Episode 34 - The Mandalore Plot

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Ordo
And so it begins...the nightmare I have been waiting for all season.

At least with the pre-screening in SF and the next edition of SW Insider, I'll be prepared for the carnage.

S_D_J
you think this story arc will be bad? no expression

ares834
It suposebly undoes Karen Traviss's work.

Ordo
Originally posted by S_D_J
you think this story arc will be bad? no expression

Bad is an understatement. I expect it to destroy what I love most about Star Wars.

S_D_J
Is it really that bad?

Originally posted by ares834
It suposebly undoes Karen Traviss's work.

How so?

I haven't really read any of Traviss' work, I now she centered mostly on Clone Troopers and Mandolarian heritage...

REXXXX
Which is what Ordo is solely focused on as a fan, and so he expects what he already knows well and enjoys to be viciously slaughtered.

However, I think Traviss can go die in a car fire, so we're on opposite ends of the spectrum and I hope this trilogy is good.

Ordo
Originally posted by REXXXX
However, I think Traviss can go die in a car fire, so we're on opposite ends of the spectrum and I hope this trilogy is good.

Well, for all SW purposes, shed dead and gone. As I've said before, she constructed exactly what I envisioned the Clone Wars as being. I dont like her as a person either, but I do think her books are the best thing to come out of Star Wars, save for maybe the films themselves. And since SW is all EU now anyway...

Its her work I respect.

I hope its good too, but rumors (some of which have factual basis) aren't really beacons of light in the darkness. Its more like a field of the carcasses of my favorite characters on pikes. I'm preparing for the worst; I have my duct tape, plastic sheeting, fresh water, and 3 cans of beans. I think its a more rational approach as opposed to going expecting Lucas to actually meet a standard not of technology or art, but of character. I do expect there to be some positive, at least the armor is on SOMEONE, and there have been clips of light, but overall it looks bleak.

I hope I'm wrong.

Originally posted by S_D_J
Mandolarian heritage...

*ding ding ding*

look at that. Mandalorian heritage during the Clone Wars. I wonder how that could be relevant to Mandalorians on a show called The Clone Wars?

Though, on the flipside, it might finally get *ahem* some people to stop denying the canonicity of Mandalorians. I'll have to wait and see what the show does before I take sides on the "Clone Wars Is Canon" argument though. I'm to going to box myself in to accepting osik as canon.

REXXXX
The whole argument there is that nobody actually says Mandalorian in the films, yes? Or claims to be one? Clone Wars can't trump the films but it seems like it has been put in a higher canon slot that the rest of EU.

Ordo
Yes, and some people didn't like my argument of an "unamed entity." This puts the word into context.

Hybris
I thought it was in one of the novelisations of the movies... At least I remember reading so, on some topic here.

On the other hand, there's no point in being glad because of the canonicity if that canonicity implies a totally different image of the things you want to see considered as canon.

And now somewhat off-topic: yesterday after my exam, I went looking for some cheap dvd's and books and guess what book caught my attention at the store?
Imperial Commando 501st by Karen Traviss. I open the book at a random page and which name do I see: Ordo. big grin

First the book, then this topic... It's the will of the Force!

S_D_J
I don't really know much about Mandolarians anyways (besides Boba, Jango and a few comics)

I say this season has been strong enough for the most part so I expect the tradition to continue...
erm

Ordo
I burst out laughnig in the promo when the announcer called Mandalorians "a peace loving people." I could just see the sarcasm dripping off of Filoni's lips. At least I know that they recognize that they have a public relations crisis/a fanbase they need to address.

The problem is this...and just like it was repeated multiple times at the end of the trailer.

DEATH WATCH

DEATH WATCH

DEATH WATCH

That and they didn't mention that the pretty art deco people are also "Mandalorians" (and I use the term loosely...traitors).

Props though for the bootstomp. Its nice to see Republic Commando references.

ares834
Originally posted by REXXXX
However, I think Traviss can go die in a car fire, so we're on opposite ends of the spectrum and I hope this trilogy is good.
Happy Dance
Well said!

Ordo
Anyone gotten ahold of todays edition of Star Wars insider? There is supposed to be an article on there on the Mandalorians.

Ordo
I dont know if there has ever been a plotline explored as deeply as the Mandalorians during the Clone Wars that are about to be overwritten by Lucas. This is a tragic loss for the EU and the very principle of Star Wars canon.

Here are some excepts from #116.

Originally posted by Dave Filoni
When George Lucas tells you what the Mandalorian planet looks like and what the buildings look like, and how it all operates, you have to say, "Well, he's a pretty good source for information! I should listen to this guy!

No. In fact you say "**** you. This has already been developed with your approval for the past 30 years."

Originally posted by Dave Filoni
Did you draw on any Expanded Universe sources when you cwere developing Mandalorians for this show?]

Not particularly.

Funny how they mention that it can fit in with The Old Republic because its 4000 years in the past and they are still trying to sell the game when it comes out next year, but they negate all the work that already covers Mandalorians in this period.

Originally posted by Dave Filoni
Given the weight of fan expectations, was it a difficult storyline to get right?]

I don't think it was difficult because we were working with George's expectations.

Which, given the prequels, must be spectacularly high. I hope the Mandalorians make fart noises.

Originally posted by Dave Filoni
Do we meet the expectations of the "Fandalorians" and the various groups that are immersed in that culture? We'll have to wait and see. I'm sure the episodes will raise some questions. And that makes it fun!

It'll be fun bashing in your skull with my beskar plated fist. You're not even going to appeal to fans? If you give a 5 year old a mud pie they think its great. Its not like they expect anymore quality out of TV. You're not a good salesman if you can give candy to children.

Watching what has been written for 30 years overwritten by the whim of a senile old filmaker who already has brought you to your limits with bad diologue, poor acting, and poop jokes is not fun. It is heartwrenching.

The sheer distaste the Lucas has for what the Mandalorians have become but just be astronomical.

