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Ok, so I'm reading alot about Kotor 2 over on the SomethingAwful site about why its actually a good game. I'm actually starting to remember why I liked the game again, before you guys poo poo'd on it constantly and made me question it. So I wanted to know what you guys thought, you might as well say becuase there isn't much else to talk about anymore and this may lead to an interesting discussion.

Heres what one guy says-'Any Star Wars story is a bad Star Wars story. Seriously, there's no room for nuance and most stories devolve into "isn't this guy great/ a badass" or, even worse, a traditional protagonist/antihero conquering great evil/good BUT WITH A TWIST HAHA BET YOU NEVER SAW THAT COMING! Just like Harry Potter, people buy into it because the setting is compelling and don't realize that virtually everything else is contrived and monochrome.

If it weren't for x-wings, wookies and lightsabers no one would have ever given a poo poo about Star Wars. Obsidian took a good setting and added actual character development and excellent moral dilemmas. Who gives a poo poo if they bent the traditional Star Wars flavor over backwards? It's nothing Lucas himself hasn't done a thousand times. I'm sure a dozen people are going to trample in going on about how Star Wars isn't meant to be pretentious or whatever but there's no reason someone shouldn't be able to take a setting like this that is so appealing and improve it with writing that wouldn't embarrass a College Freshman.'

So.... Thoughts? Did you like Kotor 2? Not like it? Why is it worse than Kotor 1? Better? Whatever, just talk.

Most of the people that I know who liked Kotor 2, liked it for that reason. It was a welcome change of pace. The conflicts were multilayered, the concepts that are often taken for granted e.g. the force, were explored. It brought more to table than you'd normally expect for SW, putting to shame many sw novels.

I didn't think it was a bad game, but it could've been far better. And I still enjoy playing it. I've played through it at least five times.

I've only ever been able to complete it once, and it took me weeks to do it. Every other time I try I get turned off by Kreia's cryptic talk and the general boring play through Peragus and Telos.

That's so true..

PHUCK PERAGUS

Aye Valerian and Lucien said it best. I really enjoyed KotOR alot, it was the second RPG I ever played. (KotOR being first). Though I have completed KotORII 6 times, for each of the different specialisations.

I've gotta agree with Allankles. It was far more deep and complex than pretty much any other Star Wars work out there.

Could have been better.

It wasn't that bad. I, in fact, loved it. Kotor had a great story and ok gameplay elements, but ultimately was incredibly repetetive and it seemed like a huge clusterfVckrush to get your lightsaber with a meager two levels, and then you were a jedi.

Kotor II really expanded on the skill system and added more tiers and better looking combat effects while making it feel like you were becoming more and more powerful, not instantly powerful. The story for kotor II wasn't bad either and was quite deus ex-ish. I mean, the jedi are in hiding, the sith are ****ing everything, and your main goal is just to survive? Not to mention the character developement of the sith. While alot of the game felt unfinished (it largely was), it was an improvement, I thought, due to its deep story and character development, combined with a truly customizeable character and a REAL dark/light side.

That's exactly what sucks. It was a very good game, but just imagine just how good it could've been if it hadn't been rushed and unfinished.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
That's exactly what sucks. It was a very good game, but just imagine just how good it could've been if it hadn't been rushed and unfinished. It didn't really interfere with the gameplay for me it was just disappointing how many cutscenes were quite literally cut from the game that would have been great otherwise.

Well let's not get carried away here it was good for a Star Wars game/piece of media but comparatively speaking it was not a great game and never would have been.

Originally posted by Weltall
Well let's not get carried away here it was good for a Star Wars game/piece of media but comparatively speaking it was not a great game and never would have been.

KOTOR 2 holds a warm place in my heart for taking the traditional star wars adventure, beating the ****ing shit out of it and making a philosophically mature game in the process.

Originally posted by Autokrat
KOTOR 2 holds a warm place in my heart for taking the traditional star wars adventure, beating the ****ing shit out of it and making a philosophically mature game in the process.
Kotor 2 is "philosophically mature?" I think you hit the letter "t" instead of 'n' there. i've never thought that Kotor 2 was as deep as everybody claims. There might be some context that I'm missing, but changing from "lulz teh drk sied is the evilz" to "teh drk sied is anothr towl 2 be uzd" doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. The best I can come up with is that Obsidian lampshaded the traditional RPG twist by not having a game-ending twist. But they still had the Exile be fundamentally different (by virtue of being a wound in the Force) from all of her/your contemporaries.

