Superman vs Hercules with a twist

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golem370
Alright what if Hercules grew up with the ability to fly as fast as Superman, and was by now a normal ability would he have a better chance against Superman? Superman couldn't use his heat ray or freeze breath. The reason for this is to see if Superman ability to lift stuff has anything to with his strength and would giving Hercules a equal flying ability would close a gap between their strength.

carver9
Hercules would win because the advantage superman had over him was his flight and speed.

Herc is a better brawler by a large gap than Supes.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by carver9
Hercules would win because the advantage superman had over him was his flight and speed.

Herc is a better brawler by a large gap than Supes.
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more

Juntai
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more

Parmaniac
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more

Overall I agree but there are a two things I disagree with, at least for this very matchup. It's the term "Power" and "Versatility" please define "power" and his versatility would be gone by taken away HV and freeze breath wouldn't it? Or the rest that makes him versatile is useless against Herc for example super hearing, X-Ray Vision etc.

Bentley
This could go split, I give Herc more fighting skill under his belt but Supes has him pinned in durability, heat vision and all around versatility.

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more

confused

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Parmaniac
Overall I agree but there are a two things I disagree with, at least for this very matchup. It's the term "Power" and "Versatility" please define "power" and his versatility would be gone by taken away HV and freeze breath wouldn't it? Or the rest that makes him versatile is useless against Herc for example super hearing, X-Ray Vision etc.
No, I am not talking about this thread. I was replying to his post.

He said he gave Superman the win because Superman was only Faster and have the ability to fly. Yet, he didn't acknowledge that Superman was better in every category

carver9
Originally posted by Bentley
This could go split, I give Herc more fighting skill under his belt but Supes has him pinned in durability, heat vision and all around versatility.

Heat vision and ice breath is taken away in this battle.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, I am not talking about this thread. I was replying to his post.

He said he gave Superman the win because Superman was only Faster and have the ability to fly. Yet, he didn't acknowledge that Superman was better in every category

oh ok

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, I am not talking about this thread. I was replying to his post.

He said he gave Superman the win because Superman was only Faster and have the ability to fly. Yet, he didn't acknowledge that Superman was better in every category

Strength is VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY debatable. Piercing damage, I agree, Supes has herc beat, blunt force trama is about equal.

Newjak
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more Strength no, Techniques no.


And to be fair he was able to take down the Kyrptonian officer because he is far more experienced with his powers and how to use them.

If you need evidence Hercules held the entire planet Earth before, as his Labors have been canonized.

As for technique just because you train with people doesn't mean you are as good as them. Herc as trained with Captain America, Wolverine etc. along with some of the greatest classical fighters such as Achillies, Ajax.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by carver9
Strength is VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY debatable. Piercing damage, I agree, Supes has herc beat, blunt force trama is about equal.
No, it's not. Post scans of Herc and I will counter it


Superman made that claim about the powers like Sense, HV, CB, Flight..etc. Techniques and power has nothing to do with it, especially since Superman didn't use strength to beat the Kryptonian.

As I said, Herc is probably a better wrestler, but fighter, he has no feats and I am not assuming he is good. I have feats and statement. You only have a statement.

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, it's not. Post scans of Herc and I will counter it


Superman made that claim about the powers like Sense, HV, CB, Flight..etc. Techniques and power has nothing to do with it, especially since Superman didn't use strength to beat the Kryptonian.

As I said, Herc is probably a better wrestler, but fighter, he has no feats and I am not assuming he is good. I have feats and statement. You only have a statement.

WTF

Newjak
Originally posted by xJLxKing

Superman made that claim about the powers like Sense, HV, CB, Flight..etc. Techniques and power has nothing to do with it, especially since Superman didn't use strength to beat the Kryptonian.

As I said, Herc is probably a better wrestler, but fighter, he has no feats and I am not assuming he is good. I have feats and statement. You only have a statement. No he made that claim in general to all his abilities including his strength, speed, and overall skill with using his powers. Hence why he was showcased not using only his heatvision to destroy targets but also using his speed with it to make it an incredible feat. Also I believe Superman made direct mention that he was stronger due to having been exposed to sunlight longer.


As for technique Herc can stalemate Thor in H2H who does have impressive skill feats.

As for feats lets face it Superman is still no batman in skill no matter how much you want to push it. Not saying Herc is either but to say Superman is better is a falsity considering who Herc has fought.

xJLxKing
Well, I guess you can't prove your case.
So do you need me to ask you again.

Let's see. You claimed that reason why you give Superman the win over Herc is because of Speed and Flight

Then prove how Hercules is better in these categories
What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Newjak
No he made that claim in general to all his abilities including his strength, speed, and overall skill with using his powers. Hence why he was showcased not using only his heatvision to destroy targets but also using his speed with it to make it an incredible feat. Also I believe Superman made direct mention that he was stronger due to having been exposed to sunlight longer.


As for technique Herc can stalemate Thor in H2H who does have impressive skill feats.

As for feats lets face it Superman is still no batman in skill no matter how much you want to push it. Not saying Herc is either but to say Superman is better is a falsity considering who Herc has fought.
Superman is stronger, but he never claimed it in World Of New Krypton
Superman made the claim that they couldn't use their powers as good as him, but that DOES NOT mean anything because
1- Superman didn't use powers to beat that Officer
2- Superman only used techniques
3- The fight was not a struggle over who was stronger, but better.

Thor is not as impressive in H2H as Superman. Though, he is good. Yet, you no one feat does not mean everything. You still need more, why? Because Superman has more

bbrem123
show us then

xJLxKing
It's easier for me to counter them. Since after all, your side of the argument claimed it first

Newjak
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman is stronger, but he never claimed it in World Of New Krypton
Superman made the claim that they couldn't use their powers as good as him, but that DOES NOT mean anything because
1- Superman didn't use powers to beat that Officer
2- Superman only used techniques
3- The fight was not a struggle over who was stronger, but better.