Lucas rejected this plotline last season (it was the only one he rejected....seriously...Dooku Captured made it through before this? THATS bias.) Its pretty obvious when you cant even get the name of Hard Contact right (the article called it Hard Target) and lump all 4 of Traviss' RC books AND the videogame together as one "event" on the "History of the Mandalorians" timeline that you think it is an insignificant part of the plot. A whole page on the timeline was devoted to leaked concept art for these episodes. This is not just Traviss, as I know Rexx will come swooping in here. Some of this stuff (the capital of Mandalore and its terrain) were established back in 1980, before the Empire Karking Struck Back, and they are about to be overwritten. Its in Traviss' books but its also in many others detailing both the Clone Wars and other periods. The EU is all Star Wars has left. Thanks for proving its worthless, Lucas, and showing me that its not worth being a Star Wars fan, because eventually what you come to love will just be deleted.

Ms.Marvel
...or not.

who gives a shit if lucas thinks its canon or not... lucas isnt the authority on what is or isnt canon to the star wars universe, we are.

ares834
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
...or not.

who gives a shit if lucas thinks its canon or not... lucas isnt the authority on what is or isnt canon to the star wars universe, we are.
Umm. What?

And there is a black lightsaber in this show... Bah!

REXXXX
Where is there a black lightsaber? That will make me spectacularly sad...

Also, Ms.Marvel, we sadly do not. Lucas determines where things fall in canon as it is his creation. If he wants to overwrite something, he can. Doesn't mean we'll like it, as we can see Ordo completely does not... but Filoni can't really tell Lucas no or Lucas will just kill and replace him. I'd rather appease the Flanneled One than lose my job.

My distaste is only for Traviss herself, Ordo. I agree that is frustrating when higher canon overwrites some of the better EU stuff. It doesn't happen often, thankfully, whereas the EU turns things on their heads quite often.

Ms.Marvel
i dont think george lucas is going to send assassins into my house and kill me if i decide that the clone wars cartoon makes no sense among star wars continuity and therefore it isnt canon. i mean yeah no one will take me seriously at comic con if i make that statement or anything but my point is that as far as the fanbase is concerned just because the creator states something is canon doesnt mean we have to consider it such. in the comic book community events that are considered nonsensical or contradictory are classified as pis/cis etc. if in the next episode jar jar is depecicted laying waste to the jedi council in an epic lightsaber duel, neither i nor any of you have to then believe that jar jar is now superior the jedi council in lightsaber combat... it would make more sense to just assume that the writer who greenlighted that incident is an idiot, and it should be disregarded.

again obviously that doesnt hold true in an official manner or in a debate with rules like the kind that go on here where we must adhere to lucas idiotic canon, but theres nothing wrong with just saying that as far as you/i is/are concerned, jarjar soloing the council isnt canon.

... hope that made sense >.> stick out tongue

Peach
99% of the time, Lucas's approval of what goes on in the EU is glancing over the general story arc for a book series and nothing more. So older still will get overwritten on occasion. This is nothing new. I don't consider ANY EU to be canon, though, and have found that the vast majority of it isn't worth bothering with at all, though, so yeah.

I don't exactly understand the obsession with Mandalorians, anyway.

Also, black lightsabers should not exist. Ever. There is no way it ever looks good and it's just incredibly stupid.

Ushgarak
Go check the noted canon rule reminder threads in the other SW areas for the last word on canon, ms. marvel. It is not an area that we encourage discussion of due to the resulting arguments, so there is a general "don't debate how canon works, just follow the rules" edict in effect there.

Meanwhile, GL ALWAYS made it clear that anything any EU author ever did was at risk in case GL ever weanted to do the area himself. It has happened before (Boba Fett) and will happen again, and I have no issue with it. The EU Mandalorian thing is no great shakes anyway, and it is common knowledge that Traviss' stuff is abysmal.

This interpretation should be judged entirely on its own merits.

ares834
Originally posted by REXXXX
Where is there a black lightsaber? That will make me spectacularly sad...
Look and weep at what the Mandalorian uses...

Ordo
Originally posted by REXXXX
Where is there a black lightsaber? That will make me spectacularly sad...

Actually, there is hope on this one. From the images its clearly not a saber, it has a curved end. I think this is the appearance of the vibrosword.

Can be seen here.

Originally posted by REXXXX
I'd rather appease the Flanneled One than lose my job....

Haha. I would tell Lucas no over this. I'd try to convince him to drop the plot completely, as he did last time, or make sure it fits in with WELL established canon. But thats me, and since it woudl kill to be part of the creative team for this series, it would be a very hard decision.

Originally posted by REXXXX
I agree that is frustrating when higher canon overwrites some of the better EU stuff. It doesn't happen often, thankfully, whereas the EU turns things on their heads quite often.

No, it doesnt. I'm no where near the authroty on canon though, but since some of these thing extend back close to the origins of Star Wars itself (certianly to the origin of the Star Wars franchise with Empire), I think has has to be the most egregious example to date.

Lucas is deathstaring Mandalore. I just hope the Mandalorians dont go with it.

And this is where my rationality comes in. Unlike a lot of my Mando buddies, I dont care about these pacifist dar'manda "New Mandalorians" I think they can fit into the canon fine. Besides, if nothign else, it'll be fun wacthing the damn traitors get shot (though unfortuantely its by the Death Watch....can BOTH sides lose please?). If Lucas wants to scaffold around well establish facts, fine, but what ticks me off is the direct overwriting. Especially when it seem like the MOST sever problems can be solved now by one thing, change the planet from "Mandalore" to something else. Make it a cultural exodus to find a new home away from your past. It could fit in great with the plot. One simple word, but Lucas/Filoni wont do that.

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The EU Mandalorian thing is no great shakes anyway, and it is common knowledge that Traviss' stuff is abysmal.

No one I know thinks that. I guess there is always one. Having, unfortunately, read some of the other EU trash, I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what qualifies as abysmal.

