Star Trek to drop socialism

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Shey Tapani
What do you guys think.

Badabing
Agreed.

roughrider
What does that mean?
The future where money doesn't exist anymore and everyone works for the betterment of the world & the federation - that's no more?

Shey Tapani
roughrider posted:

" The future where money doesn't exist anymore and everyone works for the betterment of the world & the federation - that's no more?"

Indeed, the state should not run everything.

The Starfleet stories make Trek Trek anyway.

roughrider
Well, up here in Canada we have strands of socialism in our policies. We appreciate it and don't look at it as a bugaboo.

Shey Tapani
Yes but you dont have such an ubermistified government like one in Trek.


They have a borderline religious belief in their own government.

They dont just have social policies, i never heard about anyone inside the Federation not working for the government.

I think thats unhealthy.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Yes but you dont have such an ubermistified government like one in Trek.


They have a borderline religious belief in their own government.

They dont just have social policies, i never heard about anyone inside the Federation not working for the government.

I think thats unhealthy.

the federation citizens?

Shey Tapani
Yes.

Is any of them not working for the government?

Red Nemesis
Why would that not be healthy?

-Pr-
bit late, but:

Originally posted by Shey Tapani
Yes.

Is any of them not working for the government?

tons.

Doctor-Alvis
I never even thought of it as a government. They always just seemed like one big nondescript group.

Shey Tapani
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Why would that not be healthy?


Too much power in to few hands.

Sadako of Girth
The socialism was a progression of future earth's history though didn't it? .... a swing that occurred after the factionism/infighting/chucking nukes about...?

Shey Tapani
I am not that familiar with trek canon.

-Pr-
The Federation is run by a centralised Federation Council, with representatives from all the major members, and a democratically elected president (iirc).

The Federation itself is more of a united nations of sorts. Starfleet is the military/exploration arm of the Federation.

The belief in the Federation being some sort of religious entity is a minority view. To most people, it's just a group of planets helping each other out.

the ninjak
Money didn't exist in this reality!

How can money or a Stock Market exist when you can make anything you want! Gold, Art, MONEY!!!!!!!!

People earned respect in their feats and sacrifices. Bums got fed and lived their lives....sounds perfect.

-Pr-
Originally posted by the ninjak
Money didn't exist in this reality!

How can money or a Stock Market exist when you can make anything you want! Gold, Art, MONEY!!!!!!!!

People earned respect in their feats and sacrifices. Bums got fed and lived their lives....sounds perfect.

Money does exist in Star Trek, and certain forms of currency can't actually be replicated.

The Federation does have a monetary unit, but it's not used by citizens that much if at all.

Kinneary
Originally posted by -Pr-
The Federation is run by a centralised Federation Council, with representatives from all the major members, and a democratically elected president (iirc).

The Federation itself is more of a united nations of sorts. Starfleet is the military/exploration arm of the Federation.

The belief in the Federation being some sort of religious entity is a minority view. To most people, it's just a group of planets helping each other out.
I always saw the Federation as more of the USA, where each world becomes a 'state.' For example, when the USA went to war with Iraq all of the UN wasn't sucked in. But in the Federation, if they declare war, all planets are immediately at war. It's the same reason that Bajor couldn't become a member of the UFP - they would have immediately been at war with the Dominion.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Kinneary
I always saw the Federation as more of the USA, where each world becomes a 'state.' For example, when the USA went to war with Iraq all of the UN wasn't sucked in. But in the Federation, if they declare war, all planets are immediately at war. It's the same reason that Bajor couldn't become a member of the UFP - they would have immediately been at war with the Dominion.

You could look at it that way, sure.

The reason I brought up the UN parallels is because you have very different worlds, ideologies and cultures coming together under the banner of peace and cooperation.

jaden101
http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/eyebrowsp1.gif

Kinneary
Originally posted by -Pr-
You could look at it that way, sure.