Edit: don't get me wrong- I voted "hell yes!" I just don't think that it deserves the level of pretentious snobbery that it gets. It was a decent game hindered by cutbacks. Not some kind of philosophical landmark.

Edit PS: Google Chrome does spellcheck in the edit box. Lousy Firefox.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Kotor 2 is "philosophically mature?" I think you hit the letter "t" instead of 'n' there. i've never thought that Kotor 2 was as deep as everybody claims. There might be some context that I'm missing, but changing from "lulz teh drk sied is the evilz" to "teh drk sied is anothr towl 2 be uzd" doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me. The best I can come up with is that Obsidian lampshaded the traditional RPG twist by not having a game-ending twist. But they still had the Exile be fundamentally different (by virtue of being a wound in the Force) from all of her/your contemporaries.

Edit: don't get me wrong- I voted "hell yes!" I just don't think that it deserves the level of pretentious snobbery that it gets. It was a decent game hindered by cutbacks. Not some kind of philosophical landmark.

Edit PS: Google Chrome does spellcheck in the edit box. Lousy Firefox.

Apparently you missed the subtle hints of determinism mixed in with the questions of free will and utilitarianism. While in the grand scheme of gaming, KOTOR II is not titanic, for a Star Wars game it's pretty amazing. It presents ethical dilemmas on a level usually devoid in Star Wars.

"subtle hints of determinism" =/= "wah the Force uses all of us"

"the questions of free will" ...granted.

"utilitarianism" I see how you could get that from "kill many (while EVIL) to save more (by averting True Sith) but the way they showed it seems so juvenile.

Jesus, I'm so glad college is over and that I only had to take 2 philosophy courses.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
"subtle hints of determinism" =/= "wah the Force uses all of us"

"the questions of free will" ...granted.

"utilitarianism" I see how you could get that from "kill many (while EVIL) to save more (by averting True Sith) but the way they showed it seems so juvenile.

You know all that shit about Kreia and echoes? What do you think she was talking about? For the most of the game she was lecturing The Exile on the subtle interplays on cause and effect and how small actions can have far reaching consequences. This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

The Utilitarian aspect wasn't ruined by the game, but by later developments and the fact that SW is juvenile setting to begin with. The fact that the writers could actually interject this difficult ethical dilemma for Revan, with all the limitations of the SW mythos, is rather impressive.

Watchmen is an excellent example of a similar story where one man kills two million people in an act of mass murder to save billions more. Its shocking and horrifying, yet so well done at the same time. Of course Alan Moore doesn't have to deal with the moronic concepts in the SW universe.

Kotor 2 kind of had the same theme as some other SW media. You know, the questioning of the Jedi Order. The Jedi are supposed to be the good guys, yet, there are so many flaws within the Vulcan Jedi Order Code.

This game did the same as Kotor 1. Did the Exile do the right thing by defying the Council and following Revan to war, or should she have waited like the Council did?

Originally posted by Autokrat
You know all that shit about Kreia and echoes? What do you think she was talking about? For the most of the game she was lecturing The Exile on the subtle interplays on cause and effect and how small actions can have far reaching consequences. This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

The Utilitarian aspect wasn't ruined by the game, but by later developments and the fact that SW is juvenile setting to begin with. The fact that the writers could actually interject this difficult ethical dilemma for Revan, with all the limitations of the SW mythos, is rather impressive.

Watchmen is an excellent example of a similar story where one man kills two million people in an act of mass murder to save billions more. Its shocking and horrifying, yet so well done at the same time. Of course Alan Moore doesn't have to deal with the moronic concepts in the SW universe.

Holy shit, I actually got everything you said out of those two movies. Sweet, philosophy genius over here.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Holy shit, I actually got everything you said out of those two movies. Sweet, philosophy genius over here.

Normally I wouldn't feed you, but since you seem really down lately (all this insulting everyone else so you can feel better about yourself) I decided to treat you to some memories of mother Russia.

18KEYv91NYk

Although I suppose that's a little modern for you since as I recall you moved here in the early 90s. Perhaps this one will have more relevance.