It was so abysmal, it spawned organizations like the Mercs which have 200 members insane enough to have their own armor, let alone the other people like me who just participate. It was founded in 2007, after Traviss books. Coincidence? No. It spawned a language, something that has never been done in star wars. Mandalorians were brought back in KOTOR, in Legacy, now in Clone Wars. It must have sucked so horribly. Thats why she got 5 (/6) novels in her own personal Star Wars series, let alone the other ones she wrote.

So abysmal...

We all know you like stating your opinons as everyone elses, unfortuantely, for you, fact seems to point in the complete opposite direction. You're welcome to your opinon though, and I'd wish youd explain it instead of just of just attributing it to everyone.

ares834
Just to say it on most SW forums, such as The Force.Net and the Old Republic, KT's works are thought of as trash...

ares834
Originally posted by Ordo
Actually, there is hope on this one. From the images its clearly not a saber, it has a curved end. I think this is the appearance of the vibrosword.

Can be seen here.

Unfortuneately its a lightsaber...

S_D_J
Originally posted by ares834
Look and weep at what the Mandalorian uses...

Vibrosword?



I liked the preview...

This will be my first contact with Mandolarians and I think I'll like it

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Go check the noted canon rule reminder threads in the other SW areas for the last word on canon, ms. marvel. It is not an area that we encourage discussion of due to the resulting arguments, so there is a general "don't debate how cnaon works, just follow the rules" edict in effect there.



stick out tongue


edit- thats not a vibrosword guys. a vibrosword is made out of a metal. that weapon has a blade made out of some type of energy... ergo its a lightsaber or a real close equivelent.

it doesnt look ridiculous at all to me though. dunno what you guys are on about.

double edit- no... wait... it does look like a vibrosword if you go on Wookie... meh i dunno.

triple edit- ... theres a difference between a vibroblade and a vibrosword apaprently >>

Ordo
Originally posted by S_D_J
This will be my first contact with Mandolarians and I think I'll like it

You've never seen the movies? Played KOTOR?

And thsi is exactly wha Lucas is trying to achieve. Convince a bunch of children that Star Wars is actually like Y instead of X.

Originally posted by ares834
Just to say it on most SW forums, such as The Force.Net and the Old Republic, KT's works are thought of as trash...

More vague statements. Especailly when I've read a lot of those boards and there are just ad many supporters as detractors.

For being trash they certainly brought Mandalorians back to the forefront. There are plenty of circles in which they are also highly revered.

Originally posted by ares834
Unfortuneately its a lightsaber...
****

Well, we can add that to the pile of failures. I wont even begin to comment on the Mandalorian using a lightsaber thing.

This Friday is going to suck.

Ordo
If I can add one more beautiful nugget, its the fortune cookie for this episode.

"If you ignore the past, you jeopardize your future."

I dont know wether to laugh at the blatant ignorance or cry at the hypocrisy.

REXXXX
Sorry, Ordo, but you're the only one taking that train. I take each piece of Star Wars given us with a grain of salt; it all is just part of a big picture and overarching mythos. To narrow it down to Jedi or Mandalorians or starfighters is cutting out way too much of that big picture. I think this episode trilogy will be thoroughly enjoyable, especially because they've paid closer attention to it due to fan response to Mandalorian reinterpretation.

I also do not think that Traviss was resonsible for the Mandalorians showing up in a lot of other media; if anything, the clones showing up in AOTC was where it started. The language can be accredited to her, sure, but really... Ush is right, it is generally considered that Traviss is suckish. My real qualms are with how she responds to the fan base.

Last but not least, as per canon, Lucas has every right to alter his creation as he sees fit...

Peach
Originally posted by Ordo
No one I know thinks that. I guess there is always one. Having, unfortunately, read some of the other EU trash, I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what qualifies as abysmal.

It was so abysmal, it spawned organizations like the Mercs which have 200 members insane enough to have their own armor, let alone the other people like me who just participate. It was founded in 2007, after Traviss books. Coincidence? No. It spawned a language, something that has never been done in star wars. Mandalorians were brought back in KOTOR, in Legacy, now in Clone Wars. It must have sucked so horribly. Thats why she got 5 (/6) novels in her own personal Star Wars series, let alone the other ones she wrote.

So abysmal...

We all know you like stating your opinons as everyone elses, unfortuantely, for you, fact seems to point in the complete opposite direction. You're welcome to your opinon though, and I'd wish youd explain it instead of just of just attributing it to everyone.

Um. So since a tiny percentage of people think it's good, it must thus be awesome and the fact that popular opinion is that it's trash must be discounted?

All your "facts" show is that there's a few people who like it, nothing more.

Ordo

ares834
My problem with Traviss is her reaction to Sw fans.

When fans called her out on certain things such as vilifying the Jedi and the three million clone number she reacted in a terrible manner.

She accused us of being neo-nazis, for liking Jedi, explaining that the Jedi were just Nazis anyway and that they were a genetically superior master race.

She accused us of being misogynists for telling her that she had not done her research. Insinuating that we simply thought a woman couldn't understand Star Wars. In truth no Star Wars fan ever said no woman, just her.

The worst of all...

She compared us to terrorists, coining the phrase "Talifan" and hurling it at her detractors.

However, her Jedi Hate is also insane...



Genocide is just tops, isn't it? What was your guys' favorite part of Order 66? Mine was when the little kids get slaughtered.

Ordo
Hey. I've called her unprofessional, immature, and a b!tch. Thats not a message of support for her person. I've said shes wrong on the size of the clone army; the issue that brought about her meltdown. You have nothing on me there.

On the Jedi though, I think you're dead wrong. And I'm glad you're the first person here to actually articulate why you dont like her work. I'd love to go into more detail, but I simply dont have time tonight, so I'll start with this.

What made the RC videogame so great was that it reinvisioned what star wars would look like from a Clone's point of view. Its bulkier, grittier, and darker. War is more real, it has real consequences. You fight you get injured. You're enemies gut splatter in your face. You're alone against some badass machines.

