Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Kain vs his physically most powerful 'son'.

There will be no conveniently placed Super Furnaces or any other external gimmickry to aid Kain. He only has his powers and the Soul Reaver.

Can Kain overcome Dumah at all? Dumah plainly says that Kain is not his equal (being trapped in the spectral realm for centuries and all). Unlike his older 'brother' Turel also claiming to be greater than Kain out of sheer blind arrogance, Dumah actually backs up his claim. Dumah is the most durable being in the soul reaver series. And probably the physically strongest as well.

Dumah laughed off at any offense Raziel could muster. Whether it be glyph magic or even the Soul Reaver's strikes/psychic blasts. (Compare that to Kain simply being hurt by Raziel's claws) Not to mention that like Raziel he existed even in the Spectral Plane, where he was completely invulnerable.



http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4676/prototypeactionfiguresf.jpg

Dumah ftw.

It takes alot more than an amped up brick to beat Kain.

Dumah wasn't exactly the brimming picture of intelligence either, Kain would figure a way to get Dumah to defeat himself much like Raziel did.

Dumah takes this, he's just plain better.

How? Kain is superior in every aspect but durability.

Kain's magic, and the reaver more than make up for his physical disadvantage.

Kain beat the Elder God, who would slaughter Dumah 8 ways from Sunday.

Dumah's better in every physical aspect, not just durability. He'll decapitate Kain.

Dumah shrugged off the reaver, too.

Unlikely. He won't be able to do anything if Kain goes mist and sticks the Reaver through his heart. Or he can use that spell to exsanguinate every drop of blood from Dumah's body.

Dumah may be physically superior, but that's all, Kain has a 1,000 ways to dispatch Dumah easily.

See my post, and the original post. Dumah /shrugged off the reaver./ Also, Kain can't attack in mist form, nice try.

Him shrugging off the Reaver is a gameplay mechanic. He wouldn't be a very threatening boss if you could strike him down in one hit with the reaver now would he? I obviously don't mean he attacks in mist form. Kain could easily go mist and attack from behind, which Kain has been known to do.

You also failed to address my point about Kains magic. Nice try yourself.

mariofacepalm

What's the matter? Can't think of anything, so your masking it by acting smug?

Dumah waz only immune to teh reaverz becuz of game mechanix. Guess what, it didn't one shot other bosses.. The fact is, if Kain or Raziel can't actually peirce their enemy's skin, they can't steal their soul.

IE, if they didn't want the boss battle to be too easy, they could have made Dumah capable of being hurt by the reaver. Instead, they made a point of showimg Dumah as invulnerable.

There was little indication that Dumah's skin was any thicker than normal. When you start the fight Dumah is sitting is his throne impailed through his heart, so his skin is obviously able to be pierced. Even if it wasn't Kain has all of his magic which he can use to dispatch Dumah.

Kain is the most powerful in his Vampire clan and is always given the best part of the Dark Gifts, Dumah isn't winning this.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Dumah waz only immune to teh reaverz becuz of game mechanix. Guess what, it didn't one shot other bosses.. The fact is, if Kain or Raziel can't actually peirce their enemy's skin, they can't steal their soul.

IE, if they didn't want the boss battle to be too easy, they could have made Dumah capable of being hurt by the reaver. Instead, they made a point of showimg Dumah as invulnerable. Raziel's reaver is intangible.

And Dumah still shrugged it off? This suggests general resistance to soul powers, then.

Raziel's Reaver isn't intagible, it's the Physical blade in energy form. If it was intangible it wouldn't do anything. Dumah was killed by fire, honestly Kain doesn't even need the Reaver in this fight...

^If this is the case, and I believe it is, then yeah, the Reaver's of no help in this fight.

There are no convenient furnaces around in this match. See OP.

So... Kain has been able to produce blasts of fire. No furnace nescessary. You've still yet to share with me how Dumah is going to survive a blood letting...

To my knowledge Kain's never used such an attack on something like Dumah.

