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Just for Beefy and others who have decided to purchase the newest novels. Yeah Spoilers here.





























...

Someone tell me how to do that spoilers html crap.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Someone tell me how to do that spoilers html crap.
I've been wondering how to do that....
...
..
.
for 4 years.

simple.... text



just make sure to bring spoiler closer in the brackets so it is like this

Daala plans on hiring the Mandalorians to keep the jedi at bay

Originally posted by mattatom
I've been wondering how to do that....
...
..
.
for 4 years.

You could've just quoted somebody and see how they did it...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You could've just quoted somebody and see how they did it... Not really since I always Quick Quote and that doesn't show it.

Abyss was very much an excellent book; easily the greatest of the three available novels.

Vestara and the Lost Tribe, specifically Lady Rhea and Master Xal, are given further dimension and exploration. They're treacherous, venal, and very much embody the mentality of the ancient Sith: they pride themselves on being warriors first, masterminds second, though there is a great deal of political maneuvering on their part. Manipulation is practically built in the genetic code of the Sith.

The Jedi manage to outwit Daala when she attempts to humiliate the Jedi at a press gathering; she also places a female judge who is essentially Star Wars' answer to Professor Umbridge from the Harry Potter series -- total b1tch.

There is dissent amongst the Jedi High Council. Kenth is totally giving into Daala's wishes, prompting derision from Kyle Katarn and others, though the Council has agreed that Kenth should be referred to as "Grand Master" in order to set a good example for the rest of the Order. They also briefly toy with the idea of frightening Daala by threatening to disband the Order, allowing the Jedi to become private citizens without regulation (which in turn prompts Daala to try to humiliate them in the aforementioned press conference).

Daala and Jag have a candid moment where Daala admits that she's going after the Jedi and intends to make an example out of them. She cites that she is doing so simply because of the Sith; she believes that Sith are simply Jedi in darker robes and that in order to destroy the Sith, you pretty much have to destroy the Jedi. This is somewhat sympathetic given the obvious imperfections of the Jedi Order and that Caedus and Vader were infamous Jedi before they became infamous Sith. The problem is that Daala herself was a subordinate to a far more evil Sith than either Caedus or Vader, and he wasn't, at any point, a Jedi.

But Daala makes exceptions for Imperials she respected, so...

The Jedi and Han and Leia are pissed about Tahiri's arrest for the murder of Admiral Pellaeon, though it pleases me. Jag wisely points out, however, that Daala is being extremely selective: she allows Cha Niathal to resign in peace despite the fact that she played an equal role in Jacen's coup. I'd say punish them both. Jacen acted illegally during the Battle of Fondor, disregarding both GA and Imperial policy by attacking a surrendering foe -- which may or may not be a warcrime. So any legitimacy he had as Head of State died when he attempted genocide. Thus Tahiri's assassination of Pellaeon, on Jacen's orders, was equally illegal and it pleases me to see her confronted about her heel face turn.

Daala also brings the Mandalorians into play, and let's just say that though the Mando/Boba-wankery is a far cry from Traviss, it still lives on in certain respects.

Luke's journey in the Maw ends in a metaphysical journey to the Lake of Apparitions, which is essentially a lake full of Force ghosts. Luke and Ben are first met by Anakin Solo, who tells Ben to learn from mistakes and examples; we also learn Luke still feels guilty for sending Anakin on the mission that killed him.

The next ghost in line is Mara Jade. She tells Luke that the afterlife is different for each person, and that hers is a place of "reflection for all that she'd done." When asked by Luke if she was suffering, Mara answers that she has done things that -- in the afterlife -- cause her anguish. They briefly discuss whether or not she deserves it, since Palpatine tricked her. Mara responds that she made her peace with Palpatine a long time ago and that she did not serve him all her life, which was "both my blessing and my curse." She points out to Ben that she pursued Jacen as she did when she was Palpatine's servant; as a hunter and killer. And she didn't do so to punish a Sith Lord, but to revenge herself on a man she felt was hurting her son. Mara ends the chat by warning Luke to stop from this journey and not to pursue Abeloth. He, predictably, doesn't listen.

It's also nice because this is the first book that I recall where Mara tells Luke she loves him.

The final ghost is Jacen. Jacen is unrepentent for his actions, though his first words are that he will not ask for Luke's forgiveness. Luke tells him that that's probably wise, since he's not sure he could give it. Ben says some harsh things, telling Jacen that he's glad he's dead. When he attempts to apologize, Jacen tells him not to. That he has every right to feel the way that he does, and that all asks in return is that he simply be honest about it.

There is a meaningful exchange about the Throne of Balance -- "upon which sits the course of the future" -- apparently a metaphor. Luke had a vision prior to meeting Anakin, Mara, and Jacen that Allana would sit on the Throne, surrounded by friends in a time of trust. This may or may not have been the same throne that Jacen envisioned in Invincible that a dark Luke would be sitting on. This becomes a huge part of Luke's discussion with Jacen; Luke believes that whatever Jacen saw on the Throne was his motivation for becoming a Sith Lord. He tells Jacen that he sees Allana on the Throne, which relieves Jacen, who tells Luke that that means all Jacen had done as a Sith Lord was validated. He refuses to tell Luke who he saw on the Throne, however, but tells him "it wasn't you... if that's what you're thinking."

Both Ben and Luke suspect he may be lying. At the very end, though, when Luke figures out what Jacen saw, and Ben asks him, Luke refuses to answer, saying "it doesn't matter -- not to you" and that "you know what's really wonderful about that? It never will."

I think that meant he knows Jacen saw an evil version of Luke

The second to last major point of the book for me was Luke's fight with a 15 Sith striketeam. Due to Luke's metaphysical journey, both he and Ben return to their bodies an incredibly (physically) weakened state, muscles have atrophied, ect. Ironically, however, this seems to be treated as a minor issue with the dialogue and then, with the fight scene, it's never mentioned again. Luke draws heavily on the Force to sustain himself, which (to me) does not earn him sympathy points for his relatively poor performance in the duel. Yoda, Dooku, and Palpatine all had to rely heavily on the Force to compensate for their weakened physical forms and still performed to a far greater extent than Luke can manage here.

The fight is pretty much a tactical engagement with little saberplay. Luke kills most of them with blaster shots, and the Sith suffer a betrayal from Master Xal, who attempted to murder Lady Rhea and Vestara. After launching stun grenades at Ben and Luke and apparently disabling them, Vestara murders Xal for his betrayal. His death throes distract his apprentice, Ahri Raas, who in turn is killed by either Ben or Luke... who aren't really stunned. The fight goes downhill from there with the Sith. Vestara lashes out at Luke and injures him in the face, though it is later revealed that he allowed her to do so in order to put a Dathomiri blood trail on her before he knocks her unconscious.

He attempts to take her prisoner, though she repeatedly tries to kill him and Ben. She eventually escapes when Rhea and two flunkies show up. Luke kills the two flunkies before Rhea pimpsmacks him into a wall with the Force. Vestara and Rhea attack him in coordination, and though he is pretty much able to handle Vestara without issue, she does score a couple of hits on his combat suit (they're basically fighting in an airlock), which causes it to lose pressure. Rhea is a badass and repeatedly injures Luke with her blade and "pummel him from thigh to throat with knee, elbow, and helmet."

Luke is stated to be "in no condition to be merciful" for those fanboys who will predictably excuse this as "lol luke aint tryin 2 hurt no one." When Ben, in Rogue Shadow, attempts to fire on the Sith ship, Rhea makes the mistake of pausing to look toward the light...

and Luke dismembers her.

Originally posted by Gideon
Abyss was very much an excellent book; easily the greatest of the three available novels.

Vestara and the Lost Tribe, specifically Lady Rhea and Master Xal, are given further dimension and exploration. They're treacherous, venal, and very much embody the mentality of the ancient Sith: they pride themselves on being warriors first, masterminds second, though there is a great deal of political maneuvering on their part. Manipulation is practically built in the genetic code of the Sith.

The Jedi manage to outwit Daala when she attempts to humiliate the Jedi at a press gathering; she also places a female judge who is essentially Star Wars' answer to Professor Umbridge from the Harry Potter series -- total b1tch.

There is dissent amongst the Jedi High Council. Kenth is totally giving into Daala's wishes, prompting derision from Kyle Katarn and others, though the Council has agreed that Kenth should be referred to as "Grand Master" in order to set a good example for the rest of the Order. They also briefly toy with the idea of frightening Daala by threatening to disband the Order, allowing the Jedi to become private citizens without regulation (which in turn prompts Daala to try to humiliate them in the aforementioned press conference).

Daala and Jag have a candid moment where Daala admits that she's going after the Jedi and intends to make an example out of them. She cites that she is doing so simply because of the Sith; she believes that Sith are simply Jedi in darker robes and that in order to destroy the Sith, you pretty much have to destroy the Jedi. This is somewhat sympathetic given the obvious imperfections of the Jedi Order and that Caedus and Vader were infamous Jedi before they became infamous Sith. The problem is that Daala herself was a subordinate to a far more evil Sith than either Caedus or Vader, and he wasn't, at any point, a Jedi.

But Daala makes exceptions for Imperials she respected, so...

The Jedi and Han and Leia are pissed about Tahiri's arrest for the murder of Admiral Pellaeon, though it pleases me. Jag wisely points out, however, that Daala is being extremely selective: she allows Cha Niathal to resign in peace despite the fact that she played an equal role in Jacen's coup. I'd say punish them both. Jacen acted illegally during the Battle of Fondor, disregarding both GA and Imperial policy by attacking a surrendering foe -- which may or may not be a warcrime. So any legitimacy he had as Head of State died when he attempted genocide. Thus Tahiri's assassination of Pellaeon, on Jacen's orders, was equally illegal and it pleases me to see her confronted about her heel face turn.

Daala also brings the Mandalorians into play, and let's just say that though the Mando/Boba-wankery is a far cry from Traviss, it still lives on in certain respects.

Luke's journey in the Maw ends in a metaphysical journey to the Lake of Apparitions, which is essentially a lake full of Force ghosts. Luke and Ben are first met by Anakin Solo, who tells Ben to learn from mistakes and examples; we also learn Luke still feels guilty for sending Anakin on the mission that killed him.

The next ghost in line is Mara Jade. She tells Luke that the afterlife is different for each person, and that hers is a place of "reflection for all that she'd done." When asked by Luke if she was suffering, Mara answers that she has done things that -- in the afterlife -- cause her anguish. They briefly discuss whether or not she deserves it, since Palpatine tricked her. Mara responds that she made her peace with Palpatine a long time ago and that she did not serve him all her life, which was "both my blessing and my curse." She points out to Ben that she pursued Jacen as she did when she was Palpatine's servant; as a hunter and killer. And she didn't do so to punish a Sith Lord, but to revenge herself on a man she felt was hurting her son. Mara ends the chat by warning Luke to stop from this journey and not to pursue Abeloth. He, predictably, doesn't listen.

It's also nice because this is the first book that I recall where Mara tells Luke she loves him.

The final ghost is Jacen. Jacen is unrepentent for his actions, though his first words are that he will not ask for Luke's forgiveness. Luke tells him that that's probably wise, since he's not sure he could give it. Ben says some harsh things, telling Jacen that he's glad he's dead. When he attempts to apologize, Jacen tells him not to. That he has every right to feel the way that he does, and that all asks in return is that he simply be honest about it.

There is a meaningful exchange about the Throne of Balance -- "upon which sits the course of the future" -- apparently a metaphor. Luke had a vision prior to meeting Anakin, Mara, and Jacen that Allana would sit on the Throne, surrounded by friends in a time of trust. This may or may not have been the same throne that Jacen envisioned in Invincible that a dark Luke would be sitting on. This becomes a huge part of Luke's discussion with Jacen; Luke believes that whatever Jacen saw on the Throne was his motivation for becoming a Sith Lord. He tells Jacen that he sees Allana on the Throne, which relieves Jacen, who tells Luke that that means all Jacen had done as a Sith Lord was validated. He refuses to tell Luke who he saw on the Throne, however, but tells him "it wasn't you... if that's what you're thinking."