Its not the pretty ligths, philosophy, and romantic scenescapes of the ever-infallable Jedi.

This is what inspird Traviss, and me. The movies are told from high society. The Jedi rub elbows with Senators, live in their vaulted temple, recite their dogma. Where do we see Jedi solving a problem peacefully (Other than Qui-Gon using the force to influnce watto's chance cube?). Not once in the prequels do we see a Jedi helping the poor (Qui-Gon giving extra money to Shmi was the one exception) (I guess this proves Qui-Gon is the only true Jedi in the prequels...and he died.). Not once do we see Jedi passionate about an issue (other than Anakin being in love).

What if we looked at it from a different perspective? From the bottom up and NOT the top down? This is how Traviss examines the Jedi and why her books are not only unique but gronudbreaking.

They Jedi betrayed everyhting they stood for and they got waxd for it. They stood by as a tyrant stayed years past his terms, eroded democracy. They fought, led a galactic WAR even though they are peacekeepers. They were deeply involved in politics, asking their own members to lie (Anakin). Even Kenobi wouldn't stick up for that decision. They rotted from the inside out.

And you want to talk about genocide?! How about USING a pre-paid army of genetically modified theirteen year olds? Humans grown, without rights, without citizenship, without a choice to fight. Sending them into battle, killing them. Don't clones die too? How many civilians died in this war? How many Geonosians? How many Wookiees? How many innocents when fragments of starships cam crashing down into planets? People die in war. Jedi included. They were in a position to stop it and they failed at their duty.

The ironic part is even the Clone Wars has brought up these issues. Anakin has no qualms using torture. Bariss questions their role as peacekeepers. The Lurmen challenge the Jedi's role in the war. Slick challenges Clone's rights, their choice to fight. The difference has been that Clone Wars has never sided against the Jedi, but Filoni has challenged them. Traviss has just accepted that same criticism and subsequently wrote this brilliant series that protrays what its like to be a human trapped in the middle of a farsical nightmare of a war. She looked form the bottom up and saw a different story of the same events, a complimentary story that adds an amazing depth to the Star Wars universe.

Traviss wrote novels that THINK. She looked at something in a new way, a way I have always wanted to see. Regardless of what an ignorant, hyperactive di'kut she is, she still came up with the most brilliant star wars story since the prequels, and the characters to boot. I feel the same way about her as I do Lucas, who also ACTIVELY insults his fans and is rather dense himself. But he gave us a story, a brilliant story, and the story is what counts.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Ordo
No one I know thinks that. I guess there is always one. Having, unfortunately, read some of the other EU trash, I think you have a gross misunderstanding of what qualifies as abysmal.

It was so abysmal, it spawned organizations like the Mercs which have 200 members insane enough to have their own armor, let alone the other people like me who just participate. It was founded in 2007, after Traviss books. Coincidence? No. It spawned a language, something that has never been done in star wars. Mandalorians were brought back in KOTOR, in Legacy, now in Clone Wars. It must have sucked so horribly. Thats why she got 5 (/6) novels in her own personal Star Wars series, let alone the other ones she wrote.

So abysmal...

We all know you like stating your opinons as everyone elses, unfortuantely, for you, fact seems to point in the complete opposite direction. You're welcome to your opinon though, and I'd wish youd explain it instead of just of just attributing it to everyone.

If you don't know that her work is gneerally considered abysmal by the EU community, you are simply showing ignorance of that community. I was not giving my opinion, I was reporting the general opinion. Personally, I couldn't give a damn about EU work, and even I heard about this storm- though every single fact and opinion she shows demonstrates the work of someone lacking in talent and insight. But to deny that this is the feeling is to stand against the tide. What this comes down to is everyone else having facts and right on their side, but you sticking your fingers in your ears and flatly saying "You are wrong" to everyone. As a result, I am taking action.

I am calling time on that debate as it is detracting from the thread. Ordo, you will just have to accept that no-one agrees with you (and indeed, you are objectively wrong). I am sure you do not like that judgment, but sorry- you will have to live with it. Take it to PM if you have any complaints. You spend far too much time arguing a lone position where no-one agrees with yoiu- you really must learn to take a hint. When a hundred people tell you you are dead, lie down. Rather than seeing yourself as some lone bastion of reason and common sense, you should consider the possibility that your ideas are wrong- and you also express your arguments poorly, and in a way that aggravates people.

Likewise, stop finding excuses to make your tiresomely unintelligent rants against the Jedi.

Bring this back to topic now. As I say, any judgment of the Mandalorians in this episode must stand on the episode's merits, NOT on any irrelevant material from the past- because all EU material is irrelevant in that sense.

That is a moderator judgment; do not debate it.

And ms. marvel, attacking GL's canon counts as well. Please do not do it; that sort of thing encourages canon arguments which is precisely what we want to avoid.

But as a final reminder- canon is canon. It's not good and it is not bad, it just IS. You cannot just take the best bits of something. Canon has to accept the ugly as well as the good. For better or worse, this IS GL's story. You can like bits of it or not like bits of it, but that is ALL you can do. You cannot pick and choose which parts are in the story or not, any more than you can choose which chapters of a novel are real or not; this idea of 'personal canon' is ridiculous. So it is nothing to do with worshipping GL- that insinuation is deeply unwelcome and insulting, considering the amount of considered debate there has been on his merits. It is simply about accepting the truth of the matter. ANd one of those truths that should have been accepted long ago is thayt GL considers the EU an alternative continuity (he even SAID so in interview) and when it comes to his own vision of SW<, he will overwrite it whenever he wants. It would be very odd for him to limit himself due to thre work of other authors whose ideas might have been totally different from GL's own, consdiering that GL is sovereign.

That's the rule, that's the way it is. Move on, folks.

-

I reckon there is a possibility that this will actually be a good episode. Whether it gets a fair hearing from some quarters is another matter.

REXXXX
I also wish to note that at no point did anyone say you were dumb, Ordo. You are entitled to your opinions and your preferences, it's just that when it comes to canon, as Ush has said, Lucas comes out on top against anything ever written for Star Wars. The only real permanence can be seen in the films, and even they have been subject to alterations.

