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Do you think the post-ROTJ EU might benefit from another resurrection?

Personally, I don't believe it would, what i would like to see, is a story of our dear ol' Palpatine as a younger man.

personally, i think it would be sad.

Originally posted by truejedi
personally, i think it would be sad.
Sad? In what way?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Do you think the post-ROTJ EU might benefit from another resurrection?

It didn't benefit from the first one.

in the fact that they bring the same villian back for a THIRD go-round, instead of thinking up a believable villian.

Originally posted by truejedi
in the fact that they bring the same villian back for a THIRD go-round, instead of thinking up a believable villian.
The series has had its fair share of original villains. A good majority of them are putrid, however.

Dark Empire is a cosmic disaster (though I do kinda like the idea that Palpatine should return -- in some fashion -- perhaps a Force-less clone? Perhaps an attempt by dark side adepts is made that is foiled by Luke Skywalker, a la Jedi Academy?

Anyways, it's canon, and I'm petitioning for Matthew Stover to novelize DE, bring it up to date, so we can scrap the damn comic.

Make the shit less stinky, as it were.

i'd like to see the Rule of Two reconstructed and an even better sith than Sidious to rise up eventually, but doubt that'll happen.

darthbanelives
i'd like to see the Rule of Two reconstructed and an even better sith than Sidious to rise up eventually, but doubt that'll happen.

WTF is wrong with you. The idea of the Sith carrying on post-RotJ is even more obnoxious than the idea of Palpatine carrying on.

I just happen to like the sith didn't realize that was a crime....if you think the sith are going to be gone i'm almost certain you're wrong...they'll always survive somehow until star wars is done. And star wars doesn't really look like its getting ready to stop to me...

Yes, it is criminal. Read the KMC rules.

The Sith were completely eradicated because the death of Sidious destroyed the Sith Order which balanced the Force. Have you even watched the movies?

Which is why, thankfully, every post-RotJ Sith are considered... pretenders.

It's all part of my master scheme.

I don't like the fact that Sidious came back as being even more powerful. I think Anakin should have destroyed him in his most poweful state.

Originally posted by mattatom
Personally, I don't believe it would, what i would like to see, is a story of our dear ol' Palpatine as a younger man.

I am with you on there.

I believe this would have an entirely negative effect. I wouldn't mind exploring a young Palpatine in his training, though I imagine the novel would just fellate him to no end, but bringing him back AGAIN post-ROTJ would just make me sad.

That is always a possibility Rex, but as long as we don't get Drew writing them, it should be fine

Indeed, a good majority of fans possess disdain for Dark Empire and Palpatine's resurgence. The two most noted reasons being that the story is perceived as unoriginal and in direct contradiction to the prophecy of the Chosen One.

However, the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia states that joining the Sith and ultimately being an instrument of destruction (for both the overinflated Jedi Order and Palpatine's eventual deposition) is what lead to the balance. Accordingly, the book appears to posit that it wasn't merely the death of Palpatine that brought balance, although it does claim the imbalance was initiated by him.

As far as unoriginality is concerned; as I have stated earlier, there have been plenty of villains aside from Palpatine in the Star Wars mythos--none of which, perhaps aside from the Yuuzhan Vong, have matched Sidious as a threat. Villain recurrence has worked in other properties, and I don't see why it can't necessarily function in this capacity as well. Although admittedly, it does carry the risk of dilluting the menace of Darth Sidious. Villain decay is a terrible trap.

I rather see the origins of palpatine and how he became the twisted monster he is.

Funny how Palpatine sometimes look completely harmless and gives the impression that you can have a beer with him.

Sith is just a name. Krayt represents all that the sith stand for except for the rule of two, its idiotic for him to want the validation of dead sith.

Considering that the Sith as a group don't give a crap about rules and part of their ideology is in fact transcending rules through strength and power, its always struck me as odd that a Sith has to be 'officially' given membership to qualify. If I was a sith and some whiny ghost came up to me and said 'You're not a Sith, stop calling yourself that', I'd be like 'Shut up, *****. Try and stop me,' and pimpslap him.