Both Ben and Luke suspect he may be lying. At the very end, though, when Luke figures out what Jacen saw, and Ben asks him, Luke refuses to answer, saying "it doesn't matter -- not to you" and that "you know what's really wonderful about that? It never will."

I think that meant he knows Jacen saw an evil version of Luke

The second to last major point of the book for me was Luke's fight with a 15 Sith striketeam. Due to Luke's metaphysical journey, both he and Ben return to their bodies an incredibly (physically) weakened state, muscles have atrophied, ect. Ironically, however, this seems to be treated as a minor issue with the dialogue and then, with the fight scene, it's never mentioned again. Luke draws heavily on the Force to sustain himself, which (to me) does not earn him sympathy points for his relatively poor performance in the duel. Yoda, Dooku, and Palpatine all had to rely heavily on the Force to compensate for their weakened physical forms and still performed to a far greater extent than Luke can manage here.

The fight is pretty much a tactical engagement with little saberplay. Luke kills most of them with blaster shots, and the Sith suffer a betrayal from Master Xal, who attempted to murder Lady Rhea and Vestara. After launching stun grenades at Ben and Luke and apparently disabling them, Vestara murders Xal for his betrayal. His death throes distract his apprentice, Ahri Raas, who in turn is killed by either Ben or Luke... who aren't really stunned. The fight goes downhill from there with the Sith. Vestara lashes out at Luke and injures him in the face, though it is later revealed that he allowed her to do so in order to put a Dathomiri blood trail on her before he knocks her unconscious.

He attempts to take her prisoner, though she repeatedly tries to kill him and Ben. She eventually escapes when Rhea and two flunkies show up. Luke kills the two flunkies before Rhea pimpsmacks him into a wall with the Force. Vestara and Rhea attack him in coordination, and though he is pretty much able to handle Vestara without issue, she does score a couple of hits on his combat suit (they're basically fighting in an airlock), which causes it to lose pressure. Rhea is a badass and repeatedly injures Luke with her blade and "pummel him from thigh to throat with knee, elbow, and helmet."

Luke is stated to be "in no condition to be merciful" for those fanboys who will predictably excuse this as "lol luke aint tryin 2 hurt no one." When Ben, in Rogue Shadow, attempts to fire on the Sith ship, Rhea makes the mistake of pausing to look toward the light...

and Luke dismembers her.

I haven't read what you wrote gideon but I think you exaggerate a little bit.

1. It is explicitly stated that Luke has been mind walking for more than 3 weeks and he is almost completely drained of energy.
2. He was trying to capture Vestara and therefore, allowed her to hit him so he could release a blood trail.

When you told me what happened I was outraged but the book gives valid excuses for Luke's performance.


Edit: Nevermind, you did mention it. But they DID give Luke's condition more than a "minor" glance.

And last, but certainly not least, we are seemingly introduced to the main villain of the Fate of the Jedi series: a malevolent entity by the name of Abeloth.

To begin, what exactly Abeloth is... no one knows. This is here description, courtesy of Vestara:

"Behind Xal and Ahri stood... something tall and vaguely human with a long cascade of yellow hair that reached nearly to the ground. Her eyes were tiny and deep sunken, like two stars shining out of a pair of black wells, and she had a large, full lipped mouth so broad that it reached from ear to ear . Her stubby arms protruded no more than ten centimeters from her shoulders, but in the place of fingers, her hands had writhing tentacles so long that they hung down past her knees. The body was straight as a tree trunk, and as she started downstream to the place where Vestara and Lady Rhea would be coming ashore, her legs did not seem to swing forward so much as ripple."

She is (among other things) a shapeshifter of sorts; a creature with a penchant for illusions.

"The long aquiline nose, high cheeks, and the well shaped chin, all were the face of Abeloth. Just this morning, that face had seemed the most beautiful face had ever seen... until Lady Rhea declared it was time to return home, and Abeloth had betrayed her true nature."

Though this is the first time we see Abeloth in this book, Vestara's perceptions drive the audience to conclude that she is a master manipulator of a most vicious sort. She has manipulated the Lost Tribe; only Vestara can perceive her true form, and Vestara concludes that the only reason Abeloth hasn't killed her is because she enjoys Vestara struggle to remain sane with this revelation.

Abeloth also seems to be omnipresent or capable of metaphysical projection, because she appears constantly throughout Luke and Ben's journey into the Lake of Apparitions, standing at a distance, all the while dealing directly with the Sith.

When the Lost Tribe first meet Abeloth, they're exploring a cave. Vestara, Rhea, and Ahri discover that Xal has been captured by an unseen force. When they release him, Abeloth (in her beautiful manifestation) appears and subdues them all effortlessly with the Force before releasing them, saying, "My apologies... I wasn't sure you were real."

It's not exactly explained, but Abeloth seems capable of great mind control. The Sith immediately trust her and promise to take her back to their planet. Abeloth, despite appearing to the Sith as a stranded recluse, possesses enough gravitas to manipulate the Sith into capturing the Skywalkers. Abeloth is the one who engineers the concluding duel between Luke and the strike team, appealing to the Sith's vanity, that they would please their Council by bringing them back as prisoners. Vestara is suspicious, but relents.

Abeloth's power and mystery take on a truly epic form when it is revealed that she was the entity present in the Maw during the Yuuzhan Vong War, all those years ago, the presence that terrified Ben as an infant, wanting him to withdraw from the Force. The Sith Ship, when Vestara tries to get him to countermand an order from Abeloth, tells her "you are strong in the Force, child, but strong is nothing compared to almighty."

Somewhere in the book, and I forget where, Abeloth is suggested to be a manifestation of ancient evil and Force power.

Ben concludes that Centerpoint Station was basically a guardian that kept Abeloth imprisoned or in check in the Maw and that, with its destruction, Abeloth is free to exude her influence over Force users. She is responsible for the Jedi psychosis.

Yes, she is extraordinarily badass and easily the greatest part of this book.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Edit: Nevermind, you did mention it. But they DID give Luke's condition more than a "minor" glance.

If Luke can summon the energy from the Force to get in an arm wrestling match with a black hole, if people like Yoda, Sidious, and Dooku can sustain themselves -- their aged, decrepit, frail bodies -- with the Force against opponents far greater than Sith B1tch and Sith Brat respectively, then I expect Luke to do far better than what he did.

You'll notice that fatigue is never mentioned at all to be the source of his distress in combat with Rhea and Vestara.

It, in fact, reminds me of Matthew Stover's take on the duel in Revenge of the Sith: "And now the victorious shadow was now only Palpatine, a very old, very tired man"

Physical weariness is a pain in the ass, but with someone with full access to the Force? Not insurmountable.

So how powerful are Rhea, and Vestara in the general rankings of things? Jedi Master level? Kyp Durron? Kyle Katarn? Ben? And what of the Sith in general?

Originally posted by Gideon
If Luke can summon the energy from the Force to get in an arm wrestling match with a black hole, if people like Yoda, Sidious, and Dooku can sustain themselves -- their aged, decrepit, frail bodies -- with the Force against opponents far greater than Sith B1tch and Sith Brat respectively, then I expect Luke to do far better than what he did.

You'll notice that fatigue is never mentioned at all to be the source of his distress in combat with Rhea and Vestara.

It, in fact, reminds me of Matthew Stover's take on the duel in Revenge of the Sith: "And now the victorious shadow was now only Palpatine, a very old, very tired man"

Physical weariness is a pain in the ass, but with someone with full access to the Force? Not insurmountable.

We don't really know the full effects of mind walking but it was stated that after the fight, Luke was even more exhausted.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So how powerful are Rhea, and Vestara in the general rankings of things? Jedi Master level? Kyp Durron? Kyle Katarn? Ben? And what of the Sith in general?

Vestara seems to be, no more and no less, than a dark side Ben with a vagina. Pretty talented for her age, loads of potential, very cunning. She seems to be Ben's foil, his antagonist.

Rhea is, admittedly, one badass Sith whore. If the Lost Tribe rules by the ancient Sith teaching of might makes right, she's a high ranking Sith and therefore, likely, one of the best. But she's not the best and takes orders from a higher body: the Council. Which is a scary thought, since she can go toe-to-toe with Luke.

Luke himself says that "the Sith woman fought like a shenbit, never letting up, never hesitating, never pausing. It was all Luke could do to stay between her and the wall, and he used the Force to keep her trapped in front of him, using her like a shield to keep the girl from slipping around to attack his flanks."

Originally posted by Nephthys
So how powerful are Rhea, and Vestara in the general rankings of things? Jedi Master level? Kyp Durron? Kyle Katarn? Ben? And what of the Sith in general?

They're nothing special. Gideon and I have this argument where I feel that if it wasn't because of extreme fatigue/PIS/CIS, he would have wasted them all. There's nothing suggesting these sith can compete with the likes of Bane, Caedus, or Palpatine.

But Abeloth.....She may very well be the most powerful force...ANYTHING in the Star Wars mythos..

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
We don't really know the full effects of mind walking but it was stated that after the fight, Luke was even more exhausted.

You're reaching. Rather like the situation with Andeddu, which is essentially that he must have been emotionally, physiologically, psychologically, and mystically weakened because he lost to Wyyrlok. Luke was physically frail, true, but it was also specifically mentioned that he was sustaining himself with the Force and "feeling better by the second."

Was Luke not his best? I'm sure. I'm sure it takes up vital Force energy to sustain one's self with the Force that one could, otherwise, be directing elsewhere. But Dooku did it. And Yoda. And Sidious. They were oftentimes winded and exhausted afterwards, but kicked major ass.

So should Luke.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're reaching. Rather like the situation with Andeddu, which is essentially that he must have been emotionally, physiologically, psychologically, and mystically weakened because he lost to Wyyrlok. Luke was physically frail, true, but it was also specifically mentioned that he was sustaining himself with the Force and "feeling better by the second."

Was Luke not his best? I'm sure. I'm sure it takes up vital Force energy to sustain one's self with the Force that one could, otherwise, be directing elsewhere. But Dooku did it. And Yoda. And Sidious. They were oftentimes winded and exhausted afterwards, but kicked major ass.

So should Luke.

I might be reaching but again, he was mind walking for 3 weeks and I forget whether he had an IV or not. He WAS sustaining himself in the force and that was the only reason he seemed not to collapse.

10 quid says she gets shot in the back by Han.

Originally posted by Nephthys
10 quid says she gets shot in the back by Han.

You never know with these retards.

I think, though, she's got a great potential. A truly horrifying, epic menace. Easily Palpatine-level.

Inshalla

Que?

Did the Codex and Lake of Apparitions enhance Luke's ability to become victorious? Jacen became Chuck Liddell and Brock Lesnar after touching the Codex.

Gideon, you have seceded in convincing me not only to pick up this new series of books, but possibly others as well... how the hell did you do that?

Did you get the feeling that they were rushing things in order for it to fit in with the legacy series?

REXXXX
Gideon, you have seceded in convincing me not only to pick up this new series of books, but possibly others as well... how the hell did you do that?

Thank you.

Here's a spoiler especially for you, REXXY!

Because I'm that damn sexy.





Eh?

I admit gideon, you made it sound much worse for luke yesterday.

I hope to get the book later tonight, but given the circumstances of the fight? (two whole paragrapsh before your description of the fight) plus, its 2 on 1, instead of 1 on 1 like you made it sound yesterday) I am not so unhappy over it. Sounds like they purposely stacked the odds against luke before starting.