Thor is not as impressive in H2H as Superman. Though, he is good. Yet, you no one feat does not mean everything. You still need more, why? Because Superman has more laughing

No offense but if superman is stronger which you already agree on then no matter what he will have an edge over the officer he fought which lends to him maybe not having as good skill as the officer. Not to mention we don't know just how skilled that officer is. I doubt he is on the level of a Thor or Hercules yet you will give that as a reason for superman being more skilled.

As to your idea Thor could have just as easily dispatched that Officer, Hercules as well.

Now as for Thor vs Superman H2H that is a can of worms I will not open even though I believe Thor to be superior I'll at least acknowledge a comparability there.

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman is stronger, but he never claimed it in World Of New Krypton
Superman made the claim that they couldn't use their powers as good as him, but that DOES NOT mean anything because
1- Superman didn't use powers to beat that Officer
2- Superman only used techniques
3- The fight was not a struggle over who was stronger, but better.

Thor is not as impressive in H2H as Superman. Though, he is good. Yet, you no one feat does not mean everything. You still need more, why? Because Superman has more

Show me Supes great martial arts. He is a standard, average fighter.

Supes isnt stronger than herc, every strength feat that you show case about Superman is pretty much fan fiction and people reading to far into the line. They are equals, just like Supes and Thor are pretty much equals.

carver9
Those kryptonians SUCKED anyway. They got stomped by 6 or 7 members of the jla and they had to call in more to even the odds. Hell, black lightning was taking some out, thats how terrible they were.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Newjak
laughing

No offense but if superman is stronger which you already agree on then no matter what he will have an edge over the officer he fought which lends to him maybe not having as good skill as the officer. Not to mention we don't know just how skilled that officer is. I doubt he is on the level of a Thor or Hercules yet you will give that as a reason for superman being more skilled.

As to your idea Thor could have just as easily dispatched that Officer, Hercules as well.

Now as for Thor vs Superman H2H that is a can of worms I will not open even though I believe Thor to be superior I'll at least acknowledge a comparability there.
You are misguided

The fight between Superman and the Officer showed that Superman did NOT need to rely on his Superior Strength. It proved that Superman is a better fight. He was able to take down a high ranked officer. Standard military officer know basic skills to take you down, fight, box...etc. My father was in the military. He learned how to Box, and Kick-Box there. So a HIGH ranked officer who isn't old should know it as well.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Show me Supes great martial arts. He is a standard, average fighter.

Supes isnt stronger than herc, every strength feat that you show case about Superman is pretty much fan fiction and people reading to far into the line. They are equals, just like Supes and Thor are pretty much equals.

Originally posted by carver9
Those kryptonians SUCKED anyway. They got stomped by 6 or 7 members of the jla and they had to call in more to even the odds. Hell, black lightning was taking some out, thats how terrible they were.

warned. uhuh

seriously, though. you show up in every superman thread and spout actual, literal lies about the guy that are contradicted by what's on panel.

dude, if you keep it up, you're going to end up getting banned. i'm trying to give you fair warning here.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by carver9
Those kryptonians SUCKED anyway. They got stomped by 6 or 7 members of the jla and they had to call in more to even the odds. Hell, black lightning was taking some out, thats how terrible they were.
NO, they didn't. IT was Magic used by Zantana and many other that weakened them. They aren't Superman. Not all of them are close to him. But a Officer(High ranked) should know basic knowledge on box, kick boxing..etc

xJLxKing
Originally posted by carver9
Show me Supes great martial arts. He is a standard, average fighter.

Supes isnt stronger than herc, every strength feat that you show case about Superman is pretty much fan fiction and people reading to far into the line. They are equals, just like Supes and Thor are pretty much equals.
AGAIN! PLEASE STOP CLAIMING AND POST PROOF

I HAVE ASKED YOU A DOZEN OF TIMES

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
warned. uhuh

seriously, though. you show up in every superman thread and spout actual, literal lies about the guy that are contradicted by what's on panel.

dude, if you keep it up, you're going to end up getting banned. i'm trying to give you fair warning here.

Jl started with me raoul, I said nothing to him.

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
NO, they didn't. IT was Magic used by Zantana and many other that weakened them. They aren't Superman. Not all of them are close to him. But a Officer(High ranked) should know basic knowledge on box, kick boxing..etc

I give up with you jl.

xJLxKing
Did I said anything offensive to you.
Also, I didn't report you. That would be silly. I am trying to get through to you.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Jl started with me raoul, I said nothing to him.

i'm talking about what i quoted.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm talking about what i quoted.

In another thread and if so, which one.

I have been fussing with JL in almost every thread. He attacked me when I said something about the WWH being the strongest of the hulks, etc...

He's following me and responding to my every post and I'm not going to lie, I let him get to me but I dont remember posting anything about you comments in this thread.

xJLxKing
Stop making stuff up. If you want, I'll post all the links of where I had a debate with you. You'll see why I responded to you. I responded to other as well

Juntai
Originally posted by carver9
In another thread and if so, which one.

I have been fussing with JL in almost every thread. He attacked me when I said something about the WWH being the strongest of the hulks, etc...

He's following me and responding to my every post and I'm not going to lie, I let him get to me but I dont remember posting anything about you comments in this thread. He's talking about you outright lying and lowballing characters wherever you go.

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Stop making stuff up. If you want, I'll post all the links of where I had a debate with you. You'll see why I responded to you. I responded to other as well

I know you responded to others and they are fussing with you about the same thing that I'm fussing about and you still just dont get it.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
In another thread and if so, which one.

