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This was kind of prompted by a comment in another thread. Now I'm not exactly a regular Batman reader but am much more of a Daredevil fan. The comment was that supposedly DD is locked in a cycle with certain foes just like Batman is because of his unwillingness to kill. This referring to the main Batman and the main 616 Daredevil.

In fact, I believe that DD is much more brutal than Batman ever was. He routinely beats opponents into traction regardless of whether or not they have powers. He's killed before, in fact when battling the Hand, he kills their ninjas without a second thought even though they are human beings. He's also used deadly force against common thugs during times when he's been driven to insanity. Lately, he's been torturing criminals, specifically Hammerhead, Bullseye, and Ox and even said he felt good about it. When was the last time Batman suspended Bane from the ceiling with chains and went at him with a blow torch or carved a target into Joker's head with a rock? Finally, DD has actually attempted to murder both of his arch villains. During born again, he went into the Kingpin's office with the intention of murdering him and was severely beaten, though in a what if story, it clearly shows murderous intent. He's done the same to Bullseye. In fact he found out his secret identity and his past during a time when he stalked Bullseye with the intention of killing him in his sleep. He crosses the line waaaay more despite, and possibly because he's a lawyer...

Thoughts?

Apparently Batman was going to kill Darkseid and Gorilla Grodd.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Apparently Batman was going to kill Darkseid and Gorilla Grodd.

Anybody in their right mind would try to kill Darkseid

DD for sure, I mean lets face it if DD's main arch enemy was joker then DD would kill him without hesitation

I mean joker may survive a few storylines with DD but after a while I'm DD would take it upon himself to kill joker, but Batman...well jokers done many horrible things to the people that batman cares about the most but batman still refuses to kill joker and I think that shows that Batman has been taken to the limits and still refuses to kill...but DD kills and tortures and doesn't care...think that answers the question to this thread

I think DD's just more likely to. I don't think he would kill and he's had the chance to kill Bullseye or the Punisher before and stated it was a line he wouldn't cross.

Whereas with Batman, it's more deeply grained into his origin and his psyche. His whole thing is that he witnessed his parent's murders and swore it wouldn't happen to anyone else. That's why he's even saved the lives of his villains before. DD, by comparison, adopts a similar moral outlook but it's not so ingrained into him. He keeps just getting brought right to the abyss, but just manages to pull himself back every time.

Originally posted by jalek moye
Anybody in their right mind would try to kill Darkseid

The point is its against his moral code.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The point is its against his moral code.

Well it depends. Is this about who crosses their own personal line or the line of norms for their world and society as heroes?

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Well it depends. Is this about who crosses their own personal line or the line of norms for their world and society as heroes?

Their own line I think.

Originally posted by willRules
I think DD's just more likely to. I don't think he would kill and he's had the chance to kill Bullseye or the Punisher before and stated it was a line he wouldn't cross.

Whereas with Batman, it's more deeply grained into his origin and his psyche. His whole thing is that he witnessed his parent's murders and swore it wouldn't happen to anyone else. That's why he's even saved the lives of his villains before. DD, by comparison, adopts a similar moral outlook but it's not so ingrained into him. He keeps just getting brought right to the abyss, but just manages to pull himself back every time.


But he has crossed the line, he has fallen into that abyss. He does it all the time. He's carved up the hand's ninjas, he deflected a bullet back into a mobster's head, it's implied but not confirmed that he killed three muggers on a subway during Born Again, he kicked Typhoid out a window (admittedly accidentally). It's also been shown and later, explicitly stated in predator's smile that he routinely uses techniques and force meant to kill against Bullseye, figuring that his adamantium will protect him.

Originally posted by Darth Jello


In fact, I believe that DD is much more brutal than Batman ever was.

I can agree with this fact of yours. Simply because when Elektra died DD became a different character. Not an extreme like Punisher...but more certainly different. Prior to the death of Elektra, horn head was gentler crime fighter.