And if I remember right, he has pyrokenesis, not the ability to spontaneously create fire?

He is pyrokinetic yes, but when you get the fire emblum, Kain is able to create large radial bursts of fire.

That may come in handy, though I doubt it's an instant win.

Not instant, but a few of them, combined with Kain's telekenesis, Dumah is going to be burnt crispy again.

Dumah's skin was pierced by stakes pre-revival. His soul was still lingering after that 'death' in the spectral realm and thus he got stronger.

As he said after Raziel revived him: "The centuries in limbo (spectral realm) have honed my strength, not even Kain is my equal"

After being revived were those stakes able to pierce him? No. Not even the reaver did ANYTHING.

And lol @ the 'gameplay mechanic' claim. Some of you clearly have no grasp of what the phrase even means.

Dumah LAUGHS at you when you hit him with the reaver. Kain is hurt when hit with the reaver. Zephon could be hurt with the Reaver, Turel in Defiance could be hurt with the reaver.

Kain's pyro magic is moot as well, unless you can prove that he can generate walls of flames as large and as explosive in manner as those of the super furnace that Raziel fries Dumah with. And you can't, because they aren't. The fire glyph magic that Raziel has did nothing to do Dumah as well.

So its not that fire is a 'vulnerability' for Dumah the way sunlight is for Rahab, its just that such a level of fire that it took to fry Dumah is too much for anyone in the Legacy of Kain series.

Super furnace, there was nothing super about it. Dumah died by getting lit on fire, and he obviously isn't Kain's equal because he was killed by Raziel. If Dumah is stupid enough to get lured into a furnace then he's going to be killed, and reminded why Kain is his master.

I'm afraid it's impossible for you to play it down with such trite descriptions. Zephon died by getting 'lit on fire'. (More specifically fire lit eggs being thrown at his head)

Dumah died by being trapped between two large walls of flame followed by an explosion that covered the entire ground floor of the room and then some. It was a super furnace.

And he is obviously Kain's superior barring intelligence. Raziel ripped into Kain's chest with his bare hands. Raziel was laughed at by Dumah for anything he could try.

And I'm afraid, as per my op, any resourceful tactics that Raziel employed that Kain would try to emulate would be non existent here. Kain only has his powers and the reaver at his disposal. This is an arena type match.

Kain's fire magic would be ineffective. And he can't suck out the blood of Dumah as he does with weak humans, for all intents and purposes Dumah being a spectral creature like Raziel and wraith vampires doesn't even have blood.

The soul reaver as already highlighted, useless.

How will Kain win? He will attempt to get in close with the Reaver as he will figure is his best option. Dumah will swipe at him and suck out his soul gradually if he tries. And he will make earthquakes as he punches the ground if Kain tries to run.

Wait... are you trying to say Dumah can devour souls like Raziel...? I don't remember him doing anything even ballpark to that. Dumah is still a vampire, and requires blood to survive. Prove to me otherwise. The Soul Reaver is never useless, he can go mist behind Dumah and jam the reaver into his heart, that will kill him.

Dumah is technically a revived vampire. He does not feed on blood. Just like Raziel.

Like the vampire wraith enemies with their soul suck maneuver, Dumah does the same after he swipes at you. He breathes in a blue stream of soul energy from the source (Raziel).

What do you mean the soul reaver is never useless? Ofcourse it is, if it can't harm Dumah, and it can't, it's useless.

Originally posted by Foxy Shazam
Raziel's Reaver isn't intagible, it's the Physical blade in energy form. If it was intangible it wouldn't do anything. Dumah was killed by fire, honestly Kain doesn't even need the Reaver in this fight... Its intangible and it doesn't follow real world physics.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What do you mean the soul reaver is never useless? Ofcourse it is, if it can't harm Dumah, and it can't, it's useless. yet he was killed by fire something Raziel has defenses against.

Fire? Raziel is susceptible to that.

Remember the knights with flame throwers?

Where's BT at?