I think we can let the Traviss issue lie. No need to keep dragging it out.

Still... what is with the black lightsaber? The Mandalorian mentions that his ancestors stole it from the Jedi way back when... but how far back are we talking? It looks completely unlike any lightsaber we've seen so far... perhaps an early prototype?

Shey Tapani
The whole thing is not such a huge deal.

Darca Nyl used lightsabers.

Its posssible but i dont want nonforesensitives running around with lightsabers.

The New Mandalorians can fit into cannon no problemo.

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I reckon there is a possibility that this will actually be a good episode. Whether it gets a fair hearing from some quarters is another matter.

If you think I want this episode to be bad you're nuts. I just refuse to suck on anything thats dropped in front of my face. I like to examine Star Wars critically.

I hate the Death Watch are going to be the characters I'm rooting for, but they will be portrayed more like Mandalorians are. The boot stomp shot is comming, something I've dreamed of seeing since it was in the Republic Commando trailer. We finally get to expand on Jangos fight sequence in AOTC, my favorite sequence in all of the films.

There is a lot I'm looking forward too, but its all integrated as part of the apocalypse.

Originally posted by REXXXX
Lucas comes out on top against anything ever written for Star Wars. The only real permanence can be seen in the films, and even they have been subject to alterations.

Except this series is still EU. Its not a film. Its not permenant. Some people just dont like to use critical thinking skills.

Originally posted by REXXXX
I think we can let the Traviss issue lie. No need to keep dragging it out.

A perfect time to end it, right when we get to the heart of the issue.

Originally posted by REXXXX
Still... what is with the black lightsaber? The Mandalorian mentions that his ancestors stole it from the Jedi way back when... but how far back are we talking? It looks completely unlike any lightsaber we've seen so far... perhaps an early prototype?

Its dumb, adding insult to injury. He said its from the old republic. I'd discuss that, but thats EU, which cannot be discussed in the EU forum, even when its relevant.

Amd all sorts of nonsensatives are running aorund with lightsabers now...so much for a weapon from a more civilised age.

Ushgarak
Well, the novels did say that they were once more widely used, which makes the non-sensitive use of it possible... then again, that was Alan Dean Foster and he wrote Splinter. Hmm.

Look, we are all agreed that the black sabre is not a great thing... but honestly, I don't think it is THAT big a deal. If that is as bad as things get, fine. I'd rather a black lightsabre than a Dooku Captured plot, and for once I hope that is something we can all agree on.

(For that matter, I'd rather a black lightsabre than the lightsabre resistant swords of KOTOR.)

Let's not get dragged into an Clone Wars canon debate, as that is a nightmare. Just in this particular instance, I feel we have to accept that ideas coming straight from GL have a certain increased credibility.

Hybris
+1

S_D_J
Originally posted by Ordo
You've never seen the movies? Played KOTOR?


Besides Jango (and by extension Boba and the clones) there's no more indication of Mandolarians in the movies, not even mention by name.

They both are presented as Bounty Hunters

I played KOTOR but that's 1000 years before the movies... a lot can change in that time. no to mention that is a pre-Clone Wars EU game.



That said, I don't really have a problem with the black lightsaber... it's sucky, but given how it's said to be an Old Republic weapon, I can see it slip by.

Ahsoka Tano makes a strong case against TCW canonicity anyways erm

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Let's not get dragged into an Clone Wars canon debate, as that is a nightmare. Just in this particular instance, I feel we have to accept that ideas coming straight from GL have a certain increased credibility.

Even George Lucas can not overcome 30 years of history. Most of the movies arent that old.

If there is a debate, there is a debate. You can't arbitaritly decide in this instance, there is no debate. I know why you are, but its a logical fallacy. Espeically since Lucas neither directed nor wrote this episode, just like he didn't any other. His creative imput is vague.

Originally posted by S_D_J
I played KOTOR but that's 1000 years before the movies... a lot can change in that time. no to mention that is a pre-Clone Wars EU game

Totally. The problem is not Kotor. The problem is 1. established continuity and 2. established continuity in this era.

2. Seems to be fine. This is where the majority of Traviss' work seems to be. She is a side issue that as we have seen is generally unrelated.

1. Is the problem.

For the record, I like Ahsoka. Even though she has a guys name.

Ushgarak
No, how long it has been there has nothing to do with it- just like Boba Fett. GL's word has that credibility regardless of how old any EU novel is. Age and establishment mean nothing compared to the 'word of God' in such an instance.

That is definitely how we will be treating things here, in any case. It's also the common sense viewpoint. We'll proceed on that basis.

REXXXX
Originally posted by Ordo
Even George Lucas can not overcome 30 years of history. Most of the movies arent that old.

Sure he can! Simple as that, whether any of us like it or not...

And I like Ahsoka too. She had moments of being kind of annoying in the first season, but I have had no complaints about her at all this time around.

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is definitely how we will be treating things here, in any case. It's also the common sense viewpoint. We'll proceed on that basis.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Let's not get dragged into an Clone Wars canon debate, as that is a nightmare.

<><><>

Originally posted by REXXXX
And I like Ahsoka too. She had moments of being kind of annoying in the first season, but I have had no complaints about her at all this time around.

I like that they are actually addressing what its like to be a Padawan. Frankly, I think she has to be a bit annoying. If shes not she never grows up. I think they've skirted the line of tolerability well.

Ordo

Ushgarak
Of course there has been lots of fan speculation. There is not the slightest point in denying that; the evidence is everywhere.

And he says that HE wanted (i.e. GL) to define their culture. Anyone else's definition is irrelevant to that; George wanted to do it himself.

Honestly, you are just repeating yourself. As ever- get used to the fact that the EU gets overwritten regularly.

Ordo
What defines fan speculation? Publication with the Star Wars name?

The EU has never been overwritten to this extent, I'm not a big EU fan, so I may not know. Can you provide antoher example where somethign so establshed was changed?

