........vs Superman without his weaknesses

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lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

shokosugi
superman 10/10 all day

supremthor
Without exploitation
1. = 6/10
2. = 6/10
3. = 7/10

darthgoober
Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

1. Supes wins 7/10
2. Supes loses 8/10(Surfer can still drain/manipulate Supes's internal energies, Supes loses 6-7 if that's taken away too)
3. Supes loses 6-7/10(For same reason as Surfer, split even if manipulating his energy's taken away too)

-Pr-
Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

Clark will take all three imo, and Hal is the one i'd worry about the most.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober

2. Supes loses 8/10(Surfer can still drain/manipulate Supes's internal energies, Supes loses 6-7 if that's taken away too)
you gots to be kidding.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
you gots to be kidding.
Nope, not even a little bit.

Slaanesh
1. Supes win 10/10
2. Surfer win 10/10
3. Hal win 7/10

Naija boy
Originally posted by darthgoober
1. Supes wins 7/10
2. Supes loses 8/10(Surfer can still drain/manipulate Supes's internal energies, Supes loses 6-7 if that's taken away too)
3. Supes loses 6-7/10(For same reason as Surfer, split even if manipulating his energy's taken away too)

thumb up though id give him like a 5.5- 6/10 majority over hal if maniping his energy is taken away.

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
1. Supes wins 7/10
2. Supes loses 8/10(Surfer can still drain/manipulate Supes's internal energies, Supes loses 6-7 if that's taken away too)
3. Supes loses 6-7/10(For same reason as Surfer, split even if manipulating his energy's taken away too)

thumb up

I can buy that. People forget that Hal and the Silver Surfer have more options than weaknesses-exploitation and are infinitely more versatile than a Kryptonian.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
Nope, not even a little bit. wait, are you giving odds with the characters fighting in character...or with you controlling Surfer?

JakeTheBank
1. Superman wins anywhere from 5-6/10
2. Superman wins 3/10
3. Superman wins 3/10

darthgoober
Originally posted by Naija boy
thumb up though id give him like a 5.5- 6/10 majority over hal if maniping his energy is taken away.
Oh I'd given him the majority over any other Lantern(even Kyle or Alan) in those circumstances, but Hal's worked with Supes a LONG time. It's the combination of experience and versatility I see allowing him to split even.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
wait, are you giving odds with the characters fighting in character...or with you controlling Surfer?
In character of course(but still bloodlusted and without PIS). Give me Surfer's powers and I'd stomp Supes any day of the weak and twice on Sunday...

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
In character of course. Give me Surfer's powers and I'd stomp Supes any day of the weak and twice on Sunday... I doubt Surfer would have the opportunity to try to suck energy outta superman

superman would be coming at him HARD and FAST

knock surfer off his board and Superman gains an overwhelming mobility advantage...Surfer's not used to fighting someone who can blitz with the power superman has

Superman has faced Surfer like foes and triumphed

Naija boy
Originally posted by darthgoober
Oh I'd given him the majority over any other Lantern(even Kyle or Alan) in those circumstances, but Hal's worked with Supes a LONG time. It's the combination of experience and versatility I see allowing him to split even.

Fair point,

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
I doubt Surfer would have the opportunity to try to suck energy outta superman
Based on what?

Originally posted by Starscream M
superman would be coming at him HARD and FAST
And?

Originally posted by Starscream M
knock surfer off his board and Superman gains an overwhelming mobility advantage...Surfer's not used to fighting someone who can blitz with the power superman has
Assuming Surfer fought like a moron and let Supes get in a hit, he'd then have to worry about getting nailed by a silver surfboard. It's actually safer to fight Surfer on his board then off it if you're a primarily a melee fighter.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Superman has faced Surfer like foes and triumphed
Did they have feats equal to Surfer's across the board and did fight them in a PIS free enviornment? If not, doesn't matter...

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
Based on what? his fights with terrax, thor, brb..etc. I don't recall him sucking energy during those fights.

Originally posted by darthgoober

And? Superman's unique combo of speed and power is something Surfer has never faced before. He will be overwhelmed.

Originally posted by darthgoober

Assuming Surfer fought like a moron and let Supes get in a hit, he'd then have to worry about getting nailed by a silver surfboard. It's actually safer to fight Surfer on his board then off it if you're a primarily a melee fighter. wrong. Surfer is far more a threat on the board. Off it, he's handicapped. He can't fly or move fast.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
his fights with terrax, thor, brb..etc. I don't recall him sucking energy during those fights.

Superman's unique combo of speed and power is something Surfer has never faced before. He will be overwhelmed.

wrong. Surfer is far more a threat on the board. Off it, he's handicapped. He can't fly or move fast.

Surfer has sed the enrgy drain in numerous fights against hulk,firelord,pyschoman etc. bringing up thor and BRB is foolish since there is no energy to drain and he is able to beat terrax so easily that he doesnt have to.

Off as well as on his board, surfer has forcefields to protect himself and the board becomes an additional extremely dangerous melee weapon that can operate at speeds faster than supes.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
his fights with terrax, thor, brb..etc. I don't recall him sucking energy during those fights.
None of those characters are essentially energy batteries like Superman. Also, when facing beings like JackofHears who biology stores energy for later use, the Surfer has manipulated said energy.

Originally posted by Starscream M

Superman's unique combo of speed and power is something Surfer has never faced before. He will be overwhelmed.
Yes he has. You'd be surprised how many Superman clones there are in the Marvel Universe.


Originally posted by Starscream M

wrong. Surfer is far more a threat on the board. Off it, he's handicapped. He can't fly or move fast.
It depends. Off the board he can potentially trap his opponent within the board ending the fight fairly quickly.

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn


Yes he has. You'd be surprised how many Superman clones there are in the Marvel Universe.
Who has Surfer faced that has a combination of Superman's speed blitz ability and power?

Gladiator comes to mind, but he is a known jobber.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
Who has Surfer faced that has a combination of Superman's speed blitz ability and power?

Gladiator comes to mind, but he is a known jobber.

Krosakis = Gladiator + Uni Power

-Pr-
honestly, superman has fought energy users before, people that would be capable of taking his solar energy. it doesn't work unless you can cut him off from the sun.

without weakness exploitation, i see superman taking norrin for a majority.

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-
honestly, superman has fought energy users before, people that would be capable of taking his solar energy. it doesn't work unless you can cut him off from the sun.

without weakness exploitation, i see superman taking norrin for a majority.

Scan of solar energy absorption failing to work from an energy manipulator of surfers calibur? Didnt he tell triumph that such a thing would kill him?

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
honestly, superman has fought energy users before, people that would be capable of taking his solar energy. it doesn't work unless you can cut him off from the sun.

without weakness exploitation, i see superman taking norrin for a majority.

Didn't Superman admit that Triumph could kill him rather easily by siphoning, or cutting off the solar energy from his cells to the rest of his body? No reason SS couldn't do the same.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Scan of solar energy absorption failing to work from an energy manipulator of surfers calibur? Didnt he tell triumph that such a thing would kill him?

What he said.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Naija boy
Scan of solar energy absorption failing to work from an energy manipulator of surfers calibur? Didnt he tell triumph that such a thing would kill him?

Originally posted by TheKahn
Didn't Superman admit that Triumph could kill him rather easily by siphoning, or cutting off the solar energy from his cells to the rest of his body? No reason SS couldn't do the same.

removing the solar energy from superman's body doesn't kill him. it makes him powerless.

plus, they were indoors at the time.

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-
removing the solar energy from superman's body doesn't kill him. it makes him powerless.

plus, they were indoors at the time.

Yes so even if it doesnt kill him we know it will at least give surfer a large advantage. So as i said before instance/scan of supes resisting solar energy absorption from a manipulator of surfers calibur?(whether inside or outside).

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
removing the solar energy from superman's body doesn't kill him. it makes him powerless.

plus, they were indoors at the time.

