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So here's Lich King in all his glory and theory against Azeroth as one, united army. There are no restrictions on Lich King beyond his personality and all that would fall under the 'common sense' category.

Azeroth will be working with the "army" rule here on the forum and all those that would join in in Azeroth, will now. Lich King will have the Scourge at his disposal much like how Azeroth will have their forces.

So here's the thread: If Lich King would decide to once and for all bring Azeroth to its knees and utterly annihilate anyone that lived, could he make it. This is basically the Scourge Vs. Azeroth, only with emphesis on "Lich King" and none particular name of resistance beyond the name of the planet.

This thread is all personalities taken in consideration, as well as all sides. Think of it as the plot to a new book, one that not necessarily has a happy ending.

Depends on what you mean by Azeroth. Namely; Dragon Aspects.

I figure if 2 or more are dedicated to his defeat then he doesn't stand a chance.

Other forces could also influence, like Zul'Gurub and Ragnaros in Molten Core.

Or do you just mean horde and alliance?

Very good topic though =) lots of potential either way

All factors, although Ragnaros will not be inter-fearing. Also, given how personality is taken in consideration, nor will Ysera or Nozdormu.

The enemy frontiers I imagine will be Deathwing, Korialstrasz, Thrall, Jaina and Malfurion. Them along with their forces, as well as other leaders and big names.

Of course, Lich King needs to be taken in consideration as well. He is a master schemer after all.

I'll also point out that since this is current date, Malygos is dead.

Hmmm, Well i think that the combined forces of Azeroth will indeed have a tough time.

I think it greatly depends. Personally i think throughout the expansion LK has been underestimated and the like. So first of all, i would consider his plans to kill Tiroin Fordring successful. Which is a kick in the ass for team Azeroth.

I think somewhere along the like Varian dies too, because i say so.

I think for me to really call it, you say Current?

Cataclysm Deathwing
or
Current slumbering Deathwing?
;p

Since Cataclysm is not yet officially released and we don't know exactly what characters and events that are brought into play, I'll go ahead and say that it's only as recent as World of Warcraft is at this date.

Deathwing is still inside Grim Batol, but would certainly exit when the world is ending. So if Lich King comes near "victory", Deathwing will reveal himself. This if the majority of the Azerothian forces is in ruins.

Is the Lich King being a active combatent on the field ore more withdrawn?

Originally posted by Utrigita
Is the Lich King being a active combatent on the field ore more withdrawn?

Active. He's leading the assault where he sees approriate and sends lieutenants to do the rest (Kel'Thuzad and others. Anub'Arak is dead, so he's out of the question)

Ok this is what I think based on WC3+FT and a little of WoW:

LK sends his legions of scourge out across the world, the sheer number and size of the forces as well as their fairly high quality could probably fairly easily destroy most of the the opposing forces, I cant see the armies of the major races such as Orcs, men, night elves etc standing up against legions of deathless warriors, each one taking huge punishment before succombing to physical limit, most of them having highly powerful magic, contagions that will sweep like disease across the land as well as every foe dropping to the ground being raised by necromancers, adding to the scourge ranks.

Also the LK not only numbers but power, frost wyrms, flesh giants, all the huge undead spiders like those in Naxx (Maexxana?) as well as the giant who exists in there (Thaddius?). The huge numbers of the scourge are unified under the LK will as countless great minds who have been made part of the scourge (Kelthuzard and other magic users) so the greater powers of any who wish to help Azeroth (aspects, prob only a few since apprently Noz wont help and Deathwing would be causing his own mayhem) are divided, unlike the huge giants and wyrms of the scourge who fight together.

I think LK will personally move to the remains of Galakrond and will use all his power to raise the dragon from the ice, the enormous wyrm now destroying most of the land, crushing any aspect who attempt to face him.

The LK hmiself I think would use his mentla powers to corrupt most armies up against him, aspects will fight aspects, orcs vs Tauren, men vs gnomes and elves etc etc

Azeroth will probably take this, The red Dragons alone will cause devastation in the Lich King's armies, then add in that poison that the Forsaken has invented to use on undead, and lastly we have the Naga in the water with the dear Azshara too not to mention the Kirin Tor, Blood Elves etc, I simply doesn't see how the Scourge can keep reproducing itself fast enough to keep up with the numbers that they are going to lose in this battle to magic alone.

