Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica

jaden101

Not to mention with this 1st few sentences they limit it to "empire vs federation"...Given thaat the empire run their entire galaxy compared with the federations's non war making tiny fraction of their galaxy it's a bit pointless.

If you want to include ST's more aggressive species...the Borg and the Dominion/Jem Hadar then it's far more balanced.

We take it from there. The Borg have far greater numbers....Stated as "billions of vessels containing trillions of drones" which is just the central nexus and doesn't include borg vessels outwith that small area. So potentiall hundreds of trillions of drones and hundreds of billions of ships. Compare that with what's known about SW. Han says that it would take a thousand stardestroyers to cause the same damage that the death star caused. Implying that the empire doesn't have a thousand star destroyers. Take the events after epVI whereby in the Thrawn trilogy, just 500 old republic cruisers of the Katana fleet would swing the balance of power in the galaxy.

Given that each Borg cube is large and more powerful than a standard stardestroyer...Then you have an empire that is outnumbered and outgunned by huge degrees.

The Jem Hadar have similar numbers and are a far more aggressive race. Artificially bred solely for war. They have personal cloaking builit into their biology. They require no sleep, no rest, no food...They can fight continuously. They can also be artificially made to fighting level in 3 days.

ST has ablative armour technology which disapates energy based weapons rendering them useless. SW relies solely on energy based weapons.

In terms of weaponry, I showed, by canon sources, how a single photon torpedo is some 20+ times more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth...the "tsar bomba". SW vessels have nothing as powerful.

We've shown in the thread that ST ships are more manueverable at sub light speeds....We've shown they have a larger range (10 fold) than SW ships. We've shown that while hyperdrive is faster than warp drive....transwarp is WAY faster than hyperdrive.

So please. Do read the thread and try and counter the points made in it.

Namely phased weapons, cloaking, adaptation (by the Borg), number of troops/vessels based on canon sources. The fact that a phaser can disintegrate a person yet a standard blaster has been shown to hit main characters and cause little injury. (Leia getting shot in the arm)

Face it. ST just has a far longer period and far more material to draw on. Its EU sources are just as large as SW but it's primary canon sources are far greater. hundreds of hours of shows with which to have written and shown far superior technology.

One piece of technology alone gives that ST armies a huge advantage...transporters.

So no...Your link is desperately trying to pull a win out the bag for SW by not including everything the ST galaxy has.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/

Try that site instead.

doan_m

Originally posted by jaden101
Hmm..."stardestroyer.net"...I wonder if there's any bias in there at all?
The author of the page did say that all he did was pulled out figures from Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections (SW2ICS) and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual (TNG TM).

jaden101

So you're not going to counter the points then?

Didn't think so.

Robtard

"Resistance is futile. Your life as it has been is over. From this time forward, you will service us."

Sincerely,

The Borg

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
It really doesn't.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f103/t499313.html

Read that thread in its entirety to see why Star Wars is far inferior in terms of technology.

Um, no offense, but do you really expect me to read ALL of that? Maybe just retell the evidence?

Originally posted by jaden101
Hmm..."stardestroyer.net"...I wonder if there's any bias in there at all?

Of course it's biased, but then again so, it is likely, are you. Does that mean that what you're saying is wrong? No! It can be "biased" and still right.

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Of course it's biased, but then again so, it is likely, are you. Does that mean that what you're saying is wrong? No! It can be "biased" and still right.

Difference is, he weighed out ST and SW equally, ie he didn't cherry-pick certain things that favoured SW and certain things that didn't favour ST and then compare those.

Universe to universe, tech to tech, ST destroys SW.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
Difference is, he weighed out ST and SW equally, ie he didn't cherry-pick certain things that favoured SW and certain things that didn't favour ST and then compare those.

Universe to universe, tech to tech, ST destroys SW.

Proof? Not saying that you're wrong, just asking...I mean, those numbers on the link are RIDICOULOUSLY in favor of SW...

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Um, no offense, but do you really expect me to read ALL of that? Maybe just retell the evidence?

Yes, I do expect you to actually read the facts before spouting your opinion. I'm actually trying to help you from looking a complete idiot which is something you are prone to do on a regular basis on these boards.

Oddly enough though, I've already summerised a tiny bit of the evidence against your opinion and you didn't even bother to read that.

I actually prefer SW over ST. I just happen to know both at a reasonably high level and can make objective opinions. So stop making baseless assumptions and actually find out the facts before making retarded 1 line posts that are nothing more than "Star Wars is best" with no actual evidence to back up your opinion.

The reality is if you'd bothered to look into both, you'd realise SW is vastly outnumbered and have greatly inferior technology.

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Proof? Not saying that you're wrong, just asking...I mean, those numbers on the link are RIDICOULOUSLY in favor of SW...

Already pointed out, but here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/

The Borg would sodomize and assimilate the entire SW universe, by itself, adding in all the other species/groups like the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians etc., is sheer overkill.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Yes, I do expect you to actually read the facts before spouting your opinion. I'm actually trying to help you from looking a complete idiot which is something you are prone to do on a regular basis on these boards.

...

Originally posted by jaden101

Oddly enough though, I've already summerised a tiny bit of the evidence against your opinion and you didn't even bother to read that.

Originally posted by jaden101
Not to mention with this 1st few sentences they limit it to "empire vs federation"...Given thaat the empire run their entire galaxy compared with the federations's non war making tiny fraction of their galaxy it's a bit pointless.

Well...(see below)

Originally posted by jaden101

If you want to include ST's more aggressive species...the Borg and the Dominion/Jem Hadar then it's far more balanced.

Wrong, the site (Stardestroyer.net) actually talks a lot about other factions, especially the Borg.

Originally posted by jaden101

We take it from there. The Borg have far greater numbers....Stated as "billions of vessels containing trillions of drones" which is just the central nexus and doesn't include borg vessels outwith that small area. So potentiall hundreds of trillions of drones and hundreds of billions of ships. Compare that with what's known about SW. Han says that it would take a thousand stardestroyers to cause the same damage that the death star caused. Implying that the empire doesn't have a thousand star destroyers. Take the events after epVI whereby in the Thrawn trilogy, just 500 old republic cruisers of the Katana fleet would swing the balance of power in the galaxy.

What do they mean by "vessels"? This could mean ships/fighters or anything. Stardestroyer.net claims that ST also includes normal fighters into their ship count, not saying that this is true, although he probably did get this from a source.

Originally posted by jaden101

Given that each Borg cube is large and more powerful than a standard stardestroyer...Then you have an empire that is outnumbered and outgunned by huge degrees.

PROVE IT

Originally posted by jaden101

The Jem Hadar have similar numbers and are a far more aggressive race. Artificially bred solely for war. They have personal cloaking builit into their biology. They require no sleep, no rest, no food...They can fight continuously. They can also be artificially made to fighting level in 3 days.

Some good advantages, but not enough to seal a win.

Originally posted by jaden101

ST has ablative armour technology which disapates energy based weapons rendering them useless. SW relies solely on energy based weapons.

Uh no, SW doesn't rely solely on energy weapons, ie they have guided missiles.

And since when does the ablative armor render energy weapons USELESS? Why does ST still use energy weapons in huge amounts then?

Originally posted by jaden101

In terms of weaponry, I showed, by canon sources, how a single photon torpedo is some 20+ times more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth...the "tsar bomba". SW vessels have nothing as powerful.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

Uses OFFICIAL numbers, and you'll see that many Star Wars ships have the firepower of FAR more than 20 times that of a nuclear weapon.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101

We've shown in the thread that ST ships are more manueverable at sub light speeds....We've shown they have a larger range (10 fold) than SW ships. We've shown that while hyperdrive is faster than warp drive....transwarp is WAY faster than hyperdrive.

The thing is 23 pages. Can't you just explain these claims/evidence?

Originally posted by jaden101

Namely phased weapons, cloaking, adaptation (by the Borg), number of troops/vessels based on canon sources. The fact that a phaser can disintegrate a person yet a standard blaster has been shown to hit main characters and cause little injury. (Leia getting shot in the arm)

Face it. ST just has a far longer period and far more material to draw on. Its EU sources are just as large as SW but it's primary canon sources are far greater. hundreds of hours of shows with which to have written and shown far superior technology.

Star Trek lacks (or maybe they don't, forgive me if I'm wrong) tanks, heavy weapons, machine guns, and a bunch of other stuff.

laughing

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The thing is 23 pages. Can't you just explain these claims/evidence?

Star Trek lacks (or maybe they don't, forgive me if I'm wrong) tanks, heavy weapons, machine guns, and a bunch of other stuff.

laughing

Are you seriously claiming that:

ST has a longer period (even though, SW has MILLIONS OF YEARS of civilization, meaning that you'll have MILLIONS OF YEARS WORTH Of forces vs a few hundred years? Sure, ST has more episodes...so what? That doesn't make them more powerful).

EU IS CANON! Just because ST EU isn't doesn't mean the same for SW: SW EU is perfectly canon as long as it doesn't directly contradict the movies.

Oops! Sorry, misinterpreted the last part. Still, if you include the EU, Star Wars does indeed rival Star Wars in content.

You never just misinterpreted the last part but the 2nd last part too. I didn't mean the ST universe spans a longer period. I mean that ST has been going since the 1960's and has had 5 different TV series with some 800 hour long episodes as well as 11 movies not to mention all the canon novels and games to draw upon in terms of technology that has been mentioned. SW has 6 movies, some 30 tv episodes, a fair few games and novels.

There's just vastly more material written and shown about the ST universe. It has far more innovation in terms of writing with regards to technology.

I've already highlighted a few in this thread which the SW tech has no answer for.

There's also small but devestating technologies such as phased cloaks which allow ships to be undetectable and pass through energy shielding and even solid objects. Ships were shown in ST to be able to hide inside solid rock because of it.

They've also applied the phasing technology to weapons and so have nuclear weapon equivalent torpedos that can pass straight through energy shielding.

They have ablative armour which is effectively impervious to energy weapons (rendering SW turbo lasers etc completely useless)

No they don't have ground weapons in any large numbers but they wouldn't even need them. They could simply wipe those enemies out from orbit because they have the technology to do so.

There's also the fact that ST has technology that can shield and cloak ENTIRE PLANETS.

As i've already mentioned. In the Thrawn trilogy it's said that 500 old republic cruisers would turn the tide of power in the galaxy...Only 500 ships. The borg alone have potentially hundreds of billions of ships with up to 100,000 drones on each. This is one species. The Jem Hadar have similar numbers of troops that are bred solely for war.

When I have time, i'll copy and paste some pieces of info from the other thread in here for you to read. They hopefully mean you won't make ignorant statements based on no evidence.

jaden101

It's irrelvant given that we know that all Borg ships are outfitted with the same technology. A standard cube is far greater in size and power than a star destroyer. A tactical cube is smaller but far more powerful as it has enhanced weapons and shielding (including ablative hull armour) and the scout sphere's are smaller but still armed enough easily tackle high powered federation ships.

A borg cube is 3km by 3km by 3km. A Star destroyer is less than 3km long. Never mind in both other dimensions.

Here's wookipedias page on the imperial II class destoyer.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer

Stats on the right say 1600m long

Here's the memory-alpha page on a borg cube.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_cube

It states a borg cube is 28 cubic kms. Do the cube root of that and it's 3.03km

See? You can't even be bothered to read facts to back up your own opinion. Never mind read those that disagree. SW has proton torpedos which rarely get used.

What do you mean "since when?". You do realise that ablative armour is actually a scientific fact. They use a version of it on the space shuttles now and it's what disipates the heat energy of re-entry.

Do you even know what ablative armour does? Doubt it. What it does is it absorbs energy and disintegrates at a controlled rate.

And ST still uses energy weapons because not all species use ablative armour (although for the purposes of a vs debate we can allow factions within a universe to share technology to fight an outide enemy similar to what the Federation and Borg did to fight species 8472)

Speaking of species 8472. This species comes from an extremely dense fluidic space (their entire universe is liquid) and they can combine 8 single pilot small bioships to destroy entire planets. We're talking about ships about the size of the millenium falcon. SW has nothing to combat this species. Not to mention that they have an entire universe of numbers to call upon and we know from canon sources that thousands and thousands of them were pouring throught the rift from Borg space to fluidic space.

You're out of your depth here clearly. Stop talking utter nonsense and admit when you're beaten.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
It's irrelvant given that we know that all Borg ships are outfitted with the same technology. A standard cube is far greater in size and power than a star destroyer. A tactical cube is smaller but far more powerful as it has enhanced weapons and shielding (including ablative hull armour) and the scout sphere's are smaller but still armed enough easily tackle high powered federation ships.

Outfitted with same tech =/= being equal.

Originally posted by jaden101

A borg cube is 3km by 3km by 3km. A Star destroyer is less than 3km long. Never mind in both other dimensions.

Here's wookipedias page on the imperial II class destoyer.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_II-class_Star_Destroyer

Stats on the right say 1600m long

Here's the memory-alpha page on a borg cube.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_cube

It states a borg cube is 28 cubic kms. Do the cube root of that and it's 3.03km

So the Borg Cube is bigger...cool? Bigger =/= more powerful.

Originally posted by jaden101

See? You can't even be bothered to read facts to back up your own opinion. Never mind read those that disagree. SW has proton torpedos which rarely get used.

No, proton torpedoes are not "rarely used", where did you get this info from?

Originally posted by jaden101

What do you mean "since when?". You do realise that ablative armour is actually a scientific fact. They use a version of it on the space shuttles now and it's what disipates the heat energy of re-entry.

Do you even know what ablative armour does? Doubt it. What it does is it absorbs energy and disintegrates at a controlled rate.

And ST still uses energy weapons because not all species use ablative armour (although for the purposes of a vs debate we can allow factions within a universe to share technology to fight an outide enemy similar to what the Federation and Borg did to fight species 8472)

Ok...how does it being a scientific fact make it more powerful?

Ok...cool. Doesn't mean that it doesn't have a limit as to how much it can absorb.

So now we're allowed to share tech?

Originally posted by jaden101

Speaking of species 8472. This species comes from an extremely dense fluidic space (their entire universe is liquid) and they can combine 8 single pilot small bioships to destroy entire planets. We're talking about ships about the size of the millenium falcon. SW has nothing to combat this species. Not to mention that they have an entire universe of numbers to call upon and we know from canon sources that thousands and thousands of them were pouring throught the rift from Borg space to fluidic space.

True, species 8472 is a significant threat.

Originally posted by jaden101

You're out of your depth here clearly. Stop talking utter nonsense and admit when you're beaten.

nothing to respond to here, since it is a pointless, bashing and idiotic statement that does not offer any rebuttal or proof whatsoever.

Actually respond to my last post please.

Robtard

Originally posted by doan_m
Hardly surprising, especially considering that said ships were particularly powerful for its time. Hell a few ships swinging the balance of powers is something that happens often in SW. Look at the Death Star. That ONE ship(battle station is more appropriate term) was more than enough to freak out the Rebellion considering the massive threat it posed to them.

This same super-weapon was destroyed by one ship via a single shot.

To further the tech Vs tech debate-comparison, SW had to build a moon-sized ship to destroy a planet. ST can destroy an entire solar system with one trilithium torpedo.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard

ST can destroy an entire solar system with one trilithium torpedo.

So can SW's Sun Crusher.

doan_m

Originally posted by Robtard
This same super-weapon was destroyed by one ship via a single shot.
By exploiting a weakness that took a crapload of espionage to filter out that cost oh so many spies IIRC. A design flaw also remedied in the design plan of the second death star.

It does destroy the planet, but it completely vapes the planet with direct energy whilest also overcoming the planetary shields at the same time.

Which works exclusively for the sun by screwing over the reactions that take place inside it. A formidable weapon no doubt but i seriously doubt that it could be applied to much else.

Hewhoknowsall

Correct Doan m

and SW has it too in the form of the Sun Crusher...

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So can SW's Sun Crusher.

EU gay-ness.

Also, that will make a formidable weapon once the Borg assimilate it.

Robtard

Originally posted by doan_m
By exploiting a weakness that took a crapload of espionage to filter out that cost oh so many spies IIRC. A design flaw also remedied in the design plan of the second death star.

It does destroy the planet, but it completely vapes the planet with direct energy whilest also overcoming the planetary shields at the same time.

Which works exclusively for the sun by screwing over the reactions that take place inside it. A formidable weapon no doubt but i seriously doubt that it could be applied to much else.

And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.

Tech Vs Tech point still stands.

doan_m

Originally posted by Robtard
And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.

Err..... What?

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
And?

When the Deathstar fired on Alderan(?), it didn't destroy the planet, despite the planet going boom? Okay.

Tech Vs Tech point still stands.

...what?

Robtard

Originally posted by doan_m
Err..... What?

In A New Hope, Deathstar shoots at a planet; planet goes boom. Obi says he felt a great disturbance in the Force, due to the billions of deaths.

Edit: I thought you said "it doesn't destroy", so nevermind.

doan_m

Originally posted by Robtard
In A New Hope, Deathstar shoots at a planet; planet goes boom. Obi says he felt a great disturbance in the Force, due to the billions of deaths.
This refutes Alderaan being blown up by the Death Star? How?

Robtard

Originally posted by doan_m
This refutes Alderaan being blown up by the Death Star? How?

Miss-read you, see above.

jaden101

Are you two actually this dense? It's not a difficult point to get. You used a site to claim that Star Wars beats Star Trek despite the fact

that it only takes into account the federation and not the countless other species of far greater power and technology than the federation. And you do this in a thread which is supposed to be about the whole of SW vs the whole of ST.

Already described them...Clearly not paying attention...Again.

The you're an idiot. His quote is something like "The entire empire fleet couldn't destroy a planet...It would take 1000 Star Destroyers..." Clearly showing the empire DON'T HAVE 1000 star destroyers.

Well they were around 100 year old ships at the time and comparable to the imperial II destroyers were actually really weak. Which in turn, compared with a borg cube are also really weak.

So what's the highest possible canon? Is it hundreds of billions or stardestroyers? No. Hence they're outnumbered by a single species...One of many in the ST universe.

Can clone troopers be engineered in 3 days to full fighting ability? No
Do clone troopers have biological cloaking devices in their DNA? No
Can clone troopers fight around the clock with no need for rest, sleep, food or water? No
Are clone troopers significantly more powerful than humans? No

Your point would be valid if Clone Troopers of Storm Troopers had superior firepower...They don't. And if you can't see what benefit a personal biological cloaking device has then you're clearly scraping the barrell for excuses to not admit defeat.

I'm well aware of the "Base Delta Zero". It's a pity it takes fleets of Star Destoyers days to accomplish it.

On the other hand. 9 small species 8472 bioships can do this
V4LR6Ev27FQ

In a matter of seconds.

And there's an entire universe full of them.

So the ST manual is a single figure for all ships? That'd be no. If you want canon use your eyes. It clearly obvious that ST ships are vastly more manueverable and have a far longer range.

This you trying to make it Star Fleet only again?...Fail

The burden of proof actually lies on you. You're the one who made the following claim

So far you've utterly failed to back that claim up.

Do you have any clue what phased weapons are? They phase out of normal space/time and so bypass any kind of shielding or armour. Does SW have anything to counter this at all?

Actually they do. Clearly many species have had weapons that have killed Borg drones and ships. Power magnitude has nothing to do with it though. It's frequency. Which is what the Borg adapt to.

How many SW ships use physical projectiles? And before you say proton torpedos, the Borg easily adapted to photon torpedos and would do so to proton torpedos just as easily. The only time "physical projectiles" were effective is when Picard used an old tommy gun on the holodeck with the safety protocols switched off. Hardly applicable is it?

And is his one shot representative of the norm? No. It would be good if you could manage not to contradict yourself.

Well given that your knowledge of the ST universe is quite clearly as close to zero as possible then you're not really in the best position to judge are you?

The Borg's do. As does the Breen and several other species.

Bit difficult to do that given that you haven't put forward any arguments.

Hewhoknowsall

I'll respond to SOME of these that aren't about something that can't be defined just by looking at this close, although they weren't directed at me...

Originally posted by jaden101
Are you two actually this dense? It's not a difficult point to get. You used a site to claim that Star Wars beats Star Trek despite the fact

that it only takes into account the federation and not the countless other species of far greater power and technology than the federation. And you do this in a thread which is supposed to be about the whole of SW vs the whole of ST.

Wrong. Stardestroyer.net does delve into other species, ESPECIALLY the Borg, and talks about how the Borg CANNOT simply assimilate SW tech.

Originally posted by jaden101

The you're an idiot. His quote is something like "The entire empire fleet couldn't destroy a planet...It would take 1000 Star Destroyers..." Clearly showing the empire DON'T HAVE 1000 star destroyers.

wtf? If this army commander says "it would take an army to defeat them" does that mean that they don't have an army? No! It was stated that the Empire has 25,000 star destroyers, and "1000" may very well be a figure of speech.

