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Ok, so I was wondering who everyone thought the top 10 duelists of all time were. I have no list myself, and plz give one quote/feat to explain why they are there.



And, im waiting for some Bane/Kas'im fanboy to come along so we can say he is wrong. Oh, and he has to be a true fanboy.



DEATH TO FANBOYS!!! (of some people)

Do you mean in pure skill? Because if we were to gauge skill, then the likes of General Grievous and his MagnaGuards may be considered for placement, given their intimate knowledge of all forms.

Yes it is skill, but in actual practice, give them a lightsaber then tell them to kill that other guy with a lightsaber and see who wins. They had to have weilded a lightsaber in a canon source however. So yes, Grevious is in, but it is not knowledge, but as I said his skill

ICBA to provide a source, at the moment. But this is my list off the top of my head:

Anoon Bondara
Yoda
Mace Windu
Luke Skywalker
Cin Drallig
Count Dooku
Darth Sidious
Sora Bulq
General Grievous
Darth Maul
Kas'im

Darth Revan?
Darth Vader?
Anakin Skywalker?
Obi-Wan Kenobi?
Kit Fisto?
Agen Kolar?
Saessee Tiin?
Jacen Solo?
Kyle Katarn?

So this just means best Saber-wielding combatant.

Which is little different from every other 'BESTEST TEN' thread evar.

Originally posted by Gideon
ICBA to provide a source, at the moment. But this is my list off the top of my head:

Anoon Bondara
Yoda
Mace Windu
Luke Skywalker
Cin Drallig
Count Dooku
Darth Sidious
Sora Bulq
General Grievous
Darth Maul
Kas'im

Darth Revan?
Darth Vader?
Anakin Skywalker?
Obi-Wan Kenobi?
Kit Fisto?
Agen Kolar?
Saessee Tiin?
Jacen Solo?
Kyle Katarn?

Well if you put Cin Drallig in there, Anakin should be definite too. I'd also put Obi-Wan in for sure, with the almost unbreakable defense.

Ignoring the TC's wishes and the purpose of this thread, the very most technically gifted lightsaber practitioners would be (in no particular order):

Exar Kun: creating an entire lightsaber form from scratch within the time span of six months (that was stated to be an improvement over the lightsaber form he had previously trained in).

Ulic Qel-Doma: Fending off an enraged and highly impressive Jedi while physically past his prime, largely out of practise with a lightsaber and after having been cut off from the Force nine years earlier.

Kas'im: Mastering all seven forms of the lightsaber in under a decade (when it's stated in the Fightsaber article that the average time to master one is twenty years) and reaching a level of ability where he was arguably the greatest swordsmen ever decades later.

Nomi Sunrider: Wielding her husband's lightsaber with the skill of a master the very first time she picked one up.

Darth Bane: Being able to memorise every single move and sequence there was to all seven forms of the double bladed lightsaber (numbering in the hundreds of thousands at the very least), and developing the means to counter every single one of them, in a matter of months.

Nobody else has demonstrated an innate ability with a lightsaber to be listed among the above mentioned five.

1. anakin skywalker
2. luke skywalker
3. mace windu
4. kas'im

in no particular order:

exar kun
obi wan kenobi
yoda
kyle katarn

What's the difference between the two lists?

the first four i consider to be the top 4 duelists of all time but there is still a ranking among them of the 4 kas'im is the weakest of the four mace third weakest etc.

the four below that are the second group of top duelists but there is no hierarchy between them. i dont for example consider obi wan to have more skill then yoda.

Well that's dumb. Anakin is on the 'definite' list but Yoda isn't?

Originally posted by ApC
Ignoring the TC's wishes and the purpose of this thread, the very most technically gifted lightsaber practitioners would be (in no particular order):

Exar Kun: creating an entire lightsaber form from scratch within the time span of six months (that was stated to be an improvement over the lightsaber form he had previously trained in).

Ulic Qel-Doma: Fending off an enraged and highly impressive Jedi while physically past his prime, largely out of practise with a lightsaber and after having been cut off from the Force nine years earlier.

Kas'im: Mastering all seven forms of the lightsaber in under a decade (when it's stated in the Fightsaber article that the average time to master one is twenty years) and reaching a level of ability where he was arguably the greatest swordsmen ever decades later.

Nomi Sunrider: Wielding her husband's lightsaber with the skill of a master the very first time she picked one up.

Darth Bane: Being able to memorise every single move and sequence there was to all seven forms of the double bladed lightsaber (numbering in the hundreds of thousands at the very least), and developing the means to counter every single one of them, in a matter of months.

Nobody else has demonstrated an innate ability with a lightsaber to be listed among the above mentioned five.

Bye Nebaris. Loser.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well that's dumb. Anakin is on the 'definite' list but Yoda isn't?

hows that dumb? anakin is the most inherently skilled duelist of the mythos. yoda is only where he is because he had 900 years to hone his abilities. if anakin or luke had half that time they would be literally gods without any peer or competition what so ever. id say the same for mace and kas'im.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
hows that dumb? anakin is the most inherently skilled duelist of the mythos. yoda is only where he is because he had 900 years to hone his abilities. if anakin or luke had half that time they would be literally gods without any peer or competition what so ever. id say the same for mace and kas'im.

