Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

So the Endless with all of their members: Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Despair, Desire and Delirium run a gauntlet without CIS, PIS, and Jobbing.

Gauntlet:
1- The seven friendless
2- The Anti-Monitor(COIE) and Shuma Gorath
3- Ion(classic) and Parallax(ZH)
4- Secret Wars Galactus, Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Death, Abraxas, Phoenix Force
5- Lucifer
6- Mandrakk
7- The Living Tribunal
8- Molecule man
9- The Beyonder

Gaiman's versions BTW.

How far do they get?

Mandrakk should be 8, imho.

They stop at Mandrakk or Beyonder.

They get past Molecule Man and Tribunal?

Why not?

Molecule man, surely.
Living Tribunal, I doubt he's stronger than all of them.

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
Why not?

Molecule man, surely.
Living Tribunal, I doubt he's stronger than all of them.


Pre-Ret Molecule Man>>>>>LT though.
And in the LT vs Mandrakk thread most people were saying that LT would win.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Pre-Ret Molecule Man>>>>>LT though.
And in the LT vs Mandrakk thread most people were saying that LT would win. Are you meaning pre-retcon? Because your post didn't say that.

It should be common sense when they're above Mandrakk and LT on the list...right?

Originally posted by galactusischere
It should be common sense when they're above Mandrakk and LT on the list...right?

Not when the list is messed up like it is.

Originally posted by kevdude
Not when the list is messed up like it is.

How is it messed up?
Obviously all the abstracts together are above AM/Shuma or Parallax/Ion.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Pre-Ret Molecule Man>>>>>LT though.
And in the LT vs Mandrakk thread most people were saying that LT would win.
1. I agree. Though the Endless combined are also stronger than LT imho.

2. Mandrakk was eating away DC's GOD.. he was literally tearing apart everything in DC. And that was his weaker form even.

Well the Presence never really did anything.
Im sure LT can acomplish such a feat. And MM created a barrier stronger than the multi-verse(at the time omni-verse) itself.

bump

They Clear It Easily.

Originally posted by galactusischere
This is more right.
Gauntlet:
1- The seven friendless
2-Ion(classic) and Parallax(ZH)
3-The Anti-Monitor(COIE) and Shuma Gorath
4- Molecule man(SW)
5- Secret Wars Galactus, Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Death, Abraxas, Phoenix Force
6- Lucifer
7- The Living Tribuna
8- Mandrakk
9- The Beyonder
?

Originally posted by supremthor


Molecule Man>>>Living Tribunal.
And 80 percent of the people said that LT is superior to Mandrakk.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Molecule Man>>>Living Tribunal.
when was this ever stated in Secret Wars? you are looking way past his actual feats in SW. Yes Doom gave him full understanding of his powers, but he was not in anyway above LT. the way his powers worked was he had control over all existing matter around him on a large scale, to the point were he could control living matter. But he was not in anyway unkillable, and his molecularwas not on a inversal scale as some whom havent fully read the whole SW series would think. and his powers didnt work past more abstract concepts like Time, Death, Magic etc. In a Sense his was like a Lucifer light in terms of controlling his surrounding matter to what ever effect he want like giving other people powers.

and until LT has a has a greater feat then that of a weakened Mandrake, no his not.

Originally posted by supremthor
when was this ever stated in Secret Wars? you are looking way past his actual feats in SW. Yes Doom gave him full understanding of his powers, but he was not in anyway above LT. the way his powers worked was he had control over all existing matter around him on a large scale, to the point were he could control living matter. But he was not in anyway unkillable, and his molecularwas not on a inversal scale as some whom havent fully read the whole SW series would think. and his powers didnt work past more abstract concepts like Time, Death, Magic etc. In a Sense his was like a Lucifer light in terms of controlling his surrounding matter to what ever effect he want like giving other people powers.

LT and Uatu had to ask/beg Owen to help them save the multi-verse from Beyonder.
He created a barrier stronger than the multi-verse.

All in the respect threads.

Originally posted by supremthor
and until LT has a has a greater feat then that of a weakened Mandrake, no his not, and that goes for LT as well i generally place LT,Beyonder, Lucifer on the same level with a difference in power being slim to none.