EsIw8k8u_1Q

Doesn't that manly music just make you feel like a badass again? Just think, between putting down Lightsnake...

http://i48.tinypic.com/bgtswl.jpg

...and listening to memories of home, you'll be back to realizing just how awesome you are.

My gaming cred is considerably limited, but isn't this basically standard fare nowadays? Neverwinter Nights was all about how what you do will change the course of the world. Jade Empire hinges on your decision about the fate of a... well, empire. From what I've gathered from Nai, The Witcher incorporates the idea of the impact from the little decisions that you make. And, hell, pen and paper D&D, the source of these games, is almost entirely built around the consequences of your (more varied) choices.

Was Kotor 2 really special because it told us that actions have consequences?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
My gaming cred is considerably limited, but isn't this basically standard fare nowadays? Neverwinter Nights was all about how what you do will change the course of the world. Jade Empire hinges on your decision about the fate of a... well, empire. From what I've gathered from Nai, The Witcher incorporates the idea of the impact from the little decisions that you make. And, hell, pen and paper D&D, the source of these games, is almost entirely built around the consequences of your (more varied) choices.

Was Kotor 2 really special because it told us that actions have consequences?

None of them addressed it the way KOTOR 2 did though. In Neverwinter Nights we are not treated to a philosophical discourse on the Chaos Theory. NWN is possessed of of the typical oh hey, defeat the big bag villain or die. You can of course opt to rule the world and be an evil douche, but this hardly constitutes to a lecture on cause and effect.

The Witcher is a good example though, especially with some wonderful arguments against Ethical Egoism woven into a lot of the dialog.

Planescape Torment is another awesome one, dealing mostly with the subjectivity of experience.

Of course helps that Chris Avellone was behind both Torment and KOTOR II. He always seems to try and throw a philosophical twist into his games, excepting the original NWN 2, which blew. Mask of the Betrayer made up for it thankfully, with all the little hints of Divine Command theory strode all over the place.

"the original NWN 2... blew"

Originally posted by Autokrat
Normally I wouldn't feed you, but since you seem really down lately (all this insulting everyone else so you can feel better about yourself) I decided to treat you to some memories of mother Russia.

18KEYv91NYk

Although I suppose that's a little modern for you since as I recall you moved here in the early 90s. Perhaps this one will have more relevance.

EsIw8k8u_1Q

Doesn't that manly music just make you feel like a badass again? Just think, between putting down Lightsnake...

http://i48.tinypic.com/bgtswl.jpg

...and listening to memories of home, you'll be back to realizing just how awesome you are.
That's so nice that you took time out of your busy social life to make me feel like I'm at home (russia lol?) and ignorantly attributing insults to me trying to make myself feel better about myself(el oh el). I guess the ONLY time people insult others is when they're trying to make themselves feel better? Boy, I can sure tell you spend your time around real human beings a LOT.

Originally posted by Autokrat

http://i48.tinypic.com/bgtswl.jpg

...and listening to memories of home, you'll be back to realizing just how awesome you are. Your silly picture did http://www.moviepicturefilm.com/site_2009/wp-content/uploads/gallery/20060919-BORAT.jpgNOT!!!! make me lolzzz

Originally posted by Autokrat
This is rather remarkable for an RPG, much less a Star Wars RPG.

It really isn't; Japanese RPGs are absolutely notorious for exploring deep philosophical themes. If you want a truly philosophically mature RPG, try Xenogears or Xenosaga.

Originally posted by Weltall
It really isn't; Japanese RPGs are absolutely notorious for exploring deep philosophical themes. If you want a truly philosophically mature RPG, try Xenogears or Xenosaga.

To be fair Xenosaga and Xenogears are perhaps the only two JPRGs I like. If only because of all the Nietzschian and Existentialistic themes thrown in.

The best RPG ever made is Mass Effect, hands down.

You're entitled to your incorrect opinion but just about any notable JRPG ass rapes Mass Effect. The #1 spot would have to belong to Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.

Either that or something else that's better. Like mass effect.

It's really a matter of opinion. What makes a good RPG? that's up to you.

Originally posted by Weltall
You're entitled to your incorrect opinion but just about any notable JRPG ass rapes Mass Effect. The #1 spot would have to belong to Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.

I'm curious, but why exactly to you get your panties into a bunch over JRPGs? Its like every time you talk about them you have to look down on WPRGs for some bizarre reason and dismiss some of the best games ever made simply because they don't follow the JRPG format.

for someone who just recently started playing rpg's of any sort, what is the difference in a jrpg and a wrpg?

