Ogun vs Gorgon

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leonidas
both these guys getting a LOT of luv recently it seems. who takes it? all abilities available.

leonidas
whistle

complexbrother
Gorgun has that stone thing .imo he wins.

leonidas
"stone thing?" no expression

i'd have thought ogun would be able to avoid that if indeed gorgon even deigned to use it. erm

Mrblonde
If Ogun knows about the stone stare he could avoid it. But with out knowing I'm not sure if he could avoid it . But I'm no expert on Ogun.

leonidas
common knowledeg of opponents would mean ogun would know about the stare. i thought him maybe skilled enough to avoid it and still get a win somehow. not sure though. erm

Konton
Gorgon.

Enyalus
The Gorgon, yeah.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by leonidas
both these guys getting a LOT of luv recently it seems. who takes it? all abilities available.

Gorgon maybe, but hardly anyone knows anything about Ogun, saying he get s a lot of luv is inaccurate and if you are referring to the greatest swordmen thread, well the entire point to Ogun character is that he was best swordmen to ever live.

As for this fight it complicated and there far to many variables. Ogun is more skilled but it how to know if he as fast or strong. Then there the fact Ogun has crazy healing factor, but Ogun shown that his skill have developed beyond the mere physical. There also no tell if Ogun could take Gorgon to the shadow realm or simply posses him, there simply to many factors to this fight.

Survivor19
Ogun can't posess Gorgon, since Gorgon has TP. He couldn't posess Mister X for that exactly reason.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Survivor19
Ogun can't posess Gorgon, since Gorgon has TP. He couldn't posess Mister X for that exactly reason.
He did posses mister x.............so I have no idea what your talking about......


He also possed Jean grey for a time.

Survivor19
Aftermatch of tournament in Madripoor. I advice you to re-read.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Survivor19
Aftermatch of tournament in Madripoor. I advice you to re-read.

He possed him during the tourament.........as well as others.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Battlehammer
He possed him during the tourament.........as well as others.

He possessed Blok.

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
He possessed Blok.
he possed both of them re read it, when an an individual is possed there eyes glow and when Mister x talks to Mrs hydra he takes off his glases to didsply his glowing eyes and then Ogun takes her over.

Wild Shadow
mr. X was body jumping from body to body and it was obvious Mr. X didnt even know we was being possessed... until much later in the tournament when he jumped from blok to mr. x iirc

Survivor19
It is Madame.
And why don't we ask the Ogun himself, yes?

"And yet, the selfsame telepathy which made X such a formidable adversary in the first place, proved to be my undoing in the end - for he drove me out"

Battlehammer
Originally posted by Survivor19
It is Madame.
And why don't we ask the Ogun himself, yes?

"And yet, the selfsame telepathy which made X such a formidable adversary in the first place, proved to be my undoing in the end - for he drove me out"
yes in the end, however it not instantly, it takes a long while to drive him out, same with jean. Ogun is able to posses them, but they can over time drive him out, however Ogun does not need a long tiem to win even a minut would be enough he could simply cut off Gorgon head with his own sword.

jinzin
bump....

Really curious about what people think of this nowadays.

King Castle
most ppl dont know a damn thing about Ogun. more ppl more willing to say gorgon b/c they know the name regardless if the answer is accurate or not.

let's see Ogun has no body, is a spirit/immortal.. can fight on the astral plane competently. has used his power to take over various ppl and tech including the danger room and raise the dead as tormented wraith who seek to drag loved ones down with them.

he can hypnotize ppl with simple sword waving and light reflection of the blade... can paralyze individual's with a feathered touch.. etc etc..

jinzin
okay let's ponder who wins in a straight sword fight.

King Castle
well Wolverine stated that Ogun was faster then him and was kicking his @$$ up and down chasing Logan back in the day...mhmm

but, artist back in the 80's werent very dynamic in their artwork as the artist today.. judging by panel art Gorgon appears faster a lot faster then Ogun... so Gorgon appears to have the sword speed reflex over Ogun...


but, Ogun can hypnotize an opponent by waving his sword during battle so he has the sword skill over Gorgon...

skill can only help you so much before superhuman speed topples you.. i mean look at Mr. X example...

plus, wolverine has stated Gorgon is faster then him. so we know both are faster then Logan..umm

jinzin
Those were pretty much my sentiments.

Gorgon's always looked to have some sort of speedster level of speed. I was just wondering if Ogun's skill and outworldy-ness would play a contributing factor in a duel between the two.

If I were a writer at Marvel, I'd pit these two against one another in a second. Looks like it'd be too much damned fun!

jinzin
Oh yeah, and which Mr. X example.

King Castle
Mister X when QuickSilver beat his @$$.. not saying that Gorgon has the Superhuman speed to do that to Ogun just the speed to bypass a block or two from time to time.

the problem is that Marvel likes to pit a lot of new characters with Logan to establish skillset but then they fail to live up to those skillsets and fight ppl who never displayed any abilities equaling Logan which tarnishes Wolverine when guys like Gorgon begin their downward spiral to Rulk lvl Mediocrity.

it's the curse of once being the Best there is in Marvel and the need to build a rep for others....

back in the day few and i mean few could measure up to Logan in skills which is why back in the 80's early 90's the elite master swordsmen were Ogun, Wolverine, Shingen now you got everyone layin claim to it by retarded 1st time appearances and no established history.

