Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins ?

Darkseid.

Just because Superman gave him beatings doesn't mean anyone near Superman's typical level does.
Superman steps it up several notches to fight Darkseid.

darkseid.

DS.

Originally posted by Juntai
Darkseid.

Just because Superman gave him beatings doesn't mean anyone near Superman's typical level does.
Superman steps it up several notches to fight Darkseid. i agree.

superman would stomp BA anyway, he's near, but he's not superman

Black Adam could probably be erased with the Omega Effect

Hm. If it's established that Superman steps up quite a bit above his normal level when he fights powerfull characters like Darkseid, then how come losing to Superman is held against him every single time he is put up against Thanos and even the likes of Thor/Silver Surfer ? Or is this acknowledged only when characters from a certain company are involved ?

So nobody thinks Black Adam, who wrecked just about everybody short of SBP, could take a couple wins?

I don't agree with some premise that says Superman walks through BA and beats him handily. As we've seen in his fights with Marvel where they are near equal in every way with Marvel having the magical edge that so happens to be a weakness of supes. Now we know BA trashes Marvel and yet "some" people claim Supes walks through BA lol lol.

As far as supes fighting above his level against DS.... He fights above his level all the time thanks to being DC's poster boy. That doesn't just occur against DS. He's fought and defeated much more powerful characters that DS so I would hardly use supes against DS as some kinda of benchmark or proof of him fighting above his level.

Superman is DC's Wolverine. He regularly gets beat by guys who are lower than him, then comes back and wipes out everybody.

Originally posted by KingD19
He regularly gets beat by guys who are lower than him eh, wut?? none

Now, having said what I did earlier... I think DS beats BA convincingly

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I don't agree with some premise that says Superman walks through BA and beats him handily. As we've seen in his fights with Marvel where they are near equal in every way with Marvel having the magical edge that so happens to be a weakness of supes. Now we know BA trashes Marvel and yet "some" people claim Supes walks through BA lol lol.

As far as supes fighting above his level against DS.... He fights above his level all the time thanks to being DC's poster boy. That doesn't just occur against DS. He's fought and defeated much more powerful characters that DS so I would hardly use supes against DS as some kinda of benchmark or proof of him fighting above his level.

superman holds back against marvel too.

and it isn't just about being a poster boy. he is genuinely that powerful.

Wonder Woman, who is consistently shown to be lower than him, whooped all up and down on his ass.

Subjekt 17, who effortlessly decimated Superman at 1st, came back, then lost.

etc...

Darkseid takes it

Originally posted by Juntai
Darkseid.

Just because Superman gave him beatings doesn't mean anyone near Superman's typical level does.
Superman steps it up several notches to fight Darkseid.





Supes strength level varies too. especially when he fights guys like darksied. Supes has actually faired better against darky then BA in the past yet i dont see Ba doing the dmg to darky that supes does.

Originally posted by KingD19
Wonder Woman, who is consistently shown to be lower than him, whooped all up and down on his ass.

Subjekt 17, who effortlessly decimated Superman at 1st, came back, then lost.

etc...

when? or do you mean sacrifice?

why does his fight with subjekt 17 make him look weak?

His fight with Subjekt 17 made him look stronger. S17 had TP, and just as much strength as him. Too bad, Superman kicked his ass easily

Subjekt 17 won their 1st fight. Superman even stated that Subjekt was getting stronger as they fought. Then he came back and was dressed like a samurai for some reason, it looked like he let Supes win, so he could justify Superman choosing the humans over him.

Originally posted by KingD19
Subjekt 17 won their 1st fight. Superman even stated that Subjekt was getting stronger as they fought. Then he came back and was dressed like a samurai for some reason, it looked like he let Supes win, so he could justify Superman choosing the humans over him.
What are you talking about? They fought, and Subjeck 17 kept shouting I'll break you, and hurts me(in Serbain). He was obviously getting hurt by Superman. Not only that, but Superman also didn't want to hurt him. In addition, Superman was busy trying to save the people. After Superman dropped him, he was dazed out.

They fought later on. Superman found his weakness, and Superman was just about to break his arm when he was teleported out.

BA via face rip.

Superman Vol 1 655
Superman Vol 1 656
Superman 662 - Weight of the World
Superman 667 -Tide and Torrent

And Subjekt 17 is more than a match for Supes.

Originally posted by KingD19
Superman Vol 1 655
Superman Vol 1 656
Superman 662 - Weight of the World
Superman 667 -Tide and Torrent

And Subjekt 17 is more than a match for Supes.
No, Superman has found his weakness rather fast. Superman is clearly more durable. There strength and speed at fight is pretty even. Though, Superman already beat him twice. Superman killed him the 2nd fight.

BA cruises to an easy victory.

Don't ask me how his magic works. Its Magic.

barker

Darkseid owned BA's gods. Magicians and gods tend to get dominated by DS.

I doubt DS can match The Brute Force, Range and Ferocity of a Bloodlusted Spectre.

For DS to win he'd have to destroy the elements which power Teth Adam.
He'd probably need the ALE and a Direct Line to YAHWEH to have a shot at pulling off such a feat.

Without Prep DS goes down Hard after a valiant struggle. With Prep he can make the fight last longer.

Originally posted by shiv
I doubt DS can match The Brute Force, Range and Ferocity of a Bloodlusted Spectre.

No, he can't, but neither can Black Adam, so the point is completely moot.

Also, the rest of your post was complete bullshit, so I didn't both responding to the rest.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
darkseid's power dips down to fight superman.

agreed

Originally posted by batdude123
No, he can't, but neither can Black Adam, so the point is completely moot.

Also, the rest of your post was complete bullshit, so I didn't both responding to the rest.

Why the hostility.



Would you prefer it if I said the character has a static powersetting with two applicataions; flying fast and punching stuff

Originally posted by psycho gundam
darkseid's power dips down to fight superman.

Obviously.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
darkseid's power dips down to fight superman. lmao.

Originally posted by -Pr-
superman holds back against marvel too.

and it isn't just about being a poster boy. he is genuinely that powerful.

Ummmm nothing to do with holding back at all really. On panel words and actions prove that supes considers Marvel his equal and in some cases even talked up Marvel because of his magical abilities. So, it's not a holding back issue but that is just how DC views them, which has been shown over and over again. However, we know that BA basically owns Marvel and yet people say Supes walks through BA... the same BA who trashes Marvel and has the same magical advantage... lol right.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummmm nothing to do with holding back at all really. On panel words and actions prove that supes considers Marvel his equal and in some cases even talked up Marvel because of his magical abilities. So, it's not a holding back issue but that is just how DC views them, which has been shown over and over again. However, we know that BA basically owns Marvel and yet people say Supes walks through BA... the same BA who trashes Marvel and has the same magical advantage... lol right. Superman considers everyone stronger then him. He views John stronger then the entire JLA. He says Icon's hit was the strongest he felt...etc. He always thinks highly of people.

However, all this is proven wrong when it comes to down the fights and the feats.

As Juntai once put it, Superman calls lots of people his equals, until he decides he's not and outperforms them all.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman considers everyone stronger then him. He views John stronger then the entire JLA. He says Icon's hit was the strongest he felt...etc. He always thinks highly of people.

However, all this is proven wrong when it comes to down the fights and the feats.