Originally posted by truejedi
for someone who just recently started playing rpg's of any sort, what is the difference in a jrpg and a wrpg?

JRPGs are linear with no player choice involved. Essentially, they are interactive books in video game format. This isn't a bad thing and there are quite a few badass JRPGs out there. FF III, Chrono Trigger, the above mentioned Xenosaga and Xenogears etc. However a lot of JRPGs suffer from having a retarded teenage emo protagonist with an IQ of about 80 that runs around and bashes things over the head with his huge ass sword. Either that or he's just some 17 year old dumbass no one cares about (points at Last Last Remnant and FFX).

Lost Oddessy is actually a rather good one with a badass plot. Probably because the main character wasn't some dumbass teenager that I want to strangle with my bare hands.

WRPGs are games like Planescape: Torment, KOTOR I & II, Oblivion, and the Fallout games. Usually they are more varied in format and offer player choice as opposed to pushing characters along a predefined plot.

EDIT - The Deus Ex games would also be considered WRPGs.

Deus Ex and the Thief series are some of the best games ever made.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I'm curious, but why exactly to you get your panties into a bunch over JRPGs? Its like every time you talk about them you have to look down on WPRGs for some bizarre reason and dismiss some of the best games ever made simply because they don't follow the JRPG format.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a girl (refer to my member details if you don't believe me) so I'll kindly ask that you speak to be a bit more politely so as not to hurt my feelings.

It's a subject I feel very strongly about and knowing how great JRPGs truly are, when people try to compare them with absolutely sh1t (WRPGs) it sometimes warrants an aggressive and somewhat violent response. It might be similar to if, say, someone tried to compare a modern day, entirely amateur philosopher to one of the great, classical philosophers. It's likely that you would feel strongly in your disagreement and want it be publicly known. Same thing here.

And there are an innumerable amount of bad ass JRPGs out there.

The very top tier of the list would include (but not be limited to):

Star Ocean: Till the End of Time
Tales of Phantasia
Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy IX
Xenogears
Xenosaga I-III
Chrono Trigger
Radical Dreamers (more of a visual novel to be fair)
Chrono Cross
Golden Sun
Golden Sun: The Lost Age
Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King
Suikoden I-V (yes all 5)
Vagrant Story
Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean
Baten Kaitos Origins
Valkyrie Profile
Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria
Radiata Stories
Grandia I-III

BTW:

Originally posted by Autokrat
However a lot of JRPGs suffer from having a retarded teenage emo protagonist with an IQ of about 80 that runs around and bashes things over the head with his huge ass sword.

Name 10.

On topic, guys. If you want to discuss roleplaying I can just move this over to the Video Games forum...

Final fantasy 4 (not teenaged though)
Final fantasy 7
Final fantasy 8
Final Fantasy 10
Grandia 2
Grandia 3
Drakengard
Vagrant Story (the guy may be older, but he looks about 18)
Chrono Cross
Dragon Quest 5 (minus the sword)
Rouge Galaxy (replace emo with loser)
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Baiton Kaitos
Disgaea 2
Blue Dragon (replace sword with dragon)
Infinite Undiscovery
-All include that as a main character.

The thing about Jrpgs is that they lack evolution. Most of the time its the same characters doing the same thing with the same cliques thrown in. Its like when they start a game the Japanese just pull up a chart of recycled archetypes and throw them at the thing and hope something sticks. Hero- male, young, 'troubled past', spiky/odd hair, warrior. Love interest- female, even younger, innocent and naive, long hair or schoolgirl hair, mage. Etc.

edit:Whoops, sorry REX.

I'll break it down simply.

First, let's examine what a roleplaying game actually is.

A roleplaying game, by its basic, general, non-exclusive definition, is a game that is designed to draw the player into the role of the character.

The JRPG approach, in general terms, uses the storytelling technique of escapism, specifically player-into-character, by providing a linear, predetermined storyline for the player to follow and escape into the role of the character. Escapism is something that can be proven to be effective; examples include somebody crying during a particularly sad scene, or coming to hate the villain of the story, or wanting to see the hero win etc. It doesn't necessarily work in all cases; there are certain people who are completely disconnected from the story in that sense. However, this is something that definitely can work, and statistically speaking is something that can be said to work more often than not, and as such it is a valid approach to the objective that the genre is intended to meet.