This is a bullshit statement that lacks any kind of proof. Anakin and Luke are also the most powerful beings in the SW mythos, whereas Yoda is 2nd or 3rd according to midichlorians. There's nothing suggesting Yoda needed 900 years to get to where he is.

theres nothing to suggest hes been at the same level of dueling ability for eight hundred years either.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theres nothing to suggest hes been at the same level of dueling ability for eight hundred years either.

Dueling who exactly? Of course there's enough to suggest just that. Seeing as how there wasn't a major saber related conflict since the Dark Jedi Conflict, and that he spent his time teaching lightsaber training to young kids, you'd be wrong.

that would actually support my statement.

id say he would be a better duelist at 800 then at 900 as he would have spent 100 years sparring and meditating and refining his skills. conflict and necessity isnt the only way to better yourself. its just the quickest.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that would actually support my statement.

id say he would be a better duelist at 800 then at 900 as he would have spent 100 years sparring and meditating and refining his skills. conflict and necessity isnt the only way to better yourself. its just the quickest.

It doesn't support your statement at all. It actually hurts your statement. You said there's no way Yoda would have been as good as he is had it not been for his 800 years. I'm saying that after the Dark Jedi Conflict, it's unlikely that he did anything but occasionally spar.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It doesn't support your statement at all. It actually hurts your statement. You said there's no way Yoda would have been as good as he is had it not been for his 800 years. I'm saying that after the Dark Jedi Conflict, it's unlikely that he did anything but occasionally spar.

and all im saying is that experience stacks with time thus it makes sense that someones skills would only improve with time unless they sit on their arse and not work on those skills at all.

so are you trying to imply that yoda sat on his ass for 800 years and didnt work on his skills until the clone wars?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
and all im saying is that experience stacks with time thus it makes sense that someones skills would only improve with time unless they sit on their arse and not work on those skills at all.

so are you trying to imply that yoda sat on his ass for 800 years and didnt work on his skills until the clone wars?

Nope, but you're implying he's been training consistently for 800 years, which begs proof. You're also implying it's only because of his age and experience that he's that good, which begs for more proof.

how does that beg for proof moreso then him not doing anything for 800 years? what im saying is logical whereas what youre saying isnt. it seems to me that youre arguing with me simply for the sake of being contrary or a devils advocate. do you personally genuinely believe that the man sat there for 800 years and didnt bother to work on honing his skills?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nope, but you're implying he's been training consistently for 800 years, which begs proof. You're also implying it's only because of his age and experience that he's that good, which begs for more proof. Which is no different than you saying that all he may have done is "occasionally spar" which would also require proof. To assume that he did nothing to improve both his saber skills and force prowess is ridiculous.

thank you.

To assume he's only as good as he is because of his age is even dumber.

its dumb to assume that you get more experienced and wiser and more refined with time?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
no its not. its logical.

It's absolutely illogical. The jedi with the 2nd highest midichlorian count in recorded history is only as good because of his age? That's absolutely hilarious. I believe i've made my point.

youre point doesnt make any sense.

its logical to assume that he is at the leel that he is at because of the years hes had to improve upon himself and become wiser and more experienced.

and you havent actually provided any support to your logic. essentially this is your statement.

"yoda being as good as he is because of the years of training hes had is dumb. just because."

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
youre point doesnt make any sense.

its logical to assume that he is at the leel that he is at because of the years hes had to improve upon himself and become wiser and more experienced.

No, you said he's at that level ONLY because he's 800-900 years old, which is retarded(shut up RH)as hell.

why?

are you saying people dont improve with time?

Put it like this.... if you're practicing free throws for basketball, do you think you'd get better after 40 or 50 times shooting it, or around 900 times shooting it? The more you practice, the better you get. Period. For it to be mentioned that Dooku has "decades" of experience as a reason why he is as good as he is, then it would certainly be logical to mention the centuries of experience that Yoda has. Why are you so opposed to that rationale?

He's not a prodigy like Anakin. He had to work at and hone his skills... and he happens to have had longer to do so given his specie's life expectancy.

it seems... it seems like such an easy concept to understand.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
it seems... it seems like such an easy concept to understand.
ROFLROFLROFL. So wait, Anakin is a prodigy, Yoda is a prodigy, Mace is a prodigy, but Yoda..ISNT? Wow that made my day. I can see why the smart people don't come to KMC on saturday. Absolutely hilarious.

wow.

Yea Marvel, your level of logic is borderline...Insane.. But it's definitely funny.

whatever dude. im going to go ahead and leave you to your... logic.

Thanks, I appreciate it after your 20 second responses. I'll just leave everyone who reads this thread with this, for a good laugh for labor day weekend:

I can see what you mean completely. I said he wasn't a prodigy like Anakin, which he wasn't. Anakin being the chosen one, was set to be the most powerful Jedi ever and he was only, what, 23? Turned all of Dooku's knowledge and skill into a joke, and could conceivably contend with ANYONE in pure saber combat. He was a fraction of Yoda's age and on his level with a saber. He was simply prodigious.

Too much is still unknown about Yoda so we don't know his beginnings. However, if you would like to prove that he was a prodigy of Anakin's caliber, then please do so.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I can see what you mean completely. I said he wasn't a prodigy like Anakin, which he wasn't. Anakin being the chosen one, was set to be the most powerful Jedi ever and he was only, what, 23? Turned all of Dooku's knowledge and skill into a joke, and could conceivably contend with ANYONE in pure saber combat. He was a fraction of Yoda's age and on his level with a saber. He was simply prodigious.