Ummm... your saying you don't think the fights between Marvel and Supes confirm that they are near equals? I think their fights match supes words.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm... your saying you don't think the fights between Marvel and Supes confirm that they are near equals? I think their fights match supes words.
No, Superman is obviously the superior one, but Marvel has an advantage.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, Superman is obviously the superior one, but Marvel has an advantage.


huh? Do their fights match supes words that they are equals and Marvel has the magical advantage. Supes own words coupled with their encounters seems to show that very thing.

Marvel and/or Black Adam can give Superman a lot to handle, that doesn't necessary mean that Superman is not superior, or is holding back.

It's seems like a radical concept to some to consider someone your peer and yet be that bit stronger, faster and more durable.

All this merely shows is that the man is fallible.

Originally posted by Allankles
Marvel and/or Black Adam can give Superman a lot to handle, that doesn't necessary mean that Superman is not superior, or is holding back.

It's seems like a radical concept to some to consider someone your peer and yet be that bit stronger, faster and more durable.

All this merely shows is that the man is fallible.

All can be true no doubt. I personally would give the edge to supes in a one v one encounter against Marvel. However, it would be very close and Marvel would take some wins. The point I was making is that it isn't JUST Supes words... When they have had encounters his words have shown to be true. DC clearly feels they are roughly equal with Marvel having the Magical edge and Supes will say as the Dynamic/poster boy edge. The point is, I was simply saying.. BA trashes Marvel in their encounters and to think Supes would walk through BA is laughable.

These are the likely responses to this post:

You're talking out of your ass

You don't know what you're talking about

What you said is complete bullshit

etc




Anyhow. It is Proven Superman Holds back. Orion for example is a legitimate match for Superman at rest, but when not Holding back or as the expression goes; when stepping up Superman functions at a level where Orion cannot compete physically.


The same is true for Black Adam.
Black Adam has demonstrated more Than Any Other Marvel that he can magically amp himself through diverting Energy from Existing Marvels, Gods.. The Rock and its Artifacts to add to his existing power.

When we debate Thanos/Deadpool on KMC we take into account External sources which govern their powerset for example: Death and her Decree.

When we Debate Black Adam there is a reluctance to acknowledge in full the external aspects which drive his power.

In a Forum Fight Without The "responsibility" of sharing power with The Marvels DS and Superman working as a dynamic duo do not have enough In the Armoury To Survive a Forum Fight With BA.

Superman holds back against Black Adam.

BA is not actually equal to Superman... we have to look at Superman's high feats, and it becomes obvious. Even though BA really has no low feats... and his high feats range from ripping off Amazo's head, beating up Shazam Billy, to tearing through Spectre...

Uh dunno, this thread kind of gives me the 'wats?'. I can see Darkseid being given the win, but to go out of your way to try and prove Superman when fighting Darkseid>>>anyone close to him? It kind of gets, what's the word, weird?

Originally posted by Blanket
.

BA is not actually equal to Superman...



BA really has no low feats... and his high feats range from ripping off Amazo's head, beating up Shazam Billy, to tearing through Spectre...

Uh dunno, this thread kind of gives me the 'wats?'.

BA has an open Powerset and draws Energy on an ad hoc basis From external power sources.

Originally posted by Blanket
Superman holds back against Black Adam.

BA is not actually equal to Superman... we have to look at Superman's high feats, and it becomes obvious. Even though BA really has no low feats... and his high feats range from ripping off Amazo's head, beating up Shazam Billy, to tearing through Spectre...

Uh dunno, this thread kind of gives me the 'wats?'. I can see Darkseid being given the win, but to go out of your way to try and prove Superman when fighting Darkseid>>>anyone close to him? It kind of gets, what's the word, weird?

Well you see, to me all the feats supes has doesn't give him the automatic win over people. For example, Supes has way more strength feats then Galactus, Thanos, Juggs, Mangog, Doomsday etc etc yet do I think Supes is stronger then any of the above named... not really. If we go by feats we could then say he's obviously 10000000 x times stronger then them. Problem is, those types of strength feats aren't the be all, end all proof of strength superiority. So, how does being DC's poster boy and HAVING to do incredible feats on the regular to come out on top, mean we just forget that is the case and why that happens. Do we forget that really Supes shouldn't be able to beat people he does but does so because he's the poster boy. People like to act like this doesn't factor in but it does. People then say oooo well supes has the strength feats to beat basically EVERYONE and then come to the conclusion he's stronger then anyone? I for one don't feel that way or think just that way.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well you see, to me all the feats supes has doesn't give him the automatic win over people. For example, Supes has way more strength feats then Galactus, Thanos, Juggs, Mangog, Doomsday etc etc yet do I think Supes is stronger then any of the above named... not really. If we go by feats we could then say he's obviously 10000000 x times stronger then them. Problem is, those types of strength feats aren't the be all, end all proof of strength superiority. So, how does being DC's poster boy and HAVING to do incredible feats on the regular to come out on top, mean we just forget that is the case and why that happens. Do we forget that really Supes shouldn't be able to beat people he does but does so because he's the poster boy. People like to act like this doesn't factor in but it does. People then say oooo well supes has the strength feats to beat basically EVERYONE and then come to the conclusion he's stronger then anyone? I for one don't feel that way or think just that way.
Here is a good example:

Most people Superman fight are his peers. Though, he doesn't attempt to kill them. He is usually trying to reason with them. There are only a few character he doesn't try to reason with(DD, DS).

Look for he did against Subjekt 17. He killed him, and S17 admitted that Superman changed when he is start to have a cold heart. In their first encounter they were more even, but soon after Superman outclassed him.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, what I said didn't express your sentiment in the above post of yours you quoted? I think the jist of what I said matches pretty close to what you said.

Superman has to rise to the occasion to win as he is DC's poster boy. I'm not really sure how him doing that someone means that his fights with Marvel and supes own words are discounted. Supes rising to the occasion and having to save the day while villians seem to get a bad case of CIS and thus supes wins somehow means Supes dominates Marvel? Not in my opinion.

Jesus.

I said that eventough Superman calls many people his equals, when facing powerfull enemies he outperformes them and rises above his normal level, proving to be superior.

You then brought up something I said in another thread, that Captain Marvel will always be portrayed as near Superman physicall wise, in an attempt to make it seem like I'm contradicting myself when, in fact, you failed to mention that in the same post, I mentioned the exact same ideea I did here, that when faced against more powerfull opponents he rises above his normal (ie where Captain Marvel is placed at) level and outperforms any of his previous 'peers'.

And now you go 'didinotsaythesamething?' dur

You're quite the bright one, aren't you ?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummmm nothing to do with holding back at all really. On panel words and actions prove that supes considers Marvel his equal and in some cases even talked up Marvel because of his magical abilities. So, it's not a holding back issue but that is just how DC views them, which has been shown over and over again. However, we know that BA basically owns Marvel and yet people say Supes walks through BA... the same BA who trashes Marvel and has the same magical advantage... lol right.

facepalm

context?

physically, marvel is considered his equal (and possibly superior). when it comes to everything else, superman has an advantage. that's why superman said TOE TO TOE, rather than in general.

get it right next time.

Originally posted by Blanket
Superman holds back against Black Adam.

BA is not actually equal to Superman... we have to look at Superman's high feats, and it becomes obvious. Even though BA really has no low feats... and his high feats range from ripping off Amazo's head, beating up Shazam Billy, to tearing through Spectre...

Uh dunno, this thread kind of gives me the 'wats?'. I can see Darkseid being given the win, but to go out of your way to try and prove Superman when fighting Darkseid>>>anyone close to him? It kind of gets, what's the word, weird?

