Darkseid w/ ALE vs. Lucifer

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Eon Blue
Who takes it?

galactusischere
Lucy

Harbinger
Lucifer.

Omega Vision
Lucifer. Morpheus was able to defeat Anti-Life and Lucifer>Morpheus.

Allankles
I doubt Morpheus has fought Anti-life i.e. if you're referring to volume 1 of Sandman.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Allankles
I doubt Morpheus has fought Anti-life i.e. if you're referring to volume 1 of Sandman.
Well it never straight up said that it was the ALE but that's how I read it. The demon pretty much described it as the end of all things which ties into the ALE's nature (in some interpretations) as the Anti-Source.

Desaad
I don't think it was meant to be a literal take on Kirby's Anti Life Equation, but it fits pretty perfectly with Morrison's version.

Allankles
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Well it never straight up said that it was the ALE but that's how I read it. The demon pretty much described it as the end of all things which ties into the ALE's nature (in some interpretations) as the Anti-Source.

I think it was more a contest of wills and wit between Morpheus and that Duke of hell (forgot his name).

Morpheus had come to Lucifer and the other lords of hell, and they agreed not to interfere. Morpheus defeated him with wit and will, it wasn't really a power duel.

Superherovandal
Yeah it was a duel of who could outdo the other in a wit duel of sorts...

Endless Mike
Lucifer easily

Philosophía
Lucifer.

the ninjak
Lucifer

quanchi112
Not darkseid.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
Not darkseid.
Is it so hard to say Lucifer? Wait...of course it is. So Lucifer>Darkseid with ALE but not Thanos? Wow you think Thanos>Darkseid with ALE?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Is it so hard to say Lucifer? Wait...of course it is. So Lucifer>Darkseid with ALE but not Thanos? Wow you think Thanos>Darkseid with ALE? Yes, I think Thanos beats Darkseid with the ale as well. I don't see it working on either character.

Allankles
Too bad that DS doesn't need the ALE to mop the floor with the Titanian.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
Too bad that DS doesn't need the ALE to mop the floor with the Titanian. Ds needs a lot more than the ale. When he has Superman's number on his own you can come talk to me, k.

Oh, and it's just titan.

Allankles
He's from the planet Titan so Titanian. And you're forgetting the Omega Sanction - the death that is life, poor Thanos.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ds needs a lot more than the ale. When he has Superman's number on his own you can come talk to me, k.

Oh, and it's just titan.
Superman isn't Darkseid's superior as you seem to believe. He shouldn't even be his equal or even his near equal. Darkseid was (and according to FC is) at least skyfather. Writers just forgot that, sort of like Apocalypse losing to the X-Men or dodging a table.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
He's from the planet Titan so Titanian. And you're forgetting the Omega Sanction - the death that is life, poor Thanos. He's also called the man titan not the mad titanian. LOL.


Hyperbole. Worked on batman anyways not anyone near Thanos level. LOL.


See countdown 3, apokolips now, or hunter prey for more exciting information on how durable and formidable Dark is.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Superman isn't Darkseid's superior as you seem to believe. He shouldn't even be his equal or even his near equal. Darkseid was (and according to FC is) at least skyfather. Writers just forgot that, sort of like Apocalypse losing to the X-Men or dodging a table. We weren't shown it in fc. So we default back to classic seid which had some writers agree Superman is more powerful than Darkseid.

Supes has his number. Even in fc he beat him.

JakeTheBank
I agree writers have dropped the ball with Darkseid at times, considering how he's supposed to be the biggest threat to the mainstream DC Universe. I've personally always hated the idea of the avatar/clone/thanosi/doombot shtick. It's a lazy way to cop out of a story or to cover up a bad or low showing, imo.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
He's also called the man titan not the mad titanian. LOL.


Hyperbole. Worked on batman anyways not anyone near Thanos level. LOL.


See countdown 3, apokolips now, or hunter prey for more exciting information on how durable and formidable Dark is.

I know all that. One thing that would be amusing is seeing how useless Thanos shields would be against the reality altering Omega powers.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
I know all that. One thing that would be amusing is seeing how useless Thanos shields would be against the reality altering Omega powers. I'd love to see Darkseid fall short against them. heck, when the guy is capable of taking out Doomsday with his omega beams you pm me right away.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Allankles
I know all that. One thing that would be amusing is seeing how useless Thanos shields would be against the reality altering Omega powers.
Old school Omega Beams got to you no matter what, unless you were Firestorm. If Kirby had invested as much concern for Darkseid as Starlin had for Thanos he would have had a lot fewer low showings. And conversely if Starlin hadn't treated Thanos like such a Pygmalion he would have gotten slapped around a lot more.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Old school Omega Beams got to you no matter what, unless you were Firestorm. If Kirby had invested as much concern for Darkseid as Starlin had for Thanos he would have had a lot fewer low showings. And conversely if Starlin hadn't treated Thanos like such a Pygmalion he would have gotten slapped around a lot more. You only have dc to blame.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Old school Omega Beams got to you no matter what

Like sex with Kobe Bryant. It's gonna happen.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Like sex with Kobe Bryant. It's gonna happen.
Yep. If PC Superman couldn't outrun them what hope would Thanos have?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
You only have dc to blame.
I do blame DC. Darkseid dying in Final Crisis was the best thing that could happen to him as a character. I only hope that when the inevitable resurrection comes its both handled well (in a way that makes sense and doesn't seem like a flimsy excuse to bring back a cosmic villain in lieu of creating a new one from scratch) and done in such a way that it restores DS to his rightful place in the DC hierarchy as a JLA Bashing, Lords of Chaos-and-Order-threatening arch-villain who makes Superman's blood run cold just by staring at him. Grant Morrison decided on Batman killing him as an ironic end considering that his greatest qualm with how the character had been handled was that it seemed Batman could now beat him in a fight. Which in his words "is bullshit".