Honestly, Gorgon when compared to a lot of Wolverine's rogue gallery and villains, isnt that dangerous nor unique. Gorgon's powerset isnt that special and actually was possessed by a "Lot" of Wolverine's enemies, minus the Gorgon stare. uggh

jinzin
honestly he does seem like a superhuman Mr. X more than anything.

King Castle
but, lets run down the list of Wolverine's enemies really nothin should make him that dangerous nor that superior.

Rapture(TP'er MA'er tech suit Precog)
Shingen(Master MA'er Pressure point practitioner)
Ogun(immortal, MA Master, TP'er, Sorceror etc etc).
Sabe(soup'ed up Logan, should eat Gorgon alive w/ada) no stare of course.
Bloodshadow(MA'er Pre cog)
Speed Demon( superhuman Speed,Blades)
Domina( Gorgon x10)
Rogue( phsyical attributes superior to Gorgon all around simply lacks MA skills and TP)
Psylocke(mind reader Pre cog, Ogun training, Tk amping phsyical tributes)
Death's head( superior all around over Gorgon)

i could go on and we could mix and match the skills and powers that some display equal or superior to Gorgon.. if ppl are goin to make a character make sure he is actually superior then the guy's average rogues...facepalm2

jinzin
Also.....

Originally posted by King Castle

the problem is that Marvel likes to pit a lot of new characters with Logan to establish skillset but then they fail to live up to those skillsets and fight ppl who never displayed any abilities equaling Logan which tarnishes Wolverine when guys like Gorgon begin their downward spiral to Rulk lvl Mediocrity.

laughing out loud Rulk level mediocrity! So true!




.... though I don't think Gorgon's there yet. Dude one shot Phobos in one of the most impressive sword duels I've seen in some time in comics.

jinzin
Originally posted by King Castle
but, lets run down the list of Wolverine's enemies really nothin should make him that dangerous nor that superior.

Rapture(TP'er MA'er tech suit Precog)
Shingen(Master MA'er Pressure point practitioner)
Ogun(immortal, MA Master, TP'er, Sorceror etc etc).
Sabe(soup'ed up Logan, should eat Gorgon alive w/ada) no stare of course.
Bloodshadow(MA'er Pre cog)
Speed Demon( superhuman Speed,Blades)
Domina( Gorgon x10)
Rogue( phsyical attributes superior to Gorgon all around simply lacks MA skills and TP)
Psylocke(mind reader Pre cog, Ogun training, Tk amping phsyical tributes)
Death's head( superior all around over Gorgon)

i could go on and we could mix and match the skills and powers that some display equal or superior to Gorgon.. if ppl are goin to make a character make sure he is actually superior then the guy's average rogues...facepalm2

I'm not sure if I agree with these completely, we should make this a thread. It's intriguing.

King Castle
i mean you are the resident Wolverine expert, should Gorgon been able to defeat Logan with the powerset he has compared to Logan's history and Rogue Gallery?

jinzin
crap sorry double post.

jinzin
Originally posted by King Castle
i mean you are the resident Wolverine expert, should Gorgon been able to defeat Logan with the powerset he has compared to Logan's history and Rogue Gallery?

I dunno. I think given the time the feat happened any Wolverine fan could easily dismiss that fight as being the result of Logan being a weaker fighter since he was missing half of his soul. No one could say differently.

The issue IMO lies in Millar's specific writing style. He leaves open a lot for ambiguity or tends to allow readers to piece parts of the puzzle for themselves for dramatic effect, even when he does give things away he does it in one panel or two which you might miss if you're not careful.
I think it wasn't til the second or third time I was thumbing through EOTS before I realized it was Elizabeth and Wolfgang in those opposing dialogue boxes telling Wolverine what to do.

Gorgon's no different. There, Millars writing style was even contradicting itself.
Listing Gorgon as a mere ninja master with class 2 strength? Oooooook?
Nevermind the fact that they also stated he was resurrected after being killed by rival gangs a little while before.... which seems like a pretty big deal to just noncholantly gloss over. What gangs where these? Was that after he got resurrected by the Hand after killing himself in the incident we saw on panel? Who knows! It's Millar time!

So what we know about Gorgon only comes from some semi-ambiguous fights making it hard to really figure out what the hell Wolverine was dealing with.

In terms of healing factor/damage soak: Gorgon looks like a standard Wolverine rogue there, with the ability to recover from any wound inflicted on him. But more than that it looked like nothing inflicted on him actually seemed to hurt him either. Which is pretty intimidating. Most of Wolverine's rogues can at least feel pain or register the effect of an attack on them, Gorgon barely muttered anything much less a scream when Wolverine and Elektra double teamed him. Beyond that.. what the hell was up with the green blood?

In terms of skill, we already know that TP can allow one to match top tier skill levels alone, that compounded with actual skill like Gorgon's and you have a Wolverine who's kicking himself in the ass for trying to match Gorgon's skill in a fight.

Strength... Millar said level 2.... I dunno about that. It certainly didn't look like level 2 but what it DID look like is anyone's guess.

Then there's his speed... Thing is Gorgon more than once in that arc looked like a damned speedster which would be one thing in and of itself.. but there's one panel.. one damned panel that changes EVERYTHING about how I saw that character.

When Gorgon has Elektra by the throat and she's attempting to plead with the SHIELD agents to shoot him he discusses how they speak at the speed of thought "here" and when he lets her go you see a little FX drawn around her head..

I may be talking out of complete ignorance here but for a second there, that looked a HELL of a lot like Gorgon's processing speed or ability to move/speak/think is actually outside of real time or displaced from it somehow, which makes things a LOT more interesting than just thinking he's really fast.