It's not so much that he doesn't hold back as it is to him not going all-out. Like I said, in his normal portrayal, Captain Marvel and Black Adam are his peers.

Oversimplifying it ? We're not using high showings but pointing out how Superman was shown to be. His powerlevel is dependent on his mindset. Also, lulz at you complaining that we use high showings when you form an argument using Black Adam's highest ones.

BA > Supes

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Mindset
BA > Supes

Deal with it.

Originally posted by Blanket
He mentioned he wasn't holding back against Adam who never wanted to fight him... and then got pissed at him.

Ya, you are using high showings.
It's like saying that Surfer is way above everyone his level in Marvel just because he has crushed people threatening the universe/multiverse... when Surfer needed to save it.

You missed da point. And no I wasn't forming an argument, it was an observation. I was saying that Black Adam also has high showings, but they're seemingly ignored, in favor of Superman's high showings time when he needs to shine...

Yeah, he did. And I already mentioned that him not holding back (ie. being carefull not to break something) is not the same as going all-out.

How is pointing out that on-panel Superman's mindset affects his battle performance and that he is capable of reaching levels far above his normal one while going into a motivated, all-out mode using high-showings ?
It's far from being the same thing.

No, I didn't miss the point. You don't seem to understand that I, along with a few other persons, are just pointing out how Superman's power works, depending on his mindset, while you go into a 'you're just using his high feats!' stance. I guess that just shows you missed the point.

Let's put it simply. It is a known fact that Superman, while at his normal level, is a peer with Captain Marvel/Black Adam and others. Are you arguing that when in his all-out mode, Superman doesn't increase his battle performance/powerlevel and outperforms persons who were his peers previously ?

Originally posted by Blanket
oh?

Because you're using this 'mindset' to justify the showings that others would call high (while you're saying stuff like it being above people of his level of course)? Especially when you're using this 'mindset' to make Superman far above his peers.
"Darkseid would beat Black Adam"
"Superman beat him"
"Superman was in the zone though, irrelevant. Darkseid is far above BA"
All in all, it seems more like an attempt to not injure the rep of people Superman beat... but I digress.

Is that how his powers work in comics, or is that how his feats get justified? Because, it just seems like an excuse to explain that his feats are acceptable without calling them high, and while giving him another level of power.
Unless there's panels explaining that his powers drastically increase with his mindset, of course.

Actually, you did miss the point of what I said, btw. I was merely mentioning that BA also has high showings if we go the route of high showings. Because I'm not under the assumption that his power drastically increases... unless a comic comes along and says it, then I'll gladly accept.

Of course an all-out mode peer would beat a non-all out mode peer, and will outperform them (it's the same reason Black Adam seems above Billy). However, I would like to see his peers attempt the same stuff that supporters call impossible for them.
Also, I agree that Superman will fight better/smarter, however, I don't agree with the power level part.

In Apokolips Now! Darkseid specifically stated that Superman is stronger than usual. Seeing his proven dynamic powerlevel dependent on his mental state, I don't see what exactly is the problem in saying that when fighting Darkseid, Superman ups his powerlevel compared to what he is usually portrayed.

Yes, that is how his powers work. Superman was specifically shown as limiting his powerlevel to the point where he does it on a subconscious level and depending on the mindset he is in, he can go from struggling against an opponent to completly destroying the same kind of opponents en-masse, like in Our Worlds at War, where not only did he outperform the whole Justice League (Martian "He's stronger than the whole league combined!' Manhunter, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern among them) but he outperformed his previous performance aswell once he changed his mentality.

We were talking about how Superman has been shown fluctuate his powerlevel depending on his mindset, and thus Darkseid's performance against Superman shouldn't be held against him. You come in and go all 'Why is everybody using only high showings for Superman ?! LOOK, Black Adam has high showings too!!11 Why ignore them ?!' and you're telling me that I'm missing the point ? Lulz.

You don't have to agree with anything. It is stated that Superman fluctuates his powerlevel in accordance with his mental state, and shown in combat when he vastly outperforms his previous performance & the performance of his supposed peers in combat when he goes into an all-out mindset. Period.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A few questions then Philo...

1. So, your reasoning on why Superman always pulls off these things he shouldn't is because once he changes his mindset to an all out mode he over comes the odds? Interesting... explaining how he could defeat... DS, Imperiex, Mandrakk or (insert much higher being here). That is about right correct?

I only read this, and realize that you are much too bright for me.

Some other time then.

Edit: I read the 'He's DC's poster boy!' ahem.. argument.. from the next paragraph aswell. Yeah, definitley too bright.

You're certainly slamming some logic and common sense alright. Slamming it with a baseball bat in the face.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
2. Yet, you don't think that maybe it's not him changing his mindset per se but the fact that he's DC's poster and has to win somehow. I'm unclear how you don't see that as a correlation on how he can do some of the things he can. In movies, comic book or whatever the hero is going to do stuff he really can't do or should do for the sake of the story and a good ending. Yet your discounting this and going with... well he just changes his mindset and thus he can conquer all? I'm sorry but I can't ignore common sense. Funny that you do though lol.

this kills your point altogether, and shows just how little superman you must actually read.

Re BA

The Power of Aton Magically Amps up all of BA's existing powers when summoned.

Superman isn't the only one who can step up to a higher level powerset.

superman isnt in this thread

so darkseid beats BA.

PS- SUPES>BA

Originally posted by -Pr-
this kills your point altogether, and shows just how little superman you must actually read.

How does it kill my point?

Based on powersets and people fighting at peak levels and throwing out PIS and CIS you don't think Supes beats people he probably shouldn't in comics? Really? You think Superman being DC's poster boy and hero of the story has nothing to do with him coming out on top and beating people he probably shouldn't? This kills my whole point and this isn't the case with Superman and DC? Please, then enlighten me on how this isn't true and how it must be how little I read of superman?

Originally posted by r0nm0n88
superman isnt in this thread

so darkseid beats BA.

PS- SUPES>BA

How would Supes defeat Black Adam.

Shiv, that would be relevant if it was BA vs Thor or BA vs Superman (if Superman wasn't allowed to amp), basically his peers.

It really wouldn't matter against DS seeing as he's already two or more Atons in one, and can amp other beings to higher power levels if he so chooses.

Also it should be pointed out BA's amp has limits because he derives it from another god. DS is already a god with his own power source.

Superman's power source also varies in that regard to BA's because there's no set upper limit to how much power he'll unlock (he's getting stronger as he ages).

Originally posted by Allankles
.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
A few questions then Philo...

1. So, your reasoning on why Superman always pulls off these things he shouldn't is because once he changes his mindset to an all out mode he over comes the odds? Interesting... explaining how he could defeat... DS, Imperiex, Mandrakk or (insert much higher being here). That is about right correct?

2. Yet, you don't think that maybe it's not him changing his mindset per se but the fact that he's DC's poster and has to win somehow. I'm unclear how you don't see that as a correlation on how he can do some of the things he can. In movies, comic book or whatever the hero is going to do stuff he really can't do or should do for the sake of the story and a good ending. Yet your discounting this and going with... well he just changes his mindset and thus he can conquer all? I'm sorry but I can't ignore common sense. Funny that you do though lol.

3. So, then by your theory... in a vs match and I put Supes going all out vs. lets say Galactus or Arishem or Tyrant or Odin or Thanos etc etc. you would then pick supes correct? As you point out, supes just has to change his mindset and he because super duper man and can make anything happen. That is your reasoning for him beating people he has no busy beating right? So, then that would apply to him fighting the above people?