Too much is still unknown about Yoda so we don't know his beginnings. However, if you would like to prove that he was a prodigy of Anakin's caliber, then please do so.

Nobody is Anakin, nobody is Luke. By that logic, Dooku isn't a prodigy either. Neither is Bane, Mace, or anyone else for that matter, just Anakin. Seeing as how Yoda had the 2nd highest recorded midichlorian count in history, and was the most powerful Jedi of all time until Luke came along, the idea of him not being a prodigy is ludicrous.

In no particular order...

Yoda (He's F*ckin Yoda, nuff said)

Obi-Wan (Master of Soresu)

Darth Revan ( No feats, but it was stated he was the best swordsmen in his era, and looking at him was like staring into the heart of the Force)

Luke Skywalker( He's Luke Skywalker, nuff said. Also, he and Jacen's fight was widely hailed as the most intense, fastest saber duel ever. He also beat Lumiya.)

Jacen Solo/Darth Sidious ( Same as above)

Kas'im ( He was already fleshed out in an earlier post)

Darth Bane

Darth Sidious

Kyle Katarn( No idea why)

Mace Windu (Sam Jackson is kick ass)

As for Yoda, simply being the Grand Master of the order for as long as he was is enough. Plus he's the only one brave enough, and skilled enough to actually use Trakata in combat.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Nobody is Anakin, nobody is Luke. By that logic, Dooku isn't a prodigy either. Neither is Bane, Mace, or anyone else for that matter, just Anakin. Seeing as how Yoda had the 2nd highest recorded midichlorian count in history, and was the most powerful Jedi of all time until Luke came along, the idea of him not being a prodigy is ludicrous. Ok, and the notion of 900 years not aiding in his ability to be as good as he is, is also ludicrous. That's all I'm saying.

I understand where DS is coming from: the implication from Obi-Wan's dialogue in the Phantom Menace is that Yoda possessed the highest midichlorian count out of, at least, all Jedi alive prior to the discovery of Anakin. Count Dooku and Mace Windu all demonstrate prodigious skill and excellence at relatively young ages, earning distinctions amongst their fellow Jedi for their skill; Darth Maul, similarly, seems to be a prodigy, being "a high end master of multiple forms" despite an incredibly young age.

While none of these characters are prodigious "like Anakin," it would be foolish to contend that they aren't prodigies. But Subjekt also has a point: Yoda's many centuries as a Jedi undoubtably honed his already prodigious skill.

Originally posted by Gideon
I understand where DS is coming from: the implication from Obi-Wan's dialogue in the Phantom Menace is that Yoda possessed the highest midichlorian count out of, at least, all Jedi alive prior to the discovery of Anakin. Count Dooku and Mace Windu all demonstrate prodigious skill and excellence at relatively young ages, earning distinctions amongst their fellow Jedi for their skill; Darth Maul, similarly, seems to be a prodigy, being "a high end master of multiple forms" despite an incredibly young age.

While none of these characters are prodigious "like Anakin," it would be foolish to contend that they aren't prodigies. But Subjekt also has a point: Yoda's many centuries as a Jedi undoubtably honed his already prodigious skill.

THank you. Once again, to say that Yoda is only good because he's 800 years old is like saying Gideon is a good debater because he spends 15 hours a day on these forums.

He's not good because he's 800, he's good because he's been constantly training for those 800 years.

If you've got a swordsman who practices 8 hours a day for 5 years, against a swordsman who does the same thing for 800, whose going to be the better fighter?

Originally posted by KingD19
He's not good because he's 800, he's good because he's been constantly training for those 800 years.

If you've got a swordsman who practices 8 hours a day for 5 years, against a swordsman who does the same thing for 800, whose going to be the better fighter?
There's nothing suggesting he practices 8 hours a day for 5 years. In fact if you believe he's been in constant practice for those 800 years, it's your job to prove it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
THank you. Once again, to say that Yoda is only good because he's 800 years old is like saying Gideon is only a good debater because he spends 15 hours a day on these forums.

You missed out the second 'only' there you perpetual man s!ut.

Force power doesn't equal Lightsaber skill.


Yoda is exceptionally skilled becuase he's had 800 years of experience. I think everyone will agree that living with 'warrior monk' Jedi for 800 years will grant a person a a certain degree of skill and insight into combat. Yoda is powerful becuase he has a high medi-count and has had 800 years of practice (which is essential to developing power). And as we all know, force power is a real benefit in lightsaber combat. We also know that being powerful or having potential doesn't always make one a prodigy, via Leia.

Beefy, you're wrong. There is absolutely nothing to suggest Yoda's a prodigy. He may be adept, or above average but nothing suggests he's intrinsically amazing. The benefits of having 800 years of practice are apparent though. Give Johun Othone 800 years and he'd be hanging with the big boys too. Therefore we can conclude that Yoda gets his power and skill through his experience, but we cannot conclude that its natural ability.

Actually soon to be banned troll, the second only is unnecessary. Learn English.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force power doesn't equal Lightsaber skill.
Nobody said it did, but it increases the learning curve.



How about the fact that Yoda is skilled because he's a prodigy, not because he's 800 years old. Nobody is saying that didn't help but there's nothing suggesting he studied lightsaber combat constantly for 800 years. That's like saying that if Yoda was 80, Dooku, Anakin, and Mace would beat him.


Actually I'm right. EVERYTHING suggests Yoda is a prodigy. There's absolutely nothing suggesting otherwise. Give Johun 800 years and maybe he'll be able to compete with Maul.

