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rachel toyed with the female herald nova but has had her fair share of lower showings as well. how would she fair against the greatest of the heralds . . .?

Surfer wins.

Siding with Rachel.

Surfer

hey goob, enyalus thinks rach wins . . .

If Rach remembers that she's the embodiment of one of the fundamental forces of the universe and brings her her A-game(IE beating Galactus) she'd win. Going by her average portrayal though... Surfer would win a significant majority against her.

why does everyone say she beat galactus?

Originally posted by darthgoober
If Rach remembers that she's the embodiment of one of the fundamental forces of the universe and brings her her A-game(IE beating Galactus) she'd win. Going by her average portrayal though... Surfer would win a significant majority against her.

i agree with this. rachel had her ass handed to her by thor as well. classic thor. then she was cut throat with necrom who was the anti-phoenx and both of them were tossing moons and planets at each other. gettng trapped in the sun, etc... that rachel would stomp surfer.

Originally posted by leonidas
why does everyone say she beat galactus?
Because she managed to beat him while he was trying to eat a planet. No KO though.

no she didn't . . . jean did that in a what if. rachel has never beaten galactus.

Surfer.

Originally posted by leonidas
no she didn't . . . jean did that in a what if. rachel has never beaten galactus.

The Phoenix Force managed to protect Rachel while in a coma. This was a weakened Galactus, IIRC. Excalibur issue.

rachel wasn't in a coma . . . galactus was going to erase the PF. rachel resisted and then rethought the decision, figuring a battle between her and g would be too devastating so she willing submitted to g's wishes and let him try and remove the PF. turns out that wasn't such a great idea though as it is a fundamental force. g relented.

yes, she was in a coma. she wasn't in charge of the PF. PF protected her. Rachel and the Phoenix have met on more than one occasion.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
yes, she was in a coma. she wasn't in charge of the PF. PF protected her. Rachel and the Phoenix have met on more than one occasion.

protected her from galactus? where? issue #?

Originally posted by leonidas
protected her from galactus? where? issue #?

I believe it was in 62 of Excalibur. Here is a paragraph explaining the event.

BTW, the issue you are referring to is probably this one.

http://www.milehighcomics.com/cgi-bin/backissue.cgi?action=fullsize&issue=30205696326%2025

For you, Leonidas:

Originally posted by id369
Excalibur volume 1, issue #61

Rachael vs Galactus.
An interesting match, we know that the Phoenix Force is well above a Herald of Galactus. What about a Hungry Galactus? Apparently a league above him as well.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1336/excalibur061p04yw3.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6752/excalibur061p05qi0.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/3867/excalibur061p06us5.jpg
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/6751/excalibur061p07di0.jpg
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/9130/excalibur061p11fx6.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/8222/excalibur061p14wf5.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6375/excalibur061p17be6.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3251/excalibur061p20rs8.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/6810/excalibur061p21cw1.jpg
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/273/excalibur061p22mv8.jpg

I just realized that some of those links are dead.

I can upload the relevant scans if you'd like, Leonidas.

ohhhhh . . . gotcha. didn't realize you were talking about a future battle. i'd guess that's non-canon and since it wasn't really rachel battling, but the force itself, that also makes it . . . less than ideal as a gauge.

yep. i was close. damn i love alan davis.

btw, the phoenix has protected rachel before. it may be future but its not out of the realm for phoenix to protect it's host like that.

Originally posted by leonidas
ohhhhh . . . gotcha. didn't realize you were talking about a future battle. i'd guess that's non-canon and since it wasn't really rachel battling, but the force itself, that also makes it . . . less than ideal as a gauge.

no need. damn. i've seen that battle before. not sure if i have that book or if i've just read it or seen scans. anywho, thanks.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
btw, the phoenix has protected rachel before. it may be future but its not out of the realm for phoenix to protect it's host like that.

oh i know it can do that, but the vast majority of the time it doesn't. rachel's been ko'd and taken over and gone just plain nuts loads of times. the PF auto-protect is very rare.

given her usual showings, i'm inclined to say ss would win, with a big ole 'rachel is more than capable of winning' attached to the statement.

If the Galactus thing is non-canon then I take back what I said. Quasar beat(or stalemated, I can't remember which) her, Thor beat her, Surfer beats her...