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
I'd love to see Darkseid fall short against them. heck, when the guy is capable of taking out Doomsday with his omega beams you pm me right away.

Yeah except that's not even what I'm talking about.

The Omega Sanction has no physical barriers as demonstrated when DS altered the reality of Mr Mircale's life while Miracle was inside a blackhole.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I do blame DC. Darkseid dying in Final Crisis was the best thing that could happen to him as a character. I only hope that when the inevitable resurrection comes its both handled well (in a way that makes sense and doesn't seem like a flimsy excuse to bring back a cosmic villain in lieu of creating a new one from scratch) and done in such a way that it restores DS to his rightful place in the DC hierarchy as a JLA Bashing, Lords of Chaos-and-Order-threatening arch-villain who makes Superman's blood run cold just by staring at him. Grant Morrison decided on Batman killing him as an ironic end considering that his greatest qualm with how the character had been handled was that it seemed Batman could now beat him in a fight. Which in his words "is bullshit". I think Superman at his core is more formidable than ds. The only way to change things is change ds altogether with competent writing.

Allankles
DS vs Superman dynamic is about the hero overcoming great odds. It's the classic David and Goliath relationship.

Against other gods and rivals DS is immense, but Superman is his David. And even still DS has gotten the better of him more times than the reverse in Post Crisis.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
I think Superman at his core is more formidable than ds. The only way to change things is change ds altogether with competent writing.
Explain how he is more formidable. I'm curious to know. Classic Darkseid's powers were>>>>Thanos and yet you think Superman has no chance against Thanos.
When has Superman done anything approaching this?
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-13.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-14.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-15.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-16.jpg
His spirit was strong enough so that even after his bodily death he was able to reach across universal barriers to manifest as an incredibly powerful construct in Earth 2 and beat a team of supervillains that could threaten the combined JSA.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
DS vs Superman dynamic is about the hero overcoming great odds. It's the classic David and Goliath relationship.

Against other gods and rivals DS is immense, but Superman is his David. And even still DS has gotten the better of him more times than the reverse in Post Crisis. No, he hasn't. Superman isn't the small weakling here. Jurgens claims Superman is more powerful than darkseid. darkseid's status, his influence, and his mind is what makes him scary while Superman's the one with more raw power at his disposal. I agree with jurgens on this matter. You're stuck in the past I am afraid.

galactusischere
Here's the thing, if you like DC more then you're probably going to side with DS, if you like Marvel more then your going to side with Thanos.
This has been argued and argued to no avail.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Explain how he is more formidable. I'm curious to know. Classic Darkseid's powers were>>>>Thanos and yet you think Superman has no chance against Thanos.
When has Superman done anything approaching this?
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-13.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-14.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-15.jpg
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh187/DarkseidRes/JLA184-16.jpg
His spirit was strong enough so that even after his bodily death he was able to reach across universal barriers to manifest as an incredibly powerful construct in Earth 2 and beat a team of supervillains that could threaten the combined JSA. Ancient history. Like I said darkseid used to be more formidable and what not, but recently he's a rival to Orion, Superman, and vastly inferior to someone like DD.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Lucifer with the greatest of ease

quanchi112
Originally posted by galactusischere
Here's the thing, if you like DC more then you're probably going to side with DS, if you like Marvel more then your going to side with Thanos.
This has been argued and argued to no avail. No, that's not true. thanos' showings are more impressive while darkseid's aren't. That's why you hear complaining about why this showing doesn't count and why this is pis. Thanos is just on a whole other level than Darkseid was. thanos gained more power as the years went on while darkseid lost more power/credibility as they went on.

galactusischere
That's why hes called Jobberseid

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
Ancient history. Like I said darkseid used to be more formidable and what not, but recently he's a rival to Orion, Superman, and vastly inferior to someone like DD.
You said at their core. I took that to mean at their most basic, earliest depictions. Superman's core is that of an incredibly powerful being who's the superhero's superhero but at his core Darkseid is the ultimate despot with powers that more than earn him the status of a God. And btw that wasn't that long ago, you've pulled up scans of Thanos doing stuff from earlier than that.

quanchi112
Originally posted by galactusischere
That's why hes called Jobberseid I agree.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You said at their core. I took that to mean at their most basic, earliest depictions. Superman's core is that of an incredibly powerful being who's the superhero's superhero but at his core Darkseid is the ultimate despot with powers that more than earn him the status of a God. And btw that wasn't that long ago, you've pulled up scans of Thanos doing stuff from earlier than that. Thanos has gotten more powerful though. So the bulk of Thanos' showings aren't back in the stone age. Even at his weakest he was pwning heroes like nothing. Darkseid has shown time and time again he can't beat Superman on his own anymore. It's a brutal war he doesn't seem to be able to win on his own.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree.