I dunno. He wasn't too gentle when he kicked Typhoid out a window.

In the end Batman holds back. I don't read DD that much so I can't really say.

Punisher

Originally posted by steverules_2
DD for sure, I mean lets face it if DD's main arch enemy was joker then DD would kill him without hesitation

I mean joker may survive a few storylines with DD but after a while I'm DD would take it upon himself to kill joker, but Batman...well jokers done many horrible things to the people that batman cares about the most but batman still refuses to kill joker and I think that shows that Batman has been taken to the limits and still refuses to kill...but DD kills and tortures and doesn't care...think that answers the question to this thread

I don't know...Bullseye has killed both Elektra & Karen Page and DD still held himself back in the end. And Bullseye enjoys killing, because he thinks deaths at his hand make him stronger. I don't think Joker would be that much different for DD - he wouldn't kill him outright. Plus, with his constant antagonism towards the Punisher, he knows he wouldn't be any different than Castle if he killed someone. As a lawyer, that part of his mind keeps him just inside the line.

Still, both DD & Batman had a couple of confirmed deaths on their hands - DD when he first met Nuke in the 'Born Again' storyline (blew up a helicopter randomly gunning down the public); Batman to save himself from an Apokolips footsoldier who had him cornered during 'Cosmic Odyssey'.

Again, do the ninjas of the Hand not count as people? Also, stopping when Bullseye's unconscious doesn't mean he doesn't try to kill him every time he kicks him out a window or jumps on a wire they're both standing on, or you know, that thing that happened afterward which to me always looked kind of intentional on DD's part...

Evil mystical Ninjas don't really count as people.

Why not?

This is why DD and Batman are the two best comic books

Originally posted by Quincy
This is why DD and Batman are the two best comic books

I think that has more to do with the quality of the writing and the art than brutality.

Agreed

I think the expectations of the characters are somewhat different, and the pressures.
Batman is like the savior of Gotham, working with the police against crime and all the super villains - chiefly, Joker. He does this mostly alone, with occasional support from the Huntress & Nightwing, and is so obsessive he's lucky to be rich and have someone run his company for him.
Daredevil is someone who mostly looks after his corner of New York City - a city that has a lot of vigilantes and superheroes - and has to have a day job to perform well in to keep going, and has a chief foe (Kingpin) who is just beyond the reach of the law.

I think there is more pressure on Batman to have the answers to fix Gotham, and so gets more criticism on how Joker continues to murder at will and spread misery. Daredevil does all he can do, but finds himself caught in the contradiction of enforcing the law by day but edging towards breaking it at night.

Originally posted by The Nuul
Evil mystical Ninjas don't really count as people.

Well they're still alive.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Well they're still alive.

If they turn to dust when they die they're not real people.

Well the status quo has changed. DD toppled the Kingpin twice, declared himself the kingpin, went to jail, and has now joined the Hand in an effort to reform them form within and defeat the influence of the Snakeroot. Furthermore, though legally dubious, his identity is an open secret since being outed by a tabloid.

Originally posted by roughrider
If they turn to dust when they die they're not real people.

That irrelevant. They still think, feel and have emotions.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
That irrelevant. They still think, feel and have emotions.

Apparently not. Their only interest is getting paid to kill anyone outside their circle.
If you're going to claim such deaths at the hands of Daredevil, let's see some scans.

no scanner I'm afraid. I throw myself at the mercy of my peers.

Originally posted by roughrider
Apparently not. Their only interest is getting paid to kill anyone outside their circle.

Doesn't mean they are not alive that means they're brainwashed. That also doesnt disprove wether they can think or have emotions they still do.

Originally posted by roughrider

If you're going to claim such deaths at the hands of Daredevil, let's see some scans.


Yes I like how you haven't even proved wether they are alive or not yet but are convienetly now trying to demand scans from me of wether DD has killed Hand ninjas. Why on earth would you do that unless you know your argument for them not being alive is weak?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone





Yes I like how you haven't even proved wether they are alive or not yet but are convienetly now trying to demand scans from me of wether DD has killed Hand ninjas. Why on earth would you do that unless you know your argument for them not being alive is weak?

