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Abstract Family: Abraxas. Oblivion, 616 Eternity, 616 Infinity, 616 Galactus(with Taa II and a universe absorbed but no UN), Entropy, and 616 Death.

Endless Family: Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Despair, Desire and Delirium.

PIS, CIS, and Jobbing are all off.

All combatants have m-bodies, and when an m-body is destroyed they are out of the fight.

Spectre, Lucifer, Michael, Nemesis, and Living Tribunal watch.

Really hard to say

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Really hard to say yea the dc guys lack feats...

BUMP!!
atleast based on reputation, do u guys think that the endless can beat the abstract family?

On average the Endless are written better for what its worth. Its difficult to say anything else. The Endless aren't written for Vs battles.

I think Abstracts can win. Endless may be cooler but their actual combat feats are either nonexistent or entirely mediocre.

Endless. There was a point when another figure handed Dream the DC universe as a trinket. In Sandman itself, there was a sense that the Endless, Lucifer, etc. were above single universes,

Originally posted by Q99
Endless. There was a point when another figure handed Dream the DC universe as a trinket. In Sandman itself, there was a sense that the Endless, Lucifer, etc. were above single universes,

so are prime abstracts such as 616 Eternity, Infinity etc.

616 Eternity is comprised of prime Eternity and Infinity, amirite?

This is a tough match.. The Endless are depicted as TRUE abstracts, never really engaging in matches.

Abraxas and Oblivion would give Destiny a tough time..

That said, personally, I view The Endless as Abstracts above Eternity and Galactus.
Only beings LT-level or above can beat them (ie. Akhenaton, Edifice Rex, etc.)

Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
616 Eternity is comprised of prime Eternity and Infinity, amirite?

This is a tough match.. The Endless are depicted as TRUE abstracts, never really engaging in matches.

Abraxas and Oblivion would give Destiny a tough time..

That said, personally, I view The Endless as Abstracts above Eternity and Galactus.
Only beings LT-level or above can beat them (ie. Akhenaton, Edifice Rex, etc.)


Eternity=Time
Infinity=Space
Abraxas=Destruction
Oblivion=Nothingness
Galactus=Devourer of Worlds
Entropy=Undoer of Eternity/creation
Death=Well..death

And the 616 abstracts are all multi-versal, if thats what your asking.

Morpheus Solos.

Originally posted by Q99
Endless. There was a point when another figure handed Dream the DC universe as a trinket. In Sandman itself, there was a sense that the Endless, Lucifer, etc. were above single universes,

I rem that, it was Dc Odin whom offered Dream a separate Dc universe that he had created in exchange for hell, sense Lucifer had given it to dream. and mind you the unverse that odin had created had characters the likes of spectre , superman, dr.fate etc.

The Abstracts have just as important positions as the Endless do. Dream got sealed by some mediocre magicians in a fish tank. IMO, the abstracts could easily do the same thing.

In a DR. Strange comic, the whole marvel universe was shown as just being a dream of Eternity's.

Agreed. Both have equal importance from the -verse where they belong.

What only matters is how the readers view them.

Marvel treats the abstracts more as "big explosion" type characters, while Endless are shown mostly by what they don't use their powers for. It's effective storytelling, but it gives the edge to marvel for combat feats.

Eternity was shown as ridiculously powerful at first. Almost omnipotent in the truest sense of the word. He's been mighty diminished since then.

Originally posted by King Kandy
The Abstracts have just as important positions as the Endless do. Dream got sealed by some mediocre magicians in a fish tank. IMO, the abstracts could easily do the same thing.

In a DR. Strange comic, the whole marvel universe was shown as just being a dream of Eternity's.

And A weak-ass Pharoh God Completely Stomped both Morningstar & The Demiurgos after completeing centuries of prep.

I hope you remember that guys.

in Vertigo weak characters with good use of prep can get a few wins against Omnipotent Beings with a strong code of ethics.

And sometimes ABC logic just doesn't work. Example: A motivated Wolf can take down Lucifer at any moment. But everyone knows Lucifer > The Wolf.

Maziken who is <<<<<<<<<< Lucifer could have fulfilled the contract on him with ridiculous ease. But she chose not to. Theres a scene where she has him cold. In that scene Lucifer knows only the oath she swore to him is what is keeping him alive.

