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vs.

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Starkiller gone Sith goes toe to toe against Kain from Defiance.

Fight takes place in the hangar on Hoth.

Is the power of the dark side strong with Starkiller on this fight or will Kain have the first ever taste of Sith blood?

Damn you Starkiller. I wouldn't mind Kain killing his ass... if he can.

He can't

Fu-

One time when I want Kain to win, he doesn't.

For the record . . . Starkiller was NOT a Sith Lord! He was, what was known as a 'Hand' - a well trained Force using assassin like Mara and Jerec. Study Star Wars before calling someone Sith. Starkiller (aka Galen Marek FYI) affiliation was Sith, but never a Sith Lord.

Whats the difference between the Darth version and the one we often see in VS?

Dunno, but the Darth version of Galen Marek is a gay cop-out regardless of any differences.

considering galen's considerable talents, nothing
as much as i dont like this - starkiller wins - there is very little kain can do..

oh and darth translucent - starkiller does become a sith lord in the non-canon continuation of the game (star wars TFU - the ultimate sith edition)

Although if Kain mists can he really do anything? Ive not seen Jedi manipulate weather before, certainly not marek.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Although if Kain mists can he really do anything? Ive not seen Jedi manipulate weather before, certainly not marek.

Jedi frequently bend light, even some of the lesser ones, which is a step more powerful than bending mist if you ask me. If you want to reach for the extreme though, An'ya Kuro has manipulated particles and the Exile proved able to filter gaseous poison.

Unfortunately Starkiller does not! The Emperor wanted to replace him because he was so badly injured. He was just used as a Hand. So I guess we should call Mara 'Darth Mara' then.

He wanted to replace vader because he was so badly injured but that doesnt make him a hand

Dark Jedi are frequently confused with Sith

So I assume Starkiller has not performed any feats against particles? if not then Kain could use mist form to manouver himself quickly behind the dark jedi or w/e he is and then behead him or Tk him.

I am not even sure Starkiller has bent light

Replace Vader my ass.

I'm fairly certain Starkiller could disrupt mist form with a single Force Push. Plus precog would deal with any plans of getting behind him for sneak attack.

Yeah, all he has to do is disperse the mist enough that it's outside of Kain's ability to control and Kain dies.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Replace Vader my ass.

He had the potentials

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm fairly certain Starkiller could disrupt mist form with a single Force Push. Plus precog would deal with any plans of getting behind him for sneak attack.

Show me this precog?

Precognition is an innate Jedi feat. Even a youngling has it.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Show me this precog?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force

Look under Force Abilities. But really, its how a jedi can react to things even when moving so fast. It may be how Luke reacted to those lazers in ANH and how he blew up the Death Star with his eyes closed. And yeah, every jedi can do it.

Kain wins via wrinkly lip kiss and/or soul steal.

Every time a Jedi react to something, they generally use precognition, almost depend on it. We have in the movie seen even younglings react to laser with their eyes covered.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Unfortunately Starkiller does not! The Emperor wanted to replace him because he was so badly injured. He was just used as a Hand. So I guess we should call Mara 'Darth Mara' then.
you obviously havent played the ultimate sith edition, because marek is actually called 'darth starkiller' and lord 'starkiller multiple' times

Well, the whole story of Starkiller is hard-pressed to fit within the Star Wars canon anyway...

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
He had the potentials
No one can replace the most classic character in all of Star Wars. No one! uhuh

Originally posted by LLLLLink
Well, the whole story of Starkiller is hard-pressed to fit within the Star Wars canon anyway...

Does not make the canon in it any less canon

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
No one can replace the most classic character in all of Star Wars. No one! uhuh

True. Darth Vader is eternal

Since when did Starkiller ever become a Hand?

Mara, Shira Brie, Ardan Lyn, etc...were hands that had exceptional force abilities that allowed them to communicate with the emporer wherever they were in the galaxy

In the non-canon version galen becomes the new dark Lord replacing vader.....

anyway galen wins uber easily

He should take it, but only because Kain would have no way of getting the jump on him. The common Jedi would prove a challenge against Kain. Starkiller is not common.

Starkiller's greatest advantage would be his ability to sense Kain's whereabout and fight him on his own terms. Kain has not shown durability to stand against a lightsaber. Starkiller in turn does not have much durability, but unlike Kain does not need it.

This is all based on the term that they do not start within line of sight of eachother and that Starkiller knows who he is up against. If Starkiller get the jump on Kain, he should take it. Face to face, not as likely.

yeh, im not a huge fan of star killer myself, and not to bring up old threads, but still believe kyle katarn could beat him, but seriously look at the facts.....

The force allows galen to sense kain as QA pointed out, and he kinda has the advantage as far as that goes. he would suprise kain out of nowhere and.....bye bye kain

still don't think Galen should get as much hype as he does tho

Starkiller is hyped, agreed, but also undervalued at times like most Star Wars characters in a versus against non-Force users. As agreed, Galen's ability to sense Kain and his precognition will serve him well against his opponent, but this is entirely under the term that they do not start within line of sight. Kain has moves Galen has not proven able to protect himself against (Some Jedi has, and it could be theorized Galen could, but there is no proof of this). While Kain's telekinesis can not be compared to Galen's, it is still adequate to get the job done.

All equations taken in consideration, I'd say 8/10 Starkiller.

agreed...dont you hate it when star wars characters get like no respect when it comes to vs in video game world? it saddens me

What are your thoughts on the upcomeing TFU 2?

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
agreed...dont you hate it when star wars characters get like no respect when it comes to vs in video game world? it saddens me

What are your thoughts on the upcomeing TFU 2?

Kain can relate

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
agreed...dont you hate it when star wars characters get like no respect when it comes to vs in video game world? it saddens me

What are your thoughts on the upcomeing TFU 2?

It does not bother me as much as the "X does not originate in Star Wars = The Force useless against X" argument.