Besides, according to Kreia being a Sith simply means you follow their teachings. That seems right to me.

Originally posted by BoratBorat
I rather see the origins of palpatine and how he became the twisted monster he is.

Funny how Palpatine sometimes look completely harmless and gives the impression that you can have a beer with him.
Somehow, I don't see Palpatine being much different in his youth.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Considering that the Sith as a group don't give a crap about rules and part of their ideology is in fact transcending rules through strength and power, its always struck me as odd that a Sith has to be 'officially' given membership to qualify. If I was a sith and some whiny ghost came up to me and said 'You're not a Sith, stop calling yourself that', I'd be like 'Shut up, *****. Try and stop me,' and pimpslap him.

Besides, according to Kreia being a Sith simply means you follow their teachings. That seems right to me.

This is quite possibly the gayest post on Sith ideology I've ever seen. But if it makes you feel better, a lot of people at TFN share this belief.

I'll happily explain to you why you're wrong: essential to the design of the Sith is that they are the most dangerous and most exclusive cult in existence. They share certain similarities with the Jedi Order; namely that one has to obey the Code and be recognized by established Masters and peers to be considered a Jedi. The Sith are no different, which is why Darths Andeddu, Bane, and Nihilus (among others) considered Krayt and company to be nothing but pretenders and jokes.

That is why Vader's Secret Apprentice is not considered by any source to be an actual Sith; same for Asajj Ventress; same for Lumiya. The reason? Because Bane's Rule of Two is essentially law when it comes to the Sith.

And I would also argue that the most successful Sith never break the rules: Bane and Sidious, for example, followed their chosen ideology til the day each of them died.

But even if I were to agree that the Sith should be relegated to the status of your typical Myspace and Facebook club (which is ridiculous), the fact remains that in order to bring balance to the Force, the Sith -- the real Sith -- must be destroyed.

They're dead. And they should stay dead.

You big flatterer you.



Where is this stated. Because a certain Sith Lord disagrees with you. Sith Lord> You.

Bane, Nihilus, Andeddu, Count Dooku (since he never formally trained Ventress as a Sith due to tha rules) Darth Sidious and , the granddaddy of them all, George Lucas (and me) > one insignificant Sith Lord.

I win. But what else is new?

Actually I thought that was becuase he had betrayed the basic sith principle of 'survival of da fittist' by creating an order based on co-operation and helping each other to be stronger as a whole (which is what Kaan did as well) thus creating something that closer resembled a bastardised version of the Jedi Order.



As I recall Bane didn't actually get inducted into the Sith either. He just started to call himself 'Darth' and restarted his new Sith order after the Thought bomb incident. So he's one to talk.



Yeah, becuase he wasn't batshit insane.



Actually it was becuase she hadn't proven herself. Plus he was going to have Anakin as his real apprentice as shown in the ROTS novel.



Where?



Lies.



Well if you think about it Kreia taught Revan who taught Bane who created Sidious' order so you're technically disagreeing with the Big Cheese himself.



I watched Avatar. It was Epic.


(Don't tell Sexy. I hate agreeing with him)

Bane also happens to be the sithari who was destined to do... well what he did, make them stronger. Krayt is a big NOBODY.

Not really that relevant but what'evs.

The story should have ended at the demise of Sidious then. A continuing saga with lesser and lesser antagonists is not a healthy one.

Abeloth seems interesting. Hope they don't screw her up though *cough*Caedus*cough*.

I'm sure they'll find some way to ruin her.

I have a small problem with this. Which sith are you talking about exactly? The original ancient sith? Bane's sith? Or sith in general following a code? Technically, if what you're saying is correct, Freedon Nadd, Darth Ruin, and the new "sith" are pretenders.