Kind of like how Elektra missed her sniper shot at Wolverine's head. Her bun barrel falls off and Gorgons standing 15/20 feet away from her no one standing there including herself even noticed him do it or realized he was there untill he spoke to them.

IMO the only think that's very suspect in that arc concerning Gorgon and Wolverine fighting one another was Wolverine's CIS. Just chop Gorgons' limbs off for god sakes!. Just cut of his damned head, or stab him in the face during the ambush.


But Wolverine being a generous sort with his claws in-comic is the standard for that lil guy. erm

I'd say overall Gorgon definitely has the powerset to look like AT LEAST more of a threat than guys like Shingen, Silver Samurai, or Mr. X..... to me, Mr. X being able to compete AT ALL with Logan is a joke.

Wolverine should be able to just outpace him. Meh oh well.

King Castle
i never liked X b/c his power wasnt anything logan hadnt faced before and overcome if not outright was shown to be immune.

at 1st it was easy to think X was more then peak human, he had to be in order to content with logan but, now that he has had more appearances he is just a peak human at best with slight TP/Pre Cog.pr1983

i mean how the hell could he compete with that powerset when others cant and are above X.

Psylocke(good/evil version).
Spiderman(pre cog/superior attributes)
Rapture
Bloodshadow
Brass
Ogun
Daredevil

I have gotten fed up with the Wolverine Character and his new rogues b/c they basically are being repeated in powerset but the new writers ignore or are ignorant of Wolverine's past villians with the same exact power and Wolverine's own powerset.

i mean how many times has logan have to be shown to be immune to certain lvl of telepathy?

X "if" we use his TP explanation shouldnt be able to read Wolverine period let alone keep up due to Logan's mental blocks, MA Mental training, Xavier Psi blocks.

Gorgon shouldnt have been able to read his mind either not unless he is at least a lvl 4 TP'er along the lines of Betsy/Cable early in their careers and even then Logan should be able in mid battle to shut them out.

The problem like you pointed out is the CIS more often PIS of a story and the character. Logan knowing or not knowing his enemy should stop slashing and stabbing at the torso and simply lop off limbs... but, if he does that the story would be over but that is how it should end regardless.

writers shouldnt be trying to write around the character and his powerset but simply build a character powerset and reason why Logan shouldnt be able to do certain things to them.


I know a lot of people like to see wolvie throw downs but they were getting old in the 80's early 90's which is why the hulk battles were the more interesting looked forward ones b/c we knew Logan even if he wanted or could kill hulk it would be an uphill or difficult process, same for Hulk and there would be no shame if Wolvie got ko'ed by Hulk or if Wolvie outlasted Hulk's attention span or manage to tire Hulk out....

While every hero seems to be improving in powers and villains the opposite tends to be true for Wolverine he is being scaled back to the level he was when he was studying with Ogun, giving him weaknesses and Ko'es that even at his lowest level before he knew he was a mutant was tanking through sheer grit.

you got Logan struggling to push off or lift a guy in a crystal armor who only weighs 1 ton.

Logan unable to Roll off a piece of "round" piller when we seen him lift giant debri as if it weight 5o lbs, kicking boulders like a football, gripping elevator cart, tossing motor cycles..

Let's Look at Gorgon when compared to:

Death's Head II
Shiva

these guys are adamantium resistant, high end healing factor, possesses his combat knowledge learning computer and other little toys...

Wolverine bypassed their durability by bringing it close quarter fighting, lopping off limbs... but, some how Logan couldnt think to do that to Gorgon knowing he is that dangerous ups to stay sword distance and when they attack him whether Gorgon allowed it or not... Logan goes for stabbing organs rather then decapitation?

i mean we seen him once he goes all out back in the day slicing himself three or 2 equal slices of meat coming off between his claws...

we have seen Logan slice heads clean off, arms, hands, Legs but the most dangerous opponent he has faced get's a clean shot he decides to stab?

this is why i no longer can stand writers and the character.. the dude has as much haters as superman and i cant blame them for hating disliking him.. it hurts to say it but writers are doing something wrong if they can put off a person who has collected Logan's stories for over 3 decades from his 1st appearance..

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
but, lets run down the list of Wolverine's enemies really nothin should make him that dangerous nor that superior.

Rapture(TP'er MA'er tech suit Precog)

It also amp her strength by 10, she has the ability to like turn into smoke and be undetectable pretty much, she also could like shot energy pulses or something.

King Castle
so why did Logan struggle with a guy that is a copy of those he has already fought and overcome?

Gorgon's speed wasnt that superior and was negligible when compare to other's ability of misdirection, stealth, superhuman speed, teleportation, TP/Illusion casting. etc etc..

Gorgon has no where else to go but down and i think it's funny and sad that Phobo's is some how now superior by ABC of Gorgon..uggh

"oh, but Phobo's has superhuman speed and is a god, look he hit his father". (Sarcasm) "so clearly these three are all superior to Wolverine."pr1983

carver9
I think you all are seriously underating gorgon here. I honestly believe he is over the people that you all named and could defeat each and every last one of them in combat (except classic cyber).

All of gorgon powers kind of fit in together and I can actually see gorgon regenerating from having some limbs being cut off, especially with all of the damaged he healed from before.

carver9
Originally posted by King Castle
so why did Logan struggle with a guy that is a copy of those he has already fought and overcome?

Gorgon's speed was that superior and was negligible when compare to other's ability of misdirection, stealth, superhuman speed, teleportation, TP/Illusion casting. etc etc..