Originally posted by jaden101

So what's the highest possible canon? Is it hundreds of billions or stardestroyers? No. Hence they're outnumbered by a single species...One of many in the ST universe.

1. Numbers do not win battles.
2. It is not clear what "vessels" means for the Borg.
3. Most ST species don't have those numbers.
4. CIS has a quadrillion battle droids.

Originally posted by jaden101

Can clone troopers be engineered in 3 days to full fighting ability? No
Do clone troopers have biological cloaking devices in their DNA? No
Can clone troopers fight around the clock with no need for rest, sleep, food or water? No
Are clone troopers significantly more powerful than humans? No

This is one species that you are talking about. What happened to all of the others? Sure they're powerful, but not powerful enough to single handedly solo Star Wars, so you aren't exactly proving a point here.

Originally posted by jaden101

Your point would be valid if Clone Troopers of Storm Troopers had superior firepower...They don't. And if you can't see what benefit a personal biological cloaking device has then you're clearly scraping the barrell for excuses to not admit defeat.

How many species actually have biological cloaking devices?

Originally posted by jaden101

I'm well aware of the "Base Delta Zero". It's a pity it takes fleets of Star Destoyers days to accomplish it.

On the other hand. 9 small species 8472 bioships can do this
V4LR6Ev27FQ

In a matter of seconds.

And there's an entire universe full of them.

And the Death Star can do it. So can the Galaxy Gun. And the Sun Crusher can destroy an entire Solar System. Even better, Centerpoint station can destroy and even MOVE planets/stars from lightyears away. What stops SW from simply destroying all of ST's capital planets in a matter of days with Centerpoint?

"an entire universe?"

more coming later...

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101

So the ST manual is a single figure for all ships? That'd be no. If you want canon use your eyes. It clearly obvious that ST ships are vastly more manueverable and have a far longer range.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

As the title implies, it's a quick read and shows just how superior SW ships are.

Originally posted by jaden101

Do you have any clue what phased weapons are? They phase out of normal space/time and so bypass any kind of shielding or armour. Does SW have anything to counter this at all?

Actually they do. Clearly many species have had weapons that have killed Borg drones and ships. Power magnitude has nothing to do with it though. It's frequency. Which is what the Borg adapt to.

How many SW ships use physical projectiles? And before you say proton torpedos, the Borg easily adapted to photon torpedos and would do so to proton torpedos just as easily. The only time "physical projectiles" were effective is when Picard used an old tommy gun on the holodeck with the safety protocols switched off. Hardly applicable is it?

First, prove that phased weapons can go through ANY shielding/armor and that it cannot be scrambled/messed up by electronics and stuff like that. Also, how often does ST actually use this?

And please explain just how resistant the Borg are to energy weapons; are they completely immune?

An Aclamator troop TRANSPORT has a shield heat dissipation of 70 trillion GW.

The Enterprise D's main phasers have the energy output of 3.6 GW.

How exactly will the Enterprise harm even a mere TROOP TRANSPORT?

Aclamator reactor power = 200 trillion GW
Enterprise D reactor power = 4 billion GW

In Star Wars, galactic travel takes a matter of hours.
It took the Voyager 7 years to cross one quadrant of the galaxy.

Not to mention that Star Wars has the industrial power of millions of worlds to draw upon.

Hewhoknowsall

(triple post, sorry)

jaden101

Do you just read the 1st sentence and then stop? Cause if you read the rest you'd see I clearly explained the differences.

Yeah. Onscreen evidence does that. The borg ships can self repair in extremely short periods of time. They have adaptive shielding and, in some cases, ablative armour. They are vastly more powerful than Star Destroyers.

A single borg cube can eliminate all life from a planet in very little time. Literally scooping entire cities off the face of the planet. It can remain fully operational even if 78% of it were totally destroyed. It can then regenerate (as i previously mentioned)

From, and get how radical a move this is, actually watching the films.

You really aren't the sharpest tool in the box are you. I was explaining what it was seeing as you quite clearly didn't have the foggiest.

The most sensible thing you've said yet. A species who's biology is resistant to almost all forms of biological or chemical weaponry. A biological based technology that when they went to war with the Borg were able to destroy 8 Borg planets in a single battle.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html

An Aclamator troop TRANSPORT has a shield heat dissipation of 70 trillion GW.
The Enterprise D's main phasers have the energy output of 3.6 GW.

How exactly will the Enterprise harm even a mere TROOP TRANSPORT?

Aclamator reactor power = 200 trillion GW
Enterprise D reactor power = 4 billion GW

In Star Wars, galactic travel takes a matter of hours.
It took the Voyager 7 years to cross one quadrant of the galaxy.

Not to mention that Star Wars has the industrial power of millions of worlds to draw upon.

jaden101

Compared to a single ship that ST has...The enterprise-D.

Not exactly a valid argument is it?

Based on what? Becaus the guy doesn't want the Borg to be able to do it. They've assimilated every technology bar a single species. Species 8472...An organic based technology. Nothing SW has is invulnerable to the Borg assimilation process.

They're called Chroniton torpedoes. You cant "mess something up" that doesn't exist in the same time as you.

The Borg will take damage to vessels and within 2 or 3 shots from any energy or explosive weapon, they will have completely adapted so that those weapons no longer have any effect at all.

I love it when people quote other people from another thread that i've already disproven. It's great.

Besides, how many times are you going to keep using the enterprise-D as somehow being the pinnacle of what the ST universe has to offer. It's a ****ing science vessel. Not a battle ship.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Compared to a single ship that ST has...The enterprise-D.

Not exactly a valid argument is it?

You're comparing a ship from SW to a ship from ST...and the SW ship is FAR FAR superior. Can you name a ship from SW that would compete with even an Aclamator troop transport? I'm pretty sure that there are that can, but I'm just wondering how far up (as in ship class) you'll have to go beyond a "troop transport" to find one.

Originally posted by jaden101

Based on what? Becaus the guy doesn't want the Borg to be able to do it. They've assimilated every technology bar a single species. Species 8472...An organic based technology. Nothing SW has is invulnerable to the Borg assimilation process.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Myths/Myths_ST.html#Borg

Originally posted by jaden101

They're called Chroniton torpedoes. You cant "mess something up" that doesn't exist in the same time as you.

And how often does ST use it?

Originally posted by jaden101

The Borg will take damage to vessels and within 2 or 3 shots from any energy or explosive weapon, they will have completely adapted so that those weapons no longer have any effect at all.

I love it when people quote other people from another thread that i've already disproven. It's great.

Besides, how many times are you going to keep using the enterprise-D as somehow being the pinnacle of what the ST universe has to offer. It's a ****ing science vessel. Not a battle ship.

See above.

Can you please disprove it then? You shouldn't just expect people to read through 23 pages of stuff.

Neither is the Aclamator TROOP TRANSPORT. And yet it isn't just vastly more powerful: it's FAR FAR FAR more powerful. 70 trillion GW shield dissipation vs 3311 GW???? The difference in that is ridiculous to the extreme.

jaden101

I'm not the one comparing one of the most powerful war ships that SW has to offer to a science and exploration vessel from ST that is nowhere near the peak that ST has to offer. Your link is trying that trick. An exceptionally weak argument.

It's akin to me comparing a species 8472 bioship to an X-wing and passing it off as a valid debate that encompasses the best both universes have to offer.

Wow...What an exceptionally stupid argument. The Borg can't assimilate a Dyson's sphere...because they haven't came acorss it yet?

That's like me saying Sidious can't kill an Ewok because he hasn't seen one.

As for saying the Hirogen can't be assimilated because they haven't been completely assimilated. What a nonsense argument. Many thousands of Hirogen have been assimilated into the collective and you see Hirogen/Borg drones regularly in Voyager. There were many on unimatrix zero alone.

So yeah, your link is complete nonsense.

Is that even relevant? They have it so it can be used in a hypothetical battle.

You're not even reading what i'm posting on this thread and it's only 3 pages in. I won't do your leg work for you. Stop being so lazy and do some reading.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm not the one comparing one of the most powerful war ships that SW has to offer to a science and exploration vessel from ST that is nowhere near the peak that ST has to offer. Your link is trying that trick. An exceptionally weak argument.

One of the most powerful war ships that SW has to offer???

More like one of the WEAKEST transport ships that SW has to offer.

Obviously you don't get the fact that the Acalamator TROOP TRANSPORT is not only just a mere troop transport, but is also old and outdated: by the Legacy of the Force series, Caedus considered Republic Era ships (like the Aclamator) to be "ancient hardware".

So actually he's putting the Enterprise against one of the weaker TRANSPORT ships...and the Aclamator is FAR FAR more powerful.

Originally posted by jaden101

It's akin to me comparing a species 8472 bioship to an X-wing and passing it off as a valid debate that encompasses the best both universes have to offer.

See above.

Originally posted by jaden101

Wow...What an exceptionally stupid argument. The Borg can't assimilate a Dyson's sphere...because they haven't came acorss it yet?

That's like me saying Sidious can't kill an Ewok because he hasn't seen one.

That's not what the site said.

Originally posted by jaden101

Is that even relevant? They have it so it can be used in a hypothetical battle.

You're not even reading what i'm posting on this thread and it's only 3 pages in. I won't do your leg work for you. Stop being so lazy and do some reading.

You fail.

You don't realize it, do you? Stop trying to bash me and make yourself look good by doing that.

The point is that an outdated troop transport is thousand/millions of times + more powerful than the Enterprise. Sure; the Enterprise isn't a battle geared ship, but neither is the Aclamator. And even if the Aclamator were a batte geared ship, the fact that it's MILLIONS of times stronger is still overwhelming. An armed exploration vessel would not be millions of times weaker than a war ship if technology were equal/anywhere near on par. A car is not millions of times less durable than a tank. Now a bronze/stone age wagon IS probably at/close to millions of times less durable than a battleship.

jaden101

Yes, it clearly is.

The acclamator class is actually an assault ship. So to claim it's solely a transport ship and not a war ship is, quite frankly, lying. Where as the Enterprise-D is a science vessell with some low powered weaponry and defences.

To put any vessel from Star Wars against something from the upper regions of power from Star Trek and the SW ship gets whupped.

We'll go back to my points.

Doesn't SW have any answer to the following weapons.

Chroniton torpedos (as previously mentioned)
Transphasic torpedos (which work similar to above mentioned)
Phased Polaron Cannon.
Polaron Torpedos
Thaleron Radiation superweapon (On the Reman Scimitar)
Phased Plasma Torpedos
Isokinetic Cannon
Multikinetic neutronic mines of some 5 million isoton yield (a 54 isoton weapon can destroy a planet). The mine itself can affect entire star systems.
The Dreadnaught missle. A fully independant AI, warp 9 capable WMD capable of destroying a planet.
Q-guns. Weapons which have the outward appearance of an American civil war rifle but in reality actually fire Supernovae level explosions.

Come back to me when you have an answer for any of those.

Or even for the fact that all ST ships would need to do is transport a high powered torpedo straight onto the bridge of every SW ship.

Hewhoknowsall

Chroniton torpedos - doesn't have an answer as far as I know
Transphasic torpedos - see above
Phased Polaron Cannon - what's so special about it?
Polaron torpedos - what's so special about it?
Heck, most of these are simply very powerful (by ST standards) weapons, or maybe not...it would've been nice if you were to describe what's so special about each of them.

As for those that do matter that I haven't covered:

planet/star/solar system killers - SW has them too

Q-guns - Since the Q race is omnipotent/near omnipotent, they aren't allowed, so therefore we shouldn't allow their technology either.

Also: I just remembered that it's possible for the extremely advanced ST factions, such as the 31st century ones, may surpass SW in tech, however the majority of what is actually reguarly shown is still not at SW level.

jaden101

Both render shields useless by bypassing them.

Some aren't so much powerful in terms of yield but in terms of technology they can circumvent SW tech. (They also show that ST species have a far more advanced grasp of physics as they are displaying technology that can go outside of space and time with regards to temporal and phasing weapons....Something SW, to my knowledge hasn't even briefly flirted with...Perhaps you can show something to the contrary)

I did, however, figure that expecting you to do even a tiny bit of searching regarding those weapons would be futile though.

Multi kinetic nuetronic mines. A single weapon that can destroy on a scale that nothing in SW has come close to. Same with the Q-guns, the Omega particle and several other weapons.

This is a completely irrelevant point. We're not dismissing weapons just because they aren't featured often. That's not how these debates work. If it was then you could say that you only see the death star destroying 1 planet and so you can't count it as a regular weapon.

So again, for the 3rd time, how often it's used cannot be used as a reason to discount it.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101

Multi kinetic nuetronic mines. A single weapon that can destroy on a scale that nothing in SW has come close to. Same with the Q-guns, the Omega particle and several other weapons.

According to your post, it can "affect" (to what degree?) solar systems. SW has this too however in the form of the Sun Crusher, which can destroy a solar system.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
According to your post, it can "affect" (to what degree?) solar systems. SW has this too however in the form of the Sun Crusher, which can destroy a solar system.

It's blast wave can destroy planets up to 5 light years away.

Given that compared to our solar system, Pluto is 5.46 light hours from earth that gives an area some 8000 times larger than our solar system. More than the distance between Earth and the nearest star that is not our own sun.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
It's blast wave can destroy planets up to 5 light years away.

Given that compared to our solar system, Pluto is 5.46 light hours from earth that gives an area some 8000 times larger than our solar system. More than the distance between Earth and the nearest star that is not our own sun.

Centerpoint station can destroy and even MOVE planets/stars from hyperspace to the point in which the Confederation when they had the weapon (and it was on Corellia) was stated to be capable of destroying Coruscant if it wanted to, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) they would've have it not been destroyed.

Although I don't know the exact distance between the two worlds, they are located in different sectors (which consisted of, in Corellian Sector's case, 24 systems), which can assume that they were quite a bit more than 5 light years apart.

The Galaxy Gun could launch planet destroying shells into hyperspace, so it could basically strike at any of ST's planets from thousands of light years away.

Using the Star Forge, SW could theoretically use the Star Forge's basically unlimited production capabilities to produce entire fleets of these superweapons, and then use them to blow up every major world belonging to the ST races.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Centerpoint station can destroy and even MOVE planets/stars from hyperspace to the point in which the Confederation when they had the weapon (and it was on Corellia) was stated to be capable of destroying Coruscant if it wanted to, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) they would've have it not been destroyed.

Although I don't know the exact distance between the two worlds, they are located in different sectors (which consisted of, in Corellian Sector's case, 24 systems), which can assume that they were quite a bit more than 5 light years apart.

The Galaxy Gun could launch planet destroying shells into hyperspace, so it could basically strike at any of ST's planets from thousands of light years away.

Using the Star Forge, SW could theoretically use the Star Forge's basically unlimited production capabilities to produce entire fleets of these superweapons, and then use them to blow up every major world belonging to the ST races.

The Borg could utilse Transwarp to deliver MKNM to every part of the galaxy.

Reading up on the Sun Crusher, though. It can only fire it's resonance torpedos at sublight speed can it not? (according to it's wookipedia page anyway)

It also seems to work on the same principle as the trilithium torpedo in that it destabilises a sun and causes it to go supernova. I'm sure doan_m described that weapon as only useful in limited scale.

Granted, the star forge is a useful tool. It would need to be going somewhat to take a fleet from a few thousand to hundreds of billions in a short space of time to equal the Borg fleet though.

I also believe that centerpoint station was never designed as a weapon. Was it even ever used to destroy planets or suns? I know it was used on a few fleets of ships...Hardly in the same level of power as destroying 5 lightyears of space, though.

The Galaxy gun could be useful though, although it's projectile weapon doesn't impact planets at hyperspace velocity. It just enters the local space and then uses AI to guide it to it's target. Giving a chance for it to be destroyed.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
The Borg could utilse Transwarp to deliver MKNM to every part of the galaxy.

Right, but the vessels that they use could be destroyed.

Also, please explain exactly how fast Transwarp can go.

Originally posted by jaden101

Reading up on the Sun Crusher, though. It can only fire it's resonance torpedos at sublight speed can it not? (according to it's wookipedia page anyway)

I believe that's true, but it can still destroy solar systems, which is impressive to say the least.

Originally posted by jaden101

It also seems to work on the same principle as the trilithium torpedo in that it destabilises a sun and causes it to go supernova. I'm sure doan_m described that weapon as only useful in limited scale.

If it's very useful, then...well, it's very useful.

If it's not very useful, then that means that the trilithium torpedo isn't either.

Originally posted by jaden101

Granted, the star forge is a useful tool. It would need to be going somewhat to take a fleet from a few thousand to hundreds of billions in a short space of time to equal the Borg fleet though.

Again, define "vessels". And no, it wouldn't take hundreds of billions of Galaxy Guns to equal hundreds of billions of borg cubes because galaxy gun >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> borg cube.

Originally posted by jaden101

I also believe that centerpoint station was never designed as a weapon. Was it even ever used to destroy planets or suns? I know it was used on a few fleets of ships...Hardly in the same level of power as destroying 5 lightyears of space, though.

The Galaxy gun could be useful though, although it's projectile weapon doesn't impact planets at hyperspace velocity. It just enters the local space and then uses AI to guide it to it's target. Giving a chance for it to be destroyed.

I don't remember it actually destroying a planet, however that dude that was apparently in charge (or at least highly ranked/infuential) in the Confederation considered (and, I believe, might have actually tried...I have Star Wars: Legacy of the Force Fury, but don't want to get it out just now) destroying Coruscant, so this means that it is capable of doing so.

Also, by moving a planet you could very well destroy it, aka by moving it into a star/a black hole.

Originally posted by jaden101

The Galaxy gun could be useful though, although it's projectile weapon doesn't impact planets at hyperspace velocity. It just enters the local space and then uses AI to guide it to it's target. Giving a chance for it to be destroyed.

Wookiepedia says that even Kuat V-200 ion cannons, which according to Wookiepedia were supposedly able to penetrate any known shields, were unable to penetrate the projectile, showing that the projectile wasn't exactly unprotected.

Overall, SW could simply use the Galaxy Gun/Centerpoint Station to destroy all of the capital planets/major planets of Star Trek.

jaden101

Destroyed by?

Hyperdrive can allow a ship to cross the entire 100,000 light year galaxy (both the SW and ST galaxies are the same size) in a matter of a few weeks to a couple of months depending on the power...Transwarp can deploy a ship across the galaxy in a few minutes.

Indeed. I'd like to see them put some of these superweapons into the film/animated medium.

Hence the reason i never really listen the trilithium torpedo until comparing it to the sun crusher's usefulness. It can only destroy the area surrounding a star. The vast majority of space doesn't fall into solar systems surrounding space and so the only way either weapon would be effective against fleets of enemy ships is if those ships were in solar systems surrounding planets.

The galaxy gun would be pretty useless against a Borg cube though as the calculations hit a target travelling at transwarp speeds are clearly outwith SW tech abilities (given they have nothing that even approaches that level of speed)

So 1 Borg cube could probably destroy many galaxy guns without being taken out.

So blowing up planets is all well and good. It doesn't effect the hundreds of billions of Borg ships. The MKNM, on the other hand, can be deployed anywhere as it doesn't rely on targetting stars or planets.

Again...Phased weapons...impossible to stop as they can bypass shields or armour by going outside it's space/time...entering the target and them re-enter the space/time inside the target.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Destroyed by?

The vessels that carry these torpedos (or do the torpedos themselves move at FTL speeds?) can be destroyed.

Originally posted by jaden101

Hyperdrive can allow a ship to cross the entire 100,000 light year galaxy (both the SW and ST galaxies are the same size) in a matter of a few weeks to a couple of months depending on the power...Transwarp can deploy a ship across the galaxy in a few minutes.

According to/implied by some sources that I checked (Memory Alpha, Stardestroyer.net), it seems to have a limited time/can only be sustained for a short amount of time.

Originally posted by jaden101

Indeed. I'd like to see them put some of these superweapons into the film/animated medium.

Hence the reason i never really listen the trilithium torpedo until comparing it to the sun crusher's usefulness. It can only destroy the area surrounding a star. The vast majority of space doesn't fall into solar systems surrounding space and so the only way either weapon would be effective against fleets of enemy ships is if those ships were in solar systems surrounding planets.

The galaxy gun would be pretty useless against a Borg cube though as the calculations hit a target travelling at transwarp speeds are clearly outwith SW tech abilities (given they have nothing that even approaches that level of speed)

So 1 Borg cube could probably destroy many galaxy guns without being taken out.

So blowing up planets is all well and good. It doesn't effect the hundreds of billions of Borg ships. The MKNM, on the other hand, can be deployed anywhere as it doesn't rely on targetting stars or planets.

Again...Phased weapons...impossible to stop as they can bypass shields or armour by going outside it's space/time...entering the target and them re-enter the space/time inside the target.