I think that once it gets bad enough that DeathWing gets involved, if it does get that bad, Azeroth takes it for certain.

Thaddius is useless. So would Maexxna be. It's the big names that would reveal themselves if the Scourge would ever clash with Azeroth in a full-scale assault. I'm talking about Kel'Thuzad, Sindragosa, Faerlina, Horsemen, Grobbulus and the other really dangerous ones.

Useless? how can they possibly useless, your the one saying its against the whole of Azeroth, even the lowliest entities of the scourge will be important. And Thaddius can create polarity within the opposing armies, reversing it so the whole army destroys itself...hardly seems useless.

No, Thaddius was really useless. He's been encountered in lore and he was really pathetic. He doesn't have polarity change in lore, which even though the Ashbringer serie proves should be a given by default.

What did he do in lore? also the fact he didnt use it in lore does not mean he never had it, Blizzard have given it to him in the raid, it could simply be PIS that he did not use it in lore. You cant strip entities of powers they have just because in lore they did not display it.

If Thaddius had polarity change, he wipes armies by himself because they could never flee far enough to escape their opposite polarity when their in a battle line, the very idea is absurd since so many people could not be so disciplined anyway. They would all die.

His polarity change is a passive ability, I assume you know. It's not his choice to use or not. It would be like asking Deathwing to stop bleeding lava.
The reason Thaddius has that ability is for the same reason that many other bosses has particular abilities. Do you really think High Priest Thekal for example can come back to life for all eternity when you kill him? Or that a meteor does less damage if twenty people stand closer to eachother? I can't imagine a meteor dealing more damage to me if I stand ten feet away from it than if I stand directly under it.

Thaddius having polarity change is not canon, so I'll not allow it for this thread. Even then, Thaddius is frail enough to be killed by a single dragon, not even necessarily a powerful one. He was downed by mere physical force by a gang of above averag warriors.

Watch Thaddius die in canon. Watch what a mere human can do:


http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/1981/image019b.jpg

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
His polarity change is a passive ability, I assume you know. It's not his choice to use or not. It would be like asking Deathwing to stop bleeding lava.
The reason Thaddius has that ability is for the same reason that many other bosses has particular abilities. Do you really think High Priest Thekal for example can come back to life for all eternity when you kill him? Or that a meteor does less damage if twenty people stand closer to eachother? I can't imagine a meteor dealing more damage to me if I stand ten feet away from it than if I stand directly under it.

Thaddius having polarity change is not canon, so I'll not allow it for this thread. Even then, Thaddius is frail enough to be killed by a single dragon, not even necessarily a powerful one. He was downed by mere physical force by a gang of above averag warriors.

Ofc but that does not make it any less impressive.

Your trying to make the ability uncanon just because its in WoW gameplay? People standing together for a meteor to do less damage is indeed gameplay mechanics but an actual ability is not a gameplay mechanic, its effects may be depending on the ability although the core function of Thaddius' polarity is all it is, its got no mechanic behind it that wouldnt make sense in lore.

So you do not allow it....it is canon if your reasoning is simply that you think its a mechanic or that its in WoW but if you did allow it, it would wreck armies apart with ease. Also i doubt that human killing him was weak.

The reason I say it's not canon is because what defines Thaddius in the raids he has been part of, is his polarity charge. That's what has made him famous, and in a canon encounter with Thaddius, he not only doesn't show any sign of having this ability. The only ability Thaddius use, is a magnetic pull which deals no damage at all.

For the entire duration of the fight, Darion was able to not only effortlessly avoid harm from Thaddius, but he could kill him in a single slash.
What you are saying, is that we should instead of using the canon version of Thaddius use a gameplay version from a game which is notorious for its TERRIBLE interpretation and description of lore. The same game that has over and over again shown to not give the actual canon story of an encounter.
The game that has been acknowledged by Blizzard employees as well as Chris Metzen to not be accurate in terms of lore. The scaling is beyond terrible, both size-wise and power-wise.

There's at least ten books that has revised lore as it is encountered in the Warcraft games, and more are coming. World of Warcraft isn't lore accurate. Take Molten Core and Ragnaros for example: According to canon, Ragnaros is awake and Molten Core has not been disruted by Horde nor Alliance.
Then there's Onyxia: In canon, when she is revealed to be someone else than Lady Prestor, she takes Anduin Wrynn with her.
There are many examples of this.