Now if you say no he doesn't beat them.. well then now you get my point. You can't just say well Supes is their equal but chooses to change his mind frame and thus clearly their superior. When really on this forum in particular we factor in PIS and CIS and understand sometimes characters are given more feats and slack then others. We understand Superman is the ultimate hero and is going to win even if he shouldn't based on power sets of the people involved. Your choosing to discount this little fact and just pass it off to a different level supes. Sure, he has such a level and can and should rise to the occasion at times. Sure, he could get really pissed and trash Marvel. However, Marvel could and should also have that same ability. Point is, you can't just pass off blatant bias to a particular character or slack he's given in order to save the day and pass it off as well he just changed his mind set lol. It's like the other day when you comments on Superman 1 million and said well even though he doesn't have feats we don't need to see feats to know his power set is beyond ___ (don't remember who) Yet, with Superman and in this situation you choose to ignore supes own words and on panel evidence and go with well he just didn't change his mindset.

Marvel has shown to be supes equal time and time again. He's even shown to be his superior thanks to magic and supes own words about confrontations. Then we have someone who mops the floor with Marvel and has that same magical ability except more ruthless and you say well supes just needs to change his mind set and he's superior... Aren't you one who likes to go past the surface of things and look at exactly why these things are happening? We know Galactus power set is above Supes.. We know other characters supes beats are beyond his power set based on logic and facts. Yet you want to throw all that out the window and be like well Supes has beaten so and so and all because he changed his mindset. It couldn't possibly be that he's suppose to win and DC will make that happen despite who should win? I'm guessing you were absent when they were passing out common sense and logic. Funny how sometimes you choose to look at the bigger picture and not just feats and other times go.. look Supes feats are Th3 Ult1mat3!!!! he wins lol.
You are confusing the plot with what a character does in a plot.

DS and Superman's power source is BA.

Originally posted by Allankles
Shiv, that would be relevant if it was BA vs Thor or BA vs Superman (if Superman wasn't allowed to amp), basically his peers.

It really wouldn't matter against DS seeing as he's already two or more Atons in one, and can amp other beings to higher power levels if he so chooses.

There are no limits on how many Atons BA can summon.

Black Adam can also Amp other beings to higher power levels if he chooses.

Black Adam is a herald of other gods, he doesn't own the power, he's borrowing it. And it doesn't matter how many times he can summon Aton. BA's power is limited to what Aton has and gives. And Darkseid is more powerful than Aton.

Superman has no such limits, as solar radiation (from all stars save red stars) unlock more of his power with constant exposure. Making him grow stronger with every day he's exposed to this radiation.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummmm nothing to do with holding back at all really. On panel words and actions prove that supes considers Marvel his equal and in some cases even talked up Marvel because of his magical abilities. So, it's not a holding back issue but that is just how DC views them, which has been shown over and over again. However, we know that BA basically owns Marvel and yet people say Supes walks through BA... the same BA who trashes Marvel and has the same magical advantage... lol right.

True statements. If anything, Marvel>Supes do to on panel statements, showing, and fights.

Superman admitted twice that he cant stand up to Captain Marvel. Superman admitted that he couldnt even move adam out of the city and that he wasnt even holding back and this was against a adam that didnt throw not one punch, just tossed superman around.

As for the fight, Darkseid wins, he should be able to tackle adam and supes at the same time and still pull a majority.

Originally posted by Allankles
Black Adam is a herald of other gods, he doesn't own the power, he's borrowing it. And it doesn't matter how many times he can summon Aton. BA's power is limited to what Aton has and gives. And Darkseid is more powerful than Aton.

Superman has no such limits, as solar radiation (from all stars save red stars) unlock more of his power with constant exposure. Making him grow stronger with every day he's exposed to this radiation. only yellow phase stars feed him. orange, brown, white, and blue don't empower him.

Originally posted by carver9
True statements. If anything, Marvel>Supes do to on panel statements, showing, and fights.

Superman admitted twice that he cant stand up to Captain Marvel. Superman admitted that he couldnt even move adam out of the city and that he wasnt even holding back and this was against a adam that didnt throw not one punch, just tossed superman around.

As for the fight, Darkseid wins, he should be able to tackle adam and supes at the same time and still pull a majority.
please post where Superman stated that he can't stand up to CM. Every version of Superman usually beats CM.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
only yellow phase stars feed him. orange and down - and white/blue and up don't empower him.

Blue actually empowers him more than yellow because it's a younger star.

And orange empowers him as well. It empowered the Kryptonians when they were still conquering other civilizations, it empowered them to a lesser extent than yellow.

This is all info from the last 7 years of Superman comics.

no scans = you're lying!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
please post where Superman stated that he can't stand up to CM. Every version of Superman usually beats CM.

Superman admitted numerous of times that he cant go toe to toe with cap. Superman admitted (even stronger personas) that Captain marvel is faster than him and is physically everything he is.

Lets also not forget that Captain Marvels hold back 90% of the time also. Lets also not forget what Eclipso said about Captain Marvel and Supes.

Originally posted by Mindset
no scans = you're lying!

I could probably get the scans for the orange sun since it's at an organized place.

It's from the "3rd Kryptonian" story arc from 3 yrs back. Where a pre-destruction (pre-isolation) Kryptonian recounts her time as a soldier in the Kryptonian empire. As you know Krypton conquered many systems before the science council recalled all the expansionists back to Krypton. She talks about being empowered in a system with an orange sun.

The Blue star feat is from further back and I've too sort through a big mess to find it - you'll just have to take my word for it.

Originally posted by Allankles
Black Adam is a herald of other gods, he doesn't own the power, he's borrowing it. And it doesn't matter how many times he can summon Aton. BA's power is limited to what Aton has and gives. And Darkseid is more powerful than Aton.

Superman has no such limits, as solar radiation (from all stars save red stars) unlock more of his power with constant exposure. Making him grow stronger with every day he's exposed to this radiation.

Aton Amplifies His Other Powers Accross the Board.

Aton does not Give BA his great Strength/Speed/etc It is a completely seperate element which has a seperate aspect which serves to elevate a beings existing Powerset when summoned.

With specific reference to his physical characteristics Aton is a Multiplier effect with an undisclosed factor available To BA to use as fits his purpose.

Thus Beings empowered by BA can draw energy from Aton Without Weakening either Aton Or Adam.

With Magic sometimes 1 -1 = 1 and 1 X 1= 5 Thousand.

ABC logic its not. It's Magic.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman admitted numerous of times that he cant go toe to toe with cap. Superman admitted (even stronger personas) that Captain marvel is faster than him and is physically everything he is.

Lets also not forget that Captain Marvels hold back 90% of the time also. Lets also not forget what Eclipso said about Captain Marvel and Supes.
Like I said scans.
Superman admitted that CM has an advantage, but I don't see how that means Superman losses to CM in a fight using all their powers.

CM doesn't hold back 90% of the time. That's just your opinion. Besides Superman holds back more

Didn't Superman beat CM?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Like I said scans.
Superman admitted that CM has an advantage, but I don't see how that means Superman losses to CM in a fight using all their powers.

CM doesn't hold back 90% of the time. That's just your opinion. Besides Superman holds back more

Didn't Superman beat CM?

Superman/Batman comic and also include every one of there fights along with that.

