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High heralds vs 4 Mid heralds.

Can the high heralds win?

Considering that Black Adam, Captain Marvel, and to a slightly lesser degree Wonder Woman, can handle each of the high heralds by themselves for a prolonged period of time, I'd say the mid heralds have a good chance of winning.

Team 1 wins. WW is the weak link here.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Team 1 wins. WW is the weak link here.

How so? Between her comparable physical stats, skills, standard equipment, I can't see how she's the "weak link" to the point of being the reason why her team loses. I'd say Team 2 is solid as is.

I too think team two should take this a lot of the time. Wonder Woman and CM have both, on multiple occasions, stalemated Superman. What happens is you have the three meleers each stall a member of team one, then Firelord joins in and it snowballs.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How so? Between her comparable physical stats, skills, standard equipment, I can't see how she's the "weak link" to the point of being the reason why her team loses. I'd say Team 2 is solid as is. Anyone from team 1 beats her. They can do it quickly too due to her durability and weaker strength.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Anyone from team 1 beats her. They can do it quickly too due to her durability and weaker strength.

No, they really can't. Her strength is reasonably close to theirs. Her durability is in the same league. Less against blades, but still, she's really tough and has a healing factor, and none of them have blades. Plus she has her bracers which makes her, defensively, one of the top two on the field, and only Thor might be in her HtH skill league.

Want to see Superman trying to take her out fast with everything he's got? Read Sacrifice.


Her fight with Captain Marvel back in war of the gods? Draw, they were even in strength. Her fights with Superman? Generally draws. Superman eventually beats her unless he makes a mistake, but it's a long painful process.

Team two 8-9/10

Originally posted by Q99
No, they really can't. Her strength is reasonably close to theirs. Her durability is in the same league. Less against blades, but still, she's really tough and has a healing factor, and none of them have blades. Plus she has her bracers which makes her, defensively, one of the top two on the field, and only Thor might be in her HtH skill league.

Want to see Superman trying to take her out fast with everything he's got? Read Sacrifice.


Her fight with Captain Marvel back in war of the gods? Draw, they were even in strength. Her fights with Superman? Generally draws. Superman eventually beats her unless he makes a mistake, but it's a long painful process. Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.

Teah, anyone on team 1 has the goods to beat her and soundly imo.

To powerful, more durable, and stronger than her.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.

Teah, anyone on team 1 has the goods to beat her and soundly imo.

To powerful, more durable, and stronger than her.

How is it not impressive? Considering that Superman was enraged and bloodlusted, Diana surviving, let alone being able to damage Superman is impressive. Their intent was completely different from each other. Superman, thinking she was DD and had killed Lois, wanted nothing more than to put her out of his misery. Conversely, Diana was putting enough effort forth to survive and try and stop Lord from controlling him. If she wanted to kill him, she could have with her tiara.

No one is arguing that Diana beats anyone on team 1 for a majority, but she's more than capable of holding her own and being a serious threat in the the process. It all depends on how goes after WW, in my opinion anyway. The only really bad match for her is Surfer, and even then, not to the point that she's useless.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.

Teah, anyone on team 1 has the goods to beat her and soundly imo.

To powerful, more durable, and stronger than her.

Quan, you cant accept one thing and not accept the other.

She defeated Superman twice in that comic. The first time was when they were fighting and she whipped that a** and flew off to max lord because she didnt want to kill Superman (and she admitted that she was holding back) and the second time was when Superman flew to aid max lord and she used her superior reflexes, snatched her tiara off and cut Supermans throat before he had the time to react.

Now if you are calling THAT fight pis or saying that THATS not a showing that Wonder Woman can defeat Superman then you need to accept it when people say that Thanos didnt hold his own against odin then since Wonder Woman showing against Supes is more obvious than Thanos showing against Odin.

You cant accept one without the other.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it not impressive? Considering that Superman was enraged and bloodlusted, Diana surviving, let alone being able to damage Superman is impressive. Their intent was completely different from each other. Superman, thinking she was DD and had killed Lois, wanted nothing more than to put her out of his misery. Conversely, Diana was putting enough effort forth to survive and try and stop Lord from controlling him. If she wanted to kill him, she could have with her tiara.

