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ok both have their suits both have their awesome swords, raiden has all his blades and all his limbs, Fox has his plasma gun and active camo, who wins?

Snake, in a fist fight, due to massive PIS and jobber aura.

cool, im glad we know that, now who do you think would win in this fight? nono

I'd say Gray Fox wins. Cloaking plus long range advantage would give him the win.

In a straight-up swordfight, Raiden wins.

Raiden ftw

If the fight got up close and personal (which I'm sure it would) Raiden would definitley take this. He was able to hold back Liquid's Outer Haven which had to be at least several hundred thousand tons.

Gray Fox is way better
Gray Fox was known as the "perfect solder" all raiden got was the lil woop de do he completed a lot of V.R. training... in MGS2 during the V.R. Training they had the avalibility for Raiden to where Gray Fox's exoskeleton witch means alot of fans realy like Fox more than raiden. also in MGS3 the only mention that came close to raiden was one of his relative Major Ivan Raidenovitch Raikov which we all know had some "fun" with Colonel Volgin but in MGS2 they had quite alot of reminders of Gray Fox and they have even more in MGS4 oviously becouse of Shadow Moses. in MGS2 it stated that he was trying to run away from his past while Gray Fox lived with it. Gray Fox's exoskeleton enhanced not only his strength, but his agility, speed, reaction time, durability; seemingly any physical attribute beyond the capabilities of 'normal' humans as well as the ability to become nearly invisible, raiden never turned invisible and seemed alot slower and not even close to Gray Fox's strength... yes we all know raiden took out all those rays in MGS2 but even the messed up, broken down and rusty Rex took out that Ray from MGS4 Rex is a hell of a lot stronger then ray at least Fox was able to do the damage he did to it i bet raiden wouldnt have done anything close to it...and dont use that excuse that raident went threw torture so did Gray Fox he had his nose and ears cut off during a torture session. Also Gray Fox was around alot longer than you think.
and to all you people out there that say Gray Fox was smashed like a bug, it took two stomps to flaten him not one and Gray Fox isent stupid enought to cut off his limbs or stab himself into the ground thats oviously going to move do to it being broken off by the ship "outer haven"
in addition raiden has no quotes that compair to Gray Fox.
and yes i am a big fan of Frank Jeager

Fox has a massive speed advantage, and he might have been able to hold back Outer Haven as well, but we'll never know, and we'll also never know if Raiden could hold up Rex. Holding back weight, and holding weight pushing down on you are two different things. And back to the speed advantage, Fox cut a chunk out of the ceiling, and it just looked like he had a seizure he was moving his arm so fast.

they are different but when the weight is hundreds of times heavyer it doesnt really matter, raiden could juggle mg rex's, not really just making a point

Hmmmm. Grey Fox pushed back MG REX'es foot when it tried to step on him and Raiden made a dent on Outer Haven when it was pushing against him at full force. It's really hard for me to decide who'll win here. Maybe it can be a tie.

Originally posted by menokokoro
they are different but when the weight is hundreds of times heavyer it doesnt really matter, raiden could juggle mg rex's, not really just making a point

Those were Gekko, first off. Even Old Snake can beat those with the right weapons.

Anyway, it's either a tie, or it goes to Gray Fox. They've shown similar levels of damage soak (both lost an arm), and acrobatics, and as far as holding back Outer Haven is concerned, Raiden only barely slowed it down enough for Snake to get out of the way. Gray Fox however, has shown not only to be in possession of stealth camo, but his swordsmanship is arguably better what with how blindingly fast he is (not even just deflecting bullets while it looks like he hasn't even picked up his sword. When fleeing after his second fight with Snake, he was chopping up the room in like, ten places at once).

what were gekko? oohh, no you missunderstood me i meant that raiden is so strong he could juggle metal gear rex i was exagerating, i wasnt reffering to something that happend in the game.

as far as raiden with outer heaven, he stopped it, it was going like 40 mph and was like 3 feet away from snake and wham, there goes raiden then snake backed up like 5 feet and watched raiden use all his force and then when he fell into the crack outer heaven turned and went away, it might have beem moving like.0001 mph but for all intents and purposes it was stopped

Raiden only slowed it down for like, forty seconds to a minute at best. The scene showed it was obviously still moving. He didn't fall into any cracks, he was still crushed by it, yet by some plot-based miracle, survived. Hell, a dying Gray Fox managed to stop Rex's foot just by laying there, and it took a second exertion to finish him.

wow, you just dont know how to understand me do you , the crack i meant was him falling between the ship and the concrete there, and the reason he survived was because his suite is a lot more advanced than foxes, and yes the ship was "moving" but extremely slow like maybe half a mile per hour, so like i said for all intents and purposes it was stopped.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Gray Fox however, has shown not only to be in possession of stealth camo, but his swordsmanship is arguably better what with how blindingly fast he is (not even just deflecting bullets while it looks like he hasn't even picked up his sword. When fleeing after his second fight with Snake, he was chopping up the room in like, ten places at once).

