How much Batprep is too much?

-Pr-

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Wait a minute.

"Return of Supergirl"?

Are you talking about the following?

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http://oi54.tinypic.com/1zg7o1i.jpg
http://oi56.tinypic.com/2e4hp2f.jpg

Source: Superman/Batman #12
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Artist: Michael Turner
Date: September 2004
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yep, that one.

Originally posted by juggerman
My thoughts exactly

thumb up

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-
The fight with Darkseid in Return of Supergirl comes to mind.

Thanks for confirming the episode.

---------------------------------------------

Alright.

I can see from the dates in this forum things can go a VERY long time without getting answered. Going back 3 pages in the "Versus" forum for instance, usually covers less than 4 days. Going back 3 pages in THIS forum actually covers nearly 4 YEARS. (Some of the entries, unbelievably, were last answered in 2009.)

So ... I'm going to hazard a guess here.

You think that the showing is above what "Batprep" should be able to accomplish because Batman seems to be enduring angry blows from a being who punches as hard, if not harder than, Superman.

Such blows should render a normal man to paste because THIS being, unlike Superman, is not holding back.

The stealing of an infantryman's armor should, ultimately, be about as effective as wearing a suit of eggshells.

Batman should be dead.

Is that your thinking here, and why you don't like the scene?

-Pr-

Yeah, basically. Darkseid punching him like that should have killed him, armour or not.

Though I don't think he punches harder than Superman, even if that's a minor point.

JakeTheBank

Necrobump ftw?

I always felt his prepping against Superman, while plausible occasionally veers into the territory of insulting Superman's intelligence as a character.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, basically. Darkseid punching him like that should have killed him, armour or not.

Though I don't think he punches harder than Superman, even if that's a minor point.

Couple things you're missing.

1) We don't know how hard Darkseid is actually punching Batman.
Contrary to popular belief, Darkseid IS capable of, and actually in the HABIT of, holding back his full, true, anihilating power in many confrontations. Nowhere does he have more reason to do so than here, where Batman's death would, de facto, mean the destruction of Darkseid's entire kingdom and planet.

2) The armor Batman is wearing is Apokoliptan, not Earth made.
We already have proof positive that some of those suits, even with seemingly unprotected heads, give remarkable protection to their wearer. Lex Luthor's "gundam" or warsuit is Apolkoliptan, for instance, and he's used it to meet both Superman and Supergirl on fairly even terms and gotten into very involved throwdowns with them.

3) It isn't that Apokoliptan armor being mentioned as the reason Batman survived. It's Barda's Mother Box.
And Mother Boxes have a history and reputation for doing PRECISELY what we presumably see happening in that encounter:

(from Wikipedia, Mother Box powers and abilities)
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Mother Boxes can access the energy of the Source for various effects; they can change the gravitational constant of an area, transfer energy from one place to another, sense danger, sense life, create force fields, rearrange molecular structure of matter, absorb or project powerful shock blast, create electro-webs, control the mental state of a host, communicate telepathically with a host or other life form, manipulate the life-force of a host to sustain it past fatal injuries, open and close boom tubes, take over and control non-sentient machines, evolve non-sentient machines, merge sentient beings into a single more powerful being, sustain a life form in a hostile environment such as space, and do many other things. Mother Boxes have an affinity for the Source and are believed to draw their power from it. In that sense, they can be seen as a computer that links man to God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Darkseid encounter in Superman/Batman #12 is not an instance of Batgod.

It's an instance of "god of the machine" ... named Mother Box.

-Pr-

I had taken all of that in to account, tbh.

Can you prove that a forcefield was created?

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-

Can you prove that a forcefield was created?

-Pr-

Ah, okay then. I'd forgotten about that.

Still, it does seem excessive that a man, even a man as insanely talented as Bruce, would be able to take hits like that from Darkseid.

It's not like Darkseid had any reason to hold back, either.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-

It's not like Darkseid had any reason to hold back...