Thanos has gotten more powerful though. So the bulk of Thanos' showings aren't back in the stone age. Even at his weakest he was pwning heroes like nothing. Darkseid has shown time and time again he can't beat Superman on his own anymore. It's a brutal war he doesn't seem to be able to win on his own.
It can't hurt Superman's chances that most writers forget 95% of Darkseid's powers and think he only has the OE (which can be dodged or blocked facepalm nowadays) and his superstrength. Forget his teleportation, telepathy, matter manipulation, time travel, and low-level reality warping. Apparently Darkseid can only stand around and fire beams as if he's crosseyed, miss, and then let Superman slap him around. Don't you think if Darkseid had half of the competence and power he displayed under Kirby that Superman would be completely ****ed in a fight?

galactusischere
Yea DS should be easily able to take on Superman.

supremthor
Originally posted by Omega Vision
It can't hurt Superman's chances that most writers forget 95% of Darkseid's powers and think he only has the OE (which can be dodged or blocked facepalm nowadays) and his superstrength. Forget his teleportation, telepathy, matter manipulation, time travel, and low-level reality warping. Apparently Darkseid can only stand around and fire beams as if he's crosseyed, miss, and then let Superman slap him around. Don't you think if Darkseid had half of the competence and power he displayed under Kirby that Superman would be completely ****ed in a fight?

you should no by now that arguing with Quanch over thanos is like arguing with a death and blind person.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
It can't hurt Superman's chances that most writers forget 95% of Darkseid's powers and think he only has the OE (which can be dodged or blocked facepalm nowadays) and his superstrength. Forget his teleportation, telepathy, matter manipulation, time travel, and low-level reality warping. Apparently Darkseid can only stand around and fire beams as if he's crosseyed, miss, and then let Superman slap him around. Don't you think if Darkseid had half of the competence and power he displayed under Kirby that Superman would be completely ****ed in a fight? They don't forget them. You hype them up while most writers simply don't hold his powers as unstoppable as you do. This is what makes you a fanboy. You refuse to accept what the writers give us.

You're also singling out one writer which is another sign of bias. Originally posted by galactusischere
Yea DS should be easily able to take on Superman. I disagree. Dc maintains in the comics, cartoons, and videogames Superman is more than up the challenge here. It's just stubborn Darkseid fans refusing to accept reality.

Originally posted by supremthor
you should no by now that arguing with Quanch over thanos is like arguing with a death and blind person. Death? Come again?

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
They don't forget them. You hype them up while most writers simply don't hold his powers as unstoppable as you do. This is what makes you a fanboy. You refuse to accept what the writers give us.

You're also singling out one writer which is another sign of bias. I disagree.
I never said I wasn't a fanboy but me being a fanboy doesn't automatically throw out the fact that DS hasn't been written to his full potential for quite a while. You just try to convince everyone that Darkseid has always been ineffectual so that it helps your case in the neverending Thanos vs Darkseid debate just as you attempt to always underrate Superman (unless Darkseid is involved in which case you seem to think Superman is an omnipotent God) so that it helps your case in the never-ending Superman vs Thor debate. You have graduated levels of fanboyism that cause you to adopt these double-standards.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I never said I wasn't a fanboy but me being a fanboy doesn't automatically throw out the fact that DS hasn't been written to his full potential for quite a while. You just try to convince everyone that Darkseid has always been ineffectual so that it helps your case in the neverending Thanos vs Darkseid debate just as you attempt to always underrate Superman (unless Darkseid is involved in which case you seem to think Superman is an omnipotent God) so that it helps your case in the never-ending Superman vs Thor debate. You have graduated levels of fanboyism that cause you to adopt these double-standards. You are telling me you are a fanboy. His potential has obviously changed and you want to ignore the times it's changed and focus on 30 years ago.

I have a writer agreeing Superman is more powerful than darkseid. I am not alone in my views. Supes' feats just outshine his imo.


Thanos is simply beyond any of these heroes in a one on one type sceanario based on his history.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I never said I wasn't a fanboy but me being a fanboy doesn't automatically throw out the fact that DS hasn't been written to his full potential for quite a while. You just try to convince everyone that Darkseid has always been ineffectual so that it helps your case in the neverending Thanos vs Darkseid debate just as you attempt to always underrate Superman (unless Darkseid is involved in which case you seem to think Superman is an omnipotent God) so that it helps your case in the never-ending Superman vs Thor debate. You have graduated levels of fanboyism that cause you to adopt these double-standards.

The problem though Omega is Thanos isn't written very well all the time either. He doesn't often use his teleportation, Matter Manipulation, Magic, TK or TP in a fight. Often times it's blasting and punching just as you saw DS is relagated to. Difference is Thanos is much better than DS at blasting and punching and way better durability. Thus, doesn't have the losses to heroes that DS does, even when not using all of his abilities the vast majority of times.