Implying that if anyone studies 800 years, they can be on Yoda's level is where your argument fails completely.

i think it would be easier to gauge ydoas power if we knew more of his exploits from his younger days. because we saw the extent of anakin's power when he was a novice, and then saw his power after four years of growth, we can accurately conclude his learning ability and skill. the same is not true for yoda however as we only know how strong he is int he last few decades of his life.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That's like saying that if Yoda was 80, Dooku, Anakin, and Mace would beat him.

what makes you think otherwise out of curiosity?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Force power doesn't equal Lightsaber skill.


Yoda is exceptionally skilled becuase he's had 800 years of experience. I think everyone will agree that living with 'warrior monk' Jedi for 800 years will grant a person a a certain degree of skill and insight into combat. Yoda is powerful becuase he has a high medi-count and has had 800 years of practice (which is essential to developing power). And as we all know, force power is a real benefit in lightsaber combat. We also know that being powerful or having potential doesn't always make one a prodigy, via Leia.

Beefy, you're wrong. There is absolutely nothing to suggest Yoda's a prodigy. He may be adept, or above average but nothing suggests he's intrinsically amazing. The benefits of having 800 years of practice are apparent though. Give Johun Othone 800 years and he'd be hanging with the big boys too. Therefore we can conclude that Yoda gets his power and skill through his experience, but we cannot conclude that its natural ability.

Conceded.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
what makes you think otherwise out of curiosity?

His force potential made him a prodigy. The other prodigies also have significant force potential, yet Yoda is the exception to the rule? And Odan Urr was over 1,000 years old, and he didn't show a damn thing. Guess that destroys Exodus' argument rofl.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His force potential made him a prodigy.

how does that alone make you a prodigy? having a strong connection to the force doesnt help you understand the mechanics of a lightsaber or the strategies involved in fighting or any of those things... all the force can do is heighten your reflexes and general awareness...

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
how does that alone make you a prodigy? having a strong connection to the force doesnt help you understand the mechanics of a lightsaber or the strategies involved in fighting or any of those things... all the force can do is heighten your reflexes and general awareness...

Bane. Prodigy. Strong connection to the force. Sidious. Prodigy. Strong Connection to the force. Jacen Solo. Prodigy. Strong Connection to the force. Luke. Prodigy. Strong connection to the force. I rest my case.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
rofl.

We've talked about this. Know your physical limitations and stick to the 'lol'ing.

Dr McBeefington
Bane. Prodigy. Strong connection to the force. Sidious. Prodigy. Strong Connection to the force. Jacen Solo. Prodigy. Strong Connection to the force. Luke. Prodigy. Strong connection to the force. I rest my case.

Those are correlations, not evidence.

Originally posted by Gideon
Those are correlations, not evidence.

Yes, everyone one of them with the same characteristics, yet it's a correlation. I guess Yoda is the exception!

Originally posted by Gideon
Those are correlations, not evidence.

P-W-N-E-D

Dr McBeefington
Yes, everyone one of them with the same characteristics, yet it's a correlation. I guess Yoda is the exception!

I'll leave this to Nemesis, since this seems to be something he enjoys.

Originally posted by Gideon
Those are correlations, not evidence.

nicely put.

Gideon, ++


My 10:

no specific order: Most deadly with sabersforce aided or what-not)

Sidious,
Yoda,
Mace,
Luke,
Obi-Wan Kenobi,
Dooku
Caedus
Anakin Skywalker
Bane
Kas'sim


Possibly:

Revan, Jedi Exile, Marka Ragnos,

Just barely missed the cut:

Maul
Grievous


I may be forgetting some names.

I'm loathe to put Obi-Wan in the definite top ten. He's never really regarded for his skills outside of his prominence in negotiation and tactical skills.

He's always considered an above average Jedi, nothing more or less.

see, the ROTS novelization is completely inconsistent with the rest of the sources we have on kenobi.

Using that source alone, he is a great duelist. He defeats Grievous with ease, because the council decided HE would be the one most capable of doing so. (Mace quote) He dominates a fight with Sith Anakin,(according to the novel, not such an easy win on-screen.) and wins in the end.

The other sources do put him in a much more average light, its true. Though he handles ventress with pitiful ease (not THAT great an accomplishment, admittedly) in the Clone Wars.

I'm not sure who i would put above him though. I couldn't put grievous after he lost the head to head, perhaps Maul, but Maul has fewer impressive wins than Kenobi does.

Its just ROTS seems a bit out of whack with the rest of the universe.

To be fair, the novelization makes it perfectly clear that Obi-Wan was essentially being buttfvcked by the Force in all his engagements with Grievous; there is even one standout line that says something like how Grievous's Magnaguards were "far beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat" but that the Force was using him as a vessel and someshit.

Kudos to Matthew Stover for trying to rationalize Grievous's vacation in the little western town of Suckville, USA.

thats very true. But according to this thread, it included their ability to use the force to aid in saber battles, so i figured he needed to be included. He consistently uses the force to become a stronger combatant than he should be capable of.

No, I said that they could not have the force, this is just raw skill......

but then Grievous is >>> than all? I thought you specifically answered that question to the contrary? Jedi use the force to fight with sabers. Without it, they are all behind Grievous or even Boba fett for that matter.