I got Abyss today, on chapter 4 or 5 and its a really goos book. Does kind of overdo the whole jedi psychosis thing though, going as far as to have Jags limo crushed, and a spy in the Temple, and Jaina learning about Mandalorians and Dalaa, read the book for it. Dont know how to do the spoiler thing, so I wont say.

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh?

So you didn't feel like they were trying to rush things so it fits with the legacy comics timeline, i heard complaints about that before. (for the series overall)

I'm curious if Jacen/Caedus still feels that his actions were just, does that mean he is "damned" in the netherworld of the force. Or is his ghost sort of "in the middle" in terms of "alignment" but is still under the Caedus persona. (hope i explained that right)

On a side note it is nice that the major villain is not a sith for once. I wouldn't be surprised if Luke has to sacrifice himself (or dies in battle with) to kill this thing. Based on the little we know of it, I think he may easily rival DE Sidious in power, or maybe even be stronger though so far I don't think it can be defeated by conventional means. I'm sure we will hear thoughts from it on Palpatine and now it makes sense that they was never (to my knowledge) an inquisitor or Vader at the maw for an extended period time.

The fact that Legacy takes place starting in 127 ABY is plain incompetence on the part of the writers. It means that it either the FOTJ authors have to speed up ALL of the Skywalker/Solo deaths, or that Legacy is N-Canon. Both ideas are stupid.

This Abeloth character finally gives what I think is a legitimate reason for Luke ultimately dying. A Godlike presence Luke has to sacrifice himself to defeat.

Yeah, but I wouldhate that. Sacrificing yourself to save the galaxy, ooh, real original. Make him die of something else, like a rabid doughnut attack. Now THAT is original.

Okay then.

A god-like entity is a new thing for Star Wars, really.

/sighs/

star wars jumped the shark a long time ago... but this is beyond ridiculous.

I got to disagree with Rex and Ms. Marvel, I think (based upon what we know and the possible speculations) that this Abeloth is a breath of fresh air in the eu.(imo) Unless you would rather see another alien invasion, galactic civil war,mandalorian uprising or another sith conflict (as the main villian which they dont appear to be)

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that Legacy takes place starting in 127 ABY is plain incompetence on the part of the writers. It means that it either the FOTJ authors have to speed up ALL of the Skywalker/Solo deaths, or that Legacy is N-Canon. Both ideas are stupid.

This Abeloth character finally gives what I think is a legitimate reason for Luke ultimately dying. A Godlike presence Luke has to sacrifice himself to defeat. What is that godlike presence?

Are we looking at something possibly more powerful than luke and sidious?

i'm pretty excited actually. 12 chapters in, this is one of the best sw's books i've read in a long time.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that Legacy takes place starting in 127 ABY is plain incompetence on the part of the writers. It means that it either the FOTJ authors have to speed up ALL of the Skywalker/Solo deaths, or that Legacy is N-Canon. Both ideas are stupid.


Like how they had to make Revenge Of The Sith connected to A New Hope and rushed Anakin's conversion to the Dark Side. Kill of all the Jedi we don't hear about in the OT and establish the Empire under stupid circumstances.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
What is that godlike presence?

Are we looking at something possibly more powerful than luke and sidious?

Something that is possibly VASTLY more powerful than either of them. This being has the ability to be in more than 1 place at 1 time. She manipulates 15 sith while at the same time creating force psychosis for the various Jedi on Coruscant. IF she is a Celestial, it would explain how powerful those beings were millions of years ago. Either way it appears that her powers are limitless.

And I agree with EH. Aside from the retarded PIS/CIS in Luke's fights and the Lost Tribe of the Sith being used as cheap and pathetic filler, the storyline with the mind walkers and Abeloth is among the most interested i've ever encountered in regards to Star Wars.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Like how they had to make Revenge Of The Sith connected to A New Hope and rushed Anakin's conversion to the Dark Side. Kill of all the Jedi we don't hear about in the OT and establish the Empire under stupid circumstances.

People always talk about acting and "not enough action" etc etc as the major weaknesses of the prequel films. But this was it's weakest point.

The senates easy acceptance of the Empire was as far fetched as anything we've seen in SW. 100's of 1000's of personalities representing millions of cultures and interest groups and they all agree to an Empire on the word of one man?

Even if the Jedi attacked Palpatine, how does that support the dissolving of the Republic.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that Legacy takes place starting in 127 ABY is plain incompetence on the part of the writers. It means that it either the FOTJ authors have to speed up ALL of the Skywalker/Solo deaths, or that Legacy is N-Canon. Both ideas are stupid.


We agree for once. It needed a century more at least.

oh good grief gideon. It was freaking 4 on 1. he speed rushed two of them (e.g. sidious, rots) took one personal injury from a weapon he had never seen used that way before, before realizing his mistake and slicing it in half.

Your "pummel from thight to throat with knee elbow and helmet" is kinda pointless, cause the next sentence says: "through their vac suit armor, neither of them was taking much damage."

(In other words Luke had no reason to protect from hand-to-hand attacks when he was wearing armor.)


I mean, granted, he didn't pick them both up and crack their heads together with the force, but you made it sound like he was actually struggling, which was a bit of a huge overstatement.

truth of the matter is, ben and luke took out team of fifteen sith pretty much without breaking a sweat. its fiction, so intepret it however you want i suppose, but i picked up the book dreading the demise of skywalker as we know him, and ended with a smug sense of satisfaction at how easily they killed FIFTEEN sith.

its all good though, did you read the piece from backlash? I'm really looking forward to seeing what luke does to that rancor!

Truejedi
oh good grief gideon.

Chances are that you're not going to like how this discussion goes, TJ.



No.

You know what was "freaking 4 on 1"? Palpatine vs. the Jedi in Revenge of the Sith. The four Sith agents towards the end had no idea Luke would be on the other end of the exit panel: "The exit panel opened. Luke found himself standing faceplate-to-faceplate with four surprised enemies."



Don't compare this situation with Sidious's predicament. Sidious fought four highly trained Jedi Masters in single combat when both parties were fully aware of the other's presence and the Jedi had the advantage of being in combat stance with weapons drawn and ignited. These Sith? Taken totally off guard.

Faulty analogy and I would highly advise you to not go down that road again.



If that were the case, he wouldn't have bothered retaliating or blocking. Oh, wait. He does both.



...



He's hurled into the lift wall by Rhea, takes two blows to the chest from the parang from Vestara, another from Rhea, received pummelling from Rhea, muses that Rhea "fought like a shenbit, never letting up, never hesitating, never pausing" and that "it was all could do to stay between Rhea and the wall, using her as a shield" to keep Vestara at bay, and that " was in no condition to be merciful."

He overpowered her only because she happened to glance at the departing Jade Shadow.

He struggled. Period. The end. Deal with it and move on.



Truth to the matter is, Ben and Luke took out a team of fifteen Sith through manipulation of the environment and deception, not lightsaber prowess. Luke killed three off the bat with blaster shots, Vestara murdered Xal, Ben or Luke pretended to be stunned and one of them butchered Ahri while his back was turned, Luke knocks Vestara unconscious, Luke hits one with a blaster shot as he's escaping the membrane, and kills the other four by hitting the membrane with blaster shots, and finally kills one of the last male Sith with a blaster. How many did he butcher with his saber?

Two.

How many did he duel? Two.

And one of them only died when she literally looked in another direction.

Sorry, TJ. Luke struggled. He performed extremely poorly in the straight up combat scenario. Did he fight intelligently? Sure. But that's pretty much all you can say.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Something that is possibly VASTLY more powerful than either of them. This being has the ability to be in more than 1 place at 1 time. She manipulates 15 sith while at the same time creating force psychosis for the various Jedi on Coruscant. IF she is a Celestial, it would explain how powerful those beings were millions of years ago. Either way it appears that her powers are limitless.

And I agree with EH. Aside from the retarded PIS/CIS in Luke's fights and the Lost Tribe of the Sith being used as cheap and pathetic filler, the storyline with the mind walkers and Abeloth is among the most interested i've ever encountered in regards to Star Wars. A god like entity is interesting in the SWU but if the authors are going the way that marvel comic artists going its going be incredibly far fetched(like you know godlike omnipoent undefeateble entities like the phoenix force in marvel being able to defeat anything and be virtually unstoppable).

But i was hoping the entity would be referred to an IT rather than a he or she as it gives an even more sinister and scary feeling.

Originally posted by Gideon

Sorry, TJ. Luke struggled. He performed extremely poorly in the straight up combat scenario. Did he fight intelligently? Sure. But that's pretty much all you can say. And just why did he perform poorly against these people?

Are these new authors trying to weaken past characters and create their own superbeings that surpass both luke and sidious?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I got to disagree with Rex and Ms. Marvel, I think (based upon what we know and the possible speculations) that this Abeloth is a breath of fresh air in the eu.(imo) Unless you would rather see another alien invasion, galactic civil war,mandalorian uprising or another sith conflict (as the main villian which they dont appear to be)

id rather see a regular human whose dangerous without a whole bunch of supernatural abilities as a villain. imo gods are boring.

people like greivous thrawn palleon and mara always interested me because of the fact that they werent all powerful. bleh. the entire concept of a "god" goes against star wars anyway imo.

@Gideon
I don't agree with your assessment of luke in the last fight and to be honest I before i opened this thread i knew i wouldn't agree with your interpretation of luke. But that's alright we all view things differently. So here is my 2 cents as to why luke wasn't uber.

you said yoda dooku and palpatine used the force to enhance their bodies to fight and that with luke doing it he should have beaten these sith easy well easier than he did. Seriously Luke was out of his body for more than a week if anything given how the author wrote how much time had passed it had been about 2 weeks. but 1 week for sure,
BUT here is the thing you are overlooking ben said flat out while they were beyond the shadows on the lake that they need to go back because Luke's body was almost dead as in by the time luke got back to his body he hadn't eatin a while and wasn't very hydrated not to mention he was technically on his death bed due to dehydration and lack of food.

so i'd say that even with luke using the force to get "stronger by the second" and doing as good as he did in that fight is perfectly spot on. I don't think luke was as bad as you make him out to be in this fight.

and then the only thing i noticed that troy messed up on was he said luke was in a trash compactor of a star destroyer when I'm pretty sure he meant the death star.

my favorite part of the book was Bazel or whatever his name is bashing that mandalorian against the wall repeatedly killing.

I hate how mandalorians keep finding their way into these books.

the lake was pretty cool, after anakin solo appeared I was hoping for some yoda, obi, anakin skywalker, or palpatine to appear and speak with the them.

and my last thought on this book is Abelothe. She is wickedly crazy I like how they tied her into the story going as far back as the NJO series with ben, all the jedi goin crazy finally makes sense, I like how Troy wrote her character, and I hope we get to know how she become so powerful. Honestly I'm hoping Gideons theory#1 is correct.

Originally posted by Gideon
Chances are that you're not going to like how this discussion goes, TJ.


The point is to make it a discussion though. not an argument. There are no absolutes in fiction Gideon. I've never minded discussing something.




Yes, the Jedi were obviously more prepared for sidious. I'll give you that. it was MORE impressive than this. But Luke could feel the four sith through the door. he knew they were there. Why didn't they know he was there? Because he cloaked himself. In other words, he used the force to gain an advantage in what would have been otherwise a much more fair 4 on 1. those 2 deaths in the beginning are testament to skywalker's superior ability with the force, and cannot be completely discredited as happenstance. Then Luke shot 3 blaster shots and THEN killed one with a lightsaber before either could react. That is the speed rush part. Not as impressive as sidious, but the same concept. The first one i can see going down, but why hadn't the other moved, unless it was because Luke was moving too fast for him to react?




just referred to that, not as impressive as sidious, but the same concept, and the only reason they weren't ready is because luke was shielding himself in the force. He gave himself that advantage. it wasn't luck.



he blocks her lightsaber. "Luke dropped his blaster pistol to wield his lightsaber with both hands, blocking left, and parrying right."