No one is arguing that Diana beats anyone on team 1 for a majority, but she's more than capable of holding her own and being a serious threat in the the process. It all depends on how goes after WW, in my opinion anyway. The only really bad match for her is Surfer, and even then, not to the point that she's useless.

Quan is the only one that feels like this (beside a couple of other Superman fans, dont want to say any names) and thats because he doesnt like Wonder Woman.

He would never give her credit, even if she defeated Supes a second time.

Originally posted by carver9
Quan, you cant accept one thing and not accept the other.

She defeated Superman twice in that comic. The first time was when they were fighting and she whipped that a** and flew off to max lord because she didnt want to kill Superman (and she admitted that she was holding back) and the second time was when Superman flew to aid max lord and she used her superior reflexes, snatched her tiara off and cut Supermans throat before he had the time to react.

Now if you are calling THAT fight pis or saying that THATS not a showing that Wonder Woman can defeat Superman then you need to accept it when people say that Thanos didnt hold his own against odin then since Wonder Woman showing against Supes is more obvious than Thanos showing against Odin.

You cant accept one without the other.

Thank you. Quan's bias is in overdrive tonight; he's even starting to mis-state things from the issue he's citing. But let someone say anything negative about Thor (whom I have liked for over 30 years) or Thanos, and, well...

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
How is it not impressive? Considering that Superman was enraged and bloodlusted, Diana surviving, let alone being able to damage Superman is impressive. Their intent was completely different from each other. Superman, thinking she was DD and had killed Lois, wanted nothing more than to put her out of his misery. Conversely, Diana was putting enough effort forth to survive and try and stop Lord from controlling him. If she wanted to kill him, she could have with her tiara.

No one is arguing that Diana beats anyone on team 1 for a majority, but she's more than capable of holding her own and being a serious threat in the the process. It all depends on how goes after WW, in my opinion anyway. The only really bad match for her is Surfer, and even then, not to the point that she's useless.

Originally posted by carver9
Quan, you cant accept one thing and not accept the other.

She defeated Superman twice in that comic. The first time was when they were fighting and she whipped that a** and flew off to max lord because she didnt want to kill Superman (and she admitted that she was holding back) and the second time was when Superman flew to aid max lord and she used her superior reflexes, snatched her tiara off and cut Supermans throat before he had the time to react.

Now if you are calling THAT fight pis or saying that THATS not a showing that Wonder Woman can defeat Superman then you need to accept it when people say that Thanos didnt hold his own against odin then since Wonder Woman showing against Supes is more obvious than Thanos showing against Odin.

You cant accept one without the other. No, she fought him off long enough to escape the situation. She threw the tiara into his throat when he showed up.

Thanos didn't need to avoid or use birds to peck Odin's eyes out to take him on. Thanos earned his respect and yet he wasn't even defeated.


Supes showed he's far too strong for her to take too many all out blows from him. She can't take him head on.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Thank you. Quan's bias is in overdrive tonight; he's even starting to mis-state things from the issue he's citing. But let someone say anything negative about Thor (whom I have liked for over 30 years) or Thanos, and, well... What did I mis state?

He only broke one of her wrists, not both (and this, contextually, was to demonstrate that she was much tougher than years before, when he broke her arm); she wasn't "hiding" -- she was re-orienting herself to get in position to deliver what she (presumably) hoped would be a disorienting blow via her bracers -- which is was, as she was able to combo some follow up blows; she did not say he was "too strong", she said he was "so strong" -- before that fight, in other battles, and in situations since (such as Amazons Attack), Diana has demonstrated as being nearly as strong as Clark -- you're taking her acknowledging his great strength as somehow saying she is much weaker than him.

Those examples...

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she fought him off long enough to escape the situation. She threw the tiara into his throat when he showed up.