Powerless = dead against SS.

Also, creating some sort of physical barrier between Superman and the Sun would be quite easy for a matter manipulator as powerful as SS.

quanchi112
Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles? 1.Superman beats Marvel6-7 times out of ten.

2.Superman beats the Surfer 3 times out of ten.

3.Supes beats Hal 6-7 times out of ten.Originally posted by Starscream M
wait, are you giving odds with the characters fighting in character...or with you controlling Surfer? Surfer's been upgraded and he's more than powerful enough to beat/ko without weakness exploitation. You do realize he has been beaten outside someone weakening him first, right?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
his fights with terrax, thor, brb..etc. I don't recall him sucking energy during those fights.
Do those guys have established histories of being vulnerable to draining? If not then how the Hell do they prove that Surfer "won't have the opportunity" to drain Supes?

Originally posted by Starscream M
Superman's unique combo of speed and power is something Surfer has never faced before. He will be overwhelmed.
You have a speed feat from Supes to support that statement?

Originally posted by Starscream M
wrong. Surfer is far more a threat on the board. Off it, he's handicapped. He can't fly or move fast.
Sure he can, I know you've seen the scan featuring the Hulk. Being off his board just means that Supes has an advantage in travel speed but that's pretty much it, it's not like being off the board decreases his reflexes.

And I didn't say that Surfer was a bigger threat off his board I said it safer for someone who's primarily a melee fighter to fight him while he's on his board. Why? Because this is the kind of thing that normally happens when someone manages to knock him off his board...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/Defenders002-06.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/Thor193-10.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurferv3086-18.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1622/ss3mvu.th.jpg

And those are just the first four instances that sprang to mind, Surfer's history is filled with virtually identicle scenereo's.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Naija boy
Yes so even if it doesnt kill him we know it will at least give surfer a large advantage. So as i said before instance/scan of supes resisting solar energy absorption from a manipulator of surfers calibur?(whether inside or outside).

how? superman's cells can process solar energy as quickly as you can drain it. he's said that on panel.

it was during the ruin arc.

Originally posted by TheKahn
Powerless = dead against SS.

Also, creating some sort of physical barrier between Superman and the Sun would be quite easy for a matter manipulator as powerful as SS.

again, he'd have to actually go and do that while trying to hold off superman.

quanchi112
Originally posted by darthgoober
Do those guys have established histories of being vulnerable to draining? If not then how the Hell do they prove that Surfer "won't have the opportunity" to drain Supes?


You have a speed feat from Supes to support that statement?


Sure he can, I know you've seen the scan featuring the Hulk. Being off his board just means that Supes has an advantage in travel speed but that's pretty much it, it's not like being off the board decreases his reflexes.

And I didn't say that Surfer was a bigger threat off his board I said it safer for someone who's primarily a melee fighter to fight him while he's on his board. Why? Because this is the kind of thing that normally happens when someone manages to knock him off his board...

http://i599.photobucket.com/albums/tt80/comicsage/Silver%20Surfer/combat/Defenders002-06.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/Thor193-10.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurferv3086-18.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1622/ss3mvu.th.jpg

And those are just the first four instances that sprang to mind, Surfer's history is filled with virtually identicle scenereo's. I agree if you separate him from his board the thing can crush you from behind. I loved what he did to Durok.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober


You have a speed feat from Supes to support that statement?

AhahahahAHAHAHAHAHHA....you're jokin, right?

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
AhahahahAHAHAHAHAHHA....you're jokin, right?
No put up or shut up. Give me a speed feat from Supes that suggest his speed will be more than Norrin's reflex's can handle.

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-
how? superman's cells can process solar energy as quickly as you can drain it. he's said that on panel.

it was during the ruin arc.



again, he'd have to actually go and do that while trying to hold off superman.

They could process solar energy as quickly as ruin could drain it (or input red sun radiation iirc). Ruin is not an energy manipulator on SS level (in regards to skill capacity or output) so he doesnt apply at all.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Starscream M
AhahahahAHAHAHAHAHHA....you're jokin, right? He wasn't afraid of the Gladiator was he? Same powerset, basically outside t-vo and he knew how to exploit his weakness as well.

Starscream M
That board behind the back trick won't work against Superman

1) he's a hell of a lot faster than BRB

2) he's not gonna stand still

3) he has super senses and will be aware of the incoming board to avoid it

Starscream M
Originally posted by quanchi112
He wasn't afraid of the Gladiator was he? Same powerset, basically outside t-vo and he knew how to exploit his weakness as well. gladiator...the guy who jobbed to even cannonball? yeah, a real Superman clone roll eyes (sarcastic)

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
That board behind the back trick won't work against Superman

1) he's a hell of a lot faster than BRB

2) he's not gonna stand still

3) he has super senses and will be aware of the incoming board to avoid it

So you think he's going to dodge the board coming from any particular direction, blasts from Surfer, and still get in close enough to start landing punches laughing out loud ? If he spends all his time dodging Surfer will just get back on his board.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Starscream M
That board behind the back trick won't work against Superman

1) he's a hell of a lot faster than BRB

2) he's not gonna stand still

3) he has super senses and will be aware of the incoming board to avoid it Wow. How won't it work when he's busy fending off Surfer's attacks.

1.Speed and reflexes are two different things. He also used the element of surprise on Brb.

2.He will be standing in this fight.

3.False. Your superman won't be touched at all will he?

Originally posted by Starscream M
gladiator...the guy who jobbed to even cannonball? yeah, a real Superman clone roll eyes (sarcastic) That's a low showing and really at his best he stomps all over Cannonball.

Glads isn't even in the same ballpark as Cannonball.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Naija boy
They could process solar energy as quickly as ruin could drain it (or input red sun radiation iirc). Ruin is not an energy manipulator on SS level (in regards to skill capacity or output) so he doesnt apply at all.

it does when using red sun radiation is the most effective way of removing yellow sun radiation from superman's cells.

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-

again, he'd have to actually go and do that while trying to hold off superman.

He doesn't have to PIS and CIS off. Phasing through matter FTW:
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1445/galactusthedevourer113ms9.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3526/galactusthedevourer119xy5.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2893/galactusthedevourer206gh3.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9529/galactusthedevourer316kp0.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6663/galactusthedevourer504qz8.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8774/homecoming06phasingyv9.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3603/silversurfer199612310ue8.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8205/ssenslavers43phasingwn5.jpg

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
So you think he's going to dodge the board coming from any particular direction, blasts from Surfer, and still get in close enough to start landing punches laughing out loud ? If he spends all his time dodging Surfer will just get back on his board. you mean Superman would have to dodge straight traveling blasts and a board at the same time?!!!

OHMIGOD...he could NEVER do thaaat. I mean, after all, his speed is only slightly below that of the Flash roll eyes (sarcastic) laughing

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
He doesn't have to PIS and CIS off. Phasing through matter FTW:
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/1445/galactusthedevourer113ms9.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/3526/galactusthedevourer119xy5.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2893/galactusthedevourer206gh3.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/9529/galactusthedevourer316kp0.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6663/galactusthedevourer504qz8.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8774/homecoming06phasingyv9.jpg

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3603/silversurfer199612310ue8.jpg

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8205/ssenslavers43phasingwn5.jpg

i've seen that. and? superman can go intangible too.

someone like you, or goober, with norrin's powers, yes, would do well against superman and probably win. norrin himself? not imo.

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn
He doesn't have to PIS and CIS off. Phasing through matter FTW:
CIS is on though.

also, phasing through walls is nice and all but he has never used it offensively has he?

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
i've seen that. and? superman can go intangible too.

someone like you, or goober, with norrin's powers, yes, would do well against superman and probably win. norrin himself? not imo.

The point was that Norrin can easily avoid a physical confrontation with Superman through his intangibility giving him ample time to use his numerous other abilities to take Superman down.

