fact because it ruins your theory. Again, if you HOLD BACK and AFFRAID to HURT your opponent it makes your attacks SLOWER and LESS EFFECTIVE no matter how much experience you have. Its a fact and a common knowledge not just for fighters but for anyone with common sense.

Actually it is a common knowledge for fighters who put a little bit of training into it, that pulling punches is easy and does not hinder your ability to move and land light punches as normal. I suggest you talk to someone who practices light contact sparring.



Huh? Spidey has lost to Kingpin because Fisk knows how to fight.



Superpowered people gets taken down by skilled non-powered ones all the time. Peter is not immune to this either, in fact quite the opposite. I can post a few scans of Cap dominating spidey and strength meaning nothing if it will make you feel better.



Hey I like the fact that characters can be hurt, makes for an interesting story. Wolverine can cut Peter`s head off too you know.



Says the guy that brought up Firelord....

The spider is stronger if that is what you mean by powerful. There are still many who can outfight him.



Listen, Spidey is not that durable that he can`t be hurt by a punch by a human who really knows how to punch. For all his speed and spider sense he can still be hit by someone who got skills far surpassing Peter`s. He has trouble dealing with skilled fighters because he is not one himself. THAT is why he can be taken down by the "less powerful" as you call them.

Originally posted by Mshinu Again, Cap has in fact DONE what I say he can do. Spidey hits air and the shield.
Spider-man shoots some web to the shield and pulls it away from Captain America's hand. Either he lets go or he will be fighting the rest of the very short bout with a single arm.


You know who else has? Squirrel Girl.

Originally posted by Tshern
You know who else has? Squirrel Girl.

Well she got squirrel like agility.. no defense against that

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well she got squirrel like agility.. no defense against that
If there is, at least Thanos and Dr Doom didn't utilise it.

Originally posted by Tshern
If there is, at least Thanos and Dr Doom didn't utilise it.

No way they could beat her anyway.. she is clearly too powerful

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Are you implying that Wolverine = Batman?

Batman is a human, a tough s.o.b human, and a god of martial arts, but still, a human.

Wolverine have physical abilities that gives him the possibility to go against the Hulk. They're not in the same weight class at all.

I mean, no disrecptect for the Bat, a kick ass hero, btw. I gives him a win over DareDevil anyday of the week! But he can't compete with Wolverine.


And Wolverine beat Spidey! are you saying daredevil isent as good as wolverine?

As good as Wolverine in what? In a fight, he certainly is not.

Originally posted by Tshern
As good as Wolverine in what? In a fight, he certainly is not. yet wolverine has been beaten by Electra on many occasions

And Galactus has lost to Vindicator. What's your point?

Originally posted by Tshern
And Galactus has lost to Vindicator. What's your point? that i think daredevil would beat wolverine

Originally posted by thanos-prime
that i think daredevil would beat wolverine

DD could beat on Wolvie with his billyclub all day and Logan smoking a cheap cigar would barely notice.

Originally posted by Mshinu
DD could beat on Wolvie with his billyclub all day and Logan smoking a cheap cigar would barely notice. till daredevil starts using pressure points

Originally posted by thanos-prime
till daredevil starts using pressure points

Wouldn`t KO him. Would maybe make him cough and drop his cigar..

In close combat Wolverine would tear him apart. Even from a distance he couldn't hurt Wolverine. Heck, Logan has blocked multiple shots from Speed demon with little to no problem.

and the pressure points simply annoy him and drive him into a berserker mode while having no last longing effect due to his HF negating it.

Originally posted by Tshern
In close combat Wolverine would tear him apart. Even from a distance he couldn't hurt Wolverine. Heck, Logan has blocked multiple shots from Speed demon with little to no problem. daredevil has used his billyclub to knock a bullet back into some guys head

Originally posted by thanos-prime
daredevil has used his billyclub to knock a bullet back into some guys head
if he tried that crap on my boy his billy club would be gone with possibly his hand.

That is really something. Wolverine has taken down Namor, Thing and Tiger shark down in melee combat and his speed is way above that of Daredevil's. Anyway, I'll stop arguing this here, because this is not the right thread for the debate. Start a new one if you wish.

Getting back on topic, I kept mentioning Puma, because he is skilled in martial arts and superpowered-with strength speed and agility on the same level as Spiderman's. Despite Spiderman's lack of formal training, he is an shown to be an even match for Puma.

HTH

Originally posted by Mshinu
Wouldn`t KO him. Would maybe make him cough and drop his cigar..



Like I said in the other thread, even before Fatal Attractions Wolverine's shown a decent resistance against the nerve strikes.

Now his healing factor is much more powerful.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
yet wolverine has been beaten by Electra on many occasions
Elektra beat him onces in reedmer, which does not mean she take it to wolverine on a forum match. Wolverine put DD in a full nelson in 5 pannels with pure h2h combat.

The other elektra events were circumstances which heavily favor elektra and even sitll she never able to finish him.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
that i think daredevil would beat wolverine
Well you be quite miss informed and wrong.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
till daredevil starts using pressure points
Which would do nothing, hell echo used DD pressure point attacks vs wolverine they only made him mad.