And this isn't impressive? Diana had no intention of fighting a bloodlusted mindcontrolled Superman (who would?); she wanted to get to the heart of the source: Max Lord. If Diana didn't really give a shit about Kal, do you think she couldn't have killed him? The simple fact that Superman was trying to kill her and couldn't seal the deal while Diana was trying her best to restrain him long enough to get to Lord is impressive to me. What does Wonder Woman have to do to impress you?

Not to mention that Diana is shown to consistantly hold her own against Superman and Captain Marvel as well as heralded as one of the top four physically most powerful heroes on the planet next to them and J'onn. Like I said, against a prolonged battle, most will agree Superman beats Diana, but it's not a stomp. I'm not accusing of you this, Quan, but a lot of people here really underestimate Diana just because she doesn't stomp all over Superman, when most high heralds simply can't stomp all over him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she fought him off long enough to escape the situation. She threw the tiara into his throat when he showed up.

Thanos didn't need to avoid or use birds to peck Odin's eyes out to take him on. Thanos earned his respect and yet he wasn't even defeated.


Supes showed he's far too strong for her to take too many all out blows from him. She can't take him head on.

What did I mis state?

Quan, its pointless to debate against you because your mind is made up but I'm going to try one more time.

Her using her speed in combat against Supes is within her power. If she was moving to fast for Supes to find her then thats just how it is. Why wouldnt she disappear in battle if its well within her ability to do it? She was moving fast, Superman was unable to sense her, and she tagged him in the ears. Thats basically stating that flash need to slow down in battle so that the other person can see and hit him.

Do you really know the reason on why she called the birds? Did you read the comic because it was stated in that comic why she did that? She didnt use the birds to fight Superman, she used them as a distraction because she didnt want to kill Superman, she wanted to stop max lord.

Now answer this, if she would have stayed there and fought Superman without calling the birds, without fleeing, wouldnt her mission been pointless. Either Superman would have died or she would have died and max lord would have won.

When did Superman show that he was too strong for her? I didnt see that anywhere in that fight. He snapped her wrist, that shouldnt be something hard for either Superman nor Wonder woman to do.

She slit Superman throat and he was helpless. If she wanted, she could have killed him right there when he was holding his neck. Again, Wonder Woman used her Superior speed and overwhelmed Superman. She shouldnt have to slow down to make a fight better for you to like.

Avoiding and using your superior speed is two different things.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yeah, she needed to hide from him because he already ko'd her once and snapped her wrists. She used animals and such to buy time so she could escape. Not a showing I would bring up arguing for WW. She also comments on how he is too strong.

Yea, you wouldn't bring up a showing... where she won? And fought him for quite awhile. Sure, it was something of a back and forth, degrading stalemate, until she got the opening to use the tiara, but she made that opening, and it's her tiara. That's like complaining, "Sure, Superman beat Mongul, but only because he flew and used heatvision."


Yes, he's very strong, strong enough that she does not want to take those hits, but that was him in full-out Lois death rage. She was even holding back a little, she commented. Yea, sure, she'll break combat at times to regroup and re-engage on better terms, but she makes those openings with her powers and then regains the initiative.


Then there's her time against DoomsdaySuperman (Superman enchanted by Circe to be lost in rage, covered in Doomsday spikes), where she didn't even get her lasso to start off with because Silver Swan stole it.


There's no way she's being taken out fast, which has been proven on a half-dozen occasions. Sure, she'll *eventually* lose due to his power advantage most of the time, unless he leaves an opening like in Sacrifice, but it's always a slow, hard process. Every time.


Now, throw in Firelord to that fight. It goes from 'stalemate' to 'win'.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And this isn't impressive? Diana had no intention of fighting a bloodlusted mindcontrolled Superman (who would?); she wanted to get to the heart of the source: Max Lord. If Diana didn't really give a shit about Kal, do you think she couldn't have killed him? The simple fact that Superman was trying to kill her and couldn't seal the deal while Diana was trying her best to restrain him long enough to get to Lord is impressive to me. What does Wonder Woman have to do to impress you?