Gorgon has no where else to but down and i think it's funny and say that Phobo's is some how now superior by ABC of Gorgon..uggh

"oh, but Phobo's has superhuman speed and is a god, look he hit his father". (Sarcasm) "so clearly these three are all superior to Wolverine."pr1983

Who has wolverine taken on that is like gorgon or superior?

jalek moye
Originally posted by carver9
I think you all are seriously underating gorgon here. I honestly believe he is over the people that you all named and could defeat each and every last one of them in combat (except classic cyber).

All of gorgon powers kind of fit in together and I can actually see gorgon regenerating from having some limbs being cut off, especially with all of the damaged he healed from before.

Including a non toying around psylocke?

because that's one of them he mentioned

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
so why did Logan struggle with a guy that is a copy of those he has already fought and overcome?

Gorgon's speed wasnt that superior and was negligible when compare to other's ability of misdirection, stealth, superhuman speed, teleportation, TP/Illusion casting. etc etc..

Gorgon has no where else to go but down and i think it's funny and sad that Phobo's is some how now superior by ABC of Gorgon..uggh

"oh, but Phobo's has superhuman speed and is a god, look he hit his father". (Sarcasm) "so clearly these three are all superior to Wolverine."pr1983
?


Gorgon would rape stomp rapture.

I disagree man, he had some crazy as feats in secret warriors, he was able to out pace three bullets and then cut them all in haft...........

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by jalek moye
Including a non toying around psylocke?

because that's one of them he mentioned
True, and Gorgon never fought a full berserker wolverine.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
True, and Gorgon never fought a full berserker wolverine. lol like it would've made a difference

King Castle
Seriously?

look at the powerset dynamics of Gorgon and compare them to Wolverine's Rogue Gallery.

Gorgon - Speed, stone stare, MA, sword, HF, low end TP.

Death's Head - Speed, adaptive weapons, MA memory instincts, by mannerisms including Logan's, superhuman strength, HF.

Shiva - opponent knowledge, adaptive counter computer, ada. resistant, energy blast, superhuman strength, flight, Psi-Bolt, HF.

Lady Shiva - Nano HF, ada blades/bones, morphic skin, highly resistant, enhanced speed, strength and superior reach. lives to kill and study Logan.

Psylocke/Kwannon - Ogun lvl skills, MA, TK blades, armor, TP'er/Pre cog, enhanced strength and speed via TK...

Domina - skilled Warrior, superhuman Speed, morphic body weapons, HF, 100+ strength/durability, adaptive.

Sabretooth - 3+ upgrade version of Wolverine, Bigger, faster, meaner, HF, well versed MA'er knowledge history of Logan.

Rapture: ( Dum, Dum post) also the Death's Head II Raptures : adaptive future alien creatures mix between the Borg and Hulk.

Ogun his Master 100's if not 1000 some years old Samurai Master sorcerer knows logan and his fighting style.. is immortal/HF when he has a body, TP'er, astral projection/body jumping, hypnotic ability, physically faster then Wolverine, raises the dead.. toy's with Logan and even let's logan kill him for sh$#'s and giggles from time to time.

Gorgon's powers aren't unique nor superior to various other's Logan has fought and Gorgon's telepathy should never have worked on Logan period...

I mean technically he is a mirror image of Elektra... sneer



and then Logan all of a sudden takes a dive in the last decade with Mister X a human with low end pre cog and no superhuman attributes.


might as well lose to daredevil without explaining how one fights spiderman winning consistentlypr1983

Guys like DD, Mister X should be the shallow end of his rogue gallery alongsidecable who was a low end TP'er mind reader, war horse, cybernetic, 10 ton strength, superhuman eyesight with enhanced reflexes.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
lol like it would've made a difference
Yes it would make a huge differences.......TP would have no effected........and wolverine physical attributes all increase as well as having his healing factor amped. It also been implied that his skills get a boost as well..........

King Castle
i forgot to mention Junzo Muto

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Yes it would make a huge differences.......TP would have no effected........and wolverine physical attributes all increase as well as having his healing factor amped. It also been implied that his skills get a boost as well.......... lol yeah ok.

carver9
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
True, and Gorgon never fought a full berserker wolverine.

What's so special about a none toying around psylock. She got STOMPED by sabertooth in a couple of panels.

carver9
Originally posted by King Castle
Seriously?

look at the powerset dynamics of Gorgon and compare them to Wolverine's Rogue Gallery.

Gorgon - Speed, stone stare, MA, sword, HF, low end TP.

Death's Head - Speed, adaptive weapons, MA memory instincts, by mannerisms including Logan's, superhuman strength, HF.

Shiva - opponent knowledge, adaptive counter computer, ada. resistant, energy blast, superhuman strength, flight, Psi-Bolt, HF.

Lady Shiva - Nano HF, ada blades/bones, morphic skin, highly resistant, enhanced speed, strength and superior reach. lives to kill and study Logan.

Psylocke/Kwannon - Ogun lvl skills, MA, TK blades, armor, TP'er/Pre cog, enhanced strength and speed via TK...

Domina - skilled Warrior, superhuman Speed, morphic body weapons, HF, 100+ strength/durability, adaptive.

Sabretooth - 3+ upgrade version of Wolverine, Bigger, faster, meaner, HF, well versed MA'er knowledge history of Logan.

Rapture: ( Dum, Dum post) also the Death's Head II Raptures : adaptive future alien creatures mix between the Borg and Hulk.