The WRPG approach, in general terms, uses gameplay mechanics that are intended to create the illusion that the player is in complete control of the character, and that by extension that he is the character, by creating a non linear storyline with choices at his disposal that can result in a number of different storyline outcomes. However, this approach is not something that can be proven to be effective, and basic logic would dictate that it isn't.

Dialogue options generally number in the single digits at most, are not necessarily reflective of the player's personality, and yield into no more than a few potential variable outcomes. The choices at your disposal do not originate from you, the player, but are simply presented to you by the game itself. The total number of available choices that the game presents before you in proportion to the total number of available choices there would realistically be in any given situation is astronomically small. As such, basic logic would dictate that you would have to be of an inhumanly passive nature to feel in control of your character given just how limited the choices before you are, rather than largely restricted and separated from the character. Statistically speaking, humans are not of such a passive nature, and generally will make an innumerable amount of choices that aren't dictated by straightforward rules or routines dictated by others. So while this approach could be effective in some extremely rare, quite frankly odd cases, statistically speaking, it would be extremely ineffective in far more cases than it wouldn't, and I would imagine in the cases of everybody who posts in this forum. So ultimately, the approach quite simply can't be proven to be effective, and logically speaking, it generally wouldn't be.

So while a non linear game can't necessarily be said to be a bad thing, it can be said to be, in all likelihood, a bad roleplaying mechanic, and by extension, a roleplaying game that defines itself by this approach (pretty much every Bethesda game, the Fable games, the KotOR games etc.) can in all likelihood be said to be a bad RPG.

A side effect, as well, is that the creativity of the developers is filtered through multiple different branching storylines, and as such the quality of any single given chosen storyline is not being maximised to the full potential of the developers.

Another quite common side effect is that often, NPC dialogue is designed in a way that it can respond to a number of different dialogue options. This can be especially seen in a lot of Bioware games. The effect that this creates is that the dialogue, in a lot of cases, doesn't feel like it flows naturally.

A number of other side effects can occur due to this approach. The KotOR games, for instance, had a large emphasis on how your choices dictated your alignment, with the whole light side/dark side system. However, rather than putting some real thought into how they would implement this into your choices, the vast majority of these dialogue options corresponded with generic evil/good/neutral mindsets, but beyond that came across as really forced and unrealistic, to the point where these choices weren't so much based around the player's own personality, but around what response he wanted to see the most, or what path he wanted to take.

Really, it's a terrible approach to the genre.

One cannot try to sway personal taste by using logic. It just doesn't work.

(Waits to see who gets the irony)

It's not so much a matter of a taste, but rather a matter of understanding what a roleplaying game is, and seeing what can objectively be stated about it. And the truth is that limited choice based mechanics cannot be said to meet the objective of the genre as well as storyline escapism can.

You typed all of that just to try and prove a subjective opinion?

How is it then, that I can find many WRPGs to be far more engaging and gripping than the majority of JRPGs?

Planescape: Torment
Mass Effect
Dragon Age: Origins
Fallout 3
Baldur's Gate I & II
Neverwinter Nights
KOTOR I & II

I found all those above games to be far more interesting and engrossing than just about all of the JRPGs I've played. There are of course rare exceptions, but almost universally I have never cared about the characters in JRPGs. Perhaps because most of the time, they are completely retarded. If I don't care about the protagonist, then I'm not going to care about the story.

Speaking of character development in JRPGs. I love how GI was bragging about how FF XIII was going to have ambient dialog between party members, as a way to make the storyline more engaging. Funny thing about that, WPRGs have been doing that since 2000.

Fitting into the roles WPRGs give you isn't all that difficult with some imagination.

Never in a JRPG, did I feel like a badass the way I did in Mass Effect. Most of the time with a JRPG, I felt like I was just pushing along some idiotic protagonist from one annoying mission to the other, with little interest in his success.

That limited choice based mechanics = ineffective roleplaying game mechanic to all but the most inhumanly passive people in the world is not an opinion. Given the sheer lack of given options the game presents you with in proportion to the number of total choices there would realistically be in such a situation, all but the previously mentioned select group of people would feel almost entirely restricted and seperated from the character; and thats not even mentioning the divide between the personality of the player and the subtleties of the dialogue presented, which further adds to the seperation between player and character. To feel a strong sense of control over your character, to the point that you felt like you as good as were your character, you'd have to be of an abnormally simple, straightforward, passive nature.