Even if you could, you can always consider one source an outlier. You make up your own mind.

Ushgarak
Of course it has; Boba Fett was a MUCH bigger overwrite than the Mandalorians, something few have heard of in comparison.

Splinter was utterly eradicated from continuity. 'Darth' applying to all Sith caused a desperate EU continuity re-write. Clonetroopers being on the Republic side messed up how the EU had interpreted 'Clone Wars'. Jabba the Hutt was a giant slug and not a standard biped, as the EU at the time had it. The list goes on. It's always been this way.

Meanwhile, plenty of EU books contradict each other also. It simply does not have that sort of firm continuity. That a pretty irrelevant minority have found some ideas about Mandalorians apparently cool changes nothing- and let's not forget, GL CREATED them. He's not taking someone else's idea and mashing it up. He's devleoping what his own idea was; interpretation form other people as to what that idea was may well have been simply erroneous.

And I am not even going to bother to asnwer your 'what defines fan speculation' question. Ask something sensible in future.

Ordo
I've consistently said the the EU contradicts and 1 time things get written over. Keldabe and the portrayal of mandalore are not one time things.

George is welcome to edit George's work. I think Boba was an excellent overwrite...and Han shooting second was not. However, that material is indisputably GL's, though I think it shows misjudgement. They are still one instance things.

And as to fan speculation, I think its obvious what it is, but you seem to disagree. I just asked for you to qualify...sorry.

Anyway, more press releases....and actually a positive one. Filoni has definately regained some of my respect. Full article can be found here.

<><><>

IGN TV: You've got a big event starting off this Friday. Can you talk a bit about bringing the Mandalorians into the fold?

Dave Filoni: If you're a Star Wars fan, you'll know what the Mandalorians are. If you are a casual fan, you'll just kinda think they look like a bunch of Boba Fetts. But it's a big deal to the fans who get into the lore. And it's something that's been much debated and written about in the Expanded Universe.

IGN: The Clone Wars's Mandalorians look very similar to Jango Fett, with the blue outfits. Did you debate a lot about their appearance? As you mentioned, the EU has done a lot of different interpretations.

Filoni: Mandalore is one of those cases where I really wanted a lot of input from George and was lucky that he was willing to give it. We had talked about making them white like the original supercommando Mandalorians were going to be in The Empire Strikes Back, but because of the clones we couldn't do that. It would be too confusing for the viewer. It was George who told us to make them silver, black and blue, much like Jango, so it kind of inferred that Jango's supercommando armor is pretty similar to the ones seen worn by the guys at almost the same time. We couldn't do the white paint scheme that was originally intended for them back in the 70's because of the clones.

IGN: Is it exciting for you, daunting, or maybe a mixture of both when you know you're going to introduce something that is definitely going to get a lot of people paying attention inside the fandom?

This is definitely what George Lucas thinks it should be, and I take all the appropriate information to him that's out there in the EU, and I say, "We should look at this, just so you're aware of it because we might contradict this if we do this." So we try to factor a lot of things in, but it can't restrict us from making the most complete vision of what he wanted possible. It's fun. Fans always react to everything we do differently. The Mandalorians are but one example of many, many different things that can be very micro or seem small to some people, but they're actually large.

IGN: Well, speaking of lightsaber blades, that's an excellent segue for me, because we have an exclusive clip running on IGN TV, featuring a very special lightsaber that is seen for the first time in Friday's episode.

Filoni: The Darksaber. That was a big deal. And again that was an idea that came straight from George. Originally what Pre Vizsla was carrying was something in the EU called a vibroblade; it's kind of an electric sword. George let me get away with it in the early phases of design and in the early shooting, but when the color came back and he was watching the lightsaber we want to have combating this vibroblade, he said there's no way that can happen; there's no way that a non-lightsaber could block a lightsaber. So he had us do away with the vibroblade in that episode really late in the game, and he created something called the Darksaber.

<><><>

Its good to know that Lucas is source for the pile of osik in this episode, from Keldabe, to Mandalore, to the di'kutla darksaber (which was supposed to be a vibrosword...hah!). I'm glad Filoni at least tried to stop him, and form the interview he really made clear that this was Lucas' vision...and not his lol. Nice back door out, but I still wish he would have put his foot down.

And if Lucas things that only a lightsaber can block another lightsaber...maybe he should revisit the Magna Guards in Revenge of the Sith...senile old idiot.

The only thing that makes me nervous in this is the armor. Is Lucas inferring that Jango is Death Watch?

REXXXX
I believe the MagnaGuard staffs were designed specifically to fight the Jedi and cost insane amounts of money in-universe each. It'd be kinda boring if the Mandalorians had them too. I think George just doesn't want sword-on-saber fighting. And I agree; it's really annoying to watch your lightsaber clack against a spear or staff or something in KOTOR rather than sizzle straight through it. Anti-lightsaber metals = worst invention ever.

Even so, might've just been a slip in Filoni's relay of that info.

Also, I think they're not inferring that about Jango. Just giving the Mandalorians a familiar look.

Ordo
I think vobrioswords are annoying too, but I'd rather have a vibrosword over a darksaber. And it least it keeps with the theme that electric things can block lightsabers (shields re TPM, staffs re ROTS).

The episode was exactly as I expected. There were a few bright points that were unexpected, but unfortunately they did little to coushin the impact of the blow.

My personal feelings aside, I didnt think the episode was anything but mediocre.

ares834
Not a bad episode. THe fact is it dosn't seem to contradict much. The two biggest retcons seem to be that Mandalore is not a tropical planet and there were three diffrent factions for Mandalorians instead of two: The New, the true, and the Death Watch.

Ordo
*facepalm* Its a bit mroe complex than that.

Besides..."True" weren't mentioned.

ares834
Originally posted by Ordo
*facepalm* Its a bit mroe complex than that.