But let's take Thaddius "power" in consideration then. It only stretches for the near vicinity of his presence. People at a certain distance, not actually very far away won't be affected by it. Given how frail Thaddius is in canon, I'll go ahead and list a few characters that could SOLO him:
- Sylvanas (Stomp)
- Tyrande
- Varian (Stomp)
- Korialstrasz (Stomp)
- Thrall (Stomp)
- Alleria
- Vereesa
- Rhonin
and more.


So lets again take Thaddius in consideration. What do you think the Azerothian people are? Idiots? If people die in the presence of Thaddius, they won't be sending more people on him.
There are three reasons why even if he had polarity shift, he'd be useless:

1. Thaddius is charged up by Naxxramas. He'd run out of power soon enough. When encountered, he draw electricity from nearby electronic devices in order to activate. He was powered down when they first noticed him, as well as when you encounter him in the game: This would mean that there's a limitation to his powersource.

2. Thaddius is incredibly slow. This can be noted in both game as well as canon appearance.

3. His polarity shift has incredibly short range. If you're on the other side of the room you fight him in during your raid, polarity effects doesn't apply to you.
So given the scale difference in World of Warcraft in comparison to true lore, and taken both the raid encounter and the canon encounter in consideration (The room in which they fight), I'd estimate the maximum range of his polarity shift to be around twenty meters. Maybe thirty. Fourty is a stretch, but not unreasonable.
The distance required between two people then if under the influence of this ability would be roughly five meters.



NOTE: Thaddius was killed by a young HUMAN with no notable powers. Soloed really. I'll also point out that if only one person fight Thaddius, his polarity shift is USELESS. The only strength that Polarity Shift really has, is that it can create destruction amongst the enemies of Thaddius. The lesser the enemies, the lower the risk that the ability is harmless.
Another note would be that if you're alone, polarity shift doesn't effect you at all.

A third note would be that Thaddius would kill his own, since polarity shift is a passive ability with no implications of being intelligent. It applies to people within his vicinity, and has shown no ability to tell enemy apart from friend.



Bottom line:

Thaddius is useless with, or without polarity shift. With, or without gameplay. With, or without World of Warcraft boss mechanics. With, or without his canon appearance in consideration.

He's pathetic really.

But no, given how in his canon appearance Thaddius did not have a polarity shift worth noting, I'm not going to take it in consideration for this thread, even if Thaddius is as useless with, as without.

Why would you say his polarity shift makes him famous yet him not useing it in the apparent canon, also what makes you say WoW is not canon? Blizzard changes a lot of events and claims certain things do not happen but it does not mean each entity in the game that is not player made is not canon, nor does it mean their abilities are not. Him not useing this power in the "lore" does not mean it doe snot exist. Also if theres only one guy there why would he use something that needs several. This notes to it being him who casts it and not necesserily passive.

So the human has no powers whatsoever? no special weapons or anything, hes just a bloke in armour and with a sword?

What do you mean wont be sending more people on him? you make it sound like theres only going to be a couple of characters, you said the whole of Azerot so this means the armies? they wont have a chance of escapaing, you cant have a whole army retret from him, and if they did it would be an incredible advantage to have fleeing troops in disarray against the LK scourge.

Even if we assume he is soft and easy to destroy he could still wade amongst the regular soldiers, killing scores of them by his mere presence while the main scourge stand back, then when he is dead the scourge face a weakened force, greatly weakened.

Also what makes you note Grobbulus or the Horseman as more dangerous?

The lich king to me is an obvious winner being able to summon hordes of undead to kill horde & alliance then revive those who were killed as more undead....he has an endluss army of obeying soldiers willing to do anything to satisfy there king...clearly lich king is the winner

i think hes just obviously more powerful, hes rated higher than all entities thus far, including old Gods who are respected and feared.

Originally posted by Burning thought
i think hes just obviously more powerful, hes rated higher than all entities thus far, including old Gods who are respected and feared.

No. So much no that simply using the word "no" is not enough. Lich King would win due to sheer numbers and strategy if anything, not due to individual power. There are numerous characters that can bring Lich King down. Two has already been close.

Whom have come close? and the LK has never attacked anyone majorly himself at all, he just seems to appear now and then to take on one character at a time, hes doing more of a kiljaeden tactic, sit behind lines and let your forces do the work yet your own power is stll far greater than your forces.