I have been fussing with JL in almost every thread. He attacked me when I said something about the WWH being the strongest of the hulks, etc...

He's following me and responding to my every post and I'm not going to lie, I let him get to me but I dont remember posting anything about you comments in this thread.

Originally posted by Juntai
He's talking about you outright lying and lowballing characters wherever you go.

thanks juntai.

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
thanks juntai.


So I lowball every character?

xJLxKing
That you are against

Parmaniac
Originally posted by carver9
So I lowball every character?

Except your favorites wink

but something in your defense you never insult people or something atleast I've never seen that

carver9
Originally posted by xJLxKing
That you are against

Well I disagree with that.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
So I lowball every character?

the ones you don't seem to like, yes.

khazra
Hercules has a solid chance here though not necessarily a winning one. Itsa really long fight eitherway.

thanos-prime
Herc slight majority

r0nm0n88
superman wins. better reflexs

golem370
How much of Superman's strength is realted to his flying and how much is pure superhuman strength. Hercules is a great fight in his own style.

-Pr-
Originally posted by golem370
How much of Superman's strength is realted to his flying and how much is pure superhuman strength. Hercules is a great fight in his own style.

there's no actual proof that he relies on his flying to boost his strength bar one ambiguous scan from the 80s.

golem370
If Batman had Superman's strength and had fought DOS Doomsday would he have died or would he have been able to use his skill with Superman powers to win. I just wonder that if he didn't fly could he physically lift say a chunk of rock that weight 900,000,000 tons?

JakeTheBank
I think it's safe to assume his strength is already incredibly high without factoring things in such as speed and momentum.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by golem370
If Batman had Superman's strength and had fought DOS Doomsday would he have died or would he have been able to use his skill with Superman powers to win.

Uh, he would have died.

golem370
Really let me say all of Superman powers

-Pr-
Originally posted by golem370
If Batman had Superman's strength and had fought DOS Doomsday would he have died or would he have been able to use his skill with Superman powers to win. I just wonder that if he didn't fly could he physically lift say a chunk of rock that weight 900,000,000 tons?

most likely, yes.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by golem370
Really let me say all of Superman powers

What skill? Do you mean if Batman would have spent a lifetime learning how to use his powers like Clark did? He still would have lost, IMO.

golem370
I still think he could move/lift more because of his flying ability

-Pr-
Batman would have lost because he's strictly not willing to kill. You push Superman far enough and he'll kill if he has to.

golem370
Well Superman was probably not looking to kill Doomsday he was just fighting until the last punch. Maybe Batman could have used pressure points to knock him out or bfr

-Pr-
Originally posted by golem370
Well Superman was probably not looking to kill Doomsday he was just fighting until the last punch. Maybe Batman could have used pressure points to knock him out or bfr

it wouldn't be the first time superman has killed when forced to...

darthgoober
Originally posted by xJLxKing
It's easier for me to counter them. Since after all, your side of the argument claimed it first
Actually the onus to post proof is on you in this particular instance. See Carver said that Supes's advantages were flight and speed which is obviously true and no one questions that point, you're the one who said that Supes was also stronger and more durable and that's the point that's being argued. You're asking for proof of a negative because you're wanting others to prove your claim(that Supes is stronger and more durable) wrong.

golem370
Yeah but Superman more then likely think that last punch was the last punch

-Pr-
Originally posted by golem370
Yeah but Superman more then likely think that last punch was the last punch

he did. that's why he stopped holding back and put doomsday down.



as far as strength and durability go, yes, i think superman is stronger/more durable than hercules.

golem370
Even if he is its shouldn't be by much

-Pr-
Originally posted by golem370
Even if he is its shouldn't be by much

at base/normal levels? no, not by much, imo.

namorsubby
Originally posted by carver9
Hercules would win because the advantage superman had over him was his flight and speed.

Herc is a better brawler by a large gap than Supes. and strength and durability

xJLxKing
Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually the onus to post proof is on you in this particular instance. See Carver said that Supes's advantages were flight and speed which is obviously true and no one questions that point, you're the one who said that Supes was also stronger and more durable and that's the point that's being argued. You're asking for proof of a negative because you're wanting others to prove your claim(that Supes is stronger and more durable) wrong.
No.
To have an advantage, you'd have to be stronger then somebody in a particular category like flight, speed..etc
When he claimed Superman was Faster, he also implied that Herc was just as strong, durable, versatile..etc

darthgoober
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No.
To have an advantage, you'd have to be stronger then somebody in a particular category like flight, speed..etc
When he claimed Superman was Faster, he also implied that Herc was just as strong, durable, versatile..etc
They're both recognized as top tier's in strength, them being approximately equal in strength is reasonable and too subjective to actually prove. On the other hand, Saying that one of them is definitely above the other is the kind of thing that needs definitive proof. Supes isn't automatically stronger than anyone he faces until proved otherwise...

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by darthgoober
Supes isn't automatically stronger than anyone he faces until proved otherwise...

But....his SUPERMAN!

Juntai
Originally posted by darthgoober
They're both recognized as top tier's in strength, them being approximately equal in strength is reasonable and too subjective to actually prove. On the other hand, Saying that one of them is definitely above the other is the kind of thing that needs definitive proof. Supes isn't automatically stronger than anyone he faces until proved otherwise... Superman can slam his hand in the watchtower and knock the moon out of orbit accidentally.