Yeah, that would be cool

Well, that's debatable.

Unlikely that a borg cube could outmatch a Galaxy Gun in direct combat.

So why does ST still use armor? Wouldn't phased weapons render them obsolete?

Anyway, this is the plan:

Use Star Forge to build lots of Galaxy Guns.

Use the Galaxy Guns to shoot at each of the major planets.

Are phased weapons common/cheap enough to be deployed at every major planet? If not, then just use Centerpoint.

Hewhoknowsall

edit: please diregard the 3rd line of mine, I'm misread wookiepedia.

and in the last line, I mean if SO, not if not.

jaden101

Almost all torpedos in ST can be fired at impulse or warp.

What's going to destroy the ships? Borg or Species 8472 ships, for example.

It only needs to though. They deploy ships across the entire galaxy in a couple of minutes. Any longer and they'd be outside the galaxy and into open space. Which brings up something else regarding the enterprise-D travelling so fast it went out it's own galaxy and passed through 2 others before stopping and only took about a minute to do so...Or when a shuttle on Voyager hit warp 10 (which meant infinite speed meaning for a fraction of a second it was at all places in the universe at the same time)

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Almost all torpedos in ST can be fired at impulse or warp.

What's going to destroy the ships? Borg or Species 8472 ships, for example.

It only needs to though. They deploy ships across the entire galaxy in a couple of minutes. Any longer and they'd be outside the galaxy and into open space. Which brings up something else regarding the enterprise-D travelling so fast it went out it's own galaxy and passed through 2 others before stopping and only took about a minute to do so...Or when a shuttle on Voyager hit warp 10 (which meant infinite speed meaning for a fraction of a second it was at all places in the universe at the same time)

K, but SW still has the advantage in that, if you were to have a battle of Superweapon, SW only has to destroy a few of ST's major worlds whereas SW's VASTLY larger amount of worlds means that ST will have to destroy a lot more worlds. Not to mention that SW has better ship weapons and such, so a conventional war would go to SW.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
The vessels that carry these torpedos (or do the torpedos themselves move at FTL speeds?) can be destroyed.

According to/implied by some sources that I checked (Memory Alpha, Stardestroyer.net), it seems to have a limited time/can only be sustained for a short amount of time.

Yeah, that would be cool

Well, that's debatable.

Unlikely that a borg cube could outmatch a Galaxy Gun in direct combat.

So why does ST still use armor? Wouldn't phased weapons render them obsolete?

Anyway, this is the plan:

Use Star Forge to build lots of Galaxy Guns.

Use the Galaxy Guns to shoot at each of the major planets.

Are phased weapons common/cheap enough to be deployed at every major planet? If not, then just use Centerpoint.

Your point of are they cheap enough isn't really relevant given that many ST species don't use currency (The federation being one).

Common enough is, again, not applicable. They can simply replicate more and more (given that almost all species have replicators they could effectively replicate trillions of them every second for use in war)

I think we're delving into pedantry though. The debate is about who's tech is superior. Not who can hypothetically make more. Where does the debate stop? The star forge making more mini star forges? and other such non canon and completely speculative ideas?

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Your point of are they cheap enough isn't really relevant given that many ST species don't use currency (The federation being one).

Common enough is, again, not applicable. They can simply replicate more and more (given that almost all species have replicators they could effectively replicate trillions of them every second for use in war)

I think we're delving into pedantry though. The debate is about who's tech is superior. Not who can hypothetically make more. Where does the debate stop? The star forge making more mini star forges? and other such non canon and completely speculative ideas?

By "cheap" I mean how fast you can build it/the resources required.

Are phased weapons very common or are they rather hard to make?

And replicators can't instantly just replicate ANYTHING in any quantity, otherwise Starfleet should've had a MUCH larger fleet.

The debate is about who would win in a war in Star Wars vs Star Trek, Lord of the Rings and Battlestar Galactica, no omnipotents/near omnipotents are allowed. Having LOTR in was basically a joke, as they are a non factor, and now we're for some reason forgetting about Battlestar and just focusing on the big 2 sci fi universes because the debate between the two is very heated...

Robtard

Hewhoknowsnothingofstartrek,

Here's a small list of ST weapons, since you're asking Jaden to constantly explain what they can do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_in_Star_Trek

The Scimitar with its cloak and Thalaron discharge could kill an entire SW fleet and the Deathstar, this is just one ship.

Robtard

Not sure if anyone's brought this up. But going from the movies, those Stardestroyers miss a lot. While ST ships tend to hit their targets, but are countered/absorbed by shielding and or armour.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
Hewhoknowsnothingofstartrek,

Here's a small list of ST weapons, since you're asking Jaden to constantly explain what they can do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_in_Star_Trek

The Scimitar with its cloak and Thalaron discharge could kill an entire SW fleet and the Deathstar, this is just one ship.

???

I read over it, and some of it look pretty impressive, but not enough to constitute a win.

Galaxy Gun destroys Earth/other major planets of ST.

The end.

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
???

I read over it, and some of it look pretty impressive, but not enough to constitute a win.

Galaxy Gun destroys Earth/other major planets of ST.

The end.

Again, you're betting all your chips on a one-trick pony. That weapon isn't indestructible, the ST universe has potentially hundreds of thousands of worlds.

The Scimitar mentioned above could come at it cloaked, uncloak behind it and kill everyone inside in seconds, with it's radiation weapon.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Galaxy Gun destroys Earth/other major planets of ST.

Did you not read it the 1st time?

Destroying planets doesn't affect the ST universes battle capabilities because most of it is in space anyway. Besides how to you aim for and hit a planet you can't see givin that ST has the ability to cloak entire planets?

Strawman argument. Besides industrial sized replicators have been seen anyway. Used specifically for making large engine components etc. So yes, weapons can be replicated.

So a clone's rifle is the same as Han's blaster now? How do you explain Leia taking a direct hit and receiving nothing but a graze on her arm?

A low power federation phaser (the small hand units as opposed to the larger, more powerful rifle) can blast through 10 feet of solid rock...Bit more impressive than a few inches of metal

I take it you're referring to the incident with species 8472? Bit of an odd argument given that the ship that was destroyed had already taken massive damage in an attack from a species 8472 bioship and was left without shields or propulsion.

Do SW employ projectile based hand held weaponry? Is it known that the Borg suffer losses from most weapons before analysing and adapting and is it therefor reasonable to assume that had Picard tried that trick again, the Borg would have adapted

I wouldn't be taking the ST manual as an infallible source of information. It states that Breen hand held weapons have only kill settings but several times in DS9, people take direct hits from them and survive.

I've cited tons of examples of ST weapons that you've had no counter argument against. Start showing me what SW would do to counter those weapons and perhaps you'll be onto a more plausible argument. I've already PROVEN that the Borg can adapt to weapons by frequency regardless of power. Have you shown how SW would prevent being hit by phased weapons? Have you countered the fact that weakest federation torpedo (the photon) is more powerful than the most powerful nuclear weapon ever.

Certainly. In Q-who (next generation) the Borg used transporters that passed straight through the shields of the enterprise.

In DS9 episode "the Jem'Hadar" the Dominion had transporters that passed straight through shielding.

Bit of a silly argument, most of them eh?

Yes, we all know the Borg consist of assimilated Species that had males and females. Are these genders utilised within the species or are they bypassed by cybornetic implants. Well we know they use birthing chambers and not natural pregnancies. Regardless...What actually is the argument he's trying to make on that point anyway?

He then argues that the Borg can't adapt to any weapon despite the fact that they clearly assimilated Hirogen, Klingon and many other species (clearly indicating that they've easily adapted to their weapons in order to assimilate them). Not to mention the fact that it's mentioned countless time that they can adapt to any weapon.

The point about the tractor beam? So what if it can only be used at short range. The whole point of it's use isn't as a weapon but as a means to stop and allow for the assimilation of ships. Not to destroy them (Pretty self explanatory why it wouldn't be used IN A BATTLE then isn't it)

The vast majority of the rest of the points are completely irrelevant to this debate.

Makes my point stand even more doesn't it?

I'd say someone who makes his living smuggling things across the galaxy and avoiding the empire would know them well enough.

Lets go back to the quote "The entire star fleet couldn'f destroy the whole planet"...Yet 9 small species 8472 bioships could. And there's an entire universe of them to put into the fight.

They were made before the clone wars and were lost in hyperspace on their 1st voyage. So how it could have been outfitted? Oh and my mistake. It wasn't 500 ships...It was 200.

There's no mention of the mechanism that species 8472 employ in their weapons so making baseless assumptions is silly.

You have zero proof of this. We've seen an imperial star destroyer being incapable of destroying the millenium falcon, which is effectively a piece of junk.

We've seen areas of ships take direct impacts from turbolasers which have only caused minor explosions in hanger decks etc.

We've also seen a fully armed SD take an impact from a small asteroid that has sheered of and destroyed a huge chunk of the ship.

The 1st death star was already well into construction when Luke and Leia were born but wasn't operational until they were fully grown up. Your time lines are WAY OFF.

Evidently nowhere near as quickly as the Dominion. Which was my point.

No...seeing as i've already shown a minor phaser shot is far more powerful than SW rifles. I've not even mentioned the transporter rifle which fires a projectile and then transports it to either inside an enemy target or just outside ready for impact...in other words, unstoppable. And this is just the federation weapons.

Biological cloaks? Don't think they've even sniffed that kind of technology before.

You were the one who said "i won't go into specifics". In regards to countering my points, you still haven't done so...Please do.

Also read the thread. You'll like it.

The federation, the Borg and the Voth all have transwarp drive, The Borg also have the transwarp hubs. Transwarp isn't a specific technology but merely a piece of terminology to indicate in advance beyond warp technology. The entire Borg fleet utilises it. Only a small number of Federation ships had utilised it (including one that reached infinite velocity). Unsure about the Voth though.

You do realise BDZ is the bombardment of a planet and can take an entire fleet days to do it? In many cases people have escaped planets under BDZ bombardment. Can you see them doing the same to an attack by species 8472?

By a weapon that SW can manufacture?

You're thinking of a "phaser"...Not a "phased" weapon...Difference....Idiot.

Are you deliberately being obtuse? Shields don't work on weapons that phase out of space/time because the weapons don't exist on the same plane of existence as the shields until they rematerialse at their target. It's not difficult to grasp.

The relevance of frequencies is how the Borg adapt to direct energy weapons. It's mentioned countless times in ST and it's why the Federation alternate phaser frequency to make them (slightly) more effective. So no. It has nothing to do with bypassing shields. The Borg have several other weapons for doing that.

Again, you have no evidence for what it is about species 8472 weapons that makes the Borg succeptible to them. It may have nothing to do with magnitude. Even if it does, it's quite clear that the magnitude of their weapons far outstrips anything the SW universe has and so they would win on their own.

Raw power is completely ineffective against ablative armour. Still haven't answered that point (or any of the others i've made)

Keep trying son.

Hewhoknowsall

Jaden101, you are ignoring the fact that an old Aclamator ship has BILLIONS of times the shielding and hundreds of thousands of times the firepower of the Enterprise D.

And Star Wars DOES have projectile weapons, they're called slugthrowers. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower

And first of all, prove that ST will be able to cloak every major planet in time, and even then SW will still be able to use life detecting sensors to find the planets.

Also, the book Star Wars: Death Star at one point mentions replicators, which suggests that Star Wars has them too.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Jaden101, you are ignoring the fact that an old Aclamator ship has BILLIONS of times the shielding and hundreds of thousands of times the firepower of the Enterprise D.

And Star Wars DOES have projectile weapons, they're called slugthrowers. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower

And first of all, prove that ST will be able to cloak every major planet in time, and even then SW will still be able to use life detecting sensors to find the planets.

Also, the book Star Wars: Death Star at one point mentions replicators, which suggests that Star Wars has them too.

I'm ignoring the fact that you keep trying to use the enterprise D as somehow the best that ST has to offer.

Big deal. It has projectile weapons. They're still useless against Borg shields. Given that we know Borg ship shields adapt to projectile weapons then it's safe to assume Borg personal shields do too.

If you can use hyperbole arguments with no basis in canon such as that star forge can produce thousands of galaxy guns then I can just as easily say that every planet in the ST universe can have a cloak (which hides life signs...one of the actual points of having a cloak in the 1st place)

Well done, they have replicators...Care to elaborate on what they're used for?

Do they have transporters that can be used for tactical deployment of weapons or troops
?
Do they have time and space warping weapons?

Do they have weapons that can destroy everything in a radius of 5 light years?

Do they have fleets of ships that can destroy planets in seconds?

1 ST race would wreak havoc on the SW universe. The Krenim with their time ship. They could simply go back to when each and every deadly weapon that the SW univserse has to put into battle and change the events so it never exists in the 1st place.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm ignoring the fact that you keep trying to use the enterprise D as somehow the best that ST has to offer.

I'm not, but the Aclamator isn't either. They are both rather low level ships, and the Aclamator is MILLIONS of times more powerful.

Originally posted by jaden101

Big deal. It has projectile weapons. They're still useless against Borg shields. Given that we know Borg ship shields adapt to projectile weapons then it's safe to assume Borg personal shields do too.

Prove that the Borg can adapt to anything. If Galactus were to come, could they adapt to his Power Cosmic?
Originally posted by jaden101

If you can use hyperbole arguments with no basis in canon such as that star forge can produce thousands of galaxy guns then I can just as easily say that every planet in the ST universe can have a cloak (which hides life signs...one of the actual points of having a cloak in the 1st place)

wtf? How is that a hyperbole argument? It's true that the Star Forge can use raw resources from the Sun to produce a nearly unlimited amount of items, so why not apply that to the Galaxy Gun?

Originally posted by jaden101

Well done, they have replicators...Care to elaborate on what they're used for?

It is never specified.

Originally posted by jaden101

Do they have transporters that can be used for tactical deployment of weapons or troops

No. Does Star Trek have blasters that can blow a half meter hole in solid (forgot material) from 10 KILOMETERS away? Besides, transporters are easily messed up by stuff.

Originally posted by jaden101

Do they have time and space warping weapons?

No. Does Star Trek have the Force?

Originally posted by jaden101

Do they have fleets of ships that can destroy planets in seconds?

No, but with the Star Forge they can make a fleet of Galaxy Guns.

Wait...they had a fleet of World Devastators, which not only destroys planets but drains their energy/resources so that they can be used for stuff, so yes, they do.

Does Star Trek have a ship with guns that have the energy of millions of gigawatts?

Originally posted by jaden101

1 ST race would wreak havoc on the SW universe. The Krenim with their time ship. They could simply go back to when each and every deadly weapon that the SW univserse has to put into battle and change the events so it never exists in the 1st place.

Getting desperate, aren't you?

jaden101

The Acclamator is a war ship. The enterpise is a science and exploration ship. Bit silly to even compare them in the 1st place.

Even then the enterprise would still win because it can hit the acclamator at 10 times distance meaning it would never get touched in the 1st place.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/VisAid/weaponrange.jpg

That's an image of 1st class canon ranges of the OLD enterprise against a new star destroyer.

And i'm the one getting desperate?

Did it churn out galaxy guns? No

So it's a hyperbolic argument. You're asking me if certain weapons were prolific within the ST universe...Was the galaxy gun?...No. Hence if I was to apply the same logic then as you are saying there could be thousands of galaxy guns then I can counter that with the same logic and say that the ST universe can cloak every planet.

Hahahahahaa..."messed up by stuff"?...Do you care to elaborate on your rock solid argument?

And yes. Star trek has phasers than have realigned tectonic plates and burrowed to the cores of planets from orbit. It has hand held weapons that have burrowed through 10's of feet of solid rock (low powered weapons at that)

Wait..I positive I asked if they had fleets of ships that could destroy a world IN SECONDS.

From the world devastators wooki page.

So...uuuhhh...Your real answer is "no".

Evidently it does given that it has ships which destroy planets in seconds (which takes fleets of star destroyers days just to melt the surface of a planet and not completely obliterate it)

I do love how you get your figures from stardestroyer.net which makes some utterly baseless and contradictory claims of the power of turbolasers based on a star destroyer shooting some asteroids. Saying they must be made of iron because of their "rusty red" appearance, not taking into the fact that iron requires oxygen to rust and there isn't any oxygen in space.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
The Acclamator is a war ship. The enterpise is a science and exploration ship. Bit silly to even compare them in the 1st place.

Even then the enterprise would still win because it can hit the acclamator at 10 times distance meaning it would never get touched in the 1st place.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/VisAid/weaponrange.jpg

That's an image of 1st class canon ranges of the OLD enterprise against a new star destroyer.

"Even then the Enterprise would still win..."

laughing

An Aclamator class ship has a heat dissipation of 70 trillion GW
Enterprise's main phasers have only produce 3.6 GW

How exactly will the Enterprise scratch an Aclamator?

Not to mention that the Aclamator contains fighters and such.

And what evidence was used to determine the ranges?

Originally posted by jaden101

And i'm the one getting desperate?

No, you're making an unsupported claim that the Borg can adapt to any weapon that it gets fired upon with.

Originally posted by jaden101

Did it churn out galaxy guns? No

So it's a hyperbolic argument. You're asking me if certain weapons were prolific within the ST universe...Was the galaxy gun?...No. Hence if I was to apply the same logic then as you are saying there could be thousands of galaxy guns then I can counter that with the same logic and say that the ST universe can cloak every planet.

So it has to have actually churned out Galaxy Guns for it to be able to?

In that case, Star Trek ships can't even harm Star Wars ships because they never did!

Originally posted by jaden101

Hahahahahaa..."messed up by stuff"?...Do you care to elaborate on your rock solid argument?

And yes. Star trek has phasers than have realigned tectonic plates and burrowed to the cores of planets from orbit. It has hand held weapons that have burrowed through 10's of feet of solid rock (low powered weapons at that)

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Special/Special1.html

The accuracy and range of these guns are not on par though.

Originally posted by jaden101

Wait..I positive I asked if they had fleets of ships that could destroy a world IN SECONDS.

From the world devastators wooki page.

So...uuuhhh...Your real answer is "no".

Evidently it does given that it has ships which destroy planets in seconds (which takes fleets of star destroyers days just to melt the surface of a planet and not completely obliterate it)

I do love how you get your figures from stardestroyer.net which makes some utterly baseless and contradictory claims of the power of turbolasers based on a star destroyer shooting some asteroids. Saying they must be made of iron because of their "rusty red" appearance, not taking into the fact that iron requires oxygen to rust and there isn't any oxygen in space.

It makes up for that with the fact that it drains resources that can be used by SW.

jaden101

Have you not been paying attention...I'll say it again

PHASED WEAPONS...THEY....BYPASS....THE...SHIELDS....ALTOGETHER.

So it doesn't matter how powerful the shields are because the weapons exist outside the shields space and time until they are INSIDE THE SHIELDS.

All the Enterprise would have to do is stay outside the SD's firing range and launch a couple of phased torpedos and it's bye-bye star destroyer.

The figures are from both stated and shown in the films/tv shows.

And you're the one trying to disprove the point by introducing a God like being (something you disallowed in your OP) from an entirely different franchise into the argument. Shall we stick to SW v ST and bring in God like being...ala Q and the Douwd?

So every star trek planet can't have cloaks because they weren't all shown to?

See how your argument works?

And vice versa. If you want to employ your idiot logic.

Care to use a non biased website or do you still insist on using a reference i've already proven to blatently lie?

So what makes up for the fact that in the (say 3) months it takes to destroy a single planet, that species 8472 could destroy (by my simple calculations based on based on 10 seconds per destruction of planet)...some 762,000 planets

What also makes up for the fact that in the months it's taking to destroy a planet, the world devastator itself would be easily destroyed?

jaden101

A few choice nuggets from the other thread (seeing as i said i would get them)

Then there's the last post on this page

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=499313&pagenumber=9

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Have you not been paying attention...I'll say it again

PHASED WEAPONS...THEY....BYPASS....THE...SHIELDS....ALTOGETHER.

So it doesn't matter how powerful the shields are because the weapons exist outside the shields space and time until they are INSIDE THE SHIELDS.

All the Enterprise would have to do is stay outside the SD's firing range and launch a couple of phased torpedos and it's bye-bye star destroyer.

The figures are from both stated and shown in the films/tv shows.

I have a strange feeling that you are not telling the complete truth. Wouldn't have these phased torpedos have rendered armor and shielding obsolete?

Originally posted by jaden101

And you're the one trying to disprove the point by introducing a God like being (something you disallowed in your OP) from an entirely different franchise into the argument. Shall we stick to SW v ST and bring in God like being...ala Q and the Douwd?

My point is that the Borg's assimilation/adaption abilities have limits.

Originally posted by jaden101

So every star trek planet can't have cloaks because they weren't all shown to?

See how your argument works?