Not to mention that Diana is shown to consistantly hold her own against Superman and Captain Marvel as well as heralded as one of the top four physically most powerful heroes on the planet next to them and J'onn. Like I said, against a prolonged battle, most will agree Superman beats Diana, but it's not a stomp. I'm not accusing of you this, Quan, but a lot of people here really underestimate Diana just because she doesn't stomp all over Superman, when most high heralds simply can't stomp all over him. Well, not really. The only reason she lasted as long as she did was due to him being so completely out of his mind he allowed her to sneak up behind him with a free shot after he physically assaulted her.

I think she could have killed him when he was completely unaware of her presence. That isn't going to happen in a forum matchup.

Physically, Supes was head and shoulders above her.

Other characters in dc also have been portrayed closer to Superman than WW. I've never seen him easily snap Marvel's wrist or ko Black Adam with a punch like he did against WW.


She competes with them due to skill.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And this isn't impressive? Diana had no intention of fighting a bloodlusted mindcontrolled Superman (who would?); she wanted to get to the heart of the source: Max Lord. If Diana didn't really give a shit about Kal, do you think she couldn't have killed him? The simple fact that Superman was trying to kill her and couldn't seal the deal while Diana was trying her best to restrain him long enough to get to Lord is impressive to me. What does Wonder Woman have to do to impress you?

Not to mention that Diana is shown to consistantly hold her own against Superman and Captain Marvel as well as heralded as one of the top four physically most powerful heroes on the planet next to them and J'onn. Like I said, against a prolonged battle, most will agree Superman beats Diana, but it's not a stomp. I'm not accusing of you this, Quan, but a lot of people here really underestimate Diana just because she doesn't stomp all over Superman, when most high heralds simply can't stomp all over him.

What quan is thinking is that when she flew off, he thinks she was running when all in all, if he read the comic, she was basically trying to get to max lord and she was basically holding back against Superman.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, you wouldn't bring up a showing... where she won? And fought him for quite awhile. Sure, it was something of a back and forth, degrading stalemate, until she got the opening to use the tiara, but she made that opening, and it's her tiara. That's like complaining, "Sure, Superman beat Mongul, but only because he flew and used heatvision."


Yes, he's very strong, strong enough that she does not want to take those hits, but that was him in full-out Lois death rage. She was even holding back a little, she commented. Yea, sure, she'll break combat at times to regroup and re-engage on better terms, but she makes those openings with her powers and then regains the initiative.


Then there's her time against DoomsdaySuperman (Superman enchanted by Circe to be lost in rage, covered in Doomsday spikes), where she didn't even get her lasso to start off with because Silver Swan stole it.


There's no way she's being taken out fast, which has been proven on a half-dozen occasions. Sure, she'll *eventually* lose due to his power advantage most of the time, unless he leaves an opening like in Sacrifice, but it's always a slow, hard process. Every time.


Now, throw in Firelord to that fight. It goes from 'stalemate' to 'win'. After she fled the scene.

You can't run away from your opponent here. The fight clearly showed us Superman's above her in terms of durability and strength.

I disagree. I think if Superman fights under his normal frame of mind he can beat her quickly. it's due to her lack of durability and lack of strength.

Superman>>WW the fact that one punch knocked her out shows that. Heck, he admits it in almost all versions possible

Originally posted by carver9
Quan, its pointless to debate against you because your mind is made up but I'm going to try one more time.

Her using her speed in combat against Supes is within her power. If she was moving to fast for Supes to find her then thats just how it is. Why wouldnt she disappear in battle if its well within her ability to do it? She was moving fast, Superman was unable to sense her, and she tagged him in the ears. Thats basically stating that flash need to slow down in battle so that the other person can see and hit him.

Do you really know the reason on why she called the birds? Did you read the comic because it was stated in that comic why she did that? She didnt use the birds to fight Superman, she used them as a distraction because she didnt want to kill Superman, she wanted to stop max lord.

Now answer this, if she would have stayed there and fought Superman without calling the birds, without fleeing, wouldnt her mission been pointless. Either Superman would have died or she would have died and max lord would have won.