Good God you guys! 4 pages in as many hours? WTF!?!?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
ROFLROFLROFL. So wait, Anakin is a prodigy, Yoda is a prodigy, Mace is a prodigy, but Yoda..ISNT? Wow that made my day. I can see why the smart people don't come to KMC on saturday. Absolutely hilarious.

FAIL. You realize that you are also on KMC on a Saturday?Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thanks, I appreciate it after your 20 second responses. I'll just leave everyone who reads this thread with this, for a good laugh for labor day weekend:
What is with you and response time?

You have fast responses sometimes. All it means is that they clicked the refresh button?Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ok, and the notion of 900 years not aiding in his ability to be as good as he is, is also ludicrous. That's all I'm saying.






DS:
You seem to be mistaking a factor of Yoda's skill for the determinant of Yoda's skill. No one is saying that it is irrelevant. It has to be noted, however, that having 800 years would help one master any skill. This cannot be disputed. The midichlorians would put a ceiling on just how good he could get, as well as a floor for his beginning level, but the actualization of that potential is due to the time taken in practice.

See: Leia Skywalker

Beef - I don't know about Marvel, but i never said, or meant to insinuate that Yoda was not a prodigy. My entire point was that despite whatever natural skill he already has, his training for over an 800 period made him as good as he is. Like Gideon said, Dooku was a prodigy and was merely a "joke" to Anakin once he came into his own. You have said that all Yoda had done for 800 years was occasionally spar... do you care to prove that? When dealing with someone with a work ethic, or just ethics in general, like Yoda, why would you assume that he wasn't always trying to to better himself over his many years? You've yet to answer that.

EDIT: RN, what I got out of his posts was that his centuries of training had nothing to do with his level of skill, when it did. He had the same midi count at 200 that he did at 700, the difference is the 500 years of practice inbetween. That was my entire point. And the comparison to Anakin was to point out that after 23 years, he was on the top tier of saber skills right along with, if not above, Yoda himself. Not trying to be a dick, but does that make sense the way I'm saying it?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Beef - do you care to prove that?

he doesn't do proof

Beginning to notice. He's quite the sidestepped.

If this was his point then you've destroyed it.

If it wasn't (and I sincerely hope that it was not) then the issue was merely on emphasis. That is a topic open to discussion, rather than debate. Discussion is less confrontational.

If this is to be a debate then you will win, as the idea that practice is insignificant is laughable.

That's just the way I took it. I was discussing rather than debating or arguing. Still feeling out the old stomping grounds.

This is all interesting. I guess I have the same view as DS on this though.

I vaguely recall some fangirl making an argument for Kyle Katarn this one time... it wasn't very good from what I remember though.

We don't have enough proof of this to have a view on it. All you're doing is making assumptions.

You don't know if, Yoda was already unstoppable at his thirties and didn't get better over the years or if he kept getting better until RotS.

I've never even remotely implied Yoda's age had nothing to do with his skill. I dont expect TJ to know how to read but subjekt and RH come on. It was also a response to Marvel who said he had skill ONLY because of his skill. And don't pay any attention to Tj, he is just mad he got his ass kicked.

Do I need to push you off a building?Well said.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I've never even remotely implied Yoda's age had nothing to do with his skill. I don't expect TJ to know how to read but subjekt and RH come on. It was also a response to Marvel who said he had skill ONLY because of his skill. And don't pay any attention to Tj, he is just mad he got his ass kicked. Then I mistook your position. I don't want to say its due only to his age, but that his age certainly had a profound affect on his abilities. Fair enough?

Originally posted by Eminence


Do I need to push you off a building?
no?

por que?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
DS:
You seem to be mistaking a factor of Yoda's skill for the determinant of Yoda's skill. No one is saying that it is irrelevant. It has to be noted, however, that having 800 years would help one master any skill. This cannot be disputed. The midichlorians would put a ceiling on just how good he could get, as well as a floor for his beginning level, but the actualization of that potential is due to the time taken in practice.
I never said it wasn't a factor, at ALL. I don't know why you guys keep reading so much into it. But to say that Anakin, Dooku, Maul, etc were prodigies but the most powerful Jedi Master before Luke/having the 2nd highest midichlorian count ISN'T is a little ridiculous don't you think?

I can live with that.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I never said it wasn't a factor, at ALL. I don't know why you guys keep reading so much into it. But to say that Anakin, Dooku, Maul, etc were prodigies but the most powerful Jedi Master before Luke/having the 2nd highest midichlorian count ISN'T is a little ridiculous don't you think? Unfortunately, I never said that either. I think we just got our wires crossed.

At least you didn't get your tubes tied.

not since i was younger... wait... what?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I've never even remotely implied Yoda's age had nothing to do with his skill. I dont expect TJ to know how to read but subjekt and RH come on. It was also a response to Marvel who said he had skill ONLY because of his skill. And don't pay any attention to Tj, he is just mad he got his ass kicked.

thats... not what I said.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
and all im saying is that experience stacks with time thus it makes sense that someones skills would only improve with time unless they sit on their arse and not work on those skills at all.

Top 10 in no real order, not including unknowns

Luke
Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Dooku
Obi Wan
Bane
Kas'im
Anakin
Caedus

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats... not what I said.





Actually, what you said was this:


Owned

how does that translate to:



?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
how does that translate to:



?

Are you serious? Must I teach you English?



I italicized "only".

yeah... all that means is hundreds of years of refinement has made him at the level that he is. that doesnt mean he isnt skilled.