Ogun his Master 100's if not 1000 some years old Samurai Master sorcerer knows logan and his fighting style.. is immortal/HF when he has a body, TP'er, astral projection/body jumping, hypnotic ability, physically faster then Wolverine, raises the dead.. toy's with Logan and even let's logan kill him for sh$#'s and giggles from time to time.

Gorgon's powers aren't unique nor superior to various other's Logan has fought and Gorgon's telepathy should never have worked on Logan period...

I mean technically he is a mirror image of Elektra... sneer



and then Logan all of a sudden takes a dive in the last decade with Mister X a human with low end pre cog and no superhuman attributes.


might as well lose to daredevil without explaining how one fights spiderman winning consistentlypr1983

Guys like DD, Mister X should be the shallow end of his rogue gallery alongsidecable who was a low end TP'er mind reader, war horse, cybernetic, 10 ton strength, superhuman eyesight with enhanced reflexes.

None of this shows that they are over gorgon. His speed advanatge would merc then.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
lol yeah ok.
whats so funny?

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by carver9
What's so special about a none toying around psylock. She got STOMPED by sabertooth in a couple of panels.
Thats not current Pyslocke, she an utter beast at the moment, Having been trained by Ogun. She was also trained and thrashed AoA sabre-tooth. She a beast.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
whats so funny? your delusion that wolverine being berserk would've fared any better

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
your delusion that wolverine being berserk would've fared any better
why would he not have fared better? He far superior while berserker, if anything your delusional, if you think him being berserker would not show improvements in a fight between the two compared to non berserker wolverine.

carver9
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Thats not current Pyslocke, she an utter beast at the moment, Having been trained by Ogun. She was also trained and thrashed AoA sabre-tooth. She a beast.

So are you saying that wolverine could beat her?

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
your delusion that wolverine being berserk would've fared any better
Yea I am delusional becuase I think a wolverine who stronger, faster, does not feel pain, healing factor amp to the max, and fighting skill being enhanced will fair better then normal wolverine roll eyes (sarcastic)


Not to mention TP won't work as well.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by carver9
So are you saying that wolverine could beat her?
No he can't, she was able to handle berserker wolverine which is insane in it self.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Yea I am delusional becuase I think a wolverine who stronger, faster, does not feel pain, healing factor amp to the max, and fighting skill being enhanced will fair better then normal wolverine roll eyes (sarcastic)


Not to mention TP won't work as well. yeah, I forgot...berserk wolverine is more dangerous than non-berserk wolverine and elektra combined roll eyes (sarcastic)

silly me

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
yeah, I forgot...berserk wolverine is more dangerous than non-berserk wolverine and elektra combined roll eyes (sarcastic)

silly me
pyslocke could beat both elektra and wolverine, but got stalemated by berserker wolverine.



yes silly you, abc logic is garbage.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
pyslocke could beat both elektra and wolverine, but got stalemated by berserker wolverine.



yes silly you, abc logic is garbage. when the phuck did Psylocke beat both wolverine and elektra?

carver9
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
No he can't, she was able to handle berserker wolverine which is insane in it self.

A couple of people have fought against a berserker wolverine. He'll, cap held his own against a berserk wolverine but that doesn't put him close to gorgons level of skill. Mr.X has also tackled and defeated a berserk wolvy.

carver9
Wait, my bad, mr.x didn't defeat a berserk wolvy... that's how x lost, due to wolvy berserker rage.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by carver9
A couple of people have fought against a berserker wolverine. He'll, cap held his own against a berserk wolverine but that doesn't put him close to gorgons level of skill. Mr.X has also tackled and defeated a berserk wolvy.
Not as many as you think.



no, capt thought he fought a berserker wolverine, but remember he was actaully regressed to the mind of a werewolf.

Wolverine might not beat gorgon in berserker, but to pretend he would not be much more effective, is pure ignorance.



Mr.X never once defeated a berserker wolverine, in fact he almost got killed by berserker wolverine twice and had to be saved.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
when the phuck did Psylocke beat both wolverine and elektra?
dident say she did, said she could

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
dident say she did, said she could lol I knew you pulled it outta your behind

and no, she can't

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
lol I knew you pulled it outta your behind

and no, she can't
pull what? I said she could, I never once said she did.







yes she could, she a powerful telepath, plus a powerful TK user, and was able to display superhuman levels of combat speed with out her power let a lone with her TK amping them, she also was trained by AOA Sabre-tooth and Ogun, she an utter beast.

Starscream M
why did you even bring her up...psylocke isn't in this fight

King Castle
you started the whole exchange of conversation with dum dum... you also posted in a form bait a response.

now you are asking why he bothered to talk to you?

why do you constantly behave this way starscream?

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
why did you even bring her up...psylocke isn't in this fight
nors wolverine and yet we keep talking about him. Berserker Wolverine would have given Gorgon a much harder fight.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
you started the whole exchange of conversation with dum dum... you also posted in a form bait a response.

now you are asking why he bothered to talk to you?

why do you constantly behave this way starscream?
I know he constant starts exchanges with me and when they don't go his own way he plays stupid.

Starscream M
Originally posted by King Castle
you started the whole exchange of conversation with dum dum... you also posted in a form bait a response.

now you are asking why he bothered to talk to you?

why do you constantly behave this way starscream? what? I didn't bring up Psylocke...battlehammer did. read before you make a false claim.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
nors wolverine and yet we keep talking about him. Berserker Wolverine would have given Gorgon a much harder fight. wolverine is relevant because he fought both gorgon and ogun...he's a measuring stick

I really doubt it. Gorgon was toying with logan. Had logan gone berserk, gorgon would've played serious and would've finished logan. Also, a berserk logan would've died cuz he would've never done the reflect gorgon stare trick.

