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No BFR. Could Thor take down Juggernaut in this rematch of the titans?!

This is the classic unstoppable Juggernaut, not the jobbing weak pathetic Juggernaut of late.

This is v3 Odin-force Thor, the one that took down Bor.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/3/31499/793233-juggernaut_03_super.jpg vs http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/308/89657-181777-michael-turner_super.jpg

Considering Thor at classic level neallry beat kain in 60 secs. When he canceled out the enchantment i say odinforce shoves Juggs head up his on @$s hancock style

Originally posted by DarkOdin
Considering Thor at classic level neallry beat kain in 60 secs. When he canceled out the enchantment i say odinforce shoves Juggs head up his on @$s hancock style Jugs is invincible

Originally posted by Starscream M
Jugs is invincible

Thor says otherwise

Originally posted by DarkOdin
Thor says otherwise Thor never hurt juggs.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Thor never hurt juggs. I take it you never seen the battle where Thor negate juggs enchantment and beat juggs harder then Mike tyson fighting a 7 old school girl????

Originally posted by Starscream M
Thor never hurt juggs.

Thor once disconnected Juggs from Cytorrak and with that IIRC made him vulnable

Thor

Originally posted by DarkOdin
Considering Thor at classic level neallry beat kain in 60 secs. When he canceled out the enchantment i say odinforce shoves Juggs head up his on @$s hancock style

Originally posted by DarkOdin
I take it you never seen the battle where Thor negate juggs enchantment and beat juggs harder then Mike tyson fighting a 7 old school girl???? nope, i've never seen it because it never happened.

Thor wins this. He is juggernaut kryptonite. Canceling out Juggernaut durability shouldnt be hard for Thor with the odin power. Now if you take away the ability of thor reducing his invulnerability then Juggs wins this handily.

Originally posted by Starscream M
nope, i've never seen it because it never happened.

Yes it did happen. Thor canceled out Juggs durability and was CRUSHING him and then Juggernauts powers came back and thor had to bfr him to another planet (where juggernaut took it over also).

Originally posted by Starscream M
nope, i've never seen it because it never happened. Another shameless plug, but here's the fight everyone's talking about, Starscream M. From my Revamped Thor Respect Thread: Originally posted by OneDumbG0
=========
Juggernaut
=========

Thor vs Juggernaut again, from Thor #429:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsJuggernaut09429.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsJuggernaut10.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsJuggernaut11.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Thor%20Fights/ThorvsJuggernaut12.jpg

That was a pretty good 16 seconds.

Thor wins this, though a lot of people scream "PIS" about that Juggernaut fight.

Its sad that all of these people debate on forums against characters not knowing anything about them or using scans and not even knowing what actually happened in the comic.

Originally posted by carver9
Its sad that all of these people debate on forums against characters not knowing anything about them or using scans and not even knowing what actually happened in the comic.

I try to at least be generally knowledgeable about the characters being discussing in a thread before I put in my two cents. It's not that hard to even look through a respect thread for a quick refresher. There's also no shame in asking a question about a certain character if you're not 100% sure, either. Some people feel beyond that though and in turn, spout nothing but bullshit.

Personally, i think that highly magically amped attack, like one that killed Bor, will cancel/overpower Juggernaut invulnerablity etc. After all, there were precendents, like other avatars hurting and wounding him...

Not to mention the OF made Thor much more durable. Juggernaut would have a hard time putting Thor down for good.

bump

minus the odin-force though, seriously

I think it's safe to say that FF removal crap should be ignored. First and foremost, the FF isn't the source of his invulnerability.

out of curiosity, why do you think that?

Because it's never been the source of it. He's fought Thor without before and since and that was never the issue.

Not too mention just cancelling out his force-field would not put him down even if the major part of his durability was tied to it. His healing factor is greater than Hulks, and can't be exhausted. It might be because that writer didn't know of the healing factor and/or it wasn't touched on much, but those punches alone shouldn't/couldn't take him down due to his HF. He has had his power drained and still stood as a skeleton to fight his enemy.

Defalco wrote one of the most powerful Juggernauts, so I doubt it can be chalked up to ignorance, I think it was just lazy writing. Kind of like the days when writers would tie the source of his power to his helmet.

He also labeled Juggernaut a mutant in one of the Thor fights in the narration.

Should someone below Cyttorak be able to physically harm Juggernaut?