:::sigh::: Once again. Here is the last thing you said

Claiming that's what you originally stated. Here's what you originally stated:

That implies Yoda is ONLY where he is because of age. Please don't deny saying something you obviously said. IT insults my intelligence, especially when it's right there in front of me.

yoda IS where he is because of his age. but that does NOT mean he isnt inherently skilled regardless.

Yoda probably reached his peak in terms of raw power quite a while ago.

I have a Q: Is Yoda from the OT as powerful as PT yoda?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
yoda IS where he is because of his age. but that does NOT mean he isnt inherently skilled regardless.

Oh jesus. I give up. Reading Comprehension for dummies.

because you are going to tell me the intentions of my own posts...

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
because you are going to tell me the intentions of my own posts...

Yes, because I showed you your contradictions and you still didn't get it.

or perhaps youre just seeing contradictions that dont exist.

Right. You're done.

'kay.

another example of DS not being as clear as he thinks he is, I presume? Did he start declaring victory in this one as well, in order to avoid answering someone elses point?

Careful Beefy, you are turning part Gideon without having any of the knowledge to back it up.

crylaugh

Originally posted by truejedi
another example of DS not being as clear as he thinks he is, I presume? Did he start declaring victory in this one as well, in order to avoid answering someone elses point?

Careful Beefy, you are turning part Gideon without having any of the knowledge to back it up.

Actually like Gideon, I turned your argument into nothing while you let others carry you. And don't pretend like I'm on ignore.

"THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE ON KORRIBAN!!!"

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel


Kinda sad when someone doesn't understand what their own text means.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel


He just can't stop talking to you, can he.

Yup. Gotta point out stupidity.

and i seem to be doing a great job at that...

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
and i seem to be doing a great job at that...

Definitely. By agreeing with me and contradicting yourself, you're helping me. I don't know why but thank you

i understand that comprehension is one of your weaknesses. im here to help. now we just need to start working on that egomania.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i understand that comprehension is one of your weaknesses. im here to help. now we just need to start working on that egomania.

And projection seems to be yours. Now if you're not intelligent enough to comprehend your own contradictions then I can't help you can I? It's just getting sad. And then repeating me TJ style is also hurting you. I sympathize with you

if all you can do is sputter insults then our conversation is finished.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
if all you can do is sputter insults then our conversation is finished.

Well no. The insults came after catching your contradictions and watching you make a fool out of yourself

I would say not any of the Jedi, cuz on the 1st page of this thread, it said

Yoda or any other jedi wouldn't just kill someone. So My list would be (in no particular order):

Darth Maul
Sids
Grevious
Vader
Caedus

That's such an incredibly stupid argument, I'm not even sure if you're being serious or not. Do you really believe that no Jedi has killed anyone in combat? You're just playing with semantics. You should know full well the point of the thread.

Darth Bane
Anoon Bondara
Sora Bulq
Count Dooku
Cin Drallig
Kas'im
Exar Kun
Darth Maul
Palpatine
Luke Skywalker
Mace Windu
Yoda

Honorable mentions: General Grievous, Kit Fisto, Kyle Katarn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Agen Kolar, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Revan, Anakin Skywalker, Jacen Solo.

Some of these, for the record, may deserve a spot in the top, but I'd like to see further substantiation of their actual skill.

Well you personally have substantiated many times the skill of Anakin as the premier duelist in the PT, saying that he would be capable of defeating the likes of Yoda and Sidious in pure saber combat. What's changed (asking seriously - not as a smartass)?

Originally posted by Gideon
Darth Bane
Anoon Bondara
Sora Bulq
Count Dooku
Cin Drallig
Kas'im
Exar Kun
Darth Maul
Palpatine
Luke Skywalker
Mace Windu
Yoda

Honorable mentions: General Grievous, Kit Fisto, Kyle Katarn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Agen Kolar, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Revan, Anakin Skywalker, Jacen Solo.

Some of these, for the record, may deserve a spot in the top, but I'd like to see further substantiation of their actual skill.

Yeah, and I said:

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Well if you put Cin Drallig in there, Anakin should be definite too.

Aayla Secura.

wtf wat?

well not wtf, but she hasn't really shown much skill in anything. And I haven't heard of any books with her in it, (besides the encyclopedia ones) and Episode 2 novel. Books that she does appear in don't mention her at length. I'm sure she was in the comics, though, but since I haven't read any of them, idk what to say.

But the only thing I know about her came from Star Wars Battlefront II campaign. (which isn't cannon right?) Anyways the story is played from the pov of the 501st, and they complimented her on how she was their leader, and if it wasn't for her encouraging them on Felucia, they would be dead.

But that doesn't say much about her skill. so yeah. w/e.


I think... maybe the one who was a lightsaber expert who dueled against Darth Bane in ROT. The one who weilded 2 lightsabers? and couldn't defend herself in the force for shit. lol

And my other nomination is kas'im. This is because he has mastered the double bladed lightsaber, as well as wielding 2 sabers at once, a so called "incomplete form," and used it to pwn Bane. (but it could be argued that bane didn't have knowledge of it at all, which suprised him etc)


yeah. just two for me.

I think having a list of 10 defeats the point of choosing the best duelist.


edit: sry this was in response the the secura post.

and I just noticed that it wasn't posted, so it might have come out alot later.. so yeah.

Rasktsa was the one Bane fought.

@kotorfan

I think that it was a joke...

Top 5:

Luke
Sidious (DE)
Yoda
Mace
...Bane?