Captain Marvel always hold back, especially against superman, the person who is think is the savior of the entire planet (read what he say during his fight with eclipso, when eclipso takes supes body).

Yes, Supes has taken down Captain Marvel but in all of there fight Cap has won the majority.

lol this darkseid vs BA turned into SUPES VS CAP

This is crazy, we all know when its time for supes to get serious cap is done. He can hang, and even have the advantage when supes is being his regular holding back self. Otherwise cap loses.

Originally posted by r0nm0n88
lol this darkseid vs BA turned into SUPES VS CAP

This is crazy, we all know when its time for supes to get serious cap is done. He can hang, and even have the advantage when supes is being his regular holding back self. Otherwise cap loses.

So when superman said that he wasnt holding back against black adam he was lying?

And lets not forget, Adam wasnt even serious whereas supes couldnt even move him out of his area.

Originally posted by Blanket
He says he has grown strong... probably because Darkseid used to backhand his ass all over the place. And yes, Superman has grown strong.

Oh, proven?

Or Superman doesn't hold back. He already has the strength of 'Small'seid, add in speed, HV, intelligence, fighting skills, hell even freeze breath played a part, and I don't see how it's impossible for 'normal' Supes. And no, I'm not saying that CM can beat him, because he doesn't use/have the tactics that Superman used/uses (deflected OE, and using speed to hit it back at him, etc), but that doesn't mean that this makes Billy far below Superman, or that Billy can never hope to match him serious. It just means that he can't beat an opponent that Superman can.
Adam on the other hand, would rape Darkseid's face.

It seems more like Superman just doesn't holding back...

You're using sketchy examples to speculate he ups his power completely...

Well no shit he can do more damage than them. He's more powerful than them. The only way they can = the damage he could, is if they actually did combine... not just by fighting as a team.

And could that be that he was not holding back anymore? It makes it pretty clear that he's not holding back at all/gained Doomsday's view, it doesn't say his powers suddenly increased.

Because I don't feel he can just think his way above 'peers' of his? Therefore, they equal high showings to me (assuming the feats are way out of CM/BA's league). IE, everyone has high showings. They don't decide a thread.

Also, this is what you previously said:
"Also, lulz at you complaining that we use high showings when you form an argument using Black Adam's highest ones."

Which means you missed the point of what I said, and are now changing your meaning of it. You started off laughing at a supposed hypocrisy, but have since changed it to me missing the point. Fact is, the two don't intertwine, even if I did miss the point of something.

That is, if we really want to argue about shit...

Schlong?

No it hasn't. The only thing stated you brought an example of, was when he entered the Doomsday mind of violence. And it cays he cuts loose/gains confidence, not that by just a thought he can totally up his power levels. He wasn't holding back, he wasn't worried about fighting with the weaker Mongul, he wasn't trying to find weaknesses, and he wasn't still under the 'tutelage' of Mongul, he was just trying to destroy them.

Peers? Who, Martian Manhunter, and WW? It should be obvious by now that MM isn't above Superman, besides what he himself says, and WW... well, we've seen what Superman can do to her.

In a nutshell, I think of non holding back Supes as being the one who is 'equal' to Billy/Majestic (although Superman admittedly is a lot more well rounded than Billy). uh dunno, that's just how I've always seen it.
When 'Mindset' Superman is confirmed with proof, then I'll accept him as being able to SS up past his peers with thoughts.

Probably missing something...

I'm going to hate saying this but good post. Lets not even forget the time that supes stated on panel that he never felt anything like Captain Marvel powers when he joined bodies with him. He was amazed at what cap had to offer by saying that he never felt power like that before.

Also, didnt eclipso say that Captain Marvel is more powerful than Supes.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm going to hate saying this but good post. Shit, Carver agrees with me... must be wrong.

Originally posted by carver9
Lets not even forget the time that supes stated on panel that he never felt anything like Captain Marvel powers when he joined bodies with him. He was amazed at what cap had to offer by saying that he never felt power like that before. Because Cap is magical mayhaps?

Originally posted by carver9
Also, didnt eclipso say that Captain Marvel is more powerful than Supes. Uh dunno.

All I know is that you can't really put too much stock into statements like that. It's purely the author's way of hyping up the reader.

Originally posted by carver9
Also, didnt eclipso say that Captain Marvel is more powerful than Supes.
Scans please! If not then tell me the issue. I'll reread it myself.


Superman and Batman comics don't count. Superman holds back against everyone even those who try and kill him. Superman has beaten CM in any version of comic.

Originally posted by carver9
I'm going to hate saying this but good post. Lets not even forget the time that supes stated on panel that he never felt anything like Captain Marvel powers when he joined bodies with him. He was amazed at what cap had to offer by saying that he never felt power like that before.
Superman has proven that likes to think highly of others. He believes MM is stronger then JLA combined. He stated Icon hit him the hardest. He says subjekt 17 is faster and stronger.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Scans please! If not then tell me the issue. I'll reread it myself.


Superman and Batman comics don't count. Superman holds back against everyone even those who try and kill him. Superman has beaten CM in any version of comic.

Kc supes admitted that cap is > him. Look at that fight again.

Kc supes also admitted that he couldnt keep up with flash and asked billy to do it because he was faster.

Current supes admitted also that he's the only one that has the speed to keep up with flash during the time they flew around the world at light speed to hit the clock tower.

Why cant we take superman/Batman foreal, it happened.

Lets not even forget the two times Cap one shotted supes.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman has proven that likes to think highly of others. He believes MM is stronger then JLA combined. He stated Icon hit him the hardest. He says subjekt 17 is faster and stronger.

Martian manhunter is stronger but he doesnt possess the fighting mentality that supes has OR the fighting experience. Martian is a waste, he has all that power and does sh** with it.

The other statements that you brought up, its up to you to prove that its not true.

Originally posted by carver9
Martian manhunter is stronger but he doesnt possess the fighting mentality that supes has OR the fighting experience. Martian is a waste, he has all that power and does sh** with it.

The other statements that you brought up, its up to you to prove that its not true.
Superman killed Subjekt in a straight out fight. MM is not stronger then the JLA. He is as strong, or nearly as strong as Superman. He admitted that in GL:44. MM has started to use his powers correctly.


Funny, Superman easily matched him blow for blow. Superman was just about to take him out when he shouted Shazam. Even then Superman defeat CM. I also want to know where Superman stated that Cap>him.


Yet, Superman beats Flash in a race. Yet, Superman has the feats? Also, what issue??



I am not sure, but I think it's not canon. I mean if you do then Superman beat the living crap out of Diana.



When? You mean when Superman wasn't looking? wasn't expecting it? I think you have to remember that Superman already beat CM.

BTW, I am still waiting on those scans, or issue #.

That thing about Supes saying Captain Marvel was faster was in Justice, not in Kingdom Come. Justice was a self-contained story as far as I can tell.

Originally posted by Juntai
That thing about Supes saying Captain Marvel was faster was in Justice, not in Kingdom Come. Justice was a self-contained story as far as I can tell. Yes, I remember. I read the issue 2 weeks ago. Though, that didn't prove nothing.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How does it kill my point?

Based on powersets and people fighting at peak levels and throwing out PIS and CIS you don't think Supes beats people he probably shouldn't in comics? Really? You think Superman being DC's poster boy and hero of the story has nothing to do with him coming out on top and beating people he probably shouldn't? This kills my whole point and this isn't the case with Superman and DC? Please, then enlighten me on how this isn't true and how it must be how little I read of superman?

you're missing the grand point of all of it. superman isn't like OTHER posterboys. his powerset is an integral part of why he's able to do what he does. he's not wolverine. he genuinely is that powerful. he might have the power because he's that popular a character, but the power is still there. it's part of his powerset, and has been for quite a while.