And it was the limited choice at your disposal - entirely - that made you so engaged in the storyline? Because I didn't once say that use of limited choice mechanics prevented the game from drawing the player into the role of the character through other means. Discussing the predetermined storyline merits of these games is another discussion entirely. My argument is that limited choice mechanics, to all but the, again, previously mentioned select group, is not an effective roleplaying game mechanic, and that any RPG that defines itself by such mechanics can be said to be conceptually flawed from its very core for all but that select group of people.

Darth Sexy and BoratBorat (Ivalice) like Mass Effect. Therefore this line is obviously wrong.



For me, yes. There is nothing more satisfying that playing two sides against each other and then backstabbing both in NWN or like selling all your high-level equipment to a store then stealing it back in BG. They make you feel like a badass, becuase it is you thats the badass.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Speaking of character development in JRPGs. I love how GI was bragging about how FF XIII was going to have ambient dialog between party members, as a way to make the storyline more engaging. Funny thing about that, WPRGs have been doing that since 2000.

Cool, JRPGs have been doing that since the 1990s (Tales of Phantasia as an example).

Originally posted by Nephthys
Darth Sexy and BoratBorat (Ivalice) like Mass Effect. Therefore this line is obviously wrong.

If we were to define Mass Effect by its limited choice based mechanics, and assume that an effective roleplaying mechanic is something that enables you to like a roleplaying game, sure.

I must say Nebaris, I don't like any of the games that you seem to enjoy.

Which you do. That really does seem to be your only consistent criticism of them and its apparently enough for you to deem all WRPGS as 'absolutely sh1t' and 'terrible'.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I must say Nebaris, I don't like any of the games that you seem to enjoy.

Hmmm... perhaps I should rethink my opinions.

Funnily enough, I could have sworn you were a Final Fantays VII fan... don't know why though.

Originally posted by Weltall
Funnily enough, I could have sworn you were a Final Fantays VII fan... don't know why though.

Storyline? Hell yea. Gameplay? snore..

Yeah well I can agree with that at least. I wasn't too big a fan of the gameplay either though any lack of gameplay merits isn't really an issue for me when the storyline's that good.

And before anybody asks why I don't simply watch a film or read a book, the truth is that the storylines that these games tell are quite simply superior to any book or movie out there.

Last chance for this to be steered back onto the topic. If it doesn't, I'm closing it.

Personally, I find Kriea to be the best-written character in any game I've played, hands down.

Originally posted by Weltall
In case you haven't noticed, I'm a girl (refer to my member details if you don't believe me) so I'll kindly ask that you speak to be a bit more politely so as not to hurt my feelings.
Hey man you had this same damn argument before. Rex just walked right past you as a sock because your info says girl.

i think rex walked past her because she is acting less like a sock this time.

Somehow, I'm starting to doubt that Neb is actually a girl.

Originally posted by Weltall
You're entitled to your incorrect opinion but just about any notable JRPG ass rapes Mass Effect. The #1 spot would have to belong to Star Ocean: Till the End of Time.

There is no 'incorrect' or 'correct' opinion concerning this matter.

However, I'm curious... Who is the one who decides whether my opinion is 'correct' or not? You? That's not how it works.

Originally posted by Major Valerian
However, I'm curious... Who is the one who decides whether my opinion is 'correct' or not?

You're looking at her. Reported btw.

Reported? You're kidding, right?


Staying on topic, IMO, KOTOR 2 was a better game than most make of it. Just because it had an incomplete story it doesn't mean it wasn't a good game. The fact that the story was incomplete doesn't make it a bad story, the character development was excellent and the gameplay was enjoyable.

Most of the dislike for KotOR 2 comes from the fact that IT DIDNT HAVE AN ENDING!!!!

It was a broken game that was rushed out to market before it was completed. What do you expect? I mean seriously, how many things were promised that didn't happen? HK-50 factory anyone? We were promised Revan would be in the game, not an image of him on Korriban. Why were the poster characters for the game only in it for about an hour collectively? Why was the game always talking about how powerful Nihilus was, but the battle could be won in your sleep? Where was the promised "You are Darth Revan" style twist? And where the hell was the ending?