I just don't see Spidey being touched here. I DO see Spidey snatching Batman's utility belt though...

Originally posted by Mshinu
Actually it is a common knowledge for fighters who put a little bit of training into it, that pulling punches is easy and does not hinder your ability to move and land light punches as normal. I suggest you talk to someone who practices light contact sparring.
Dont need to 'cause im one of them. Holding back and pulling punches = fighting much slower and less effective. Man, you just can't admit you're wrong, can you? Fine, dont wanna take it from me, take it from a ma expert who has more experience than Rogers himself.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5362/whatifdcp0009.png

Originally posted by Mshinu

Huh? Spidey has lost to Kingpin because Fisk knows how to fight.
Just another proof that you're debating about a character you dont read about. Kingpin got his ass handed to Parker SO BAD it was sad to read, and all 'cause Peter got MAD at him and started holding back LESS than usual. Fisk didn't hit him ONCE. Hell, even in the old books (when Parker was like 15-16) Fisk in a fight against Spider-man had to resolve to some stupid tricks like sleeping gas and cane-laser. Once Spider-man even took him down while one of his hand was broken. Oh btw I remember reading a Kingpin vs Cap fight where Fisk was completely owning his ass and he said something like "what chance do you have if i've withstood the might of Spider-man" while crushing Cap's back
Originally posted by Mshinu

Superpowered people gets taken down by skilled non-powered ones all the time. Peter is not immune to this either, in fact quite the opposite. I can post a few scans of Cap dominating spidey and strength meaning nothing if it will make you feel better.
strength means nothing? Spider-man never used his full strength in his fights against ma fighters without superdurability. That's why it means nothing. If he did use the strength it'd mean something, Something like a hole in the head for any of these fighters. I dont want you to show me scans of Spider-man holding back, I want you to show me RANDOM scans that prove that Cap's skill make him untouchable for opponents with superior speed, reflexes and agility.
Originally posted by Mshinu

Hey I like the fact that characters can be hurt, makes for an interesting story. Wolverine can cut Peter`s head off too you know. What does that have to do with anything? Logan unlike Cap has adamantium skeleton and hf. And he unlike Spider-man doesn't hold back.

Originally posted by Mshinu

Says the guy that brought up Firelord....
I only brought Firelord to show an example of YOUR logic. Because your logic = "Spider-man beat Firelord in a book, so Spider-man >> Firelord" That's YOUR logic, NOT mine. You do realise that whenever you say Cap > Spider-man becuase he was winning in the comics it has "FAIL" written all over it because it only proves that Cap can beat an opponent who is holding back and doesn't want to fight him at all. But if THAT'S what you wanted in the first place, fine im ok with that.

Originally posted by Mshinu

The spider is stronger if that is what you mean by powerful. There are still many who can outfight him.
By "clearly more powerful" I meant that Spider-man is faster, stronger, has better reflexes, more durable, more agile, has ss to warn him of every coming attack and to pretty much tell him in which direction he should better dodge and has hard as still webbing and has 10 years of experience in using his powers while fighting all kinds of ninjas, monsters, aliens etc.. So yeah, imho that makes him "clearly more powerful" Cap on the other hand has ma training. Yay for him.
Originally posted by Mshinu

Listen, Spidey is not that durable that he can`t be hurt by a punch by a human who really knows how to punch. For all his speed and spider sense he can still be hit by someone who got skills far surpassing Peter`s. He has trouble dealing with skilled fighters because he is not one himself. THAT is why he can be taken down by the "less powerful" as you call them. You just LOVE bringing up that "he always loses to ma fighters" without givving much details, im starting to think you're just saying it for the heck of it. Spider-man knocked Out Daredevil with a single punch, he completely wtfpwned Kingpin, in one of his recent books he (AFTER getting shot in BOTH legs and TORTURED for several hours) broke free and took down Bullseye WITHIN ONE SECOND and < ALL that WHILE HOLDING BACK. He was beating Deadpool AND at the age of 16 he fought Wolverine who COULDN'T tag him once until Spider-man allowed him to on purpose even thoguh according to Spider-man himself he was moving much slower than usually because he was scared. All these people are >>>>>>>>>>>>> than Spider-man in skills, yet he managed to fight them, beat most of them them, dodge all the attacks and land dozen punches relying on his powers alone and was holding back most of the time. Yet you keep insisting that after years of experience he wont be able to punch Cap ONCE.

Originally posted by Tshern
Spider-man shoots some web to the shield and pulls it away from Captain America's hand. Either he lets go or he will be fighting the rest of the very short bout with a single arm.


You know who else has? Squirrel Girl.

Originally posted by SamZED
Dont need to 'cause im one of them. Holding back and pulling punches = fighting much slower and less effective. Man, you just can't admit you're wrong, can you? Fine, dont wanna take it from me, take it from a ma expert who has more experience than Rogers himself.

If it makes you slower you need to train more, it is easy to learn.

As for wolvie saying it makes spidey slower, well I must have overestimated his skills if he can`t even do this.