Got any comparable feats for Herc not from the 60s and 70s as those showings are in no way indicitive of current portrayals of the characters?

xJLxKing
Originally posted by darthgoober
They're both recognized as top tier's in strength, them being approximately equal in strength is reasonable and too subjective to actually prove. On the other hand, Saying that one of them is definitely above the other is the kind of thing that needs definitive proof. Supes isn't automatically stronger than anyone he faces until proved otherwise...
I never said definitely. All I said is, Superman is stronger. I would counter his claim had he post some sort of proof. He didn't

Yes, they are top tier, but Superman(obviously) has more feats on his shoulder which are more superior, why shouldn't I believe Superman wins this

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Juntai
Superman can slam his hand in the watchtower and knock the moon out of orbit accidentally.

Got any comparable feats for Herc not from the 60s and 70s as those showings are in no way indicitive of current portrayals of the characters?

Scans? I recall reading this, but seeing it again should help put it in perspective.

Oh and Thor/Hercules arm wrestling apparently produce enough force to knock the planet out of orbit. They aren't even touching the planet physically. Taking into account how much bigger the Earth is than the moon, and the fact that Hercules was producing about half of that force, makes it a deal more impressive to me.

Why are feats from the 60's and 70's not valid again? Unless a character is significantly weakened like say Odin, then they are pretty damn valid. Especially for someone like Hercules, who hasn't had his own series until recently, and his earlier carrier consisted of guest appearances mostly in Thor.

Mshinu
Herc beats up Supes here then pays his dental bill cuz he is such a great guy

darthgoober
Originally posted by Juntai
Superman can slam his hand in the watchtower and knock the moon out of orbit accidentally.

Got any comparable feats for Herc not from the 60s and 70s as those showings are in no way indicitive of current portrayals of the characters?
His supporting the burden of Atlas was depicted again fairly recently I believe.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I never said definitely. All I said is, Superman is stronger. I would counter his claim had he post some sort of proof. He didn't

Yes, they are top tier, but Superman(obviously) has more feats on his shoulder which are more superior, why shouldn't I believe Superman wins this
You're welcome to believe that Supes is stronger and more durable than Herc. I wasn't faulting your opinion, I was just pointing out that you were the one making a claim that needed to be supported. You basically used the logic that since Carver believed Herc to be Supes's equal but didn't post proof it automatically meant that Supes was stronger.

Spire
Originally posted by golem370
The reason for this is to see if Superman ability to lift stuff has anything to with his strength and would giving Hercules a equal flying ability would close a gap between their strength.

laughing out loud

rotiart
While I don't think that Hercules wins... I do believe the match would be fairly close.. Hercules relies on wrestling techniques which I don see being too helpful in the air

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Scans? I recall reading this, but seeing it again should help put it in perspective.

Oh and Thor/Hercules arm wrestling apparently produce enough force to knock the planet out of orbit. They aren't even touching the planet physically. Taking into account how much bigger the Earth is than the moon, and the fact that Hercules was producing about half of that force, makes it a deal more impressive to me.

Why are feats from the 60's and 70's not valid again? Unless a character is significantly weakened like say Odin, then they are pretty damn valid. Especially for someone like Hercules, who hasn't had his own series until recently, and his earlier carrier consisted of guest appearances mostly in Thor.
The reason he said 60's and 70's feats are not valid in this particular match up is because Hercules isn't as strong as he used to.


What? No!
Listen, when someone claims that the only reason why Superman wins is because of Flight and Speed, then they are pretty much saying that either
1- The other powers are all equal EXCEPT flight and speedOR
2- Powers like strength, durability..etc will not play a role in the fight

Otherwise he should have said, Superman wins because of his flight despite the fact that he is stronger, more durable..etc, or something like that.

Because he didn't post anything near that, I took it as him trying to claim that Herc is just as strong as Superman, just as durable..etc. This is why I asked for proof

Juntai
Originally posted by darthgoober
His supporting the burden of Atlas was depicted again fairly recently I believe. You mean putting his hands into the sky and standing there?
I need something a little more physical mass to it.

Juntai
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Scans? I recall reading this, but seeing it again should help put it in perspective.

Oh and Thor/Hercules arm wrestling apparently produce enough force to knock the planet out of orbit. They aren't even touching the planet physically. Taking into account how much bigger the Earth is than the moon, and the fact that Hercules was producing about half of that force, makes it a deal more impressive to me.

Why are feats from the 60's and 70's not valid again? Unless a character is significantly weakened like say Odin, then they are pretty damn valid. Especially for someone like Hercules, who hasn't had his own series until recently, and his earlier carrier consisted of guest appearances mostly in Thor. 60's and 70's feats aren't valid because they simply aren't current and accurate depictions of the characters, which is what the rules suggest we use in threads.

namorsubby
supes outclasses herc in everything, except maybe h2h.........herc has more experience though

Mindset
Originally posted by xJLxKing
The reason he said 60's and 70's feats are not valid in this particular match up is because Hercules isn't as strong as he used to.

Based on what?

darthgoober
Originally posted by xJLxKing
What? No!
Listen, when someone claims that the only reason why Superman wins is because of Flight and Speed, then they are pretty much saying that either
1- The other powers are all equal EXCEPT flight and speedOR
2- Powers like strength, durability..etc will not play a role in the fight

Otherwise he should have said, Superman wins because of his flight despite the fact that he is stronger, more durable..etc, or something like that.