This is an argument of semantics. There is no metaphysical law that decides who is Sith who isn't. Say you have an extremely powerful Dark Jedi far into the future after Post-ROTJ. Say he decides to call himself a Sith and kick the Jedi shit in? Who's to say he isn't a Sith? In fact, who cares? Its a rather subjective thing when one thinks about it. The Sith are at the most an ideal, not some specific rigid order that only those of a certain criteria can be a member of.

The Sith themselves argue about it and in the end it just comes down to who kicks more ass in the Force.

Originally posted by Autokrat
This is an argument of semantics. There is no metaphysical law that decides who is Sith who isn't. Say you have an extremely powerful Dark Jedi far into the future after Post-ROTJ. Say he decides to call himself a Sith and kick the Jedi shit in? Who's to say he isn't a Sith? In fact, who cares? Its a rather subjective thing when one thinks about it. The Sith are at the most an ideal, not some specific rigid order that only those of a certain criteria can be a member of.

The Sith themselves argue about it and in the end it just comes down to who kicks more ass in the Force.

That was kind of my point. On the other side of the spectrum, as Gideon stated, the sith have always had rules and orders they must follow, in one way or the other. From what we know about the EU (aside from the 3 I mentioned), a sith is someone who follows a particular set of traditions, ideals, and rules, and/or is recognized as such by his peers.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
That was kind of my point. On the other side of the spectrum, as Gideon stated, the sith have always had rules and orders they must follow, in one way or the other. From what we know about the EU (aside from the 3 I mentioned), a sith is someone who follows a particular set of traditions, ideals, and rules, and/or is recognized as such by his peers.

I imagine this is what Lucas had in mind when he created them, but EU has in a way blurred the lines so often with Sith that it just turns into a jumbled mess.

Take these new True Sith, who the fvck are they? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith. These lost tribe guys get married and have children and yet they're still Sith, apparently. Then you have the One Sith, the Rule of Two, the Rule of the Strong. To top it all off, you have an actual Sith species.

Its all a big mess.

Originally posted by Autokrat
Take these new True Sith, who the fvck are they? Or the Lost Tribe of the Sith. These lost tribe guys get married and have children and yet they're still Sith, apparently. Then you have the One Sith, the Rule of Two, the Rule of the Strong. To top it all off, you have an actual Sith species.

Its all a big mess.

The True Sith are simple, although the concept is borderline retarded and the writer fo the new SW games is a moron. They're made up of one of the original ancient sith, and a bunch of newcomers. I'm assuming he molds the sith and recognizes ranks and all that jazz, so from Gideon's standpoint, they're legitimate, though stupid as a concept.

The Lost Tribe concept is probably almost as dumb as this new game. However, they ARE recognized by the ancient sith, which makes them lackeys, but sith nonetheless. Although i'm not really sure which canon source stated that the ancient sith allowed humans into their army.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Not really that relevant but what'evs. It is relevant. He is sorta like the chosen one for the sith. You're making it seem like he was just a force user who proclaimed himself a sith lord. It was fortold that he would remake the sith order. Sidious was the last of his order, so with the death of Sidious meant the death of the sith order. Darth Krayt did not follow the sith code, and therefore was not considered a true sith by the other sith lords.

Krayt can call himself a sith lord all he wants, but he is not the one who created the order. I can sit here and say I'm a mormon, but does that make it so if I don't practice it and follow it.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
It is relevant. He is sorta like the chosen one for the sith. You're making it seem like he was just a force user who proclaimed himself a sith lord. It was fortold that he would remake the sith order. Sidious was the last of his order, so with the death of Sidious meant the death of the sith order. Darth Krayt did not follow the sith code, and therefore was not considered a true sith by the other sith lords.

Krayt can call himself a sith lord all he wants, but he is not the one who created the order. I can sit here and say I'm a mormon, but does that make it so if I don't practice it and follow it.