Is it saber skills alone? cuz some(actually most) ppl in Star Wars need the force to have saber skills... except Grevious.

I like your list. But I would put Bane above Mace. just imo.

btw, are there any new books besides Omen? I haven't really been up to date with all the school stuff I have.

abyss. Excellent book.

Abyss really is excellent. Troy Denning knows how to write a multi-faceted (and cunning!) Luke Skywalker.

not just luke though, it was over-all, really good, which is something we miss in most star wars. It is usually all plot, with an absolute lack of skilled writing. Denning actually pulled me into parts of the story that always bored me before: Jag-Jaina, Jacen's daughter, Han and Leia moments.

Ben's girlyness. It was all interesting this time.

truejedi
not just luke though, it was over-all, really good, which is something we miss in most star wars. It is usually all plot, with an absolute lack of skilled writing. Denning actually pulled me into parts of the story that always bored me before: Jag-Jaina, Jacen's daughter, Han and Leia moments.

Ben's girlyness. It was all interesting this time.

NO ONE CARES! GO READ YOUR Suggested READINGS on SW,R!

lol, yes, it is time to return to that place.

Too many avatar changes of late.

Seconded.

Everything was fine the way it was because that is the way everything always should be.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Too many avatar changes of late.

at least mine is still Thrawn. Yours went from like, happy mario to evil emo man.

Originally posted by truejedi
at least mine is still Thrawn. Yours went from like, happy mario to evil emo man. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but this crowbar will smoosh your brain.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Too many avatar changes of late. I've been meaning to change mine for over a year, I just remembered how.

Originally posted by Gideon
Abyss really is excellent. Troy Denning knows how to write a multi-faceted (and cunning!) Luke Skywalker.

Really? I thought you said that it messes up Luke!

But yeah, Abyss is really good. Probably my favorite Star Wars book.

I REALLY can't wait for Backlash to come out.

No, I said a weak Luke. As in a frail one. His characterization is spot on, though.

Originally posted by Gideon
Darth Bane
Anoon Bondara
Sora Bulq
Count Dooku
Cin Drallig
Kas'im
Exar Kun
Darth Maul
Palpatine
Luke Skywalker
Mace Windu
Yoda

Honorable mentions: General Grievous, Kit Fisto, Kyle Katarn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Agen Kolar, Ulic Qel-Droma, Darth Revan, Anakin Skywalker, Jacen Solo.

Some of these, for the record, may deserve a spot in the top, but I'd like to see further substantiation of their actual skill.

Would you care to explain how Sora, Cin, and Anoon have more substantiation of their skill then Anakin, Grievous, Obi-Wan & Jacen?

Because Sora, Anoon, and Cin have accolades comparing them to their peers. Anakin, Jacen, and Obi-Wan? Not so much.

Gideon, when you compiled your list did you take into consideration that Dooku iirc owned Sora Bulq in a saber duel in the clone wars comics?

Or that Anakin by ROTS is also above Dooku? Also Obi Wan as a padawan was at least able to match Maul.

Which would make Obi Wan likely above Cin and Anoon. Anakin was also able to kill Cin in a lightsaber duel which would also put him above the battlemaster.

Ah the ABC arguments resurface.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Ah the ABC arguments resurface.

Ummm Buddy.. guess what that is the best evidence for somebody skill with a light saber is combat situations and who they fought... Ooo wait I assume you prefer hyperbole....

As Allankies points out... I much rather look at combat feats then hyperbolic crap.

Allankles
Gideon, when you compiled your list did you take into consideration that Dooku iirc owned Sora Bulq in a saber duel in the clone wars comics?

No, I did not.

But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I?



The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form.



If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of " then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close.



Cin and Anoon were dueling experts and lightsaber instructors. Obi-Wan... was not. One assumes that they held their station through merit and skill, not fiat or raffle. No one is arguing their command of the Force or their overall ability as combatants, but as swordsmen? They're clearly elite.



As a combatant, not necessarily as a swordsmen. They are two different things.



That line of thought means that, since Mace Windu defeated Sidious in combat, he would in turn defeat Yoda, whom Sidious drove to retreat.

He wouldn't.

ABC arguments are utterly fallible and hardly reliable. This is a discussion of skill, asserting that Obi-Wan is above "X" just because he beat "Y" is not a valid argument.



Allankles didn't point out anything with merit and allow me to be the first to assure you that no one really cares what you look for.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Ummm Buddy.. guess what that is the best evidence for somebody skill with a light saber is combat situations and who they fought... Ooo wait I assume you prefer hyperbole....

As Allankies points out... I much rather look at combat feats then hyperbolic crap.

Oh right...The whole feat war game. That's always fun..

Gideon.

How does Anakin beating an opponent without any PIS, in a lightsaber duel, against Cin Drallig, make Cin Drallig still the better saber duelist? Just because Anakin has more natural skill and less learned skill doesn't mean he is not good saber duelist right?

Tell me then, what is the difference between a combatant and a swordsman?

A combatant is allowed to use the Force to become uber.

A swordsman is simply excellent. Hence:


But not Galen Marek.

But doesn't every saber duelist use the Force to its fullest?

Or else Master Kavar and some Echani or Mandalorian swordsmaster is actually a better duelist than Anakin Skywalker.

EDIT: So actually one saber duelist shouldn't be able to beat the other in a saber only fight, just have more experience and skill?