This is actually the genius of the scene.
Darkseid has EVERY reason to hold back from killing Bruce, though not reason to avoid trying to intimidate Bruce with the pain of a physical attack.

If Batman gives in, he loses his bargaining chip, the planet kingdom of Apokolips. On the other hand, if Batman is unable to disarm the bombs, the planet and everything on it is forfeit. Darkseid will have power over nothing but a dead asteroid field -- assuming he himself survives.

So Darkseid cannot kill Batman until the planet is safe from destruction.

But Batman won't back back down. He knows he can't.
His only option IS the nuclear option.
And Darkseid recognizes that fact.

On some level, Darkseid probably also recognizes that he IS being given respect: His word to release and then leave Kara alone is sufficient for people that would willingly lay down their lives fighting against him to simply proceed on their way.
He's just venting whatever frustration he can release on Bruce before he gives in.

-Pr-

I honestly don't think Darkseid would have hesitated to kill Bruce, and then try to disarm them himself.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-
I honestly don't think Darkseid would have hesitated to kill Bruce, and then try to disarm them himself.

If Darkseid were merely ruled by passion and revenge, I would agree with you. He's not; he's usually most concerned with gaining and maintaining power. He wouldn't have much power if his palace, population, and planet disappeared in an eye blink.
Think he's going to risk all that for the sake of crushing some poor deluded fool in a Dracula outfit?

There would be other days.

And he knew it.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Necrobump ftw?

erm

Am I the reason your thread didn't get a hit in its first 3 years?

Choose an ACTIVE forum next time.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

I always felt prepping against Superman, while plausible, occasionally veers into the territory of insulting Superman's intelligence as a character.

This statement is too open-ended.

Which encounters are you thinking of when you type this?

Dark Knight Returns? Red Son?
New Frontier? Hush? Teen Titans?

Frankly, beyond carrying a piece of kryptonite in his pouch, I don't see where Batman normally takes NEARLY the precautions that he should against Clark or people like him.

The bulk of his truly thought-out engagements seem to occur in non-mainstream books.

-Pr-

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
If Darkseid were merely ruled by passion and revenge, I would agree with you. He's not; he's usually most concerned with gaining and maintaining power. He wouldn't have much power if his palace, population, and planet disappeared in an eye blink.
Think he's going to risk all that for the sake of crushing some poor deluded fool in a Dracula outfit?

There would be other days.

And he knew it.

I have read a little about Darkseid, you know. stick out tongue

juggerman

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Thanks for confirming the episode.

---------------------------------------------

Alright.

I can see from the dates in this forum things can go a VERY long time without getting answered. Going back 3 pages in the "Versus" forum for instance, usually covers less than 4 days. Going back 3 pages in THIS forum actually covers nearly 4 YEARS. (Some of the entries, unbelievably, were last answered in 2009.)

So ... I'm going to hazard a guess here.

You think that the showing is above what "Batprep" should be able to accomplish because Batman seems to be enduring angry blows from a being who punches as hard, if not harder than, Superman.

Such blows should render a normal man to paste because THIS being, unlike Superman, is not holding back.

The stealing of an infantryman's armor should, ultimately, be about as effective as wearing a suit of eggshells.

Batman should be dead.

Is that your thinking here, and why you don't like the scene?

I was actually fine with him taking a beating from Darkseid since, as Blue points out, he knew Batman was needed to disarm the weapons.

The issue i had with this was the fact that Batman just got to the planet and in about 37 seconds cracked Darkseid's security codes and reprogramed them regardless of the fact that it was alien tech, possibly some of the best in the universe, and i was just accepted that this was well within his ability.

Yet his own systems get hacked, he gets outsmarted regularly enough by his villians, and Superman comments on how he could improve Batman's shit but doesn't cuz his Bat-feeling would get hurt.

HOGWASH I SAY!

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
This statement is too open-ended.