Juggernaut is already weak to mind attacks once his helmet is removed, seems to weaken him too much if his powers can be removed by magic by someone below Cyttorak

I think in my Marvel Universe I would make it this way

It was just lazy writing. Juggernaut has physically slugged it out with Thor without his FF in other instances and Thor has never come close to duplicating that same feat.

Juggernaut is over rated.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
It was just lazy writing. Juggernaut has physically slugged it out with Thor without his FF in other instances and Thor has never come close to duplicating that same feat. which actually lends credence to him wanting to finally end him after a already knowing his capabilities from experience, and the fact that he enslaved a planet has to add some sort of animosity

but about the field business, imo (and iirc this was addressed in the issue), thor negated mystical energy that was coming to juggernaut and he was left with what he had previously absorbed, but i assume the field takes a lot of magic to utilize so his previously absorbed energies couldn't erect it while cut off.

i'm pretty sure hat's what the writer was going for

the force field seemed to always be optional anyway, it wasn't an automatic power

Thor wins.

Juggs has taken a god blast full on and strugged it off, Thor is always sending Juggernaut away instead of knocking him out because hes not powerful enough to do that.

Odin Force Thor isn't beating without having to resort to trickery and that Force field negation is just dumb because even without hes still pretty nigh invulnerable.

thor wins

Thor didn't negate the FF he negated the enchantment . Heck when Juggs fought WWH the first tme he powers were reduced. So juggs still can be effect the same way. Hell Thor wouldn't have to use mjolnir to effect the enchament he could use the Odinpower and then beat Juggs head in via mjolnir.

Under DeFalco, Juggernaut's invulnerability came from his force field and rightfully so. Without it, his not invulnerable.

On his own, characters like Thor, Hulk, Superman and other high end beings can and have hurt him (You don't have to count Clark because I don't remember if it was in the actual crossover or the tie-ins).

I remember having this debate a while back and listing a number of showings where he was affected by physical damage without it. I can probably find that list again.

Cain's durability is not unlimited or whatever bullshit some members spout. He can be hurt, and once you reach high heralds, I'd heavily argue he will be.

I will say this, it's probably a power that most writers have forgotten about and there are contradictions (I can't get into detail because it's been a while since I did research on this topic. I'm going purely off of memory here). On the other hand, when was the last time Juggernaut was invulnerable to high herald level force? Merged Hulk, Onslaught, War Hulk, and World War Hulk are the last times I can recall Cain going up against higher end level forces.

In conclusion, I think Juggernaut's a ***** to hurt, and more durable than most beings under Trans, but once he faces forces like a pissed off high herald, his not invulnerable. His not falling down like a stack of cards or anything, but his going to have to rely on something else other than his durability to win him the fight.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Because it's never been the source of it. He's fought Thor without before and since and that was never the issue.

Originally posted by carver9
Its sad that all of these people debate on forums against characters not knowing anything about them or using scans and not even knowing what actually happened in the comic.

Most of the time if Cain has been hurt it has been through irregular circumstances.

Thor has never hurt Cain without the aid of magic.

Hulk has never hurt Cain unless he was using Celestial Technology.

Onslaught was weird and showed a number on inconsistencies with Cain and took some liberties with him, but hey every character has awkward moments. Thor ahs them, Superman has them why make them anymore than they need be.

And yes you may find random panels throughout Cain's history where he does says things like Ahh or OOmph all classic sounds of pain if you actually look at the effect these attacks have on him they are zero.

As for taking on High Heralds the guy has his showings why deny them. The guy has been stated many times to be a serious threat for any hero and Marvel wants him to be a serious threat to any hero. At least there was a time where this was so.

The one time Cain took on Thor without his force field (At least a healthy one although he had it up half way in their first fight) was during the 8th day thing where Jurgens had him significantly amped (Probably because his a writer that doesn't think Cain can go toe to toe with a pissed off Thor level character without his field). And even then, 8th day Juggernaut was not invulnerable and I'd argue he started feeling Thor's hits in the end.

Merged Hulk definitely affected Cain with his attacks. PAD I'd wager also thought Cain wasn't invulnerable to higher end forces (Which is why he had Cain dodge the one time Hulk throw a punch in the earlier encounter). World War Hulk also hurt him with a punch IIRC.

The biggest problem with the onslaught thing IIRC is that the Gem was supposed to be in space. Cain's probably most akward scene is when Beast depowers him by removing his helmet. I don't know what was up with that one.