You fail to grasp my logic. Lets try again. High level MAists are shown quite consistently able to hang with "the more powerful". Spidey is no exception. The beatings Cap has put on Spidey are so humiliating that even if he was holding back to a ridicolus level it shows he Can`t handle him even at peak.

Since Spidey is at least 15 times stronger than cap and got every other advantage except skill so it is obvious what makes the difference.

Anyway Cap does not want to seriously injure Peter either so the holding back goes both ways. Yes he CAN injure him. Using his shield he could put him out for good.



He gets his wins but overall he still has a record of trouble handling fighters. Sure his spider sense helps him but sheer skill seems to bee to much for him once he slips up. Cap is a superb densive fighter and with his shield, right he won`t allow Spidey to hit him once before an opening presents itself and then BAM BAM.

As for the fight on the graveyard.. spidey "lured" Wolvie in and let him punch him in the face.. he is only alive because Logan retracted his claws. A good example of how the skilled Parker performs

oops, accidental double post, can`t seem to delete

Wolverine who COULDN'T tag him once until Spider-man allowed him to on purpose even thoguh according to Spider-man himself he was moving much slower than usually because he was scared.

Well Bats will probably put the fear of god in him. Heck Spiderman has admitted he fears the Rhino even.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well Bats will probably put the fear of god in him. Heck Spiderman has admitted he fears the Rhino even.

For sure, the best heroes in DC still fear Batman.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Well Bats will probably put the fear of god in him. Heck Spiderman has admitted he fears the Rhino even.

I doubt Spiderman would be scared witless against Bruce, and even if there was a fear factor, it wouldn't prevent him from winning. Any fear would have the opposite effect.

If Spiderman isn't afraid of psychotic killers like Bullseye and Osborn, I really doubt he'd be afraid of Batman.

Originally posted by Mindset
If Spiderman isn't afraid of psychotic killers like Bullseye and Osborn, I really doubt he'd be afraid of Batman.

Good point.

Why is this thread in wide screen

Originally posted by SamZED
< ALL that WHILE HOLDING BACK. He was beating Deadpool AND at the age of 16 he fought Wolverine who COULDN'T tag him once until Spider-man allowed him to on purpose even thoguh according to Spider-man himself he was moving much slower than usually because he was scared.

He was not 16, for starters. Second spiderman was not tagging wolverine either, so that hardly helps your cases.

No spiderman was not moving slower let a lone much slower, it felt that way due to fear and adrenalin and it a common fact when he relies purely on spider senses like he did, he moves faster and harder to hit. Please dont misrepresent events.

Originally posted by SamZED

What does that have to do with anything? Logan unlike Cap has adamantium skeleton and hf. And he unlike Spider-man doesn't hold back.




Your wrong, he holds back constantly and especially vs hero's.

Jinzin for the win.

Originally posted by jinzin
I've seen arguments that stated that Wolverine simply couldn't hit Spiderman in the graveyard and that it had nothing to do with him holding back, I disagree, and one of the major reasons why I disagree is because immediately after that battle in Spectacular, Logan tracked Pete down to talk to him a bit. With one noncholant swing he was able to rip through Parker's clothing before Parker could even react:
1. http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6497/spiderteargt5.jpg

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Your wrong, he holds back constantly and especially vs hero's.

Yeah, his control over claws is amazing.

Speaking of which.. here is the Spider`s fabled deadliness when not holding back

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1016/mcp1nj1.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6981/mcp2wq8.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9273/mpc3gh8.jpg

Originally posted by Mshinu
Speaking of which.. here is the Spider`s fabled deadliness when not holding back

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1016/mcp1nj1.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6981/mcp2wq8.jpg
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/9273/mpc3gh8.jpg

You're so right -Spiderman is no good, even when not holding back

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/549/feat6fight1jm0.jpg
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8940/feat6fight2ej2.jpg
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/7256/feat6fight3am9.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1602/feat6fight5uy1.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5659/feat6fight4sl4.jpg
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/318/feat6fight6lf0.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3646/feat6fight7jo8.jpg
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4693/feat6fight8lc4.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6678/feat6fight9oh4.jpg
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1203/feat6fight10ru2.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1575/feat6fight10eq7.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/2623/feat6fight11ak4.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/1860/feat6fight12no4.jpg
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/926/feat6fight13xy6.jpg
http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2888/feat6fight14cc0.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1430/feat6fight15ai6.jpg
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5411/feat6fight16nu1.jpg
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/8326/feat6fight17xa9.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/397/feat6fight18hy5.jpg
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4959/feat6fight19ux4.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1037/feat6fight20vc3.jpg

Originally posted by BUSTER1
You're so right -Spiderman is no good, even when not holding back


Unlike Firelord Wolvie is in the same range as Batman regarding fighting skills and speed, therefore relevant to the thread.

As for that fight.... well I am not even going to spell out the three letters for you

i wanted to say something about the scans but, i thought i be banned if i said anything.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Jinzin for the win. That's crap tbh

Originally posted by Mindset
That's crap tbh

......how is that crap?