The reason I brought up the UN parallels is because you have very different worlds, ideologies and cultures coming together under the banner of peace and cooperation.
Well, that's pretty much the same as the states. Granted in the states we haven't reached the level of tolerance that is shown in the UFP, it seems pretty obvious (at least to me) that the UFP was originally created as a parallel to the US. Different cultures coming together to act as one. The UN seems, to me, a pretty bad correlation for the UFP. The UN really isn't treated seriously even by member nations, and each nation operating under it is very, very independent.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Kinneary
Well, that's pretty much the same as the states. Granted in the states we haven't reached the level of tolerance that is shown in the UFP, it seems pretty obvious (at least to me) that the UFP was originally created as a parallel to the US. Different cultures coming together to act as one. The UN seems, to me, a pretty bad correlation for the UFP. The UN really isn't treated seriously even by member nations, and each nation operating under it is very, very independent.

You could say the same about America, though. stick out tongue

Omega Vision
Originally posted by -Pr-
You could look at it that way, sure.

The reason I brought up the UN parallels is because you have very different worlds, ideologies and cultures coming together under the banner of peace and cooperation.
But the UFP is actually capable of being decisive sometimes. If the UFP were actually like the UN then the Borg would have assimilated Earth while the Federation Council discussed whether there was precedent for levying sanctions on a Hive Mind Society.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Omega Vision
But the UFP is actually capable of being decisive sometimes. If the UFP were actually like the UN then the Borg would have assimilated Earth while the Federation Council discussed whether there was precedent for levying sanctions on a Hive Mind Society.

Oh, I know. I tend to think of the Federation and Starfleet as separate entities sometimes.

Although... Prime Directive. if not for some rogue(ish) Captains, the Federation would be screwed.

dadudemon
So what does the thread OP actually entail?

And, there is an episode in TNG that says that TFoP doesn't use money as it's useless in their time. (Picard said it.)

Sadako of Girth
And in the movie First contact, Im sure Picard mentions it when giving Alfre Woodard the his at gunpoint 1st tour of the Enterprise.. Im may be wrong, but Im sure I remember that as hes updating her as to Mankind moving on from factionism, and greed of wealth 'n stuff....

-Pr-
Money isn't used within the Federation. They do have a form of currency to deal with other species though (many Starfleet officers have personal latinum funds, for instance).

Omega Vision
I remember an episode involving people from the 21st century thawed from cryogenics chambers, one of which was a big shot Investor type who was horrified to discover that all the money he'd saved up no longer existed.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I remember an episode involving people from the 21st century thawed from cryogenics chambers, one of which was a big shot Investor type who was horrified to discover that all the money he'd saved up no longer existed.

Yeah, "The Neutral Zone", no more dollars for him lol.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by -Pr-
Yeah, "The Neutral Zone", no more dollars for him lol.
It was lulzy how even after being told the date he still wanted to contact his lawyer...who'd been dead for two centuries.

GaDaffy Duck
Originally posted by the ninjak
Money didn't exist in this reality!

How can money or a Stock Market exist when you can make anything you want! Gold, Art, MONEY!!!!!!!!

People earned respect in their feats and sacrifices. Bums got fed and lived their lives....sounds perfect.

Exactly they are a bit like a less liberal Iain Banks 'Culture', I think the Federation will one day evolve to that if they had enough positronic brains. ;-) Law would have done well in the culture spy lot lol.

Darth Jello
The UFP more or less eliminated the whole concept of scarcity within its territory. No scarcity means no logical need for money in any real sense since everything is more or less abundant. Everyone either joins the military or follows his or her pursuits as it suits them. I don't really see how capitalism has any relevance for a majority of people and for those that can't find what they need, they can always buy stuff from Ferengi.

Shey Tapani
" they can always buy stuff from Ferengi."

with what?

They dont have money?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Shey Tapani
" they can always buy stuff from Ferengi."

with what?

They dont have money?