Take away Superman's ability to physically touch the SS and he'd be as impotent against the Surfer as you, me, or Uncle Ben.

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-
it does when using red sun radiation is the most effective way of removing yellow sun radiation from superman's cells.

Yes it the most effective and thats why i didnt dwell on the fact that the process used to remove the energy was through red sun radiation. However Ruins output is nowhere near that of SS(not even close to half) and so he cant be used as a basis for comparison.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Starscream M
you mean Superman would have to dodge straight traveling blasts and a board at the same time?!!!

OHMIGOD...he could NEVER do thaaat. I mean, after all, his speed is only slightly below that of the Flash roll eyes (sarcastic) laughing Basically Superman dodges everything and what is the Surfer doing just firing blanks the entire time?

I can insert many characters Superman has faced and he's been hit multiple times.

Examples: Orion, Darkseid, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Wonderwoman, Kalibak, Henshaw, Zod, Amazo, Thor, Triumph, Superboy Prime, Mantis, Arion, Subjekt 17, etc. Need I go on?

So your point is despite his history he dodges every single attack by the Surfer even if Surfer uses his board while Superman's attention is on the Surfer who is in front of him? I mean come on.

Both characters are going to hit and blast and each other. You can't have it all your own way and ignore his history trying to give him some sort of cbr edge.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
you mean Superman would have to dodge straight traveling blasts and a board at the same time?!!!

OHMIGOD...he could NEVER do thaaat. I mean, after all, his speed is only slightly below that of the Flash roll eyes (sarcastic) laughing


What makes you so sure they'll be "strait traveling" blasts in a non PIS enviornment...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/6162/fm198001316gj5.jpg

And are you going to back up ANYTHING you've been saying or are you just putting in an appearance as a naysayer who gets proven wrong at every turn?

Tell you what you and me, Battlezone between Supes and Surfer. You up for it?

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober

Tell you what you and me, Battlezone between Supes and Surfer. You up for it? in character and no PIS...sure

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
in character and no PIS...sure
Don't forget bloodlusted. Anyway, when?

Naija boy
LMAO. really that would be downright unfair.

kgkg
Originally posted by Naija boy
LMAO. really that would be downright unfair. Why?

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
Don't forget bloodlusted. Anyway, when? anytime is fine...I'm not familiar with the format and rules of a bz though

Naija boy
Originally posted by kgkg
Why?

Because of the people involved not necessarily the characters........no disrespect to starscream.......

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
Because of the people involved not necessarily the characters........no disrespect to starscream....... how is it no disrespect to me, when it obviously is laughing out loud

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
how is it no disrespect to me, when it obviously is laughing out loud

Well regardless of ur debating abilities (which i wasnt knocking)wink, ur knowledge of superman is fairly limited and u would be defending him against one of the most knowledgeable surfer fans there is......not to mention opinion generally favours surfer against supes......

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
Well regardless of ur debating abilities (which i wasnt knocking), ur knowledge of superman is fairly limited and u would be defending him against one of the most knowledgeable surfer fans there is......not to mention opinion generally favours surfer against supes. ok. your assessment is quite correct.

I plan on studying superman and surfer's respect threads quite intensely in preparation for the disembowelment of Darthgoober big grin

Starscream M
did goober disappear on me right after I accepted?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by darthgoober
What makes you so sure they'll be "strait traveling" blasts in a non PIS enviornment...

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/6162/fm198001316gj5.jpg

And are you going to back up ANYTHING you've been saying or are you just putting in an appearance as a naysayer who gets proven wrong at every turn?

Tell you what you and me, Battlezone between Supes and Surfer. You up for it?
I've heard of curveballs, but curvebolts? That's just crazy cool

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
anytime is fine...I'm not familiar with the format and rules of a bz though
Here's a link(the Battlezone section is last)...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t509723.html

And anytime is good for me too. I'm currently sitting on nearly 2,000 scans of Surfer I was organizing for another revamp on his respect thread so we can start tonight if you're up for it(but I figure you'll want to take your time and prepare, which is fine).

BTW what kind of stipulations are you looking for? We can just do Surfer vs Supes, Surfer vs Supes as in this thread(no red sun or k-nite), or just Surfer vs Supes with no weakness exploitation, it doesn't really matter to me cause Surfer wins the majority in any of them.

Originally posted by Starscream M
did goober disappear on me right after I accepted?
Power surge. Had to let my computer restart.

kgkg
Originally posted by Naija boy
Because of the people involved not necessarily the characters........no disrespect to starscream....... Ahh I would love to see a Superman without his weaknesses exploit vs Surfer bz.

Naija boy
Originally posted by kgkg
Ahh I would love to see a Superman without his weaknesses exploit vs Surfer bz.

yeah i would to.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
Here's a link(the Battlezone section is last)...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f105/t509723.html

And anytime is good for me too. I'm currently sitting on nearly 2,000 scans of Surfer I was organizing for another revamp on his respect thread so we can start tonight if you're up for it(but I figure you'll want to take your time and prepare, which is fine).

BTW what kind of stipulations are you looking for? We can just do Surfer vs Supes, Surfer vs Supes as in this thread(no red sun or k-nite), or just Surfer vs Supes with no weakness exploitation, it doesn't really matter to me cause Surfer wins the majority in any of them. yeah, I would like to maybe have a week's time to leisurely study the necessary material

One stipulation I would propose: any feat or power used must have been demonstrated in at least 3 occasions (otherwise, it's barred)

I would like to do a Superman vs Surfer (anything goes, but all in character) match

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
yeah, I would like to maybe have a week's time to leisurely study the necessary material

One stipulation I would propose: any feat or power used must have been demonstrated in at least 3 occasions (otherwise, it's barred)

I would like to do a Superman vs Surfer (anything goes, but all in character) match
I'm good with most stipulations, but Supes's appearance count is probably more than 3 times as high as Surfer's(even with Pre Crisis tossed out) and Surfer has a far more diverse powerset to demonstrate in each issue so I'll most likely reject the feat number stip unless you're talking about broad spectrum rather than repeating individual/specific feats.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm good with most stipulations, but Supes's appearance count is 3 times as high as Surfer's(even with Pre Crisis tossed out) and Surfer has a far more diverse powerset to demonstrate in each issue so I'll most likely reject the feat number stip unless you're talking about broad spectrum rather than repeating individual/specific feats. ok, how bout the feat/power must've been used at least twice. I don't like off-the wall one time powers that often just may have occurred due to ignorant writing.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, how bout the feat/power must've been used at least twice. I don't like off-the wall one time powers that often just may have occurred due to ignorant writing.
There's a difference between feats and powers so you'll have to come up with some examples of what you mean. If you mean that I have to show Surfer using something like offensive transmutation or internal energy manipulating twice in combat that's fine, if you mean he has to use the exact same technique in each instance it penalizes Surfer for having an open ended powerset which I'm not cool with(since his open ended powerset factors into why I see him winning anything but a h2h scenereo between the two). That's why I said it would be an ok stip in broad spectrum but not on an individual feat basis.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
There's a difference between feats and powers so you'll have to come up with some examples of what you mean. If you mean that I have to show Surfer using something like offensive transmutation or internal energy manipulating twice in combat that's fine, if you mean he has to use the exact same technique in each instance it penalizes Surfer for having an open ended powerset which I'm not cool with(since his open ended powerset factors into why I see him winning anything but a h2h scenereo between the two). That's why I said it would be an ok stip in broad spectrum but not on an individual feat basis. it doesn't have to be two exact feats

ie, if you show Surfer transmuting a pig and later on transmuting a horse...then its accepted he can transmute organic matter

or if you show him curving his blasts on two different (ie not in the same comic) occasions, then I'll accept it.

mostly, the 2 instance rule will apply to pre-modern surfer feats (before the 90s). feats after the 90s (or some other time we agree upon) are ok even if they occurred only once.

you have an advantage in that you can pull alot of feats from the hyperbolic age of comics, whereas for superman, those feats are not usable. I'd like to fight on equal ground.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Starscream M
it doesn't have to be two exact feats

ie, if you show Surfer transmuting a pig and later on transmuting a horse...then its accepted he can transmute organic matter

or if you show him curving his blasts on two different (ie not in the same comic) occasions, then I'll accept it.

mostly, the 2 instance rule will apply to pre-modern surfer feats (before the 90s). feats after the 90s (or some other time we agree upon) are ok even if they occurred only once.

you have an advantage in that you can pull alot of feats from the hyperbolic age of comics, whereas for superman, those feats are not usable. I'd like to fight on equal ground. Superman still has more appearances so it's not equal ground by any stretch of the imagination. Superman appears in pretty much every major crossover and has how many monthly titles? You think this is fair for the Surfer?