Originally posted by carver9

Superman admitted twice that he cant stand up to Captain Marvel. Superman admitted that he couldnt even move adam out of the city and that he wasnt even holding back and this was against a adam that didnt throw not one punch, just tossed superman around.

no, not one punch. TWO. it's not nearly what you're saying it is, so quit it. he wasn't holding back his strength the rest of his powers weren't mentioned. stop bloody twisting things.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_04.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_12-1.jpg

or, pray tell, do you mean a different fight?

Originally posted by carver9
Also, didnt eclipso say that Captain Marvel is more powerful than Supes.

no, he didn't, he wanted a magical vessel to inhabit. also, eclipso is weakened by sunlight. what empowers superman? sunlight.

superman admitted cap had an advantage toe to toe because of his magic. he didn't say cap was better or stronger or more powerful. if he fights the kryptonite man toe to toe, the kryptonite man has an advantage because he radiates kryptonite, not because he's stronger or faster.

and if you try to bring up the jla arc with the imps as evidence of supes being one shotted by cap, i swear to god i'll ban you myself.

Originally posted by -Pr-

and if you try to bring up the jla arc with the imps as evidence of supes being one shotted by cap, i swear to god i'll ban you myself.
isn't that cannon?

PC superman punching BA with his "best blow"

http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=ac023_marvelduo1.jpg#

http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=39432_marvelduo2.jpg#

http://img138.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=2a9d2_marvelduo3.jpg#

kudos to prep man for scans

Originally posted by ankur29
PC superman punching BA with his "best blow"

http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=ac023_marvelduo1.jpg#

http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=39432_marvelduo2.jpg#

http://img138.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=2a9d2_marvelduo3.jpg#

kudos to prep man for scan

yeah, that's just not black adam. that's Pre-crisis black adam as well. someone who is a lot more powerful than current adam.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
yeah, that's just not black adam. that's Pre-crisis black adam as well. someone who is a lot more powerful than current adam.

cool , so both are equally weaker

Originally posted by ankur29
cool , so both are equally weaker

Check your PM's, bud.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yes, I remember. I read the issue 2 weeks ago. Though, that didn't prove nothing.

that was a good comic

alex ross ftw

Originally posted by -Pr-
and if you try to bring up the jla arc with the imps as evidence of supes being one shotted by cap, i swear to god i'll ban you myself.

hysterical

LMAO! I died when I read this.

Beware everyone, don't bring up low showings of Superman, against Pr, or he'll BAN you!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yet, Superman beats Flash in a race.

What Flash are we talking about? Post Crisis his never beaten the Flash, and it's shown that Wally West is on another level. Also, apparently back in the day, Barry Allen held back because it was charity or some sort if we count it as an indication of Pre-Crisis events.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What Flash are we talking about? Post Crisis his never beaten the Flash, and it's shown that Wally West is on another level. Also, apparently back in the day, Barry Allen held back because it was charity or some sort if we count it as an indication of Pre-Crisis events.

Superman beat Flash in a race. All-Star Superman vs Flash #5. pretty cool issue, too.

Originally posted by ankur29
isn't that cannon?

PC superman punching BA with his "best blow"

http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=ac023_marvelduo1.jpg#

http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=39432_marvelduo2.jpg#

http://img138.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=2a9d2_marvelduo3.jpg#

kudos to prep man for scans

it's not a one shot. its a cheap shot.

also, pre crisis doesn't apply.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
hysterical

LMAO! I died when I read this.

Beware everyone, don't bring up low showings of Superman, against Pr, or he'll BAN you!



i'm just tired of the cycle repeating over and over

though, being cheap shotted while not trying to fight back isn't really a low feat...

Lol. That was still pretty funny. I lol'd hard.

Well, Superman still sucks. He was one shotted by Konvict and Thor would stop his ass.

Wait. Oh shit. Don't ban me. shocklaugh

Heh. Remember, you started splitting this into different quotes.

Originally posted by Blanket
He says he has grown strong... probably because Darkseid used to backhand his ass all over the place. And yes, Superman has grown strong.

Oh, proven?

Or Superman doesn't hold back. He already has the strength of 'Small'seid, add in speed, HV, intelligence, fighting skills, hell even freeze breath played a part, and I don't see how it's impossible for 'normal' Supes. And no, I'm not saying that CM can beat him, because he doesn't use/have the tactics that Superman used/uses (deflected OE, and using speed to hit it back at him, etc), but that doesn't mean that this makes Billy far below Superman, or that Billy can never hope to match him serious. It just means that he can't beat an opponent that Superman can.
Adam on the other hand, would rape Darkseid's face.

It seems more like Superman just doesn't holding back..

Actually no, he didn't use to backhand his ass all over the place. You're probably reffering to the years-later published Superman Confidential series (I guess the author came from the future and wrote the 'You're stronger today' dialogue with that in mind ermm) but it's in a questionable continuity, or perhaps Cosmic Odyssey (if you do, then lulz) which is irrelevant either way because they had another fight less than two years from the Apokolips Now! fight where Darkseid certainly didn't 'slap his ass away'. Good strawman argument btw. Keep going.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanStronger.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanStronger2.jpg

Darkseid: "Damn you. You have grown strong..but I'll stop this nonsense with the Omega Effect, which is termination itself"

Superman: "Not today, Darkseid.."

Darkseid: "..can't..beat me..I'm--stronger.."

Superman: "No, today I'm stronger!".

Originally posted by Blanket
You're using sketchy examples to speculate he ups his power completely...

Well no shit he can do more damage than them. He's more powerful than them. The only way they can = the damage he could, is if they actually did combine... not just by fighting as a team.

And could that be that he was not holding back anymore? It makes it pretty clear that he's not holding back at all/gained Doomsday's view, it doesn't say his powers suddenly increased.


Sketchy examples ? Heh.

How is using a person directly stated to be as strong as Superman and/or as strong as the whole Justice League combined, by Superman himself no less, and him being completly outperformed by Superman in battle even when he has GL, Flash and Wonder Woman alongside him, a sketchy example ?

And, you know, I didn't underline that part so that you can throw a 'maybe he wasn't holding back' line.

Hmm.. I guess this is a Superman 'holding back' to you, eh?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbeMongul1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbeMongul2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbeMongul3.jpg

No, how about this one ? In here, it certainly seems as if he is holding back! dur]/csm]

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbe1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbe2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbe3.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbe4.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbe5.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanvsImperiexProbe6.jpg

Yeah, apparently it doesn't seem like Superman was in any kind of 'holding back' position when confronting them. Why are these example extremly relevant ? Because, as the scans show, in the first example he is only able to stun him while in the second scan, even while in a non-holding back state he barely manages to beat one. Now, what happens when he enters in a 'war' mentality and confronts the Imperiex Probes en-masse, alongside Doomsday ?

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanWarMentality1.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanWarMentality2.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanWarMentality3.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanWarMentality4.jpg

He completly destroys them. Not one, multiple and with ease. The last page is the most important one as it flat-out explains how much things have changed once he let go of all the emotion, once he completly changed his mindset.