quanchi112
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The problem though Omega is Thanos isn't written very well all the time either. He doesn't often use his teleportation, Matter Manipulation, Magic, TK or TP in a fight. Often times it's blasting and punching just as you saw DS is relagated to. Difference is Thanos is much better than DS at blasting and punching and way better durability. Thus, doesn't have the losses to heroes that DS does, even when not using all of his abilities the vast majority of times. Well said. The thing is most heroes/villains usually blast the majority of their appearances as opposed to show off their versatility or abilities. It's the nature of the game here.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The problem though Omega is Thanos isn't written very well all the time either. He doesn't often use his teleportation, Matter Manipulation, Magic, TK or TP in a fight. Often times it's blasting and punching just as you saw DS is relagated to. Difference is Thanos is much better than DS at blasting and punching and way better durability. Thus, doesn't have the losses to heroes that DS does, even when not using all of his abilities the vast majority of times.
Difference is that even when blasting the OE shouldn't be written just as heat vision that twists around corners. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? He shouldn't need anything but the OE to beat Superman. PC Superman could never find a way to dodge it and every time it hit him Darkseid accomplished what he desired, so why should a weaker Post Crisis Superman be able to dodge them or block them with heat vision?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Difference is that even when blasting the OE shouldn't be written just as heat vision that twists around corners. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? He shouldn't need anything but the OE to beat Superman. PC Superman could never find a way to dodge it and every time it hit him Darkseid accomplished what he desired, so why should a weaker Post Crisis Superman be able to dodge them or block them with heat vision? Yes, and you're trying to favor one interpretation and ignore the rest. That's pc Superman and things can change at any given moment let alone the fact this change has been maintained by different writers.

Allankles
Omega Vision is right about the OE Quan. When a writer uses it like it's heat vision or a disintergration beam they've missed the entire point about erasing a being from existence, which has nothing to do with physical force, but reality manipulation.

In one story it was stated that once he used the OE, even the victims closest relatives or friends forget that they ever existed, essentially they cease to ever have been - you get. It isn't a disintergration beam or even a heat beam.

What it means is that some writers (most get it) don't even know the character's most basic attack, leave alone Darkseid's exotic powers like the Omega Sanction. It's equivalent to having Supes' heat vision reduce heat.

Other than that as long as writers give good plot reasons why Supes survived the OE e.g. his importance to universal balance, there's no problem.

Batman-Prime
Stalemate

Allankles
And lastly if the issue is who's gotten the better of whom more times than the other, Darkseid has gotten the better of Supes more times than the reverse, even in Post Crisis (which is where they've had most of their encounters anyway).

If the issue is DS should swat Supes like a fly, that's not going to happen. Both because Superman is actually quite powerful, and because even if he has less power, there has to be some struggle in a comic. The only problem arises when the fight is unimpressive on most counts e.g. Apokolips Now, the only thing impressive about that fight was Supes speed in avoiding the beams.

In their first Post Crisis show down DS smashed and KO'd Superman and the entire JLA core to boot.

In their last 3 encounters before FC DS beat Supes, nearly killed him in one of those occasions before Big blue was saved by Miracle. So DS doesn't have a problem getting the best of him. When he gets challenged by Supes that's natural imo.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
Omega Vision is right about the OE Quan. When a writer uses it like it's heat vision or a disintergration beam they've missed the entire point about erasing a being from existence, which has nothing to do with physical force, but reality manipulation.

In one story it was stated that once he used the OE, even the victims closest relatives or friends forget that they ever existed, essentially they cease to ever have been - you get. It isn't a disintergration beam or even a heat beam.

What it means is that some writers (most get it) don't even know the character's most basic attack, leave alone Darkseid's exotic powers like the Omega Sanction. It's equivalent to having Supes' heat vision reduce heat.

Other than that as long as writers give good plot reasons why Supes survived the OE e.g. his importance to universal balance, there's no problem. No, he isn't. He's another biased fan who refuses to acknowledge certain showings and pretends Ds's omega beams are unbeatable which they are far from.

Most writers disagree while some(very few)do agree Seid is more formidable. All the showings count.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, he isn't. He's another biased fan who refuses to acknowledge certain showings and pretends Ds's omega beams are unbeatable which they are far from.

Most writers disagree while some(very few)do agree Seid is more formidable. All the showings count.

Right. The whole point of the OE is to erase beings from existence, disintergration has nothing to do with that. If your body gets disintergrated by a particle beam you don't cease to ever have been.

The OE is localized reality manipulation not a disintergration beam.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
Right. The whole point of the OE is to erase beings from existence, disintergration has nothing to do with that. If your body gets disintergrated by a particle beam you don't cease to ever have been.

The OE is localized reality manipulation not a disintergration beam. I can actually link an interview where a writer states he believes superman can resist it. He's also resisted it before in a new gods comic to which he stated something to the effect maybe no one ever tried before.

Well, it's failed against DD as well. More evidence for me.

Allankles
And most writers disagree with you since DS has gotten the better of Supes more times than the reverse (Post crisis btw) and this is coming from a huge Supes fan.

DS displays of power in Post Crisis are enough to tell you his power is on another level. He and Supes will have their battles, but it doesn't take away from the fact that writers depict DS like a god.

Do you honestly need someone to list the guys power displays? He can transfrom humans into beings like Stayne, and then give other gods the power over death. I mean the guy is always a skyfather or more in the New God titles.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
And most writers disagree with you since DS has gotten the better of Supes more times than the reverse (Post crisis btw) and this is coming from a huge Supes fan.

DS displays of power in Post Crisis are enough to tell you his power is on another level. He and Supes will have their battles, but it doesn't take away from the fact that writers depict DS like a god.