I have only seen the trailer for TFU2 and not actually read anything, but it certainly holds potentials if the trailer is a sample of what is to come. Judging by it though, I just hope the creators know what they are getting themselves into and that they do not shame the Force in some manner (Not that I have any reason to suspect that they will)

of a truth. Im curious in their direction with the force. Galen just seems to come out of nowhere and now is the all time strongest? please, the game was awesome and fun, but it was eye candy.

Also agreed. Just because someone isn't from the star wars universe doesn't mean they aren't susceptible to the force....i.e. the Ssi-Ruuk

Kain via blood shower

what is blood shower per se?

Causes death of everyone near Kain by draining all their blood from them at once. Its an area instant kill spell in blood omen 1.

Although with Starkillers speed and use of powerful force abilities he could prob kill Kain fast enough before Kain can do it, its not from memoy a slow cast but when your opponent just has to move his hand in a gesture if that then its going to be difficult to cast.

kain would have to fool Starkiller through illusions/invsibility if hes got it and mist form.

Jedi see through illusions at a regular basis though, as well as invisibility.

yeah, and i don't know how the blood drain thing works exactly but jedi regularly use the force for protective barriers and the like

Magic, so I doubt they have any protection that can possibly help them against it if Kain did get it off.

I imagine Fay would be able to protect herself from it, but if I have grasped the function properly, only a few could fully protect themselves from it. Darth Sion, Fay, Darth Nihilus and An'ya to mention four potentials.

Blood Shower is the primary reason Starkiller needs to make the first move.

Lol, BT can't make up his mind whether Blood Shower is a spell or Kain can TK blood cells.. Hm. Inconsistant arguments ftl.

Doesn't matter in this fight. Galen has shown no resistance towards its concept

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Lol, BT can't make up his mind whether Blood Shower is a spell or Kain can TK blood cells.. Hm. Inconsistant arguments ftl.

errr excuse me? you seem to be getting confused. Theres a difference between Kain using Tk to drain blood from singular targets, usually for food but when thought outside the box for more offensive attacks. AND a spell that affects all those in the area....

Kain has drained blood with TK?

Thats what he does in the video in my bio.

Which video? And if he uses TK, the amount of Jedi able to protect themselves increase

PLz7T1Y_yFQ&feature=player_embedded

And thats only if he attempts the Tk version, if he uses magic then I doubt they have any possible resistant as afaik magic does not exist in Star wars except maybe ancient Sith magic?

Also what is the logic behind them defending themselves from it? technically the force is exactly Tk, its a special kind of control seperate.

Where does it state that Kain uses telekinesis in that video?

There are variations of magic in Star Wars, although all fall into the category of the Force through one relation or the other. It's hard to say if there is, or isn't magic, because it ends up with the requirement to clarify the definition of the word "Magic"

Manipulating the Force include among other things Telekinesis. The various invisible moves that Jedi and Sith preform in the movies and games are to a large extent Telekinesis and nothing more. This is all clarified in the "Jedi Vs. Sith" essential. In Episode III, Obi-Wan prove able to actually block Telekinesis. Fay during the Clone Wars prove able to with thought alone shield organs with it. When Anakin first practise Force Choke, he is specified to use it.

What logic, you ask. What logic is there in lifting an object by just looking at it? One illogical action can't be expected to be explained with logic when used as protection against another illogical action. Telekinesis is what it is. I am no Jedi, I can not describe how someone block Telekinesis, because I do not know how. I just know they do.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
What logic, you ask. What logic is there in lifting an object by just looking at it? One illogical action can't be expected to be explained with logic when used as protection against another illogical action. Telekinesis is what it is. I am no Jedi, I can not describe how someone block Telekinesis, because I do not know how. I just know they do.

Logic is in the eye of the logician

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.

One cannot use one's logic to explain actions driven by others' logic.

Some awesome quotes from my iPhone!

None very helpful though, I'm afraid. My point is that Burning Thought asked what logic there was in what they are capable of doing. It's a paranormal activity, it can't be explained with logic. We know they do it, but we don't know how they do it. It's one invisible, intangible force blocking another.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Where does it state that Kain uses telekinesis in that video?

There are variations of magic in Star Wars, although all fall into the category of the Force through one relation or the other. It's hard to say if there is, or isn't magic, because it ends up with the requirement to clarify the definition of the word "Magic"

Manipulating the Force include among other things Telekinesis. The various invisible moves that Jedi and Sith preform in the movies and games are to a large extent Telekinesis and nothing more. This is all clarified in the "Jedi Vs. Sith" essential. In Episode III, Obi-Wan prove able to actually block Telekinesis. Fay during the Clone Wars prove able to with thought alone shield organs with it. When Anakin first practise Force Choke, he is specified to use it.

What logic, you ask. What logic is there in lifting an object by just looking at it? One illogical action can't be expected to be explained with logic when used as protection against another illogical action. Telekinesis is what it is. I am no Jedi, I can not describe how someone block Telekinesis, because I do not know how. I just know they do.

it does not "state" it, is it relevent? I assumed it was Tk due to the fact his arm and hand movements as well as position are exactly the same as when hes using TK.

When I asked about logic, I meant how could a force created through physical means at a point be stopped once its already happend? its not like the force whrre you can lift one object, or push against another force user like in Star wars movies.

It is surprisingly relevant. Jedi react to Telekinesis, counter, block and override it. I don't know how, but the case if it is or isn't Telekinesis makes a big difference.

It's a legitimate question, but the truth is, and here comes Fay again: Fay reacted and protected her organs from invasive Telekinesis by Ventress. You, much like myself, can ask time and time again how it is possible to react and protect against an instant, invisible and intangible force, but no matter how many times we ask a question revolving it, there will still not be an answer.