Because he didn't post anything near that, I took it as him trying to claim that Herc is just as strong as Superman, just as durable..etc. This is why I asked for proof

Dude do you remember your first post on the topic...
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more

Again, it's reasonable to assume that two top tiers like Supes and Herc are on par with each other strength wise, but to actually claim that one is stronger is the kind of thing that requires proof. That's why I said that the onus is on you to prove that Supes is stronger rather than it being on Carver to prove that Herc's as strong. After all Carver can't prove that Herc's as strong unless there's something from Supes on the table to compare it to. Now if you had posted a feat of Supes's to establish why you think Supes's strength is superior then it would be on Carver to post one from Herc to match it.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Juntai
You mean putting his hands into the sky and standing there?
I need something a little more physical mass to it.
He wasn't just holding up the air, he was holding up the "Heavens". It's definitely unquantifiable, but it's still pretty freakin impressive. From what I understand(I haven't verified this personally though), they're currently revealing Atlas's weight as the Cosmic Axis or something like that, so hopefully we'll get some more info on just how impressive Herc's feat was.

rotiart
Originally posted by darthgoober
Dude do you remember your first post on the topic...


Again, it's reasonable to assume that two top tiers like Supes and Herc are on par with each other strength wise, but to actually claim that one is stronger is the kind of thing that requires proof. That's why I said that the onus is on you to prove that Supes is stronger rather than it being on Carver to prove that Herc's as strong. After all Carver can't prove that Herc's as strong unless there's something from Supes on the table to compare it to. Now if you had posted a feat of Supes's to establish why you think Supes's strength is superior then it would be on Carver to post one from Herc to match it. thumb up

Juntai
Originally posted by darthgoober
It's definitely unquantifiable Which is why I asked if you had something with more physical mass to it.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by darthgoober
Dude do you remember your first post on the topic...


Again, it's reasonable to assume that two top tiers like Supes and Herc are on par with each other strength wise, but to actually claim that one is stronger is the kind of thing that requires proof. That's why I said that the onus is on you to prove that Supes is stronger rather than it being on Carver to prove that Herc's as strong. After all Carver can't prove that Herc's as strong unless there's something from Supes on the table to compare it to. Now if you had posted a feat of Supes's to establish why you think Supes's strength is superior then it would be on Carver to post one from Herc to match it.
To claim that Hercules is as strong as Superman, you'd still need to post proof even if they are top tier

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
The reason he said 60's and 70's feats are not valid in this particular match up is because Hercules isn't as strong as he used to.

eer

What are you basing this on besides you're own opinion? How is Hercules in anyway inferior currently then at his older levels?

Since when are feats not valid, because they happened in the 60's or 70's?

So according to your warped logic I can't use Thor feats from the 60's? Lulz.

Marvel doesn't have a continuity which is as ****ed up as DC's if you can even call that continuity. The only way that this argument even applies is if characters are noticeably weaker such as Odin or Green Lanterns.

If that isn't the case then anything goes unless it's been retconned etc.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Juntai
60's and 70's feats aren't valid because they simply aren't current and accurate depictions of the characters, which is what the rules suggest we use in threads.

Why on Earth would they not be valid unless a character has noticeably gotten weaker which Hercules hasn't gotten?

His greatest lifting feat was retold recently.

darthgoober
Originally posted by xJLxKing
To claim that Hercules is as strong as Superman, you'd still need to post proof even if they are top tier
He's stalemated Thor in strength, and Thor's top tier in strength. He also supported the burden of Atlas. And again, Supes doesn't get a walk in the strength department. If you're claiming that Supes is stronger then it's your job to prove it, it's not the job of others to prove you wrong.

Spire
The rock Herc and Atlas were standing on might be as strong as Supes.

big grin

xJLxKing
Originally posted by darthgoober
He's stalemated Thor in strength, and Thor's top tier in strength. He also supported the burden of Atlas. And again, Supes doesn't get a walk in the strength department. If you're claiming that Supes is stronger then it's your job to prove it, it's not the job of others to prove you wrong.
It's your job to prove he is just as strong since someone had to claim they are equal

darthgoober
Originally posted by xJLxKing
It's your job to prove he is just as strong since someone had to claim they are equal
I gave feats, him supporting the burden of Atas and stalemating Thor. Now prove Supes is stronger.

bbrem123
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/jjschm20/Hercules/Thorvs.jpg

xJLxKing
Originally posted by darthgoober
I gave feats, him supporting the burden of Atas and stalemating Thor. Now prove Supes is stronger.
I know, I just wanted to get through to you

http://img525.imageshack.us/i/megadon1en9.jpg/
http://img442.imageshack.us/i/megadon2zv0.jpg/

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I know, I just wanted to get through to you

http://img525.imageshack.us/i/megadon1en9.jpg/
http://img442.imageshack.us/i/megadon2zv0.jpg/

Doesn't really prove that Hercules is weaker. Especially if you consider Hercules an equal of Thor and what Thor has done. And what Thor has done tops that. World Engine comes to mind. But that's A, B, C logic so yea...

Personally I think that Thor always seem to be able to kick up a notch when the situation needs it.

bbrem123
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8149/mtuv1028p18194rn.jpg

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Doesn't really prove that Hercules is weaker. Especially if you consider Hercules an equal of Thor and what Thor has done. And what Thor has done tops that. World Engine comes to mind. But that's A, B, C logic so yea...

Personally I think that Thor always seem to be able to kick up a notch when the situation needs it.
Personally, I dismiss anyone who goes for the a>b>C logic. DO you know what?
Here it comes
Superman>Ultraman
Ultraman picked up the infinite book
So Superman can do it

Superman has beaten so many characters and if you use the a>b>C logic to gain feats, it becomes stupid.

As for the Thor vs Hercules Feats. I never did view them as Equal. I feel as if Thor can be stronger

Spire
*waits for someone to post Superman stalemating Captain Marvel who was stacking Hercules and Atlas.*

xJLxKing
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/SupermanandCMarmwrestling.jpg

Rage.Of.Olympus
DC Hercules =/= Marvel Hercules

I really don't see how that proves anything. Especially since the revelation in Trials of Shazam, stating that there are multiple gods named Zeus and Hercules, with each having different occupations.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Personally, I dismiss anyone who goes for the a>b>C logic. DO you know what?
Here it comes
Superman>Ultraman
Ultraman picked up the infinite book
So Superman can do it

Superman has beaten so many characters and if you use the a>b>C logic to gain feats, it becomes stupid.