When did Superman show that he was too strong for her? I didnt see that anywhere in that fight. He snapped her wrist, that shouldnt be something hard for either Superman nor Wonder woman to do.

She slit Superman throat and he was helpless. If she wanted, she could have killed him right there when he was holding his neck. Again, Wonder Woman used her Superior speed and overwhelmed Superman. She shouldnt have to slow down to make a fight better for you to like.

Avoiding and using your superior speed is two different things.

Carver9 owning Quanchi. This Forum improved.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Well, not really. The only reason she lasted as long as she did was due to him being so completely out of his mind he allowed her to sneak up behind him with a free shot after he physically assaulted her.

I think she could have killed him when he was completely unaware of her presence. That isn't going to happen in a forum matchup.

Physically, Supes was head and shoulders above her.

Other characters in dc also have been portrayed closer to Superman than WW. I've never seen him easily snap Marvel's wrist or ko Black Adam with a punch like he did against WW.


She competes with them due to skill.

OMG, quan, what book were you reading?

First thing, Superman was thinking the entire time he was fighting her. It was Superman, he just thought he was fighting Doomsday and he was trying to kill her.

Prove to us that he was head and shoulders above her.

She competes with them due to skill and Strength and speed.

She is more skill and much more faster than Supes combat wise and she's a better tactician AND she is just as strong.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Well, not really. The only reason she lasted as long as she did was due to him being so completely out of his mind he allowed her to sneak up behind him with a free shot after he physically assaulted her.

I think she could have killed him when he was completely unaware of her presence. That isn't going to happen in a forum matchup.

Physically, Supes was head and shoulders above her.

Other characters in dc also have been portrayed closer to Superman than WW. I've never seen him easily snap Marvel's wrist or ko Black Adam with a punch like he did against WW.


She competes with them due to skill.

In a forum match up, both people will be in their right minds and fitting to their full capabilities. Under those circumstances, it's going to be even for a long time until Superman steadily begins to overpower her. He's not going to WTFPWN Wonder Woman, end of story.

As far as being head and shoulders above her, that's simply not the case in that specific fight, or in reality. His physical attributes are higher than hers across the board, sure, but not to the point where he can do away with her with ease.

Those people mentioned are also in this fight and opposite of Superman's team. What happens when either of the Marvels get ahold of Superman, Thor, or Surfer? It's going to be at least a gruelling stalemate for a while.

And if her skill is what allows her to compete with them, isn't that impressive in of itself?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Well, not really. The only reason she lasted as long as she did was due to him being so completely out of his mind he allowed her to sneak up behind him with a free shot after he physically assaulted her.

Rather, he was searching for her furiously and she boxed his ears almost immediately because she knew how he'd try to search for her.

And the reason she was out of his sight to begin with was because of her actions.



What's your excuse for the other times they've fought? Because they've fought a lot. "For Tomorrow", they stalemated until Superman pulled a 'Look, innocents! Can't fight me and save them, bye-bye!' to escape. DoomsdaySuperman. League of One.




Marvel and BA's bones, I'm not sure if they ever break, their durability might be better than Superman's. However, she has like a half dozen things they don't too. I have also never seen Superman fight a Marvel in "Lois-is-dead" mode, nor have I ever seen a Marvel pull those things.

When Marvel and Diana fought strength for strength they were dead even. Unsurprising, as they have pretty much identical power sources.




The point is, she competes with them. Your argument relies on her... not competing with them.

Originally posted by quanchi112
After she fled the scene.

You can't run away from your opponent here. The fight clearly showed us Superman's above her in terms of durability and strength.

I disagree. I think if Superman fights under his normal frame of mind he can beat her quickly. it's due to her lack of durability and lack of strength.

LOL, quan, can you stop saying flee because she didnt flee. If you seen the fight you would have known that before she flew off she had Superman on the ground holding his ribs.

Durability, I agree, strength, equal, speed, wonder woman has him beat, skill, wonder woman has him beat, versatility, Supes has her beat.