Characters in DC respect Protocol. Example: The disastrous audience which Morpheus could not ignore. He was forced by his conscience to abandon his affairs and attend to the needs of his minion. Morpheus's enemies who were gaining in momentum used that untimely distraction to undermine his power.

ABC logic does not apply to characters like the Endless. Feats where they exist really ought to be viewed in context as with the Trickster God Pwning The Demiurgos and The Magicians Pwning Dream.

its worth noting Lucifer had obtained Spells and artifacts created by Dream and had prepped for centuries prior to challenging A distracted Morpheus to h2h combat.
Its been suggested that Dream was afraid of the outcome. Thats true. But its not Lucifer he was afraid of. Lucifer was nothing more than a pawn, Dream was aware the fight had been rigged as yet another ploy to weaken him and draw his attention away from protecting his *Realm*. His chances of surviving an ambush after dispatching a prepped Lucifer were not good.

Of All the Endless Gaiman's Dream has Arguably the biggest power source. We all have the capacity to create imagine and dream. His Realm reaches beyond DC/Vertigo's 4th wall into our own RL universe.. I mean we've all participated in Dreams conversations with the reader numerous times Right?


In a forum Fight where Bloodlust is on and Responsibility is off, Dream Solos. He has all the creative force in our RL universe at his disposal.

imo

I'll go first.

What

a lil bio on the endless

Destruction: One of the seven Endless, inconceivably powerful beings, Destruction is both lord and personification of all Destruction and Creation. He has power over the action and process of destroying as well as the act of making, inventing, or prod

Death: She is Death, and she can choose when and where to take lives. Her power is not limited to humans and she can simultaneously manifest herself to innumerable dying and newly born beings throughout the multiverse. She is also in charge of taking the lives of any other living being, as well as ideas, concepts, worlds and universes. Anything that can end ... which is, after all, everything.

Desire: One of the seven Endless, inconceivably powerful beings, Desire is both lord and personification of all desire and fulfillment, She/he had god-like powers and absolute power over her/his realm. He/She has power over craving of the unattainable. The force of physical appetite or emotional need. Strong envious desire. In contrast he/she is also lord over satisfaction, extending to the attainment of ones desire.

Despair: One of the seven Endless, inconceivably powerful beings, Despair is both lord and personification of all Despair and Dread, She had god-like powers and absolute power over her realm, which was filled with her pet rats and windows that looked out on mirrors of the mortal world. She could drive mortals to despair by sinking a small hook into their hearts. The Power she held is over hopelessness, fear and anxiety and in turn hope.

Destiny: One of the seven Endless, inconceivably powerful beings, Destiny is both lord and personification of all destiny and freedom, He had god-like powers and absolute power over his realm, a garden containing all possible destinies of present, past and future. Destiny has power over predetermined course of events as well as the absence of necessity and constraint in choice.

Dreams: One of the seven Endless, inconceivably powerful beings, Dream is both lord and personification of all dreams and stories, all that is not in reality (which, in turn, Dream may define by his existence). He controls sleep, dreams, nightmares, and insomnia.His illusions don't just seem real, they are real, as dreams and reality are far closer to one another than most realize. This includes nightmares sent as punishment. Dream can control the dreams of anyone he choses, and has, in fact constructed them all.Inside the Dreaming, he can easily alter reality at whim, creating objects and entities to obey his every command. The Dreams landscape and weather can change simply but his current mood. Dream can create anything from dreamstuff, and is omnipotent in his own realm. He also controls all the dreams within it. Anyone who doesn't show the proper respect is also subject to his power.

Delirium: One of the seven Endless, inconceivably powerful beings, Delirium is both lord and personification of all Delirium and Sanity, She had god-like powers and absolute power over her realm, which is a chaotic, constantly changing mass of colors and strange objects and shapes. She is capable of bringing sanity or madness to any and all within her scope.

Originally posted by shiv

In a forum Fight where Bloodlust is on and Responsibility is off, Dream Solos. He has all the creative force in our RL universe at his disposal.

imo I dont even.

thats just my opinion.

If I read through the series for a third time maybe my opinion will change.

Maybe it won't.

bump