By WoW system Pantheon member>Lich king>Old god>aspect

Although notable that the titan Archavon or w/e his name is, is rated lower than LK and Deathwing it would seem.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Whom have come close? and the LK has never attacked anyone majorly himself at all, he just seems to appear now and then to take on one character at a time, hes doing more of a kiljaeden tactic, sit behind lines and let your forces do the work yet your own power is stll far greater than your forces.

By WoW system Pantheon member>Lich king>Old god>aspect

Although notable that the titan Archavon or w/e his name is, is rated lower than LK and Deathwing it would seem.

Tirion Fordring and Sylvanas has both been close at killing the Lich King. Sylvanas still has the poison that was used by Putress and could use it again. Tirion Fordring is a Paladin unlike any other and has injured Lich King twice, forced him to retreat once.

Darion Mograine knows various weaknesses in the Scourge and can and would use that to their advantage. Sylvanas has been stated able to FEEL the Lich King, so he'll never ambush a force that has Sylvanas in it.

The Scourge was unable to enter Quel'Thalas at first, and would've failed had it not been for Dar'Khan. And Quel'Thalas was safeguarded by only a band of rangers, Sylvanas being the arrow head.

All-in-all, the Scourge forces are rather pathetic. The Lich King is far from invincible and given his combat showings, would be no match for characters of Aspect level.


According to WoW system:
Lich King = Aspect > Old Gods > Random soldier > Dar'Khan
Don't use WoW to determine level of power.

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/6205/image007agq.jpg

Behold the mighty scourge. A common magician one-shot a Frostwyrm and Jaina one-shot a Necropolis. In any battle, Undead drop like flies. Raising the dead only gets you so far when you lose more troops than the enemies.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Tirion Fordring and Sylvanas has both been close at killing the Lich King. Sylvanas still has the poison that was used by Putress and could use it again. Tirion Fordring is a Paladin unlike any other and has injured Lich King twice, forced him to retreat once.

Darion Mograine knows various weaknesses in the Scourge and can and would use that to their advantage. Sylvanas has been stated able to FEEL the Lich King, so he'll never ambush a force that has Sylvanas in it.

The Scourge was unable to enter Quel'Thalas at first, and would've failed had it not been for Dar'Khan. And Quel'Thalas was safeguarded by only a band of rangers, Sylvanas being the arrow head.

All-in-all, the Scourge forces are rather pathetic. The Lich King is far from invincible and given his combat showings, would be no match for characters of Aspect level.


According to WoW system:
Lich King = Aspect > Old Gods > Random soldier > Dar'Khan
Don't use WoW to determine level of power.

Arthas was not the lich King when sylvanas poisoned him....if thats what your talking about?

Scourge forces pathetic? just because they didnt enter a few cities? they swept across the world, are perhaps the largest force currently on Azeroth and speaking of lore and probably far more powerful, every minor grunt in the horse or soldier of the alliance certainly could not stand against a deathless skeleton, especially not if they just rise again through necromancy. The scourge have wyrms and larger entities than the other forces as well....and their own sorcerers, infact their sorcerers are arguably stronger as they are older and have had a longer time to learn their art, so they are already sorceroers only enhanced by the LK immortality gift. Liches as well.

Why? until theres cold hard evidence WoW is the best gauge on their power, until you have a book of Lich King getting defeated by useing his full power simply because someone is stronger than him then we can have a solid gauge. same with most of the other characters. And what claims a random soldier killed Dar'Khan in canon? since I assume he has his own accurate lore canon behind him?

one shot? whos to say that wyrm was destroyed? just looks like it was harmed to me....and Jaina is hardly a basic mage either, shes probably one of the more powerful.

Alright.

Here's a shaman one-shotting a Frostwyrm:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/817/image006ltz.jpg

Here's Varian Wrynn one-shotting a Frostwyrm:

http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4610/image005fft.jpg

It looks like the Dragon is still talking to the Shman or w/e it was who fired at it, not dieing.

And that looks like an unlikely PIS moment for a warrior to somehow slice the head off of a wyrm with his sword...

And what about Galakrond? if LK raises him what chance does anyone stand?

The one that spoke was Kel'Thuzad and not anyone on the field. When Thrall toppled the necropolis, you see a massive shade in the background. That's an illusion forged by Kel'Thuzad.