No doubt it is. I have only Hard Contact though so I personnaly don't see what else it contradicted. Perhaps their simple nature... But one could easily say that is simply how the New Mandalorians lived and once they die of, which they will they return to their more simple lifestyle such as farming.

So. That dosn't mean they don't exist.

Ordo
It doesnt mean they do either.

ares834
But just because they didn't mention it dosn't mean they don't exist. Here is how I see it went. The Mandalorians became pacifist and exiled their warriors. However later on these exiles had another schisms becoming the True Mandalorians and the Death Watch. This is the Mandalorian Civil War. The fact is the episode does not contradict the existence of the True Mandalorians allowing them to still exist within the SW universe.

Ushgarak
Grievous' bodyguards' weapons only blocked sabres because of the electro energy stuff there- that is energy blokcing energy.

What GL didn't like was a physical object blocking a sabre. Your 'senile old idiot' comment just makes you look an idiot yourself, once more.

Ms.Marvel
gl is an idiot though.

Ushgarak
That's not a helpful post. If you want to attack him for a decision he has made, from Jar-Jar to Han shooting first, then do so in a relevant thread, but that was sheer mis-interpretaiton fuelled by bad will on Ordo's part and it is not welcome.

ares834
I thought the Episode was pretty good. Some moments in ot were just breath taking. When that one Mandalorian commited suicide it was shocking. Never expected it in a kids show and it is so reminiscent of the terrorist in the ME. Also the scene where Pre Vizsla shot that one mandalorian... just bad ass.

Ordo
Originally posted by ares834
But just because they didn't mention it dosn't mean they don't exist. Here is how I see it went. The Mandalorians became pacifist and exiled their warriors. However later on these exiles had another schisms becoming the True Mandalorians and the Death Watch. This is the Mandalorian Civil War. The fact is the episode does not contradict the existence of the True Mandalorians allowing them to still exist within the SW universe.

I dont disagree, however, since they are not mentioned, you can imply either that they do or do not exist.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Grievous' bodyguards' weapons only blocked sabres because of the electro energy stuff there- that is energy blokcing energy.

What GL didn't like was a physical object blocking a sabre. Your 'senile old idiot' comment just makes you look an idiot yourself, once more.
Please see:
Originally posted by Ordo
Originally what Pre Vizsla was carrying was something in the EU called a vibroblade; it's kind of an electric sword.

I dont even need to comment.

REXXXX
A vibrosword is not sheathed in electro energy. It is electrically powered so that it vibrates at a ridiculous level. So, different concepts. Vibroswords blocking lightsabers in the EU usually do so because of that cortosis weave concept that permeates Knights of the Old Republic.

Ordo
Lost my post. Yes that is dumb then. Not the impression I got form electric sword...which electrifying metal is an easy concept for them to have acheived anyway.

Apparently the weapons commando droids use are vibroswords though.

Samurai100
By the way the magnaguards staffs were made from a phrik alloy which is a lightsaber resistant metal

Ushgarak
Yes, vibroswords don't actually produce energy themselves, they are just electrically powered.

That phrik thing is pure speculation (sourced from earlier EU that there is no chance that GL had in mind in ROTS; I understand it is meant to be Death Star proof) that does not match how those things work. If you watch the staffs in action, they tend to block on the visibly energy-producing part.

I am actually rather pleased that GL shot that down- always such an irritating thing from KOTOR. Cortosis is one of the EU's poorer facets, but even the EU made out that is was too brittle to work as a weapon. KOTOR tried to chnage that into a 'weave', but that just led to ludicrous scenes of swords blocking sabres- and to what end? Having non-sabre melee weapons in KOTOR brought no benefit to it.

Seen the episode now. Not bad, though I feel they could have made more effort to capture Obi-Wan, seeing how easily he seems to take them on after that. The idea of shooting a sabre out of a Jedi's hand should be reserved for someone super-good, not just some Mandalorian grunt. If Jango couldn't do it...

But a fair set-up episode- in fact, the introduction of a neutral set of systems that actually threatens the Separatists is a good idea. I feel they should have explained that more- presumably the idea is that an alliance of neutral systems gives those who want out of the Republic an alternative from joining the Separatists, which basically means it costs the Separatists more than it costs the Republic, who would have lost those worlds anyway.

And for once, Dooku's plot to increase tension by getitng the Republic to move in peacekeeping forces is actually a clever one- more of this sort of thing please.

We'll see where this one heads. I have to say... the black lightsabre wasn't actually that bad. I think they did that as well as it could be done.

Ordo
The part that bucked me about the shooting it out of his hand wasnt the skill (these are supercommandos, they're going to have decent aim and thats just typical CW exaggeration), but that Obi-Wan wasn't injured. If the shot was damaging enough to make him let go of "his life," he didn't have any residual effects? Apparently only bad landings can take him down.

As to the Neutral systems. Its an interesting idea, that I like, but it confuses me a bit as to its members. I'll need to watch it again to get the full shot, but I definately saw the system represented by Giddeon Danu in ROTS, who I know was one of the main players in forming the Rebellion, at least per the deleted scenes. I'm confused to if they are "neutral," why Kalevala ("Mandalore"wink still have representation in the Senate. Also makes me wonder if Alderaan will be in there (which seems possible, given the above). I'm really pulling for Alderaan in this series.

And unfortunately I feel Dooku's plot will fail, as always.

S_D_J
I liked the episode. Not the best, but the action was great.

The Obi-Wan vs Pre Vizsla fight was done pretty well.

I was also bother by Obi-Wan getting his saber shot out of his hand, and not having any shown injury afterward. the black saber just came and went... and for once Dooku has somewhat of an intelligent plan (that doesn't involved Grievous, Ventress or Jabba's son)

looking forward to the next episode

Ushgarak
I know they are supercmmanods, but they are still the same people that Obi-Wan easily beat up later in the episode. You still need a contrast of quality.

Ordo
He beat up Visla, who was dumb to fight without his helmet.

I think the point is even one Mandalorian is dangerous, even if Kenobi can manage to be capable against a few.