Do you honestly need someone to list the guys power displays? He can transfrom humans into beings like Stayne, and then give other gods the power over death. I mean the guy is always a skyfather or more in the New God titles. No, he hasn't. Recently they have been portrayed as equals with superman prevailing basically three times in the past 5 years. The rest have been basic stalemates.

Thor's also a god which means exactly what. Nothing. Just because you are a god doesn't mean you're more powerful than someone who isn't.

Yes, and in direct combat he's been killed/nearly killed by DD, Orion, and beaten into submission by Superman.


Him creating beings doesn't translate into combat effectiveness on his own.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
No, he isn't. He's another biased fan who refuses to acknowledge certain showings and pretends Ds's omega beams are unbeatable which they are far from.

Most writers disagree while some(very few)do agree Seid is more formidable. All the showings count.
Quan you're hardly what would be considered impartial so don't even try calling me biased. Being biased as all get out has never once stopped you from making horribly erroneous arguments predicated on personal beliefs and opinions and in utter contempt of logic and rationality.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I can actually link an interview where a writer states he believes superman can resist it. He's also resisted it before in a new gods comic to which he stated something to the effect maybe no one ever tried before.

Well, it's failed against DD as well. More evidence for me.
Who the **** cares what some hack thinks? There are maybe three or four writers that have ever done justice to the New Gods and not one of those writers would ever have Superman resisting the OE. A Superman writer isn't=a New Gods writer and if you actually read any appearance of Darkseid outside of a Superman comic or a major crossover you'd see there's a huge difference between the power he displays in New Gods titles and other more mainstream DC titles.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112

Him creating beings doesn't translate into combat effectiveness on his own.
Funny because you've used similar arguments to argue for the combat power of Mistress Death.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Funny because you've used similar arguments to argue for the combat power of Mistress Death. Defeating the walker. That's an example of how powerful she is. Next.

Allankles
But he beat Supes without any upgrades in their last encounter. If we're talking both recent history and all time Darkseid has the superior record over Supes.

I don't know why you want to pretend that a hero getting a few wins over the arch villain is evidence that they have the same power level. The reality is the Omega Force can do just about anything DS wants it to do, it's one of the most open power sets in comicdom.

And I personally don't mind Supes and DS brawling because a good story is based on conflict and writers care about the story not feats (at least the good ones).

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
Defeating the walker. That's an example of how powerful she is. Next.
I wasn't questioning Death's power, just your piss-poor attempts at supporting it with your double-standard debate style.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
But he beat Supes without any upgrades in their last encounter. If we're talking both recent history and all time Darkseid has the superior record over Supes.

I don't know why you want to pretend that a hero getting a few wins over the arch villain is evidence that they have the same power level. The reality is the Omega Force can do just about anything DS wants it to do, it's one of the most open power sets in comicdom.

And I personally don't mind Supes and DS brawling because a good story is based on conflict and writers care about the story not feats (at least the good ones). What last encounter?

Jurgens believes Superman is more powerful than darkseid. based on his history and how they stack up against one another why would I think otherwise anymore.

You have to prove it. You keep restating hyperbole over and over again which doesn't make an argument persuasive at all.

Allankles
As far as DS goes the OE is more than capable of taking down anybody skyfather and below. It's not like DS hasn't bested teams of heroes and other skyfathers in his time.

Hell he's even critically wounded beings that are above skyfather with mere energy beams like Imperiex.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I wasn't questioning Death's power, just your piss-poor attempts at supporting it with your double-standard debate style. false. Seid has been beaten by far less than the Walker. making my rationale about seid perfectly acceptable. DD curbed him. A brick beat him to death(almost()in a few panels. Death easily defeated the walker.

Originally posted by Allankles
As far as DS goes the OE is more than capable of taking down anybody skyfather and below. It's not like DS hasn't bested teams of heroes and other skyfathers in his time.

Hell he's even critically wounded beings that are above skyfather with mere energy beams like Imperiex. Give some examples. You keep speaking in hyperbole and generalizations.

Context. If Darkseid were all that was needed to critically injure Imperiex then you obviously didn't grasp the story.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
What last encounter?

Jurgens believes Superman is more powerful than darkseid. based on his history and how they stack up against one another why would I think otherwise anymore.

You have to prove it. You keep restating hyperbole over and over again which doesn't make an argument persuasive at all.

DS drops Supes in Countdown no, with a little matter manip/energy manip on Jimmy? Before Countdown FC DS is killing Supes with his shadow demons is he not, by Supes own admission? Supes acknowledges that he has again underestimated DS' power. Miracle saves him from death with the ALE there.

Before then DS puts Supes down during a scuffle in OWAW no? Then in New Gods v3 when Supes had a feat he got bested and DS wasn't even trying to kill him.

Then before that he was bested in Confidential, twice. Then before then he was defeated clean in Generations. Before then he and the JLA were defeated and it was acknowledged by Flash in another story. Before then DS ko's him and the entire JLA core in Super Powers all of this in Post crisis.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112

Context. If Darkseid were all that was needed to critically injure Imperiex then you obviously didn't grasp the story.

It was the crtical ingridient. His simple bare bones energy beams at that, to bust Imperiex armor while he was sitting in another dimension on Apokolips.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
DS drops Supes in Countdown no, with a little matter manip/energy manip on Jimmy? Before Countdown FC DS is killing Supes with his shadow demons is he not, by Supes own admission? Supes acknowledges that he has again underestimated DS' power. Miracle saves him from death with the ALE there.