Galakrond is likely larger than even Dargonax. It would take the strongest mages in the Alliance to bring him down. But it's fact that an undead being is less durable than its living form (Generally)

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
But it's fact that an undead being is less durable than its living form (Generally)

is this fact shown through actual canon comparisons?

It's widely known and brought up at numerous occasions. It also, for what science is worth, makes sense that they are less durable.

Here's an example though, just to ease your pondering some:

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9893/image021z.jpg

In the mid-square of the panel you see a thrown sword chopping an undead in half. This effect would not have been on a human, because there's so much more than just bones to cut through.

Your common garden-variety undead are obviously less durable than living beings.

Which is what the majority of the Lich King forces consist of. Abominations and the likes take time to create, since they are sown together and not raised.

Yes but their still powerful, more powerful than the typical soldier or night and would be damned hard to kill, not to mension they expell poision, most of the undead have toxic gas and disease coming from them, hell a corpse can cause disease....

That is true. Varian confirms that exact ability in one of the later volumes of the comic. They take less beating, but they are more dangerous. That only gets them so far though, against magicians.

Well both sides have magicians, the Scourge side arguably far more powerful based on the fact their ancient, likely wiser, their immortal and liches, I dont think they can die unless you destroy their physlacy or however you spell it.

Not necessarily true. It's correct that undead magicians has certain advantages, such as no stamina to worry about, resistance to mental magic and various undead benefits.
One of the strongest magicians in the world is in fact undead (Although not working for Scourge nor Forsaken)

However, the top magicians of the world are still living.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well both sides have magicians, the Scourge side arguably far more powerful based on the fact their ancient, likely wiser, their immortal and liches, I dont think they can die unless you destroy their physlacy or however you spell it.

You mean 'phylactery'? You'd think they'd be more powerful too, but they generally aren't.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Not necessarily true. It's correct that undead magicians has certain advantages, such as no stamina to worry about, resistance to mental magic and various undead benefits.
One of the strongest magicians in the world is in fact undead (Although not working for Scourge nor Forsaken)

However, the top magicians of the world are still living.

Like whom? Kelthuzard is a damn powerful magician, and when you say mages so generally surely a Lich or an older immortla magican would be more powerful than the living one who would have his mortal flesh to hold him back.

Meryl Winterstorm. If I've done the math right, he's powerful beyond Kel'Thuzad and even Aegwynn.

But Meryl is an undead mage. Sure he isn't part of the courge or the forsaken but he is still undead.

I know. He asked who the undead mage I was thinking about was.

Lich King will be a boss in the next patch. As of next patch, Alliance and Horde assault the Icecrown Citadel and Lich King will be the final boss. The battle will take place on a plateu where his throne is located.

Appearantly, one of his abilities is that he can shatter the ground beneath his target and have them fall into the abyss.

I just hope Blizzard had better make it an epic fight, hesw been the major boss in the minds of a lot of people, always people were talking about fighting the LK at level 100 or w/e they fantasised back when we were all leveling to 60. If they make him predictable or boring then It would be a great shame.

Actually, most Wrath of the Lich King players I've spoken to has wanted to fight him already on level 80. Only a handfew has wanted to wait for him to make an appearance.
Because World of Warcraft is lore inaccurate, most don't care which level they fight him on for as long as it's a good fight.
Level 100 is, if coming at all, a long time away and I can't imagine anyone wanting to wait that long for him. At least not if you're any fan of the Lich King.

I doubt he dies, though. According to Cataclysm, the war against the Lich King continues even at the point where Deathwing rises, and he doesn't rise until next year. You fight Lich King this year.


For this expansion, we'll be fighting Ragnaros at full power. Not his greatly weakened self that reside in Molten Core.

No i meant, they were not hoping for level 100 lich king, they assumed that would be the level we fight him at.

full power? leutentant of the armies of the old gods kind of full power?

not that ill ever face either of them, I am a weak level 80, not one of the epic ones.

Yeah, we're attacking the fortress of Ragnaros on the elemental plane. According to Chris Metzen, he's this time at full power.

hm, seems I best start doing some more heroics and 10 man naxx lol....ive not even stepped foot in Ulduar or coliseum

There's far too many factors in order for the Lich King to survive an open assault on Azeroth.