My immediate thought when looking through the replies. lol

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
What do you mean the soul reaver is never useless? Ofcourse it is, if it can't harm Dumah, and it can't, it's useless.

Kain's Reaver was able to harm the Elder God, if your all saying that it will fail to harm Dumah then you all need your heads examined.

Just for the record Raziel is not just a "revived vampire" he was ressurected by the Elder God as a devourer of souls, to bring Kain and the other vampires back to the cycle of death and rebirth, Dumah is nothing like that. Dumah is still more or less a vampire.

At any rate, whose to say Dumah can kill Kain? He has survived worse than Dumah.

Edit: I forgot Kain also gained the power immolation in BO2, which allows him to raise a barrier of intense flame around his opponent. Kain has more than enough literal "fire power" in his aresenal, Dumah is going to get fried again.

The reaver didn't harm Dumah, so, no, it doesn't harm Dumah. See how that works?

Very observant of you. Kain's reaver is the true Reaver, the physical blade, combinied with Raziel's spirit/the wraith. Raziel's is just the wraith blade, thus only half of the true blade, making it less powerful. The true Reaver would kill the crap out of Dumah.

I dont even have to enter this thread, Dumah have no real feats, merely a few words which could easily be hyperbole or nonsense, most likely infact.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I dont even have to enter this thread, Dumah have no real feats, merely a few words which could easily be hyperbole or nonsense, most likely infact.

Sounds like this thread is right up your alley.

Dumah shrugged off the reaver and laughed, that makes him more durable than Kain.

By the end of defiance where Kain is actually badly harmed by the reaver Raziel had endowed it with far more powers than he had then, not to mention Dumah being more durable than Kain is irrelvent considering Dumah cannot reform through mist nor control his body on a gas particle level, further more Dumah has no real powers, certainly not to harm Kain and can be defeated through immolation, which funnily enough, is one of Kains spells.

Originally posted by Burning thought
By the end of defiance where Kain is actually badly harmed by the reaver Raziel had endowed it with far more powers than he had then, not to mention Dumah being more durable than Kain is irrelvent considering Dumah cannot reform through mist nor control his body on a gas particle level, further more Dumah has no real powers, certainly not to harm Kain and can be defeated through immolation, which funnily enough, is one of Kains spells.

Wow. Kain can reform himself through mist and control his body on a gas particle level. And you got all this from him being able to dash in a supposed "mist form"?

Originally posted by Foxy Shazam
Kain's Reaver was able to harm the Elder God, if your all saying that it will fail to harm Dumah then you all need your heads examined.

Just for the record Raziel is not just a "revived vampire" he was ressurected by the Elder God as a devourer of souls, to bring Kain and the other vampires back to the cycle of death and rebirth, Dumah is nothing like that. Dumah is still more or less a vampire.

At any rate, whose to say Dumah can kill Kain? He has survived worse than Dumah.

Edit: I forgot Kain also gained the power immolation in BO2, which allows him to raise a barrier of intense flame around his opponent. Kain has more than enough literal "fire power" in his aresenal, Dumah is going to get fried again.


The Elder 'God' is entirely featless. Sorry. Especially in terms of durability.

It doesn't matter if Raziel has a slightly different title to this name. He and Dumah share some abilities and needs, such as needing to feed on souls and being able to exist on either plane.

Yes, Dumah can kill Kain. Easily. ffs sake Raziel tore into Kain's chest with his bare hands, Dumah getting a hold of Kain is end game. Either through sheer brute force, or again, sucking Kain's soul out through his wounds.

Immolation was mentioned already. Absolutely no indication that it is any stronger than Raziel's fire glyph spell, let alone the super furnace.





The true reaver has no feats to suggest it can get through Dumah either, let alone kill him.

Or are we to just believe that the power difference between the wraith blade and physical reaver is the former making dumah ticklish and the latter being able to kill him? lol.

being able to burrow through solid rock across a continent is a feat, as is surviving the amount of pressure a being of his size would be under whilst doing it.