Which encounters are you thinking of when you type this?

Dark Knight Returns? Red Son?
New Frontier? Hush? Teen Titans?

Frankly, beyond carrying a piece of kryptonite in his pouch, I don't see where Batman normally takes NEARLY the precautions that he should against Clark or people like him.

The bulk of his truly thought-out engagements seem to occur in non-mainstream books.

Dark Knight Returns is a good example. He shows up to "talk" to Bruce and Batman is standing there in armor shooting rockets at him. At that point STOP F*CKING TALKING AND FIGHT! You know damn well he will not go willingly so why the hell are you trying to talk him into it? They really had to make Clark forget everything he's ever said/known about Bruce to actually net a win for the Bat

JakeTheBank

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
erm

Am I the reason your thread didn't get a hit in its first 3 years?

Choose an ACTIVE forum next time.

This statement is too open-ended.

Which encounters are you thinking of when you type this?

Dark Knight Returns? Red Son?
New Frontier? Hush? Teen Titans?

Frankly, beyond carrying a piece of kryptonite in his pouch, I don't see where Batman normally takes NEARLY the precautions that he should against Clark or people like him.

The bulk of his truly thought-out engagements seem to occur in non-mainstream books.

Lol, what? My comment was more in shock that anyone replied to a three year old thread that I even forgot about making, not you specifically replying to it. And I'll make posts in whatever forum I feel like, thanks.

Batman in general when he's paired up against Superman often has the benefit of one sided prep, weakness exploitation of some type, while Superman himself is nerfed. When Batman uses his Kryptonite, Superman winds up being sent for a loop...yet in Superman's own issues, the guy can endure and tank a ridiculous amount of Kryptonite before falling. Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

I'll make posts in whatever forum I feel like, thanks.

You will post in the "Versus" forum and like it, Jake! mad

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Batman in general when he's paired up against Superman often has the benefit of one sided prep, weakness exploitation of some type, while Superman himself is nerfed.

PLEASE be more specific.

In almost none of the stories that I've read did Superman have any REASON to prepare for Batman, only the opposite.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

When Batman uses his Kryptonite, Superman winds up being sent for a loop...yet in Superman's own issues, the guy can endure and tank a ridiculous amount of Kryptonite before falling.
Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.

Have you considered that it's precisely BECAUSE Superman knows Batman that he gives little thought to Bruce as adversary?

Superman, arguably more than any hero this side of Spider-Man, knows responsibility comes with power -- and the potential to abuse it.

Superman's nightmare is himself out of control, shattering the lives of those he cares about. Not only has he several times TOLD Bruce that he's counting on him to prevent that, he's equipped his friend for the task. Remember that, in most mainstream tellings, Batman's kryptonite ring was actually SUPERMAN's kryptonite ring GIVEN to Batman.

Superman has purposeful DISincentive to arm himself against Batman. He WANTS his friend to be able to stop him should the need arise.

-Pr-

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.

thumb up

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
thumb up

I have a feeling actually examining this point would lead you guys to a different conclusion
or reveal that special circumstances were in place to override the fact that they know each other.

Perhaps I can illustrate.

Here are the most famous instances Superman versus Batman encounters that I personally know of.

I understand that your list may vary, anyone who wishes is not only welcome but ENCOURAGED to present examples of what THEY mean.

(alphabetical order)

1. Brave and the Bold (Cartoon TV Show)

-- Superman knows Batman but is under the influence of Red Kryptonite

2. Dark Knight Returns

-- Superman has never fought Bruce before.

-- Has no idea Bruce found a way to synthesize kryptonite.

-- To my knowledge, never found any human opponent able to defeat him until the bomb was released;
has no reason to think the aging 50 year plus Bruce Wayne will be the first.

3. Dark Knight Strikes Again

-- Could have no clue Bruce would have essentially tripled his stock of kryptonite since their last meeting.

-- Has most of the fight knocked out of him by Bruce's remnant "Justice League" before he faces Bruce himself.