I never said that they don't. I ASKED you if they were capable of cloaking every major planet before SW can detect them.

And no, the examples are different. If they could easily cloak every planet, then why didn't they do that when an enemy force was coming every time? On the other hand, the Star Forge was destroyed quite a while before the Galaxy Gun was invented, so they couldn't have done that.

Originally posted by jaden101

And vice versa. If you want to employ your idiot logic.

Care to use a non biased website or do you still insist on using a reference i've already proven to blatently lie?

So what makes up for the fact that in the (say 3) months it takes to destroy a single planet, that species 8472 could destroy (by my simple calculations based on based on 10 seconds per destruction of planet)...some 762,000 planets

What also makes up for the fact that in the months it's taking to destroy a planet, the world devastator itself would be easily destroyed?

I was using YOUR logic.

Stop trying to discredit a website simply because it's biased. You're biased too, so does that mean that everything that you say is wrong?

If you assume that they can magically travel to, appear in front of and fire at a planet instantly and continuously to this without being fired upon, yes.

No, world devastators are very well protected.

Originally posted by jaden101
A few choice nuggets from the other thread (seeing as i said i would get them)

Then there's the last post on this page

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=499313&pagenumber=9

And what were the responses/rebuttals to those quotes?

jaden101

There you go, son.

So far the only species they've been unable to assimilate is species 8472.

I don't believe there's anything to suggest anything in SW in on their level. Biologically, the Borg consider them the apex of evolution.

Which was my point. We're either using the technology from all eras of each universe (meaning that technology from all the timelines can be combined in theoretical applications and uses) or we're using only the way these technologies were applied and shown in canon...i.e one galaxy gun...1 star forge making whatever ships it made. the canon number of ships mentioned...etc.

How am I biased? I've already blatently admitted I actually prefer STAR WARS over star trek. I just recognise that ST has far more advanced and powerful technology and weapons.

Even if they were fired upon, what's going to damage them? Nothing SW has shown could even hope to scratch one of their bioships.

Is this just another random statement that you hope is fact and that I won't know about?

They were destroyed by a simple computer virus (something that ST have employed a number of times) Stands to reason they'd manage to do it to them without having to use weapons.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
There you go, son.

So, can you show me a source that talks about these phased weapons?

Originally posted by jaden101

So far the only species they've been unable to assimilate is species 8472.

I don't believe there's anything to suggest anything in SW in on their level. Biologically, the Borg consider them the apex of evolution.

I've already showed you a link that talks about this, it's not that long, you can just skim over it.

Originally posted by jaden101

Which was my point. We're either using the technology from all eras of each universe (meaning that technology from all the timelines can be combined in theoretical applications and uses) or we're using only the way these technologies were applied and shown in canon...i.e one galaxy gun...1 star forge making whatever ships it made. the canon number of ships mentioned...etc.

Well, I don't think that we should allow in alternate timelines, aren't there an infinite amount of them?

Originally posted by jaden101

How am I biased? I've already blatently admitted I actually prefer STAR WARS over star trek. I just recognise that ST has far more advanced and powerful technology and weapons.

And Michael Wong stated that he liked both SW and ST. He simply likes SW a little more and recognizes that they're superior in war tech.

Originally posted by jaden101

Even if they were fired upon, what's going to damage them? Nothing SW has shown could even hope to scratch one of their bioships.

And you get this from...

Originally posted by jaden101

Is this just another random statement that you hope is fact and that I won't know about?

They were destroyed by a simple computer virus (something that ST have employed a number of times) Stands to reason they'd manage to do it to them without having to use weapons.

By a computer virus yes, but ST will have to have a powerful enough computer virus and figure out a way to download it into the world devastators without getting blown to bits.

jaden101

I already linked to the chroniton torpedo article.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Phased_polaron_beam

There's one for the phased polaron beam.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Phased_plasma_torpedo

Phased plasma torpedo.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transphasic_torpedo

Transphasic torpedo.

Is it annoying when people ignore your links?

I'm not talking about using alternative timelines. I'm talking about using technology from all throughout each respective universes time span at once and combining the tech abilities. (Which is what you were doing by saying to use the star forge to make galaxy guns). I simply employed the same type of argument to the ST universe in saying that if you could do that then ST should be allowed to have all planets cloaked (because the tech exists to cloak planets)

And he's wrong. Just because he has a website doesn't mean it's full of facts and credible information.

Onscreen feats. I've seen a turbolaser hit an unshielded hanger deck and cause a minor explosion. How this equates to millions of gigawatts or gigatons of whatever other nonsense you wish to try and employ is beyond me.

Which brings up another point. You only need to look at the battle of corascant to see what ranges the SW ships fight at. ST ships fight at warp over far longer distances.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
I already linked to the chroniton torpedo article.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Phased_polaron_beam

There's one for the phased polaron beam.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Phased_plasma_torpedo

Phased plasma torpedo.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Transphasic_torpedo

Transphasic torpedo.

K, I'll look at them.

Read first, never says anything about phasing through space-time, infact in the first sentence it says that it fires beams...

Read second, apparently only 20 were ever used, and why weren't they used again?

Read third, were delivered by alternate timeline and we aren't allowing those, plus it doesn't really talk about its destructive power.

Originally posted by jaden101
I

Is it annoying when people ignore your links?

I don't ignore your links. I just didn't like it that you expected me to scroll through 23 pages. I don't expect you to scroll through 23 pages.

Originally posted by jaden101

I'm not talking about using alternative timelines. I'm talking about using technology from all throughout each respective universes time span at once and combining the tech abilities. (Which is what you were doing by saying to use the star forge to make galaxy guns). I simply employed the same type of argument to the ST universe in saying that if you could do that then ST should be allowed to have all planets cloaked (because the tech exists to cloak planets)

What is actually shown, yes.

Originally posted by jaden101

And he's wrong. Just because he has a website doesn't mean it's full of facts and credible information.

Well I'm trying to prove that it is.

Originally posted by jaden101

Onscreen feats. I've seen a turbolaser hit an unshielded hanger deck and cause a minor explosion. How this equates to millions of gigawatts or gigatons of whatever other nonsense you wish to try and employ is beyond me.

You are making a statement without taking into account the durability of such hanger decks when no shielded.

Originally posted by jaden101

Which brings up another point. You only need to look at the battle of corascant to see what ranges the SW ships fight at. ST ships fight at warp over far longer distances.

??? And so do SW ships

Overall, Star Wars wins.

Industrial might: Star Wars has a million years worth of resources from a galaxy. Star Trek has a few thousand solar systems.

Numbers: Star Wars spans almost a million years. ST spans just a few hundred.

Ships shielding: Already discussed

Ships firepower: Already discussed

Fighters: ST rarely uses fighters

Blasters vs Phasers: Have phasers ever punched holes through durasteel-level materials from 10 kilometers away before?

Armor: ST rarely ever uses armor.

Artillery: ST never uses artillery

Armored vehicles: ST never uses armored vehicles

Superweapons: Star Forge + Galaxy Guns = victory for SW

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Overall, Star Wars wins.

You really shouldn't make such an a statement considering you have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

Industrial might: Star Wars has a million years worth of resources from a galaxy. Star Trek has a few thousand solar systems.

Numbers: Star Wars spans almost a million years. ST spans just a few hundred.

What does "millions of years worth of resources" even mean? Star Trek spans across four galactic quadrants, ie a galaxy. At least learn the basics, before you make judgements.

That is irrelevant, considering the advancements (which you continually ignore from Jaden's spost) ST has over SW. By that rational, the Roman Empire could beat the United States, they existed for about 500 years, US is under 240.

jaden101

I'm saying a turbolaser battery struggles to damage an unshielded hanger deck...Let alone a shielded (in some cases multi-regenerative shielded) starship.

You really are THAT THICK aren't you?

Time span has NOTHING to do with it. It's tech level.

Yes you've discussed shields and weapons. Unfortunately you were beaten in those discussions. You failed to address any of the weapons I talked about.

So again...Counter them point for point.

Weapons that can pass through shields because they don't exist in the same space/time

bioships that number in their thousands and potentially billions given that they have an entire universe and can destroy Borg shielded planets in seconds.

Weapons that completely dwarf in power, anything the SW has shown...namely the multikinetic neutronic mine....that can destroy an area thousands of times bigger than a solar system.

Do you have an answer for any of them? Do you have a SW equivalent for any of them that even remotely measures up to their destructive capabilities?

If not (and we both know you don't) then how can you claim that SW has superior weapons?

Yes...ST has basic phasers that have punched to the core of planets from orbit.

ST rarely uses armour? In what sense? The Borg have both ablative armour on their ships and personal shielding on the drones.

And, as someone already said in the other thread, ST EU has huge amounts of ground forces within it's EU canon.

Superweapons.

Multikinetic neutronic mine...far more powerful than anything in SW

Xindi superweapon...planet buster

species 8472 bioships...planet buster (and potentially billions of them)

Reman Scimitar's thaleron radiation weapon (can destroy all life on a planet)...The ship itself has a perfect and undetectable cloak...52 disruptor banks and large numbers of torpedo bays.

Krenim time weapon...Could wipe out all timelines that led to SW superweapons.

Are you still not going to counter these points with anything other than your blind love for SW?

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
You really shouldn't make such an a statement considering you have no idea what you're talking about.

What does "millions of years worth of resources" even mean? Star Trek spans across four galactic quadrants, ie a galaxy. At least learn the basics, before you make judgements.

That is irrelevant, considering the advancements (which you continually ignore from Jaden's spost) ST has over SW. By that rational, the Roman Empire could beat the United States, they existed for about 700 years.

Because SW exists over a million years, then, based on the parameters for this debate (which take into account ALL of each universe's history) SW has every soldier, weapon and ship over a million years.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm saying a turbolaser battery struggles to damage an unshielded hanger deck...Let alone a shielded (in some cases multi-regenerative shielded) starship.

You really are THAT THICK aren't you?

Time span has NOTHING to do with it. It's tech level.

Yes you've discussed shields and weapons. Unfortunately you were beaten in those discussions. You failed to address any of the weapons I talked about.

So again...Counter them point for point.

Weapons that can pass through shields because they don't exist in the same space/time

bioships that number in their thousands and potentially billions given that they have an entire universe and can destroy Borg shielded planets in seconds.

Weapons that completely dwarf in power, anything the SW has shown...namely the multikinetic neutronic mine....that can destroy an area thousands of times bigger than a solar system.

Do you have an answer for any of them? Do you have a SW equivalent for any of them that even remotely measures up to their destructive capabilities?

If not (and we both know you don't) then how can you claim that SW has superior weapons?

Yes...ST has basic phasers that have punched to the core of planets from orbit.

ST rarely uses armour? In what sense? The Borg have both ablative armour on their ships and personal shielding on the drones.

And, as someone already said in the other thread, ST EU has huge amounts of ground forces within it's EU canon.

Superweapons.

Multikinetic neutronic mine...far more powerful than anything in SW

Xindi superweapon...planet buster

species 8472 bioships...planet buster (and potentially billions of them)

Reman Scimitar's thaleron radiation weapon (can destroy all life on a planet)...The ship itself has a perfect and undetectable cloak...52 disruptor banks and large numbers of torpedo bays.

Krenim time weapon...Could wipe out all timelines that led to SW superweapons.

Are you still not going to counter these points with anything other than your blind love for SW?

I've already responded to a huge majority of the above multiple times already. Stop going around in circles are posting the same arguments over and over again:

Originally posted by jaden101
Yes, it clearly is.

The acclamator class is actually an assault ship. So to claim it's solely a transport ship and not a war ship is, quite frankly, lying. Where as the Enterprise-D is a science vessell with some low powered weaponry and defences.

To put any vessel from Star Wars against something from the upper regions of power from Star Trek and the SW ship gets whupped.

We'll go back to my points.

Doesn't SW have any answer to the following weapons.

Chroniton torpedos (as previously mentioned)
Transphasic torpedos (which work similar to above mentioned)
Phased Polaron Cannon.
Polaron Torpedos
Thaleron Radiation superweapon (On the Reman Scimitar)
Phased Plasma Torpedos
Isokinetic Cannon
Multikinetic neutronic mines of some 5 million isoton yield (a 54 isoton weapon can destroy a planet). The mine itself can affect entire star systems.
The Dreadnaught missle. A fully independant AI, warp 9 capable WMD capable of destroying a planet.
Q-guns. Weapons which have the outward appearance of an American civil war rifle but in reality actually fire Supernovae level explosions.

Come back to me when you have an answer for any of those.

Or even for the fact that all ST ships would need to do is transport a high powered torpedo straight onto the bridge of every SW ship.
Originally posted by jaden101
I'm ignoring the fact that you keep trying to use the enterprise D as somehow the best that ST has to offer.

Big deal. It has projectile weapons. They're still useless against Borg shields. Given that we know Borg ship shields adapt to projectile weapons then it's safe to assume Borg personal shields do too.

If you can use hyperbole arguments with no basis in canon such as that star forge can produce thousands of galaxy guns then I can just as easily say that every planet in the ST universe can have a cloak (which hides life signs...one of the actual points of having a cloak in the 1st place)

Well done, they have replicators...Care to elaborate on what they're used for?

Do they have transporters that can be used for tactical deployment of weapons or troops
?
Do they have time and space warping weapons?

Do they have weapons that can destroy everything in a radius of 5 light years?

Do they have fleets of ships that can destroy planets in seconds?

1 ST race would wreak havoc on the SW universe. The Krenim with their time ship. They could simply go back to when each and every deadly weapon that the SW univserse has to put into battle and change the events so it never exists in the 1st place.

jaden101

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Because SW exists over a million years, then, based on the parameters for this debate (which take into account ALL of each universe's history) SW has every soldier, weapon and ship over a million years.

WTF, now we're taking into account every person, species that ever existed? LoL. In that case, ST has millions of years too, there was an episode in STNG, which explained how one older (humanoid) race seeded billions of worlds throughout the universe.

This is stupid though, to include everything that ever was.

jaden101

YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME WHAT IN STAR WARS TECHNOLOGY WOULD STOP THOSE WEAPONS, THOUGH...HAVE YOU?

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Which is the exact opposite of what you just said was allowed 2 posts ago.

Nice going.

Where? When? Also, both of us are regularly bringing up technology from multiple different points in SW/ST history, so are you all of the sudden changing this?

I stated it:

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
NO OMNIPOTENTS/NEAR OMNIPOTENTS

This is all of the universes in their entire history.

Who wins?

jaden101

Originally posted by Robtard
WTF, now we're taking into account every person, species that ever existed? LoL. In that case, ST has millions of years too, there was an episode in STNG, which explained how one older (humanoid) race seeded billions of worlds throughout the universe.

This is stupid though, to include everything that ever was.

Indeed. I believe the Dyson's sphere in "Relics" was supposed to be ancient. The technology to build it was ridiculously far more advanced than anything SW has to offer.

To build a structure that could entirely surround a star at a large enough distance for life to exist on its inner surface. Enough of a surface area to hold quadrillions of life forms and the equivalent of 250 million earth sized planets.

Robtard

"NO OMNIPOTENTS/NEAR OMNIPOTENTS

This is all of the universes in their entire history.
Who wins?"

What do we do about species like the Q then? As they evolved into omnipotence. We would have to include ever single step in their history up until they became omnipotent. That second-to-last step (or 3rd) which would be allowed here, would likely yield a species powerful enough to destroy everything else in both ST and SW combined, yet still not omnipotent.

See, further proof you need to think deeper before you make Vs threads and you need to educate yourself on ST.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Where? When? Also, both of us are regularly bringing up technology from multiple different points in SW/ST history, so are you all of the sudden changing this?

I stated it:

That in reference to my query about whether we can combine tech from all the time lines or use them as actually shown.

Robtard

How the drowning flail about blindly.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
"NO OMNIPOTENTS/NEAR OMNIPOTENTS

This is all of the universes in their entire history.
Who wins?"

What do we do about species like the Q then? As they evolved into omnipotence. We would have to include ever single step in their history up until they became omnipotent. That second-to-last step (or 3rd) which would be allowed here, would likely yield a species powerful enough to destroy everything else in both ST and SW combined, yet still not omnipotent.

See, further proof you need to think deeper before you make Vs threads.

As I said in a quote in the last page, what is actually shown is used. The Q in their steps of evolution are almost completely unknown and never shown.

Originally posted by jaden101
That in reference to my query about whether we can combine tech from all the time lines or use them as actually shown.

We may use:

All races, beings and tech that is shown throughout its history, but no alternate timelines.

Originally posted by Robtard
How the drowning flail about blindly.

You really haven't made that much of a contribution to this argument.

Please explain the fact that an Aclamator is millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise D.

I'm waiting.

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
As I said in a quote in the last page, what is actually shown is used. The Q in their steps of evolution are almost completely unknown and never shown.

You really haven't made that much of a contribution to this argument.

Please explain the fact that an Aclamator is millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise D.

I'm waiting.

It'd be illogical to assume the Q went from stone-age chimps to near-Gods, with no steps in between. Then of course, if you knew anything of ST, you'd know that Q's task was to study the human race, because the Q where once like the human race (see early comment about the ancient species who seeded the universe), but they evolved into their omnipotence over millions of years. Q also stated that the human race would eventually end up as the Q.

Jaden has done an excellent job obliterating every single pro-SW point here, he's also been exceedingly patient with you. I add when I can.

Jaden covered that already with you about 5 times now. You're comparing a warship vs a science-vessel and slyly trying to impose that the Enterprise D is the height that all of ST has to offer. Both are sad attempts to Force (haha) a win.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
It'd be illogical to assume the Q went from stone-age chimps to near-Gods, with no steps in between. Then of course, if you knew anything of ST, you'd know that Q's task was to study the human race, because the Q where once like the human race (see early comment about the ancient species who seeded the universe), but they evolved into their omnipotence over millions of years. Q also stated that the human race would eventually end up as the Q.

Jaden has done an excellent job obliterating every single pro-SW point here, he's also been exceedingly patient with you. I add when I can.

Jaden covered that already with you about 5 times now. You're comparing a warship vs a science-vessel and slyly trying to impose that the Enterprise D is the height that all of ST has to offer. Both are sad attempts to Force (haha) a win.

But their evolution is not shown explicitly, so we can't just speculate their levels.

Actually, often times when he quotes my posts he literally IGNORES (doesn't even quote) large portions of them.

For example: what stops SW from using the Star Forge to create a fleet of galaxy guns and then use it to destroy every major planet in ST? Even if they manage to cloak the planets, SW will be able to see supply ships and such coming in and out of invisible places (since they will need supplies and such at some point), and then proceed to fire at those locations.

About the Aclamator vs Enterprise:

Are you saying that a transport/assault ship from ST would also be millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise?

And a science vessel should not be millions of times less durable than an outdated transport ship if ST tech was, as Jaden claims, far superior to SW's. Heck, even if tech is equal, a science vessel is not millions of times less durable. A car (although not a science vessel, my point is the same) is not millions of times less durable than a military humvee.

Besides, Jaden claimed that the Enterprise would actually beat a star destroyer...

And the Enterprise has shown to stand up to military vessels from ST, has it not?

And in a ground engagement, SW would absolutely destroy ST, and since SW planetary shields have withstood days/weeks of bombardment from star destroyers, in order to invade a SW planet ST would have to land an invasion force, which would get slaughtered.

Hewhoknowsall

ALSO:

SW communications is superior, 100 light years to galactic vs 22 light years

Robtard

LoL, you don't actually read everything; just skim through. I'll make it simpler.

-Q where once like the human race.

-Q evolved over millions of years into near-gods.

Ergo, that is both a lot of people,tech and power; this is just one race in ST. You really ****ed up doing the "entire history" angle, as ST stomps even harder. Though the Borg could likely do it.

No, Jaden has. You're also ignoring that even the Enterprise-D, a sci-vessel can fire hundreds of times further than a super-massive warship from SW. Not getting hit is a great advantage.

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
ALSO:

SW communications is superior, 100 light years to galactic vs 22 light years

Let me guess, you're only including The Federation as being ST here? Read up on 'Subspace', in ST.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
LoL, you don't actually read everything; just skim through. I'll make it simpler.

-Q where once like the human race.

-Q evolved over millions of years into near-gods.

Ergo, that is both a lot of people,tech and power; this is just one race in ST. You really ****ed up doing the "entire history" angle, as ST stomps even harder. Though the Borg could likely do it.

No, Jaden has. You're also ignoring that even the Enterprise-D, a sci-vessel can fire hundreds of times further than a super-massive warship from SW. Not getting hit is a great advantage.

BUT IT WAS NEVER SHOWN! We never see the Q in their earlier forms of evolution, so they aren't in.

And you just ignored my entire argument. Please quote it AND RESPOND TO MY STATEMENTS!

For example:

Is an outdated assault-transport ship in ST millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise like an outdated assault-transport ship from SW is?