Raziel tore kains heart out after not only a long battle where both had more powerful blades than used agianst Dumah but also, Kain was not fighting at full efficency, Raziel is also more powerful than Dumah, you forget that Dumah just like the rest of Kains sons are just a fragment of Kains soul, each gaining more of kains dark gift depending on how much of his soul he used, Raziel has more than Dumah.

It disintegrates rock as shown by Magnus, also the fire glyph was never canonically used against Dumah.

Dumah was immolated, simple.

foxy shazam

That was a pretty worthless bump. Isn't there a rule about only bumping if you have something constructive?

^And what is that supposed to matter? If you hit Kain with your claws it hurts him greatly but then you use a cheat code to get the reaver when you aren't supposed to have it and he laughs it off.

Not a showing of anything canonically, that's just coding to make sure you fight the bosses as they were meant to be.

I'm still taking Dumah in this, Kain's immolation power is not as volatile as that super furnace lighting up the whole ground floor.

Dumah cannot harm Kain and would be vunerable to having his soul devoured.

Selective memory much?

Raziel who's far weaker physically was able to tear into Kain's chest completely.

Dumah who has the strength to make small earthquakes should thus be able to tear Kain limb from limb, not only that, he is able to suck Kain's soul out gradually through any wound he makes.

Vulnerable to soul devouring? Not with the Soul Reaver, as has been shown. Dumah will have to be killed first.

after a long battle of Kain under the effects of utter PIS, the amount of damage done to Kain must have been great for him to be weakened to that degree, as Raziel has slashed and kicked against Kain visciously before and caused zero damage in the intro to SR 2.

First he will never touch Kain, so tearing him limb from limb is not part of it, and you would still have to calculate the force of this earthquake.

Spirit wrack, death etc and why would he have to be killed first? only Raziels version was inadequate which is vastly weaker than the completed Soul reaver.

-Nothing PIS about Raziel hurting Kain physically. Raziel has always been capable of this and its been showed several times throughout the games. In the first fight against Kain in Soul Reaver Kain lets out a painful groan in a cutscene after taking Raziel's last blow. Only after that does he strike Raziel with the reaver.

In the end of Soul Reaver, Kain retreats visibly injured from his conflict with Raziel. He was nursing his arm. The Soul Reaver 2 intro retcons him retreating with an injury, but nowhere does it show Kain is invulnerable to Raziel's physical attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8
Raziel starts his attack at 2:07 and is successful in making Kain reel back from the blows and the kick even sends him flying back. You can say there was zero damage, but that's plainly because you hear from the blows that Raziel is dealing blunt force blows. He's not trying to gut Kain.

Remember still that Raziel claims to have increased in power at some point in Defiance.

Raziel by feats is probably a 100 tonner, so its not as if his blows are weak or anything.

-There is nothing I have to calculate regarding the earthquake. That level of power in the first place is superfluous for what is necessary to harm Kain. Seeing as Raziel has done it several times and again, Raziel is much weaker than Dumah. No one else in Lok has shown Dumah's level of strength.

He won't touch Kain? Kain is going to have to come in close at some point, and Dumah was certainly not a slow runner.

-Now, I don't have to prove anything regarding the Earthquake, but you DO have to prove that the upgraded Reaver is going to be able to outdo Dumah's durability.

Raziel's Reaver more or less tickled Dumah, I need to see something suggesting that the upgrade was somehow astronomical enough to go from being a proverbial feather against Dumah's hide to being a viable killing weapon.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-Nothing PIS about Raziel hurting Kain physically. Raziel has always been capable of this and its been showed several times throughout the games. In the first fight against Kain in Soul Reaver Kain lets out a painful groan in a cutscene after taking Raziel's last blow. Only after that does he strike Raziel with the reaver.

In the end of Soul Reaver, Kain retreats visibly injured from his conflict with Raziel. He was nursing his arm. The Soul Reaver 2 intro retcons him retreating with an injury, but nowhere does it show Kain is invulnerable to Raziel's physical attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jws63E9dNN8
Raziel starts his attack at 2:07 and is successful in making Kain reel back from the blows and the kick even sends him flying back. You can say there was zero damage, but that's plainly because you hear from the blows that Raziel is dealing blunt force blows. He's not trying to gut Kain.