Before then DS puts Supes down during a scuffle in OWAW no? Then in New Gods v3 when Supes had a feat he got bested and DS wasn't even trying to kill him.

Then before that he was bested in Confidential, twice. Then before then he was defeated clean in Generations. Before then he and the JLA were defeated and it was acknowledged by Flash in another story. Before then DS ko's him and the entire JLA core in Super Powers all of this in Post crisis. He needed jimmy and k-nite to beat him. This actually proves on his own even he thinks he needs help.

Shadow demons are not ds just like his army isn't proof of darkseid being able to beat you. They are his minions/weapons not what he has shown to do under his own power in a forum fight.

ds talked to him after Bakac racer ko'd him and Supes broke free. Holding someone while explaining your plans isn't a victory. They stalemated at the end of owaw.

Confidential was ages ago. Back in the day ds was above him not anymore as even your examples shows us.

KuRuPT Thanosi
The thing is Allan... Thanos even with his encounters with heroes is still portrayed as superior. Heroes at marvel like Thor, SS etc etc have the same jobber aura that the heroes do at DC. The difference is Thanos still comes out out top regardless. We can't say the same for seid

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
It was the crtical ingridient. His simple bare bones energy beams at that, to bust Imperiex armor while he was sitting in another dimension on Apokolips. With all the effort this helped. Ds alone against Imperiex he gets crushed. That's the point. With prep and the forces allied together of course they were going to eventually beat the threat.Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The thing is Allan... Thanos even with his encounters with heroes is still portrayed as superior. Heroes at marvel like Thor, SS etc etc have the same jobber aura that the heroes do at DC. The difference is Thanos still comes out out top regardless. We can't say the same for seid Exactly.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
He needed jimmy and k-nite to beat him. This actually proves on his own even he thinks he needs help.

Shadow demons are not ds just like his army isn't proof of darkseid being able to beat you. They are his minions/weapons not what he has shown to do under his own power in a forum fight.

ds talked to him after Bakac racer ko'd him and Supes broke free. Holding someone while explaining your plans isn't a victory. They stalemated at the end of owaw.

Confidential was ages ago. Back in the day ds was above him not anymore as even your examples shows us.

The shadow demons were part of the Omega Force, DS had acquired the power as weapon I'm guessing from the negative matter universe, so that was him. DS had made them a part of him, unlike Parademons.

Jimmy was not K-Nite, or did you miss the fact that DS manipulated the powers in Jimmy to create that radiation. And the only reason DS did that was because, he had no time to waste on Supes.

And DS did best him in OWAW, they had a brawl and DS subdued him, he didn't want to hurt Supes anyway and went through the trouble of actually trying to restrin him without hurting him.

You asked for Post Crisis Confidential is a very Post Crisis story having been published 5 or so years ago.

So what about his team busting of Supes and the JLA on at least two occasions in Post Crisis? Nothing to comment there. The same excuses Quan, are you ever going to change?

Allankles
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The thing is Allan... Thanos even with his encounters with heroes is still portrayed as superior. Heroes at marvel like Thor, SS etc etc have the same jobber aura that the heroes do at DC. The difference is Thanos still comes out out top regardless. We can't say the same for seid

Except DS has more victories over heroes than Thanos. He's used more and has had more victories. From defeating the Green Lanterns, to other pantheons, to heroes, to New Genesis, he's run through just about every major hero fanction in the main stream.

His lossess come with the territory he's a villain and besides that he couldn't rely on artifacts of power. Thanos hasn't actually been through the number of do or die scenarios DS has been in.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
The shadow demons were part of the Omega Force, DS had acquired the power as weapon I'm guessing from the negative matter universe, so that was him. DS had made them a part of him, unlike Parademons.

Jimmy was not K-Nite, or did you miss the fact that DS manipulated the powers in Jimmy to create that radiation. And the only reason DS did that was because, he had no time to waste on Supes.

And DS did best him in OWAW, they had a brawl and DS subdued him, he didn't want to hurt Supes anyway and went through the trouble of actually trying to restrin him without hurting him.

You asked for Post Crisis Confidential is a very Post Crisis story having been published 5 or so years ago.

So what about his team busting of Supes and the JLA on at least two occasions in Post Crisis? Nothing to comment there. The same excuses Quan, are you ever going to change? No, they were on his home planet as an option but we don't see ds throwing shadow demons around off his planet. We've seen ds struggle with Superman and lose without his shadow demons which aren't an option.

It was knite which defeated Superman. he set off Jimmy because of the powers inside him to defeat Superman. He couldn't beat him on his own. Way to actually argue for Superman there.

He didn't beat him. Supes broke free. That's misinterpreting what actually happened in the comic saying it was a victory for Ds.

Confidential refers to one of their first meetings not a recent one. Nice try. It doesn't matter when it was published.

What issue did he bust up the team? I bet you are misinterpreting yet again.


Superman/Batman,Superman 800 something when he bfr's them all in one issue, apokolips now.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
Except DS has more victories over heroes than Thanos. He's used more and has had more victories. From defeating the Green Lanterns, to other pantheons, to heroes, to New Genesis, he's run through just about every major hero fanction in the main stream.