Originally posted by Robtard
Let me guess, you're only including The Federation as being ST here?

The Federation is demilitarized yes, but that shouldn't decrease their communication ability.

Robtard

I see, you'll include everything in SW, blindly, yet cherry-pick shit out of ST because it further destroys your argument. Good one, champ, but you really stuck your foot up your ass with this "entire history" nonsense. Should have just kept in movies/shows.

Again, this is one ship from one species. Also, in ST, superbly powerful technology can be overcome, by exploiting frequencies, modulations and such, this is something ST does, improvises on the fly. This is often shown in the shows/movies. Jaden also has shown you tech/weapons that nullifies shields and armour.

Read up on Subspace communications in ST. Instant contact across the galaxy.

Edit: Better yet, educate yourself on ST and then come debate. The movies, TNG, DS9 and Voyager are all loaded with info.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
I see, you'll include everything in SW, blindly, yet cherry-pick shit out of ST because it further destroys your argument. Good one, champ, but you really stuck your foot up your ass with this "entire history" nonsense. Should have just kept in movies/shows.

Again, this is one ship from one species. Also, in ST, superbly powerful technology can he overcome, by exploiting frequencies. modulations and such, this is something ST does, improvises on the fly. This is often shown in the shows.

Read up on Subspace communications in ST. Instant contact across the galaxy.

Edit: Better yet, educate yourself on ST and then come debate. The movies, TNG, DS9 and Voyager are all loaded with info.

...you still haven't actually responded to the majority of my arguments.

I mean quoting parts of them and then responding to each part, like I would do w/Jaden.

Not ignoring almost everything I say and nick picking on random points.

And what have I cherry picked out of ST? Not allowing the evolutionary forms of Q which have NEVER been shown or explicitly described? What are we to do, speculate and make up how powerful the Q were/how quickly they evolved? What if the Q used mechs? What if at some point they had super hydro acid nuclear array missiles? What if they had spears that could be thrown that travel through space time and impale an enemy target from lightyears away, and they produced exactly 5 of these as super assasination weapons but they were destroyed by the ancestor of Q when he used a bow and arrow to destroy the control button when he was 25 years old? What if, what if?

Originally posted by jaden101
YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ME WHAT IN STAR WARS TECHNOLOGY WOULD STOP THOSE WEAPONS, THOUGH...HAVE YOU?

What do you mean "STOP" these weapons? Shields can stop most of them, those that warp space time and that are solar system destroyers SW can't STOP them, but ST can't STOP the Sun Crusher either, so what's your point?

Robtard

We would include everything they had over millions of years of evolution, from being "like humans" to god-like, as per YOUR rules.

You're just crying now, because you inadvertently destroyed your argument even more.

I wonder what the entire history of Species 8472 would yeid, as they have a universe to themselves. Certain death for SW, that's for sure.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
We would include everything they had over millions of years of evolution, from being "like humans" to god-like, as per YOUR rules.

You're just crying now, because you inadvertently destroyed your argument even more.

I wonder what the entire history of Species 8472 would yeid, as they have a universe to themselves. Certain death for SW, that's for sure.

Now you're just bashing. You still haven't responded to any of my posts.

And you still ignore the thread rules, as the entire history of Species 8472 is not shown nor described.

I've disproven every "argument" that you've thrown, and you have yet to respond to any of mine.

Stop acting like as if you're winning this debate. You are losing and have yet to present a single rational piece of valid evidence.

Robtard

No, you just debate poorly, mainly because you know little to nothing of ST.

Do tell which SW races has an "entire history shown"?

You actually haven't, you just throw things out like "galaxy gun!" and "sun crusher!", like any one trick pony weapon is going to defeat ST or SW.

Even without this "entire history" shit, The Borg, Spieces 8472 and the Jem Hadar could stomp SW. As it's not about "millions of years of time", it's about overall power and superior technology.

Dr Will Hatch

SW has Thrawn and Palpatine on its side, two utterly brilliant schemers. In matters of all out war, consider me on the side of the Empire.

Hell, with Pallaeon, Ackbar and EU Luke Skywalker, consider me on the Rebels as well.

I just hope Q stays neutral.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
No, you just debate poorly, mainly because you know little to nothing of ST.

Do tell which SW races has an "entire history shown"?

You actually haven't, you just throw things out like "galaxy gun!" and "sun crusher!", like any one trick pony weapon is going to defeat ST or SW.

Even without this "entire history" shit, The Borg, Spieces 8472 and the Jem Hadar could stomp SW. As it's not about "millions of years of time", it's about overall power and superior technology.

...still ignoring my argument (and your superior tech claim is unsupported)...

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...still ignoring my argument (and your superior tech claim is unsupported)...

If you're referring to your 'the Enterprise D fires at this much power, while the Acclamator attack-ship has shields at this much power', it's been answered and countered over and over, you simply insist on ignoring it. You also have yet to counter 99% of Jaden's points, so you asking others to counter yours is dishonest, though it's been done, as stated.

Superior tech in ST has been shown repeatedly, Jaden has listed and explained them to your over and over and over, again, you refuse to read/listen.

Another thing ST has over SW, time-travel, which has been shown many a time. So if we're bringing everything in, then ST gets everything from the future (see Temporal Wars in ST Enterprise), which is exponentially more power than anything shown thus far.

jaden101

So it references canon and then completely misinterprets it (the examples about the Borg I've already given in this thread, for example)

He didn't know about the Death Star....What with it being...a SECRET weapon and all. His life/freedom and livelyhood depend on him knowing the empire's compliment.

Because much of what he does is against empire laws?

So what's the superior firepower? Given that, by canon, I've already proven it takes a stardestroyer days to action a Base Delta Zero which only melts the surface of a planet yet the bioships take seconds to completely obliterate a planet?

So he outfitted them several times in a short space of time before he was assassinated?...Nah...He didn't.

It wasn't even aiming at Voyager and never hit it with a glancing blow...It completely missed it (because it wasn't aiming for Voyager) and yet still sent it spinning completely out of control.

Not to mention a couple of minor shots completely obliterated 2 Borg cubes at the start of the episode "Scorpion"

It's canon that the Borg lost, IN A SINGLE BATTLE, 312 cubes and 8 planets. Species 8472 were projected to completely eliminate the Borg in a matter of weeks (that's hundreds of thousands of planets, billions of ships and trillions of drones)

I've already shown the top level canon weakness of a turbo laser blast...It can't even take out the weak millenium falcon in a single hit...A shot caused a minor explosion on an unshielded hanger deck...So how do you think it would destroy a Borg cube...Seriously...How can you actually propose that it could and still keep a straight face

And we've already seen small asteroids sheer off massive chunks of shielded SD's....Great defences...And we've also seen small bioships destroy entire planets. Not just an asteroid.

I'll agree with that. Although it was somewhat off being finished, they'd clearly threw a massive amount of resources at it.

I'll finish my reply later...Off out for a while.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
If you're referring to your 'the Enterprise D fires at this much power, while the Acclamator attack-ship has shields at this much power', it's been answered and countered over and over, you simply insist on ignoring it. You also have yet to counter 99% of Jaden's points, so you asking others to counter yours is dishonest, though it's been done, as stated.

Wtf? Dude, I did respond to it. Obviously you are incapable of reading it, so I'll rephrase it for you:

Based on the official canon stats, the Aclamator is MILLIONS of times more powerful than the Enterprise.

Jaden's main rebuttal is that the Enterprise is just a science/exploration vessel and thus it isn't fair to compare them.

But would an outdated assault/transport ship FROM STAR TREK be millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise?

The answer: no, of course not! The Enterprise has been shown to successfully defend itself from enemy combat ships, showing that ST ships are not millions of times > than the Enterprise.

So:

Outdated assault/transport ship from SW = millions of Enterprises
Outdated assault/transport ship from ST =/= anywhere near millions of Enterprises

Get it?

Originally posted by Robtard

Superior tech in ST has been shown repeatedly, Jaden has listed and explained them to your over and over and over, again, you refuse to read/listen.

What do you mean? Have you actually read any of my posts? I've responded to all of them multiple times.

And Jaden has yet to explain how ST gets around their lack of armored vehicles, artillery or any form of ground combined arms tactics.

Originally posted by Robtard

Another thing ST has over SW, time-travel, which has been shown many a time. So if we're bringing everything in, then ST gets everything from the future (see Temporal Wars in ST Enterprise), which is exponentially more power than anything shown thus far.

Temporal Wars are possible futures/alternate timelines, are they not?

@Jaden101

Phasers have shown to be continously stopped by envirnmental cover such as crates. They also have never been (as far as I know) fired at the ranges that SW hand weapons have.

And ST completely lacks armored vehicles, artillery, motars, machine guns and basically combined arms forces. A single AT-AT would waste a legion of ST troops quite easily.

Robtard

Acclamator is an assault ship, sad that you can't even get SW facts correct, when you're a complete SW fanatic. So only thing you've proven is that an outdated SW assault ship has a larger power output than an outdated ST science-vessel, you know, the kind that carry along families and children. Luckily for the Enterprise-D, this is a war where it's NOT the only ship and the Federation is doing it solo.

No, you've side-stepped his points or you dismiss then. Mainly about the phased weapons, cloaking and whatnot, you know, the ones that SW has ZERO defense against.

Yes and no. ST ships from the future have come back in time, ergo, they'd exist and they'd be included in this fight. The Enterprise-J as an example.

Please take this as friendly advice, but educate yourself on what you're debating first, then debate. At least that Doan dude knows about SW and ST.

Hewhoknowsall

And are outdated ST assault ships millions of times more powerful than the Enterprise like how outdated SW assault ships are?

I have asked for additional info on phased weapons. He sent me a bunch of links about "phased" weapons, but out of them all only one of them was said to actually phase through space.

Star Wars has cloaking devices too, so that point is moot.

Then in that case, only those that actually came back in time to the regular timeline "exist" for this thread.

Friendly advice? I'm a pretty reasonable person, and listen to rational advice, but your posts haven't been anywhere near calm or rational.

Robtard

Not calm and rational? Alright, be a trolling *******, see how far that gets you, Skip.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by Robtard
Not calm and rational? Alright, be a trolling *******, see how far that gets you, Skip.

Way to ignore my entire post.

Also, I was calmly arguing until Jaden suddenly got hostile. Read over our posts again in chronological order and our tone. You'll see that my tone is reactive to you guys. Once Jaden suddenly became nice and all, and I was nice too. In the few other debates that I've had with you, I was nice whenever you were nice. I more or less NEVER bash someone first.

Hewhoknowsall

Edit: Sorry, I was wrong, the shields of an Aclamator are inded BILLIONS of times more powerful than that of the Enterprise.

It's true that the Enterprise isn't a war ship, and it would be acceptable if it were only a few times, even a few hundreds times less powerful/durable. However, BILLIONS of times less durable clearly shows the big tech gap: even if it is a science vessel, if tech is equal then it shouldn't be billions of times less durable; a car isn't billions of times less durable than an Abrams tank. Is the Enterprise billions of times less durable than an outdated assault ship from Star TREK? I think not, otherwise it would've gotten one shotted by pretty much every enemy it ever faced. However, it is indeed billions of times less durable than a Star WARS outdated assault ship.

This means that the Aclamator could one shot the Enterprise, and it could probably one shot practically any other average ship, unless of course if they're heat dissipation > Aclamator's several hundred million gigabite power turbolasers. And since the Enterprise's shield heat dissipation is only slightly above 3000, you'd have to make the claim that an average ST ship is MILLIONS of times more durable than the Enterprise in order for them to take even a single hit from an OUTDATED Star Wars assault ship. If so, then how does the Enterprise even scratch any enemy ship it comes in contact with?

-Pr-

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Phasers have shown to be continously stopped by envirnmental cover such as crates. They also have never been (as far as I know) fired at the ranges that SW hand weapons have.

And ST completely lacks armored vehicles, artillery, motars, machine guns and basically combined arms forces. A single AT-AT would waste a legion of ST troops quite easily.

only on low stun settings. on high settings, entire city blocks would be vaporised.

they dont need armoured tanks when they have photon grenades and high level beam phasers that will cut through an at-at like butter.

Hewhoknowsall

@Jaden101/Robtard:

Just to say, it would be appreciated if you were to respond to both my posts AND doan m's posts. Thanks

Originally posted by -Pr-
only on low stun settings. on high settings, entire city blocks would be vaporised.

Then how come in firefights in ST they don't just power up to full settings and blast through those crates?

Originally posted by -Pr-

they dont need armoured tanks when they have photon grenades and high level beam phasers that will cut through an at-at like butter.

And when exactly have they ever penetrated armor on an AT-AT's caliber before?

Hewhoknowsall

Nobody has yet to respond to my points...should we consider this debate a victory for me then?

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Nobody has yet to respond to my points...should we consider this debate a victory for me then?

laughing

Maybe in your tiny mind, son.

Come back when you've actually countered the points levied against your argument.

I have to say, though. This is genuinely the funniest thing i've read all week and i've been reading Danny Wallace's "The Yes Man" and it's pretty damn funny but you've stole the show with this absolute cracker.

I genuinely didn't know it was possible to be that delusional.

Absolute belter.

laughing out loud

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
laughing

WTF? You haven't even come close to winning this debate. Answer this:

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Edit: Sorry, I was wrong, the shields of an Aclamator are inded BILLIONS of times more powerful than that of the Enterprise.

It's true that the Enterprise isn't a war ship, and it would be acceptable if it were only a few times, even a few hundreds times less powerful/durable. However, BILLIONS of times less durable clearly shows the big tech gap: even if it is a science vessel, if tech is equal then it shouldn't be billions of times less durable; a science lab isn't billions of times less durable than a military base. Is the Enterprise billions of times less durable than an outdated assault ship from Star TREK? I think not, otherwise it would've gotten one shotted by pretty much every enemy it ever faced. However, it is indeed billions of times less durable than a Star WARS outdated assault ship.

This means that the Aclamator could one shot the Enterprise, and it could probably one shot practically any other average ship from Star TREK, unless of course if their heat dissipation > Aclamator's several hundred million gigabite power turbolasers. And since the Enterprise's shield heat dissipation is only slightly above 3000, you'd have to make the claim that an average ST ship is MILLIONS of times more durable than the Enterprise in order for them to take even a single hit from an OUTDATED Star Wars assault ship. If so, then how does the Enterprise even scratch any enemy ship it comes in contact with?

I've tried to rebuttal your rebuttal to my argument that the Aclamator is millions (now, I realize, BILLIONS) of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and you have ignored my rebuttal.

And at your so called "argument" involving "omg Star Trek has phased weapons!!!" I've already responded to that. Now respond to the above.

-Pr-

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Jaden101/Robtard:

Just to say, it would be appreciated if you were to respond to both my posts AND doan m's posts. Thanks

Then how come in firefights in ST they don't just power up to full settings and blast through those crates?

And when exactly have they ever penetrated armor on an AT-AT's caliber before?

because they're not trying to vaporise the entire corridor and bring whatever building they're in down around them. plus, starfleet officers rarely want to kill their enemies.

even the kill setting is one of the lower ones on the scale.

you make it sound like the at-at armour is that powerful. a fully powered phaser can blast through much more than the standard star wars blasters by a long way.

rick berman (i think it was) actually said in an interview that they had to make the phasers look less impressive, because if they were shown as powerful as they were, firefights would be impossible.

jaden101

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
WTF? You haven't even come close to winning this debate. Answer this:

I've tried to rebuttal your rebuttal to my argument that the Aclamator is millions (now, I realize, BILLIONS) of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and you have ignored my rebuttal.

And at your so called "argument" involving "omg Star Trek has phased weapons!!!" I've already responded to that. Now respond to the above.

Responded by PM and blatently shown that you're lying. You've copied figures i've already proven to be false. If you'd bothered to actually read the thread I posted to at the beginning of this debate and weren't so ****ing lazy then you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself now.

So no...An acclamator isn't "billions" of times more powerful. It isn't even slightly more powerful. It's a war ship that comes of worse than a science vessel that is much smaller and actually has less weapons that it.

Why...Because the enterprise has a far greater range, can fire at FTL speeds, has a far more ingenuitive crew and has defeated enemies far more powerful than itself.

What was your response to the phased weapons point again?...Oh that's right..."the shields would stop them"...Completely ignoring the fact that they are designed specifically to bypass shield altogether. Yet somehow you think that SW shields would miraculously stop them despite SW never having encountered phasic weapons before.

Nice argument.

You lose...

Again.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Responded by PM and blatently shown that you're lying. You've copied figures i've already proven to be false. If you'd bothered to actually read the thread I posted to at the beginning of this debate and weren't so ****ing lazy then you wouldn't be making a fool of yourself now.

You do notice that you aren't exactly being nice, do you? If you were to go over our threads, you'll notice that I was very nice until you suddenly started blasting/bashing me. Then, for a while you suddenly became nice again, in which case I became VERY nice to you. Now you're failing to actually respond to my arguments, and yet feel as if you somehow have the strange right to bash me.

Originally posted by jaden101

So no...An acclamator isn't "billions" of times more powerful. It isn't even slightly more powerful. It's a war ship that comes of worse than a science vessel that is much smaller and actually has less weapons that it.

Read the stats. Its shielding is billions of times that of the Enterprise. It has enough firepower to one shot the Enterprise as well. And "actually has less weapons"? Where did you get that?

You still haven't answered my question: is an outdated assault ship from Star TREK billions of times more durable than the Enterprise?

Originally posted by jaden101

Why...Because the enterprise has a far greater range, can fire at FTL speeds, has a far more ingenuitive crew and has defeated enemies far more powerful than itself.

laughing

Do you realize that you're losing and don't want to actually admit that you're wrong, so you try and hide the fact by bashing me, or do you actually fail to realize it?

"has a far greater range" - prove it

"can fire at FTL speeds" - what do you mean? Fire weapons that move at FTL, or fire while moving at FTL? Either way, prove it, and tell me how it matters since the Enterprise would have to fire trillions of shots to bring down an Aclamator

"far more ingenuitive crew" - that depends on who's manning the Aclamator

"defeated enemies far more powerful than itself" - true, but not nearly as powerful as an Aclamator; in most of the battles that the Enterprise is in the Enterprise is at least able to damage the enemy ship, but in this case it would take trillions of shots to put a dent in an Aclamator...and those ships in which the Enterprise encounters that outmatches it are generally top of the line ships, whereas the Aclamator is OUTDATED

And besides, you still haven't explained how ST counters Star Forge -> Mini Star Forges -> Fleets of Galaxy Guns -> Bye bye ST

Originally posted by jaden101

What was your response to the phased weapons point again?...Oh that's right..."the shields would stop them"...Completely ignoring the fact that they are designed specifically to bypass shield altogether. Yet somehow you think that SW shields would miraculously stop them despite SW never having encountered phasic weapons before.

Nice argument.

You lose...

Again.

wtf? When did I ever say that? I asked for more info about these phased weapons, and you sent me a bunch of links (most from non canon encyclopedias, but that's ok, as they are generally true), but only one of them actually describes a weapon that can phase through space-time...and only 20 were ever built

jaden101

You bring it on yourself through frustrating idiocy. I have little tolerance for people who ignore or don't understand basic concepts. If you'd bother to actually read and understand the technology i'm showing that ST has is far more advanced than anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion. But seeing as you either completely ignore those facts or simply don't understand them then i'll continue to beat them into you through insults and humiliation.

This is the perfect example of your inability to understand basic English. The ENTERPRISE has less weapons...Yet it still beats a SD through superior range, maneuverability, tactics, FTL weapon firing and a vastly superior crew. What would it take? Transport a few photon torpedos (who's power can be some 24 times that of the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth) and an SD is gone. It can do this from vastly further distances than an SD can fire. The proof is in the films. Look at the battle of Corascant. The republic and enemy ships are practically on top of each other as they fire volleys, side on at low speed and no attempt to avoid fire (because they're slow and not very agile). It's actually a homage to olden day sail ship wars but that's what's shown on screen.

Not to mention that i've already countered your stats with 1st hand canon from ST that shows quite clearly that your stats are lies.

So the answe to your question is "No" An acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than the enterprise. It's power output is measured in total as millions of gigawatts. The enterprise puts out hundreds of gigawatts PER SECOND. Even small hand phasers put out hundreds o megawatts of power so an acclamator isn't even billions of times more powerful than a hand held phaser.

Again a perfect example of why you're so frustrating to debate with. You know fine well i've already posted a picture made using 1st hand canon from movies regarding the range of THE OLD enterprise from the original series and a new SD. So asking me to "prove it" is simply asking me to repeat myself because you were either too ****ing thick to understand it the 1st time I posted it or were too ignorant to be bothered reading it in the 1st place. Ignoring facts doesn't mean they aren't facts.