You need to get your trails of thought that Star Wars Telekinesis is all lift, pull, push and crush out of your head. It is so much more than our common fictional point and grab Telekinesis. I can not give you the answer you want. Only the fact that it is possible.

ok....so that video was interesting....i noticed kain only could use "TK" to suck blood from victims that were chained to a wall, all the others he had to grab and/or bite them.

Galen doesn't seem like the guy to just stand there and let kain do that.

1. If galen is allowed his lightsaber then this is a no contest, but to make things interesting lets just say kain can defend against it

2. Galen has a plethora of force abilities that would wear kain down fairly easy.

3. Galen would conceal his presence until he had the jump on kain, because kain is no pushover, and would use the force to bind/subdue/hold/ or move him just in the right place before launching his attack.

Galen has far to strong TK powers to be pushed around

Also interesting Q'A u mentioning Fay, not alot of ppl know about her. Very strong connection with the force, so i doubt galen could use those techniques, maybe though.

and lets not forget about vergere making herself small to fight diseases, illness, etc...

i still don't think this should have gone 3 pages

I do not really think Burning Thought argued the fact that Starkiller could handily defeat Kain under the right circumstances. Him and I ended up just pointing at details. The only reason the thread has lasted is because of minor detail bickering.

Yeah, Fay is even lesser known than Q'Anilia. Yet, I often use Fay as an example when I end up in a discussion revolving how dangerous a Jedi/Sith can potentially be. Fay, Dark Woman, Darth Sion, Darth Maul and Darth Nihilus are my favorite examples when stretching towards the undervalued aspects of Star Wars and the Force.

But no, Fay is much more potent than Galen, so what she has done is not within compare for him. Galen is both young and inexperienced, while Fay has centuries to fall back on, not taking in consideration her abnormal level of connection to the Force.


Sadly however, Vergere is not a character I know by heart. I'm more into TOR and the Clone War, not so much into later dates. I only know her through her masters and apprentices and then only barely.

ahh i see. Well i love to see another true star wars fan that genuinely knows their stuff on here. do you read of have you read any of the Clone commando books?

and imo the Dark Woman is one tough chick, and maul is overlooked sadly, much like Quinlan Vos

Afraid I will have to disappoint you. I have not spent a lot of time with Star Wars books. I have, however, spent a good amount of time with the various graphical novels and will be getting the TFU graphical novel next time I come by a place that has it. I like not having to try imagine scenery, lazy as it may sound, and concequentally enjoy graphic novels.

My favorite Darth Maul moment is him killing a Telepath by letting him inside his head. There is that, and him walking through Force Lightning.
And I do enjoy the occasional Quinlan Vos appearances as well, although I'm a little against him, not appreciating his whiny nature much (Until he got to his senses again)

hah yeh he is a little whiny, and a confusing character. you won't be disappointed with TFU graphic novel, i enjoyed it very much. you should check out some novels though, opens a world of star wars awesomeness. and also to get a real understanding of galen, if you want to, i suggest reading the novel. the novel is more accurate than the game, as far as canon goes

The TFU graphic novel is a waste of time. Don't waste you money on it.

of come on why why is that?

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
of come on why why is that? its art and story is horrible. it sometimes makes me think I'm reading and 90s comic.

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
hah yeh he is a little whiny, and a confusing character. you won't be disappointed with TFU graphic novel, i enjoyed it very much. you should check out some novels though, opens a world of star wars awesomeness. and also to get a real understanding of galen, if you want to, i suggest reading the novel. the novel is more accurate than the game, as far as canon goes

Yeah, from my understanding it's Novel > Graphic Novel > Game in terms of canon. I hate the "more" and "less" canon stuff that is going about in the Star Wars universe.

Originally posted by Phanteros
The TFU graphic novel is a waste of time. Don't waste you money on it.

Depends on why you want it, doesn't it?

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
It is surprisingly relevant. Jedi react to Telekinesis, counter, block and override it. I don't know how, but the case if it is or isn't Telekinesis makes a big difference.

It's a legitimate question, but the truth is, and here comes Fay again: Fay reacted and protected her organs from invasive Telekinesis by Ventress. You, much like myself, can ask time and time again how it is possible to react and protect against an instant, invisible and intangible force, but no matter how many times we ask a question revolving it, there will still not be an answer.

You need to get your trails of thought that Star Wars Telekinesis is all lift, pull, push and crush out of your head. It is so much more than our common fictional point and grab Telekinesis. I can not give you the answer you want. Only the fact that it is possible.

Well it does not change the ability for Kain, if Kain manips blood/liquids with TK, then you think they could somehow block it? yet if its not TK, then they may not have any defene.

But do we know if Starkiller can do this or has any way of stopping it? surely a guy who has no previous knowledge or training in this defence could not suddenly defend himself?

It doesn't matter, Galen has precog, he's going to hit first.

precog does not help you hit first, it just means you know when the attack is coming, Assuming their starting off facng eachother and not miles away or out of sight, precog is going to useless in the first moments. Not that precog is perfect ofc, sometimes a Jedi/Sith simply cannot survive an assault, like with most of Kains attacks. Also how do you explain how all those Jedi were killed when Sideous initiated order 66? they didnt suddenly precog them being attacked and if they did it did not help them at all, Yoda is the only one who seemed to show any use of it and he is a master. Kain has far more ways to trick, decieve and attack Starkiller in comparison to clones, most in which he could not defend against even if he did precog it.

No, it means you know what's going to happen before it does. So he knows where Kain's gonna be, and Kain eats some srsly painful force powers.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well it does not change the ability for Kain, if Kain manips blood/liquids with TK, then you think they could somehow block it? yet if its not TK, then they may not have any defene.

But do we know if Starkiller can do this or has any way of stopping it? surely a guy who has no previous knowledge or training in this defence could not suddenly defend himself?