His counter strike was at her knees and throat respectively. Knees to knock someone off balance, and throat for... whatever reason.

Besides the sentece about neither taking damage comes AFTER the part about where he defends himself.





granted, but you point out later in this paragraph that he is fighting to keep his back to that wall anyway, so advantage... who?



Gideon, he took one attack that wounded him. "But the slash that actually wounded Luke, that cut through his suit ..." That paragraph. The only attack that actually hurt him in the entire fight. You act like getting his suit cut up is the end of the world.


addressed



First, if Rhea fought like a shenbit (and does anyone actually know what that is?) Isn't that a testament to her skill, and not a knock on luke?

second, that sentence actually goes more like this:

"It was all Luke cuold do to stay between her and the wall,, and he used the Force to keep her trapped in front of him, using her like a shield to keep the girl from slipping around to attack his flanks. "


I don't know how you interpreted that, but i was quite impressed with Both luke's tactics, AND ability to forcibly keep Lady Rhea exactly where he wanted her. He was in command of this fight.




That whole sentence is true except the word only and the word only in that sentence is speculation.



I respect your opinion and interpretation of that, but to the extent of undoing Luke as a combatant, my interpretation of the same source material is that he didn't struggle perhaps as much as you would have liked for him to have.




I was still impressed. Especially the ease with which they seemed to do it.



As i said, that doesn't make the skywalker's victory less impressive. 15 to 2 man! 14 if you want to take Xal out of it, but Xal still attacked the Jedi, so i think you have to include him.




granted



here, the word only does work as fact.



i guess that depends on what you are expecting out of him i guess. I mean, if you want him to dominate to the extent that he comes through each and every fight unscathed and unhurt, then i guess he did struggle.

I don't really expect that. I thought he did just fine in all honesty.
Anyway, it was a far cry from what i was expecting after reading your initial post yesterday.

One other thought: So where does this leave Rhea on our combat scale? If we want to consider her fight with luke as the one indicating factor, she shoots right up there, doesn't she? Also, considering she is now dead, we are unlikely ever to get anymore feats of hers to contradict this.


oh, and completely unrelated thoughts on the book, which i loved.

The Abeloth this is amazing, best star wars villian in awhile. Notice that it was the reason for the clone wars in the first place? (Jedi suposed to return some prisoners or what-not, never did?) You talk about a plot-twist. (and that makes it even more likely to be tied to Sidious, imho.)

Han Solo is bad a. The part where he is escaping with Allana was so classic. Loved it.

I'm glad Tahiri was arrested. Following orders hardly counts when everyone knows your boss is a sith.

Jag is hardly acting like a leader. He is reminding me of Anakin from AOTC, and i want him to stop it, and go get control of the Empire.


Oh, and it was actually really sad what happened to the Tremains.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
id rather see a regular human whose dangerous without a whole bunch of supernatural abilities as a villain. imo gods are boring.

people like greivous thrawn palleon and mara always interested me because of the fact that they werent all powerful. bleh. the entire concept of a "god" goes against star wars anyway imo. Well a "god" in star wars would be more interesting if it was an "IT" and not a "she".

But i presume you think a concept of a god is boring in star wars due to the overpowered "gods" in marvel(TOAA, phoenix, LT etc etc)

Gideon. Luke was extremely weak and sustaining himself with the force was all he could do from falling over.

Furthermore, he was losing oxygen in the vac suit when it was cut. There are enough circumstances not to claim Luke sucks.

@Wolverine

I would compare Abeloth to the Fallen, if Gideon's theory holds water and I think it does. She was cast out by the Celestials and imprisoned.

Fallen? You mean the fallen in transformers 2?

Well interestingly enough, this time the possible main villain is a cosmic entity rather than the repetitive sith/mandalorian/alien invasion story arc.

I am convinced to buy the FOTJ books(abyss at least) seeing that i had absolutely no interest in LOTF.

BTW what do you think this entity is capable of doing? And how do you think it will be stopped?

And is this being really a celestial or is that just a theory? I have a feeling this being would probably be more presence than flesh just like how galactus was portrayed in the last FF movie.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Well a "god" in star wars would be more interesting if it was an "IT" and not a "she".

But i presume you think a concept of a god is boring in star wars due to the overpowered "gods" in marvel(TOAA, phoenix, LT etc etc)

i just feel that starwars is a sci-fi realm where omni-beings shouldnt really exist. in the movies the force is there but it almost always takes a back seat to more grounded technological aspects. the supernatural aspect has always been subtle. so... yeah bringing along some all-powerful transient god just wrecks the atmosphere. i mean its all imo but the reason why i got into star wars in the first place is because i like the large scale battles and galaxy wide skirmishes and all the shnazzy mega-technological machinations.

if i had to create a new villain id want it to be someone whose powerful because of their mind. not necessarily a tactician like thrawn but a genius inventor or something... maybe create a badass suit that gives him a 1 up on everyone else. thats a little campy though sounds like a comic book.

Good Lord. I will address all of this when I get back.

And all of you, in the meantime, may want to go back and read that fight again.

Again, in part I agree with Gideon. Luke didn't perform as well as he should have. He should have wiped the floor with these so called sith without trouble. However, he mind walked for 3 weeks and was described as ridiculously weak, with support from the force being the only thing keeping him on his feet. Then his vac suit was torn and he was losing oxygen as he was fighting.

Darth Sexy
Again, in part I agree with Gideon. Luke didn't perform as well as he should have. He should have wiped the floor with these so called sith without trouble.

+1.

He fought intelligently, which is a plus, but he did not (as truejedi would like to think) walk in and beat the hell out of fifteen Sith for lulz.



He used the Force to enliven atrophied muscles and awaken dead synapses. He also told Ben he was feeling better by the second. Lastly, not once is his physical condition mentioned by either Luke or the narrator as the cause for his poor performance against Lady Rhea and Vestara.



His vac suit was torn because... he wasn't doing that well against Rhea.

Originally posted by Gideon
+1.

He fought intelligently, which is a plus, but he did not (as truejedi would like to think) walk in and beat the hell out of fifteen Sith for lulz.



He used the Force to enliven atrophied muscles and awaken dead synapses. He also told Ben he was feeling better by the second. Lastly, not once is his physical condition mentioned by either Luke or the narrator as the cause for his poor performance against Lady Rhea and Vestara.



His vac suit was torn because... he wasn't doing that well against Rhea.

I'll have to reread the whole fight scene because as I recall, his weakness was constantly mentioned through the fight scenes.

not to mention he was almost dead before him and ben went back to their bodies...........

I agree totally with Gideon. He was on the defensivive, but offensively fighting too. That is a basic military tactic, but back to the point. Ben and Luke took negated their ability as a strike team because they diminished their numbers quickly. If Xal was killed, then Luke & Ben probably would have been overrun. Vestara was no match for Luke alone - Lady Rhea was the real power house. It's gonna be awhile IMO before SW kills Luke. The other characters maybe, but not Luke.

I do think Luke will die in this series actually I hope he does.

and i'm beginning to think gideons theory#2 is totally accurate because that would make everything that happened on kessel in outcast make sense. Although i'm still pulling for palpatine......

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
not to mention he was almost dead before him and ben went back to their bodies...........

Really?

Palpatine was even closer to death than Luke in Empire's End and yet he managed to instakill one Jedi, mortally wound another, and disable Leia before getting shot in the back by Han. And each of these with a single Force attack.

Your contention from day one is that Luke is not only a better combatant, but is more powerful, than Palpatine. The very best, the greatest, et cetera. Luke's victory came through manipulation of the environment, deception, and pure luck.

Smart fighting? Sure. But "lawl uber l33t combat skillzz"?

Hardly.

Luke is the finest lightsaber artist of the modern era. However, it seemed to me that the strike team was using an Ancient Form. Not only was Luke tired, but maybe the books omited that he was unfamilar with Sith forms .

However, the Sith weren't expecting someone of Luke's power. They completely underestimated him. If they do manage to kill him, how will they fare against say Kyp?

Realistically, if Sith B1tch and Sith Brat can tangle with Skywalker and do a reasonable job, then should they feel inclined to unleash their full strength against the Jedi, it could probably go either way.

Which is truly disheartening.

I don't know why it's a big deal for some that Luke should be untouchable. The way I see it, Luke is quite fallible. The way the Jedi have handled things since the formation of the New Republic is proof of this.

If beings like Yoda who had 900 years of familiarity with all aspects of the light side of the force can be fallible, why not Luke?

Allankles
I don't know why it's a big deal for some that Luke should be untouchable. The way I see it, Luke is quite fallible. The way the Jedi have handled things since the formation of the New Republic is proof of this.

If beings like Yoda who had 900 years of familiarity with all aspects of the light side of the force can be fallible, why not Luke?

I'm delighted that you mention this, because I very nearly forgot. Let's discuss Luke Skywalker and his fallibility.

The movies have made it abundantly clear that the Force was extremely powerful within Luke; it's vague as to whether or not his connection to it was as potent as his father's, but the fact remains that he when he reached his full potential, he would be, at the very least, more powerful than the Emperor. If any of you have bothered to read the pain-in-the-ass essay I wrote on Palpatine, you'd understand that to be more powerful than the Emperor is something that is truly remarkable. Prodigious. In fact, there really are very few words for it.

As of Outcast, Luke is roughly sixty years old. That would make him a little younger than Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith. Now, I realize that due to the various purges and Palpatine's pettiness towards other Force users that Luke has relatively very little to work with in the way of Force knowledge; he's had to go seek what little he does know out, since Palpatine consumed and destroyed most of the repositories of Jedi knowledge. So while we can conclude that Skywalker's mastery of the Force isn't as deep as say, Yoda's, it is pretty wide given conditions.

So I can accept the fact that his mastery of the Force is not as refined as the Emperor's or Yoda's simply because of his circumstances in lieu of awesome Force-related information.

The problem is combat. As a practical matter, Luke Skywalker has been in more fights to the death than pretty much anyone we've seen in the mythos bar Vader. His refinement and skill with the lightsaber and practical Force applications relative to combat should be peerless. And when I say peerless, I mean it. At this point, there should be no one who could stand up to Luke Skywalker in a straight up engagement and last longer than he feels is necessary.

No one.

Now, does that mean he's infallible, or that he should be? Hardly. We're not even suggesting that he be infallible in combat; just better than everyone else. The fact of the matter is that Skywalker is a man shackled by morality and naivete. That is why, for the most part, Lumiya's performance against him in Legacy of the Force is acceptable. She manipulated the environment, fought by proxy, distracted and deceived. Skywalker had to spend precious Force energy trying to save lives because she preferred not to fight him directly.

So had the Sith in this scenario been the ones to use the environment, to attack by proxy, deception, and misdirection, it would have been understandable. Because that is how a successful Sith fights. He or she "cheats." Furthermore, if we extend the scenario beyond combat and more or less a campaign, there are plenty of scenarios for a lesser opponent to overcome a superior one.

Take Palpatine versus Windu as an example. He lost the fight but won the war; Windu outmatched him in lightsaber combat, but the outcome was Windu's death because Palpatine manipulated Anakin. Luke isn't stupid, but he's far from genius-level. It's more believable that he's outwitted on a regular basis than outfought.

Plenty of options that LFL is apparently too retarded to take. Luke is (and should be) far from infallible. But when it comes to a straight up duel? No one, at this point, should come close.

In his timeframe, anyway.

Originally posted by Gideon
Really?

Palpatine was even closer to death than Luke in Empire's End and yet he managed to instakill one Jedi, mortally wound another, and disable Leia before getting shot in the back by Han. And each of these with a single Force attack.

Your contention from day one is that Luke is not only a better combatant, but is more powerful, than Palpatine. The very best, the greatest, et cetera. Luke's victory came through manipulation of the environment, deception, and pure luck.

Smart fighting? Sure. But "lawl uber l33t combat skillzz"?