Because we can spend several hours discussing the meaning of life and what counts as living - or maybe the simplier way is showing scans of such events happening, because I haven't heard of Daredevil killing any members of The Hand.
Him doing so would seem to go against how he does his job in Hell's Kitchen.

Originally posted by roughrider
Because we can spend several hours discussing the meaning of life and what counts as living -

Yeah and we might just do that, turning to dust when you die doesn't mean your not alive. Think about it, that simply means using that logic that other lifeforms that die and act differently to other humans aren't alive because they are different. Alive = sentient, not neccsarily human.

Originally posted by roughrider

or maybe the simplier way is showing scans of such events happening, because I haven't heard of Daredevil killing any members of The Hand.
Him doing so would seem to go against how he does his job in Hell's Kitchen.

The nearest thing off the top of my head is letting and giving The Punisher permission to gun down The Hand and then later on in that issue getting upset because Pun tried to kill the Slug.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yeah and we might just do that, turning to dust when you die doesn't mean your not alive. Think about it, that simply means using that logic that other lifeforms that die and act differently to other humans aren't alive because they are different. Alive = sentient, not neccsarily human.



The nearest thing off the top of my head is letting and giving The Punisher permission to gun down The Hand and then later on in that issue getting upset because Pun tried to kill the Slug.

You know, if you look at my earlier posts, I have already given two examples of deaths by Daredevil & Batman ( 'Born Again', 'Cosmic Odyssey') when they had no choice. We're talking here about Daredevil killing members of The Hand en masse, like he was Wolverine. Sounds like it didn't really happen, then.

Originally posted by roughrider
You know, if you look at my earlier posts, I have already given two examples of deaths by Daredevil & Batman ( 'Born Again', 'Cosmic Odyssey') when they had no choice.

Yeah ok, so?

Originally posted by roughrider

We're talking here about Daredevil killing members of The Hand en masse, like he was Wolverine.

He probably has. Hell Nomad killed some by just punching and kicking them.


Originally posted by roughrider
Sounds like it didn't really happen, then.

Okkkk you do realise that its still relevant to the subject? You do realise that he allowed somebody to kill a sentient being and you realsie he could have stopped him?

Originally posted by Phantom Zone





Okkkk you do realise that its still relevant to the subject? You do realise that he allowed somebody to kill a sentient being and you realsie he could have stopped him?

In 'Born Again' he fired a rocket launcher he took from Nuke and destroyed a helicopter (and it's pilot) when it was shooting away at civilians. I think THAT is a more relevant example of him taking lethal force in his hands than this Hand argument you are fixated on.

Did he or did he not fight and kill members of them - Yes or No?

Not "Well, he didn't try to stop Punisher from gunning them down..."

Originally posted by steverules_2
DD for sure, I mean lets face it if DD's main arch enemy was joker then DD would kill him without hesitation

I mean joker may survive a few storylines with DD but after a while I'm DD would take it upon himself to kill joker, but Batman...well jokers done many horrible things to the people that batman cares about the most but batman still refuses to kill joker and I think that shows that Batman has been taken to the limits and still refuses to kill...but DD kills and tortures and doesn't care...think that answers the question to this thread Good point.thats why I would say Daredevil wins.

Originally posted by willRules
I think DD's just more likely to. I don't think he would kill and he's had the chance to kill Bullseye or the Punisher before and stated it was a line he wouldn't cross.

Whereas with Batman, it's more deeply grained into his origin and his psyche. His whole thing is that he witnessed his parent's murders and swore it wouldn't happen to anyone else. That's why he's even saved the lives of his villains before. DD, by comparison, adopts a similar moral outlook but it's not so ingrained into him. He keeps just getting brought right to the abyss, but just manages to pull himself back every time.

also well said which is why I also got to go with Daredevil easily.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
This was kind of prompted by a comment in another thread. Now I'm not exactly a regular Batman reader but am much more of a Daredevil fan. The comment was that supposedly DD is locked in a cycle with certain foes just like Batman is because of his unwillingness to kill. This referring to the main Batman and the main 616 Daredevil.