My bad. I thought you said he couldn't use anything pre 90's.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
it doesn't have to be two exact feats

ie, if you show Surfer transmuting a pig and later on transmuting a horse...then its accepted he can transmute organic matter

or if you show him curving his blasts on two different (ie not in the same comic) occasions, then I'll accept it.

mostly, the 2 instance rule will apply to pre-modern surfer feats (before the 90s). feats after the 90s (or some other time we agree upon) are ok even if they occurred only once.

you have an advantage in that you can pull alot of feats from the hyperbolic age of comics, whereas for superman, those feats are not usable. I'd like to fight on equal ground.
Well then yeah as long as you're not talking about exact feats I'm cool with that.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
Well then yeah as long as you're not talking about exact feats I'm cool with that. ok cool

for our 3 judges, I'd like to nominate: Avlon, Pr, and Philosophia

are you ok with that?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Starscream M
ok cool

for our 3 judges, I'd like to nominate: Avlon, Pr, and Philosophia

are you ok with that? laughing out loud

big juggy man
Have you people noticed that Dc comic fans, Incredible Hulk fans and Thor fans are the worse fanboys here? Superman loses the majority to each of these people

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
ok cool

for our 3 judges, I'd like to nominate: Avlon, Pr, and Philosophia

are you ok with that?
laughing out loud

I was actually going to suggest a "Judges Wanted" match.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by big juggy man
Have you people noticed that Dc comic fans, Incredible Hulk fans and Thor fans are the worse fanboys here? Superman loses the majority to each of these people

Not true. Every character has fanboys of varying degrees of insanity.

quanchi112
Originally posted by big juggy man
Have you people noticed that Dc comic fans, Incredible Hulk fans and Thor fans are the worse fanboys here? Superman loses the majority to each of these people Who are you again?

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
laughing out loud

I was actually going to suggest a "Judges Wanted" match. its actually pretty hard to select judges for this match: as most people have made up their minds one way or the other.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
its actually pretty hard to select judges for this match: as most people have made up their minds one way or the other.
That's why I suggested a Judges Wanted match. It's an actual matchtype described at the end of the Battlezone rules.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
That's why I suggested a Judges Wanted match. It's an actual matchtype described at the end of the Battlezone rules. I don't think that's a good idea...it opens up room for trolling and spamming. I'd rather have a defined number of judges who I know will actually read the debate.

on second thought, I guess I would be ok with a judges wanted match.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
I don't think that's a good idea...it opens up room for trolling and spamming. I'd rather have a defined number of judges who I know will actually read the debate.

on second thought, I guess I would be ok with a judges wanted match.
No one else is allowed to post until the match is over. Socking is always a risk of course, but the restrictions on eligable judges keeps if from being to big of a deal.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
No one else is allowed to post until the match is over. Socking is always a risk of course, but the restrictions on eligable judges keeps if from being to big of a deal. ok. let's set a post limit...10 posts max each? only 10 posts...no non-official post bs.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
ok. let's set a post limit...10 posts max each? only 10 posts...no non-official post bs.
Post counts are kinda formal and lead to tediously long winded posts, I'd rather just have a time limit(like a week or so). I'm involved in a tourney and the rough draft for my opening post was 15,000 chacters long just to give you an example of that type of debate. I mean we can do that kind of thing if you really want(I know you've never been in a tourney and might be interested in that type of structure), but just know there's very little in the way of "back and forth action" so it probably won't be very fun for either of us.

carver9
Originally posted by Starscream M
gladiator...the guy who jobbed to even cannonball? yeah, a real Superman clone roll eyes (sarcastic)


Gladiator didnt job that entire fight, he crushed Cannonball and was about to send him to the core of the sun until cannonball absorbed the punch.

Now answer this question, who wouldnt that trick work against (cannonball absorbing all of your kinetic energy)?

That was cannonball only lick in that entire fight and it did nothing. So stop calling it a low showing when its not.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm involved in a tourney and the rough draft for my opening post was 15,000 chacters long just to give you an example of that type of debate. jesus.

my intro post was basically "Superman is too fast and too strong. He blitzes Surfer's head off."

I'm in favor of a post limit because I don't want to be simply overwhelmed by opposing posts. Also, limited posts allow for a perhaps more organized debate that both contestants and judges will appreciate. A complete back and forth may be more entertaining but will also be more messy, prone to going to tangents, and hard to follow.

anyways, we can discuss this more later. I'm tired.

BattleMage
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer has sed the enrgy drain in numerous fights against hulk,firelord,pyschoman etc. bringing up thor and BRB is foolish since there is no energy to drain and he is able to beat terrax so easily that he doesnt have to.

Off as well as on his board, surfer has forcefields to protect himself and the board becomes an additional extremely dangerous melee weapon that can operate at speeds faster than supes. Co-sign

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
The point was that Norrin can easily avoid a physical confrontation with Superman through his intangibility giving him ample time to use his numerous other abilities to take Superman down.

Take away Superman's ability to physically touch the SS and he'd be as impotent against the Surfer as you, me, or Uncle Ben.

what's the likelihood of him actually doing it, though?

Originally posted by Naija boy
Yes it the most effective and thats why i didnt dwell on the fact that the process used to remove the energy was through red sun radiation. However Ruins output is nowhere near that of SS(not even close to half) and so he cant be used as a basis for comparison.

why not? you assume surfer can just remove days worth of solar energy from superman's cells before superman can mount his own offence?

carver9
Originally posted by Starscream M
jesus.

my intro post was basically "Superman is too fast and too strong. He blitzes Surfer's head off."

I'm in favor of a post limit because I don't want to be simply overwhelmed by opposing posts. Also, limited posts allow for a perhaps more organized debate that both contestants and judges will appreciate. A complete back and forth may be more entertaining but will also be more messy, prone to going to tangents, and hard to follow.

anyways, we can discuss this more later. I'm tired.

Starscream, not saying anything about you but you are going to lose this. Surfer feats is just on a different level than most if not all high heralds.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
Starscream, not saying anything about you but you are going to lose this. Surfer feats is just on a different level than most if not all high heralds.

not really. erm

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
not really. erm

One of his latest feats was creating blast so strong that it spurred up a black hole that was seen light years away and thanos even had to flee. Again, these were mere blast.

-Pr-
Originally posted by carver9
One of his latest feats was creating blast so strong that it spurred up a black hole that was seen light years away and thanos even had to flee. Again, these were mere blast.

it was no "mere blast". i saw the feat myself.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
jesus.

my intro post was basically "Superman is too fast and too strong. He blitzes Surfer's head off."

I'm in favor of a post limit because I don't want to be simply overwhelmed by opposing posts. Also, limited posts allow for a perhaps more organized debate that both contestants and judges will appreciate. A complete back and forth may be more entertaining but will also be more messy, prone to going to tangents, and hard to follow.

anyways, we can discuss this more later. I'm tired.
Sounds cool, I'll be around tomorrow so we can talk about it then.