King Castle
i do read, its you who constantly fails in the debating and conversing.

it was i who brought up psylocke.

Dum dum responded to me and to Carver's question.

you came in and made a post to Bait certain people and insinuate lack of skills, powers and abilities of a certain character... knowing it would cause at least one person to acknowledge you.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
wolverine is relevant because he fought both gorgon and ogun...he's a measuring stick

I really doubt it. Gorgon was toying with logan. Had logan gone berserk, gorgon would've played serious and would've finished logan. Also, a berserk logan would've died cuz he would've never done the reflect gorgon stare trick.
yesb, but he only fought one of them while beserker. elektra never fought Ogun and yet that did not stop you from bringing her up did it?


Not really and Logan was landing shots on him. That all speculation. Why wouldent he? He superior version of himself, and that speculating that he would have even been in the same situations which I find unlikely.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Starscream M
wolverine is relevant because he fought both gorgon and ogun...he's a measuring stick

I really doubt it. Gorgon was toying with logan. Had logan gone berserk, gorgon would've played serious and would've finished logan. Also, a berserk logan would've died cuz he would've never done the reflect gorgon stare trick.

Gorgon wasn't toying with Logan, he was using all his skill, TP and even brute strength.

Berserker Logan is not dumb.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
i do read, its you who constantly fails in the debating and conversing.

it was i who brought up psylocke.

Dum dum responded to me and to Carver's question.

you came in and made a post to Bait certain people and insinuate lack of skills, powers and abilities of a certain character... knowing it would cause at least one person to acknowledge you.
cosigned.



on a side note, do you think the writers will remember how uber skilled she is or do you think there gunna find a way to ruin her?

Starscream M
Originally posted by King Castle
i do read, its you who constantly fails in the debating and conversing.

it was i who brought up psylocke.

Dum dum responded to me and to Carver's question.

you came in and made a post to Bait certain people and insinuate lack of skills, powers and abilities of a certain character... knowing it would cause at least one person to acknowledge you. I never insinuated lack of skills, powers or abilities of anyone

my point is that berserker rage doesn't give logan nearly enough of a boost to take out someone like gorgon

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Gorgon wasn't toying with Logan, he was using all his skill, TP and even brute strength.

Berserker Logan is not dumb.
Yup and he a lot harder to put down.

Starscream M
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Gorgon wasn't toying with Logan, he was using all his skill, TP and even brute strength.
gorgon could've removed his glasses at any point if he didn't enjoy playing around with logan

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
gorgon could've removed his glasses at any point if he didn't enjoy playing around with logan
it not playing, it testing himself. Also we are talking about non stone stare.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Also we are talking about non stone stare. hence my point, gorgon handicaps himself just so logan has a bare chance.

also, this thread does allow stone stare.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
hence my point, gorgon handicaps himself just so logan has a bare chance.

also, this thread does allow stone stare.
But were not talking about stone stare, and it be irrelevent against Ogun.

King Castle
and how is Gorgon going to stare at something that is incorporeal?

and can inhabit his opponent, raise the dead?

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
But were not talking about stone stare, yes, ok. but my point still stands, that gorgon wasn't seriously trying to finish logan off...or he could've used stone stare. cheap, but still a easy win.

now even physically, gorgon is much faster than logan, more durable, and more skilled and smarter. logan has hf. so gorgon still pwns.

King Castle
Originally posted by Starscream M
yes, ok. but my point still stands, that gorgon wasn't seriously trying to finish logan off...or he could've used stone stare. cheap, but still a easy win.

now even physically, gorgon is much faster than logan, more durable, and more skilled and smarter. logan has hf. so gorgon still pwns. so using your earlier argument: why are we talkin about Logan when it's about Ogun

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
yes, ok. but my point still stands, that gorgon wasn't seriously trying to finish logan off...or he could've used stone stare. cheap, but still a easy win.

now even physically, gorgon is much faster than logan, more durable, and more skilled and smarter. logan has hf. so gorgon still pwns.
he did use it.......though.




Again berserker wolverine enhanced ever single way and Gorgon telepathy won't work which is haft the reason he looks so skilled.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
and how is Gorgon going to stare at something that is incorporeal?

and can inhabit his opponent, raise the dead?
last post on the page, so bumping

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan

Again berserker wolverine enhanced ever single way and Gorgon telepathy won't work which is haft the reason he looks so skilled. he was deflecting machine gun fire with a sword...that is crazy skill and speed and reaction...nothing to do with telepathy.

Starscream M
Originally posted by King Castle
so using your earlier argument: why are we talkin about Logan when it's about Ogun cuz both ogun and gorgon faced logan...how they did against him can be used as evidence of how skilled they are

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
he was deflecting machine gun fire with a sword...that is crazy skill and speed and reaction...nothing to do with telepathy.
That true, but that does not make him more skilled then wolverine, many people have deflected bullets and objects moving that fast with swords including mr.x,silver samurai and wolverine. He faster yes, but again berserker wolverine gets a nice boost in speed.

King Castle
so what do you know about Gorgon and Ogun?

what issues have you read with them?

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
cuz both ogun and gorgon faced logan...how they did against him can be used as evidence of how skilled they are
but only one of them fought berserker wolverine. And berserker is how wolverine beat Ogun.