Starfleet officers get their hands on Latinum. It's never been explained how, but even the crew of DS9 had to pay for food and drink in quark's bar.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by -Pr-
Starfleet officers get their hands on Latinum. It's never been explained how, but even the crew of DS9 had to pay for food and drink in quark's bar.
Latinum can't be replicated right?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Latinum can't be replicated right?

Right. So they must have to barter or something. Some of them gamble too.

the ninjak
Is Latinum an element that can't be replicated?

-Pr-
Originally posted by the ninjak
Is Latinum an element that can't be replicated?

Yes. It seems to be an actual element, from what I can tell. It gets stored within bars of gold for currency purposes (as Latinum's standard state seems to be a liquid).

the ninjak
Interesting that they can replicate humans and not an element.
It must be very complex.

-Pr-
Originally posted by the ninjak
Interesting that they can replicate humans and not an element.
It must be very complex.

Replicate humans?

the ninjak
Originally posted by -Pr-
Replicate humans?

Yeah, teleportation.

1. Scan a human body.

2. Destroy it.

3. Recreate it somewhere else.

-Pr-
Originally posted by the ninjak
Yeah, teleportation.

1. Scan a human body.

2. Destroy it.

3. Recreate it somewhere else.

I don't think it's quite the same thing.

it's more about taking it apart and putting together, rather than just destroying and then creating anew.

Entity
Before we start to fight I'd like to say I actually agree with you but if thats the case how do you explain Riker and Tomas?

-Pr-
Originally posted by Entity
Before we start to fight I'd like to say I actually agree with you but if thats the case how do you explain Riker and Tomas?

Because the transporter chief copied riker's signal to a second beam, planning to reincorporate the two beams when it got back to the ship.

honestly, that one episode really flies in the face of the way the transporters are supposed to work.

the ninjak
Originally posted by -Pr-
I don't think it's quite the same thing.

it's more about taking it apart and putting together, rather than just destroying and then creating anew.

Same things aren't they?

My mate believes once the Trekers teleport they lose their souls.

Become golems.

-Pr-
Originally posted by the ninjak
Same things aren't they?

My mate believes once the Trekers teleport they lose their souls.

Become golems.

Not especially imo. The transporter might take you apart, but it keeps what it takes apart and then puts it back together. It's still "you" so to speak.

The soul thing is a debate even among Trekkies. It doesn't help that they have heisenberg compensators that aren't even explained.

the ninjak
Originally posted by -Pr-
Not especially imo. The transporter might take you apart, but it keeps what it takes apart and then puts it back together. It's still "you" so to speak.

The soul thing is a debate even among Trekkies. It doesn't help that they have heisenberg compensators that aren't even explained.

That's what I find hard to believe.

An away team is on a daring rescue mission and the ship is about to be blown up. The Enterprise beams them out and they appear on the ship. Energy appears around them then there is nothing. Ten seconds later those particles appear on the ship. Those particles go through the hull of the ship and to where they need to be "recreated".

They make food out of thin air. Resources to make Starships. But they can't or are not allowed to clone 20 Picards.

-Pr-
Originally posted by the ninjak
That's what I find hard to believe.

An away team is on a daring rescue mission and the ship is about to be blown up. The Enterprise beams them out and they appear on the ship. Energy appears around them then there is nothing. Ten seconds later those particles appear on the ship. Those particles go through the hull of the ship and to where they need to be "recreated".

They make food out of thin air. Resources to make Starships. But they can't or are not allowed to clone 20 Picards.

its an energy beam. their bodies are demolecularised, but are kept within the matter stream, then carried to the ship and reassembled on the transporter pad.

the food is created by matter manipulation and molecule reorganisation, it's not created out of thin air. and they have to mine a lot of the heavy materials to make ships. they don't just replicate them.

there are several things replicators simply can't make, including objects far too complex to replicate, like latinum, people, i think dilithium is in there too.

iirc its something to do with the resolution or something.

the ninjak
Cool thanks for the separation of methods.

Darth Jello
Hate to discuss politics and economics on a Star Trek forum, but bottom line is that capitalism has no point and no place once you eliminate scarcity from society.

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