"It has become primal. It has become second nature. Time has lost all meaning here in the depths of space. How long have they been making this trek ? Hours ? Days ? He has no ideea. Nor does he care, as this alliance with one of his deadliest adversaries has put him at war with his own conscience this being a war he can not afford to fight at the moment, he has put those numbing thoughts aside, numbing himself into the necessary state of violence. The destruction of so many probes has demonstrated an important lesson to him... that in war, emotion can hinder the ultimate goal.. to win."

And the most important part:

"As his partner is truly destruction personified, so he has become. And from the transformation..success. Far from the humanity he holds in such high measure, where the probes seemed far more deadly, he has cut loose. Subsequently the probes have offered little resistence. So he plows ahead, confident in his power. Confident in his mindset and his decisions. Ready to stare into the abyss without blinking for a moment. He thinks of Lois. Of his parents. But only for a moment. Such thoughts are dangerous.

Even more interesting is the fact that once he enters this mindset, the narration makes it quite clear that he could could engage Doomsday. "Every fiber in his body screams out to destroy this ..engine of pure destruction. He could make that choice right now, and who could blame him?" But he doesn't do it because he was necessary in order to fight against Imperiex.

In case this doesn't click, I'll expand on it. Superman went from barely being able to stun/defeat a probe with high difficulty to taking them en masse once he changes his mindset, along side Doomsday (Doomsday Wars Doomsday, a story where Doomsday was easily withstanding/beating the Justice League, Orion alongside them) while at the same time he is being implied to be able to engage and defeat him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it's not a one shot. its a cheap shot.

also, pre crisis doesn't apply.

You know this how?



Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm just tired of the cycle repeating over and over

Gatorade can solve your short term energy requirements

Originally posted by -Pr-
though, being cheap shotted while not trying to fight back isn't really a low feat...

Your fanboy is showing

(continued)
In fact, in the same period, it is clearly shown that Superman limits his powerlevel:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanPowersSurging.jpg

"I..almost couldn't stop myself. I..I could have killed you. I could feel it in me, my powers surging.
*Looks up the word surging*
Oh snapz.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanLimitingHimself.jpg

"I can't see that far with Earth's atmosphere blocking my view.
You could. You choose not to."

In fact, Superman has been shown to become completly human due to his mind only, both before this story, when Darkseid brainwashed him but, once he told him that he is his son he became powered-up and confronted Orion and after, in Up, Up and Away where he was blocking his powers from manifesting.

But yes Bran, it's obvious that Superman can't increase/decrease his powerlevel and performance by modifying his mindset. dur

Hold on, are you trying to argue, that Superman, can increase, his strength by willing it. Trying to argue that it's a legit power. Like say the Hulks?

And are you arguing this for Kryptonian's in general, or only Superman?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hold on, are you trying to argue, that Superman, can increase, his strength by willing it. Trying to argue that it's a legit power. Like say the Hulks?

And are you arguing this for Kryptonian's in general, or only Superman?

I'm arguing that Superman's powerlevel fluctuates depending on his mindset, so much that he can go from having high difficulties against one person (Imperiex Probes) to completly plowing through them en-masse and being suggested as capable of defeating a foe previously capable of easily defeating him and the Justice League (Doomsday). This goes in line with what was earlier established in the arc that Superman limits himself and that he can make his power 'surge' in the heat of the battle and that Superman subconsciously regulates his powerlevel. It's not so much as 'willing it' as it is to him changing his mindset and having his powerlevel and battle performance increase.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What Flash are we talking about? Post Crisis his never beaten the Flash, and it's shown that Wally West is on another level. Also, apparently back in the day, Barry Allen held back because it was charity or some sort if we count it as an indication of Pre-Crisis events. In Pre Crisis, Superman held back for Barry. It was noted on multiple occasions. Once, Superman passed ten times light speed and noted it was Barry's best. On multiple other occasions, Superman had feats far surpassing any of Barry Allen's.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So basically, the level of power Superman utilizes depends on his mindset. Meaning he limits himself. So in a sense, he simply stops holding back?

I mean, Superman being able to increase his power directly, by getting angrier, or having a more brutal attitude, isn't very.........logical for a lack of a better word.

Simply wondering what your pushing for. As Superman stresses he draws in more energy and gets more powerful, it was mentioned in the Ruin arc.
His mental blocks, both conscious and unconcious have been mentioned for years as limits to his otherwise unlimited power.

Originally posted by Juntai
In Pre Crisis, Superman held back for Barry. It was noted on multiple occasions. Once, Superman passed ten times light speed and noted it was Barry's best. On multiple other occasions, Superman had feats far surpassing Barry Allen.

I know all of that. Tell that to John's. According to him, Barry Allen was holding back. It was just a race for charity.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/th_SupermanStress.jpg

And I already told my stance in the answer to your first reply. What's the point of asking again ?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I know all of that. Tell that to John's. According to him, Barry Allen was holding back. It was just a race for charity. Oh yah? Rebirth a Pre-crisis book?
Really though, it doesn't matter what Barry suggested, he was talking about one race. Superman flat out showed us he was faster than Barry's max on multiple counts.

Originally posted by Juntai
As Superman stresses he draws in more energy and gets more powerful, it was mentioned in the Ruin arc.
His mental blocks, both conscious and unconcious have been mentioned for years as limits to his otherwise unlimited power.

As I recall, the more he stresses, the more energy he retains, from the Sun. We could use that as an explanation.

Does it apply to all Kryptonians? Logically it should.

I always viewed that it was a combination of blocks, meaning him holding back, and his ability to absorb Solar energy.

Otherwise unlimited power?

I lol'd hard. Are you serious with the unlimited part?

Originally posted by Juntai
Oh yah? Rebirth a Pre-crisis book?
Really though, it doesn't matter what Barry suggested, he was talking about one race. Superman flat out showed us he was faster than Barry's max on multiple counts.

It's obviously referring to their Pre-Crisis races. They have no other encounters?

Superman flat out refers to their races, and Barry states those were far charity, which they were? Was it a recton? Who knows?

I'm not arguing with that. I know that. Just saying that according to that book he held back. That's all.

uhuh

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
As I recall, the more he stresses, the more energy he retains, from the Sun. We could use that as an explanation.

Does it apply to all Kryptonians? Logically it should.

I always viewed that it was a combination of blocks, meaning him holding back, and his ability to absorb Solar energy.

Otherwise unlimited power?

I lol'd hard. Are you serious with the unlimited part? Yes, Superman's power has no known limit, growing exponentially, always.

Remember, he eventually becomes the powersource for the Superman dynasty.

Granted, that's a ways down the road, but that's the idea of unlimited, that it grows, without end.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yes, Superman's power has no known limit, growing exponentially, always.

Remember, he eventually becomes the powersource for the Superman dynasty.

Neither does' Hulk's or Thor's or Silver Surfer's. Their powers have been called unlimited on different occasions. Doesn't mean their powers are truly unlimited, or we take them to be.

Yes, potentially he can become Superman Prime. Who hasn't shown that his power is unlimited, either by the way.

Originally posted by Juntai
Granted, that's a ways down the road, but that's the idea of unlimited, that it grows, without end.

Uhuh.

Yah, a lot of that is hyperbole however, I'll give you an example.


Would you say Thor, minus Odin's power, is vastly stronger than his late 80's self by feats?

Would you say Hulk, is vastly stronger than he was in the late 80s, by feats?

Now,
Would you say Superman, is stronger than he was in the late 80s?



Who's power would you say grows more, faster, and without end?