Starscream M
off-topic, but do you think berserker wolverine can beat sabretooth?

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
so what do you know about Gorgon and Ogun?

what issues have you read with them?
zero would be my guess

Starscream M
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
zero would be my guess and you would be wrong, as usual.

I've read a majority of the gorgon appearances...have not read much of ogun though

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by Starscream M
and you would be wrong, as usual.

I've read a majority of the gorgon appearances...have not read much of ogun though
I the one wrong usually? come on now, I know, you know and everyone else knows my knowledge on comics vastly exceeds your own.



I find this to be very doubtful.

King Castle
Originally posted by Starscream M
and you would be wrong, as usual.

I've read a majority of the gorgon appearances...have not read much of ogun though so make a case for one or the other.

Dum Dum no one help him dont give him feats to use let him use his own knowledge of the character and hear his reasoning

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by King Castle
so make a case for one or the other.

Dum Dum no one help him dont give him feats to use let him use his own knowledge of the character and hear his reasoning


k

King Castle
@starscream

we are waiting..

or are you only able to make snide remarks in debating forums?

Starscream M
I think ogun wins only because he's corporeal form and gorgon has no means to hurt him

Dum Dum Dugan
fight we were talking about
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-008.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-009.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-010.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-011.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-012.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-013.jpg

Dum Dum Dugan
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-014.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-015.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-016.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-017.jpg http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae289/ankur2292/th_Psylocke04-018.jpg

jinzin
Originally posted by Starscream M
wolverine is relevant because he fought both gorgon and ogun...he's a measuring stick

I really doubt it. Gorgon was toying with logan. Had logan gone berserk, gorgon would've played serious and would've finished logan. Also, a berserk logan would've died cuz he would've never done the reflect gorgon stare trick.

Lulz starscream always good for a chuckle.

What in your right mind gives you this idea that Gorgon was playing around?


He drove a sword through his throat, his liver, his lung, and tried to drive it through the back of his neck at one point. No where did it look like the physical confrontation between the two allowed for a toying around Gorgon.

Please... Oh and BTW:
Wolverine in berserker vs. Gorgon would have been a COMPLETELY different fight... EXPECIALLY if he had his damned soul complete again.

Dum Dum Dugan
I really like the psylocke fight, the story and art in my opinion is great.

jinzin
Indeed.
Great display for both characters too. IMO they both looks bad ass without either having to job.

Dum Dum Dugan
Originally posted by jinzin
Indeed.
Great display for both characters too. IMO they both looks bad ass without either having to job.
yup agreed. One of my favorite fights of any comic, it has such back and forth. I love the narrative is what pyslocke is thinking. Do you know who wrote it? I know it from the elektra mini, but I can't recall who wrote it.

carver9
I still do not think that fight showed that psylock is above gorgon. Is there any other fights involving her that shows that she could probably beat him because the only reason wolverine even got a lick off of gorgon was because he ambushed him. I agree though... when I first read that fight, I thought of it as one of th bset as well.

King Castle
Psylocke was out reacting Rogue during training session when Rogue was power stacking and had the speed of Quick silver and her Ms. Marvel Strength...

Psylocke explained her TK powers and mind allows her to have the strength to fight her h2h and speed up her own reflexes..

Psylocke by virtue of power alone and her MA training puts her above Gorgon. combat wise and power wise.

jinzin
I honestly do not. I dropped off the comic scene for so long I had no idea about that book when it got posted tbh.

Originally posted by carver9
I still do not think that fight showed that psylock is above gorgon. Is there any other fights involving her that shows that she could probably beat him because the only reason wolverine even got a lick off of gorgon was because he ambushed him. I agree though... when I first read that fight, I thought of it as one of th bset as well.

How? confused


Wolverine's ambush got turned around on him. I honestly don't think there's much reason to believe that Gorgon was greatly hindered by what they attempted to do to him during the ambush.

They were both ****ed up by the time the melee went underway and Wolverine was still missing half of his soul during that fight. erm

carver9
Originally posted by jinzin
I honestly do not. I dropped off the comic scene for so long I had no idea about that book when it got posted tbh.



How? confused


Wolverine's ambush got turned around on him. I honestly don't think there's much reason to believe that Gorgon was greatly hindered by what they attempted to do to him during the ambush.

They were both ****ed up by the time the melee went underway and Wolverine was still missing half of his soul during that fight. erm

I know it got turned around on him but it was one of the main reasons he was able to even touch gorgon. He got in "extremely" close which hindered gorgon from being able to use his speed.

Are you saying that wolverine would have fared better if he wasn't missing his soul? Missing his soul didn't take away from his physical stats, it only took away from his healing factor. The only thing that would have changed with having his soul is gorgon taking a much longer time at pounding him to sleep.

carver9
Originally posted by King Castle
Psylocke was out reacting Rogue during training session when Rogue was power stacking and had the speed of Quick silver and her Ms. Marvel Strength...

Psylocke explained her TK powers and mind allows her to have the strength to fight her h2h and speed up her own reflexes..

Psylocke by virtue of power alone and her MA training puts her above Gorgon. combat wise and power wise.

I know of the rogue fight and honestly, I don't know but is that even canon?

jinzin
Originally posted by carver9
I know it got turned around on him but it was one of the main reasons he was able to even touch gorgon. He got in "extremely" close which hindered gorgon from being able to use his speed.

The second time they confronted one another they were 5 feet away from eachother both standing up at the same time. Wolverine was able to land shots, and it wasn't because of distance. He was just that fast.