4. Hush

-- Under the influence of Poison Ivy's pheremones and synthetic kryptonite.

5. New Frontier (comics)

-- First time encounter

6. Red Son

-- First time encounter.

-- Has NO idea the special redlight floodlamps will take away his powers.

7. Sacrifice

-- Nearly completely under the influence of Max Lord.

-- Thinks he is fighting another opponent entirely.

8. Teen Titans (Issue #50, Volume 3)

-- Ambushed. Has no idea Batman is waiting to take him down.

-- Has no idea Batman in this case is Tim Drake, either.

-Pr-

Not sure I follow your exact reasoning/point. Might just be misunderstanding, so please, elaborate.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not sure I follow your exact reasoning/point. Might just be misunderstanding, so please, elaborate.

Well, again, this is what I was responding to:

Originally posted by JakeTheBank

Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.

And I don't think most of the "Batman takes on/down Superman" stories I've seen give much justification for saying this.

For most of them are either 1st time encounters or stories where one or the other hero is mentally compromised.

Here, let me search for what's in easy reach and illustrate.

#8 on my list. Batman takes down Superman in Teen Titans #50.
"Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman"? Doesn't work here. Doesn't work at all. In fact, Superman scarcely realizes he's in a fight with Batman, which is over by the time he does.

bluewaterrider

Say, P.R., long as I got you here, let's see what your response to the following is.

For Darkseid, despite his evil, has a history of being a foe with honor as great as that of Dr. Doom, and, unless you want to say he's given to violent and rash outbursts, which to some extent I agree with, I don't, overall, understand why you think Darkseid would be trying to kill Batman in that "Return of Kara Zor-el" saga.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

Contrary to popular belief, Darkseid IS capable of, and actually in the HABIT of, holding back his full, true, anihilating power in many confrontations.

Understand that I am referring only to post-Crisis history now.
I don't know how Darkseid ranked against anyone before then.

Post-1985, however, even the first encounter between these 2 illustrated that Superman is only
a match for the Master of Apokolips because Darkseid allows that to be the case:

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http://oi56.tinypic.com/1fdc0k.jpg
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Source: Action Comics #586, Volume 1
Writer/Penciller: John Byrne
Inker: Dick Giordano
Date: March 1987
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Action_Comics_Vol_1_586

At this point, you will balk, and understandably so.

Darkseid himself says he is beaten,
that Superman had thus won a safe trip home.

How, then, can anyone say otherwise?

Here's the problem:

Darkseid CHOSE to send Superman safely home.

He could have sent him anywhere.

What if, instead of adhering to a code of honor, he had decided on a place that was NOT safe to beam Superman?

If you have a hard time imagining that scenario, let the JLA help you envision one of the options Darkseid actually had at his disposal:

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http://oi56.tinypic.com/2z68383.jpg

Source: Justice League of America #24, Volume 2
Writer: Dwayne McDuffie
Penciller: Ed Benes
Date: October 2008
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Justice_League_of_America_Vol_2_24

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I have a feeling actually examining this point would lead you guys to a different conclusion
or reveal that special circumstances were in place to override the fact that they know each other.

Perhaps I can illustrate.

4. Hush

-- Under the influence of Poison Ivy's pheremones and synthetic kryptonite.

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http://oi54.tinypic.com/29azm7t.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/2q39ljt.jpg
http://oi52.tinypic.com/9lim2b.jpg

Source: "Hush" Trade
Batman #612, Volume 1

Writer: Jeph Loeb
Penciller: Jim Lee
Date: April 2003
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Batman_Vol_1_612

Originally posted by bluewaterrider

6. Red Son

-- First time encounter.

-- Has NO idea the special redlight floodlamps will take away his powers ...

-Pr-

If it were up to me, pretty much every issue of McDuffie's JLA would be stricken from the record when it comes to Superman.