That is my point. You are basically defending my point against me. If it is not Telekinesis, it is a whole different matter and not as likely protect-able against. But this is Starkiller we are talking about. The guy may be a prodigy and well taught, but such moves are out of his league. He is a little child with a big gun and is not even old enough to know how to use it properly.

But to answer your initial question, yes, chances are "they" could. By "they", I mean Fay, Dark Lady and Darth Sion. Potentially Darth Nihilus, but not thanks to the Force but rather because his state of being is not flesh and blood.


Starkiller is screwed. I have not argued that. Should Kain get a grasp of him with his blood draining ability, Starkiller is going down. He is not good enough. I have not argued or opposed that outcome, but truth be told I do not think it would even come to that. Starkiller is faster than Kain, among other things.

But with the risk of sounding like a broken record: It is a matter of circumstances, but Starkiller all things considered could and should win 7-8/10.

Q do you have an answer for this? is there any bearing on how clear and fast as well as informative precog is? obviously with the following examples among other Jedi who have died in Star wars, surely Precog is very flawed and does not give a clear image nanosecond by nanosecond of what is going to happen?

Originally posted by Burning thought
Also how do you explain how all those Jedi were killed when Sideous initiated order 66? they didnt suddenly precog them being attacked and if they did it did not help them at all, Yoda is the only one who seemed to show any use of it and he is a master. Kain has far more ways to trick, decieve and attack Starkiller in comparison to clones, most in which he could not defend against even if he did precog it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_side_of_the_Force

Starkiller wins with about 1 Force Push.

I will start by saying this: Order 66 shamed Jedi potentials. Numerous of the Jedi that fell in the movie should have made it out of sheer talent. The Jedi Sidious struck down should not any one of them have gone down without a fight. He struck down the first two before the third had a chance to react. Mace Windu has proven time and time again that he is both fast and talented enough to intercept Sidious when he first attacked them.

Take Ki-Adi-Mundi for example. No Star Wars fan at their senses would approve of him being taken down by a handful of Stormtroopers he knew were hostile. Plo Koon is another, and while his death is up to debate, he too has merits to fall back on. Aayla Secura? Give me a break. Caught of guard? Sure. Shamed? Definitely.


Moving on to your question. Precognition is not flawed. It is a neutral Force and is not flawed or perfected as a force of power. It all comes down to the individual Jedi, but even Younglings master it. Like with every other type of vision though, precognition can be clouded. It can be clouded by trust, love, ignorance, anger and a number of other equations. Like with a lot of things, it is circumstantial.

The best explanation to what happened during Order 66 is that the Jedi Order trusted the Stormtroopers blindly, lowering their guard, lowering their senses. After all, in the mind of the Jedi only one thing existed revolving the Stormtroopers: They were bred to obey the Jedi Order.

Lets look at a few things in this fight:

1:32 would have killed a lot of Jedi during Order 66, simply for the sake of drama. Now do not get me wrong. I enjoyed Episode III and Order 66 was awesome, but it at the same time disappointed and I frown at a good amount of things in it.

1:40, if that part of the video is not sign of precognition at its finest, I am not sure what is. Immediately after, you also get a sample of Telekinesis against Telekinesis.

All-in-all, this video gives a pretty fancy idea of how peaked precognition can be, as does many Jedi battles. You need to know, though, that Jedi precognition is subconscious, passive. It is more a reflex than an actual ability, and with inappropriate distraction, reflexes can fail you.

pSwy412nttI

Originally posted by No End N Site
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_side_of_the_Force

Starkiller wins with about 1 Force Push.

Not very constructive.

And it would take more than a single Force Push.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Not very constructive. ???

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
And it would take more than a single Force Push. I didn't really mean Force Push, my bad. I really meant he would win the fight with a single use of The Force. Last I checked, the guy pulled down a Star Destroyer ship. Is there somthin' I'm missin'?

It took an enormous amount of concentration for that to work, not something he would want to even try with Kain teleporting and misting as soon as the fight started. He doesnt want to knock himself unconcious my using that much force jsut to blow a huge hole in the ground....

Originally posted by No End N Site
???

I didn't really mean Force Push, my bad. I really meant he would win the fight with a single use of The Force. Last I checked, the guy pulled down a Star Destroyer ship. Is there somthin' I'm missin'?

Your post was not very constructive.

If any one move will win it for Starkiller it is either Saber Throw from behind or Force Crush, since he cubed an AT/ST. His Star Destroyer feat is irrelevant in this fight, completely and utterly irrelevant.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Your post was not very constructive. Yea, I understood that you felt that way. Just confused as to why it was not "constructive" in your opinion.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
If any one move will win it for Starkiller it is either Saber Throw from behind or Force Crush, since he cubed an AT/ST. His Star Destroyer feat is irrelevant in this fight, completely and utterly irrelevant. My point is, if he has the power and focus to do that, all the while evading fire from a TIE Fighter squadron, I don't see why Kain wouldn't be thrown around like a simple toy. Guess I'm wrong.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
True. Darth Vader is eternal
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master. 131

Originally posted by No End N Site
Yea, I understood that you felt that way. Just confused as to why it was not "constructive" in your opinion.

My point is, if he has the power and focus to do that, all the while evading fire from a TIE Fighter squadron, I don't see why Kain wouldn't be thrown around like a simple toy. Guess I'm wrong.

You posted a link and a vague argument. I do not find that very constructive, especially since Starkiller never was our common personification of the Dark side of the Force.

Kain would be thrown like a toy by Jedi far lesser than Starkiller. There are Younglings/Padawans that would throw him around like a rag-doll. He is not very heavy.
The thing with Starkiller and people arguing in his favor, something that bothers me, is his Star Destroyer feat. People look at Starkiller and thinks "He brought down a Star Destroyer, he is a God among ants" without looking at the whole picture. Many ignore the fact that he cubed an AT/ST, despite the fact that in a versus, that feat is so much more useful.