Again an example of your idiocy yet you get upset when I call out that idiocy. I'm not going repeat myself for the hundreth time in even more basic English just because i'm arguing with someone who lacks the capacity to understand.

I was the one who mentioned the stupidity of where that debate would be going and mentioned the "mini star forges" as a joke to which you agreed was a stupid idea. I countered it with the equally stupid idea that every planet in star trek could be cloaked (because some had that ability and so the tech could be applied across all races). You even admitted that the star forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was invented and so couldn't be applied that way anyway. Thus you were the one who put paid to that idiotic way of debating.

You can't have it both ways. Either all tech from all eras can be mixed and matched, as above. Or they can exist and fight independantly.

At least i've provided links. You haven't provided any that wasn't SD.net.

So you're reverting back to the "only 20 were ever built" type of argument...Well in that case ONLY ONE GALAXY GUN WAS EVER BUILT...ONLY ONE STAR FORGE WAS EVER BUILT.

Here we go again. Another example of your complete idiocy. You can't have a million galaxy guns for SW (when a million didn't exist) but then restrict ST to the numbers shown on screen.

And you still haven't countered my points.

You even tried to bring in the ground war aspect to the debate. Do you have any knowledge of the ST EU ground wars and the weapons capability it contains?...Or do you just make your claims that ST has nothing to put into the fight from your ridiculously limited knowlege of ST from the handul of episodes you've watched.

The irony of this "debate" is that not only do I know infinitely more about ST than you do. I even know more about SW than you do because i've had to correct you on several occassions already. You seem to have tried to get all your information from 2 web pages. The comparison of the enterprise D to SW warship and the wookipedia page of SW superweapons.

Whereas i've actually gotten my information DIRECTLY from the films and TV shows. Yet you accuse me of using non canon information...

Very odd.

You lose

Again.

Jamefril

I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

jaden101

Originally posted by Jamefril
I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Nice post. Thanks for the input. I do think any criticism based on real life physics is a bit irrelevant though. Take the transporters for example. They would be completely impossible due to Heisenberg uncertainty principle. They get around this on ST by mentioning the fictional "Heisenberg compensators" and when the writers of the show were asked how they work they answered "They work very well, thank you" laughing

As for ST shields being unable to withstand Crystalline weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Crystalline_Entity

The Enterprise D's encounter with the crystalline entity may beg to differ.

Jamefril

Originally posted by jaden101

As for ST shields being unable to withstand Crystalline weapons.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Crystalline_Entity

The Enterprise D's encounter with the crystalline entity may beg to differ.

That would indeed make lightsabers seem rather useless. (or any technology concerning crystals)
Well I have to say not allowing near omnipotents and having shielding against crystal based weapons robs Star Wars of its two greatest advantages. This discussion isn't over because I will find something to help Star Wars (though I'm not sure it will be enough to bring victory).
For the moment being I say Star Trek has the definate upper hand.
But I'm going to keep looking for something to help Star Wars. I'm not trying to show favoritism to Star Wars but I would hate to see Star Wars go down without a fight!

Robtard

Originally posted by Jamefril
I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Lightsabres would still be energy weapons, as energy is passed through the crystal; this is what powers it. They also cut with extreme heat; I'm pretty sure shields have a very high level of heat resistance.

All in all, it's a moot point, as it's unlikely for a Jedi/Sith to attack a space-born ship.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
You bring it on yourself through frustrating idiocy. I have little tolerance for people who ignore or don't understand basic concepts. If you'd bother to actually read and understand the technology i'm showing that ST has is far more advanced than anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion. But seeing as you either completely ignore those facts or simply don't understand them then i'll continue to beat them into you through insults and humiliation.

"ST has is far more advanced han anything ever even contemplated on SW then we can have a more civil discussion." First of all, that's just pure fanboyism. It's OK to believe that ST tech is superior (it's not, but it's reasonable to think otherwise), but to claim that their tech is beyond what SW has ever conceived is just ignorance. Also, this quote is basically saying "we can only have a more civil discussion if you admit that SW loses"...well then in that case what will we discuss? Football? Stop trying to act like as if you're winning: you're not.

Originally posted by jaden101

This is the perfect example of your inability to understand basic English. The ENTERPRISE has less weapons...Yet it still beats a SD through superior range, maneuverability, tactics, FTL weapon firing and a vastly superior crew. What would it take? Transport a few photon torpedos (who's power can be some 24 times that of the most powerful nuclear weapon ever detonated on earth) and an SD is gone. It can do this from vastly further distances than an SD can fire. The proof is in the films. Look at the battle of Corascant. The republic and enemy ships are practically on top of each other as they fire volleys, side on at low speed and no attempt to avoid fire (because they're slow and not very agile). It's actually a homage to olden day sail ship wars but that's what's shown on screen.

superior range - I'll discuss below
maneuverability - yeah, but a SD has a huge complement of fighters, each of which is far more maneuverable than the Enterprise
tactics - how is this determined by the ship?
superior crew - that depends on who's manning the SD, but generally yeah, but that's because the main characters are on that ship (and they're really good)...the Falcon would have vastly superior crew to a Borg Cube, but that's because major characters are on it (and these characters are really good)

And a SD shield could easily stop a weapon 24 times that of a nuke, considering the fact that it can withstand repeated blasts from turbolasers with MILLIONS OF GIGAWATTS of power, which eclipses that of the electricity used by the US in an entire year BY FAR (ie billions of times)

Originally posted by jaden101

Not to mention that i've already countered your stats with 1st hand canon from ST that shows quite clearly that your stats are lies.

wtf? Where? When?

Originally posted by jaden101

So the answe to your question is "No" An acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than the enterprise. It's power output is measured in total as millions of gigawatts. The enterprise puts out hundreds of gigawatts PER SECOND. Even small hand phasers put out hundreds o megawatts of power so an acclamator isn't even billions of times more powerful than a hand held phaser.

Its reactor power is 200 trillion gw, EACH shot from a turbolaser is hundreds millions, and they have a pretty high rate of fire AND there are a TON of them surrounding the ship. So you have an armada of turbolasers firing at a very fast (although I'm not sure exactly how fast) rate of hundreds millions of gw vs a few hundreds per second...yeah, SW has the advantage here.

And also: how come you at first didn't deny that the Aclamator was billions of times more powerful, and instead was like "well that's because it's a science vessel!" but now all of the sudden change you mind? Because you realize that your first point was bound to fail so you have to make up a new one?
Originally posted by jaden101

Again a perfect example of why you're so frustrating to debate with. You know fine well i've already posted a picture made using 1st hand canon from movies regarding the range of THE OLD enterprise from the original series and a new SD. So asking me to "prove it" is simply asking me to repeat myself because you were either too ****ing thick to understand it the 1st time I posted it or were too ignorant to be bothered reading it in the 1st place. Ignoring facts doesn't mean they aren't facts.

You show'd me a picture...hurray? If I show you a picture that shows the Q being killed by a stormtrooper, does that mean that it's valid? Show me PROOF, not a picture that shows nothing other than the CONCLUSION but not the EVIDENCE. See how stupid this is? You show me a picture...and say that it's stupid for me not to get it. Hypocrite.

Hewhoknowsall

CONTINUED FROM MY ABOVE REBUTTAL...

Originally posted by jaden101

I was the one who mentioned the stupidity of where that debate would be going and mentioned the "mini star forges" as a joke to which you agreed was a stupid idea. I countered it with the equally stupid idea that every planet in star trek could be cloaked (because some had that ability and so the tech could be applied across all races). You even admitted that the star forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was invented and so couldn't be applied that way anyway. Thus you were the one who put paid to that idiotic way of debating.

You can't have it both ways. Either all tech from all eras can be mixed and matched, as above. Or they can exist and fight independantly.

BOTH of us are using techs and ships from all eras, so yeah we should allow them. It's also specified in the OP and throughout this thread. What's wrong with "mini star forges"? Now I'm make it nice and simple for you:

1. Since this is all of SW front to back that's shown(and vice versa for ST), the Star Forge is allowed.
2. This means that the Rakatan are also allowed.
3. Since they invented the SF, it would be logical to assume that they'd know how to make it.
4. They can therefore use the abundance of resources that the SF provides to make more SFs.
5. They then use these SFs to make Galaxy Guns (which the Empire knows how to make, since they made it).
6. They then go boom, and ST goes bye bye.

Originally posted by jaden101

At least i've provided links. You haven't provided any that wasn't SD.net.

So you're reverting back to the "only 20 were ever built" type of argument...Well in that case ONLY ONE GALAXY GUN WAS EVER BUILT...ONLY ONE STAR FORGE WAS EVER BUILT.

So? One good link + logic >>>>>>>>> a bunch of decent links + "omg I showed you a picture that didn't actually provide any evidence for its claim (or at least not in the picture itself, which is all you showed me) and I'll bash you for not conceding because I showed you a picture!!!" logic

But they KNOW how to build the SF. Let me ask you: how expensive were the phased weapons? Did they know how to build them (or did some faction from the future give them it)? What disadvantages did they have? How accurate were they?

Originally posted by jaden101

You even tried to bring in the ground war aspect to the debate. Do you have any knowledge of the ST EU ground wars and the weapons capability it contains?...Or do you just make your claims that ST has nothing to put into the fight from your ridiculously limited knowlege of ST from the handul of episodes you've watched.

The irony of this "debate" is that not only do I know infinitely more about ST than you do. I even know more about SW than you do because i've had to correct you on several occassions already. You seem to have tried to get all your information from 2 web pages. The comparison of the enterprise D to SW warship and the wookipedia page of SW superweapons.

READ. I have taken into account ground battles, AND YOU ACTUALLY RESPONDED TO SOME OF THEM! Do you have memory problems? Let me repeat to you some of my points:

ST lacks tanks
ST lacks artillery
ST lacks machine guns
ST lacks infantry armor
ST phasers get reguarly stopped by envirnmental cover such as crates

So?
And no, when have you ever corrected me on a major mistake I made about SW?

Originally posted by Jamefril
I enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars. I have just taken about 3 hours to read through a majority of all the posts and links that everyone has made. I must say, it is all quite impressive. I do have a few things to say for and against both Star Wars and Star Trek. I have a good deal of knowledge about phased weapons because I have taken college level physics classes. First off, phased weapons would be extremely inaccurate, because in order to go through the space/time reality of the shields they would create a "wrinkle" in time/space and could end up just about anywhere in the universe and possibly create a wormhole in the process. Although they would have had many more years to toy with phased weapons and may have found a way around that problem. If so, then by simply having the ability to use phased weapons would just about dominate Star Wars no matter what ships or planets either side had. There are 3 things Star Wars has going for it. Sith/Jedi (although if near omnipotent are restricted then this means nothing) because of Nihilus's ability to destroy an entire planet with mere words.
Also, the Lightsaber. Many people would say that this is an energy based weapon but it is not. While it uses energy to activate, it is crystalline based. Which means that Star Trek shields could not block a crystalline based weapon.
And finally, the Mass Shadow Generator. Which has the ability to crush the gravity field of a planet and anything surrounding it. But, Star Trek's ships would have to be relatively near to have any real effect, so I'm not sure it helps much.
My conclusion: if phased weapons actually worked than Star Trek has this, if not then it will still be one bloody battle and would have to be tested to see who would come out on top. I hate to admit it but I think Star Wars might be in a lot of trouble.

Nice points, but...

Jedi/Sith are allowed, since they aren't omnipotent/near omnipotent...not even close to it.

Hewhoknowsall

edit: oops, I got your PM, so yeah the part where I said "wtf? where? when?" please disregard

jaden101

And ST, in the form of species 8472, has an entire universe called fluidic space with which to draw numbers. You do realise that's considerably more numbers (and proven power) than 1 galaxy.

And i've already countered your galaxy gun idiotic point. If you get them ST gets cloaks on all planets making the galaxy guns useless anyway.

There is no currency is almost all species in ST so effectively they cost nothing. You're also completely missing the point. SW doesn't have infinite resources. It can't simply churn out infinite numbers of galaxy guns. Yet you're arguing that SW can and ST can't on silly principles like cost.

As for drawbacks of phased weapons. I can't recall them ever missing a target although, apparently, they occassionally don't detonate (as do most explosive weapons occassionally)

You're also being hypocritical again. It doesn't matter if 1 species or alliance didn't know how to build them. If you're going to argue that the Rakatan empire can share their technology with the rest of the universe then you can't deny that same principle to the ST side of the debate and be expected to be taken seriously can you?

Once again you miss my point by a royal mile. I never said you didn't mention them. I said you're ignorant of ST EU because within it they have huge numbers of ground weapons/artillery etc. So your statement of "ST lacks tank" etc is completely invalid. Simply because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

How many times do I have to tell you. I'll put it in big simply letters for you this time.

IT CAN'T BE FANBOYISM BECAUSE I ACTUALLY PREFER STAR WARS.

Lets look at the facts.

Does SW tech have the ability to time travel?....No

Does SW tech incorporate weapons that exist out of normal space?....No

Does SW have transporter tech?....No

Does SW have advanced replicator tech?....No

Does SW have weapons that can destroy areas thousands of times the size of a solar system?....No

Has any SW species shown the ability to build something even close to that of the Dyson's sphere shown in "Relics"?....No

Is there any mention o advanced nano technology in SW?....No

Does SW have the advanced medical technology that ST has?...No

Does SW have ablative armour?...No

The fighters are basically irrelevant seeing as they have nowhere near the power to even drain ST shields by 1%.

I would also disagree about the Falcon's crew being "better" in a tactics sense than a Borg cube. The Borg's hive mind allows for far faster decision making and far faster application of those decisions.

What would you like me to provide you with?...A full set of all ST episodes on dvd?...If your concentration span can't last to a few lines on an internet forum then I seriously doubt they'll last to some 700 hours of ST.

Yet, as proven on screen, a turbo laser causes a small explosion in a hanger deck that isn't shielded. Go figure.

Regardless...3 words...Multikinetic Neutronic Mine.

Every so slightly more powerful that a turbo laser.

By PM so don't even think about trying to deny it. Or shall we mention at this point the entire "copy and paste" nature of your debate. Proven by the fact that you couldn't even send me and Robtard a unique PM on the subject and infact sent us both exactly the same message.

You copy and pasted your so called "canon" figures from exactly the same source as the person who posted them in the other thread. They were disproven then and they're no more valid now. At least the person I was debating with had the sense to bow out gracefully.

Clearly a sold argument you have...A ton of them firing...not sure how fast. Makes your reactor figure extremely shaky as well doesn't it.

Here's something to bear in mind. In Voyager Tom Paris found a TERAWATT RIFLE. A terawatt is to a factor of 10 greater than a gigawatt. From a rifle.

Starfleet used a 60 terawatt tachyon beam to establish contact with Voyager from across the galaxy.

The Hirgogen claimed a set o ancient relay stations that were powered by artifical quantum singularities that gave out terawatts of power.

So no...I really don't think SW has it on the energy output battle at all.

FOR THE LAST TIME...THEY'RE FROM CANON FIGURES SHOWN ONSCREEN. I'M HARDLY GOING TO BUY YOU THE DVDS AM I? YOU IDIOT.

Robtard

You're wasting your breath, highlander. You disprove his claim with show/movie feats; he ignores it first, then he eventually drops his claim, only to bring it back up a couple pages later like you haven't already countered it.

So if there's anything to learn here, not even logic, common sense and show/movie facts can counter rampant Star Wars Faboyism.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
And ST, in the form of species 8472, has an entire universe called fluidic space with which to draw numbers. You do realise that's considerably more numbers (and proven power) than 1 galaxy.

Since when is it the size of a universe? Is species 8472's numbers ever quantified?

Originally posted by jaden101

And i've already countered your galaxy gun idiotic point. If you get them ST gets cloaks on all planets making the galaxy guns useless anyway.

"on all planets" so they manage to cloak every single planet before SW can use probes and such to see them?

Even if they do, SW will still be able to see supply ships/military ships traveling in and out of invisible planets, as well as the effect of gravity (just like in AOTC). And how is it idiotic? Even if it's wrong (which it isn't) that doesn't make it "idiotic". It's entirely reasonable to assume that a planet destroying weapon could...well, destroy ST planets.

Originally posted by jaden101

There is no currency is almost all species in ST so effectively they cost nothing. You're also completely missing the point. SW doesn't have infinite resources. It can't simply churn out infinite numbers of galaxy guns. Yet you're arguing that SW can and ST can't on silly principles like cost.

It may cost no currency, but it costs time and resources. And no, SW doesn't have infinite resources, but apparently you missed my part about the Star Forge...again, because you fail to read...again.

Originally posted by jaden101

As for drawbacks of phased weapons. I can't recall them ever missing a target although, apparently, they occassionally don't detonate (as do most explosive weapons occassionally)

You're also being hypocritical again. It doesn't matter if 1 species or alliance didn't know how to build them. If you're going to argue that the Rakatan empire can share their technology with the rest of the universe then you can't deny that same principle to the ST side of the debate and be expected to be taken seriously can you?

How many times were they fired?

WHO knows how to build them?

Originally posted by jaden101

Once again you miss my point by a royal mile. I never said you didn't mention them. I said you're ignorant of ST EU because within it they have huge numbers of ground weapons/artillery etc. So your statement of "ST lacks tank" etc is completely invalid. Simply because you don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

How many times do I have to tell you. I'll put it in big simply letters for you this time.

IT CAN'T BE FANBOYISM BECAUSE I ACTUALLY PREFER STAR WARS.

Lets look at the facts.

Does SW tech have the ability to time travel?....No

Does SW tech incorporate weapons that exist out of normal space?....No

Does SW have transporter tech?....No

Does SW have advanced replicator tech?....No

Does SW have weapons that can destroy areas thousands of times the size of a solar system?....No

Has any SW species shown the ability to build something even close to that of the Dyson's sphere shown in "Relics"?....No

Is there any mention o advanced nano technology in SW?....No

Does SW have the advanced medical technology that ST has?...No

Does SW have ablative armour?...No

Actually, you said that I didn't take into account ground battles. So you basically claimed that I ignored them.

Memory Alpha, Wikipedia and numerous other sites state that the novels/other EU material are NOT canon (and don't try and say "oh well Memory Alpha/Wikipedia are just open, non canon encyclopedias because you've been using it too, and they + other sites more or less all claim the same thing...that ST novels aren't canon) and that only the films, episodes and apparently cartoons are.

Originally posted by jaden101

The fighters are basically irrelevant seeing as they have nowhere near the power to even drain ST shields by 1%.

I would also disagree about the Falcon's crew being "better" in a tactics sense than a Borg cube. The Borg's hive mind allows for far faster decision making and far faster application of those decisions.

Reread that link I sent you with the stats of the Enterprise and Aclamator and such. It also lists Slave 1's stats...and they're still FAR above that of the Enterprise.

Well, that's debatable, but not important for this discussion.

Originally posted by jaden101

What would you like me to provide you with?...A full set of all ST episodes on dvd?...If your concentration span can't last to a few lines on an internet forum then I seriously doubt they'll last to some 700 hours of ST.

Yet, as proven on screen, a turbo laser causes a small explosion in a hanger deck that isn't shielded. Go figure.

Regardless...3 words...Multikinetic Neutronic Mine.

Every so slightly more powerful that a turbo laser.

I'd like to at least explain to me the descriptions/feats. In other words, provide some sort of proof.

Pointless argument. This shows that even the unshielded hulls are very durable (there is a canon source for the firepower of a turbolaser, so therefore we use that as the benchmark and not the unquantified hull durability)...which helps SW!

Originally posted by jaden101

By PM so don't even think about trying to deny it. Or shall we mention at this point the entire "copy and paste" nature of your debate. Proven by the fact that you couldn't even send me and Robtard a unique PM on the subject and infact sent us both exactly the same message.

You copy and pasted your so called "canon" figures from exactly the same source as the person who posted them in the other thread. They were disproven then and they're no more valid now. At least the person I was debating with had the sense to bow out gracefully.

I made a post on this thread that took back that question after I saw your private message (I don't check it that often)...obviously you ignored it.

No, you didn't disprove them. You ADMITTED to them and made the excuse "oh well that's because the Enterprise is a science vessel and not a war ship!" and when I destroyed that argument (you still haven't directly responded to my rebuttal except for suddenly claiming that those figures are false) you instead changed your argument to "no, those figures are false!"

Originally posted by Robtard
You're wasting your breath, highlander. You disprove his claim with show/movie feats; he ignores it first, then he eventually drops his claim, only to bring it back up a couple pages later like you haven't already countered it.

So if there's anything to learn here, not even logic, common sense and show/movie facts can counter rampant Star Wars Faboyism.

I responded to your rebuttals, and you ignored them all, instead just saying "omg you're wrong".

This is VERY common among irrational and immature people: people do it when they don't actually have proof/evidence for their point but aren't willing to be mature and admit defeat, so they just spam random insults and ignore any logical responses.