Hardly.

prove that palatine was even closer to death than luke was.
in abyss he had gone 1-3weeks ish give or take a week outside of his body of that time his muscles were atrophying he wasn'y staying hydrated or getting food since the mindwalkers were tryin to make sure of that.

my biggest point is ben stating how they need to hurry up and get back because luke is almost dead, more than likely from starvation and dehydration. Luke is 62 in this book. take a 62 year old body deprive it from nutrition, hydration, and throw in how weak his muscles would be from not moving for 1-3 weeks and place him directly into a fight with 15 sith and i'd say he performed just how he should.

I think he should be struggling in a fight where half way through he decides to try and capture a sith assailant. And luke is fallible which he should be.

IMO, which i believe is backed up by the book as well, Luke performed just as he should. near death but he stills manages just fine.

from your posts you said that yoda dooku and palpatine have all used the force to boost their old bodies BUT not one of them has done that after 3 weeks of starvation, dehydration, and muscle atrophy.

also I can't remember anywhere in the fight that Luke was even close to mortal danger in this fight.

and i do agree with your last poat luke should be peerless BUT that's up to the authors NOT the character.

Originally posted by Gideon
Really?

Palpatine was even closer to death than Luke in Empire's End and yet he managed to instakill one Jedi, mortally wound another, and disable Leia before getting shot in the back by Han. And each of these with a single Force attack.

Your contention from day one is that Luke is not only a better combatant, but is more powerful, than Palpatine. The very best, the greatest, et cetera. Luke's victory came through manipulation of the environment, deception, and pure luck.

Smart fighting? Sure. But "lawl uber l33t combat skillzz"?

Hardly.

As a sith, Palpatine used an offensive maneuver. Are you suggesting Luke should have done the same thing as a Jedi with his morals?

xxxpoppunker182
prove that palatine was even closer to death than luke was.

Easily.

Empire's End shows Palpatine's personal physician and dark side adepts telling him, point blank, that he brings himself closer to death with each further usage of the Force and when he gives himself to strong emotion. That's why the adepts attempt to disable the Jedi when they intercept Palpatine making his bid to abduct Anakin.

That's a far greater level of physical weakness than Luke, who was able to use the Force to compensate for his weakened body.

Now stop making excuses.







Luke has an attunement to the Force that is without peer, with the exception of Anakin Skywalker. Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to strengthen his frail body to the point of taking on a man with unlimited Force reserves and the great Obi-Wan Kenobi on a whim; Jedi Master I-Get-Winded-Reaching-For-My-Cane Yoda is able to use the Force to strengthen his body to keep up with the aforementioned Count Dooku at a time when Dooku's prodigious powers were being enhanced to an even greater level by the dark side properties of the planet Vjun; Darth Sidious, whose body was failing him as a result of the dark side energies within him, was able to use the Force to strengthen his body to compete with the aforementioned Yoda, blitz four "celebrated swordsmen" when they were prepared, and instakill two Jedi capable of outdueling his dark side adepts at such a time when he was literally on the brink of death.

...And you're telling me that Luke, whom you consider to be more powerful than all the above by a considerable degree, can't do the same against no-name Sith?

Either he's not as powerful as you make him out to be or... well, that seems like the only valid option.



Please. He wasn't dueling Vestara; she stumbled into him, he allowed her to cut him, and he punched her out. That was when he wanted to take Vestara prisoner. Lady Rhea was the one who gave him hell, and he "was in no condition to be merciful."

Try again.



Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious all did better.



You're right. One of them did it as an octogenarian aristo who, prior to that, was on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing vision (among other things). This, again, versus two powerful Jedi -- one of whom was the beneficiary of unlimited Force reserves. The other did it as a diminutive Jedi of nine centuries whose primary mode of transportation was a hover chair, to demonstrate his lack of natural mobility and stamina. And the last did it despite the fact that he was in a natural state of near death due to the nature of the dark side within him.



Great. Now tell me where Rhea was, since Luke clearly owned her.



Obviously. But this isn't the first time Luke has performed subpar. The truth is that he's not nearly as good as you say he is.

see, i have no problem with luke being fallible. I guess i was expecting a fight where luke ONLY WAS ABLE TO WIN because of circumstances beyond his control, but after reading it, it was still obvious that he won this fight because of his own abilities. his life wasn't truly threatened throughout either. basically i don't see what the big deal is. luke won, and it wasn't really that close, plus we can't really judge how powerful rhea and vestera are yet anyway, so what's the big deal really?

Gideon, if i do say, i think you actually have a higher opinion of luke than i do, if you expect him to be infallible.

I was having a discussion with Gideon about this, and I truly feel that Luke did the galaxy a great disservice by killing Palpatine. With the Empire in tact and at full strength, none of the crap we saw post ROTJ would have happened because Palpatine WOULDN'T have allowed it. So once again, you defeat a necessary evil to fight greater evils in the next 40 years. Nice going Luke.

Originally posted by Gideon
Easily.

Empire's End shows Palpatine's personal physician and dark side adepts telling him, point blank, that he brings himself closer to death with each further usage of the Force and when he gives himself to strong emotion. That's why the adepts attempt to disable the Jedi when they intercept Palpatine making his bid to abduct Anakin.

That's a far greater level of physical weakness than Luke, who was able to use the Force to compensate for his weakened body.

Now stop making excuses.







Luke has an attunement to the Force that is without peer, with the exception of Anakin Skywalker. Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to strengthen his frail body to the point of taking on a man with unlimited Force reserves and the great Obi-Wan Kenobi on a whim; Jedi Master I-Get-Winded-Reaching-For-My-Cane Yoda is able to use the Force to strengthen his body to keep up with the aforementioned Count Dooku at a time when Dooku's prodigious powers were being enhanced to an even greater level by the dark side properties of the planet Vjun; Darth Sidious, whose body was failing him as a result of the dark side energies within him, was able to use the Force to strengthen his body to compete with the aforementioned Yoda, blitz four "celebrated swordsmen" when they were prepared, and instakill two Jedi capable of outdueling his dark side adepts at such a time when he was literally on the brink of death.

...And you're telling me that Luke, whom you consider to be more powerful than all the above by a considerable degree, can't do the same against no-name Sith?

Either he's not as powerful as you make him out to be or... well, that seems like the only valid option.



Please. He wasn't dueling Vestara; she stumbled into him, he allowed her to cut him, and he punched her out. That was when he wanted to take Vestara prisoner. Lady Rhea was the one who gave him hell, and he "was in no condition to be merciful."

Try again.



Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious all did better.



You're right. One of them did it as an octogenarian aristo who, prior to that, was on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing vision (among other things). This, again, versus two powerful Jedi -- one of whom was the beneficiary of unlimited Force reserves. The other did it as a diminutive Jedi of nine centuries whose primary mode of transportation was a hover chair, to demonstrate his lack of natural mobility and stamina. And the last did it despite the fact that he was in a natural state of near death due to the nature of the dark side within him.



Great. Now tell me where Rhea was, since Luke clearly owned her.



Obviously. But this isn't the first time Luke has performed subpar. The truth is that he's not nearly as good as you say he is.

Once again Gideon, you may be misinterpreting the effects of Mind Walking as it is a relatively unknown technique. We're not aware of how it really affects the force user, we just know that Luke was completely drained.

Originally posted by truejedi
see, i have no problem with luke being fallible. I guess i was expecting a fight where luke ONLY WAS ABLE TO WIN because of circumstances beyond his control, but after reading it, it was still obvious that he won this fight because of his own abilities. his life wasn't truly threatened throughout either. basically i don't see what the big deal is. luke won, and it wasn't really that close, plus we can't really judge how powerful rhea and vestera are yet anyway, so what's the big deal really?

Gideon, if i do say, i think you actually have a higher opinion of luke than i do, if you expect him to be infallible.

I agree with Gideon. He should be peerless in lightsaber combat. At the same time, he should be even more infallible when it comes to the force, seeing as his connection to the force is unparalleled. If he was able to manipulate black holes, there's no reason he can't own a pair of no name sith.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I agree with Gideon. He should be peerless in lightsaber combat. At the same time, he should be even more infallible when it comes to the force, seeing as his connection to the force is unparalleled. If he was able to manipulate black holes, there's no reason he can't own a pair of no name sith.

so are you saying PIS, or inconsistent writing? I generally like to see a character as they are portrayed, not as they should(in my mind) be.

Darth Sexy
As a sith, Palpatine used an offensive maneuver. Are you suggesting Luke should have done the same thing as a Jedi with his morals?

You're using dodging/reaching tactics that would make Janus blush, DS. But I'll play, just this final time:

"Had Xal shown his apprentice the courtesy of dying in silence, Vestara might have been able to save her friend Ahri. But the Master bellowed his surprise and anguish like the coward he was. And that drew Ahri's attention away from the unconscious Skywalker he was preparing to restrain.

In the next second a lightsaber sizzled to life, and Ahri came apart along the length of the spine." (pg. 302)

Skywalker (or Ben) butchered a distracted opponent after playing dead. No duel.

- He shoots several Sith and blows up a membrane that sends them hurtling to brutal deaths. No duel.

- He uses the Force to break a Sith's arm in an exit hatch. No duel.

- He puts blaster shots into one Sith male and skewers the other one when they were surprised. No duel.

"But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicious combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful." He proceeds to dismember a distracted Rhea. (pg. 311)

All that Jedi nobility flies out the window when Luke's life is on the line. He fights as brutal as he needs to.



I'm arguing the effects that the narration specifically noted. Rather like Andeddu's supposed weakness, unless you have something that is specifically noted within the confines of the novel, you've got nothing.

To TJ, Poppunker, and DS... one final time...

Stop reaching.

Originally posted by truejedi
so are you saying PIS, or inconsistent writing? I generally like to see a character as they are portrayed, not as they should(in my mind) be.

CIS/PIS yes, I think that's what I would attribute this to.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're using dodging/reaching tactics that would make Janus blush, DS. But I'll play, just this final time:

"Had Xal shown his apprentice the courtesy of dying in silence, Vestara might have been able to save her friend Ahri. But the Master bellowed his surprise and anguish like the coward he was. And that drew Ahri's attention away from the unconscious Skywalker he was preparing to restrain.

In the next second a lightsaber sizzled to life, and Ahri came apart along the length of the spine." (pg. 302)

Skywalker (or Ben) butchered a distracted opponent after playing dead. No duel.

- He shoots several Sith and blows up a membrane that sends them hurtling to brutal deaths. No duel.

- He uses the Force to break a Sith's arm in an exit hatch. No duel.

- He puts blaster shots into one Sith male and skewers the other one when they were surprised. No duel.

"But even that tiny slip was too much in such a vicious combat, and Luke was in no condition to be merciful." He proceeds to dismember a distracted Rhea. (pg. 311)

All that Jedi nobility flies out the window when Luke's life is on the line. He fights as brutal as he needs to.



I'm arguing the effects that the narration specifically noted. Rather like Andeddu's supposed weakness, unless you have something that is specifically noted within the confines of the novel, you've got nothing.

To TJ, Poppunker, and DS... one final time...

Stop reaching.

I still think you are expecting more of Luke than i did. Especially since we don't know the relative power level or Rhea or Vestera (or any of them for that matter)

truejedi
I generally like to see a character as they are portrayed, not as they should(in my mind) be.



I hate to break it to you, but all evidence here points...

to the contrary

"He was sustaining himself ONLY through the strength of the force. It was pouring into him from all sides, filling him with a blazing furnace of pain, devouring him even as it empowered him, burning him alive even as it saved him."

^Explains how Luke was feeling.