Originally posted by galactusischere
LT and Uatu had to ask/beg Owen to help them save the multi-verse from Beyonder.
He created a barrier stronger than the multi-verse.

All in the respect threads.

that only because both of them cube beings.

Do the Endless get endless turns at this gauntlet?

Originally posted by supremthor
and until LT has a has a greater feat then that of a weakened Mandrakk, no his not, and that goes for LT as well i generally place LT,Beyonder, Lucifer on the same level with a difference in power being slim to none.


Beyonder>>>>>>>>>>LT>Mandrakk>>Lucifer

Pre-Retcon Beyonder Killed Death and LT didn't do shit.
Living Tribunal could only try to TALK to Beyonder rather than fight him.

Mandrakk was eating all reality. Living Tribunal has helped create the omniverse. He probably can destroy it with a gesture.

reality creators >>>>>>> reality eaters

they have zero chance of getting past 4, the endless are a lot cooler than they are impressive. eternity contains the concepts of 6 of them and a lot more crap within himself and marvel death matches the endless death - maybe surpasses it as the endless one is just one aspect of death and has to share the stage with nekrom etc. Then there are still another half a dozen abstracts for all your needs.

the problem with the endless is that only death, destruction and destiny represent anything really impressive, the others are avatars of states of conscience and human emotions. They are part of an inwards, reflexive, anthropocentric narrative - excelent by the way - that revolves arround existential questions and human drama, infinty/eternity are nature itself

They stop at one. I don't know why you put a group of high-end abstracts at the lowest spot below Shuma Gorath and such.

oh right the e people, that's who they are. yeah they crush the endless

The list is kinda messed up. COIE Anti-Monitor below Mandrakk?

They stop at number 5. Lucifer is stated to be the 2nd most powerful being in creation.

Originally posted by galactusischere
Beyonder>>>>>>>>>>LT>Mandrakk>>Lucifer


Can't comment on Mandrakk as I haven't read the story, but I disagree on LT being > Lucifer.

Lucifer has the same station as LT, being just beneath DCU's top god, and he has the feats to match anything LT's done, like the famous explosion he took from his brother with zero damage, and than shaping his own multiverse out of it complete with crafting concepts like "time"...

Originally posted by 753
oh right the e people, that's who they are. yeah they crush the endless

Death alone could take Eternity.

Hell, Eternity is one of the biggest jobbers among abstracts. Who "hasen't" hurt or affected the poor embodiment of all that is

Originally posted by 753
they have zero chance of getting past 4, the endless are a lot cooler than they are impressive. eternity contains the concepts of 6 of them and a lot more crap within himself and marvel death matches the endless death - maybe surpasses it as the endless one is just one aspect of death and has to share the stage with nekrom etc. Then there are still another half a dozen abstracts for all your needs.

the problem with the endless is that only death, destruction and destiny represent anything really impressive, the others are avatars of states of conscience and human emotions. They are part of an inwards, reflexive, anthropocentric narrative - excelent by the way - that revolves arround existential questions and human drama, infinty/eternity are nature itself

The part of Death is more due to clumsy insertion than anything else. Gaimon's world takes place within the DC universe, which already had concepts of Death such as the Black Racer and Nekron. Also, Johns just retconned Nekron's origin.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
The part of Death is more due to clumsy insertion than anything else. Gaimon's world takes place within the DC universe, which already had concepts of Death such as the Black Racer and Nekron. Also, Johns just retconned Nekron's origin.

True, but hell lords and death goddesses tend to be a dime a dozen. See: Hela and Death in Marvel. Mephisto too.

Originally posted by supremthor

when was this ever stated in Secret Wars? you are looking way past his actual feats in SW. Yes Doom gave him full understanding of his powers, but he was not in anyway above LT. the way his powers worked was he had control over all existing matter around him on a large scale, to the point were he could control living matter. But he was not in anyway unkillable, and his molecularwas not on a inversal scale as some whom havent fully read the whole SW series would think. and his powers didnt work past more abstract concepts like Time, Death, Magic etc. In a Sense his was like a Lucifer light in terms of controlling his surrounding matter to what ever effect he want like giving other people powers.
Classic Owen Reece was more powerful than all of Marvel combined (including the LT)

"some whom havent fully read the whole SW series would think"

... What books were you reading friend? Or is it you never read SW II?