I think somewhere down the line writers just attributed his invulnerability to his force field when he faced high heralds. Guess that made more sense. Shrug. I for one don't think his higher end durability was tied to his force field in his first fight with Hulk. I don't remember if he was completely invulnerable though.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The one time Cain took on Thor without his force field (At least a healthy one although he had it up half way in their first fight) was during the 8th day thing where Jurgens had him significantly amped (Probably because his a writer that doesn't think Cain can go toe to toe with a pissed off Thor level character without his field). And even then, 8th day Juggernaut was not invulnerable and I'd argue he started feeling Thor's hits in the end.

Merged Hulk definitely affected Cain with his attacks. PAD I'd wager also thought Cain wasn't invulnerable to higher end forces (Which is why he had Cain dodge the one time Hulk throw a punch in the earlier encounter). World War Hulk also hurt him with a punch IIRC.

The biggest problem with the onslaught thing IIRC is that the Gem was supposed to be in space. Cain's probably most akward scene is when Beast depowers him by removing his helmet. I don't know what was up with that one. In the 8th Day Saga Cain showed no signs of Thor's attacks having any effect on him.

And my account still stands Thor has never hurt Cain without having to effect Cain's enchantment.

Are you talking about Proff. Hulk? The one where he sucker punched Cain and took him to a knee and Cain was getting right back up showing no ill signs from the attack.

WWH Hulk only hurt Cain after he had just went through the portal and was still not at full power.

And I used Onslaught because he was a character you mentioned, but yes the Beast was also very awkward.

And there has been times Cain ahs faced High Heralds or Higher without resorting to his Forcefield so there hasn't always been a precedent for it. The main one that comes to mind is Nightmare who fought to a standstale without using his FF.

I did want to say something about Cain. I think Cain tends to be a victim of his humanity. The problem with the Juggernaut is he still views and interacts with the world like a human being. That's why there are times when Nightcrawler can throw a torch into his face and he'll scream in pain even though he wasn't effected by the attack at all. But in another issue deadpool can pour molten steel on him and Cain won't even register it.


Its why Cain will go to sleep and dream even though he doesn't need sleep at all. His mentality is human but it's when he starts acting like a conduit of raw magical energy that that grants him the power of an extra dimensional god that he goes to that upper level that makes him one of the baddest most powerful characters around.

As always I think the level of power, strength, and invulnerability Cain shows is directly proportional to how focused he is which strengthens his connection to Cyttorak and the Crimson Cosmos.

Originally posted by Newjak
I did want to say something about Cain. I think Cain tends to be a victim of his humanity. The problem with the Juggernaut is he still views and interacts with the world like a human being. That's why there are times when Nightcrawler can throw a torch into his face and he'll scream in pain even though he wasn't effected by the attack at all. But in another issue deadpool can pour molten steel on him and Cain won't even register it.


Its why Cain will go to sleep and dream even though he doesn't need sleep at all. His mentality is human but it's when he starts acting like a conduit of raw magical energy that that grants him the power of an extra dimensional god that he goes to that upper level that makes him one of the baddest most powerful characters around.

As always I think the level of power, strength, and invulnerability Cain shows is directly proportional to how focused he is which strengthens his connection to Cyttorak and the Crimson Cosmos.

This. This, this, this. I view most of the noises Cain makes are just human reaction to things, not necessarily him being hurt. When Prof. Hulk punched him in the gut, he wasn't hurt. That was just air escaping his lungs due to him not being ready for the punch and then the air being force out. It's kind of like a person throwing a fake punch at another and the 2nd guy makes a "hmph" sound preparing for the punch when his muscles tense up causing a little air to escape. But he is not actually hit nor is he hurt.

The sound effects on panel when Cain gets hit are there to add to the fight. Not to show damage per-say, but to let the reader know a hit has happened.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Thor wins this, though a lot of people scream "PIS" about that Juggernaut fight.

How wasn't it PIS? It has never ever been shown to be able to happen again. Even when Thor and Juggs have met after that fact. Seems if he could do it so easily he would do it evertime. Or how about tha was one writer WRONG take on his shield and invulnerability?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
How wasn't it PIS? It has never ever been shown to be able to happen again. Even when Thor and Juggs have met after that fact. Seems if he could do it so easily he would do it evertime. Or how about tha was one writer WRONG take on his shield and invulnerability?