Or we can take some of the future examples of the characters, is Maestro Hulk comparable to say Superman Prime?

etc, etc.

Originally posted by Juntai
Yah, a lot of that is hyperbole however, I'll give you an example.


Would you say Thor, minus Odin's power, is vastly stronger than his late 80's self by feats?

Would you say Hulk, is vastly stronger than he was in the late 80s, by feats?

Now,
Would you say Superman, is stronger than he was in the late 80s?

Who's power would you say grows more, faster, and without end?

Superman's power has grown more during the period of time. That of course can be attributed to the fact, that after the crisis, he was a hell of a lot weaker, so of course he grew a lot more powerful.

Originally posted by Juntai
Or we can take some of the future examples of the characters, is Maestro Hulk comparable to say Superman Prime?

etc, etc.

Lulz at the alternate reality possibilities as if they are some valid measuring stick. Green Scar is already shown to be superior to Maestro as far as I can tell.

Also, Maestro Hulk, didn't travel the Universe doing god knows what until like the 800th or so century, and then spend a few centuries, in a constant Gamma Energy producing Reactor constantly growing in strength.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Yes, potentially he can become Superman Prime. Who hasn't shown that his power is unlimited, either by the way. A lot of Prime's power was hyperbole, but the idea that his line merged with the Imps, and later down the road in the 700th Century, Superman came back and made them even more powerful than that by allowing them to access portions of his energy, speaks volumes. The intention was quite clear, and his power certainly hadn't been mentioned as having stopped growing either.

What kind of characters would say have unlimited power, and what is your definition of it?

Originally posted by Juntai
A lot of Prime's power was hyperbole, but the idea that his line merged with the Imps, and later down the road in the 700th Century, Superman came back and made them even more powerful than that by allowing them to access portions of his energy, speaks volumes. The intention was quite clear, and his power certainly hadn't been mentioned as having stopped growing either.

What kind of characters would say have unlimited power, and what is your definition of it?

By merging with the Imps, they got ten new abilities and so on. Nothing special. It was made quite clear his power grew exponentially. That's clear. They never showed his power being unlimited or anything of the sort. A lot of characters can be a lot more powerful potentially, but potential is just speculation in a lot of situations.

Unlimited/Infinite, gets thrown around too much in comics. As far as unlimited power, I wouldn't classify any being as having that type of power, but the truly omnipotent beings. Meaning "The One Above All" and so on.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Superman's power has grown more during the period of time. That of course can be attributed to the fact, that after the crisis, he was a hell of a lot weaker, so of course he grew a lot more powerful. Would you say, at normal levels Thor and Hulk are more powerful, or less powerful, by feats, than they were back then?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
By merging with the Imps, they got ten new abilities and so on. Nothing special. It was made quite clear his power grew exponentially. That's clear. They never showed his power being unlimited or anything of the sort. A lot of characters can be a lot more powerful potentially, but potential is just speculation in a lot of situations.

Unlimited/Infinite, gets thrown around too much in comics. As far as unlimited power, I wouldn't classify any being as having that type of power, but the truly omnipotent beings. Meaning "The One Above All" and so on. Interesting.

I apologize for all the questions, I'm trying to find where you stand on certain things.

Superman's history, and even his future, clearly show his power grows quickly, exponentially, and without any known end. That is the very definition of unlimited, imo.
Even currently, he can go from a sort of average top tier, to way beyond at the drop of a hat, as Phil was showing off earlier.

Originally posted by Juntai
Would you say, at normal levels Thor and Hulk are more powerful, or less powerful, by feats, than they were back then?

Well, from what I've read, they do have a lot of good and amazing feats from the more recent times, but I would say that their most craziest/powerful feats are generally from back in the day. Especially during the Silver Age and so on. They did the craziest shit back in those days.

Originally posted by Juntai
Interesting.

I apologize for all the questions, I'm trying to find where you stand on certain things.

Superman's history, and even his future, clearly show his power grows quickly, exponentially, and without any known end. That is the very definition of unlimited, imo.
Even currently, he can go from a sort of average top tier, to way beyond at the drop of a hat, as Phil was showing off earlier.

It's all good.

It does grow exponentially but that's what happened to a lot of characters as time grew past the crisis. There was practically a no high end feat law as I recall back then. Characters like Superman, Flash and so on sky rocketed in power eventually.

His future? Superman Prime did grow exponentially in power, but he had until the 853rd century to do so. The fact that his power grew, without a defined limit does not indicate unlimited power. Hell, Superman Prime had no showings to even base his level of power from. Bad measuring stick or example in my opinion.

Change his level of power that drastically at the drop of a hat? That's untrue.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, from what I've read, they do have a lot of good and amazing feats from the more recent times, but I would say that their most craziest/powerful feats are generally from back in the day. Especially during the Silver Age and so on. They did the craziest shit back in those days. So you would say that are less powerful, while Superman is more powerful?

Interesting.

I guess that's why people often dig back to the 70s and 80s for feats to attempt match stuff Superman does every handful of issues.

Would you say these ancient showings have a great bearing on current depictions of the characters, or are they to be taken with a grain of salt like pre-Crisis stuff, which is also in continuity these days?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Change his level of power that drastically at the drop of a hat? That's untrue. Sure he does.

There's tons of examples, like the ones Phil showed. Superman going above and beyond the regular class he's put into, he just stops holding back.

Originally posted by Juntai
Orion couldn't beat Darkseid without Darkseid purposely losing to him.
Superman has defeated him on multiple counts.

Superman doesn't beat Orion heads up, because he isn't outright trying to down him, because Orion is a good guy.

You see, in one of those scenarios, Orion and Superman are peers.
In the other, Superman steps it up to take on a superior foe.


Originally posted by Juntai
Another example;

JLA Classified 15.


The entire JLA is decimated, laying unconscious, and Superman alone stands up to fight more.

Alien: Are you read for more? (To Superman )
Supes: Actually, I think I'm ready to stop playing with you.
Alien: Playing? I've beaten you half to death.

Supes: Not even close. I needed to measure your power and get a handle on what's really happening here. And that took time. So I just soaked up your punches while I worked it all out.


Supes: You see I'm not human. My eyes, for instance, work very diferently. There was a flicker on everything. All the surfaces in here, including yours, cycle 512 times a second. The others would never see that. But I do. Just as I can see and hear all the communications traffic moving around. Finding the frequencies took time.

Supes: I am a scientists son of the House of El. And I am a reporter. And while I may not be as quick at pattern recognition as my wife, I'm not completely stupid. Given time, I can find my way into any story. And this is just a story. Make-believe. You pushed your little stunt just a hair too far, and I saw through it.

Supes: You're strong. Your strategy programming is clever and complex. And you have absolutely no concept of the sanctity of organic life. (supes uses heat vision to burn off the aliens right arm)

Supes: All these things make you a powerful, frightening enemy. But I'm Superman. The entire JLA got their asses handed to them, and Superman was just playing..?


These examples can be done almost quite literally all day.

does anyone notice how DC tends to make its characters more powerful without any obvious upgrade (wonder woman for instance).

I don't think it's only Supes. Almost every DC character gets more powerful after the depowerment of the crisis and without conveincing reason

Originally posted by xJLxKing
You are confusing the plot with what a character does in a plot.

Not even close to what I'm doing

BA's magical lightning aside, he's still less versatile than Superman.

And Superman, in a non-PIS, forum like setting, loses to DS anyway.


So...DS wins here, quite easily.