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In numerous fights involving Superman and characters such as Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, Thor, and others one major issue keeps coming up: can these characters exploit Superman's weaknesses in a fight? Many people say yes, while many Superman fans say a definitive no.

So the point of this thread is to get views on what level of magical firepower or energy manipulation does a character need to have to be able to win consistently against Superman with only those abilities.

Any thoughts?

Of course competent and high end energy/matter manipulators can exploit Superman weakness. The proff of this is the history of Superman being put down by such exploitations.


If you disagree your most likely Philosophia, Pr, and shokosugi.313wank

Originally posted by id369
Of course competent and high end energy/matter manipulators can exploit Superman weakness. The proff of this is the history of Superman being put down by such exploitations.


If you disagree your most likely Philosophia, Pr, and shokosugi.313wank

Originally posted by id369
Of course competent and high end energy/matter manipulators can exploit Superman weakness. The proff of this is the history of Superman being put down by such exploitations.


If you disagree your most likely Philosophia, Pr, and shokosugi.313wank

i never said high end manipulators couldn't affect superman.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i never said high end manipulators couldn't affect superman.

So why doesn't the Silver Surfer take Superman down 10/10 in a fight?

all it takes is a character with enough power to exploit superman's weaknesses + sufficient speed to carry out said attacks before superman can stop them.

Originally posted by Galan007
all it takes is a character with enough power to exploit superman's weaknesses + sufficient speed to carry out said attacks before superman can stop them. nope. you're missing one more thing.

You need:

1. power to exploit superman's weakness

2. speed to use said power before superman can counteract

3. predisposition to use such a tactic

I know of no character that can fulfill all 3.

All you need is a non jobbing Martian Manhunter

Surfer not only have the speed and the power, but can know what type of energy can affect him with his more than valuable Cosmic Awarness

Originally posted by Starscream M
nope. you're missing one more thing.

You need:

1. power to exploit superman's weakness

2. speed to use said power before superman can counteract

3. predisposition to use such a tactic

I know of no character that can fulfill all 3. With no PIS, (and assuming said beings weren't fighting like retards), almost every herald-level-character could fulfill all 3.

Originally posted by TheKahn
So why doesn't the Silver Surfer take Superman down 10/10 in a fight?

because he's still vulnerable to a punch in the jaw. and is a worse tactician.

unless you mean with weakness exploitation, which in that case, yes, surfer should win every time.

I'd say Superman's solar reserve is somewhat harder to mess with than, say, Banner's gamma radiation too. People who control solar power can't just yank it out of him or anything.

Originally posted by Q99
I'd say Superman's solar reserve is somewhat harder to mess with than, say, Banner's gamma radiation too. People who control solar power can't just yank it out of him or anything.
Didn't Doctor Light do something on that level? Triumph too.
Also this is kind of off topic but does anyone know what issue it was where a vampire (I think its actually Dracula) bites Superman in the neck but immediately burst into flames because Superman is a living solar battery?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Didn't Doctor Light do something on that level? Triumph too.
Also this is kind of off topic but does anyone know what issue it was where a vampire (I think its actually Dracula) bites Superman in the neck but immediately burst into flames because Superman is a living solar battery?

Superman 180.

Also, Triumph is the exception, not the rule. After Infinite Crisis, Superman lived powerless for a year after having the yellow sun energy driven from his body.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Didn't Doctor Light do something on that level? Triumph too.
Also this is kind of off topic but does anyone know what issue it was where a vampire (I think its actually Dracula) bites Superman in the neck but immediately burst into flames because Superman is a living solar battery?

I think Doctor Light only yanked out his heat vision (or rather, Conner's). I don't think he's ever yanked out a kryptonian's solar reserve.

Triumph... well, not in the JLA story with the genies at least, there they fought physically. That's the only time I've read him so I can't speak for the other story with him.

Superman has overcame his weakness one more then one occasion. With that said, I don't see why people just jump to conclusion thinking Superman will lose to anyone who can exploit his weakness. Many also seem to forget that not all characters gun for your weakness and continue to apply it. Yes, it would make sense, but history for all comic character shows that they are that much of smocks.

Relying only on weakness exploitation, one would have to be a sufficiently powerful Herald character, IMO. The reason why some people give nods to Surfer, Thor, and CM over Superman isn't simply because of their ability to weakness exploit Superman; the fact that they can do that in addition to their other abilities which are on par or nearly so to Superman's own (ie. speed, strength, durability, etc).

Besides the fact that Superman is steadily getting to the point where his weaknesses are no longer detrimental to the point of being fatal as they once were, it's going to take more than only relying on plain kryptonite, magic, or red sun/deprivation of yellow sun, to beat him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Superman 180.