Why doesn't Flash speedbiltz everyone, why doesn't Sersi turn everyone into a pig, why doesn't Prof X or MM shutdown everyone's mind, why doesn't Magneto rip the iron out everyone's blood?

Originally posted by Silent Master
Why doesn't Flash speedbiltz everyone, why doesn't Sersi turn everyone into a pig, why doesn't Prof X or MM shutdown everyone's mind, why doesn't Magneto rip the iron out everyone's blood?

Because they tend to have other ways of beating their opponent, Thor can't beat Juggernaut any other way?

Do you wanna know why your examples are piss poor silent? Because these are ESTABLISHED powers that we've seen them display numerous times. We know magneto could do that as we've seen him do such things countless times. Same with IMP's same with X's mind rape. However, Deflaco was the ONLY writer EVER to shown someone being able to override his shield/invulnerability in such a manner. Not before, or since, has this been shown or duplicated or even the source of his invulnerability. Huge huge differences but thanks for playing as always Silent.

And Mjolnir has the established ability to be a swiss-army knife, IE can do just about anything.

That is the best you could do. Thanks for playing again silent.

Mjolnir has been doing it for decades, why should I ignore it's history. Why would blocking energy be beyond it's ability when we've seen it effect energy and create shields?

you're NOT understanding the concept silent. Juggs invulnerablity has never been solely tied to FF. In pretty much all of Juggs showings.. his invulnerability has NOTHING to do with his forcefield. Thus one writers take on his invulnerability, that no other writer before or after has used, means it was one's writers BAD take.. NOT this is a fact of how to get around it. If most writer don't writer juggs that way we go with the vast clear majority of it not being tied to his FF.. not one writers take. Can't be anymore clear than that. To say nothing of the fact, that again, even bypassing it the way Thor did has never been duplicated by ANYBODY ever again. He's fought mystical powers before.. even his boss and it wasn't done in such ways. To say nothing of Thor never ever doing it again. So you expect me to believe Thor could do it with Mjolnir but Cyttorak can't even bypass his own powers... :facepalm:

All he did was basically create a shield/vortex that stopped mystical energy from reaching Juggs. Well, creating shields is well within his ability.

You still don't get it... Let me ask you this... So you feel like people should go with one writer's take on Juggs invulnerability that has NEVER EVER been shown before or after. With other writers having the vastly more consistent showings of it having nothing to do with his forcefield. That seems to be your stance Silent and I'm not surprised by the piss poor stance that most don't agree with. So you go with take that is in the clear minority?

I bet you also feel like Thor can't fly without Mjolnir and he can be pierced and put down by mere bullets then? Cool, works for me lol

When has anyone else even tried blocking his connection?

Thor can be put down by bullets.. nice.

Except, Thor has far more examples of not being put down when shot.

Does Juggernaut have examples where people have been unable to block him receiving mystical energy?

Originally posted by Newjak
Hulk has never hurt Cain unless he was using Celestial Technology.
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/926/hulk40417.jpg
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7035/hulk40418.jpg

that punch in the gut from an angry hulk hurt him, and that was a few issues after juggernaut jumped hulk in the forest in plain clothes.

That punch didn't hurt him, it is just a human reaction and noise to the air being forced out of his lungs. He still feels the need to breathe despite not actually needing the air.

Originally posted by Newjak
In the 8th Day Saga Cain showed no signs of Thor's attacks having any effect on him.

I think Cain started feeling it:
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsJuggernaut7.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsJuggernaut8.jpg

Originally posted by Newjak
And my account still stands Thor has never hurt Cain without having to effect Cain's enchantment.

Not severely, no. I'd argue that anyone on par with Thor or higher, can hurt Juggernaut physically.

Originally posted by Newjak
Are you talking about Proff. Hulk? The one where he sucker punched Cain and took him to a knee and Cain was getting right back up showing no ill signs from the attack.

Juggernaut was clearly affected by Hulk's blows here:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7035/hulk40418.th.jpg

I guess he was winded to an extent but to argue he wasn't hurt is something I disagree with. It makes sense as PAD from what I can tell also believes that Cain isn't invulnerable to higher end forces.

I see that logic a lot with Cain to explain away showings. Just because a character isn't bleeding, doesn't mean aforementioned character isn't hurt.

Originally posted by Newjak
WWH Hulk only hurt Cain after he had just went through the portal and was still not at full power.