In fact, I believe that DD is much more brutal than Batman ever was. He routinely beats opponents into traction regardless of whether or not they have powers. He's killed before, in fact when battling the Hand, he kills their ninjas without a second thought even though they are human beings. He's also used deadly force against common thugs during times when he's been driven to insanity. Lately, he's been torturing criminals, specifically Hammerhead, Bullseye, and Ox and even said he felt good about it. When was the last time Batman suspended Bane from the ceiling with chains and went at him with a blow torch or carved a target into Joker's head with a rock? Finally, DD has actually attempted to murder both of his arch villains. During born again, he went into the Kingpin's office with the intention of murdering him and was severely beaten, though in a what if story, it clearly shows murderous intent. He's done the same to Bullseye. In fact he found out his secret identity and his past during a time when he stalked Bullseye with the intention of killing him in his sleep. He crosses the line waaaay more despite, and possibly because he's a lawyer...

Thoughts?

Not to mention the opening post on the start of this the thread is why Dardevil wins easily as well .

Let's not forget another Jim Starlin Batman storyline - 'Ten Nights Of The Beast'. Batman locks the KGBeast in an underground chamber basically to starve to death.
It was only a year later in 'Batman Year 3' that Nightwing takes him to task over it - Batman says he called the police eventually - but Dick contends it was much later, and that Bruce seriously thought about letting him die. Bruce didn't deny it.

Two more examples, one kind of non-canon, the other semi-canon. The first is from an old issue of what if... regarding Born Again. Here DD pockets the gun off the cop he takes out on the subway, and then upon arriving in Fisk's office, simply shoots him in the head. Granted he's survived Echo doing that, this time...not so lucky. I consider What if... stuff to occasionally be relevant because the events described are small changes in fate (initially) and do not necessarily differ from cannon motivations and attitudes of a character.

The second example comes from Man Without Fear. That whole book is only semi-canon because a lot of the events are contradictory, but this is one that's been brought up later. In the last issue, while protecting a girl from who was at that time the Kingpin's chief assassin, DD knocks a bullet back at him, taking out his frontal lobe and showing no remorse for it. Pretty cold.

Im a huge Batman fan but DD ftw. Batman dosnt kill. DD will if he must. thts just how it is

Originally posted by Indestructible
Im a huge Batman fan but DD ftw. Batman dosnt kill. DD will if he must. thts just how it is

Yet he's had so many opportunities to kill Bullseye and hasn't done it; he has more reason to kill him than anyone else.
He has come close - in the aftermath of Bullseye killing Elektra, DD dropped him from a height of several stories, which led to his longtime hospitalization and adamantium bone replacements (actually, DD was holding him up, and Bullseye was going to stab him anyway with a sai, so it could be justifiable self preservation.)
Then while stuck in the hospital, DD appeared at his bedside and played Russian Roulette with a .38 on him, only to reveal as he pulled the trigger on the final chamber that he had no bullets. He said they were just stuck together.

Originally posted by roughrider
Yet he's had so many opportunities to kill Bullseye and hasn't done it; he has more reason to kill him than anyone else.
He has come close - in the aftermath of Bullseye killing Elektra, DD dropped him from a height of several stories, which led to his longtime hospitalization and adamantium bone replacements (actually, DD was holding him up, and Bullseye was going to stab him anyway with a sai, so it could be justifiable self preservation.)
Then while stuck in the hospital, DD appeared at his bedside and played Russian Roulette with a .38 on him, only to reveal as he pulled the trigger on the final chamber that he had no bullets. He said they were just stuck together.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_qZK742rc1hc/Sc66FUUaIKI/AAAAAAAAJIk/5E7V7nW2ShU/s1600/Daredevil%2B181-35%2B.jpg







Still looks kind of deliberate to me considering what DD says, despite Bullseye trying to stab him.