Remember still that Raziel claims to have increased in power at some point in Defiance.

Raziel by feats is probably a 100 tonner, so its not as if his blows are weak or anything.

-There is nothing I have to calculate regarding the earthquake. That level of power in the first place is superfluous for what is necessary to harm Kain. Seeing as Raziel has done it several times and again, Raziel is much weaker than Dumah. No one else in Lok has shown Dumah's level of strength.

He won't touch Kain? Kain is going to have to come in close at some point, and Dumah was certainly not a slow runner.

-Now, I don't have to prove anything regarding the Earthquake, but you DO have to prove that the upgraded Reaver is going to be able to outdo Dumah's durability.

Raziel's Reaver more or less tickled Dumah, I need to see something suggesting that the upgrade was somehow astronomical enough to go from being a proverbial feather against Dumah's hide to being a viable killing weapon.
he holds his face and thats still gameplay graphics and not his face, hes hardly damaged still. hes immune to Raziel in Soul reaver 2 intro.

ofc it shows his pretty much invulerable, he is struck several times and theres zero damage....

Raziel does indeed increase greeatly, as does his reaver increase since fighting Dumah.

Indeed, he is, but still int that cutscene thats a hellava lot of damage Kain must be taking and still not having a single bruise. its still not arguable that Kain was indeed damaged during the fight between him and Raziel before being ripped, the last reaver slash in the cutscene slashes Kains chest.

Yes but the quake is little and how would you know Raziel in Defiane or SR2 intro is weaker than Dumah? Dumah says a lot about his stength but he has a lot of fewer feats than Kain or Raziel, his little quakes do not do much more than unsteady raziel.

The reaver Kain uses can slice the Elder God, the Elder God is arguably more durable than Dumah considering it exists under the entire mantle of the world....and effortlessly slashes through rock/burrows. Furthermore Raziel cannot seem to slash the EG at all, but Kain can.

If Kain wanted to, he would beat the shit out of Raziel, oh wait...

How do you know that Raziel could possibly be a 100-tonner?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Raziel who's far weaker physically was able to tear into Kain's chest completely.

When Kain faced Raziel in Defiance, Raziel "tore" thru a demention.

If kain wanted to lol? in the intro Raziel was like a toy, he always is to kain apart from in Defiance where hes not trying to make an enemy of Raz or jibe him. He liftes him about, throws him, manhandles him etc

He lifts heavy objects all the time, personally I would put him on the 40-50 scale, although my memory on such things are poor, hes likely lifted more.

Exactly. And, most likely, Raziel>Dumah=Kain>Raziel=Kain>Dumah.



Srdsvk1OmB0

@7:29

Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37412

Rationally speaking, Dumah couldn't kill Kain because it is not his fate to die at Dumah's hands, and I know that theory is probably wrong, but...

If i'm not mistaken, Amy stated that Raziel's Wraith Blade can hurt can, so maybe that was PIS?

Originally posted by Gumachi
Exactly. And, most likely, Raziel>Dumah=Kain>Raziel=Kain>Dumah.



Srdsvk1OmB0

@7:29

Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=37412

Rationally speaking, Dumah couldn't kill Kain because it is not his fate to die at Dumah's hands, and I know that theory is probably wrong, but...

Well actually for once you are indeed correct, Kain cannot in LOK die, its simply not his destiny, time will not allow it because time is immutable in LOK, things happen the way they always would have, the proof for that is in the same source as your quote.

Either way, Kain going all out can defeat anyone in Nosgoth, Dumah is too slow to fight Kain who coudl hit him with lightning, soul blasts, fire etc...

Since no-limit fallacies are ruled out, and Dumah can kill Kain, it's possible that Kain could kill Dumah, I think.