Are you sure Revan's appearence was promised?

It was. Kotor 2 sucked honestly. Bioware should have handled the sequel. But i am done with star wars.

Originally posted by Tsal Can
Are you sure Revan's appearence was promised?

It was promised, I'll find the source later hopefully (lot of old news to look through). Though I do remember talking to a friend of mine who is an enormous fan of Kotor about the time you battle the fake Revan in the cave on Korriban, and him stating that that does not count as an apparence of Revan. But, I'll see If I can find the article from years ago talking about it.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
It was. Kotor 2 sucked honestly. Bioware should have handled the sequel. But i am done with star wars.

Kotor would've done fine withoug a sequel, but Lucas Arts wanted to make a sequel so as to make more money off the Kotor name. Bioware rarely does sequels to their own games (infact the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Mass Effect 2) and so Kotor 2 was done by Obsidian. I used to condemn Obsidian for the travesty of Kotor 2, but now I realise it is Lucas Arts' fault. LA pushed for the game to be brought out too early, and as a result, it was brought out unfinished. Had Obsidian had the time to do what they wanted with the game, it could have very well been as good as the original.

When it comes down to it though, I have to say the world would have been better off without Kotor 2. I would prefer no sequel to one that was rushed to the market before it was finished... In the end, Kotor 2 is an unfinished game, and I will not support unfinished games being rushed off to market... Just think, if they had the time to finish Kotor 2, we may have had Kotor 3 by now, and perhaps been on the way to Kotor 4... You never know...

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Kotor would've done fine withoug a sequel, but Lucas Arts wanted to make a sequel so as to make more money off the Kotor name. Bioware rarely does sequels to their own games (infact the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Mass Effect 2) and so Kotor 2 was done by Obsidian. I used to condemn Obsidian for the travesty of Kotor 2, but now I realise it is Lucas Arts' fault. LA pushed for the game to be brought out too early, and as a result, it was brought out unfinished. Had Obsidian had the time to do what they wanted with the game, it could have very well been as good as the original.

When it comes down to it though, I have to say the world would have been better off without Kotor 2. I would prefer no sequel to one that was rushed to the market before it was finished... In the end, Kotor 2 is an unfinished game, and I will not support unfinished games being rushed off to market... Just think, if they had the time to finish Kotor 2, we may have had Kotor 3 by now, and perhaps been on the way to Kotor 4... You never know... Don't forget bioware is doing dragon age origins: awakening, a sequel to DAO.

But yeah kotor 2 was rushed.

Awakening is more of an Expansion, not a full-fleged sequel. I think it should go in with things like Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. However, in contrast, Neverwinter Nights 2 (the full-fleged sequel) was created by Obsidian, rather than Bioware.

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
It was promised, I'll find the source later hopefully (lot of old news to look through). Though I do remember talking to a friend of mine who is an enormous fan of Kotor about the time you battle the fake Revan in the cave on Korriban, and him stating that that does not count as an apparence of Revan. But, I'll see If I can find the article from years ago talking about it.

Im pretty sure that the only thing about Revan to make an appearance was his fate, I still have the EGM. Here are some scans though...

http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/160743-new-kotor-2-scans/page__pid__2081616__mode__threaded

Well, even at that, his fate was NOT revealed. And even at that, I still remember the promise of an apperance of Revan.

That's largely because a lot of their games are tied to franchises that they don't own the rights to (Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights - Dungeons and Dragons, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - Star Wars, Sonic: Dark Brotherhood - Sonic). Dragon Age, Jade Empire, and Mass Effect are the only RPGs that they own the rights to.

Originally posted by Mandrag Ganon
Well, even at that, his fate was NOT revealed. And even at that, I still remember the promise of an apperance of Revan.

Im pretty sure "going off to the unknown regions to fight the true Sith" qualifies.

Yeah it really built up expectations that Revan would be vital in a third game.

Shattered dreams...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yeah it really built up expectations that Revan would be vital in a third game.

Shattered dreams...

I think that game was one of the biggest disapointments I have ever encountered in my many years of gaming. And the fact that Kotor 3 has yet to emerge from the ooze of rumor saddens me greatly.

Kotor could have been a great game... the seeds of greatness are there, but the 1 year timeline wouldn't allow it.