God damn Daredevil is badass

I also want to point out that the Colonel piloting Nuke's helicopter survived and gave testimony against the Kingpin in DD 300. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I believe he was killed by either the Kingpin or HYDRA

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I also want to point out that the Colonel piloting Nuke's helicopter survived and gave testimony against the Kingpin in DD 300. I don't remember off the top of my head, but I believe he was killed by either the Kingpin or HYDRA

He survived that explosion? He had nowhere to go - chopper was blown up in the air.

Don't know what to tell ya. Maybe I'm confusing two characters. I'll check my copies of the Last Rites issues tonight and make sure. I'm fairly certain he was alive though.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Don't know what to tell ya. Maybe I'm confusing two characters. I'll check my copies of the Last Rites issues tonight and make sure. I'm fairly certain he was alive though.

Maybe it was the Colonel/General at the New York headquarters who testified - the same one who brushed off Captain America when he came in with questions about Nuke. He was in video contact with the Kingpin about how they will contain the story.

Originally posted by roughrider
In 'Born Again' he fired a rocket launcher he took from Nuke and destroyed a helicopter (and it's pilot) when it was shooting away at civilians. I think THAT is a more relevant example of him taking lethal force in his hands than this Hand argument you are fixated on.


What you don't get is that im not denying it didn't happen.

Originally posted by roughrider

Did he or did he not fight and kill members of them - Yes or No?

Not "Well, he didn't try to stop Punisher from gunning them down..."

Look no offense but I think the point im trying to make has gone completely over your head.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone




Look no offense but I think the point im trying to make has gone completely over your head.

No...I think you made a statement you can't back up with facts, is all. You're evading.

Originally posted by roughrider
No...I think you made a statement you can't back up with facts, is all. You're evading.

See your still not getting it. I understand that the example isn't of DD killing any Hand ninjas, but the topic of discussion is who crosses the line more. DD didn't kill any Hand ninjas but as a crime fighter its his duty to prevent the loss of life and he often does that by physically restraing people and therefore preventing them killing or hurting others. By allowing Punisher to kill sentient beings he is not doing his duty and is responsible for their deaths because he could have prevented it.

I DD is probably in the top 12 skilled fighters in the marvel universe but he's not up to par to stopping any member of the chaste or master izo from killing someone. Oh, and checking back, it was the General in court, not the pilot. I guess DD did kill that guy. Oh and in DD 189, there is a panel or two where DD is killing the Hand directly, including one where he's stabbing one in the head with Sai.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
See your still not getting it. I understand that the example isn't of DD killing any Hand ninjas, but the topic of discussion is who crosses the line more. DD didn't kill any Hand ninjas but as a crime fighter its his duty to prevent the loss of life and he often does that by physically restraing people and therefore preventing them killing or hurting others. By allowing Punisher to kill sentient beings he is not doing his duty and is responsible for their deaths because he could have prevented it.




And I believe that is not the same thing.
Daredevil also didn't stop Punisher using heavy armaments and firearms against some trolls from Asgard led by Ulik, who were on a rampage through New York(the scans should be in the Punisher Respect Thread.) Punisher may not have succeeded in killing them, but what if he had been? If all life is sacred, then I guess he failed his duty there as well.
Unless he knows sometimes you have to pick your spots. But Batman knows that too - he recently shot & killed Darkseid, didn't he?

Originally posted by roughrider
And I believe that is not the same thing.

Not the samething is killing somebody? Like I said it doesn't matter.

Originally posted by roughrider

Daredevil also didn't stop Punisher using heavy armaments and firearms against some trolls from Asgard led by Ulik, who were on a rampage through New York(the scans should be in the Punisher Respect Thread.) Punisher may not have succeeded in killing them, but what if he had been? If all life is sacred, then I guess he failed his duty there as well.