In fairness to Blair though, if we go with the post count we'll have to wait until I'm done with the tourney. Essay posts take time and I'd feel bad if Blair and I lost the tourney because I was trying to divide my attention between the workloads. We can still do it of course, it'll just be a bit before I'm avalible.

manx422
Originally posted by shokosugi
superman 10/10 all day thumb up

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
what's the likelihood of him actually doing it, though?


blink
How the hell should I know? I'd assume its about the same as Superman using his myriad of powers instead of just his fists the next time he fights a brick. Same goes for Thor.

In the end, the only "odds" that really matter are the odds that each character gets a writer who knows the extent of the characters powersets and is creative enough to use them thoroughly. For the purposes of this forum, SS would have to fight like a mentally impaired lemur and forget to use most of his established powers for Superman to stand a chance.

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-

why not? you assume surfer can just remove days worth of solar energy from superman's cells before superman can mount his own offence?

Surfer has drained his exact equal in power in seconds. Its not a long process at all. Regardless that is a different point altogether with nothing to do with the ruin incident which i have shown to be invalid.

manx422
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer has drained his exact equal in power in seconds. Its not a long process at all. Regardless that is a different point altogether with nothing to do with the ruin incident which i have shown to be invalid. proof said character was superman's equal

r0nm0n88
1. supes 5.5/10
2. if its purely a battle, and no draining energies and such. supes 6/10
3. same as above

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
blink
How the hell should I know? I'd assume its about the same as Superman using his myriad of powers instead of just his fists the next time he fights a brick. Same goes for Thor.

In the end, the only "odds" that really matter are the odds that each character gets a writer who knows the extent of the characters powersets and is creative enough to use them thoroughly. For the purposes of this forum, SS would have to fight like a mentally impaired lemur and forget to use most of his established powers for Superman to stand a chance.

but superman has on panel showings of deciding to stop playing around. you're talking about a very specific combat maneuvre.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer has drained his exact equal in power in seconds. Its not a long process at all. Regardless that is a different point altogether with nothing to do with the ruin incident which i have shown to be invalid.

so he's going to: examine superman to find out that he's powered by the sun. come up with a way to absorb days worth of stored solar energy in a matter of miliseconds, and he's going to accomplish all of this while avoiding superman?

it's not invalid at all. it's the best example you're going to find of superman being drained.

TheKahn
Originally posted by -Pr-
but superman has on panel showings of deciding to stop playing around. you're talking about a very specific combat maneuvre.
I was just giving one example of how the Silver Surfer could win without Superman being able to lay a hand on him. His other abilities that could Superman has no clear ability to counter include but are not limited to:
interdenominational teleportation
telepathy
illusion casting
bio-energy manipulation
DNA manipulation
matter manipulation
surfboard intrapment

Honestly, I think its Superman's popularity that keeps him in fights like this more than anything else. If he was a C or D list hero instead of one of DC's Trinity nobody would give him a snowball's chance in hell against someone like SS.

Originally posted by -Pr-

so he's going to: examine superman to find out that he's powered by the sun. come up with a way to absorb days worth of stored solar energy in a matter of miliseconds, and he's going to accomplish all of this while avoiding superman?


Yes no expression

He capable both of nanosecond reactions and instant detection of beings along with their meta-abilities thanks to his cosmic awareness.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/48/marvelcomicspresents001fk4.jpg
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5489/cospowunlim199600411no5.jpg

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn


Honestly, I think its Superman's popularity that keeps him in fights like this more than anything else. If he was a C or D list hero instead of one of DC's Trinity nobody would give him a snowball's chance in hell against someone like SS.


I disagree.

I think it's Superman's resume that makes people think he could take Surfer.

Superman is THE top dog in a universe filled with uber heroes and villains, and Superman is time and again the one called to save the day when all others fail.

Sure, Surfer has a shitload of fancy powers, but Superman's effectiveness out-trumps Surfer's versatility imo.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
I disagree.

I think it's Superman's resume that makes people think he could take Surfer.

Superman is THE top dog in a universe filled with uber heroes and villains, and Superman is time and again the one called to save the day when all others fail.

Sure, Surfer has a shitload of fancy powers, but Superman's effectiveness out-trumps Surfer's versatility imo.

That kind of proves my point there. Similarly to Batman's mythical ability to "find a way to win," it appears that Superman's "effectiveness" (read: popularity) triumphs any real advantage his opponent has.

The only way Superman can win is with his fists, while the Surfer has nearly a dozen different ways to win thank to all his "fancy powers," yet none of that matters because Superman is more "effective".

Yep. You've convinced me. no expression

carver9
Originally posted by -Pr-
it was no "mere blast". i saw the feat myself.

But it was still a blast that came from Surfer that was so powerful that it created a big a** black hole.

Imagine the type of power Surfer has to have in order to pull that off.
Surfer power level in the high herald is completely different than almost everyone (besides Thor) on that list.

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn


The only way Superman can win is with his fists, while the Surfer has nearly a dozen different ways to win thank to all his "fancy powers," yet none of that matters because Superman is more "effective".

Yep. You've convinced me. no expression Yes, effectiveness trumps versatility.

I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was showing off his amazing sword skills, and then Indy just shoots him nonchalantly.

Sure, Surfer can turn Superman's cape into gingerbread or evolve a nearby frog into some emokid, Superman can rely on his bread butter of speed and power and put the hurtin on Surfer.

And this ain't because Supes is popular. It's because he gets the job done. He has a huge mental advantage against Norrin.

Q99
I'm reminded of a quote on martial arts: "A Master knows hundreds of moves. A champion needs only three".


That is, versatility is nice, but if you can do a few things really well and you're good enough to do them in most situations, you'll win fights about as surely. Superman's really good at fighting even though he just uses strength/speed/heat vision and the rare freeze breath.

Slaanesh
Originally posted by Starscream M
I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was showing off his amazing sword skills, and then Indy just shoots him nonchalantly.

it remind me of that too..Supes is the Arab guy and Surfer is Indy..Supes can show off his skill and speed all he want..Surfer is the one with the firepower and he gonna drop Supes dead..

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
Yes, effectiveness trumps versatility.

I'm reminded of that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was showing off his amazing sword skills, and then Indy just shoots him nonchalantly.

Sure, Surfer can turn Superman's cape into gingerbread or evolve a nearby frog into some emokid, Superman can rely on his bread butter of speed and power and put the hurtin on Surfer.

And this ain't because Supes is popular. It's because he gets the job done. He has a huge mental advantage against Norrin.

No, you have that wrong. The Surfer can turn Superman into gingerbread or devolve Superman into a frog. Please tell me how Superman's "getting the job done" protects him against the Surfer matter/DNA manipulation.

After that please explain how Superman counters the Surfer's interdenominational teleportation, telepathy, illusion casting, bio-energy manipulation, phasing, surfboard entrapment, ect.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Slaanesh
it remind me of that too..Supes is the Arab guy and Surfer is Indy..Supes can show off his skill and speed all he want..Surfer is the one with the firepower and he gonna drop Supes dead..

Exactly. wink

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn
No, you have that wrong. The Surfer can turn Superman into gingerbread or devolve Superman into a frog. Please tell me how Superman's "getting the job done" protects him against the Surfer matter/DNA manipulation.

After that please explain how Superman counters the Surfer's interdenominational teleportation, telepathy, illusion casting, bio-energy manipulation, phasing, surfboard entrapment, ect.

1. surfer cannot turn superman into gingerbread or devolve superman...especially not in the heat of battle. unless you think superman is sitting there in front of Surfer as Surfer applies his concentration to pull off his higher end powers. No, Superman is gonna be zipping at near lightspeed...leaving Surfer busy just fending off superman's assault...the last thing on his mind would be to use some fancy shmancy power that would take concentration and time to pull off.

2. Superman doesn't need to counter teleportation. If surfer wants to run away to another dimension, Superman won't hold it against him.

3. Superman has faced powerful telepaths and has a level of resistance. Superman also has his own rarely shown telepathic abilities...he is a formidable psychic warfare combatant.