" Luke would have ilked to think he had never been quiet this tired to believe he would never again find himself in circumstances quite this desperate. But the truth was, he had been here many times before- in the wampa cave on Hoth, during the Battle of Mindor, on the approach to Qoribu in the Gyuel system in the Unknown Regions. And Luke had no doubt that he would be here many times again. In the years and the decades to come, there would be a hundred occasions when he thought he was dying and a dozen times others had believed he already died."
^This explains how Luke understood that the outcome of this fight was never really in doubt.

And in regards to "Luke was in no condition to be merciful", it was concerning whether or not Luke would make the killing blow when Rhea was distracted.

Originally posted by Gideon


I hate to break it to you, but all evidence here points...

to the contrary

What evidence? So we ignore the fact that Luke can manipulate black holes or fight Jacen and Palpatine ferociously, but we have to accept the fact that he can hardly defeat Lumiya or Rhea? Yea, PIS/CIS

guys... The one example that brings luke down is lumiya. We don't know Rhea's level. Right now we have to put her on par with Caedus in lightsabar ability. (The ability to stay with luke, which is Caedus's main claim to fame)

Originally posted by truejedi
guys... The one example that brings luke down is lumiya. We don't know Rhea's level. Right now we have to put her on par with Caedus in lightsabar ability. (The ability to stay with luke, which is Caedus's main claim to fame)

Or we can tie it to PIS/CIS and say that Caedus would have wtfpwned Rhea and Vestara.

Originally posted by truejedi
(The ability to stay with luke, which is Caedus's main claim to fame)
I would disagree with that(as his only combat feat for "Fame", i would also include in that category how Jaina can't straight up kill him in two fights even when he has one arm.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I would disagree with that(as his only combat feet), i would also include in that category how Jaina can't straight up kill him in two fights even when he has one arm.

undoubtedly, or the katarn fight, but i said his main claim to fame.

Gideon what's the situation with Jag and why Leia and Han are pissed at him (and the jedi?)

that reminds me, that Jag and Jaina moment in the limo actually made me like them as a couple for the first time. that was actually sweet, it was actually an emotional moment between them, instead of the constant macho one-up-manship they do.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Gideon what's the situation with Jag and why Leia and Han are pissed at him (and the jedi?) Jag knew that Daala was planning to hire Mandalorians to contain the Jedi, and he didn't tell Han or Leia or the Jedi.

Originally posted by truejedi
undoubtedly, or the katarn fight, but i said his main claim to fame.

Right, so how can a no name sith can be on that level?

You might want to pop on MSN. I'm currently in the middle of an argument with LS on this very same subject and I'm in no mood to be civil here.

Especially with all of the... reaching.

what is the point though? we wont all agree all the time. this is obviously a matter of interpretation. we all know the pertinent facts. why argue it into the ground?

there are many other amazing things to talk about in this book, like how awesome is troy denning anyway?

Originally posted by Gideon
You might want to pop on MSN. I'm currently in the middle of an argument with LS on this very same subject and I'm in no mood to be civil here.

Especially with all of the... reaching.

I'm on and you aren't. And what reaching? The fact that we're trying to be consistent with the character of Luke Skywalker and you're trying to tell us the most consistency involves him not being that good?

Because I don't tolerate reaching from anyone. I didn't tolerate it from Janus, Nebaris, ect. Why should I tolerate it from anyone else?

Hell, I don't even do it for me.

I will be back.

And there will be suffering...

And pain...

And more suffering...

u wayte



Edit: That was to TJ. Logging back on, DS.

Originally posted by Gideon
Because I don't tolerate reaching from anyone. I didn't tolerate it from Janus, Nebaris, ect. Why should I tolerate it from anyone else?

Hell, I don't even do it for me.

I will be back.

And there will be suffering...

And pain...

And more suffering...

u wayte



Edit: That was to TJ. Logging back on, DS.

lol, i fear, i tremble. I've got a date tonight. I'll be on later.

*Mandatory to maintain hostilities*

Originally posted by truejedi
lol, i fear, i tremble. I've got a date tonight. I'll be on later.

Good luck with that, be sure to bring a lot of money.

And coupons. Lots of coupons.

And don't talk about Star Wars. Or anything else on the internet.

Originally posted by Gideon
Easily.

Empire's End shows Palpatine's personal physician and dark side adepts telling him, point blank, that he brings himself closer to death with each further usage of the Force and when he gives himself to strong emotion. That's why the adepts attempt to disable the Jedi when they intercept Palpatine making his bid to abduct Anakin.

That's a far greater level of physical weakness than Luke, who was able to use the Force to compensate for his weakened body.

Now stop making excuses.







Luke has an attunement to the Force that is without peer, with the exception of Anakin Skywalker. Count Dooku demonstrated the ability to strengthen his frail body to the point of taking on a man with unlimited Force reserves and the great Obi-Wan Kenobi on a whim; Jedi Master I-Get-Winded-Reaching-For-My-Cane Yoda is able to use the Force to strengthen his body to keep up with the aforementioned Count Dooku at a time when Dooku's prodigious powers were being enhanced to an even greater level by the dark side properties of the planet Vjun; Darth Sidious, whose body was failing him as a result of the dark side energies within him, was able to use the Force to strengthen his body to compete with the aforementioned Yoda, blitz four "celebrated swordsmen" when they were prepared, and instakill two Jedi capable of outdueling his dark side adepts at such a time when he was literally on the brink of death.

...And you're telling me that Luke, whom you consider to be more powerful than all the above by a considerable degree, can't do the same against no-name Sith?

Either he's not as powerful as you make him out to be or... well, that seems like the only valid option.



Please. He wasn't dueling Vestara; she stumbled into him, he allowed her to cut him, and he punched her out. That was when he wanted to take Vestara prisoner. Lady Rhea was the one who gave him hell, and he "was in no condition to be merciful."

Try again.



Yoda, Dooku, and Sidious all did better.



You're right. One of them did it as an octogenarian aristo who, prior to that, was on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing vision (among other things). This, again, versus two powerful Jedi -- one of whom was the beneficiary of unlimited Force reserves. The other did it as a diminutive Jedi of nine centuries whose primary mode of transportation was a hover chair, to demonstrate his lack of natural mobility and stamina. And the last did it despite the fact that he was in a natural state of near death due to the nature of the dark side within him.



Great. Now tell me where Rhea was, since Luke clearly owned her.



Obviously. But this isn't the first time Luke has performed subpar. The truth is that he's not nearly as good as you say he is.

K i'll make this quick i'm on my way out of town for the weekend, going camping and bringing my 4 wheelers and jet ski's

as to palpatine getting weaker you said he gets weaker every time he uses the force that in no way comes close to starting off a fight against no-name sith(who can still be powerful even though we haven't seen the full extent of their abilities) already near death. Ben push's for him to get back as soon as he can because his body is going to die soon. He is very weak at this point.

and IMO yoda and dooku using the force to strengthen their bodies isn't in the same league as to what Luke has to do to keep fighting here since againhe is almost DEAD.

how is dooku near force exhaustion in the beginning of ROTS during their fight?

as to the vastera prisoner thing You got me there

BUT as to luke fighting Rhea when he isn't merciful she was in the middle of her "leaps of evasive maneuvers" and Luke just went for the kill.

as to yoda using a hover chair i'd say it'd because he is tiny and even when he was 100 years old or 50 or whatever his prime is he would still use a hover chair because we as larger creatures have WAY longer strides. Yoda using a hover is in no way because he is old and weak it's because for every step mace takes he would have to run to keep up with him.

if i didn't address everything send me a PM and we can continue this over PMing if you'd like when i get back monday.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Or we can tie it to PIS/CIS and say that Caedus would have wtfpwned Rhea and Vestara. I would put it as PIS. Plot induced stupidity.

I see no reason a well unweakened luke skywalker can't smash these no named sith in a neutral setting. (1v1).

I think people are being a little presumptuous with regards to this Aberforth character. What has she actually displayed that's so god like?

Originally posted by Omniverseria
I think people are being a little presumptuous with regards to this Aberforth character. What has she actually displayed that's so god like?

Sure thing buddy.

Originally posted by Omniverseria
I think people are being a little presumptuous with regards to this Aberforth character. What has she actually displayed that's so god like? Well its highly likely shes a celestial or some sort of god like cosmic entity.

DS is speculating that this entity is vastly more powerful than both luke and sidious.

Yea it's a theory me and Gideon discussed. The fact that it draws parallels to The Fallen from Transformers 2.

I feel like someone has crushed a couple of vertebrae in my neck.

But Know that I will be at Journey tomorrow night and that I will subdue my pain and crush the infidelsfinish this thing tonight.

k?

Edit: I will eat, watch an episode of Supernatural, crush the infidels, and then conclude the evening with another episode of Supernatural.

Journey is nothing without Steve Perry.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm delighted that you mention this, because I very nearly forgot. Let's discuss Luke Skywalker and his fallibility.

The movies have made it abundantly clear that the Force was extremely powerful within Luke; it's vague as to whether or not his connection to it was as potent as his father's, but the fact remains that he when he reached his full potential, he would be, at the very least, more powerful than the Emperor. If any of you have bothered to read the pain-in-the-ass essay I wrote on Palpatine, you'd understand that to be more powerful than the Emperor is something that is truly remarkable. Prodigious. In fact, there really are very few words for it.

As of Outcast, Luke is roughly sixty years old. That would make him a little younger than Palpatine circa Revenge of the Sith. Now, I realize that due to the various purges and Palpatine's pettiness towards other Force users that Luke has relatively very little to work with in the way of Force knowledge; he's had to go seek what little he does know out, since Palpatine consumed and destroyed most of the repositories of Jedi knowledge. So while we can conclude that Skywalker's mastery of the Force isn't as deep as say, Yoda's, it is pretty wide given conditions.

So I can accept the fact that his mastery of the Force is not as refined as the Emperor's or Yoda's simply because of his circumstances in lieu of awesome Force-related information.

The problem is combat. As a practical matter, Luke Skywalker has been in more fights to the death than pretty much anyone we've seen in the mythos bar Vader. His refinement and skill with the lightsaber and practical Force applications relative to combat should be peerless. And when I say peerless, I mean it. At this point, there should be no one who could stand up to Luke Skywalker in a straight up engagement and last longer than he feels is necessary.

No one.

Now, does that mean he's infallible, or that he should be? Hardly. We're not even suggesting that he be infallible in combat; just better than everyone else. The fact of the matter is that Skywalker is a man shackled by morality and naivete. That is why, for the most part, Lumiya's performance against him in Legacy of the Force is acceptable. She manipulated the environment, fought by proxy, distracted and deceived. Skywalker had to spend precious Force energy trying to save lives because she preferred not to fight him directly.

So had the Sith in this scenario been the ones to use the environment, to attack by proxy, deception, and misdirection, it would have been understandable. Because that is how a successful Sith fights. He or she "cheats." Furthermore, if we extend the scenario beyond combat and more or less a campaign, there are plenty of scenarios for a lesser opponent to overcome a superior one.

Take Palpatine versus Windu as an example. He lost the fight but won the war; Windu outmatched him in lightsaber combat, but the outcome was Windu's death because Palpatine manipulated Anakin. Luke isn't stupid, but he's far from genius-level. It's more believable that he's outwitted on a regular basis than outfought.

Plenty of options that LFL is apparently too retarded to take. Luke is (and should be) far from infallible. But when it comes to a straight up duel? No one, at this point, should come close.

In his timeframe, anyway.

I see what you're saying but are you also underestimating the unpredictability of a jedi vs jedi fight?

Luke for all his experience (and skill) will on occasion be met with a scenario where he's a little under par (he's getting on in years) or where his opponent is very unconventional.

It may even be that, there are opponents and allies within and without the Jedi order who are more creative than Luke or unpredictable in saber combat.

These type of factors can throw a bit of a monkey wrench into what might initially look like a predictable confrontation.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Journey is nothing without Steve Perry.

You will become the embodiment of humiliation and defeat for your outrageous blasphemy!