Robtard

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Since when is it the size of a universe? Is species 8472's numbers ever quantified?

Watch Star Trek: Voyager.

Edit: Which just reminded me, the Krenim time-ship could erase an entire species from existance with it's temporal gun. This ship also exist out of normal space-time, so no amount of firepower can affect it.

jaden101

Since it's canonically stated that it's an another universe accessible through quantum singularities.

So the Star Forge manages to make thousands of galaxy guns before it's destroyed?...

Ships are cloaked too. And given that the Scimitar has a perfect and undetectable cloak...We'll use your debating technique and extrapolate that to all ST ships.

You're the one lacking in reading comprehension and ability to understand (big words...Look them up)

By YOUR debating tactic...IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's not difficult to understand. If your logic is that some species in ST don't know how to build phased or temporal weapons then the Star Forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was designed so one wouldn't be able to manufacture the other. You can't have it both ways. What's difficult about not being hypocritical in terms of that way of debating?

So now you're arguing that SW novels can be used and ST ones can't?

Please...You 1st.

Seeing as this entire debate started with me asking how SW would counter certain weapons which you have utterly and completely failed to do so far.

I've given numerous actual events from ST episodes so to say I haven't been listing feats when I clearly have is complete lies. I've even posted clips from youtube of feats as well (something you've not done for SW at all)

I've shown the bioships destroying a planet, for example. I've shown the ST shield power against the hussnock weapons. I've given canon examples of SW inferior range weapons by describing how they fought in the battle of Corascant. I've shown how a single Borg cube could scrape entire cities off the surface of planets. I've described the power of a Borg multikinetic neutronic mine using canon figures straight from the mouthes of characters on the show. I've given canon examples of how the Krenim time weapon works to eradicate species so as to stop them existing altogether.

Shall I keep going?

It wasn't a hull...It was a hanger deck...I think I made that quite clear several times now. By your stats a single shot should have vapourised the entire ship...It made a small explosion on a hanger deck.

So you asked me for proof and then when I provided the figures and tackled your argument from that point (given that you didn't want to accept my other argument) You then try and say i'm changing my argument (which is what you asked for in the 1st place)

Hardly a valid point you're making is it?

No counters for my canon proof of ST having technology that puts out power in ranges far above SW then?...

Nah...didn't think so.

How about tackling the points next time.

Robtard

Originally posted by jaden101
I've given canon examples of how the Krenim time weapon works to eradicate species so as to stop them existing altogether.

I didn't see you make this point before, as I just brought it up. This is all Star Trek really needs to defeat anything/everything Star Wars.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Since it's canonically stated that it's an another universe accessible through quantum singularities.

Well, not to get picky, but you stated that numbers aren't a factor here and that we're only discussing technology (you said this in response to my claim of SW's numerical superiority).

Originally posted by jaden101

So the Star Forge manages to make thousands of galaxy guns before it's destroyed?...

Why not? The Galaxy Gun was made relatively quickly, and with multiple SF's it should take even less time. You just surround the SF's with star destroyers and even the Death Star.

Originally posted by jaden101

Ships are cloaked too. And given that the Scimitar has a perfect and undetectable cloak...We'll use your debating technique and extrapolate that to all ST ships.

Not all ships are cloaked because not all of them can for various reasons, such as energy consumption. And my point about gravity still stands.

Originally posted by jaden101

You're the one lacking in reading comprehension and ability to understand (big words...Look them up)

By YOUR debating tactic...IT DOESN'T MATTER. It's not difficult to understand. If your logic is that some species in ST don't know how to build phased or temporal weapons then the Star Forge was destroyed before the galaxy gun was designed so one wouldn't be able to manufacture the other. You can't have it both ways. What's difficult about not being hypocritical in terms of that way of debating?

...what?

Does whatever faction that knows how to build it exist within the main ST timeline? We both agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline.

Originally posted by jaden101

So now you're arguing that SW novels can be used and ST ones can't?

Yes, because SW novels ARE considered to be canon, whereas ST novels are NOT considered to be canon.

Originally posted by jaden101

Please...You 1st.

Seeing as this entire debate started with me asking how SW would counter certain weapons which you have utterly and completely failed to do so far.

I've given numerous actual events from ST episodes so to say I haven't been listing feats when I clearly have is complete lies. I've even posted clips from youtube of feats as well (something you've not done for SW at all)

I've shown the bioships destroying a planet, for example. I've shown the ST shield power against the hussnock weapons. I've given canon examples of SW inferior range weapons by describing how they fought in the battle of Corascant. I've shown how a single Borg cube could scrape entire cities off the surface of planets. I've described the power of a Borg multikinetic neutronic mine using canon figures straight from the mouthes of characters on the show. I've given canon examples of how the Krenim time weapon works to eradicate species so as to stop them existing altogether.

No, this debate started with Star Wars vs Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica and Lord of the Rings, but it quickly boiled down to Star Wars vs Star Trek. You asking how SW would counter certain weapons wasn't until later.

Omg! I didn't use youtube! Gasp!

Bioships destroyed a planet...so can SW. When have you talked about hussnock weapons? What's wrong with how they fought in the battle of Coruscant, especially since the CIS ships would have to get closer than usual since they were trying to invade Coruscant and capture Palpatine?

Originally posted by jaden101

It wasn't a hull...It was a hanger deck...I think I made that quite clear several times now. By your stats a single shot should have vapourised the entire ship...It made a small explosion on a hanger deck.

So you asked me for proof and then when I provided the figures and tackled your argument from that point (given that you didn't want to accept my other argument) You then try and say i'm changing my argument (which is what you asked for in the 1st place)

Hardly a valid point you're making is it?

No counters for my canon proof of ST having technology that puts out power in ranges far above SW then?...

Nah...didn't think so.

How about tackling the points next time.

So that shows that a hanger deck is really durable, NOT that a turbolaser isn't, because the latter has canon stats, so it should be the benchmark.

No, I asked you if an outdated assault ship from ST is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise.

What canon proof? You showed me a picture!

Jamefril

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
...what?
Does whatever faction that knows how to build it exist within the main ST timeline? We both agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline.

Wait a second, "agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline."
What timeline is that exactly? Does that include expanded universe such as KoTOR and NJO? Because if not, Star Wars is going to lose really fast. I mean the Galaxy Gun was from expanded universe was it not? If so I will assume that we can use expanded universe material. And if Jedi/Sith are not considered near omnipotents then Star Wars may yet have a good chance on at the very least, a tie! If you think about it, Darth Nihilus was able to speak a few mere words and destroy an entire planet. Darth Sidious used a force storm to wipe out part of the Rebel's fleet(expanded universe)! There are also the Mandalorians that live for war and have many machines like the Basalisk War Droid that are fast, powerful, and almost unstoppable.

"The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual explains that it works in two stages, when the shields are hit by an energy or particle weapon, phaser or thermal energy from the ship is dissipated across the hull, creating a boil-off rate that carries away most of the incoming beam's energy. Most of the time the boil-off creates a particle cloud that is dense enough to disperse the incoming beam." (quoted from Wikipedia) It says MOST of the time therefore it isn't energy proof, its only energy resistant. Also, what about Ion beams? Ion would be affected little, if at all, by the shields and would love the armor. Once hitting the ship would continue by shutting down computers and most other powered devices. Which would leave ST ships a little vunerable, right?

jaden101

The difference is that the figures I quoted are actually in the ST series. Said aloud by main characters. This is as pure canon as it gets.

I'm not saying you can't use them that way but you keep changing the parameters of the argument. You say the SF can be used to make more GG's but at the same time you say that ST can't have anymore phased weapons than are shown in the shows (or at the very least you imply that they shouldn't be allowed)...Same with cloaking technology.

Again we'll use your method of debate with regards to the SF and GG. It wouldn't matter if some couldn't due to the ability to share tecnology among species and time periods (which is what you propose when you say the SF can build GG's)

Deary me. This really is getting quite tedious.

You are saying that the SF can be used to make thousands of copies of a weapon that only existed AFTER the SF was destroyed. So by that logic the same principle can be applied to technology. ST species that have the ability to cloak planets and ships can share that tech with those who don't. Which then defeats the entire purpose of the debate anyway which is to use the weapons as they are shown and in the numbers they are shown or quoted as being.

Nonsense gimping argument. And you know. Desperation clearly creeping in.

It started as you trying to make what you thought to be another easy win thread for star wars. Unfortunately you've been shown wrong in several of them already. The "army of the dead" issue being a case in point from another thread. It then went into the ignorace of doan_m making a statement based on his knowledge of SW and complete lack of knowledge of ST....You then asked the question "how does ST win?" followed by the ignorant statement that has defined your argument and shown your knowledge of ST since the start of the thread.

Despite being shown that SW has absolutely nothing on the level of temporal (time) and spacial based weapons as well as many other pieces of tech that SW hasn't even begun to develop.

You really need to stop embarressing yourself with these reactionary, made-up claims. It's pathetic. You don't even know what scene i'm referring to.

It's when the turbolaser hits the hangerdeck/gun emplacement on the clone ship and barely has enough energy to flip over the enemy gun and throws a clone trooper through the air. By your figures it should have instantly vapourised everyone in the entire room.

So no...Quite clearly from the onscreen canon an acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than anything.

That was made using canon figures from actual onscreen footage and dialogue. Am I just repeating myself again?...Is it really that difficult for you to grasp this fact?

Robtard

Originally posted by Jamefril
Wait a second, "agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline."
What timeline is that exactly? Does that include expanded universe such as KoTOR and NJO? Because if not, Star Wars is going to lose really fast. I mean the Galaxy Gun was from expanded universe was it not? If so I will assume that we can use expanded universe material. And if Jedi/Sith are not considered near omnipotents then Star Wars may yet have a good chance on at the very least, a tie! If you think about it, Darth Nihilus was able to speak a few mere words and destroy an entire planet. Darth Sidious used a force storm to wipe out part of the Rebel's fleet(expanded universe)! There are also the Mandalorians that live for war and have many machines like the Basalisk War Droid that are fast, powerful, and almost unstoppable.

"The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual explains that it works in two stages, when the shields are hit by an energy or particle weapon, phaser or thermal energy from the ship is dissipated across the hull, creating a boil-off rate that carries away most of the incoming beam's energy. Most of the time the boil-off creates a particle cloud that is dense enough to disperse the incoming beam." (quoted from Wikipedia) It says MOST of the time therefore it isn't energy proof, its only energy resistant. Also, what about Ion beams? Ion would be affected little, if at all, by the shields and would love the armor. Once hitting the ship would continue by shutting down computers and most other powered devices. Which would leave ST ships a little vunerable, right?

With enough gimping, SW can win, this is about the only way it can here, mass gimping.

I foresee temporal and phased weapons suddenly not being allowed.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
The difference is that the figures I quoted are actually in the ST series. Said aloud by main characters. This is as pure canon as it gets.

That has nothing to do with what I said. You stated a few pages ago after a made the claim that SW has more numbers since we're using of their forces shown/mentioned in their history, which for SW is FAR larger, and you countered by saying that we're just discussing whose technology is better, which we actually are.

Originally posted by jaden101

I'm not saying you can't use them that way but you keep changing the parameters of the argument. You say the SF can be used to make more GG's but at the same time you say that ST can't have anymore phased weapons than are shown in the shows (or at the very least you imply that they shouldn't be allowed)...Same with cloaking technology.

No, you're not getting it. What I'm asking you is if these phased weapons were made by people from an alternate timeline. I have yet to come to a conclusion about how SW counters phased weapons because I still need more information on them. With cloaked fields, I already explained how SW counters that, plus ST might not have the resources to put them on every major planet.

Originally posted by jaden101

Again we'll use your method of debate with regards to the SF and GG. It wouldn't matter if some couldn't due to the ability to share tecnology among species and time periods (which is what you propose when you say the SF can build GG's)

This is really getting annoying. Do you know what I said? I said that cloaking fields HAVE DISADVANTAGES that prevent them from being used on every ship, otherwise they would've been used on every ship (since most races have some form of cloaking). Technology can have drawbacks. This has NOTHING to do with whether or not they HAVE the technology.

Originally posted by jaden101

Deary me. This really is getting quite tedious.

You are saying that the SF can be used to make thousands of copies of a weapon that only existed AFTER the SF was destroyed. So by that logic the same principle can be applied to technology. ST species that have the ability to cloak planets and ships can share that tech with those who don't. Which then defeats the entire purpose of the debate anyway which is to use the weapons as they are shown and in the numbers they are shown or quoted as being.

They can SHARE the tech, but again the tech still has drawbacks that can be exploited. Don't you get it?

Originally posted by jaden101

Nonsense gimping argument. And you know. Desperation clearly creeping in.

This is probably one of your most ignorant posts to date.

GEORGE LUCAS STATES THAT SW BOOKS ARE CANON!!!
ST STATES THAT ST BOOKS ARE NOT CANON!!!

However, since apparently you believe that referencing OFFICIAL sources is "desperation", I'll just use your logic (as you keep on claiming to use mine) from now on.

Originally posted by jaden101

It started as you trying to make what you thought to be another easy win thread for star wars. Unfortunately you've been shown wrong in several of them already. The "army of the dead" issue being a case in point from another thread. It then went into the ignorace of doan_m making a statement based on his knowledge of SW and complete lack of knowledge of ST....You then asked the question "how does ST win?" followed by the ignorant statement that has defined your argument and shown your knowledge of ST since the start of the thread.

I've countered every one of your arguments, and you've just kept on coming up with excuses. Stop making yourself look like a fool.

Originally posted by jaden101

Despite being shown that SW has absolutely nothing on the level of temporal (time) and spacial based weapons as well as many other pieces of tech that SW hasn't even begun to develop.

You are suddenly bringing up stuff that you haven't brought up before (mainly because you thought that ST would win easily without such superweapons), ie weapons that are ST's trump cards. This quite clearly shows desperation.

And, since we're going by your logic, anything that is stated by the official companies to be not canon is now canon, so I imagine a fan fic where SW has the Ultimate Nullifier, so now it does. Sure, official sources say that fan fic isn't canon, but then again official sources say that ST books aren't canon and you bashed me for pointing that out, so yeah, SW erases ST from existence.

Originally posted by jaden101

You really need to stop embarressing yourself with these reactionary, made-up claims. It's pathetic. You don't even know what scene i'm referring to.

It's when the turbolaser hits the hangerdeck/gun emplacement on the clone ship and barely has enough energy to flip over the enemy gun and throws a clone trooper through the air. By your figures it should have instantly vapourised everyone in the entire room.

Oh, NOW you're specifying (although I don't think that it was a turbolaser). However, since we're going by your logic, I'll imagine a fan fic where that was because the weapon that was used was from ST that somehow got there through some dimensional portal, so it wasn't powerful enough to cause significant damage even that hanger bay had (in my now-canon-based-on-your-logic fan fic) been exposed point blank to a supermassive black hole and it's canon (to think otherwise would be "desperation" on your part).

Originally posted by jaden101

So no...Quite clearly from the onscreen canon an acclamator isn't billions of times more powerful than anything.

How come you started claiming that my figures were false just a while ago? For most of the thread you admitted that it was correct but claimed that it's justified because the Enterprise isn't a war ship, but now after you've realized the stupidity of that argument you've changed it.

Also, I'm using CANON FIGURES (stardestroyer.net got them from a canon book).

Originally posted by jaden101

That was made using canon figures from actual onscreen footage and dialogue. Am I just repeating myself again?...Is it really that difficult for you to grasp this fact?

I imagine a fan fic where SW has God on their side. SW stomps.

Originally posted by Jamefril
Wait a second, "agreed that we're only allowing stuff from a single timeline."
What timeline is that exactly? Does that include expanded universe such as KoTOR and NJO? Because if not, Star Wars is going to lose really fast. I mean the Galaxy Gun was from expanded universe was it not? If so I will assume that we can use expanded universe material. And if Jedi/Sith are not considered near omnipotents then Star Wars may yet have a good chance on at the very least, a tie! If you think about it, Darth Nihilus was able to speak a few mere words and destroy an entire planet. Darth Sidious used a force storm to wipe out part of the Rebel's fleet(expanded universe)! There are also the Mandalorians that live for war and have many machines like the Basalisk War Droid that are fast, powerful, and almost unstoppable.

"The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual explains that it works in two stages, when the shields are hit by an energy or particle weapon, phaser or thermal energy from the ship is dissipated across the hull, creating a boil-off rate that carries away most of the incoming beam's energy. Most of the time the boil-off creates a particle cloud that is dense enough to disperse the incoming beam." (quoted from Wikipedia) It says MOST of the time therefore it isn't energy proof, its only energy resistant. Also, what about Ion beams? Ion would be affected little, if at all, by the shields and would love the armor. Once hitting the ship would continue by shutting down computers and most other powered devices. Which would leave ST ships a little vunerable, right?

Star Wars EU is still from the same timeline.

Jamefril

I think I am beginning to see a pattern here. I think that the winner would be whomever fired first. A well placed shot can cripple an army.
But thats not what we're debating about. I would say that about 75% of this thread has been something like this: "You didn't counter my last comment!" or "That can't be proven." or "Thats a bad argument!" Now, over all, I like Star Wars better for its storyline. But, that doesn't make Star Wars win. Facts laid all out, in a universe to universe battle, Star Trek wins. Star Trek has more advanced technology than Star Wars and has (arguably) more resources to call upon.

Hewhoknowsall

(sorry, accidental post)

jaden101

I'm not even going to try and guess what this is supposed to mean. Rephrase it and get back to me please

Although I presume that i has something to do with the SW timeline covering a longer period than ST and so it has more people to throw into the fight. Even though it's utterly irrelevant because all of the SW timeline still don't measure up to the sheer numbers of Borg and Dominion existing in 1 small part of the ST timeline. Not even mentioning the entirety of fluidic space to draw upon Species 8472 numbers.

The Krenim exist in the main timeline. It's the use of their temporal weapons that CREATE alternative timelines.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Year_of_Hell_(episode)

Have a read about the double episode called "Year of hell". What'd be even better is if you could find away to watch it. Not only will it show what the Krenim time ship can do but it's damn entertaining. (Not in half because the bad guy is Charles Boddicker from Robocop)

Other phased weapons exist within the standard timeline.

And my point is that if they can share 1 technology (the cloak) then they can share other technology that prevents them using cloaks in the 1st place (lack of power...although I have no idea where you got this as a reason why some races don't have cloaks) The only reason I can think of off hand for the federation doesn't have cloaks in the era of the Enterprise D is a treaty with the Romulans that mean the federation using them would be considered an act of war. This point would be moot if they were combining forces to take on SW though (as it was when they were fighting the Dominion)

See above.

So it's not desperation? Is that the same as you asking me whether phased weapons are part of an alternative timeline only in some thinly veiled attempt at disallowing them as well? You've already disallowed Q and the Douwd (for understandable reasons)...You tried to disallow Species 8472 by claiming they were part of a completely alternative universe (even though it was clear you had no idea whether they were or not)...Then you tried to limit the number of phased weapons based on how many you see in canon sources but at the same time trying to include thousands of galaxy guns despite there only being 1 in canon.

As for you using an official source. You haven't used one yet. You've used a blatently wrong (proven to be so) opinion of a SW fanboy from a SW fanboy website. How this equates to "official" is beyond me. And how this is more "official" than me directly quoting the shows and films is even more beyond me.

Continuing to claim that you need more information isn't a counter to a point (and that's all you've done regarding almost all the ST tech i've mentioned) Even when I do provide more, you don't even bother to read it or watch it.

So again. Where's your counter to the multikinetic neutronic mine?, The Krenim time weapon?, Transphasic torpedoes?, Ablative armour?, transporters that bypass shields?, Shield draining torpedoes?, Magnetometric guided charges?, Q-guns?, The Phoenix rift?, The Omega particle?,

Here's an example of what one of those can do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEfsoi0a1HM&feature=related

The Krenim time weaponship exists outside of space and time. As such it is completely impervious to any weapon that doesn't exist on the same plane as it does as they simply pass through as if it wasn't even there. The ship itself can fire on a planet and completely erase an entire species completely from ever existing. It also fires torpedoes that exist outside of space and time and then reappear in space and time once inside shields or even inside enemy ships.

It's effectively indestructable unless someone on the ship disables the mechanism that allows it to exist outside of normal space and time but given that no enemy can transport onto the ship in the 1st place because it isn't on the same plane of existence as them then how would an enemy disable the mechanism anyway?..

Do your best to directly tackle that one piece of technology and I'll start showing you a bit more respect.

I've mentioned the Krenim ship numerous times on this thread already. Just because you didn't know that temporal meant time doesn't mean i'm mentioning it for the 1st time.

Or is this you now trying to disallow ST superweapons yet allow SW superweapons? More gimping to try and eek out a win?...They're not trump cards. They're simply pieces of tech that exist in ST that you have no counter for at all.