In a versus, I much rather use his Farsight, his ability to dismantling his Lightsaber, his repulse ability, his Force Lightning and various other abilities. The fact that he pulled a Star Destroyer down from the sky shine so greatly among his feats, that people tend to forget what really makes a Jedi win a battle.
Many that debate for Starkiller and others, would not make good Jedi, because all they think about is his awesome raw power.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master. 131

Only a master of evil, Prime

Originally posted by Q'Anilia

Many that debate for Starkiller and others, would not make good Jedi, because all they think about is his awesome raw power.


"sigh" well that stinks, that was my career choice

Originally posted by Burning thought
"sigh" well that stinks, that was my career choice If you are all for raw Force, may I recommend the Dark side? The cookie is a lie, but they do have muscle.

phew, thanks, my master always warned me of the darkside but I guess ill give it a try.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
You posted a link and a vague argument. I do not find that very constructive, especially since Starkiller never was our common personification of the Dark side of the Force. I didn't feel the need to go into a deep argument because everyone has said what I was going to say. I felt like a couldn't just post "Starkiller wins", so I just posted that.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Kain would be thrown like a toy by Jedi far lesser than Starkiller. There are Younglings/Padawans that would throw him around like a rag-doll. He is not very heavy.
The thing with Starkiller and people arguing in his favor, something that bothers me, is his Star Destroyer feat. People look at Starkiller and thinks "He brought down a Star Destroyer, he is a God among ants" without looking at the whole picture. Many ignore the fact that he cubed an AT/ST, despite the fact that in a versus, that feat is so much more useful.


In a versus, I much rather use his Farsight, his ability to dismantling his Lightsaber, his repulse ability, his Force Lightning and various other abilities. The fact that he pulled a Star Destroyer down from the sky shine so greatly among his feats, that people tend to forget what really makes a Jedi win a battle.
Many that debate for Starkiller and others, would not make good Jedi, because all they think about is his awesome raw power.
I see exactly what you mean and in the end it's just another way, BETTER way, for him to win the battle.

The better way to win is to not give Kain a chance to make it = Saber throw/Force crush.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Only a master of evil, Prime
Aaah, nooooo! I can't win! If I strike you down, you shall become more powerful than I can possibly imagine!

Or something.

What good is a saber throw or force crush, Kain could quite easily escape such things through mist or teleportation? theoretically even by going ethereal.

Not if he is cut in half or the size of a cube

Well I would like to see him do it so I can measure how quickly he does it in comparison to how quick Kain can become mist, not that it would make a difference. Kains physical form is technically dead, it being in two piecies does not logically make a difference.

Kain is technically living dead, but that's again just bickering over details. The fact of the matter is that Kain has been physically defeated before and there is no saying he could not be again.

Galen's advantage lies in fighting Kain on his terms rather than Kain's. Sneaking around, attacking from behind or from the shadows and moves of the sort. But that is just when it comes to the throw of the saber, which is relatively fast if taking in consideration Kain's shown reaction time.
Force Crush is instant and with Kain lacking precognition or any way of properly tracking Starkiller, there is really no means of fighting him for Kain, which consequentially ends up with the fight being on Starkiller's terms.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
But no, Fay is much more potent than Galen, so what she has done is not within compare for him. Galen is both young and inexperienced, while Fay has centuries to fall back on, not taking in consideration her abnormal level of connection to the Force.
You are joking... Right??? Starkiller laid Vader on his ass and then managed to put up a fight against the Emperor. Fay has no chance against Galen. None at all.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Kain is technically living dead, but that's again just bickering over details. The fact of the matter is that Kain has been physically defeated before and there is no saying he could not be again.

Galen's advantage lies in fighting Kain on his terms rather than Kain's. Sneaking around, attacking from behind or from the shadows and moves of the sort. But that is just when it comes to the throw of the saber, which is relatively fast if taking in consideration Kain's shown reaction time.
Force Crush is instant and with Kain lacking precognition or any way of properly tracking Starkiller, there is really no means of fighting him for Kain, which consequentially ends up with the fight being on Starkiller's terms.

Kain has not been phyiscally defeated since having the sole reason he "should" be alive has been torn out, technically destroying his brain, an army, a leg would be irrelvent and unless the molecules of those piecies are completly destroyed through being atomised, kain should logically speaking be able to reform from this whole again.

Force crush instant? from the films I always believed it took a few moments or seconds for a force user to call upon enough strength to crush something, in the attack of clones (episode 2?) It seemed to take even master Yoda some control to lift that beam from falling on Obi and Anakin and it took some force of will to break rubble and piecies that were being sent at him. although "instant" is a strange word to use since in fiction most things take some time.

Originally posted by ares834
You are joking... Right??? Starkiller laid Vader on his ass and then managed to put up a fight against the Emperor

So?

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
So?
Fay got mortally wounded by Asajj... She stands no chance. Not to mention Marek's feats are completley out of her class.

Originally posted by ares834
Fay got mortally wounded by Asajj... She stands no chance. Not to mention Marek's feats are completley out of her class.

Right, because the entire scenario was as simple as that. Ventress wounded Fay and that was it, outclassed and butchered. No further factions to take in consideration, no aspects you are missing. You have the battle all laid out. Ventress was so much better than Fay, Fay never stood a chance.

What was it you said? Oh yeah, "You are joking... Right???"

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Right, because the entire scenario was as simple as that. Ventress wounded Fay and that was it, outclassed and butchered. No further factions to take in consideration, no aspects you are missing. You have the battle all laid out. Ventress was so much better than Fay, Fay never stood a chance.

What was it you said? Oh yeah, "You are joking... Right???"
Did I ever say Ventress outclassed her? No. She was still mortally wounded none the less. Marek has her completley outclassed in force ability and saber skills. No way she can take him.

Originally posted by ares834
Did I ever say Ventress outclassed her? No. She was still mortally wounded none the less. Marek has her completley outclassed in force ability and saber skills. No way she can take him.