Was that all in the same game where Snake used bullet-time and jumped on a missile?

fox is much faster, tougher and more experienced than raiden even without a gun or stealth if it was a to the yeild fight with the same sword Fox would win he is even smarter than raiden and those rays in mgs2 were rubbish one was killed by a p90 how thin can their armor be

Nah.

Originally posted by Muzlalilulelo
fox is much faster, tougher and more experienced than raiden even without a gun or stealth if it was a to the yeild fight with the same sword Fox would win he is even smarter than raiden and those rays in mgs2 were rubbish one was killed by a p90 how thin can their armor be

The P90 that Solidus used had bullets that were armor-piercing and explosive.

I didnt know that but still 1 shot
also wouldnt armor peircing and explosive cancal each other out? even if they didnt there couldn't be much space left in it for it to have any power

yeah, the armor of the rays is obviously thinner than rex. snake had to have rex open its mouth to injure it at all, you could kill a ray without doing that. but i still don't know who would win though.

Originally posted by Muzlalilulelo
I didnt know that but still 1 shot
also wouldnt armor peircing and explosive cancal each other out? even if they didnt there couldn't be much space left in it for it to have any power

I didn't make MGS2 so I can't tell you.

Strength
Raiden stoped arsenal gear
Grey Fox stoped rex
Raiden is stronger but was to stupid to just grab Snake and run

Speed
Grey Fox can doge/block bullets from Rexes dual gatling guns
Raiden strugled to block vamps knifes (whatch closely raiden has a few sticking out his chest)

Experience
Grey Fox obiously wins as he has the rank of "Fox"

Toughness
Raiden was nearly killed by vamp
Grey Fox was smashed by rex muiltiple times i think that Fox is tougher

these are if they were to fight similarly to the raiden vs vamp fight, same sword length and no guns or stealth.

please add any stats ive missed

i think that you got the toughness wrong, raiden is tougher, at least his suit is. he was being smashed by something much MUCH heavier than metal gear rex like 225 times as heavy, and that is being generous with rex's weight, and the minimum of arsenal. but...i do think that that doesnt matter much in this fight, as the blades obviously still penetrate it.

yeah, i think that fox takes it, but it would be an epic battle. they are both really well trained, have similar backgrounds (if you remember raiden was a child soldier too) i think that fox would probably be losing an arm or become impaled a few times, but would ultimately win.

i think your right i wish theyd make this fight it would be epic we should start a facebook group or something like how ratm got the chrismas no 1

Originally posted by Muzlalilulelo
Strength
Raiden stoped arsenal gear
Grey Fox stoped rex
Raiden is stronger but was to stupid to just grab Snake and run

Speed
Grey Fox can doge/block bullets from Rexes dual gatling guns
Raiden strugled to block vamps knifes (whatch closely raiden has a few sticking out his chest)

Experience
Grey Fox obiously wins as he has the rank of "Fox"

Toughness
Raiden was nearly killed by vamp
Grey Fox was smashed by rex muiltiple times i think that Fox is tougher

these are if they were to fight similarly to the raiden vs vamp fight, same sword length and no guns or stealth.

please add any stats ive missed

Raiden also blocked Ray's gatling guns when he was human. =| He's much faster nao.

Lol at toughness. Perhaps you recall the time Raiden managed to not be turned into a stain by Arsenal?

Raiden wins this, I think.

toghness and strength are totally different raiden is STRONGER because he stoped arsenal but he was beaten to a pulp by vamp i think that fox could have easily taken that beating also raiden dosnt even manage to block all vamps throwing knives.

Raiden wins

Originally posted by Muzlalilulelo
toghness and strength are totally different raiden is STRONGER because he stoped arsenal but he was beaten to a pulp by vamp i think that fox could have easily taken that beating also raiden dosnt even manage to block all vamps throwing knives.

You talk as if Vamp is weak or something.

Vamp is atleast as fast as Raiden, is about just as strong, his knives move at bullet speed.

I know what toughness is. Raiden was crushed by Arsenal, yet managed not to become a smear on the concrete.

i know vamp isnt weak but he can throw knives at bullet speed and i think fox could have killed him in seconds

Originally posted by Muzlalilulelo
i know vamp isnt weak but he can throw knives at bullet speed and i think fox could have killed him in seconds

Even though Vamp has nanomachines that make him virtually immortal?

Raiden stopped Outer Heaven

/thread

yes Vamps nano-machines only amplyfy his natural heeling abilities if he was to have his head sliced of then he would die

any way we are missing the point both of them can easily survive losing an arm or being stabbed in they end its down to thier speed if they can react fast enough to the other ones attacks I think that Fox wins on speed and experience

Raiden at the end of MGS4 had litninz attacks

131

Vamp has physically restrained Raiden, is a casual bullet-timer, was much faster than MGS2 Raiden who was a Gatling Gun bullet-timer, and is virtually immortal.