I'm talking about this scene:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg102/Knowsbleed33/Battle/WWHXmen%203/th_WWH_Xmen_3_DCP_0025.jpg

Hulk's blow clearly affected Cain.

Originally posted by Newjak
And I used Onslaught because he was a character you mentioned, but yes the Beast was also very awkward.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Newjak
And there has been times Cain ahs faced High Heralds or Higher without resorting to his Forcefield so there hasn't always been a precedent for it. The main one that comes to mind is Nightmare who fought to a standstale without using his FF.

The latest example I can think of is his first fight with the Hulk (Early 70's I believe). Since then, his fought Thor, Merged Hulk, Onslaught, War Hulk, Captain Universe, and he clearly wasn't invulnerable then. It's been a while since I read the Doctor Strange series. Not sure how Nightmare was portrayed in that. IIRC it was #182 which was like in the late 60's.

Regarding the fight: If Juggernaut doesn't use his force field, Thor beats him down. If Cain does use his force field, Thor will simply remove it, and then beat him down.

If you think Cain's invulnerability isn't depended on his force field (At this point, I heavily disagree with this stance unless I'm forgetting something), Thor still removes his invulnerability.

Thor from #600 was beyond Cain.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That punch didn't hurt him, it is just a human reaction and noise to the air being forced out of his lungs. He still feels the need to breathe despite not actually needing the air. he also apparently feels the need to go on all fours after getting hit, and he seems to be holding his belly in the last panel.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
he also apparently feels the need to go on all fours after getting hit, and he seems to be holding his belly in the last panel.

When you get knocked down do you levitate up or something? His other arm could just be blocked by his massive body also.

As for Thor beating Juggernaut without his shield, Cain still has his healing factor which has been touched on more-so after that Thor fight. He is not going down to Thor's punches, shield or no shield.

If you still think he does, Cain brings a gun to the fight and shoots Thor.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
When you get knocked down do you levitate up or something? His other arm could just be blocked by his massive body also.

As for Thor beating Juggernaut without his shield, Cain still has his healing factor which has been touched on more-so after that Thor fight. He is not going down to Thor's punches, shield or no shield.

If you still think he does, Cain brings a gun to the fight and shoots Thor.

D'Spayre was a high extreme. Besides, it's not how comics work. In that very issue, Juggernaut believed he was about to be destroyed....while walking around as a skeleton. ermm

Strong healing factors don't translate into I-can't-be-knocked-out as Hulk, Wolverine and most other uber healers can attest to. Doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
D'Spayre was a high extreme. Besides, it's not how comics work. In that very issue, Juggernaut believed he was about to be destroyed....while walking around as a skeleton. ermm

Strong healing factors don't translate into I-can't-be-knocked-out as Hulk, Wolverine and most other uber healers can attest to. Doesn't make sense, but it is what it is.

If he can take the pain of having his flesh ripped from him, then he isn't going down to punches from Thor or Hulk.

Juggernaut may have believed that, but he was surprised that after D'Spraye had taken "all" of his power away, that he was still standing, with more power. As long as he has the right motivation, he shouldn't lose to any physical encounter.

captain universe knocked him out

Yup. He beat that ass black and blue, then left him in a coma. To be fair, some psychic power was involved IIRC.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
If he can take the pain of having his flesh ripped from him, then he isn't going down to punches from Thor or Hulk.

Juggernaut may have believed that, but he was surprised that after D'Spraye had taken "all" of his power away, that he was still standing, with more power. As long as he has the right motivation, he shouldn't lose to any physical encounter.

Like I said, that's not how comics work. Wolverine has been stripped to the bones, and Hulk has come extremely close to that state to. Heck, I think even Diana might have at one point or another. A powerful healing factor, or in this case an enchantment that prevents one from dying, doesn't mean you can't be knocked out as history attests.

IIRC, Juggernaut made the comment at the near end of the issue after the power stealing and everything. He was preparing himself for death until D'Spayre's sister intervened. The mere fact that the notion was presented supports my point. Comics don't make a lot of sense.

Spider-Man commented on how each Cap Universe's power set was different. The user at the time had an extreme hatred for Juggs, and the power molded around that. He ended up just ripping his helmet from him and mind blasting him. The cover was very misleading.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I said, that's not how comics work. Wolverine has been stripped to the bones, and Hulk has come extremely close to that state to. Heck, I think even Diana might have at one point or another. A powerful healing factor, or in this case an enchantment that prevents one from dying, doesn't mean you can't be knocked out as history attests.