4. Illusion casting is useless against one with senses as acute as Superman's. Xray vision will easily detect what is illusion and what is real.

5. see 1.

6. Surfer would not phase into Superman. And even if he did, that would result in possibly a double KO. Or Superman can use frequency vibration to really mess Surfer up good.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
1. surfer cannot turn superman into gingerbread or devolve superman...especially not in the heat of battle. unless you think superman is sitting there in front of Surfer as Surfer applies his concentration to pull off his higher end powers. No, Superman is gonna be zipping at near lightspeed...leaving Surfer busy just fending off superman's assault...the last thing on his mind would be to use some fancy shmancy power that would take concentration and time to pull off.

2. Superman doesn't need to counter teleportation. If surfer wants to run away to another dimension, Superman won't hold it against him.

3. Superman has faced powerful telepaths and has a level of resistance. Superman also has his own rarely shown telepathic abilities...he is a formidable psychic warfare combatant.

4. Illusion casting is useless against one with senses as acute as Superman's. Xray vision will easily detect what is illusion and what is real.

5. see 1.

6. Surfer would not phase into Superman. And even if he did, that would result in possibly a double KO. Or Superman can use frequency vibration to really mess Surfer up good.

None of that makes any sense to anyone who has seen a fraction of the Surfer feats no expression

1. Superman's velocity means nothing to the Surfer thanks to his Cosmic Awareness which allows him to track objects lightyears away traveling at high velocites. Superman's speed isn't enough to prevent the Surfer from using his powers on Superman. What you're basing that assumption on, I don't know.

2. Yes he does or else the Surfer is going to BFR him.

3. He may be resistant, but its still another advantage that the Surfer has over him.

4. The Surfer's illusions have fooled Galactus. Galactus' sense >>> Kryptonian senses

5. Again, Cosmic Awareness allows the Surfer to track objects traveling at high speeds lightyears away. Tracking Superman and using his powers against the Kryptonian isn't going to be a problem.

6. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, but I was referring to the Surfer simply making himself intangible rendering all of Superman's physical powers useless. Also, if you believe Superman's "vibrating" can counter the power cosmic...well, I don't really know how to respond to that.

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn


6. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me, but I was referring to the Surfer simply making himself intangible rendering all of Superman's physical powers useless. Also, if you believe Superman's "vibrating" can counter the power cosmic...well, I don't really know how to respond to that.

Did you realize Superman has used heat vision to fix holes in reality or casually rubbed his hands together to create electrical force fields strong enough to hold together a reality?

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
Did you realize Superman has used heat vision to fix holes in reality or casually rubbed his hands together to create electrical force fields strong enough to hold together a reality?

And you actually want to argue that those feats aren't PIS and are instead depictions of his standard capabilities? no expression

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn
And you actually want to argue that those feats aren't PIS and are instead depictions of his standard capabilities? no expression no...not saying thats his standard capability...but just saying he's known to pull things outta his ass when needed.

essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation.

Just like why Captain America is arguably one of the most effective heroes on the Avengers despite others being smarter or far more powerful. Cap is just bread and butter, he's effective. Superman is like the herald Captain America.

TheKahn
Originally posted by Starscream M
no...not saying thats his standard capability...but just saying he's known to pull things outta his ass when needed.

essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation.

Just like why Captain America is arguably one of the most effective heroes on the Avengers despite others being smarter or far more powerful. Cap is just bread and butter, he's effective. Superman is like the herald Captain America.

wallbash

As far as I know, you're not allowed to count a propensity for PIS as a legitimate attribute on this forum.

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn
wallbash

As far as I know, you're not allowed to count a propensity for PIS as a legitimate attribute on this forum. I don't see it as PIS

it's part of the essential character of Superman and Captain America...it's a big part of what makes them great heroes

if you reduce them to purely their powers and attributes, then neither is very special. it's their will and personality that pushes their powers beyond their respective levels.

Part of what makes Superman such a fearsome sight for villains is that he is so indomitable in spirit. He will always try to dig into that 1% reserve even when he's already given everything. That's what makes a Superman different from a Surfer or a Manhunter imo.

Taking away their characters neuters them. Also, that's why I don't think Surfer is as powerful as you think...because his personality limits the effectiveness of his powers rather than enhances it. Just my opinion.

Just as an analogy, you see this play out in sports. Sometimes the less skilled athlete wins purely because he has more heart and plays harder than his opponent.

Mindship
Originally posted by lawest9
1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.
2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses
3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

1. Supes wins.
2. Supes loses...barely.*
3. Tie.*

Originally posted by Starscream M
* essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation. It's this aspect which concerns me most. Unfortunately for Clark, I find flying standing up cooler than red underoos, so I'm giving Soarin' Norrin the win here.

-Pr-
Originally posted by TheKahn
I was just giving one example of how the Silver Surfer could win without Superman being able to lay a hand on him. His other abilities that could Superman has no clear ability to counter include but are not limited to:
interdenominational teleportation
telepathy
illusion casting
bio-energy manipulation
DNA manipulation
matter manipulation
surfboard intrapment

Honestly, I think its Superman's popularity that keeps him in fights like this more than anything else. If he was a C or D list hero instead of one of DC's Trinity nobody would give him a snowball's chance in hell against someone like SS.



Yes no expression

He capable both of nanosecond reactions and instant detection of beings along with their meta-abilities thanks to his cosmic awareness.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/48/marvelcomicspresents001fk4.jpg
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5489/cospowunlim199600411no5.jpg

half of those won't actually work. they've been tried and failed by people more powerful than surfer.

oh not the cosmic awareness thing again. also, nanoseconds aren't really that impressive, considering that superman is just as fast if not faster reflex wise.

honestly, if you're going to use popularity as an argument, should we even continue this?

Originally posted by carver9
But it was still a blast that came from Surfer that was so powerful that it created a big a** black hole.

Imagine the type of power Surfer has to have in order to pull that off.
Surfer power level in the high herald is completely different than almost everyone (besides Thor) on that list.

no, he's not. a black hole is not the be all and end all of cosmic phenomena.

Philosophía
Khan is a judge. So I'm still thinking if I should kicks his ass all over the thread now or after the tourney is over. mmm

Mindship
Edit

Newjak
Originally posted by -Pr-
half of those won't actually work. they've been tried and failed by people more powerful than surfer.

oh not the cosmic awareness thing again. also, nanoseconds aren't really that impressive, considering that superman is just as fast if not faster reflex wise.

honestly, if you're going to use popularity as an argument, should we even continue this?



no, he's not. a black hole is not the be all and end all of cosmic phenomena. Yeah Surfer has used those abilities on people who are supposed to surpass him power as well. :/

Not saying those will end a match with Superman but it's a ridiculous way to argue. Almost everyone on the High Herald level has done something or taken something or effected something that is supposed to be way out of their level.

Surfer, Thor, Superman, Hal all have done those kinds of things.

TheKahn

Starscream M
Originally posted by TheKahn
Of course. None of the Surfer's laundry list of cosmic powers would work, but Superman can win just by hitting SS really, really hard. How could I not realize that?
it works in comics. that's how hulk always ends up holding his own against Thor even though thor has way more powers and Hulk only has his fists. Rulk even owned thor with just fists. so don't underestimate the power of the FIST!

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-

so he's going to: examine superman to find out that he's powered by the sun. come up with a way to absorb days worth of stored solar energy in a matter of miliseconds, and he's going to accomplish all of this while avoiding superman?

it's not invalid at all. it's the best example you're going to find of superman being drained.

Err....surfer will immediately sense the energy within superman. And what do u mean by come up with a way to absorb days worth of solar energy? Surfer is an energy absorber he will simply draw the energy out of him. Ur attempt to make it seem like it is a long process in which he will have to figure out the complex process of absorption is really reaching and grasping at straws. I never said it will take miliseconds, but it will certainly be alot faster than superman going up to punch surfer since, surfer doesnt even have to be close to superman(or within cqc range) in order to absorb the energy and it can be done extremely quickly.