Esau Cairn

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Writers in general seem to forget that Superman knows Batman just as well as Batman knows Superman.

It really breaks down to one-sided argument & that is specifically WHO the writer is writing for.
Is he writing for a Batman story or a Superman one?

It's also slightly ridiculous to compare a serious story line (like Miller's DKR) to a children's cartoon series like Brave/Bold to prove a point.

-Pr-

It doesn't help that Miller hates Superman either.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-

Miller hates Superman ...

confused

"Hates"?

You think something OTHER than love prompted him to pen scenes like the following?

-Pr-

Not sure what you mean, unless that's dynamite sarcasm.

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by Esau Cairn

It's ... slightly ridiculous to compare a serious story line (like Miller's DKR) to a children's cartoon series like Brave/Bold to prove a point.

Indeed, Esau Cairn, indeed ...

Originally posted by Esau Cairn

Well ... straight up, my opinion's gonna be biased.

I was in my mid-twenties when the graphic novel was released & at the time it was considered & labelled as, "The very first comic, written for adults."
Frank Miller's rendition of The Batman was praised as "The Bible for the Batman Universe." Countless writers afterwards respected the notion that this would be how Batman's future would become & wrote their stories to hint both at his retirement & senility. Even Miller's "abstract" art was viewed as both a pleasant change & a challenge to the clean cut, conventional/cliched illustrations of other heroes at the time.

So to finally see an animated version that follows the storyline BUT tones down Batman's senility & suicidal monologue... is in my opinion
a bit of a disappointment but at the same time enjoyable & tame enough that I can watch it with my 7 yr old son & not deal with issues of "Why does Batman have a death-wish?"
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=14212262&highlight=userid%3A124764#post14212262

bluewaterrider

Originally posted by -Pr-
Not sure I follow your exact reasoning/point. Might just be misunderstanding, so please, elaborate.

I've gone through everything except Dark Knight Returns, New Frontier, which, unfortunately, I no longer have, and the Brave and the Bold showing. I'll post a few of the first and the clip of the last if my Internet holds out ...

bluewaterrider

... and this other image from Dark Knight Strikes Again, too, for I've seldom seen a more over-the-top beating than the one Miller has Batman administer here ...

bluewaterrider

To reiterate the point, though, nearly every encounter here has something that either disproves friendly familiarity with Batman's modus operandi, or some circumstance that overrides it.

Here, again, in Dark Knight Returns, Superman does not know that Bruce has now a weapon that can seriously hurt him. He never gave Bruce a kryptonite ring in this reality, and apparently the stuff is very hard to find. More than this, Bruce is a shell of his former self, physically, on the run from the law, and, save for the gang members that help him through Gotham's blackout, is not known to have any allies save the girl Robin.

Exactly how could he be expected to prepare for the following, then?

bluewaterrider

4 more submissions.
Then, barring one final ordered run-down, I'll be satisfied that you've gotten the clarification you asked for.

Only debating the order here, and perhaps whether to be courteous to one other respondent right now ...

---------------------------------

Alright, let's have this one, seemingly unrelated to anything as a pseudo-interlude:

Like Hulks and papier mache ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl_5UwS57X8

bluewaterrider

Now submission 2, which is incredibly iconic in some circles ...

(Did Frank Miller have a famous forgetful president in mind when he drew this? Can't help shake that idea ...)

bluewaterrider

Submission 3, which is similarly iconic, perhaps the shot ingrained in people's minds more than any, perhaps even why most people think this fight would go the way it so often does in polls:

bluewaterrider

... but, finally, submission 4, and a showing that challenges the idea the Batman and his batprep is always portrayed nowadays as too much for even the Man of Steel in various media.

I think the work of the animators is brilliant in terms of parody, homage, and choreography. It may not have the serious tone and depth of the work that inspired it, owing far more to the spirit of that "cardboard" episode just shown than DKR, but it's a masterpiece in its own wright ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mETq5daenEE