IIRC, Juggernaut made the comment at the near end of the issue after the power stealing and everything. He was preparing himself for death until D'Spayre's sister intervened.

A guy who is the embodiment of durability in Marvel is in a different league/class than Wolverine. He is made to take punches shield or not. Also, when Wolverine was stripped to his bones, he was not standing ready to fight. He was passed out for a while till he healed.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
A guy who is the embodiment of durability in Marvel is in a different league/class than Wolverine. He is made to take punches shield or not. Also, when Wolverine was stripped to his bones, he was not standing ready to fight. He was passed out for a while till he healed.

The point stands. I don't care that Juggernaut is empowered by Cytorrak. You're arguing that Juggernaut cannot be knocked out or put down because of that one instance with D'Spayre. Not only are you passing off that extreme showing as some type of norm, it's not how comics operate.

I've seen Wolverine climb out of a vat of molten steel as nothing but a skeleton.

srug

And embodiment of durability? ermm

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The point stands. I don't care that Juggernaut is empowered by Cytorrak. You're arguing that Juggernaut cannot be knocked out or put down because of that one instance with D'Spayre. Not only are you passing off that extreme showing as some type of norm, it's not how comics operate.

It is not just with D'Spraye, it is also all the other times he has fought without his shield and not been KO'd. While I think Thor is overall more powerful than Hulk, Juggernaut took harder punches (w/o his shield) against WWH and was not KO'd. Also a weakened Juggernaut took punches, straight to the head, from a Hyperion that supposedly killed Thor and Hulk in other dimensions. And yes, that was supposed to be King Hyperion from the Exiles.

I gotta go take an exam, later.

Ok to just kind of some up these posts into one.

Like I've said before and on more than one occasion Cain has exhibited what could be clearly defined as moments of pain only to have him so no effect to the attack at all. Like I mentioned before Nightcrawler throwing a torch into his eyes and acting like it hurt even though he has had molten metal poured unto him with no effect or show of pain.

And yes those punched from WWH Hulk and Prof/Merged Hulk would fall into that category. You may say but clearly he said something that indicated it effected. While normally I would agree with most other characters with Cain you've got to take those reactions with a grain of salt considering his history of acting like things effect him when after wards they clearly haven't.

As for Nightmare, the Nightmare in that arc was when he was about to f up all of reality and had just beaten Dr. Strange and was mentally mind rapping him to keep Strange from freeing Eternity who Nightmare had supposedly captured. Cain was able to stalemate that version of Nightmare.

Like I've said Cain's attitude and mindset at the time tends to be the determining factor with how he interacts with attacks and other people.

As for Captain Universe I'm starting to notice a trend with things like these. I an not certify this for certain but I think character calling upon higher level mystic powers can effect Cain based simply on the fact their presence alone maybe enough to screw with his connection to Cyttorak.

Like War Hulk w/ the Celestial Technology or Shatterstar's sword or the Captain Universe. I'm not saying its a guaranteed thing either because I've always thought the more focused Cain is the stronger his connection becomes the more power he takes in. Like in the next issue Cain was able to go Toe to Toe with Captain Universe and was winning until CU had to resort to mind whamming him.

Silent also think Thor can't fly without Mjolnir and can be killed by mere bullets.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Silent also think Thor can't fly without Mjolnir and can be killed by mere bullets.

Why are you lying?

Lying.. How am I lying? You're saying that we take ONE writer's take on Juggs Forcefield being tied to his invulnerability.. and go... it counts since we saw it on panel. Even though countless writer since then and before never had such a connection established. What's worse a simple forcefield from Thor was able to do that, yet Cyttorak himself couldn't take juggs own power away for some reason? Yet Thor has never done so before or since... Ooo that's right because Juggs invulvernablity hasn't been portrayed as such again. Thus, if you think that is a valid showing that we can act as if it's fact.. and it takes one showing to do so.. you MUST think Thor can't fly without mjolnir because that in fact has been shown a few times. Just like Thor getting shot and KO'd by a bullet has been shown before. So either you side with the majority of takes by writers or the minority. It's that simple. You're defending the minority take on juggs at this time, so I can only guess that is your stance for all. Or is are you just being hypocritical?

I'm saying that there is one instance of it working and zero examples of it failing; therefore you have no grounds to dismiss it.