His lossess come with the territory he's a villain and besides that he couldn't rely on artifacts of power. Thanos hasn't actually been through the number of do or die scenarios DS has been in. Ds has been shown up by Raker, beaten to a pulp by DD, killed by Orion, utterly crushed by Superman, etc.

Thanos has faced far more powerful characters than these and not been defeated as badly as Ds. Your arguments are paper thin.

Tyrant, Odin, Maker, Thor with the power gem are all greater than DD, Raker, Orion, and superman.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112

Superman/Batman,Superman 800 something when he bfr's them all in one issue, apokolips now.
Superman bfring Darkseid and his lackies is as much evidence that Superman is more powerful than Darkseid as Batman judo tossing Wonder Woman is evidence of Batman being more powerful than Diana. Don't even try that shit.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Superman bfring Darkseid and his lackies is as much evidence that Superman is more powerful than Darkseid as Batman judo tossing Wonder Woman is evidence of Batman being more powerful than Diana. Don't even try that shit. Darkseid's bfr'd superman before. Supes doing so along with his entourage proves how Superman can get stuff done regardless of the situation.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
Darkseid's bfr'd superman before. Supes doing so along with his entourage proves how Superman can get stuff done regardless of the situation.
Regardless of the situation?
Defeating someone and bfring someone are completely different. What he did to Darkseid caused DS no harm whatsoever. It like Batman judo tossing Wonder Woman or Thanos blasting Galactus. They're inconveniences but do nothing to harm said more powerful individuals and can't be counted as battle victories.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Regardless of the situation?
Defeating someone and bfring someone are completely different. What he did to Darkseid caused DS no harm whatsoever. It like Batman judo tossing Wonder Woman or Thanos blasting Galactus. They're inconveniences but do nothing to harm said more powerful individuals and can't be counted as battle victories. He needed ds and his yes men off the planet. Superman did it without even breaking a sweat.

Supes also beat him into submission. laughing out loud

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
He needed ds and his yes men off the planet. Superman did it without even breaking a sweat.

Supes also beat him into submission. laughing out loud
Referring to that crap AN again? For the one time that has happened Darkseid has beaten or zapped Superman into submission many more times.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Referring to that crap AN again? For the one time that has happened Darkseid has beaten or zapped Superman into submission many more times. It's canon. Keep ignoring superman crushing him it won't change things.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Well see, me and Quan disagree on this point. I believe DS to be superman's superior in most ways.. sans speed, durability to same a few. I do believe Seid falls victim to certain heroes aura's at times. No issue there. My only contention is that Thanos faces the same heroes and is still portrayed as their superior pretty much all the time. He even faces stronger foes and isn't put down. Point being, Thanos doesn't have the losing record DS does and that is just a plain fact.

quanchi112
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Well see, me and Quan disagree on this point. I believe DS to be superman's superior in most ways.. sans speed, durability to same a few. I do believe Seid falls victim to certain heroes aura's at times. No issue there. My only contention is that Thanos faces the same heroes and is still portrayed as their superior pretty much all the time. He even faces stronger foes and isn't put down. Point being, Thanos doesn't have the losing record DS does and that is just a plain fact. Superman's proven more than once to be an equal if not superior to Ds in terms of a fight.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
Superman's proven more than once to be an equal if not superior to Ds in terms of a fight.
Even in the fights where Superman wins its clear he only wins due to sheer determination and luck. What part of David and Goliath don't you understand?

quanchi112
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Even in the fights where Superman wins its clear he only wins due to sheer determination and luck. What part of David and Goliath don't you understand? What writer ever compared these two to them?

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
Tyrant, Odin, Maker, Thor with the power gem are all greater than DD, Raker, Orion, and superman.

True. But DS has victories over those names, unlike Thanos (with the exception of Maker) And he has victories over skyfathers like Highfather, Mordu and Time Trapper on top of those heroes. Not to mention defeating the Olympian gods, and other 3rd world gods/pantheons on Earth and the universe at large.

In DC it is stated that all other gods are a shadow of the power of even the least of the New Gods. A race where the average is creating your own universe, so powerwise DS is up there. Add all his creation feats and reality warping feats and it's easy to see why the guy is the most feared despot in the multiverse.

New Genesis is the only reason Apokolips doesn't run rough shod over most of the multiverse. When you have enemies that can create devices like the Genesis Box, victory is hard to achieve.

You don't seem to get that DS is right up there in the cosmic hierachy. Obviously Thanos isn't as high in his universe's hierachy.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by quanchi112
What writer ever compared these two to them?
No one in particular but its clear that every time Superman fights Darkseid he takes it more seriously than his fights with guys like Lobo or even Brainiac. There's always a sense of urgency. No villain makes Superman more nervous than Darkseid, he's like Superman's R'as Al Ghul. He may not be the most famous or recurring foe (as Joker is to Batman and Lex Luthor is to Superman) but he is the most dangerous (as R'as Al Ghul is to Batman).
The idea that Superman is Darkseid's superior in terms of power is pure comedy, even saying they are equals is a laugh and a half. If you focus on more than just the last six or so years you'll see that more often than not Darkseid bests if not straight up mops the floor with Superman.

ares834
Originally posted by quanchi112
It's canon. Keep ignoring superman crushing him it won't change things.
So Squirrel Girl crushed Thanos. eek!