Originally posted by leonidas
oh i know it can do that, but the vast majority of the time it doesn't. rachel's been ko'd and taken over and gone just plain nuts loads of times. the PF auto-protect is very rare.

given her usual showings, i'm inclined to say ss would win, with a big ole 'rachel is more than capable of winning' attached to the statement.

no doubt. rachel when she first had it practically got LUCKY when she was a rookie. she would ACCIDENTLY do things. LOL. a rookie rachel would lose to the majority of top tiers. an experienced rachel at full potential is way above top tier, imo. even the version where she killed Necrom would be too much for Surfer.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If the Galactus thing is non-canon then I take back what I said. Quasar beat her, Thor beat her, Surfer beats her...
Sure. When she was still adjusting to her abilities.



Here's that Galactus fight again, without the two broken links:

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus1.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus2.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus3.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus4.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus5.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus6.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus7.jpg http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x287/Deywos/th_RachelPF_Galactus8.jpg

rachel stomps...

Rachel who beat Necrom and Galactus wins here

The Necrom fight was really cool.

abccoffee

Rachael should take it. Especially now that her character has progressed and matured. She was doing extraordinarily well, with much less then how she was in Excalibur.

what has she done recently? i havent been following xmen.

Recently?
She beat Gladiator in their second fight... then lost the PF.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Recently?
She beat Gladiator in their second fight...
uhuh

Originally posted by darthgoober
If the Galactus thing is non-canon then I take back what I said. Quasar beat(or stalemated, I can't remember which) her, Thor beat her, Surfer beats her...

Originally posted by Enyalus
uhuh
Emperor Vulcan 5. Rachel beats Gladiator. )

Originally posted by darthgoober
If the Galactus thing is non-canon then I take back what I said. Quasar beat(or stalemated, I can't remember which) her, Thor beat her, Surfer beats her...

Uh, why wouldn't it be canon....it happened in the 616 universe.

Also Rachel was being controlled or manipulated when she fought against Thor and Quasar. She has never fought them in her right mind.

If Rachel brings her A-game, then she wins 8/10 times...if not, even fight.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Emperor Vulcan 5. Rachel beats Gladiator. )
I know what fight he was talking about. Rachel didn't actually beat Gladiator. They even mention, "Amazing. Rachel is actually fighting Gladiator to a standstill." Then she flies through him (not literally) to rescue Korvus. The end.

Not really a win. If anything, self-BFR loss.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Recently?
She beat Gladiator in their second fight... then lost the PF.

She never beat him.

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1606/wok05017.th.jpg

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Necrom fight was really cool.

Yes opne of the most impressive fights I have ever seen.

Originally posted by guy222
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/1606/wok05017.th.jpg

hey guy how did Glads get his ass beat there? Looks all messed up.

Here ya go buddy

http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/37a824340bf384f42ef1ae1063a5f88e.jpg http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/3963a4f38a9628889b40ddcdd2c1b42f.jpg http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/0f71e74b1403fc2648880421535f8887.jpg

Originally posted by guy222
Here ya go buddy

http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/37a824340bf384f42ef1ae1063a5f88e.jpg http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/3963a4f38a9628889b40ddcdd2c1b42f.jpg http://i.iimmgg.com/images/th/0f71e74b1403fc2648880421535f8887.jpg

Thanks! clap

The current Rachael, once again acts as the host to the Phoenix Force as seen in Excalibur. Can the Surfer take her down?

surfer dies
PAINFULY

BUMP

id, do you think this is a good matchup? How do you see it going?

Eh Rachel is a match for the G-man himself on a good day.
Rachel ftw.

Did Rachael do something extraordinary? If she is anywhere near her classic level with the PF this is obvious spite.

what has current rachel done? I haven't been keeping up with her.

Besides her attitude adjustment. She applies her psi, with more common sense.

Surfer.

Originally posted by id369
Do I think this is a good match? No I think Rachael trashes Norrin, its obvious her competence has gone up. I cant think anyone in the High Herald class that can overwhelm her.

Ok, cool. Then my second question is this: is this a bait thread? I know that there's usually someone to back Surfer in any scenario even if they're wrong, but if you see it as incredibly lopsided, why make the thread?

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, cool. Then my second question is this: is this a bait thread? I know that there's usually someone to back Surfer in any scenario even if they're wrong, but if you see it as incredibly lopsided, why make the thread?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Surfer.


bluesrug

Originally posted by Creshosk
bluesrug

Granted. But that goes back to my earlier point that people will back Surfer in even more lopsided scenarios. His name carries an absurd amount of weight here on the forums. But that doesn't mean the thread should be made if it's still horribly lopsided.

id tried goad me into backing the Doctor in an earlier thread like this, even when I knew Rachael would win. I'm just trying to prevent that same sort of thing again, since it seems a bit disingenuous to make a lopsided thread then try to bait people into backing a losing argument. If the end goal is information about a character, then that's a good thing. But he snapped at me when I tried to learn more about Rachael instead of arguing, so I don't get that vibe.