Actually it is invalid because whether or not its the best example of superman being drained is just irrelevant. Ruin is nowhere near surfers level in regards to energy manip (output,capacity,skilletc). And so to use superman resisting from a highly inferior energy manipulator to suggest that surfer will fail is completely faulty and has no bearings here.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
it works in comics. that's how hulk always ends up holding his own against Thor even though thor has way more powers and Hulk only has his fists. Rulk even owned thor with just fists. so don't underestimate the power of the FIST!

.........And yet on this forum Thor annihilates hulk 10/10. Such occurrences that are obviously due to plot have absolutely no bearings on a KMC environment.

darthgoober
I like how people act as if Surfer using his more exotic abilities will take some significant amount of time. When he disrupted the internal energies of Vision, Wonder Man, and Jack of Hearts each time he did it with pretty much a wave of his hand. When he's drained the Hulk or his double he did it within a panel or two WHILE involved in melee combat. His transmutational abilities take all of about a sec to pull off, and forcefields likely go up even faster. But despite the rapid pace at which he can pull any of this stuff people want to act like Surfer's not going to "have time" because "Supes is going to fly up and hit him" despite Supes lacking even a single speed feat that marks his speed as a potential problem for someone with Surfer's reflex's.

TheKahn
Originally posted by darthgoober
I like how people act as if Surfer using his more exotic abilities will take some significant amount of time. When he disrupted the internal energies of Vision, Wonder Man, and Jack of Hearts each time he did it with pretty much a wave of his hand. When he's drained the Hulk or his double he did it within a panel or two WHILE involved in melee combat. His transmutational abilities take all of about a sec to pull off, and forcefields go up even faster just as quickly. But despite the rapid pace at which he can pull any of this stuff people want to act like Surfer's not going to "have time" because "Supes is going to fly up and hit him" despite Supes lacking even a single speed feat that marks his speed as a potential problem for someone with Surfer's reflex's.

Because this deserves to be posted again. thumb up

darthgoober
Originally posted by Naija boy
Err....surfer will immediately sense the energy within superman. And what do u mean by come up with a way to absorb days worth of solar energy? Surfer is an energy absorber he will simply draw the energy out of him. Ur attempt to make it seem like it is a long process in which he will have to figure out the complex process of absorption is really reaching and grasping at straws. I never said it will take miliseconds, but it will certainly be alot faster than superman going up to punch surfer since, surfer doesnt even have to be close to superman(or within cqc range) in order to absorb the energy and it can be done extremely quickly.

Actually it is invalid because whether or not its the best example of superman being drained is just irrelevant. Ruin is nowhere near surfers level in regards to energy manip (output,capacity,skilletc). And so to use superman resisting from a highly inferior energy manipulator to suggest that surfer will fail is completely faulty and has no bearings here.
thumb up

Surfer's withstood a pounding from Wonder Man, so there's no way Supes can ko him with just his fists since WM's the best example avalible of him taking punches...

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
.........And yet on this forum Thor annihilates hulk 10/10. Such occurrences that are obviously due to plot have absolutely no bearings on a KMC environment.

It's not PIS if it happens over and over again. Even in the recent animated movie, Mindless Hulk was easily overpowering Thor.

KMC members may not be happy with it, but the writers and editors DO intend that Hulk is at least on par, if not superior, to Thor in combat.

And in the end, that matters more imo than what KMC members hold to be true.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
It's not PIS if it happens over and over again. Even in the recent animated movie, Mindless Hulk was easily overpowering Thor.

KMC members may not be happy with it, but the writers and editors DO intend that Hulk is at least on par, if not superior, to Thor in combat.

And in the end, that matters more imo than what KMC members hold to be true.
Actually if you look at the more updated rules, it's specifically noted that Thor will go all out and use his exotic abilities against the Hulk in a forum fight between the two. At least it was last time I checked.

Starscream M
Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually if you look at the more updated rules, it's specifically noted that Thor will go all out and use his exotic abilities against the Hulk in a forum fight between the two. At least it was last time I checked. even if its not in character for him to do so in actual comics? then we're just debating powersets...not characters. I'll agree Surfer's powerset trumps Superman's powerset.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
It's not PIS if it happens over and over again. Even in the recent animated movie, Mindless Hulk was easily overpowering Thor.

KMC members may not be happy with it, but the writers and editors DO intend that Hulk is at least on par, if not superior, to Thor in combat.

And in the end, that matters more imo than what KMC members hold to be true.

This is quite ridiculous reasoning. If u actually read the rules u will see that on KMC characters like thor will use the fullest of his abilities to fight Hulk and hence him NOT doing it in a cartoon or due to the plot in comics is irreelvant.

The battles here are taking place within the KMC environment and hence the characters fight according to these rules. U cant simply ignore the rules and attempt to impose what u believe to be writers intentions thereby handicapping a particular character.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
even if its not in character for him to do so in actual comics? then we're just debating powersets...not characters. I'll agree Surfer's powerset trumps Superman's powerset.
It's "in character" for him if he's ever behaved that way, he doesn't have to do it all the time(or even a lot). Why? Because no comic is set up according to the rules of the forum about bloodlust and no PIS. Trying to say that they'll behave the exact same way in a forum fight that they do in their day to day comics is rediculous. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many people saying that Flash would successfully avoid all of the Hulk's punches and thunderclaps.

Put it this way, in high school I got really angry at this moron who was twice my size for talking shit and started hitting him with a text book. It only happened once because that set of circumstances never happened again, but I still showed that it was within my character for me to do that because I demonstrated the ability and inclination to do so.

Mindship
Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer's withstood a pounding from Wonder Man, so there's no way Supes can ko him with just his fists since WM's the best example avalible of him taking punches... Even better than from an angry Hulk?

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
even if its not in character for him to do so in actual comics? then we're just debating powersets...not characters. I'll agree Surfer's powerset trumps Superman's powerset.

Its in character for him to use his exotic abilities in battles. However plot is what limits thor from doing what he has done against numerous others and thats what KMC rules prevents.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
Its in character for him to use his exotic abilities in battles. However plot is what limits thor from doing what he has done against numerous others and thats what KMC rules prevents. but thor has fought hulk numerous times, and never ever resorted to exotic tactics. that means its unlikely the character would do so against a brawler like hulk...meaning its against his personality to do so.

To argue that thor would use teleportation and antimatter blast against hulk would be to argue how Dr. Doom would fight hulk with thor's powers, defeating the purpose of a thor vs hulk battle.

and please don't say hulk hangs with thor just because he's popular. spiderman is popular as well, and you don't see marvel pitting spiderman against thor...thats because it wouldn't make sense.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Starscream M
but thor has fought hulk numerous times, and never ever resorted to exotic tactics. that means its unlikely the character would do so against a brawler like hulk...meaning its against his personality to do so.

To argue that thor would use teleportation and antimatter blast against hulk would be to argue how Dr. Doom would fight hulk with thor's powers, defeating the purpose of a thor vs hulk battle.

and please don't say hulk hangs with thor just because he's popular. spiderman is popular as well, and you don't see marvel pitting spiderman against thor...thats because it wouldn't make sense.
Spiderman has fought Thor(Masterson anyway) and damn near KO'd him. He's also fought the entire X-Men roster, Hulk, Juggernaught, Absorbing Man, Firelord, and the Silver Surfer. So yeah, popularity factors into it even when it happens over and over again.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
but thor has fought hulk numerous times, and never ever resorted to exotic tactics. that means its unlikely the character would do so against a brawler like hulk...meaning its against his personality to do so.