Having trouble with him is no low feat.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Raiden at the end of MGS4 had litninz attacks

131 ooooh...i completely forgot about that. that definately would give him more of an edge.

so yeah, with that, i think that he would be the likely winner, but i also think that fox "could" win in that situation

What about the obvious? Grey Fox died against MG Rex. Raiden took out multiple Rays before he got the suit.

ray is weak compared to rex. i know that ray was designed to take out rex, but you couldn't hurt rex until it opened its mouth, and making it do so was extremely difficult. with ray you can kill them, slowly it is true, by just shooting their heads, and making them open their mouth was easy.

rex has much better deffence than ray, also rex was being controlled by liquid, the stronger clone of big boss, while the rays were just being controlled by a computer.

Even still, multiple Rays > 1 Rex.

i think you are underestimating Liquid and overestimating the ai in those rays. i have no doubt that fox could have taken all those rays out easily if he had been in that situation instead. raiden was fast enough to take them out, and you cannot argue that raiden was faster than fox during that fight, cuz that is ridiculous. plus, rex was just designed better for combat, everything that rex has is available right away, ray has to move its arms to be able to use its machine guns, and has to open its mouth to fire its compressed watter. rex has everything right there, it can shoot the laser at the same time as the Gatling Guns if it wants.

Originally posted by menokokoro
i think you are underestimating Liquid and overestimating the ai in those rays. i have no doubt that fox could have taken all those rays out easily if he had been in that situation instead. raiden was fast enough to take them out, and you cannot argue that raiden was faster than fox during that fight, cuz that is ridiculous. plus, rex was just designed better for combat, everything that rex has is available right away, ray has to move its arms to be able to use its machine guns, and has to open its mouth to fire its compressed watter. rex has everything right there, it can shoot the laser at the same time as the Gatling Guns if it wants.

Perhaps Grey Fox could have taken them, but there is just no way to prove that. If you can think of something, I'm all ears, however.

well it is pretty obvious to me that he could...i mean he was obviously stronger and faster than raiden at that point, and raiden was capable of taking them out with his limited abilities. fox could do what solidus did, jump up on their heads and destroy them with his sword/plasma gun combo.

lol i dont know why i am arguing this with you, i think that raiden with his full abilities would win.

Originally posted by menokokoro
well it is pretty obvious to me that he could...i mean he was obviously stronger and faster than raiden at that point, and raiden was capable of taking them out with his limited abilities. fox could do what solidus did, jump up on their heads and destroy them with his sword/plasma gun combo.

lol i dont know why i am arguing this with you, i think that raiden with his full abilities would win.

Actually, your argument is a perfect example of why basing my argument off of feats alone is fallacious, thanks to PIS. It is certainly true that GF had more ability than Raiden before he got the suit.

yeah, which is why a lot of these vs forums piss me off lol

I vote for Grey Fox however wouldn't Raiden have an advantage in strenght nd durability since he seems to have the better cyborg suit why Frank has the prototype.

I wonder if it would be spite if Grey Fox and Raiden were to fight without the cyborg exoskeletons.

without they are pretty much the same too...well at least they tried to portray it that way.

Its hard to say due to the fact they both improvise during fight but if had to guess the outcome Grey Fox would win Grey Fox is too fast. when he moves at certain times he becomes invisible and no im not talking about the camo.

Liquid piloting Rex is way more dangerous than the mass produced Rays piloted by a dumbass AI.

Just saying gray fox has burst of extreme pain that causes him to flee, so in my opinion, raiden would take full advantage of that. I like gray fox but lets be real. Raiden would win. Btw i may look like raiden is moving slow in the fight against vamp but it is slowed down so we could see the sweet action. Also raiden has alot more experince than fox and he is alot younger, has stated in the convos with snake in mgs4. Oh and ankther thing raiden as thermal view so he could see greyfox even if he is camoed.

After Revengeance, Fox loses and badly.

Oh i also forgot when you get your sword in mgs2, raiden can deflect bullets back at enemy troops. So he is pretty badass even before the exo suit.

Originally posted by KingD19
After Revengeance, Fox loses and badly. It says "Metal Gear Solid"

Not "Metal Gear Rising".

Originally posted by venomfox
Oh i also forgot when you get your sword in mgs2, raiden can deflect bullets back at enemy troops. So he is pretty badass even before the exo suit. Yeah but he can't defend his legs and lower section

Both of Cyborgs are extremely underwhelming, but Raiden from MGS4 was borderline pathetic seeing how bad he struggled with freaking Vamp of all people

Originally posted by RadZoa
Both of Cyborgs are extremely underwhelming, but Raiden from MGS4 was borderline pathetic seeing how bad he struggled with freaking Vamp of all people What?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
What? Neither of these Cyborgs are very impressive