One COULD argue that because Krayt learned under one of the dark jedi that created the sith order, he is more deserving of his title than anyone before him.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
One COULD argue that because Krayt learned under one of the dark jedi that created the sith order, he is more deserving of his title than anyone before him. I guess you can make an arguement. But when Bane remade the order, he set a code to follow by. He did away with a lot of things they use to practice back then, so when Krayt did not follow the new sith code created by the Sithari, he was considered a wannabe, and thus not a true sith. Krayt was following the ancient ways, which were done away with.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I guess you can make an arguement. But when Bane remade the order, he set a code to follow by. He did away with a lot of things they use to practice back then, so when Krayt did not follow the new sith code created by the Sithari, he was considered a wannabe, and thus not a true sith. Krayt was following the ancient ways, which were done away with.

Yea but if Bane is allowed to remake the sith order, why isn't Krayt? I mean yes I do think he's a pretender but from the other side, it's a very compelling argument. He was trained by the spirit of the creators of the sith order, therefore he has the right to proclaim himself a sith.

Oh, joy.

First, the idea that Krayt can be considered a Sith because he received some teachings at the hands of Xoxaan (sp?) is ridiculous. Count Dooku taught Asajj Ventress, but every single source EVAR says that she is not a Sith.

If you want to consider Krayt a Sith, you might as well lump Mara Jade, Blackhole, Starkiller, Vergere, Lumiya, Sarcev Quest, Jeng Droga, and others, since they were trained by the most powerful and successful Sith in galactic history.

...But they're not; no one -- not Andeddu, not Karness Muur, not Bane, not Nihilus, not a single one recognizes Krayt as a legitimate member of the Sith Order.

George Lucas says in the Secret History of Star Wars that the Sith only number two. This is in accordance with Bane's law -- and as far as Bane is concerned, he was a Sith Lord under Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness. The only difference is the title of Darth, which Bane assumed.

One (Darth) is a title, the other (is a structured way of life).

The Lost Tribe of the Sith? I suppose One could argue that they are real Sith, specifically educated and trained by leigitmate Lords of the Sith millennia prior.

George Lucas says that the Force was balanced by destroying the Sith; Sidious and Vader did not train successors. The Sith Order, the real Sith Order, is extinct.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, joy.

First, the idea that Krayt can be considered a Sith because he received some teachings at the hands of Xoxaan (sp?) is ridiculous. Count Dooku taught Asajj Ventress, but every single source EVAR says that she is not a Sith.
I think you misunderstand my position. I'm not arguing canon. I'm simply stating that you and Veneficus have good points and that you might be mistaken if you take into account what I said. Why is the idea of Krayt being a sith because he trained under the tutelage of Xoxaan ridiculous? If anything, it should be a valid argument.


THen what makes one a sith exactly? As far as I know, none of those were given sith teachings, as opposed to dark side knowledge. Lumiya might have come the closest because of the knowledge she possessed but she was never formerly instructed in the ways of the sith, nor was she recognized by anybody.


Ok...? Nihilus didn't say anything, Muur didn't call him a pretender, Bane and Nihilus were both part of a different sith tradition insomuch that they would call the ancient sith heretics. I mean, you might as well call Nadd a pretender since he studied under the spirit of Sadow.


...


Just wondering but did Lucas specify which Sith Order? I mean I'm not arguing because I would agree, but I would think Lucas meant Bane's sith order.

So then what's your position on the Ancients? Marka Ragnos had a lot of different disciples at once, as did Revan. It seems like Krayt is a lot closer to the original structure of the Brotherhood or the other ancients' (think Malak here) systems- systems that are more "legitimately Sith" than Bane's.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's the peak of gheynezz to have the Sith continue after Sidious. But I rationalize it differently: the chain was unbroken up to him. Ragnos led directly to Kun led directly to the Brotherhood led directly to Bane. And since Bane is the only sentience to obey the Rule of Two, his pseudonym of "Sidious" goes here too. Lumiya doesn't count as a link any more than Mara Jade does.

(Mostly, your way is open to semantic wrangling, but if we define "Sithness" differently we can dodge the issue.)