Originally posted by carver9
Are you saying that wolverine would have fared better if he wasn't missing his soul? Missing his soul didn't take away from his physical stats, it only took away from his healing factor. The only thing that would have changed with having his soul is gorgon taking a much longer time at pounding him to sleep.

You're wrong. Azrael said that missing half of his soul made him weaker in a fight. Making Logan weaker was the whole point, so Shogun could kill him. erm

King Castle
@jinzin

you should post the fight where logan fights Shogun the second time and analyzes his skills not realizing that Logan is basically analyzing himself.

Dum Dum Dugan
which is interesting to becuase he states he has gorgon speed, in the first fight.

King Castle
Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
which is interesting to becuase he states he has gorgon speed, in the first fight. exactly.. that was my point food for thought to my fellow Wolvie readers.

StiltmanFTW
Going by your logic, it would mean that Wolverine with his soul intact is faster than freakin Gorgon, uses Hand ninja evasive maneuvers and "cheats like Sabretooth".

Yeah, sure. Shogun was a magical construct, that's it. Hand's dark magic makes guys faster, deadlier. That's what they do.

"LOL look at what 10% Wolverine can do" - retarded, that's what it is.

King Castle
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Going by your logic, it would mean that Wolverine with his soul intact is faster than freakin Gorgon, uses Hand ninja evasive maneuvers and "cheats like Sabretooth".

Yeah, sure. Shogun was a magical construct, that's it. Hand's dark magic makes guys faster, deadlier. That's what they do.

"LOL look at what 10% Wolverine can do" - retarded, that's what it is. no.. just that it appears Logan is not fighting at his full potential for whatever reason it may be.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by King Castle
no.. just that it appears Logan is not fighting at his full potential for whatever reason it may be.

He still wouldn't be as fast as/faster than Gorgon.

King Castle
he doesnt need to be to beat him in melee.. just melee draw him in and decapitate his @$$ and dismember some limbs.

jinzin
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Going by your logic, it would mean that Wolverine with his soul intact is faster than freakin Gorgon, uses Hand ninja evasive maneuvers and "cheats like Sabretooth".

Yeah, sure. Shogun was a magical construct, that's it. Hand's dark magic makes guys faster, deadlier. That's what they do.

"LOL look at what 10% Wolverine can do" - retarded, that's what it is.

Why wouldn't Wolverine "cheat like Sabretooth"?
Why wouldn't he "move like the hand"?

Those attributes are both part of his character AND skillset.

Wolverine was weaker in some ways throughout the entire run of EOTS so it isn't as simple as "The hand makes you stronger" because where his fighting skill was concerned, they didn't. Strength? no. Speed? no.

The Hand usually does not strip characters of half their soul. It usually isn't a plot point worth discussion that they're "weaker" after resurrection, but it was with Wolverine... Which actually makes sense.. You think a full strength Wolverine couldn't fight off the mind control implicated by Hydra? Seems a stretch.

As for his speed, outside of that arc Wolverine's feats of speed are quite comparible to Gorgons. *shrug*

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by jinzin
Why wouldn't Wolverine "cheat like Sabretooth"?

Not his style. Although kicking guys in the nuts ain't nothing new for him, that much is true.

Originally posted by jinzin
Why wouldn't he "move like the hand"?

Cause he's got better moves.


Originally posted by jinzin
Those attributes are both part of his character AND skillset.

Wolverine was weaker in some ways throughout the entire run of EOTS so it isn't as simple as "The hand makes you stronger" because where his fighting skill was concerned, they didn't. Strength? no. Speed? no.

The Hand usually does not strip characters of half their soul. It usually isn't a plot point worth discussion that they're "weaker" after resurrection, but it was with Wolverine... Which actually makes sense.. You think a full strength Wolverine couldn't fight off the mind control implicated by Hydra? Seems a stretch.

As for his speed, outside of that arc Wolverine's feats of speed are quite comparible to Gorgons. *shrug*

What ways? According to Guggenheim only his fighting skill and willpower were decreased. What I meant was that Hand's magic made Shogun as formidable as it was.

Again, I'm not denying that he was weaker. It's just that I don't believe that nothing more than a fraction of his soul can make a trash can that dangerous.

He's got tons of appearances, that is why. He never speedblitzed Elektra though stick out tongue

jinzin
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Not his style. Although kicking guys in the nuts ain't nothing new for him, that much is true.

So then... he cheats like Sabretooth at times.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Cause he's got better moves.
Which precludes that he necessarily uses them ALL of the time?
Are they better than Hand Jonin? Than Hand grandmasters?

Meh, I think you're reading into the statement a bit too much. It's probable that the only thing he was trying to convey was that Shogun was ninja skilled.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What ways? According to Guggenheim only his fighting skill and willpower were decreased. What I meant was that Hand's magic made Shogun as formidable as it was.

Again, I'm not denying that he was weaker. It's just that I don't believe that nothing more than a fraction of his soul can make a trash can that dangerous.

He's got tons of appearances, that is why. He never speedblitzed Elektra though stick out tongue
Dunno, Azrael just said that it just made him weak and that the weakness that Logan suffered was enough of one to 180 a century of winning streaks.


I don't think that Wolverine got some insane boost in his speed or strength after getting his soul back, but it was made pretty clear that his missing soul was affecting him on the battlefield.

Meh a fraction of Wolverine's soul is still probably more dangerous than most people who are stuck in or approach the 2nd skill tier level.

Elektra; Give Logan some ridiculous TP that bypasses TP blocks and that might change.

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