If I'm wrong, great. But it needed to be brought up. If it becomes a trend, it's one that needs to stop.

Surfer carries an absurd amount of weight? What about the Phoenix? This is the only comic board I've been to where people think the Phoenix is equal to the LT.

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, cool. Then my second question is this: is this a bait thread? I know that there's usually someone to back Surfer in any scenario even if they're wrong, but if you see it as incredibly lopsided, why make the thread? My views, are not the forums view. I want to know what sets them apart. If said member considers Surfer/Phoenix the victor, exactly what factors do members place stock over, to value its victory.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Surfer carries an absurd amount of weight? What about the Phoenix? This is the only comic board I've been to where people think the Phoenix is equal to the LT.

I never said Phoenix didn't, just that Surfer did. But you're right, they both do.

Adding an avatar (Rachael) to the Phoenix Force always complicates things though, so the backing of it isn't always quite as strong.

Originally posted by id369
My views, are not the forums view. I want to know what sets them apart. If said member considers Surfer/Phoenix the victor, exactly what factors do members place stock over, to value its victory.

Ok, fair enough. So you want to see where your opinions differ, if at all? That's a valid reason for making a thread. But do understand, I have to check these things, especially after feeling like I was being harassed for what was mostly a fact-finding mission in the Phoenix/Doctor thread. But continue as you were. I genuinely hope you get the answers you want.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Surfer.

Based on what?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Surfer carries an absurd amount of weight? What about the Phoenix? This is the only comic board I've been to where people think the Phoenix is equal to the LT. You can blame Morrison for that I think. setting up a kabalistic thing with the crown reference and all that he did.

Rachel defeated Necrom and Galactus

She wins here

Originally posted by id369
Based on what?

I never found Rachel as the Phoenix to be that impressive.

I never found any Phoenix to be that impressive to be honest.

Riiiight...
Because no version of Phoenix took it to big G himself, or trashed Nova, or stalemated Gladiator, or blew up entire universe, right?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I never found Rachel as the Phoenix to be that impressive.

I never found any Phoenix to be that impressive to be honest.

At this point what does the Rachael lack to bring down the Surfer?

I do think that Galactus have the power to beat her, but certainly not Surfer, at least, the last time I read on her.

Did she had a power downgrade since?

If current Phoenix really statlemated Gladiator, Surfer should, in theory, win. If it's only a low showing, and she's really as powerful as usual, than Phoenix.

Originally posted by Survivor19
Riiiight...
Because no version of Phoenix took it to big G himself, or trashed Nova, or stalemated Gladiator, or blew up entire universe, right?
Wasn't the Galactus fight an alternate universe version?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wasn't the Galactus fight an alternate universe version?

He means this one.
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4177/excalibur061p04.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6360/excalibur061p05.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6317/excalibur061p06.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9987/excalibur061p07.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8741/excalibur061p11.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4006/excalibur061p14.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1350/excalibur061p17.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9924/excalibur061p20.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7536/excalibur061p21.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5836/excalibur061p22.jpg

Originally posted by Survivor19
Riiiight...
Because no version of Phoenix took it to big G himself, or trashed Nova, or stalemated Gladiator, or blew up entire universe, right?

Then gets stomped and eaten by the Goblin Force, an EMP, a Shi'ar super weapon.

Yeah, overrated.

Same Goblin Force that has eaten Galactus himself as well?

You could bring here Wolverine killing Phoenix repeatedly as well.
*sigh*
Phoenix host has human durability. If shields are down, anyone and his mother can kill him.
Is that the reason you give Surfer vicory? His silver hide?

Originally posted by id369
At this point what does the Rachael lack to bring down the Surfer?

Originally posted by id369
He means this one.
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4177/excalibur061p04.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/6360/excalibur061p05.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/6317/excalibur061p06.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9987/excalibur061p07.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8741/excalibur061p11.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4006/excalibur061p14.jpg
http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/1350/excalibur061p17.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9924/excalibur061p20.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7536/excalibur061p21.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5836/excalibur061p22.jpg

Galactus is so badass that he pwned her with words.

Still, I'm looking for the scans where Galactus state on panel that he could beat her.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster
Galactus is so badass that he pwned her with words.