Also DS is far superior to Superman.

Mindset
Squirrel Girl would crush all DC.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Mindset
Squirrel Girl would crush all DC.
Only because Batman is dea--I mean taking a nap right now.

Mindset
Squirrel Girl would resurrect him then erase him from existence.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by Mindset
Squirrel Girl would resurrect him then erase him from existence.
But in waking him from his slumber she would be hit by the Bat-yawn which even the Presence fears.

Mindset
Good thing SG > Presence.

ares834
Originally posted by Mindset
Squirrel Girl would resurrect him then erase him from existence.
mad The Batgod would take her down...

Mindset
Good one.

ares834
Originally posted by Mindset
Good one.
Of course. Would you expect anything less from me? wink

Mindset
Yes.

ares834
Originally posted by Mindset
Yes.
sad

Mindset
lol

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
True. But DS has victories over those names, unlike Thanos (with the exception of Maker) And he has victories over skyfathers like Highfather, Mordu and Time Trapper on top of those heroes. Not to mention defeating the Olympian gods, and other 3rd world gods/pantheons on Earth and the universe at large.

In DC it is stated that all other gods are a shadow of the power of even the least of the New Gods. A race where the average is creating your own universe, so powerwise DS is up there. Add all his creation feats and reality warping feats and it's easy to see why the guy is the most feared despot in the multiverse.

New Genesis is the only reason Apokolips doesn't run rough shod over most of the multiverse. When you have enemies that can create devices like the Genesis Box, victory is hard to achieve.

You don't seem to get that DS is right up there in the cosmic hierachy. Obviously Thanos isn't as high in his universe's hierachy. What? Ds has wins over top tiers while Thanos took on guys who mop the floor with the top tiers with an attack or two. That's the difference of the playing field here.


Guys like Superman aren't even to even make Thanos work for it while characters like Tyrant and odin had to work for it and they still didn't ko or beat him preupgrade.

Hyperbole. Odin's also stated as omnipotent. Get back to me when you actually have anything other than fancy window dressing.


yeah, because we didn't see DD completely crush apokolips best forces and steamroll through their tech. using one showing of a genesis box and ignoring the other times when ds had to team up to stop an actual threat is typical of you.

False. Ds is in Superman's league while Thanos is above them both. Ds is DD's whipping boy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
No one in particular but its clear that every time Superman fights Darkseid he takes it more seriously than his fights with guys like Lobo or even Brainiac. There's always a sense of urgency. No villain makes Superman more nervous than Darkseid, he's like Superman's R'as Al Ghul. He may not be the most famous or recurring foe (as Joker is to Batman and Lex Luthor is to Superman) but he is the most dangerous (as R'as Al Ghul is to Batman).
The idea that Superman is Darkseid's superior in terms of power is pure comedy, even saying they are equals is a laugh and a half. If you focus on more than just the last six or so years you'll see that more often than not Darkseid bests if not straight up mops the floor with Superman. Well, a writer shared this opinion with me. You just post your own ignoring Ds couldn't beat Superman on his own in countdown.

Superman doesn't treat Ds like a big threat. He wouldn't have easily bfr'd him with his boys in a single issue if he was some awesome villain now would he?


I'll leave you to your delusions now.

Originally posted by ares834
So Squirrel Girl crushed Thanos. eek!

Also DS is far superior to Superman. Not canon. Sg's undefeated and would crush Superman anyways.

Batman-Prime
I wonder who those ueber beings are that Thanos defeated without artefacts or amps? DEFEATED.

DS on the other hand, go to his Respect Thread made by -KM- (da man), it's awesome. I didn't knew how badass Thanos really is. In raw power far above Thanos.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Too bad Thanos doesn't have the losses DS does eh?

Eon Blue
My beautiful thread in shambles...

*tear*

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
What? Ds has wins over top tiers while Thanos took on guys who mop the floor with the top tiers with an attack or two. That's the difference of the playing field here.


Ye! And Thanos has never beaten any of them. Meanwhile Darkseid, while old and weakened defeats two skyfathers and depowers them, big difference indeed.

It also doesn't help your case that DS destroyed multiple pantheons in the millenia he was alive. Really, there shouldn't be anything to debate. DS actually defeats skyfathers under his own power, Thanos doesn't.

Allankles
Originally posted by Eon Blue
My beautiful thread in shambles...

*tear*

stick out tongue On the bright side we're debating DS, can't go wrong there.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I wonder who those ueber beings are that Thanos defeated without artefacts or amps? DEFEATED.

DS on the other hand, go to his Respect Thread made by -KM- (da man), it's awesome. I didn't knew how badass Thanos really is. In raw power far above Thanos. Maker, the Surfer, power gem Thor. Which feats are awesome of ds's? Please name one instead of speaking in generalizations.Originally posted by Allankles
Ye! And Thanos has never beaten any of them. Meanwhile Darkseid, while old and weakened defeats two skyfathers and depowers them, big difference indeed.

It also doesn't help your case that DS destroyed multiple pantheons in the millenia he was alive. Really, there shouldn't be anything to debate. DS actually defeats skyfathers under his own power, Thanos doesn't. They didn't defeat Thanos either. Characters such as Superman don't even pose a threat to Thanos just uxas.

Which skyfathers did he depower?

Off panel you mean. Oh yeah that's really showing me.

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