To argue that thor would use teleportation and antimatter blast against hulk would be to argue how Dr. Doom would fight hulk with thor's powers, defeating the purpose of a thor vs hulk battle.

and please don't say hulk hangs with thor just because he's popular. spiderman is popular as well, and you don't see marvel pitting spiderman against thor...thats because it wouldn't make sense.

Thor has used his exotic powers against bricks like hulk before. However against hulk in particular, marvels desire to promote them as equals causes writers to prevent him from using his exotic powers. This is plot induced stupidity.

To argue that thor would resort to exotic powers (eventually not necessarily from the get go) against hulk is simply arguing for thor operating free from the influence of plot.

Hulk does hang with thor mainly due to popularity and (im a big hulk fan). The spiderman comparison isnt applicable since spiderman isnt even within that range of power at all. Hulk however is on thors level in strength and durability and hence to even things out writers have thor abstain from using his other powers.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Starscream M
It's not PIS if it happens over and over again. Even in the recent animated movie, Mindless Hulk was easily overpowering Thor.

KMC members may not be happy with it, but the writers and editors DO intend that Hulk is at least on par, if not superior, to Thor in combat.

And in the end, that matters more imo than what KMC members hold to be true.

Starscream if your going to do a BZ why wouldn't you have it no weakness exploits? That seems like it would be more fair.. considering many factors...

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
Thor has used his exotic powers against bricks like hulk before.

like who? and which exotic powers did he use?

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
like who? and which exotic powers did he use?

He has BFRed ulik,antigravity blasted superskrull,antiforce blasted mangog, Antiforce blasted a thanos clone,Used an uber oneshot ko lightning bolt on Durok, used wind lightning antiforce and all against the destroyer,godblasted and magic negated juggernaut, used a combination of lightning wind and energy blasts against wonderman etc

h1a8
Originally posted by darthgoober
Spiderman has fought Thor(Masterson anyway) and damn near KO'd him. He's also fought the entire X-Men roster, Hulk, Juggernaught, Absorbing Man, Firelord, and the Silver Surfer. So yeah, popularity factors into it even when it happens over and over again.

That is why one just can't take any ol fight in comics as being valid.

h1a8
Originally posted by lawest9
Supes weaknesses that are exploiterable are removed for these bloodlusted fights.

1. Captain Marvel without the magic weakness.

2. Silver Surfer without the red sun and krytonite weaknesses

3. Green Lantern (Hal) same as fight 2

This is current regular Superman, how does he fare in these battles?

Without magical weaknesses
1. This is an easy fight for Superman. Even if they are the same strength Superman has other extra powers.

2. IMO, SS would lose. Superman would take it to him physically.

3. Hal may win this if he is at his best. IDK about this one though.
All I know is that Superman can busted through his contructs I believe. If Hal duplicates himself multiple times then he easily wins.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Starscream M
no...not saying thats his standard capability...but just saying he's known to pull things outta his ass when needed.

essentially, that is Superman's best power...that separates him from other heralds...it's his ability to perservere and succeed, no matter the odds or situation.

Just like why Captain America is arguably one of the most effective heroes on the Avengers despite others being smarter or far more powerful. Cap is just bread and butter, he's effective. Superman is like the herald Captain America. It's what all heroes do not just Superman. This might be the worst reasoning I have ever heard. Superman wins because he's Superman. I guess in hero vs. villain threads heroes win because they do in comics. Context be damned.

Superman like most other great heroes persevere and do so with a ton of aid varying from one story to the next.Originally posted by Starscream M
it works in comics. that's how hulk always ends up holding his own against Thor even though thor has way more powers and Hulk only has his fists. Rulk even owned thor with just fists. so don't underestimate the power of the FIST! Rulk owned Thor with Thor's hammer. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Starscream M
It's not PIS if it happens over and over again. Even in the recent animated movie, Mindless Hulk was easily overpowering Thor.

KMC members may not be happy with it, but the writers and editors DO intend that Hulk is at least on par, if not superior, to Thor in combat.

And in the end, that matters more imo than what KMC members hold to be true. That has nothing to do with how they are portrayed in comics. In comics Thor fights Hulk's game and still doesn't go down to a monster with healing abilities out the ass and an continued strength increase not using his best abilities.

Marvel doesn't want to give one a clean win over the other because it's a business bottom line and both sides have dedicated fan bases. If Thor uses his best abilities he stomps him. If he swings his hammer at the Hulk the Hulk still hasn't even one fighting Thor at Hulk's own game.


Ps.Thor ko'd the Hulk before though it was brief with a lightning blast.

lawest9
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's what all heroes do not just Superman. This might be the worst reasoning I have ever heard. Superman wins because he's Superman. I guess in hero vs. villain threads heroes win because they do in comics. Context be damned.

Superman like most other great heroes persevere and do so with a ton of aid varying from one story to the next. Rulk owned Thor with Thor's hammer. laughing out loud

That has nothing to do with how they are portrayed in comics. In comics Thor fights Hulk's game and still doesn't go down to a monster with healing abilities out the ass and an continued strength increase not using his best abilities.

Marvel doesn't want to give one a clean win over the other because it's a business bottom line and both sides have dedicated fan bases. If Thor uses his best abilities he stomps him. If he swings his hammer at the Hulk the Hulk still hasn't even one fighting Thor at Hulk's own game.


Ps.Thor ko'd the Hulk before though it was brief with a lightning blast. Still................circumstances have to be taken into account here.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Naija boy
Err....surfer will immediately sense the energy within superman. And what do u mean by come up with a way to absorb days worth of solar energy? Surfer is an energy absorber he will simply draw the energy out of him. Ur attempt to make it seem like it is a long process in which he will have to figure out the complex process of absorption is really reaching and grasping at straws. I never said it will take miliseconds, but it will certainly be alot faster than superman going up to punch surfer since, surfer doesnt even have to be close to superman(or within cqc range) in order to absorb the energy and it can be done extremely quickly.

Actually it is invalid because whether or not its the best example of superman being drained is just irrelevant. Ruin is nowhere near surfers level in regards to energy manip (output,capacity,skilletc). And so to use superman resisting from a highly inferior energy manipulator to suggest that surfer will fail is completely faulty and has no bearings here.

tbh, i'm just not gonna reply, cos i can see our opinions of surfer differ a hell of a lot.

and you missed the point of my actual post too.

Naija boy
Originally posted by -Pr-

and you missed the point of my actual post too.

I highly doubt that as the language used was pretty self explanatory, but to each his own.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
I highly doubt that as the language used was pretty self explanatory, but to each his own. surfer can't suck energy if superman is blitzing him at near lightspeed.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
surfer can't suck energy if superman is blitzing him at near lightspeed.
Surfer is more than fast enough to react to superman and engage him in battle and once again, Absorbing supermans energy which can be done with a wave of the hand AND from a distance can be activated much quicker than superman flying up to surfer to punch him.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
Surfer is more than fast enough to react to superman and engage him in battle and once again, Absorbing supermans energy which can be done with a wave of the hand AND from a distance can be activated much quicker than superman flying up to surfer to punch him. I don't believe that. if he could, then he would be unbeatable...which is clearly not the case.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
I don't believe that. if he could, then he would be unbeatable...which is clearly not the case.

What the heck does that even mean? First of all he has shown to be able to absorb energy(as well as perform many other things simultaneously) with a mere gesture and so that is a fact. Secondly what do u mean it would make him unbeatable? Against the likes of who?

Starscream M
Originally posted by Naija boy
What the heck does that even mean? First of all he has shown to be able to absorb energy(as well as perform many other things simultaneously) with a mere gesture and so that is a fact. Secondly what do u mean it would make him unbeatable? Against the likes of who? Anyone. Everyone sustains themselves through energy in one form or another.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Starscream M
Anyone. Everyone sustains themselves through energy in one form or another.
That is flat out ridiculous. There there are numerous non-energy powered beings in comics . Secod of all there are energy manipulators on a higher level than surfer so ur entire line of logic is completely faulty.

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