Still, I'm looking for the scans where Galactus state on panel that he could beat her.

You mean when Dark Phoenix fought Galactus?
What_If_-_V1_-_027_-_Phoenix_had_not_died.

Incidentally Phoenix goes on to destroy the Universe at the end.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Then gets stomped and eaten by the Goblin Force, an EMP, a Shi'ar super weapon.

Yeah, overrated. Electromagnetic energy isn't harmful to the brain it passes right through it... in fact we stick people in high powers magnets and bombard them with Electromagnetic on a daily basis.

Ever hear of Magnetic resonance imaging?

Yeah, she had phoenix work to do so she had to allow her host to "die".

If you reject the explanation then I can only tell you that the writing was PIS. Since you know MRIs and all.

And likewise with the Shi'ar super weapon. the "host" wanted to die. so it did.

Because that same host ate a star and got in a fight with a shi'ar battlecruiser...

Originally posted by Survivor19
Same Goblin Force that has eaten Galactus himself as well?

Yeah, the same Goblic Force that was defeated by some Celestials.

Stop acting like defeating Galactus is an uber feat. He was recently nearly killed by Beta Ray Bill.



That's a great excuse ecept for one small point, the EMP shattered the Phoenix Force into millions of pieces. What does that have to do with Jeans durability?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Electromagnetic energy isn't harmful to the brain it passes right through it... in fact we stick people in high powers magnets and bombard them with Electromagnetic on a daily basis.

Ever hear of Magnetic resonance imaging?

Yeah, she had phoenix work to do so she had to allow her host to "die".

If you reject the explanation then I can only tell you that the writing was PIS. Since you know MRIs and all.

And likewise with the Shi'ar super weapon. the "host" wanted to die. so it did.

Because that same host ate a star and got in a fight with a shi'ar battlecruiser... Maybe MRIs can also beat the Phoenix force.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Yeah, the same Goblic Force that was defeated by some Celestials.

Stop acting like defeating Galactus is an uber feat. He was recently nearly killed by Beta Ray Bill. That's kinda pathetic for one who can just absorb space, isn't it?


Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
That's a great excuse ecept for one small point, the EMP shattered the Phoenix Force into millions of pieces. What does that have to do with Jeans durability? Which is why it was stupidity for the sake of the plot...

A being that can eat stars was killed by a significantly less amout of a small portion of the type of energy a star produces.?



Yeah that was completely plot driven.

Originally posted by Mindset
Maybe MRIs can also beat the Phoenix force. Well stupid plots can kill any character.

Jean was brought down by Xorneto and his world level EMP. Moments of weakness vary depending on how the Host accesses and uses the Phoenix Force. Rachael is not Jean, you cant simply carry over circumstances disregarding previous showings, or considering the range of factors. Case and point being as of recent match up, where Rachael was tanking the blast of an actual planet buster in the form of stellar energy.

So can we get, back on topic. What does Rachael lack to bring down the Surfer?

Silver surfer stomps ... If we are talking about Rachel who does not have Phoenix Force or is potrayed in the older X-men. With the full Phoenix Force she stomps.

Originally posted by id369
You mean when Dark Phoenix fought Galactus?
What_If_-_V1_-_027_-_Phoenix_had_not_died.

Incidentally Phoenix goes on to destroy the Universe at the end.

What If's aren't canon.

maybe a merging is in order . . .?

merged. use the search in the future before making threads. thank you.

What is canon is that the PF itself, (all hostless ... as in, actual Force)
got blown into billions of pieces by a planetary scale attack.

Was trapped, defeated and nearly killed by freakin alien ship.

Was shattered again into pieces by Shiar tech.

Was stalemated then owned by 6 heroes, one of which was Rogue.
(mind you ... the heroes were tired, the PF was fresh & reborn) literally stated.
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

That's a great excuse ecept for one small point,

the EMP shattered the Phoenix Force into millions of pieces.

What does that have to do with Jeans durability?
... and that's "Billions" of pieces good friend.
Originally posted by Mindset

Maybe MRIs can also beat the Phoenix force.

Phoenix Rachel wins easy

My question is. Considering her past feats with the PF, her recent showings. What can Silver Surfer do, that could not be contested by Rachel if she is back to hosting the Phoenix Force?

Rachel had extremely small portion of the Phoenix Force. I think, if she would want to really hurt Gladiator she would. She did what she wanted. And that very very very small portion of Phoenix Force would be more than enough power to bring Silver Surfer down. It's only matter if she would chose it so.

bump