All I read was the one writer bit. DeFalco is clearly not the only writer who believes Cain can be harmed by sufficient physical force. I.e. Top Tiers and such. DeFalco just interwined the field into his portrayal, which is the best way to reconcile Juggernaut's showings imo.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
It is not just with D'Spraye, it is also all the other times he has fought without his shield and not been KO'd. While I think Thor is overall more powerful than Hulk, Juggernaut took harder punches (w/o his shield) against WWH and was not KO'd. Also a weakened Juggernaut took punches, straight to the head, from a Hyperion that supposedly killed Thor and Hulk in other dimensions. And yes, that was supposed to be King Hyperion from the Exiles.

I gotta go take an exam, later.

Do you really not see the flaw in this line of thinking?

I don't understand how you think those two scenes support it being impossible to knock Juggernaut out (He was hurt physically in both of them) Especially Cain being beaten to a bloody pulp by Hyperion (And I'm not impressed by killing alternate reality characters) Cain withstanding a handful of attacks from Green Scar and not being noticeably damaged is something I would expect by the way.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I'm saying that there is one instance of it working and zero examples of it failing; therefore you have no grounds to dismiss it.

Ooo I see.. So are there any other instance of Thor being shot by the same type of weapons with the same bullets that KO'd him and made him bleed? There isn't... thus there is nothing to dismiss that showing.

Except, Thor has been shown to be uninjured after being shot with higher caliber bullets, so there is every reason to dismiss that one.

The bullet thing was a gigantic low showing for Thor

Originally posted by psycho gundam
The bullet thing was a gigantic low showing for Thor

IIRC, the writer even apologized and said that he didn't know much about Thor.

Matters not, Cyttorak is EXPONENTIONALLY greater at shielding/taking away Juggs invulnerability than Thor.. yet he couldn't. Thus, higher calibur bullets don't matter either. Fact is, it worked once, you're okay with that (even though other showings prove otherwise) so I'm okay with it. By the way.. which higher calibur bullets are you referencing?

Cyttorak didn't try and block it, you're comparing apples and oranges.

Originally posted by Starscream M
No BFR. Could Thor take down Juggernaut in this rematch of the titans?!

This is v3 Odin-force Thor, the one that took down Bor.



This is really all you need to know right here. He took down Bor. Does Juggernaut stand any chance whatsoever is the real question.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't understand how you think those two scenes support it being impossible to knock Juggernaut out (He was hurt physically in both of them) Especially Cain being beaten to a bloody pulp by Hyperion (And I'm not impressed by killing alternate reality characters) Cain withstanding a handful of attacks from Green Scar and not being noticeably damaged is something I would expect by the way.

Good luck.

Those two scenes should be enough to say he can't be KO'd in a straight fist fight with Thor. He has too much going for him in the brawling department. I think it would take more than what Thor can dish out in fisticuffs to put Classic Juggernaut down for the count. Throw in other powers, and you may be able to sway me.

After reading through countless threads like these, I've come to the conclusion that they will never be resolved.

That is unless Marvel explains where Terran based deities rank in the cosmic scheme of things. Odin is a Terran Skyfather worshiped by a small group of Northern Europeans. There are other Earth based Skyfathers, generally each continent has it's own (some even have multiple).

Cytorrak is a universally (multiversal?) worshiped being. Terran and alien mages, hell even demon lords and gods, throughout the planes have invoked his name in spells.

Common sense would say Odinforce Thor isn't doing jack vs the avatar of a universally worshiped and invoked power. But this is comics, so who knows?

Odin has better on panel feats than Cytorrak though, and that should be taken into consideration too.

Back on thread topic, Juggernaut has resisted a God Blast and multiple hits from Mjolnir. These things have torn through a Celestial's armor and cracked it's skull. The Destroyer armor possessed by Odin and all Asgard couldn't even accomplish this.

However Thor could pull some shenanigans with Mjolnir and cancel Juggernaut's invulnerability again and the fight would be over this time because there's no 60 second limit handicapping Thor.

I'll give this to Odinforce Thor (or even regular Thor) 10/10.

Thor wins this. Bor would win this too against juggernaut.

The one time Juggernaut has withstood hits from Thor directly is during the 8th day Sage where Jurgens had him noticeably amped.