Ushgarak
He beat up loads of them. AFter he is rescued he knocks out plenty without effort.

Like I say, if Jango couldn't do that to Obi-Wan or Mace, an unnamed trooper certainly should not be able to. It doesn't matter what type of troops they are. For the rest of the episode, the Mandalorians were shown as easily inferior to Obi-Wan; the point where the sabre was shot out of his hand was an aberration.

REXXXX
Now that I've watched it... geez, Kenobi beat them ALL up.

Ordo
Originally posted by Ushgarak
He beat up loads of them. AFter he is rescued he knocks out plenty without effort.

Like I say, if Jango couldn't do that to Obi-Wan or Mace, an unnamed trooper certainly should not be able to. It doesn't matter what type of troops they are. For the rest of the episode, the Mandalorians were shown as easily inferior to Obi-Wan; the point where the sabre was shot out of his hand was an aberration.

And, as you said...his capture. After a while abberations add up.

Ushgarak
Err... strange thing for you to say,. His capture was the same thing. That one scene was the aberration; it does not match any of the rest of it.

Ordo
Oh, the scene is an apperation now. Weren't there only 2 scenes where Kenobi fought the Mandos?

Robtard
Kenobi not instantly destroying the leader who went at him with a lightsabre was annoying to me. Sabre-dueling, it's just what Jedi do.

ares834
Originally posted by Robtard
Kenobi not instantly destroying the leader who went at him with a lightsabre was annoying to me. Sabre-dueling, it's just what Jedi do.
I got the impression he was toying with him. Afterall he punched and kicked the Mandalorian rather than struck him down with his saber...

Tsal Can
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I am actually rather pleased that GL shot that down- always such an irritating thing from KOTOR. Cortosis is one of the EU's poorer facets, but even the EU made out that is was too brittle to work as a weapon. KOTOR tried to chnage that into a 'weave', but that just led to ludicrous scenes of swords blocking sabres- and to what end? Having non-sabre melee weapons in KOTOR brought no benefit to it.

Blame Star Wars Obi-wan.

REXXXX
At first I wanted to ask what Kenobi did to deserve that comment, then I realized you meant the video game. stick out tongue

Dark Exile
Yep..
I wasnt really prepared for the black lightsaber...
Would have been nice if they explained it better. It just, looked weird, wasnt used to it. Maybe it will grow on me though.

Dark Exile
Originally posted by S_D_J

I played KOTOR but that's 1000 years before the movies... a lot can change in that time. no to mention that is a pre-Clone Wars EU game.


More like 4000 years before, but yes a lot can change. Look at the tech jump from episodes 1-3 to 4-6.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Ordo
Oh, the scene is an apperation now. Weren't there only 2 scenes where Kenobi fought the Mandos?

No. There is one brief fight where he loses, and then the entire rest of the episode where he completely dominates.

See, you often have this problem that you simply cannot make a logical analysis of something, which very badly affects your critical qualities.

I would very condfidently submit that the fact that the one moment where the commandos are good enough to shoot a sabre out of Obi-Wan's hand and capture him is completely at odds with everything else presented in the story is exceedingly obvious. This is simple dramatic inconsistency, and hence a valid comment. You can either claim that they are THAT good- in which case, how come he so easily beat them up for the rest of the sotrY? Or you can claim that they are not that good, in which case the sabre-shooting is very weird. These are the only two available choices.

It ia also obvious that the situation is the latter one- of course they are not THAT good, not just the faceless commandos. Basic rule of drama aside from anything else- they may be better than droids, but the hero protagonist is not going to have serious trouble unless outnumbered or fighting an enemy leader. This is how it will be. The sabre shooting will remain the odd thing out.

Honestly, you try to argue the most ridiculous things. Also, mockery works better when your position is not so obviously incrrect.

Ordo
Thats ok. I know recognizing evidenced arguments is difficult for some people. I dont really hold them to it. Its not their fault.

Anyway, in a series where a couple hits from a starfighter can destroy a cruiser, I tend to take the overexaggeration approach. Like most cartoons, when they good guys are winning, they are kicking butt. Then they are losing, they are getting their butts kicked. I think Clone Wars generally exemplifies that pretty well.

Its a simple dichotomy that makes it very easy for children to understand. It doesn't deal with grey areas or other pesky inconveniences that require thought.

S_D_J
Originally posted by Dark Exile
More like 4000 years before, but yes a lot can change. Look at the tech jump from episodes 1-3 to 4-6.

Who's counting? stick out tongue

Originally posted by Robtard
Kenobi not instantly destroying the leader who went at him with a lightsabre was annoying to me. Sabre-dueling, it's just what Jedi do.

He's not supposed to destroy them, but apprehend them

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Ordo
Thats ok. I know recognizing evidenced arguments is difficult for some people. I dont really hold them to it. Its not their fault.

Anyway, in a series where a couple hits from a starfighter can destroy a cruiser, I tend to take the overexaggeration approach. Like most cartoons, when they good guys are winning, they are kicking butt. Then they are losing, they are getting their butts kicked. I think Clone Wars generally exemplifies that pretty well.

Its a simple dichotomy that makes it very easy for children to understand. It doesn't deal with grey areas or other pesky inconveniences that require thought.

Looks like I missed this! Not much to miss of course; your first line is just meaningless drivel and then the rest is an irrelevant non sequitur (there is no logical link between it being a dichotomy and it being easy to understand; you need to understand how to use language better if you feel otherwise). Dramatic inconsistency is what it is and is a valid criticism for any fiction, for children or otherwise. Other Clone Wars episodes are not inconsistent in this way; they are not criticised for it. The ones that makes these errors, I will pick them up on it.

queeq
THe makers do seem to take the mickey out o SW lore and logic though... if there's any left.

Hybris
Originally posted by queeq
THe makers do seem to take the mickey out o SW lore and logic though... if there's any left.

There never was much anyway stick out tongue

queeq
Well, there was... but the more SW we got, the more diluted it got. Now it's all kinda messy.

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