First, Perry's a vocal god completely drained of power and skill. The man's sixty friggin' years old and couldn't hit a high note if someone crushed his balls... as we shall soon discover with you!

Second, Journey consists of three extremely talented musicians and their bassist, Ross Valory, who, while not all that talented, is a funny man.

Third, two words: Arnel. Pineda.

Fourth,

no

GAY

Originally posted by Allankles
I see what you're saying but are you also underestimating the unpredictability of a jedi vs jedi fight?

Luke for all his experience (and skill) will on occasion be met with a scenario where he's a little under par (he's getting on in years) or where his opponent is very unconventional.

It may even be that, there are opponents and allies within and without the Jedi order who are more creative than Luke or unpredictable in saber combat.

These type of factors can throw a bit of a monkey wrench into what might initially look like a predictable confrontation.

Age, like Skywalker's physical condition, isn't much of a hurdle. The man has an access to the Force that supercedes anyone in the mythos bar Anakin Skywalker; his Force reserves are ridiculous in size and scope and thus his age and overall physical state means jack...

YOU HEAR THAT DS?!

Red Nemesis
I AM GAY

We don't judge... but KMC has a don't ask, don't tell policy.

Originally posted by Gideon
Age, like Skywalker's physical condition, isn't much of a hurdle. The man has an access to the Force that supercedes anyone in the mythos bar Anakin Skywalker; his Force reserves are ridiculous in size and scope and thus his age and overall physical state means jack...

YOU HEAR THAT DS?!

PIS/CIS

Originally posted by Gideon
We don't judge... but KMC has a don't ask, don't tell policy.

I wonder if a lack of this policy is the reason RH frequents Janus' forum.

And Arnel Pineda is going the way of Steve Perry, only a lot faster.

Originally posted by Gideon
Age, like Skywalker's physical condition, isn't much of a hurdle. The man has an access to the Force that supercedes anyone in the mythos bar Anakin Skywalker; his Force reserves are ridiculous in size and scope and thus his age and overall physical state means jack...

YOU HEAR THAT DS?!

Age does factor but not in the obvious way. The weaker (slower, more frail etc) the body, the more the Jedi has to lean on the force. Even something as simple as a saber block would require drawing deeper into the force for physical strength.

Essentially the focus has to be even greater with age, at some point Luke's mind may waver a little and this could affect his performance in combat now, more so than when he was younger, where he didn't need to focus as much on some of the physical excursions.

Originally posted by Gideon
We don't judge... but KMC has a don't ask, don't tell policy.

Gideon, I don't know how you could have done so, but you seem to have made a mistake in your attempt to quote me. You see, I labeled your plans Gay, specifically the choice to watch Supernatural. I did not write the phrase that you attributed to me.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wonder if a lack of this policy is the reason RH frequents Janus' forum.

My initials are RN. I do not understand why you quoted Gideon's post (which, however mistaken, did in fact refer to me) if you felt the need to speculate on this RH's motives in anything.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gideon, I don't know how you could have done so, but you seem to have made a mistake in your attempt to quote me. You see, I labeled your plans Gay, specifically the choice to watch Supernatural. I did not write the phrase that you attributed to me.



My initials are RN. I do not understand why you quoted Gideon's post (which, however mistaken, did in fact refer to me) if you felt the need to speculate on this RH's motives in anything.

And I've already told you, I've been going with RH since you created your name and that's what I will stick with. And I wasn't speculating. Speculation assumes something could either be true or false. I was merely stating a FACT.

The fact: That you wonder about "my" motive for visiting Janus's forum.

The speculation: Wondering about "my" motives for visiting Janus's forum.

The basis for speculation: Gideon's fayled attempt at a quote.

I think (and this isn't intended to be an insult) that you're arguing out of total ignorance of the situation. Palpatine did start his fight against Leia and company on the verge of death; his entire reason for being planetside to begin with was to procure Anakin Solo as a recepticle for his dark side essence. He wasn't exactly operating on a vast timetable. Carnor Jax and members of the Imperial Interim Ruling Council sabotaged the genetic makeup of Palpatine's clones, causing them to become unnaturally frail. Everytime Palpatine subsequently would call upon the Force or indulge in great emotion, he would bring himself physically closer to death. That is why his dark side adepts attempted to stop the Jedi first, before being cutdown. His physician and adepts both agreed that it was far too dangerous for Palpatine to assume combat duty given the fact that he would only harm himself more if he continued to use the Force.

That is a far more advanced stage of poor health than Luke can claim. And no, Poppunker, it isn't up for debate.



The Revenge of the Sith novelization specifically states that Dooku is on the verge of Force exhaustion, losing coordination and physical sight, which is why he has to use what little energy remains to divide Skywalker and Kenobi; they were becoming too much for him. When he was able to separate them, he called upon the Force "and the weight of his years dropped away," rejuvenating him completely.



What's your point? Luke was in no condition to continue the fight with any sense of morality or restraint; the book makes it very clear. If he wasn't in any danger, he would have been able to. But the line itself is completely unambiguous.

@ the others:

Luke's physical condition should have had no bearing on his performance against Lady Rhea. Numerous examples have been cited of physical inferior or frail individuals who were able to use the Force in such a manner that they transcended their weakness. I'd say Yoda's natural mobility as a creature of nine centuries was more restricted than even Skywalker's at that point, and yet he was able to imbue himself with superhuman levels of agility and speed so as to force Count Dooku -- who, unlike Rhea, is established as being one of the very most powerful and skilled duelists ever -- to retreat on a planet that enhanced the Count's own prodigious abilities. Sidious, too, was in a constant state of extremely poor health; the official site makes it clear that his body was "decaying," and that "the very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him." At best, you might be able to argue that Luke, at this point, was on par with both in physical frailty (though this isn't the case).

Do you know what the tremendous difference is between Yoda and Sidious and Luke? Aside from the fact that Yoda and Sidious were in similar physical states and performed better against opponents who actually mean something in the grand scheme of things, Luke possesses an attunement to the Force beyond either of them. Consider that Anakin's own Force reserves, though he did not master them, transcended Count Dooku's own from the get-go. Though Dooku was more skilled with the Force, he could not keep up with Skywalker simply because the boy's innate strength in the Force kept him from becoming exhausted.

Numerous statements in the book made it clear: Luke was able to temporarily reverse the damage of the atrophied muscles. Page 290 specifically states that Luke drew "on the Force, pulling it into himself to enliven atrophied muscles and restore dead synapses." He also told Ben that he was feeling better every second and not once is Luke's physical condition referenced during his duel with Lady Rhea and Vestara.

The truth to the matter is that if Luke is as powerful and as skilled as you all (DS, TJ, Poppunker, ect.) say he is, then he should have performed much better against a no-name whore and her protege.

The fight at the end is an awesome demonstration of Luke's Jedi ingenuity and deceptive cunning in combat, but it's a far cry from uber Force command and lightsaber skills.

Period.

OR we can ignore all of that and credit this to more PIS/CIS, just like during Luke/Caedus fight.

Originally posted by Gideon



The truth to the matter is that if Luke is as powerful and as skilled as you all (DS, TJ, Poppunker, ect.) say he is, then he should have performed much better against a no-name whore and her protege.


Period.

You are the one that keeps saying he is good enough that he should get through each fight unscathed. I'm perfectly good with him escaping a fight with one wound on his stomach, and defeating his opponent, so this part:



isn't attributible to me. It seems more attributable to u, as you keep bringing up what luke SHOULD HAVE been capable of, other than what he actually was. I haven't made a single excuse for him... I was impressed with the entire conflict, AS WRITTEN, so i don't need excuses for a fight that didn't really change my view of skywalker. Apaprently my view of skywalker is actually lower than yours? I just like him. I like Qui Gonn too, but I don't see him being invincible.

Luke won, its apparent he always wins, and to me, that pretty much means he is bada--. In feat wars, he still rules. I mean... Sidious got thrown down a shaft by vader... do we really want to compare character's weakest moments? No, for sidious, we don't start out bringing up Endor, we start out bringing up his best achievements. They all have weaker moments. Authors do that to make their stories interesting i guess. (Stupid authors.)

Second, i keep asking the question, and you haven't answered, why do you keep calling Rhea and Vestera so pathetic? The only combat we see them in, they go toe-to-toe with a jedi that you keep saying should be peerless. If i am to therefore trust your assessment of luke, then Rhea and Vestera just jumped way up the power chart, that's for sure.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
OR we can ignore all of that and credit this to more PIS/CIS, just like during Luke/Caedus fight.

We're not going to chalk shit up to PIS/CIS simply because you don't like the result. Christ, I feel like I'm constantly echoing myself with you.

If this happened once or twice, we might be able to do that. But that's only if logical solutions are exhausted.

Hell, if I had it my way, the Empire's 25,000 ISD figure, the Republic's three million clone figure, Dark Empire, Crystal Star, most of the Clone Wars, and the existence of post-RotJ "Sith" would all be... PIS.

But that's not the case.

Originally posted by Gideon
We're not going to chalk shit up to PIS/CIS simply because you don't like the result. Christ, I feel like I'm constantly echoing myself with you.

If this happened once or twice, we might be able to do that. But that's only if logical solutions are exhausted.

Hell, if I had it my way, the Empire's 25,000 ISD figure, the Republic's three million clone figure, Dark Empire, Crystal Star, most of the Clone Wars, and the existence of post-RotJ "Sith" would all be... PIS.

But that's not the case.

I thought that WAS the case exactly. That all of that ended up being PIS or retconned or just contradicted. And what do you mean if this only happened once or twice? It happened against Lumiya, and now against Rhea. When else was Luke completely overwhelmed by his inferiors?

completely overwhelmed DS? Did you really need to give him that much to work with?

Ok so why did luke perform so poorly against these no named sith? Is there any answer at all?

Or are these "sith" happened to be as good as luke or perhaps better?

OR like DS said, blatant PIS?

truejedi
You are the one that keeps saying he is good enough that he should get through each fight unscathed. I'm perfectly good with him escaping a fight with one wound on his stomach, and defeating his opponent, so this part:

You didn't read my lecture to Allankles closely enough, then. I was explaining to him what Skywalker should be, not what he is. They are, for obvious reasons, two very different things.







Welcome to KMC; we take circumstances into consideration.





Not even. He has moments where he's up there.



I must have missed the part where Vader challenged him to a duel.

Deleted scene?



Hardly. We didn't just bring up their uber l33t!1!1 moments on Project Holocron and it's an objective part of debating. We bring up Endor when we mention Sidious's immense hubris and the balancing of the Force. He was losing his perception throughout that whole week.



They're all fallible and all have weak moments. But it's to the context. Luke should be at a point where no one alive can stand up to him in a straightforward engagement. Doesn't make him invincible or infallible.





Don't be stupid, TJ.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Ok so why did luke perform so poorly against these no named sith? Is there any answer at all?

Or are these "sith" happened to be as good as luke or perhaps better?

OR like DS said, blatant PIS?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I thought that WAS the case exactly. That all of that ended up being PIS or retconned or just contradicted. And what do you mean if this only happened once or twice? It happened against Lumiya, and now against Rhea. When else was Luke completely overwhelmed by his inferiors?

For an all powerful Force god of death? He failed to own Lumiya, who was hopelessly outmatched by Tresina Lobi despite the fact that Alema was there to lend a hand (the same Lumiya who lost a Force contest to Nelani). His subsequent victory over Lumiya came when she lost her footing after a struggle; he didn't outmaneuver her in a blaze of badass skill. Despite having numerous advantages, he failed to own Caedus in single combat. He was losing to Kueller, he was losing to Desann, he lost to the spirit of Exar Kun/Kyp Durron, he was losing to a slightly modified droideka even with Mara Jade on his side, he failed to own the Hidden One, and his wonderfully tragic performance here.