Finally. I didn't think you'd catch on so quickly. Now let me ask you this in return to your question: Did I ever say Fay would defeat Starkiller?

*GASP!* Are you saying Fay is not as good as Starkiller at saber battle? Whatever gave you that idea? It can not possibly be the fact that Fay to our knowledge has never, ever wielded a lightsaber?

As for their Force potency, I wouldn't mind hearing you elaborating why Marek is so much superior Fay.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Finally. I didn't think you'd catch on so quickly. Now let me ask you this in return to your question: Did I ever say Fay would defeat Starkiller?
A valid point. But you claim she is more potent which means more powerful.


Yep. Which is why I said it.

HE can redirect a SD and block Sidious's lightning with out a saber! For as long as Yoda mind you.

Originally posted by ares834
A valid point. But you claim she is more potent which means more powerful.


Yep. Which is why I said it.

HE can redirect a SD and block Sidious's lightning with out a saber! For as long as Yoda mind you.

1. Potent does not equal powerful. There is a significant difference.

2. Cute

3. I will go ahead and act shocked you brought up his redirection of the Star Destroyer. So blocking Force Lightning makes him prominent in the Force, eh? I guess that makes Darth Maul God, who walks straight through Force Lightning.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia

3. I will go ahead and act shocked you brought up his redirection of the Star Destroyer. So blocking Force Lightning makes him prominent in the Force, eh? I guess that makes Darth Maul God, who walks straight through Force Lightning.
Darth Maul did not block it. He walked through it. Not to mention it was simply the lightning of a Witch. Marek blocked the most powerful Sith Lord's lightning. Sidious's lightning can fry people instantly and the pain was compared to stars igninting... It's not even close. So far the only other character in they mythos who could block such lightning was Yoda the "most powerful foe darkness had ever known".

I wrote an elaborate post yesterday but my computer crashed, so I will just post the brief version here:

- Absorbing Force Lightning is part of the general Force absorb ability, an ability shown to reoccur often enough to not be rare in Star Wars. Obi-Wan Kenobi has absorbed Force Lightning, and in Obi-Wan's own words, Fay was the most powerful of the group on Queyta, the group which included Obi-Wan.

And to my memory, Obi-Wan felt insignificant in their presence because they were all so much more powerful. Legends, while he was a mere master.

Kain wtfassrapes this forum...

In a sense

Fay ftw. I'm not an in-depth Star Wars fan, but I did come across her article whilst browsing Wookiepedia in an attempt to generate a homebrew rule set for lightsaber combat styles for a d20 SW game I was looking into setting up.

*stops and re-reads above* Wow...so much nerdtrocity in one sitting.

You were looking for lightsaber combat ideas and ended up on Fay? Fail

See Form "Zero."

Yeah, not entirely unexpected she would pop up there

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
I wrote an elaborate post yesterday but my computer crashed, so I will just post the brief version here:

- Absorbing Force Lightning is part of the general Force absorb ability, an ability shown to reoccur often enough to not be rare in Star Wars. Obi-Wan Kenobi has absorbed Force Lightning, and in Obi-Wan's own words, Fay was the most powerful of the group on Queyta, the group which included Obi-Wan.

This may be the case but its faulty to say that the two instances can be compared. Kenobi did one thing which is a much smaller application than Galen's. While it's relatively easy to block FL with a lightsaber, doing so with your bare hands has been canonally stated to be 'practically impossible' to do and requiring vast skill. Not to mention he was doing so to the lightning of 'most powerful Sith ever' Darth Sidious, the guy whose Lightning almost overpowered "I can punch through steel" Mace Windu who was using an easier version of the technique.



And Obi-Wan has never demonstrated anything special with the Force that makes Fay that great. Starkiller towers over her in both skill and power.

Originally posted by Shutter Control
Kain wtfgetsassraped in this forum...

Fixed.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Starkiller towers over her in both skill and power.

What are you basing this on? The fact that he has grander feats, I presume.

Originally posted by Burning thought
What good is a saber throw or force crush, Kain could quite easily escape such things through mist or teleportation? theoretically even by going ethereal.

Isn't that mist crap a no-limit fallacy?

But yeah, Kain gets the shit beat out of his ass.

Originally posted by iChaos
Isn't that mist crap a no-limit fallacy?

But yeah, Kain gets the shit beat out of his ass.

In that sentence it is not.

If Starkiller wins its based on speed alone, which is his strongest asset and perhaps one of Kains weakest. If he did not have precog or the speed then he could be easily killed and his attacks evaded, I would still like to see his force crush and saber throws myself though.

asvKQOJZXcs

Can we all just agree that Starkiller is a lame overpowered protagonist like Fool Anakin and call it a day?

while i don't agree with the Fool anakin part, i do agree that Starkiller is a hurt to star wars. he is a very cool game character and has cool powers, its just overdone and doesn't flow with the rest of star wars.

that being said, he still wins the fight

based on that vid his saber throw does not look too fast on throwing, it looks quicker on its way back and could probably be predicted and avoided before Starkiller throws although the force crush would not be so simple, it looks very quick.

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
while i don't agree with the Fool anakin part, i do agree that Starkiller is a hurt to star wars. he is a very cool game character and has cool powers, its just overdone and doesn't flow with the rest of star wars.

that being said, he still wins the fight
Fair enough, but how was Anakin not a fool?

i thought you were referring to his character being a fool. his actions were foolish if thats what your getting at

Originally posted by Burning thought
based on that vid his saber throw does not look too fast on throwing, it looks quicker on its way back and could probably be predicted and avoided before Starkiller throws although the force crush would not be so simple, it looks very quick.

The slow-motion throw?

Well as I said "based on the video" and thats the only saber throw I saw.

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
i thought you were referring to his character being a fool. his actions were foolish if thats what your getting at
No, I was referring to his character.