Doesn't the combined Endless = God or become God? If so, Endless clear it.

Oblivion solos.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
The part of Death is more due to clumsy insertion than anything else. Gaimon's world takes place within the DC universe, which already had concepts of Death such as the Black Racer and Nekron. Also, Johns just retconned Nekron's origin.

Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..

The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..

And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.

Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.

But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.

Originally posted by cdtm
Death alone could take Eternity.

Hell, Eternity is one of the biggest jobbers among abstracts. Who "hasen't" hurt or affected the poor embodiment of all that is

well, marvel death/oblivion certainly will someday. But right now I doubt either them or gaiman's death could really take him - it's a stalemate that lasts for an eternity until the universe finally ceases to be and then death/oblivion swallow all

DC death does say she stays until the last thing dies and then turns off the lights of the universe, but the fourth rank of the gauntles has oblivion and he outlast even that and takes her within himself once there is nothing left to die. there is no way they can win.

the seven friendless have entropy and his feat alone dwarves all the endless too

the endless are screwed, largely because only 3 of them represent anything important. seriously, what are desire, dream, delirium and despair gonna do here?

Originally posted by cdtm
Can't comment on Mandrakk as I haven't read the story, but I disagree on LT being > Lucifer.

Lucifer has the same station as LT, being just beneath DCU's top god, and he has the feats to match anything LT's done, like the famous explosion he took from his brother with zero damage, and than shaping his own multiverse out of it complete with crafting concepts like "time"...

I think it would take both michael and lucifer to make up the LT

Originally posted by cdtm
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..

The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..

And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.

Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.

But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.

Yeah final crisis is all over the place, but abstracts in general are redundant and confusing because writers ignore previous characters who already embody a concept

Originally posted by cdtm
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..

The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..

And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.

Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.

But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.

It's mind-bending stuff.

Also, she was not scared of him. He just made it clear that she has no authority over him if he desires it.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
It's mind-bending stuff.

Also, she was not scared of him. He just made it clear that she has no authority over him if he desires it.

True, but she also didn't contradict him when he threatened what he could do to her once he got his full powers back.

Anyways, her mere presence in Lucifers universe at least suggest The Endless aren't limited to a single universe.. Like, I couldn't see Marvel's Death traveling outside of her normal universe to deliver a message, because she's tied to her resident universe. She wouldn't be able to exist outside of it..

Originally posted by cdtm
True, but she also didn't contradict him when he threatened what he could do to her once he got his full powers back.

Anyways, her mere presence in Lucifers universe at least suggest The Endless aren't limited to a single universe.. Like, I couldn't see Marvel's Death traveling outside of her normal universe to deliver a message, because she's tied to her resident universe. She wouldn't be able to exist outside of it..

marvel death exists, or more precisely operates, in the whole omniverse simultaneously, no travel is necessary. In a way she exists outside all those universes too, because her and oblivion's realms are not part of eternity/infinity.

Originally posted by 753
well, marvel death/oblivion certainly will someday. But right now I doubt either them or gaiman's death could really take him - it's a stalemate that lasts for an eternity until the universe finally ceases to be and then death/oblivion swallow all

DC death does say she stays until the last thing dies and then turns off the lights of the universe, but the fourth rank of the gauntles has oblivion and he outlast even that and takes her within himself once there is nothing left to die. there is no way they can win.

the seven friendless have entropy and his feat alone dwarves all the endless too

the endless are screwed, largely because only 3 of them represent anything important. seriously, what are desire, dream, delirium and despair gonna do here?
I'm pretty sure Dream is actually one of the most, if not THE most powerful Endless because in addition to the Dreaming doesn't he also govern reality to an extent?

2 or 4.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'm pretty sure Dream is actually one of the most, if not THE most powerful Endless because in addition to the Dreaming doesn't he also govern reality to an extent?

To an extent, yes. They can all manifest their conceptual opposites to a certain extent, but just like destruction's creations were somewhat senteced to fail, their feats with their opposites are usually less than impressive. Dreaming's warp lacks any feats for a battle of this level. If I'm not mistaken death and destiny are the most powerfull ones, given their very natures and roles. The dreaming is dependant upon the existence of thinking and dreaming beings.