A no limit fallacy is when you assume that a statement such as "Can destroy anything" in a fiction actually does destroy anything in all fictions and against all opponents. In this case however you still have to defeat what something is, Kain is invulerable to being defeated based on time not allowing it due to immutability. Dumah cannot defeat that, not many can which is why its removed.

Dumah could never hurt Kain at all, hes never going to get close as Kain can teleport and is faster than Dumah physically anyway and even his soul drain is of limited range. On the other hand a vast range of Kain powers are very long ranged.

And CosmicComet, by your logic, Raziel is a 100-tonner, if that's the case, doesn't that show a great feat from Kain? Who tanked 100 tons? And besides, Raziel was possessed by The Hylden Lord at the time.

Originally posted by Burning thought
he holds his face and thats still gameplay graphics and not his face, hes hardly damaged still. hes immune to Raziel in Soul reaver 2 intro.

ofc it shows his pretty much invulerable, he is struck several times and theres zero damage....

Raziel does indeed increase greeatly, as does his reaver increase since fighting Dumah.

Indeed, he is, but still int that cutscene thats a hellava lot of damage Kain must be taking and still not having a single bruise. its still not arguable that Kain was indeed damaged during the fight between him and Raziel before being ripped, the last reaver slash in the cutscene slashes Kains chest.

Yes but the quake is little and how would you know Raziel in Defiane or SR2 intro is weaker than Dumah? Dumah says a lot about his stength but he has a lot of fewer feats than Kain or Raziel, his little quakes do not do much more than unsteady raziel.

The reaver Kain uses can slice the Elder God, the Elder God is arguably more durable than Dumah considering it exists under the entire mantle of the world....and effortlessly slashes through rock/burrows. Furthermore Raziel cannot seem to slash the EG at all, but Kain can.

-He's not 'immune' or 'invulnerable' anywhere. Why you choose to blindly apply those words I don't know? Surely no one could be as fervently blind a fanboy as that to be able to claim so.

Raziel hurt him in the first fight in Soul Reaver (cutscene certified, in the same cutscene where he strikes Raz with the Reaver seconds after).

Raziel was able to phase him and knock him back in Soul Reaver 2's intro with blunt force attacks.

And then Raziel in Defiance bore his claws through Kain's abdomen and tore out his heart. It was actually not through his chest as I first thought, so you can't claim Kain's chest was already cut open from the reaver slash since Raziel went through his stomach instead.

You'd think being 'invulnerable' to Raziel's physical attacks he wouldn't have been budged, let alone majorly hurt. Ever.

Dumah is the one invulnerable to Raziel's might. Kain is simply somewhat resistant.

-And despite Raz claiming a power increase, there was nothing suggesting a physical increase. His power base just grew after gaining TK from consuming Turel's soul. That's all.

-I addressed the slash on his chest already. The wound was shown on Kain's chest in the cutscene but Raziel actually ripped into Kain's abdomen.

-The quake has to be quite powerful to phase Raziel as it did. If you remember Nosgoth is plagued with quakes and in the beginning of SR when Raziel finds himself outside of Kain's citadel there was an earthquake. That earthquake did nothing but surprise Raziel somewhat. Dumah's earthquake is powerful enough to stop Raziel in his tracks, and it seems some essence of Raz's soul emanates from him because of the vibration.

Dumah may have fewer strength feats but the one he does have is an order of magnitude greater than anything Raziel or Kain have done. Raz in the beggining of SR 2 is weaker than Dumah because its the same Raziel that was weaker throughout SR...Ridiculous question. Raziel knocked Kain back about 15 feet and held him up against a wall for a time, Raziel would never, ever, be able to do that to Dumah. A guy who laughs at anything he could try. Strength and durability go hand in hand, especially here.

-Raziel can exist wherever the Elder God does. And when does Raziel attack the Elder God again?

Originally posted by CosmicComet
-He's not 'immune' or 'invulnerable' anywhere. Why you choose to blindly apply those words I don't know? Surely no one could be as fervently blind a fanboy as that to be able to claim so.