Love won't save you Padme. Only mah new powahz can do that!

It's over Anakin! I have the highground!
You underestimate my powah!

Nooooo!!!! I just killed the only woman I love but I'm not going to blame it on the guy who told me that going to the darkside can save her.


Sidious: Just as planned.

Maybe you all should take a look at Darth Caedus - he was able to look at potential different futures. He was a Sith Lord. Starkiller was nowhere near the strength of him. As for Anakin, if he killed Obi-Wan he would have become what Luke is in the EU. Sidious is the strongest Sith in history yes, but if Caedus survived that might be a different story.

that is of course you opinion

It was stated by GL that Anakin would have become what Luke is like in FOTJ.

I suppose you're right... Too bad his foolishness prevented that from happening though.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
It was stated by GL that Anakin would have become what Luke is like in FOTJ.
ANakin would be greater. Heck its debatable that Luke even has the same potential as him.

He has the blood, for all that's worth.

How did Darth Caedus come into all this?

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
What are you basing this on? The fact that he has grander feats, I presume.

Grander? Better, in all categories.

So Fay turning Ventress unconscious and giving her life energy to boost Obi-Wan vastly are just amateur moves, then. Her ability to survive after virtually having had her chest melted is something that Starkiller could do anytime. Fay being able to protect internal organs from Force Crush is definitely proof that Starkiller is vastly more skillful with the Force than her, because he could do that anytime, right?

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
So Fay turning Ventress unconscious and giving her life energy to boost Obi-Wan vastly are just amateur moves, then. Her ability to survive after virtually having had her chest melted is something that Starkiller could do anytime. Fay being able to protect internal organs from Force Crush is definitely proof that Starkiller is vastly more skillful with the Force than her, because he could do that anytime, right?

oooohhhh burn.....While fay never used a lightsaber, being able to transfer life enrgy is something ive only seen the force itself do. i.e. when luke was almost dead on dathomir and the rocks and trees and grass started giving their life to save his, that was the will of the force. For fay to do the same thing would mean she is awesomely strong and has an intricate knowledge of the force that starkiller only hopes to have

Starkiller is more destructive, he has higher firepower, but that doesn't necessarily make him more skilled or even more powerful in my eyes. There is more to the Force than lifting objects and destroying things.

agreed, look at te adepts with the white current, they can do some amazing things with the force

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Fay being able to protect internal organs from Force Crush is definitely proof that Starkiller is vastly more skillful with the Force than her, because he could do that anytime, right?
I would assume so... Afterall he did defeat Vader and Vader was a master of force crush, not to mention he threw off Vader's choke.

Originally posted by ares834
I would assume so... Afterall he did defeat Vader and Vader was a master of force crush, not to mention he threw off Vader's choke.


haha no not quite. shrugging off a force choke, no real big deal. We are talking about Fay and her ability to keep her internal organs going AFTER she was stabbed through the chest with a lightsaber. She used the force to save her body from being crushed completely. Vader never did that in the fight vs Galen, and we don't see Galen doing any such feat. she was able to keep herself going, probably could have survived had she not given her life force to Obi-wan

Originally posted by Maester_yoda
haha no not quite. shrugging off a force choke, no real big deal.
We are talking about Vader here not Ventress. His ability to use the force trumps Ventress's. Shrugging of his force choke is a far more impressive feat than stoping Ventress from crushing one's organs.

She defended against it before being stabbed. Also protecting one self from a force attack from Ventress just really isn't that impressive, I mean padawan Anakin did it.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/2712/faysdeath.jpg

Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Darth Vader pull a Force Choke on Starkiller? Ventress pulled a Force Crush on Fay's heart and Fay protected herself against it with thought alone. Did not even make hand gestures or other fancy stuff.

I want to believe there is a difference between slowly having your throat air-pipe grasped and suffocate and having your heart directly touched in an attempt to compress it into scraps.

Force Crush > Force Choke if you ask me, Ventress or not. Darth Vader has showed Force Crush in the past, so the fact that he choked Starkiller indicate either that he did not really try to kill him, or that he was on the lazy/underestimating side. Either way, for as long as Darth Vader used choke, he was not exerting full power = Saying it was Darth Vader and not some weak Ventress is irrelevant, since Darth Vader obviously did not give his all to kill Starkiller.

And again, Force Choke =/= Force Crush.

Fay would have survived the killing strike by Ventress, but she took her chances with Obi-Wan instead. Fay implied not even wanting to survive, almost being eager to die once she knew that the mission was completed. So she gave Obi-Wan a Force boost and Obi-Wan, her remaining life energy. She literally gave Obi-Wan more of the Force, she gave him power and actually her life (Literally). How many Jedi has shown such Force potency? I know there is Darth Plagueis and the Skywalker rumor, but we do not really know much about him.

I have not read all there is about Star Wars, but Fay is the only case I know of where one individual transfer its Force over to another. Fay is also the only individual I know that has protected her internal organs from Force Crush.

She is one of few, if not the only one with human durability that would survive a fatal attack with two lightsabers through her chest thanks to her vast connection to the Force, actually using the Force to stay alive at a time that would kill virtually any Jedi. I do not even think there are any implications that Yoda, Darth Sidious or even Luke Skywalker would survive that.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia

Correct me if I am wrong, but did not Darth Vader pull a Force Choke on Starkiller? Ventress pulled a Force Crush on Fay's heart and Fay protected herself against it with thought alone. Did not even make hand gestures or other fancy stuff.
I reread the comic. Fay did not even block the attack she simply knocked her out before Asajj could crush her heart


Galen survived such a blow as well. ANd he was then thrust out into space...

Seems to be a less effective force heal to me. :/



Doubtful. All three of them have been shown to have a far greater connection to the force. Really if one wants to see amazing feats of durabiltiy one should look at Vader and Caedus.

Sion

Originally posted by Rapidash
Sion
Ah yes... I forgot about that abomination.