Unless he knows sometimes you have to pick your spots. But Batman knows that too - he recently shot & killed Darkseid, didn't he?

The bottomline is those people were killed because they weren't human. Hell well ok Batman killed Darkseid? Oh ok so its not enough to be mass murdering pyschopath you have to become an. evil god. So its mass mudering pyschopath....sacred. Evil God not sacred? Hypocrisy.

Furthermore if your going to use pick your spots as an excuse hand ninjas were nowhere near potentially dangerous as Ulik and his rock trolls, so what reason was there for DD to pick his spot? They weren't human thats it.

Maybe we can end this debate this way.
I think Batman and Daredevil sit on the same side of the line and are pretty much equal on staying on that side, despite the exceptions listed.
I haven't voted because I'm not sure either has crossed the line enough to make an argument one way or the other.
But, after thinking it over, I believe the one who has the potential to go further when really pressed - is Daredevil. (Hypothetically)

Bruce is too scarred by watching his parent's murder to consider lethal force; it goes against the very methods he uses to fight crime and be the example he wants to set.
Matt also had a parent gunned down and believes in setting an example, but he has shown more often a capability to lose his mind and do something irrational or crazy; Batman tries to be cold and contained at all times by comparison (which is kind of like The Punisher, without the calm methodology of killing your foes.)

Well, past wise, I feel like Bruce still (as far as I know) has a pretty idealized version of his parents prior to their murder. Everything in DD's past has been given at least somewhat of a dark twist.

His mother abandoned him to become a nun, he caught his father crying after wrestling in a Devil outfit, his father beat him at least once, he caught his dad working protection, and the blind guy he saved in the accident which gave him his supposed powers (it was later revealed that this just jump started natural senses that everyone can develop, that DD has no super powers per se and really is actually at a slight disadvantage being blind) turned out to be a horrible alcoholic who raped his daughter, herself becoming the serial murderer Johnny Sockets.

I don't remember Bruce's childhood prior to his Parents' death being that twisted.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Well, past wise, I feel like Bruce still (as far as I know) has a pretty idealized version of his parents prior to their murder. Everything in DD's past has been given at least somewhat of a dark twist.

His mother abandoned him to become a nun, he caught his father crying after wrestling in a Devil outfit, his father beat him at least once, he caught his dad working protection, and the blind guy he saved in the accident which gave him his supposed powers (it was later revealed that this just jump started natural senses that everyone can develop, that DD has no super powers per se and really is actually at a slight disadvantage being blind) turned out to be a horrible alcoholic who raped his daughter, herself becoming the serial murderer Johnny Sockets.

I don't remember Bruce's childhood prior to his Parents' death being that twisted.

It's funny how those two pasts have created very different personalities.
Bruce is cold & withdrawn towards almost everyone - you have to really work at him to get genuine feeling. It's self protection against loss in his mind. While Matt has a large number of real friends, and has real relationships with women (that unfortunately always seem to end in tragedy.) Matt seems to be crazier - of course as Daredevil he seems crazy, in contrast to Batman's cold monster of vengeance - but is he actually better adjusted than Bruce? He deals with things. Bruce bottles things up and ignores them.

As much as I love DD, I feel like this thread is leaning a little light on Batman. Can we have some details or counterarguments please? Otherwise this can simply be merged with the DD respect thread if it becomes a Matt Murdock ass kissing party.

Daredevil's a less mainstream character, and writers can therefore make more drastic changes to the character. If Batman blew up a helicopter with a rocket launcher, a lot of fanboys would be pretty pissed off. Miller made it pretty clear that Daredevil's pretty ****ed up, and that actually he could lose it in a way that Batman hasn't really been shown to in mainstream continuity.
Yeah, I know someone's going to come and tell me how wrong I am and how examples X, Y and Z contradict this now...

hmmm, how about the helicopter fight at the end of Death in the Family?