You know, if they ever come out with all the comic books in one giant, book, i'm going to have to buy them and read them so i can have some idea what ya'll haz been talking about all these years. Then i can finally learn who darth krayt is.

I'm still not sure what Marka Ragnos did. Or if Jolee was in love with the Sunrider that took out Kun? Everything not-Revan/Bane is pretty much a blur. I know about Kun from KotOR.

yah, same here. if it wasn't a novel or a video game, i don't know about it.

The ancient Sith existed prior to Darth Bane's Rule of Two; though it is interesting to note that Palpatine muses in the Rise of Darth Vader that a massive Sith Order was a corruption of the intent of the original Sith; they understood that power could not be shared amongst hundreds or thousands or millions.



WTF are you talking about? Bane wasn't the only sentient being to obey the Rule of Two nor is Sidious his pseudonym.

To be a Sith Lord is to be a legitimate member of a previously established order, not a self-proclaimed dark side magus. Lumiya is a prime example of a fake Sith Lord, a pretender, a joke.

Darth Bane mastered the essence transfer. He annexed Zannah's body and thus extended his lifespan. What's to stop him from repeating such an action an arbitrarily large number of times? Given that Bane is necessarily more knowledgeable in the Force than any given apprentice, it is not impossible that Bane has not only been the founder of the Sith Order following the dissolution of the Brotherhood, but that he is in fact the only Sith to have existed since then.

The ramifications of this possibility are astounding. Rather than a generations-long chain of master/apprentice contest we instead have a single individual, massively powerful in the dark side, given an eternity to perfect techniques, guide strategies and manipulate even the wisest mortals. Bane is the Sith Order. Bane is Sidious.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Darth Bane mastered the essence transfer. He annexed Zannah's body and thus extended his lifespan. What's to stop him from repeating such an action an arbitrarily large number of times? Given that Bane is necessarily more knowledgeable in the Force than any given apprentice, it is not impossible that Bane has not only been the founder of the Sith Order following the dissolution of the Brotherhood, but that he is in fact the only Sith to have existed since then.

The ramifications of this possibility are astounding. Rather than a generations-long chain of master/apprentice contest we instead have a single individual, massively powerful in the dark side, given an eternity to perfect techniques, guide strategies and manipulate even the wisest mortals. Bane is the Sith Order. Bane is Sidious.

Where were you when Drew told everyone Zhanna won?

Still doesn't make sense. Krayt structured his organization based on the ancient sith, where you have one dark lord and many other sith, but he's not a legitimate sith? You need to do a better job explaining what a "sith" is then, Gideon. Otherwise all of these definitions don't make much sense.

I think its one of those issues where because GL said it, its canon. GL said there are no more Sith (or something along those lines), ergo there are no more Sith. Thats one of the issues with Star Wars; often the quotes given by sourcebooks and LFL don't correlate to the source material. Either that or they are simply ridiculous.

Originally posted by Autokrat
I think its one of those issues where because GL said it, its canon. GL said there are no more Sith (or something along those lines), ergo there are no more Sith. Thats one of the issues with Star Wars; often the quotes given by sourcebooks and LFL don't correlate to the source material. Either that or they are simply ridiculous.

See I have no problem with accepting canon. However, I thought we were openly debating what exactly makes one a "sith", not taking into account GL's statements.

yeah, Zannah won. Bane is dead. One little whiny darkjedi knows the secret to eternal life. But he is the only one. (be interesting if we ever find out what HE does with it.

Darth Krayt is A'Sharad Hett a Jedi from the Clone Wars the Reigning sith in the time of Cade Skywalker he wears YV crab armour and sucks.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Darth Bane mastered the essence transfer. He annexed Zannah's body and thus extended his lifespan. What's to stop him from repeating such an action an arbitrarily large number of times? Given that Bane is necessarily more knowledgeable in the Force than any given apprentice, it is not impossible that Bane has not only been the founder of the Sith Order following the dissolution of the Brotherhood, but that he is in fact the only Sith to have existed since then.