...thats a bit harsh she only made a suggestion...

Originally posted by Burning thought
...thats a bit harsh she only made a suggestion...
Nah. I was agreeing with her. I just hate Sion and Nihilus... So I called him (Sion) an abomination.

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, its not amateur but its not that special either. Count Dooku for one was able to use the force to individually stretch Ventress' blood vessals. Thats impressive. And for the knocking unconcious thing Starkiller was able to wave his hand and send people to sleep.



Well he did get stabbed in the chest, smacked the shit out of, thrown through a reinforced spaceship window and survived. Aaand apparantly he can survive imploding. Heck, Anakin survived having two limbs cut off and set on fire. Sion survived having every bone broken and having what seems to be ash for skin, willed on by pure hatred.

Besides, Sith aren't very well versed in the healing arts which its seems this and the last one are connected too, just like jedi aren't skilled in offence. So whereas Starkiller takes out a hundred droids in a single Force Wave Fay chucks some rocks.



Being able to block inside of yourself isn't necessarily a big thing. And Starkiller pulling off a 'near impossible' technique of blocking FLightning against one to the most powerful beings ever whose Lightning has in the past disintergrated entire beings instantaneously is a better feat of power and skill.



As far as I know that has been replicated by Darth Bane, Darth Addenddu(sp?), Darth Sidious, Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya, Darth Malak, The Jedi Exile and every single sith in Kotor 2. Luke may have done it as well.



Or perhaps Starkiller was blunting his attacks?



Truthfully, Caedus has insane durability. Having his arm cut off doesn't even phase him.

As far as I know that has been replicated by Darth Bane, Darth Addenddu(sp?), Darth Sidious, Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya, Darth Malak, The Jedi Exile and every single sith in Kotor 2. Luke may have done it as well.


heck no. i think your misunderstanding what was said. Transfering life enrgy via the force to save another life, not force heal, not using the force to keep someone alive, but an actual transfer of force life. never happened before. nice try though

Darth Bane steals the life force of 3 people when he's dying of poison in his first book. Seriously, look it up.

Its fairly well documented actually, or at least the Darkside vrsion is- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Life

He also does it in the third book stealing like twenty peoples life force.

When Starkiller put his target(s) to sleep, I assume they were Force users? Otherwise it is just silly to put it in compare. Ventress may not have been a top leaguer, but she had a pretty solid mentality and she if nothing else was a Force user. Say what you want about Ventress, but mentally she is vastly superior any non-Force user.

Or have I misunderstood something?

Originally posted by Nephthys
As far as I know that has been replicated by Darth Bane, Darth Addenddu(sp?), Darth Sidious, Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya, Darth Malak, The Jedi Exile and every single sith in Kotor 2. Luke may have done it as well.

Truth be told, I find at least four of those more powerful than Starkiller. Darth Nihilus and Darth Sidious obviously without question. But that is beside the point. Fay did not drain Force energy, she did not use Force heal, she literally gave Obi-Wan Kenobi more of the Force. She boosted his abilities and made him stronger than he had ever before been. She literally lifted his abilities, which is something I am not sure any one of the listed above have done.

Sure, it could be interpreted as healing, because she did heal Obi-Wan, but I find a significant difference between healing and empowering. Obi-Wan after having stated how Fay was so powerful said that for a moment, he felt just how powerful she was. He then continued with a jump he otherwise would not have pulled through and made it out of there.

My point is: Fay is no Sith. All the people you listed for your interpretation of Fay's move are Sith (Save the Jedi Exile, but she to my understanding went Grey/Dark in canon). Did you not yourself say that Sith are offensive while Jedi are not? So the fact that the Sith has a selfish equivalent, that however require a target and the energy given is based on that targets state, does not really make a difference in this case. Comparing Sith and Jedi in power is anything but easy, particularly when dealing with someone as close to a pacifist as Fay was.


When it comes to Darth Sion, yes, he is a very interesting case and particularly when we discuss durability, but lets face facts here: All Darth Sion has is his durability. His durability, strength and willpower. He may be an excellent thug, a handy goon to have at your side, but that is thanks to his one superior technique.

Anakin lost his limbs, true. Anakin was set on fire, true, but considering that a lightsaber does not make you bleed and that humans has survived being set on fire before, it is up to debate if Anakin surviving that really was anything special, or impressive (Given the healing technology at Star Wars disposal)

Bottom line: You can go on about how special various Jedi and Sith are in their unique ways, like Dooku's blood vessel move (Awesome move for the record) or Sion being able to managing keeping his body intact, but in the end they are just rare feats accomplished by rare people. When it comes down to it, what they have done is not something Starkiller has done and we are left with Fay again.


When it comes to Starkiller surviving his injuries, did he do it singlehandedly or did he get treated? Because Obi-Wan stated and Fay implied that Fay would have survived solely thanks to her vast connection to the Force alone and she had two lightsabers shoved through her upper torso (That's where the lungs and heart is, excluding the possibly pierced spine)

Originally posted by Nephthys
Or perhaps Starkiller was blunting his attacks?

We have seen Darth Vader crush a head with so little as a grasp of his hand. In sheer anger did he compress that chamber in RotS. He has flipped heavy vehicles and flicked steel doors open. Care to tell me what you have to support your claim that Starkiller was blunting his attack? Because while Force Choke is a signature move by Darth Vader, it is also Darth Vader holding back.

We have seen Darth Vader not hold back, and when he has not, he has not been Force Choking.

Caedus was tortured by the Yuuzhan Vong and Vergere so pain became his friend. Jaina lopped off his arm and he still fought her. Caedus fought Jaina despite the fact he had a lightsaber wound through the chest. Starkiller aka Galen Marek was tortured by Vader during his training. So Starkiller (Galen Marek) would be able to take a beating.

To blunt Vader's attack, Galen hit him with TK (canon btw).