I'd also like to point out that Cain had his force field when he was pushed back by the God Blast (Overpowered Cytorrak's enchantment that his unstoppable while moving by the way) and that was obviously not as powerful as the God Blast used against the Celestial Brain Dome. Not by a fair amount. It was under the same writer and not very far apart.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
Those two scenes should be enough to say he can't be KO'd in a straight fist fight with Thor. He has too much going for him in the brawling department. I think it would take more than what Thor can dish out in fisticuffs to put Classic Juggernaut down for the count. Throw in other powers, and you may be able to sway me.

You could argue that since he didn't go down to hits from Green Scar, he should be able to withstand more punishment from Thor, but straight up removing the possibility? Disagreed. It should also be noted that (1) Thor was pissed off and (2) Thor struck Juggernaut with more blows in quick succession.

My guess for why you're using the Hyperion scene is because Juggernaut was extremely damaged and didn't go down. But, that's not how comics work. I can easily point you to numerous scenes where a character is bloodied to hell and down, yet in another scene, they are knocked the hell out without a scratch. Their have been plenty of such instances that you would need a direct comparison for it to matter.

What exactly are you arguing by the way? That Juggernaut can't be knocked out, or that classic Thor can't knock him out? Two very different things.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You could argue that since he didn't go down to hits from Green Scar, he should be able to withstand more punishment from Thor, but straight up removing the possibility? Disagreed. It should also be noted that (1) Thor was pissed off and (2) Thor struck Juggernaut with more blows in quick succession.

My guess for why you're using the Hyperion scene is because Juggernaut was extremely damaged and didn't go down. But, that's not how comics work. I can easily point you to numerous scenes where a character is bloodied to hell and down, yet in another scene, they are knocked the hell out without a scratch. Their have been plenty of such instances that you would need a direct comparison for it to matter.

What exactly are you arguing by the way? That Juggernaut can't be knocked out, or that classic Thor can't knock him out? Two very different things.

I could also argue more than just his forcefield was taken away at in that fight as well. When Thor's enchantment reached the time limit and Cain's forcefield came back, it also seemed as if he had not been beat to within an inch of KO, and instantly healed that damage. He was able to fight as if he had not already been fighting, no signs of the wear and tear Thor game him.

The Hyperion thing is much different than others getting just bloodied up. I was mainly focusing on Hyperion throwing that "game ending" punch at Juggernaut's head only to realize he can't bust it and Juggs just looked up and smiled. A weakened Juggernaut was beat to a bloody pulp and laughed off that punch from Hyperion. Now you have a much stronger Juggernaut taking the same level of punches from Thor. If Hyperion couldn't KO a weakened Juggernaut, I definitely don't see Thor doing it.

I'm basically trying to argue that Juggernaut cannot be KO'd by people on Thor and Hulk's level, shield or no shield. Even if they could damage him, his healing factor and endless supply of power and energy will keep him in the game.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I'm basically trying to argue that Juggernaut cannot be KO'd by people on Thor and Hulk's level, shield or no shield. Even if they could damage him, his healing factor and endless supply of power and energy will keep him in the game.

Someone could then bring up the fact that onslaught tooled him and knocked him out across the state........then the hulk nuked a stronger onslaught with absolutely zero leverage and his arm's being held down by onslaught

Mindless Hulk though.

Originally posted by Zack Fair
Mindless Hulk though. Worldbreaker did more with a mere forward advance

the Japanese earthquake, the Chilean one...and sprinkle the Haitian one aswell to equal the effect of that hulk stepping out of the shower

Originally posted by psycho gundam
Someone could then bring up the fact that onslaught tooled him and knocked him out across the state.

That happened off panel and the only thing Marvel has said (repeatedly) is that he "magnetically threw him" across those states. He is a psychic being, there are more logical ways he could have been knocked out. Especially off panel.

Originally posted by DarkOdin
I take it you never seen the battle where Thor negate juggs enchantment and beat juggs harder then Mike tyson fighting a 7 old school girl????

I've seen the latter of the two fights. That 1st grader was beat to a pulp, but she stood her ground longer than Peter McNeely. Great fight.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
That happened off panel and the only thing Marvel has said (repeatedly) is that he "magnetically threw him" across those states. He is a psychic being, there are more logical ways he could have been knocked out. Especially off panel. so then the fall knocked him out?

either way it looks bad

Since when is Juggs invulnerable only because of his force field?

Originally posted by DarkOdin
Thor says otherwise Thor can suck my Balls...