As for the Thor vs Hercules Feats. I never did view them as Equal. I feel as if Thor can be stronger

Cool.

I thought Superman = Ultraman. They always seemed that way except for Superman being more effective and skilled.

I thought that feat was more than just physical.

Just saying. One of Hercules' biggest claims to fame is the fact that he has stalemated Thor.

Thor has been portrayed as stronger a lot outside of their fights. Even back in the earlier days, I believe Thor #231, Thor goes toe to toe with Armak, a being who shrugged of a punch to the face from Hercules and one shotted him (Hercules was down for like 3 entire pages. He was still down even when Thor flew to fight Armak after convincing.).

darthgoober
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I know, I just wanted to get through to you

http://img525.imageshack.us/i/megadon1en9.jpg/
http://img442.imageshack.us/i/megadon2zv0.jpg/
I don't get it, how does that prove that Supes is stronger? Where in the story was it established how much weight was Supes dealing with there and how do you know it was more than the burden of Atlas?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Spire
*waits for someone to post Superman stalemating Captain Marvel who was stacking Hercules and Atlas.*
So to you the gods of both worlds that share a name are equal?

Spire
Originally posted by darthgoober
So to you the gods of both worlds that share a name are equal?

Yes, at the very least.

-Pr-
i've always believed that in terms of pure strength, Superman > Thor > Herc. By a huge amount? No, but a definitive one. Maybe its just me.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Spire
Yes, at the very least.
So Ares(Marvel)=Ares(DC)?

Spire
I think DC treats Greeks better.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Wow....

Originally posted by -Pr-
i've always believed that in terms of pure strength, Superman > Thor. By a huge amount? No, but a definitive one. Maybe its just me.

And I can never understand why some people come to this conclusion? It just seems baseless.

Thor has the feats to match all of Superman's high end feats and just like Superman he has shown when needed he can take things up a notch. Heck, even if you bring up the ridiculous notion that Superman's strength is depended on his will, I can easily make such an argument as well as Thor. Especially based on shit like the Crusader, and Scarlet Scarab fight.

I just cannot see how anyone can come to the conclusion that either is in someway superior to the other in any definitive way.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Spire
I think DC treats Greeks better.
I thought the Gods were equal though?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Wow....



And I can never understand why some people come to this conclusion? It just seems baseless.

Thor has the feats to match all of Superman's high end feats and just like Superman he has shown when needed he can take things up a notch. Heck, even if you bring up the ridiculous notion that Superman's strength is depended on his will, I can easily make such an argument as well as Thor. Especially based on shit like the Crusader, and Scarlet Scarab fight.

I just cannot see how anyone can come to the conclusion that either is in someway superior to the other in any definitive way.

why is it baseless?

i'm talking about normal thor sans mjolnir, btw.

you think i just picked the opinion out of thin air?

Spire
Originally posted by darthgoober
I thought the Gods were equal though?

That's cool.

D-Block
Originally posted by xJLxKing


As for the Thor vs Hercules Feats. I never did view them as Equal. I feel as if Thor can be stronger

I agree with This.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Spire
That's cool.
Huh?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by -Pr-
why is it baseless?

i'm talking about normal thor sans mjolnir, btw.

you think i just picked the opinion out of thin air?

Because Thor has feats to match every single one of Superman's. It is rather baseless to come to the conclusion that Superman is any way definitively stronger than Thor. Both have low showings. Both have high unquantifiable showings. Both are considering the cream of the crop physically in respective Universes.

Classic Thor's greatest feats are without Mjolnir. Even with Mjolnir he hits practically as hard as he does without.

Might as well.

D-Block
Originally posted by -Pr-
why is it baseless?

i'm talking about normal thor sans mjolnir, btw.

you think i just picked the opinion out of thin air?

Mjolnir does not give Thor any Strength though.

Spire
Originally posted by darthgoober
Huh?

?

xJLxKing
Power, and striking power, yes!

darthgoober
Originally posted by Spire
?
What did your post mean? I was asking a question because you said you thought that Gods that share names are equal.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Because Thor has feats to match every single one of Superman's. It is rather baseless to come to the conclusion that Superman is any way definitively stronger than Thor. Both have low showings. Both have high unquantifiable showings. Both are considering the cream of the crop physically in respective Universes.

Classic Thor's greatest feats are without Mjolnir. Even with Mjolnir he hits practically as hard as he does without.

Might as well.

ok, we disagree hugely, then.

also, thor is the cream of the crop physically in marvel? and not that big green guy who smashes shit?

Originally posted by D-Block
Mjolnir does not give Thor any Strength though.

it's a magic hammer. regardless of how strong thor is, hitting someone with a weapon is always going to be a harder hit than hitting somene without it.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Power, and striking power, yes!

It's versatility more than power that it adds. Heck his strongest attack comes from his own internal energies. Like Thor said, Mjolnir is powerful but at the end of the day it's a tool.

Without it, he can still fly, generate and manipulate energy, manipulate matter, heal people, create force fields, control the weather etc.

Not if his using it as a blunt force object it doesn't.

D-Block
Originally posted by -Pr-
ok, we disagree hugely, then.

also, thor is the cream of the crop physically in marvel? and not that big green guy who smashes shit?



it's a magic hammer. regardless of how strong thor is, hitting someone with a weapon is always going to be a harder hit than hitting somene without it.

Oh ok I thought you ment in terms of lifting.