So your imagined fan fiction would be more legitimate than the SW films?...To be fair, that's probably the only way you're going to win this debate. To simply imagine that SW has things to beat ST tech. Given that you can't answer the points using real SW facts.

Consider this though. Canon is ST's case means extra events that aren't considered part of the same story ark as the shows. Does this mean that they aren't officially licensed by ST's creators?...No...Of course they have to license the products otherwise they wouldn't be allowed to bear the name Star Trek. Hence they're "official" and so applicable in this case.

True. However you claim that SW timeline covers millions of years. I'm aware of the fact that it's universe is supposed to be some 10,000,000,000 years old but what actual useful species could they put into the fight from way in the past? Take one you've already mentioned for example. The Rakatan "infinite" empire. It lasted about 10,000 years and at it's peak covered only 500 worlds. Compare that with the Borg, whom, as I stated before covered millions of worlds. Not only that but the entire Borg species is war capable. They don't have an army gaurding/policing a much larger civillian population as SW does in the form of the empire etc.

So how where do you get your numbers from that just because their timeline is longer that they automatically have more troops to put into the fight? State the official figures that match the Borg in terms of numbers.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
I'm not even going to try and guess what this is supposed to mean. Rephrase it and get back to me please

Although I presume that i has something to do with the SW timeline covering a longer period than ST and so it has more people to throw into the fight. Even though it's utterly irrelevant because all of the SW timeline still don't measure up to the sheer numbers of Borg and Dominion existing in 1 small part of the ST timeline. Not even mentioning the entirety of fluidic space to draw upon Species 8472 numbers.

Basically, you said that we're just discussing technology here. And we should be, since this debate started with you claiming that ST has superior weapons and technology than SW in a rebuttal to my claim that SW has superior weapons and technology.

Originally posted by jaden101

The Krenim exist in the main timeline. It's the use of their temporal weapons that CREATE alternative timelines.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Year_of_Hell_(episode)

Have a read about the double episode called "Year of hell". What'd be even better is if you could find away to watch it. Not only will it show what the Krenim time ship can do but it's damn entertaining. (Not in half because the bad guy is Charles Boddicker from Robocop)

Other phased weapons exist within the standard timeline.

Ok, I'll look at it later and then respond to it.

Originally posted by jaden101

And my point is that if they can share 1 technology (the cloak) then they can share other technology that prevents them using cloaks in the 1st place (lack of power...although I have no idea where you got this as a reason why some races don't have cloaks) The only reason I can think of off hand for the federation doesn't have cloaks in the era of the Enterprise D is a treaty with the Romulans that mean the federation using them would be considered an act of war. This point would be moot if they were combining forces to take on SW though (as it was when they were fighting the Dominion)

See above.

That doesn't make any sense...since the ships are cloaked then the Romulans never would've known if the Federation had cloaked ships.

Originally posted by jaden101

So it's not desperation? Is that the same as you asking me whether phased weapons are part of an alternative timeline only in some thinly veiled attempt at disallowing them as well? You've already disallowed Q and the Douwd (for understandable reasons)...You tried to disallow Species 8472 by claiming they were part of a completely alternative universe (even though it was clear you had no idea whether they were or not)...Then you tried to limit the number of phased weapons based on how many you see in canon sources but at the same time trying to include thousands of galaxy guns despite there only being 1 in canon.

How is not allowing stuff THAT ISN'T CANON desperation? SW books are considered by George Lucas to be canon. ST books are not considered by ST to be canon.

Originally posted by jaden101

As for you using an official source. You haven't used one yet. You've used a blatently wrong (proven to be so) opinion of a SW fanboy from a SW fanboy website. How this equates to "official" is beyond me. And how this is more "official" than me directly quoting the shows and films is even more beyond me.

Since when have you proven it? In response to my Aclamator = billions of times greater than the Enterprise point you:

1. Said that it's because the Enterprise is just a science vessel, but I countered by saying that the Enterprise isn't billions of times weaker than a ST equivalent of the Aclamator (which you still haven't directly responded to yet, other than the below).

2. Then, you suddenly changed your mind and instead claimed that the Enterprise not only isn't billions of times weaker...but it would actually WIN!

Originally posted by jaden101

Continuing to claim that you need more information isn't a counter to a point (and that's all you've done regarding almost all the ST tech i've mentioned) Even when I do provide more, you don't even bother to read it or watch it.

So again. Where's your counter to the multikinetic neutronic mine?, The Krenim time weapon?, Transphasic torpedoes?, Ablative armour?, transporters that bypass shields?, Shield draining torpedoes?, Magnetometric guided charges?, Q-guns?, The Phoenix rift?, The Omega particle?,

Most of those I've already countered multiple times, but others you haven't actually brought to me yet.

gtg, I'll respond to the rest later (as in tomorrow probably)

jaden101

Then we got into the debate/argument proper?...Ok.

Thank you. The whole episode is available on youtube should you wish to see it in its entirety. Obviously the quality isn't good though.

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

There's the details of the treaty of Algeron. It is odd though because the Romulans had no contact with anyone for 53 years after the signing of the treaty so unless there was some espionage and spying on the Federation during that time then they wouldn't have known whether the federation were developing cloaks or not.

They are official though. Just not taken into consideration in the main timeline of ST. Especially given that many of the works have conflicting stories.

SW itself also has 4 levels of "canon" and a further 9 of "officiality". Much of which contradicts other parts of canon.

You made the original claim of billions of times more powerful. I knew it was bullshit but didn't have my figures on hand and I knew i'd already countered the point in another thread. I responded anyway and you didn't accept the argument so I then dug out the old figures (which are 1st level canon) and gave them to you. You then attempt to criticise me for changing my approach to the point despite asking me to do so on this any many other occasions in this thread. (Most of which I don't need to as I've clarified my points to a ridiculous extent and your refusal to acknowlege them is you just being obtuse and feigning a lack of understanding (i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in that you may actually understand my points but just don't want to admit they destroy yours) is not a reason for anything i've posted being invalid.

Your asking for more information on them isn't a counter. I've provided more than enough canon information on the weapons. You simply don't want to acknowlege that I have so you can still insist that i haven't proven their effectiveness against SW and how SW has no counter for them.

So again I ask for the counter of one weapon...The Krenim timeship. How would SW weapons destroy a ship that exists outwith their own plane of existence and can fire weapons which materialise inside their plane of existence after bypassing their shields. How does SW prevent the timeship from going to any and all SW systems and simply erasing ever major technologically advanced species in the SW universe from existence so that they effectively get put back to the stone age?

I look forward to your reply tomorrow.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
Then we got into the debate/argument proper?...Ok.

sort of

Originally posted by jaden101

Thank you. The whole episode is available on youtube should you wish to see it in its entirety. Obviously the quality isn't good though.

I looked at the page, but I really don't see how this brings down SW. This one weapon was from a different timeline, and even if we allow it, the Federation was able to successfully develop shields that protect against it, and since SW is far superior to the Federation in terms of both technological might and industrial power, they should be able to too. Even if not, they could capture a ship loaded with them and reverse engineer them. Although this really doesn't matter since it's from a different timeline.

Originally posted by jaden101

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

There's the details of the treaty of Algeron. It is odd though because the Romulans had no contact with anyone for 53 years after the signing of the treaty so unless there was some espionage and spying on the Federation during that time then they wouldn't have known whether the federation were developing cloaks or not.

Which is my point, but oh well...even with that however, cloaks don't cloak gravitational fields either, and I highly doubt that ST would have the resources to cloak every single ship as well.

Originally posted by jaden101

They are official though. Just not taken into consideration in the main timeline of ST. Especially given that many of the works have conflicting stories.

SW itself also has 4 levels of "canon" and a further 9 of "officiality". Much of which contradicts other parts of canon.

Really? I've checked multiple sources and they all say that ST books aren't considered to be canon.

Originally posted by jaden101

You made the original claim of billions of times more powerful. I knew it was bullshit but didn't have my figures on hand and I knew i'd already countered the point in another thread. I responded anyway and you didn't accept the argument so I then dug out the old figures (which are 1st level canon) and gave them to you. You then attempt to criticise me for changing my approach to the point despite asking me to do so on this any many other occasions in this thread. (Most of which I don't need to as I've clarified my points to a ridiculous extent and your refusal to acknowlege them is you just being obtuse and feigning a lack of understanding (i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in that you may actually understand my points but just don't want to admit they destroy yours) is not a reason for anything i've posted being invalid.

"despite asking me to do so on this any many other occasions in this thread" what??? I asked if ST's equivalent of an Aclamator is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and yet you suddenly changed your argument. Is it just a coincidence then that you got the figures on hand right after I asked you a question that you wouldn't be able to answer?

Originally posted by jaden101

Your asking for more information on them isn't a counter. I've provided more than enough canon information on the weapons. You simply don't want to acknowlege that I have so you can still insist that i haven't proven their effectiveness against SW and how SW has no counter for them.

I've countered Q guns as they are part of the Q and therefore aren't allowed via the thread specifications.
I've countered solar system destroyers as SW has them too.
Some of the weapons aren't anything special, just more powerful than usual guns...hurray?
Your main point seems to be phased weapons, but none seemed to have been invented by the main timeline, and even then SW weapons would pretty much tear through ST shields as if they weren't there anyway, sort of like "phasing (in this case tearing)" through them. Also, wasn't the Enterprise able to survive several hits from these torpedos? This implies that the torpedos wouldn't have the firepower to take down a SD before the SD destroys the starship that's using it.

Originally posted by jaden101

So again I ask for the counter of one weapon...The Krenim timeship. How would SW weapons destroy a ship that exists outwith their own plane of existence and can fire weapons which materialise inside their plane of existence after bypassing their shields. How does SW prevent the timeship from going to any and all SW systems and simply erasing ever major technologically advanced species in the SW universe from existence so that they effectively get put back to the stone age?

First of all, since SW spans quite a while of history, is there any evidence to suggest that this weapon can erase a million or so years of history?

Second of all, it only travels at warp 6, so it would take quite a while for it to go to each and every major SW planet and erase them all, as well as the SW fleets.

Third of all, as I mentioned earlier, SW could learn to develop temporal shields just like the less militaristic, less advanced and not as rich Federation did in a shorter amount of time than what SW would have (due to the vast number of planets to spare).

Originally posted by jaden101

I look forward to your reply tomorrow.

You're going through one of your nice phases again.

jaden101

It's not from a different timeline. It's weapon CREATES a different timeline every time it's fired. Which is why it would decimate SW without affecting ST at the same time. Because none of the species from each have ever encountered each other. (Shame it may well wipe out ET's species though.)

Were also not going on what they might be able to do, are we? Were going on what's actually canon. SW doesn't have temporal shielding.

Again your applying conflicting parameters to the 2 factions in order to gain yourself an advantage. You're effectively proposing that resources and mixing of technology can be mixed and shared in regards to SW but disallowing the same thing to ST.

Either each species gets what they have on screen and in canon/officiality or they can share tech with one another and resources to build those pieces of tech in large quantities are unlimited. So which is it to be?

Sources please?

How is the enterprise ST's equivalent of an acclamator? It's not a frigate...It's not a Warship.

I can link to the post with those figures that I put in the other thread months and months ago seeing as you seem to be implying that i've just made them up to counter your argument.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=499313&pagenumber=6

From January 1st (Happy new year) It's about 2/3 the way down.

They were weapons weilded by humans to fight the Q.

The Borg weapons doesn't destroy solar systems...It destroys areas thousands of times bigger than solar systems. An area of 4 light years...In comparison, our solar system is some 20 light minutes big.

It's wiped entire species from ever existing so my guess would be yes.

Did you deliberately not read the part where the timeship exists outside of space and time and so can't be hit?

So no...The SD would be utterly incapable of destroying it.

You didn't even restrict other timelines anyway. I can only presume you're trying to do so now to further gimp ST in order to scrape a win. Regardless....Once again, the Krenim and the timeship exist in the main timeline. It's the use of the ship and the weapon that changes the timeline.

You obviously didn't watch the episode or read up on how the weapon works. It doesn't have to travel to every planet. Once it fires on one, a temporal wave travels through the galaxy and every related person or technology that was on the target planet is erased. Take for example if they fired on Corascant and stoppe it from ever being populated. Every person that was ever born and every technological advancement that was ever started on that planet would be erased from history. That means every decendant of any person ever born on that planet would be erased from history.

Given how so intertwined the species are on SW this would be utterly devastating to it's timeline.

What if it fired on Kamino?...The Clone troops would never have existed. Every piece of technology ever created by Kaminoans would vanish.

Again, we're not dealing in what they could do. We're dealing in what they have done. The only way this applies legitimately is actually in ST's favour...Not SW. In that the Borg, by what they do onscreen, assimilate other species technology. If they assimilated a single SD then they would automatically have all the knowledge about their armnaments and be able to adapt to them rendering them useless. Although up until now, I haven't played that card yet as there's been no need (still isn't)

I'm in a good mood.

Nothing says we can't be civil.

Hewhoknowsall

Originally posted by jaden101
It's not from a different timeline. It's weapon CREATES a different timeline every time it's fired. Which is why it would decimate SW without affecting ST at the same time. Because none of the species from each have ever encountered each other. (Shame it may well wipe out ET's species though.)

Really? Memory Alpha says that the events transpired in an alternate timeline.

Originally posted by jaden101

Were also not going on what they might be able to do, are we? Were going on what's actually canon. SW doesn't have temporal shielding.

Neither did ST before they encountered the weapon and quite quickly adapted to it.

Originally posted by jaden101

Again your applying conflicting parameters to the 2 factions in order to gain yourself an advantage. You're effectively proposing that resources and mixing of technology can be mixed and shared in regards to SW but disallowing the same thing to ST.

Either each species gets what they have on screen and in canon/officiality or they can share tech with one another and resources to build those pieces of tech in large quantities are unlimited. So which is it to be?

You don't get it. They can SHARE tech and resources, but they DON'T HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES TO CLOAK EVERY SINGLE SHIP!!! Even if they share resources, they won't be able to get enough to cloak every ship: the more factions, the more resources that can be shared, but the more ships you'll have to cloak as well (as you'll have to cloak the ships from said faction). Therefore, they can share resources, but they'll all have to cloak their ships, which wouldn't be all that feasible.

Originally posted by jaden101

Sources please?

Go to google and type in Star Trek canon. Seriously. Basically every page you read says that ST books =/= canon.

Originally posted by jaden101

How is the enterprise ST's equivalent of an acclamator? It's not a frigate...It's not a Warship.

I can link to the post with those figures that I put in the other thread months and months ago seeing as you seem to be implying that i've just made them up to counter your argument.

Um...yeah, you sort of misunderstood what I said. I asked if ST's equivalent of a SD is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise, and of course I wasn't referring to the Enterprise when I said "ST's equivalent"; why would I ask if the Enterprise is billions of times more powerful than the Enterprise?

Weren't those quotes from more advanced Enterprises?

Originally posted by jaden101

They were weapons weilded by humans to fight the Q.

But they were invented by the Q continuum, right?

Originally posted by jaden101

The Borg weapons doesn't destroy solar systems...It destroys areas thousands of times bigger than solar systems. An area of 4 light years...In comparison, our solar system is some 20 light minutes big.

So it DESTROYED everything within 4 light years? If so, then that's cool and useful for ST...but doesn't amount to an automatic victory. Sure it could destroy a star system and everything within 4 light years, but since stars are generally located quite a while away, it is likely that the weapon wouldn't be able to engulf many star systems at once; maybe at most 2 or 3, which is really just a slight improvement to the Sun Crusher.

Originally posted by jaden101

It's wiped entire species from ever existing so my guess would be yes.

It's wiped out colonies from ever existing, but how long had those colonies existed?

Originally posted by jaden101

Did you deliberately not read the part where the timeship exists outside of space and time and so can't be hit?

So no...The SD would be utterly incapable of destroying it.

Again, SW could develop temporal shields, or if not, the fact that the ship only travels at warp 6 would mean that by the time it had gotten a significant distance, SW would likely have won.

Plus, what about its fuel and such?

Originally posted by jaden101

You didn't even restrict other timelines anyway. I can only presume you're trying to do so now to further gimp ST in order to scrape a win. Regardless....Once again, the Krenim and the timeship exist in the main timeline. It's the use of the ship and the weapon that changes the timeline.

I said a few pages ago that we aren't allowing alternate timelines...and you didn't voice ANY complaint...until now, because including them really is the only way that ST stands a significant chance.

Originally posted by jaden101

You obviously didn't watch the episode or read up on how the weapon works. It doesn't have to travel to every planet. Once it fires on one, a temporal wave travels through the galaxy and every related person or technology that was on the target planet is erased. Take for example if they fired on Corascant and stoppe it from ever being populated. Every person that was ever born and every technological advancement that was ever started on that planet would be erased from history. That means every decendant of any person ever born on that planet would be erased from history.

Given how so intertwined the species are on SW this would be utterly devastating to it's timeline.

What if it fired on Kamino?...The Clone troops would never have existed. Every piece of technology ever created by Kaminoans would vanish.

Really? Then how come it never tried firing on a key planet such as Earth, which would've wiped out all of humanity from ever being? Or Vulcan? Or any major planet? And no, since it only travels at warp 6 it would take ages to reach Coruscant, in which case by that time SW could've evacuated it or something (does that work? Does the weapon target the people or the planet itself?)

True...if it could actually reach one of the planets.

Kamino is a very seclusive world that most didn't even know existed, so how will ST even know about it?

Originally posted by jaden101

Again, we're not dealing in what they could do. We're dealing in what they have done. The only way this applies legitimately is actually in ST's favour...Not SW. In that the Borg, by what they do onscreen, assimilate other species technology. If they assimilated a single SD then they would automatically have all the knowledge about their armnaments and be able to adapt to them rendering them useless. Although up until now, I haven't played that card yet as there's been no need (still isn't)

Well then, let's just compromise:

Option 1: No adapting at all, but that's the same for the Borg.
Option 2: Yes adapting

Which one would you prefer?

Originally posted by jaden101

I'm in a good mood.

Nothing says we can't be civil.

And notice how I am suddenly being nice as well (even though my mood isn't necessarily good or bad)?

You are implying that you weren't being civil before.

jaden101

AFTER the weapon is used. It existed in the standard timeline until the ship erases itself and establishes a completely new and what can be considered the alternative timeline (bit of an odd paradox to think that all the events after "year of hell" are reall the alternative timeline)

Point is they did...On screen. SW have not.

What's your basis for presuming they don't have enough resources? A cloaking device is, after all, only a small piece of kit. You claimed that it might be due to the inability to generate enough energy but if they can share technology then they would also share the ability to generate energy more efficiently as well.

I would also argue that, canonically, there is more planets either named or given in numbers on ST than SW and so they would actually have MORE resources in terms of raw materials.

It can be looked on in 2 ways. Some argue that anything not written by Gene Roddenberry is not canon yet he, himself rubbished that idea by saying that he wanted ST to go on after his death. If it's not to be considered canon that that discounts 6 movies and 3 tv series. Clearly silly. He also considered his own novelisation of a movie (written by him) as non canon yet other publications as canon.

One thing related to both the above issues is that the new movie is considered canon yet is an alternative timeline.

I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to what the equivalent would be.

The difference being that it can be deployed anywhere. The sun crushers has to be deployed in a solar system. If ST species decided to keep the bulk outside of solar systems in order to neutralise the sun crusher then they could but SW couldn't do the same with regards to the MKNM. Besides ST already has an equivalent of the sun crusher in the form of the trilithium torpedo which one man built several of on his own.

It generally wasn't colonies. It was homeworlds in order to destroy entire species. It's never stated how long those species existed but it's irrelevant if you deploy it against a homeworld anyway as it's where that species evolved in the 1st place.

Simple question. Does SW have any mention of temporal shields? The answer is obviously no. To argue that they might develop them is quite obviously not canon and a nonsense argument and I think you know that. It would descend into "Well ST might do this to counter that" and vice versa...With none of it based on what was actually in the respective films/shows etc.

You're also arguing FOR the sharing of technology. Thus I can argue that the Borg would share their transwarp tech with the Krenim and so it could be deployed anywhere in the galaxy within minutes.

The ship didn't need fuel as its temporal core existed outside of time and so, like the people on the ship, would effectively exist forever.

So you're admitting that you're trying to gimp ST so they don't have a chance. Sounds like an admission of defeat to me.

Again we come back to the "sharing technology" argument that you're fond of.

Well that's a bit of a transparent ruse isn't it? No subtlety at all. If I say adaptation should be allowed then you say that SW can adapt to temporal weapons (despite there being no evidence for them being able to) despite the fact that the Borg canonically adapt by assimilation on numerous occassions. Your proposed trade off is me allowing SW to do something they don't do onscreen in order to allow ST to do something they do do onscreen. Hardly fair is it?