Also, Triumph is the exception, not the rule. After Infinite Crisis, Superman lived powerless for a year after having the yellow sun energy driven from his body.
Thanks.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Relying only on weakness exploitation, one would have to be a sufficiently powerful Herald character, IMO. The reason why some people give nods to Surfer, Thor, and CM over Superman isn't simply because of their ability to weakness exploit Superman; the fact that they can do that in addition to their other abilities which are on par or nearly so to Superman's own (ie. speed, strength, durability, etc).

Besides the fact that Superman is steadily getting to the point where his weaknesses are no longer detrimental to the point of being fatal as they once were, it's going to take more than only relying on plain kryptonite, magic, or red sun/deprivation of yellow sun, to beat him.
Yep, him surviving a nuke while surrounded by kryptonite pretty much downgrades kryptonite from ultimate weakness to serious potentially life-threatening allergy.

Originally posted by Starscream M
nope. you're missing one more thing.

You need:

1. power to exploit superman's weakness

2. speed to use said power before superman can counteract

3. predisposition to use such a tactic

I know of no character that can fulfill all 3.


Assuming Superman is just standing there doing nothing.



I think an amalgam of Captain Marvel (DC), Silver Surfer and Classic Dr. Strange can defeat Superman.

Originally posted by shokosugi
Assuming Superman is just standing there doing nothing.



I think an amalgam of Captain Marvel (DC), Silver Surfer and Classic Dr. Strange can defeat Superman.

Any one of them can beat him on their own without weakness exploitation, IMO.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Any one of them can beat him on their own without weakness exploitation, IMO.

No.

Originally posted by shokosugi
No.

Not even 1 out of 10 times? I never said they could get a majority, but yeah, any of them could beat him.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Not even 1 out of 10 times? I never said they could get a majority, but yeah, any of them could beat him.
Fanboys require a being to be a good two tiers above theirs to admit even one win.

Originally posted by TheKahn
In numerous fights involving Superman and characters such as Silver Surfer, Captain Marvel, Thor, and others one major issue keeps coming up: can these characters exploit Superman's weaknesses in a fight? Many people say yes, while many Superman fans say a definitive no.

So the point of this thread is to get views on what level of magical firepower or energy manipulation does a character need to have to be able to win consistently against Superman with only those abilities.

Any thoughts?

They can but it's doubtful they could do it fast enough or that it would work fast enough. Thor and CM surely won't be able and it ends in a normal fight. Surfer might but it's still doubful it will happen fast enough.

Given a little prep time, however, should be enough to give SS and Thor a vast majority 9/10. CM maybe 7/10.

Captain Marvel has gone against Superman knowing who he'd be facing several times, and the result is still generally the same- stalemate. He's not really one who can do a lot with prep.

Magic allows CM and WW to fight him to a draw (as they've done many times), but being hand to hand fighters there's not a lot to do to boost their odds other than sucker punching him (or getting more artifacts or outside aid). Their magic is their normal attacks.


You need mages more to gain additional advantage.


---

Hm, I wonder if Circe has ever fought Clark. She can use her magic to amp herself up to Wonder Woman strength levels, or for a wide variety of other spells. She might be able to with prep.

Originally posted by Q99
Captain Marvel has gone against Superman knowing who he'd be facing several times, and the result is still generally the same- stalemate. He's not really one who can do a lot with prep.

Magic allows CM and WW to fight him to a draw (as they've done many times), but being hand to hand fighters there's not a lot to do to boost their odds other than sucker punching him (or getting more artifacts or outside aid).


You need mages more to gain additional advantage.

CM is Supermans equal, even without the magic weakness. The weakness doesn't play an big role in their brawls, that's why it still is a stalemate. However, CM has grown, he was the Wizard of the rock of eternity for some time. In a prep scenario i could see him luring Supes into the rock or using artifacts or his lightining more effectively. Though as said, he can't do as much as a prepped Thor or SS could do.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i never said high end manipulators couldn't affect superman.

Your probably right.

I am just attacking you, to rile you up for our match.131fist

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Fanboys require a being to be a good two tiers above theirs to admit even one win.

superman beats all 3

Martian Manhunter...there, I did it again...

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Thanks.

Yep, him surviving a nuke while surrounded by kryptonite pretty much downgrades kryptonite from ultimate weakness to serious potentially life-threatening allergy. Sure, if you ignore how k-nite was portrayed in countdown number 3. if you pick and choose. It depends on the writer, obviously. The point is it's still a hampering weakness but one he will overcome to live to fight another day.

Originally posted by id369
Your probably right.

I am just attacking you, to rile you up for our match.131fist

try harder.