-Pr-
Originally posted by D-Block
Oh ok I thought you ment in terms of lifting.

oh, ok. no. sorry i wasnt clearer.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's versatility more than power that it adds. Heck his strongest attack comes from his own internal energies. Like Thor said, Mjolnir is powerful but at the end of the day it's a tool.

Without it, he can still fly, generate and manipulate energy, manipulate matter, heal people, create force fields, control the weather etc.

Not if his using it as a blunt force object it doesn't.
Mostly right, but Thor cannot fly without it

The most recent issue shows it. This is what I am going with. If you want to dismiss it because you like the feat he did while fighting Storm, or some other feat he did 20 years ago, then fine, but you only prove my case

Spire
Originally posted by darthgoober
What did your post mean? I was asking a question because you said you thought that Gods that share names are equal.

Oh, that.

Yeah, at the very least.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by -Pr-
ok, we disagree hugely, then.

also, thor is the cream of the crop physically in marvel? and not that big green guy who smashes shit?

I really don't see why as both have feats to match. I might as well take the stance that Thor is stronger if we're gonna ignore this stuff.

Well, besides the Hulk. Thor is right up there with him. Hence why they always stalemate and Thor can go toe to toe with him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it's a magic hammer. regardless of how strong thor is, hitting someone with a weapon is always going to be a harder hit than hitting somene without it.

Thor's been shown that even without it, his just as formidable. I really don't understand why some people (Not you.) assume Thor isn't as formidable or is somehow weak without Mjolnir. I mean Thor has literally encountered beings in comics that have the exact notion and believe without his hammer Thor is weak. Thor drops his hammer and shows these beings that this is not the case. Thor hitting harder with Mjolnir is probably more of an exception than anything rather than the rule.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Mostly right, but Thor cannot fly without it

The most recent issue shows it. This is what I am going with. If you want to dismiss it because you like the feat he did while fighting Storm, or some other feat he did 20 years ago, then fine, but you only prove my case

What? Where does it say that Thor cannot fly without Mjolnir?

Are you still stuck on that phrase stated in Thor #601? All he said was that he prays Mjolnir has it in her to fly one more time. How you come to the conclusion that he cannot fly without it according to that statement is mind boggling.

Especially since in preview of the Thor issue coming out this Wednesday, he is shown to fly with Mjolnir held at his side.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I really don't see why as both have feats to match. I might as well take the stance that Thor is stronger if we're gonna ignore this stuff.

i'm not ignoring anything. from what i've seen, i just think Superman is stronger.



but we both agree that he can hit harder with it than without, right?

Spire
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor's been shown that even without it, his just as formidable. I really don't understand why some people (Not you.) assume Thor isn't as formidable or is somehow weak without Mjolnir.

laughing

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What? Where does it say that Thor cannot fly without Mjolnir?

Are you still stuck on that phrase stated in Thor #601? All he said was that he prays Mjolnir has it in her to fly one more time. How you come to the conclusion that he cannot fly without it according to that statement is mind boggling.

Especially since in the next issue of Thor, his shown to fly with Mjolnir held at his side.
I don't have those issues any more

As for 601, it pretty much proved it.

He relied on Mjolnir when dead was at his door step. Where every second count and could have brought him misery for the rest of his life. And you tell me he just wanted to use Mjonlir to try and fly he he could have flown then without it?

JakeTheBank
Mjolnir makes things easier/more reliable for Thor. Doesn't mean that w/o he can't replicate the same feats.

Spire
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I don't have those issues any more

As for 601, it pretty much proved it.

He relied on Mjolnir when dead was at his door step. Where every second count and could have brought him misery for the rest of his life. And you tell me he just wanted to use Mjonlir to try and fly he he could have flown then without it?

I'm not sure if you have caught on yet, but Rage basically is trying to turn Thor into... get this... Superman.

To him Thor can fly super fast without Mjolnir, can speed blitz at FTInstant Light speed, doesn't have a history of 'deus ex machina' with Mjolnir and uses pure strength for the win, and finally Mjolnir isn't an enchanted hammer and has no effect of his blows.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Let's ignore the fact that Thor has been shown to fly super fast without Mjolnir (Depending on the writer though, he has been shown to be unable to fly without it here and there. Like during Simson's run and the Hela fight for example.).

Mjolnir is an incredibly versatile object. Like I said, it adds versatility to Thor. A lot of versatility. But even without it, his incredibly effective.

Of course it's an enchanted hammer. Don't put words in my mouth.

Why on Earth would I want to turn a character like Thor into Superman? Superman never interested me, and always seemed boring.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I don't have those issues any more

As for 601, it pretty much proved it.

He relied on Mjolnir when dead was at his door step. Where every second count and could have brought him misery for the rest of his life. And you tell me he just wanted to use Mjonlir to try and fly he he could have flown then without it?

No it really didn't.

Are you really this desperate?

He always relies on Mjolnir to fly. But when he has to or his hands are full, he has shown that he can fly without it.

By that logic then you must believe that Thor can't teleport either correct? I mean instant teleportation would have been much more effective than flight whether through Mjolnir or not, but he didn't use it. So clearly Thor can't teleport anymore either amirite?

Christ.....

You're argument falls apart even further based on the fact that in the next issue of Thor he'll be flying with Mjolnir at his side.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm not ignoring anything. from what i've seen, i just think Superman is stronger.

Well, I think Thor is stronger then.

Originally posted by -Pr-
but we both agree that he can hit harder with it than without, right?

Depends on the writer. It has been shown that he can hit just as hard, or is as effective in combat without it as he is with it. On other occasions though, although not stated it's shown that he hits harder with it.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, I think Thor is stronger then.