Destruction was supposed to be a big deal, the mass collapse that fuels stars and sustains life, but he was an underachiever. Seriously, he gave up his role in the cosmos because humans would develop nuclear weapons? that's just how petty the frame of their concerns and activities were, it's the nature of gaiman's story, human beings and their existential conflicts were this big deal.

Eternity and infinity are what their names say, oblivion is primordial nothingess from which everything came and will return to, you can take it from there

Originally posted by cdtm
Come to think of it, there's a lot of this in comics..

The Antigod/Decreator in Morrison's Doom Patrol was supposed to have been made when The Presence said "Let there be light", and cast it's first shadow. But that kind of steps on the heels of The Great Evil Breast, a.k.a. The Original Darkness..

And the whole Mandrakk and Over-Monitor thing has it's own set of headaches... Does it exist within the larger scope of The Presence's creation? Or, is The Presence itself just a part of this larger organism?... Do the 5d imps also exist as bacteria within it? And don't even bring in Vertigo, where we actually see outside of DC's creation... And the same thing applies to Mandrakk and The Endless. If the Over-Monitor is just an aspect of DC creation, than that means The Endless have dominion over it.

Kind of hard to say whether The Endless get past Mandrakk or not without knowing it's relationship to the hierarchy of DC's creation.

But I'm pretty sure Lucifer could stop them. Death herself was afraid of Lucifer on his death bed, and Michael (Roughly Lucifers equal) pushed around Destiny in his own realm, so Lucifer should be above even the combined group.

Well Death wasn't that much afraid of Lucifer, it was more she knew how to handle him in her realm. Michael never pushed Destiny around either so I don't know where you got that. Zero Hour was a side effect of Dreams battle, if that is a side effect then everyone should understand why they don't interfere much, they are just that powerful. The list is still messed up and they would destroy nearly everyone on it (except maybe Lucifer or Mandrakk)

4 should be lower imo

Originally posted by kevdude
Well Death wasn't that much afraid of Lucifer, it was more she knew how to handle him in her realm. Michael never pushed Destiny around either so I don't know where you got that. Zero Hour was a side effect of Dreams battle, if that is a side effect then everyone should understand why they don't interfere much, they are just that powerful. The list is still messed up and they would destroy nearly everyone on it (except maybe Lucifer or Mandrakk)

With regards to Michael and Destiny, I'm referring to when Michael and Lucifer were in D's realm, and Michael snatched the book out of his hands. Plus, Destiny was basically just taking Michaels disrespect.

Originally posted by cdtm
With regards to Michael and Destiny, I'm referring to when Michael and Lucifer were in D's realm, and Michael snatched the book out of his hands. Plus, Destiny was basically just taking Michaels disrespect.

I would agree he was disrespectful (mainly cause of the events happening) but no time did Michael take Destiny's book, he said he would but Destiny stopped it from happening.

Originally posted by cdtm
With regards to Michael and Destiny, I'm referring to when Michael and Lucifer were in D's realm, and Michael snatched the book out of his hands. Plus, Destiny was basically just taking Michaels disrespect.

Destiny is not exactly an 'active' character. He's doomed to do what he is fated to do. Lucifer regards him as the embodiment of predestination. If he let Michael disrespect him and Lucifer burn the pages, it's because it was going to happen.

Originally posted by Johnny Sorrow
Destiny is not exactly an 'active' character. He's doomed to do what he is fated to do. Lucifer regards him as the embodiment of predestination. If he let Michael disrespect him and Lucifer burn the pages, it's because it was going to happen.

so there's no free will in their universe?

Originally posted by 753
so there's no free will in their universe?
Not if there's an Omniscient being there isn't. Destiny like Doctor Manhattan (but in an even larger way) is a puppet who can see (and records) the strings.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Not if there's an Omniscient being there isn't. Destiny like Doctor Manhattan (but in an even larger way) is a puppet who can see (and records) the strings.

but wasnt lucifer's thing all about taking control of his own destiny? did he acknowledge there is no free will?

Originally posted by 753
but wasnt lucifer's thing all about taking control of his own destiny? did he acknowledge there is no free will?
Lucifer is a special case it seems. If there is any true free will in the DCU then Lucifer is the only one that has it. Michael on the other hand represents the other side (read: Most of) creation that follows the Presence's plan blindly.