Raziel hurt him in the first fight in Soul Reaver (cutscene certified, in the same cutscene where he strikes Raz with the Reaver seconds after).

Raziel was able to phase him and knock him back in Soul Reaver 2's intro with blunt force attacks.

And then Raziel in Defiance bore his claws through Kain's abdomen and tore out his heart. It was actually not through his chest as I first thought, so you can't claim Kain's chest was already cut open from the reaver slash since Raziel went through his stomach instead.

You'd think being 'invulnerable' to Raziel's physical attacks he wouldn't have been budged, let alone majorly hurt. Ever.

Dumah is the one invulnerable to Raziel's might. Kain is simply somewhat resistant.

-And despite Raz claiming a power increase, there was nothing suggesting a physical increase. His power base just grew after gaining TK from consuming Turel's soul. That's all.

-I addressed the slash on his chest already. The wound was shown on Kain's chest in the cutscene but Raziel actually ripped into Kain's abdomen.

-The quake has to be quite powerful to phase Raziel as it did. If you remember Nosgoth is plagued with quakes and in the beginning of SR when Raziel finds himself outside of Kain's citadel there was an earthquake. That earthquake did nothing but surprise Raziel somewhat. Dumah's earthquake is powerful enough to stop Raziel in his tracks, and it seems some essence of Raz's soul emanates from him because of the vibration.

Dumah may have fewer strength feats but the one he does have is an order of magnitude greater than anything Raziel or Kain have done. Raz in the beggining of SR 2 is weaker than Dumah because its the same Raziel that was weaker throughout SR...Ridiculous question. Raziel knocked Kain back about 15 feet and held him up against a wall for a time, Raziel would never, ever, be able to do that to Dumah. A guy who laughs at anything he could try. Strength and durability go hand in hand, especially here.

-Raziel can exist wherever the Elder God does. And when does Raziel attack the Elder God again?

- Point out where Raziel cuts his body in the SR 2 intro please? and I am not a fanboy, I use facts...

Hurt him but caused no real damage

Their both strong but Kain actually manhandles Raziel when hes not overcome by Raziels speed quite easily....hes still not actually damaged at all.

Kain was slashed across the chest/abdomen with the reaver, he was still damaged from battle and both were greatly weakened.

Hes not damaged, and no he would be "budged" thats force not necesserily damage. Kain would have to be heavy not durable.

Dumah is invulerable in-game to Raziels attacks, cannonically his body has been impaled by human spears, how much of an increase his spectoral repossesion had given him is unkown. None of the vamp bosses can be killed or stopped by claw attacks..not even weak machiah who is supposedly the weakest of them all to the degree thats hes constantly rotting, its just gameplay.

"shrug" the wound is on the chest....either way he was already badly damaged. Raziel was also far far more powerful than the one against Dumah and had access to more abilities.

But only in gameplay....also the Earthquake was centralised from Dumah himself, he does not necesserily have a strong quake to shake raziel since hes simply close ,all he would have to do is make a tremur. His quake caused no real damage to Raziel.

Whats Dumahs strength feat? that quake? its an inconclusive and vage Gameplay manouver that your hyping based on how it shook Raziel....hardly 100 tons, and the only reason he could not do that to Dumah is because of his size...he could not do that to the other brothers either because their huge.

In the spectoral realm before the end.

Yeah, I just re-watched the cutscene, and Kain got cut across this stomach/abdomen.

Fact is, he was slashed by the reaver, which didnt actually kill him which was also impressive. Dont forget this is all cutscenes I am useing, not gameplay mechanics.

I think it's PIS, in one of the SR games, the only thing that Raziel's claws did was annoy Kain, but at the same time, he's hurt (when you first fight him, but when you fight him the 2nd time, he laughs).

I know it's the stomach/abdomen, because you see the blood splutter out from that area.

Whether Dumah is stronger or not is irrelevant. He'll never hit Kain and the Purified Soul Reaver > Spirit Reaver > Wraith Blade. He'll kill Dumah no problem.