The ramifications of this possibility are astounding. Rather than a generations-long chain of master/apprentice contest we instead have a single individual, massively powerful in the dark side, given an eternity to perfect techniques, guide strategies and manipulate even the wisest mortals. Bane is the Sith Order. Bane is Sidious.

Bane made an attempt to possess Zannah, but failed.

Way to assume facts not in evidence, jackass.



It makes a ton of sense, and it's fairly obvious. I'll explain as clearly as I can.



The only legitimate self-proclaimed Sith Lords are the ones who started the religion way back when. Darth Krayt may have based the structure of his so-called "One Sith" on the ancient Sith, but that does not mean that he was a legitimate member of the ancient Sith's order, which is the ultimate point.

Krayt did not have a legitimate Sith Master who was a member of a legitimate Order. The last legitimate Order was Bane's; Vader and Sidious both died without training a Sith apprentice. The chain was broken, the Sith are extinct, and every single agent of the dark side after the fact is nothing but a pretender.

Your mistake is assuming that Krayt basing his so-called Sith off the ancient Sith = being a direct, legitimate heir to the ancient Sith themselves. This is not the case.

Originally posted by Gideon
Bane made an attempt to possess Zannah, but failed.

Way to assume facts not in evidence, jackass.
Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, since it's what happened.





I understand your quote before writing this, but here's the part I'm focusing on, bolded just for your pleasure.


My issue is that if you study sith doctrine and techniques under another sith, then you are yourself a sith. Otherwise Freedon Nadd is not a sith, nor is Darth Ruin, Darth Revan, or Darth Malak. Krayt, specifically, studied under and was recognized by Xoxaan, who helped create the order. So if you really are saying that studying under another sith, whether a holocron, spirit, or actual person, is not sufficient enough to be called a "sith", then we have a problem with many characters classified as sith.


I think we keep going back and forth. While it's debatable whether a simulacrum in a holocron constitutes as a sith master, we know that Krayt ultimately learned from SOMETHING of the ancient sith who created the order, and based his organization in many ways on the ancient sith.



So what you're saying is, unless you're a legitimate heir, you're not a sith? Meaning if you study under a holocron or a spirit, it doesn't count? If that's the case, then obviously your definitions are accurate, and we would have to discount certain individuals in the SW universe who are erroneously being called "sith".

Originally posted by mattatom
Darth Krayt is A'Sharad Hett a Jedi from the Clone Wars the Reigning sith in the time of Cade Skywalker he wears YV crab armour and sucks.
An apt description.

From reading the Legacy comics, it was all that was worth mentioning.

Gideon, i'm pretty sure Red was kidding. we had a conversation about how absolutley mindfvcked we would all be if Bane WAS sidious, and you, especially.

As far as canon, Gideon is right because whatever GL says, it's canon. However, we're all having a difference in fundamentals in regards to anyone in the SW mythos being labeled a "sith".

Originally posted by mattatom
From reading the Legacy comics, it was all that was worth mentioning.

C'mon. Legacy wasn't all that bad. It had its moments, namely Darth Wyyrlok's (sp?) badassery.

Originally posted by truejedi
Gideon, i'm pretty sure Red was kidding. we had a conversation about how absolutley mindfvcked we would all be if Bane WAS sidious, and you, especially.
That sentiment is pretty silly irregardless of humor. Despite Sidious being a member of Bane's order, they don't share the same ideology and personality.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
That sentiment is pretty silly irregardless of humor.

you mean, regardless of humor, right? : )





*helps*

Originally posted by truejedi
*helps*

My god, you would be an excellent apprentice...

lol, you can never challenge nemesis until you have an apprentice of your own, you would risk the entire order of helpers, its true.

I actually like the Dark Empire series and thought it did Palpatine and Luke justice, they should leave it at how it ended though with Palpatine gone forever, except in the holocron.

As a fan of his character and his work I wouldn't mind having him return but maybe as a Forst Ghost to guide another Jedi to the Dark Side and the Return of the Empire.