On the other hand, he won a shoving contest against Caedus once, and another time when Caedus was unprepared. He did manage to exert some measure of control over a black hole (very impressive). He demonstrated considerable telekinesis when he rebuilt and demolished Vader's fortress. And he performed as a one man army at the end of the Unifying Force (though this performance was under the influence of a battle-meld, and therefore doesn't count as one of his own feats).

Seems like a toss up to me.

Originally posted by Gideon
For an all powerful Force god of death? He failed to own Lumiya, who was hopelessly outmatched by Tresina Lobi despite the fact that Alema was there to lend a hand (the same Lumiya who lost a Force contest to Nelani). His subsequent victory over Lumiya came when she lost her footing after a struggle; he didn't outmaneuver her in a blaze of badass skill. Despite having numerous advantages, he failed to own Caedus in single combat. He was losing to Kueller, he was losing to Desann, he lost to the spirit of Exar Kun/Kyp Durron, he was losing to a slightly modified droideka even with Mara Jade on his side, he failed to own the Hidden One, and his wonderfully tragic performance here.

On the other hand, he won a shoving contest against Caedus once, and another time when Caedus was unprepared. He did manage to exert some measure of control over a black hole (very impressive). He demonstrated considerable telekinesis when he rebuilt and demolished Vader's fortress. And he performed as a one man army at the end of the Unifying Force (though this performance was under the influence of a battle-meld, and therefore doesn't count as one of his own feats).

Seems like a toss up to me.

I love how you bring up the "Caedus was unprepared" angle. I think we've been over that and the book was quite clear that being prepared was irrelevant, and that Caedus was in no way going to get out of Luke's TK when Luke was mad. So what do we have left? The fact that Luke is a shitty fighter but a ridiculously powerful force user, judging by all of the feats listed on wikipedia(I can't remember them all).

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Ok so why did luke perform so poorly against these no named sith? Is there any answer at all?

Or are these "sith" happened to be as good as luke or perhaps better?

OR like DS said, blatant PIS?

A simple reason: Skywalker isn't as good as people make him out to be. And LFL is retarded.

Alas, if only that were reason enough to ignore some of the dumber things...

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I love how you bring up the "Caedus was unprepared" angle.

The narration specifically mentions it. As to whether or not it would have been irrelevant? That's open to speculation. Personally, I like to think that it would have meant that Skywalker would have simply had to exert a lot more effort to hold him, but that Caedus would ultimately have been unsuccessful.

But, as we've seen, my ideas about what Skywalker should be is something that LFL doesn't agree with.

Originally posted by Gideon
The narration specifically mentions it. As to whether or not it would have been irrelevant? That's open to speculation. Personally, I like to think that it would have meant that Skywalker would have simply had to exert a lot more effort to hold him, but that Caedus would ultimately have been unsuccessful.

But, as we've seen, my ideas about what Skywalker should be is something that LFL doesn't agree with.

if you want, I'll get the book out and give you the exact quotes which explicitly state that Caedus didn't have a chance with Luke being pissed off, prepared or not.

hmmm... so you are insinuating that Luke is weak but lucky?

(don't forget the ridiculous mind games he played with Caedus, (illusions, etc.) if you are naming his more impressive feats))

another use for PH could be to pull together every feat for these top characters (with page number, etc) and compare. We always look at isolated incidents instead of a body of work. \

The sidious essay was the first place where a lot of these feats were all put together for a single character, but not all were sourced to page numbers even then. (not that pg. numbers are always necessary, but they help nail it down, and exact quotes are more useful than an intepretation)

We should just do it for the top tier characters.

Sidious, Luke, Vader, Yoda, Windu, Caedus, etc....

If not PH, then maybe another feats thread.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
if you want, I'll get the book out and give you the exact quotes which explicitly state that Caedus didn't have a chance with Luke being pissed off, prepared or not.

Certainly.

Originally posted by Gideon
Certainly.

K just tell me which LOTF book it is so I can get it out.

truejedi
hmmm... so you are insinuating that Luke is weak but lucky?

It would be tragic for you for me to use my ignore function after your sabbatical. Go back and find where I said or suggested that Luke "is weak."

If not, keep your outraged bias to yourself.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
K just tell me which LOTF book it is so I can get it out.

His fight with Luke? Inferno.

just saw this too: in Inferno, Pg. 105, Luke appears before Jacen, warns him, then vanishes. It is never explained. Caedus confirms that it was indeed Luke himself, not an illusion. What happened there? Did luke teleport with the force?


Also, in regards to luke taking caedus by surprise:
pg. 135:

" While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort--and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."

Okay, joking aside, you might as well use PH. And as for the rest? I came across all those feats and quotes for Sidious after four years of research and debating. I haven't the energy to try it again with another character.

Time to pass on the torch.

Edit: Nothing new there, sport.

Originally posted by truejedi
just saw this too: in Inferno, Pg. 105, Luke appears before Jacen, warns him, then vanishes. It is never explained. Caedus confirms that it was indeed Luke himself, not an illusion. What happened there? Did luke teleport with the force?


Also, in regards to luke taking caedus by surprise:
pg. 135:

" While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort--and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."

Luke used some esoteric force technique. Also, read on after page 135. Since you have the book open I don't want to bother. But I think that quote should suffice. ALthough, I thought there was more.


Not to mention, Luke used some kind of illusion to make Caedus think he was fighting him instead of Jaina, and then meditated hard enough to alter Caedus' visions.

I think the clear picture here is that Luke is definitely THE Force powerhouse. However, his fighting abilities are severely lacking. I don't know why that is, especially because I think he should be a better fighter than force user, and it certainly isn't consistent with his fights against caedus and the Vong. So who knows.

Originally posted by Gideon
It would be tragic for you for me to use my ignore function after your sabbatical. Go back and find where I said or suggested that Luke "is weak."

If not, keep your outraged bias to yourself.

i obviously meant weaker than your previous assessment of what he should be. that is what we were discussing, and what you quoted yourself saying repeatedly, no?

meh, its not that important in the end i guess.

Darth Sexy
But I think that quote should suffice.

You thought wrong.



Twice.

Originally posted by Gideon
You thought wrong.



Twice.

IF that is all the quote has to offer, then it doesn't change anything. Whether or not Caedus was prepared is irrelevant. Luke was able to hold him with "no visible" effort, while Caedus was struggling to get out. Unles you're suggesting that once a powerful force user has you, you can't escape, the fact remains that Luke has MORE than enough feats to be a force titan. It's his saber battles that make me scream PIS or "you suck".

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


I think the clear picture here is that Luke is definitely THE Force powerhouse. However, his fighting abilities are severely lacking. I don't know why that is, especially because I think he should be a better fighter than force user, and it certainly isn't consistent with his fights against caedus and the Vong. So who knows.

i could go with that.

I think you were lookinng for this quote DS

"Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke-Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the force..."

or maybe:

"Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead."

or

"Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack--had he been that foolish."


But nothing new really. It is pretty much accepted that Luke definitly had Caedus's number. He played him for a fool throughout LOTF.

I would argue that it may be more or less akin to erecting a dam in an already flooded area. Get there too late, you might be able to stop the flow of water, but both sides remain wet.

Logic dictates, since Caedus is obviously weaker than his uncle, that it would be more likely that he could have stopped or resisted the attack if prepared than trying to overpower his uncle's superior telekinesis and then try to keep him out.

Originally posted by Gideon
I would argue that it may be more or less akin to erecting a dam in an already flooded area. Get there too late, you might be able to stop the flow of water, but both sides remain wet.

Logic dictates, since Caedus is obviously weaker than his uncle, that it would be more likely that he could have stopped or resisted the attack if prepared than trying to overpower his uncle's superior telekinesis and then try to keep him out.

How does logic dictate that?I don't even think your analogy is sound for this kind of argument How about this? Logic dictates that despite caedus' best efforts at getting out of Luke's death grip while Luke showed no visible effort, it follows that even if Caedus had been prepared Luke would have done the exact same thing to him.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
IF that is all the quote has to offer, then it doesn't change anything. Whether or not Caedus was prepared is irrelevant. Luke was able to hold him with "no visible" effort, while Caedus was struggling to get out. Unles you're suggesting that once a powerful force user has you, you can't escape, the fact remains that Luke has MORE than enough feats to be a force titan. It's his saber battles that make me scream PIS or "you suck".

and here is what makes me think PIS. What saber battle author is going to write " And then luke dodge the guys attack and cut off his head, and then faster than the other 6 guys could move, luke zipped around the room lopping off their heads too. "

I mean, that makes really boring lit in a hurry.

Even ROTS novelization (based directly off the MOVIE) doesn't give Sidious the credit of a speedrush, because that is just boring.

Originally posted by truejedi
i could go with that.

I think you were lookinng for this quote DS

"Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke-Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the force..."

or maybe:

"Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about, Caedus knew he would already be dead."

or

"Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack--had he been that foolish."


But nothing new really. It is pretty much accepted that Luke definitly had Caedus's number. He played him for a fool throughout LOTF.

And yet Luke couldn't defeat Rhea.. So I guess there's 3 possibilities.

1. Rhea could rival Caedus(EL OH EL)
2. PIS/CIS
3. Luke sucks at combat

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How does logic dictate that?I don't even think your analogy is sound for this kind of argument How about this? Logic dictates that despite caedus' best efforts at getting out of Luke's death grip while Luke showed no visible effort, it follows that even if Caedus had been prepared Luke would have done the exact same thing to him.

No.

Caedus wasn't prepared for the assault. It's like leaving your front door wide open and trying to force a man out of your house as opposed to having the front door shut and locked and him still trying to get in.

Force defense makes a difference; compare all the telekinetic feats in the world. Obi-Wan being able to deflect Anakin's attack in RotS because he was prepared versus Dooku's sudden strike during their duel. Force defenses are hard to penetrate.

come now. He defeated Rhea, and there is no indication that he won't defeat Rhea without the fire-fight between Ben and Ship.

Caedus should have been ready for the telekinses attack. Indeed, he is ready for it. He is preparing for combat, he has all his traps in place, and everything else. The part that surprised him was that Luke was able to attack him without a gesture.

Its not like the attack itself came as a surprise.

(You've got the source on that, right? Or do i need to quote it?)

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

Caedus wasn't prepared for the assault. It's like leaving your front door wide open and trying to force a man out of your house as opposed to having the front door shut and locked and him still trying to get in.

Force defense makes a difference; compare all the telekinetic feats in the world. Obi-Wan being able to deflect Anakin's attack in RotS because he was prepared versus Dooku's sudden strike during their duel. Force defenses are hard to penetrate.

Caedus was prepared for assault. Just not for an attack that came without luke raising his hand. (Pg. 133-134)

but this is rehashing territory we have been through before methinks.

Oh, and agreed about the force defenses thing too.

truejedi
come now.

Uh huh...





"While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort -- and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."

Yeah, we're done here.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

Caedus wasn't prepared for the assault. It's like leaving your front door wide open and trying to force a man out of your house as opposed to having the front door shut and locked and him still trying to get in.

Force defense makes a difference; compare all the telekinetic feats in the world. Obi-Wan being able to deflect Anakin's attack in RotS because he was prepared versus Dooku's sudden strike during their duel. Force defenses are hard to penetrate.

Wonderful, so it's your speculation that something different would have happened if he was "prepared". In fact by your analogy, you're implying he would have stopped Luke's assault. Seeing as how he did everything in his power to get out of it and Luke still showed no visible effort, it's highly unlikely anything would have changed. At the very MOST, Luke might have had to exert a little more energy with the same outcome.

Originally posted by Gideon
Uh huh...





"While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort -- and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion."

Yeah, we're done here.

Yea we are, because your speculation that things would have turned out differently is just that. Unwarranted speculation. The book makes it explicitly clear. "NO VISIBLE EFFORT". That doesn't mean "IF HE WAS PREPARED HE WOULD HAVE STOPPED IT!!"