Depends on the writer. It has been shown that he can hit just as hard, or is as effective in combat without it as he is with it. On other occasions though, although not stated it's shown that he hits harder with it.

laughing out loud

it's a hammer, though. i mean, no matter how strong i am or how strong you are, give us a sledgehammer and we become much more capable of wrecking shit with brute force. why wouldn't the same apply to thor?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by -Pr-
laughing out loud

it's a hammer, though. i mean, no matter how strong i am or how strong you are, give us a sledgehammer and we become much more capable of wrecking shit with brute force. why wouldn't the same apply to thor?

It should be the case in real life logic, but it has been shown like I said, that his just as effective and can hit as hard without his hammer as he can with it in the past.

The difference between Thor with Mjolnir and Thor without it, has never been anywhere as large as it would be for me/you with a sledge hammer and me/you without a sledge hammer.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It should be the case in real life logic, but it has been shown like I said, that his just as effective and can hit as hard without his hammer as he can with it in the past.

The difference between Thor with Mjolnir and Thor without it, has never been anywhere as large as it would be for me/you with a sledge hammer and me/you without a sledge hammer.

all right, i guess...

Juntai
Originally posted by -Pr-
laughing out loud

it's a hammer, though. i mean, no matter how strong i am or how strong you are, give us a sledgehammer and we become much more capable of wrecking shit with brute force. why wouldn't the same apply to thor? and then imbue it with, you know, magic.

supremthor
this would be a closer fight if herc is givien flight, but at the end superman still wins due to his greater strength and durability.

Bentley
Honestly, Thor has never been shown as being "weaker" than Hulk, they seem on pair with the other despite the fact that being strong is pretty much Hulk's whole powerset.

BattleMage
Originally posted by xJLxKing
Brawler as in wrestler, yes. Fight, NO! Superman has years of training under Batman, WW, and many others. The fact that he was able to beat another Military and high ranked Kryptonian Officer in a few hits shows that.

Don't forget that Superman is still stronger, and more durable. Unless of course you got evidence to prove your claim.

What gave Superman the advantage is
Speed
Strength
Power
Versatility
Intelligence
Durability
Techiniques
and soo much more laughing out loud

TheBadguy
The more Thor discussion gets dragged into this the further away we are going to get from agreeing on who wins Herc vs Supes.

h1a8
Originally posted by Newjak
Strength no, Techniques no.


And to be fair he was able to take down the Kyrptonian officer because he is far more experienced with his powers and how to use them.

If you need evidence Hercules held the entire planet Earth before, as his Labors have been canonized.

As for technique just because you train with people doesn't mean you are as good as them. Herc as trained with Captain America, Wolverine etc. along with some of the greatest classical fighters such as Achillies, Ajax.

Herc didn't hold up the Earth. He just stood under it and posed.
Seriously, if he wasn't there what would the Earth had done, fall? I think not.

Superman has done feats that calculate beyond 50 Earth. weights of force.

The only think Hercules is better at is wrestling. Superman trumps him in everything else.

Bentley
Originally posted by h1a8
Herc didn't hold up the Earth. He just stood under it and posed.

And there it goes your credibility in this debate confused

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by h1a8
Herc didn't hold up the Earth. He just stood under it and posed.
Seriously, if he wasn't there what would the Earth had done, fall? I think not.

Superman has done feats that calculate beyond 50 Earth. weights of force.

The only think Hercules is better at is wrestling. Superman trumps him in everything else.

Bull. He held up Atlas' weight which is the Olympian version of the Cosmic Axis. If that's the case that's more impressive than holding up the worlds weight. Thor alone, has shrugged off the weight of half the planet on top of him.

When was this?

Hercules is also a better and interesting character.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hercules is also a better and interesting character.

that's entirely subjective.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by -Pr-
that's entirely subjective.

Well that's pretty damn obvious. It's like saying, Blue is a much better color then red, or Midnight Summers Dream is a much better book than Romeo and Juliet. It's just that, it's, well, h1, so I'm trying a new approach. The dur logic.

Mindset
Originally posted by Bentley
And there it goes your credibility in this debate confused What credibility?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well that's pretty damn obvious. It's like saying, Blue is a much better color then red, or Midnight Summers Dream is a much better book than Romeo and Juliet. It's just that, it's, well, h1, so I'm trying a new approach. The dur logic.

you've a long way to go before you're capable of using the dur.

uhuh

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by -Pr-
you've a long way to go before you're capable of using the dur.

uhuh

I've trained long and hard, and have mastered the ways of the dur from the one and only durhulk or otherwise known as badabing

I am ready. durbeware

-Pr-
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I've trained long and hard, and have mastered the ways of the dur from the one and only durhulk or otherwise known as badabing

I am ready. durbeware

mmm

Badabing
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I've trained long and hard, and have mastered the ways of the dur from the one and only durhulk or otherwise known as badabing

I am ready. durbeware The Dur is strong with you. duryes

I have but one lesson left to learn, the Dur Chi! ohno

Philosophía
Originally posted by Juntai
You mean putting his hands into the sky and standing there?
I need something a little more physical mass to it.

laughing out loudthumb up

Juntai
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
It's like saying, Blue is a much better color then red, or Midnight Summers Dream is a much better book than Romeo and Juliet. Both of those are true though, and the Herc one is completely false. smile
Though I believe you mean a midsummer night's dream.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Badabing
The Dur is strong with you. duryes

I have but one lesson left to learn, the Dur Chi! ohno lol

Nihilist
Didnt Hercules hold New York together during WW Hulk.

Juntai
Originally posted by Nihilist
Didnt Hercules hold New York together during WW Hulk. Whatever, Jay Z been holding NY down for the last 12 summers. Herc's feat has nothing on that.

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