I'm not sure what 'saber only fight' actually means. If we mean- fighting in a room with ysalmari (or whatever) then it is pure technical skill. If we go with 'no offensive FP but precog still in effect' then that is another thing entirely.

The term is useless and a bit silly- it is entirely speculation in the first case, and superfluous in the second. (Sure Kas'im could beat Marek, but that doesn't tell us anything.)


From now on I refuse to use that system.

All out is all that I'll discuss, or battles w/o Force awareness at all (taking place in the aforementioned room).

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm not sure what 'saber only fight' actually means. If we mean- fighting in a room with ysalmari (or whatever) then it is pure technical skill. If we go with 'no offensive FP but precog still in effect' then that is another thing entirely.

The term is useless and a bit silly- it is entirely speculation in the first case, and superfluous in the second. (Sure Kas'im could beat Marek, but that doesn't tell us anything.)


From now on I refuse to use that system.

All out is all that I'll discuss, or battles w/o Force awareness at all (taking place in the aforementioned room).

lol, i've heard this before. Maybe not from you, but it has been submitted several times. Janus made an entire thread devoted to the concept of killing the 3 areas system one time. I generally specify not to do the 3 areas of combat at all, myself.

I think when most people use "sabers only" they mean that person's skills with a saber and the aide of the force to enhance reflexes and awareness, just no force attacks or Shields. At least I do. Through the force, Anoon was able to become the technical "best," but that doesn't translate to the best combatant. Same with Cin. He was a technical saber god (a bt exaggerated), but when everything is thrown in the mix, he couldn't contend with Anakin, even with the help of his padawan and whoever else was in the temple.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, I did not.

But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I?



The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form.



If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of " then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close.



Cin and Anoon were dueling experts and lightsaber instructors. Obi-Wan... was not. One assumes that they held their station through merit and skill, not fiat or raffle. No one is arguing their command of the Force or their overall ability as combatants, but as swordsmen? They're clearly elite.



As a combatant, not necessarily as a swordsmen. They are two different things.



That line of thought means that, since Mace Windu defeated Sidious in combat, he would in turn defeat Yoda, whom Sidious drove to retreat.

He wouldn't.

ABC arguments are utterly fallible and hardly reliable. This is a discussion of skill, asserting that Obi-Wan is above "X" just because he beat "Y" is not a valid argument.



Allankles didn't point out anything with merit and allow me to be the first to assure you that no one really cares what you look for.

You make me laugh with your pretensious arrogant tone Gideon but I would be more then happy to engage. Now lets examine what you said...
Allankles
Gideon, when you compiled your list did you take into consideration that Dooku iirc owned Sora Bulq in a saber duel in the clone wars comics?


"No, I did not.

But since Dooku incapacitated him via Force lightning, why should I? "

So, Bora was owning Dooku in the saber duel and Dooku had to resort to force lighting? False that isn't how it occurred in the least. Bora didn't have Dooku on the ropes or right about to beat him.. That never happened. Dooku was doing just fine with or without the force attack. Thanks

quote:
Allankles
Or that Anakin by ROTS is also above Dooku?


"The power of Anakin's rage turned him into a machine against which Dooku could not defend; no one -- not even the novelization -- suggests that Anakin's skill was greater than Dooku's eight decades as the undisputed master of the quintessential dueling form."

Now this is the best you could do? So, your trying to use a Red Herring argument are we Gideon? You can call it rage, skill, luck or whatever you choose. The fact remains and is undisputable... That without any force attacks and in a strictly saber duel... Anakin WTF PWNED Dooku. Period and end of discussion. You trying to say it was rage and not skill is hilarious and comical. No, Anakin was better and proved it that day. Thanks come again.

quote:
Allankles
Also Obi Wan as a padawan was at least able to match Maul.


"If by "match," you mean "managed to avoid dying at the hands of " then I would agree. But otherwise? No, he wasn't even close. "
Again, using more fallacies are we? No he didn't mean managed to avoid dying.. That stupid sentence could be said about any duel in the history of the star wars universe. Man its very very easy to make you look silly. That is like saying... Obi Wan managed to avoid dying at the hands of Anakin. Sid or Yoda managed to not die at the hands of the other. Any duel could have that same stupid sentence repeated cause guess what, they all managed to survive. However, again what we have is a direct battle in which Obi-Wan KILLED Maul in combat including saber dueling. Period.
"ABC arguments are utterly fallible and hardly reliable. This is a discussion of skill, asserting that Obi-Wan is above "X" just because he beat "Y" is not a valid argument"
You see this is where your totally wrong... ABC as proof don't work. However, direct duels and combat situations and victories over opponents certainly tell us who is better. You placed people above others they got wtfpwned by. Do, you see how illogical that is. Nobody is using ABC arguments to prove anything. However, what we are doing is calling your on your preference for hyperbole instead of the best proof in the books which is actually saber duels against each other. Get the huge difference kid? .

In conclusion, it seems you prefer hyperbole instead of actual combat feats. You say ooo well Cin and Anoon were saber instructors so they MUST MUST be above Obi-Wan haha lol. Even though Obi-wan in ACTUAL life or death combat duels defeated Maul and Anakin. So, please Gideon list for me the people Cin and Anoon defeated in saber combat and I want to see if it stacks up to Obi-Wan. Now, by no means do I think Obi is the best, not even close, but certainly better then Cin and Anoon in saber duels as he has the track record and victories to back it up. Cin and Anoon are none to be good instructors in controlled environments. Thanks for playing.