They are pretty equal if you ask me and honestly, if Wonder Woman fight smart, using her skills like she did before, she could get the majority.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman>>WW the fact that one punch knocked her out shows that. Heck, he admits it in almost all versions possible

I think he regards Diana as an equal more so than he admits being >> than her.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman>>WW the fact that one punch knocked her out shows that. Heck, he admits it in almost all versions possible

And he also admits that Wonder Woman is just as strong, he also admitted during the amazo battle that Wonder woman is faster and Batman also admitted that wonder woman is faster.

Originally posted by quanchi112
After she fled the scene.

But the second clash was almost entirely her pounding on him. She fled to get to Max, but she definitely wasn't doing badly. Bruised ribs he was holding, injured ears, he was not in happy shape. There was no reason she had to flee combat-wise, only to get to Max.

And she can still fly away a bit then turn around and re-engage, they aren't fighting in a box.



When fully enraged, yea. When less enraged? Only by a little.

The same can be said about Superman to the Marvels, yet you aren't making the argument for them.




They've done so, you're wrong.

Originally posted by carver9
And he also admits that Wonder Woman is just as strong, he also admitted during the amazo battle that Wonder woman is faster and Batman also admitted that wonder woman is faster.
Nice try. Post the scan and you'll see how wrong you are. The only thing WW is faster is reflexes. However, what can reflexes do if you can't move fast enough to dodge the incoming attack.

WW has claimed Superman>her

And don't even get me started on Captain Marvel and how underrated he is.

uhuh

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nice try. Post the scan and you'll see how wrong you are. The only thing WW is faster is reflexes. However, what can reflexes do if you can't move fast enough to dodge the incoming attack.

WW has claimed Superman>her

Move a bracer into the way then counterattack? (More precisely, it's hand-speed they were talking about. Reflexes plus how fast the individual blows are thrown)

Yea, Superman>WW. Not by much, though. Whenever they fight, it is close.

A normal fight between Superman and Wonder Woman will be a drawn-out battle that Superman wins unless he makes a mistake. Superman is overall more powerful but it's a tough long fight for him.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nice try. Post the scan and you'll see how wrong you are. The only thing WW is faster is reflexes. However, what can reflexes do if you can't move fast enough to dodge the incoming attack.

WW has claimed Superman>her

She's also claimed to be his equal, Superman has claimed Diana to be his equal, third parties have claimed them to be equals, etc.

No one here is trying to claim that Wonder Woman's strength and durability is on the exact same level or exceeds Superman. It's not, and it doesn't. But DC is of the opinion it's close enough to warrant a closer look.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Carver9 owning Quanchi. This Forum improved. WW actually said he's too strong. People ignoring this to put WW where she doesn't belong is out of order.

Originally posted by carver9
OMG, quan, what book were you reading?

First thing, Superman was thinking the entire time he was fighting her. It was Superman, he just thought he was fighting Doomsday and he was trying to kill her.

Prove to us that he was head and shoulders above her.

She competes with them due to skill and Strength and speed.

She is more skill and much more faster than Supes combat wise and she's a better tactician AND she is just as strong. I know. He thought he was fighting DD, and yes he wasn't pulling his punches.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/th_job108hs.jpg

She isn't just as strong. You saying she is is ignoring the comic itself.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/th_job79wa.jpg


Yeah, cheapshotting an opponent with his back turned isn't meeting him mano e mano.

Originally posted by Q99
A normal fight between Superman and Wonder Woman will be a drawn-out battle that Superman wins unless he makes a mistake.

^ this.

Originally posted by quanchi112
WW actually said he's too strong. People ignoring this to put WW where she doesn't belong is out of order.

Yea, he's stronger, she's got better hand to hand speed and skill. The latter two can make up for the former a heck of a lot.


Being stronger does not equal a quick win, stop saying it does.




Then he turns around and there's some hand to hand back and forth.


There's all the other fights too.

Originally posted by Q99
But the second clash was almost entirely her pounding on him. She fled to get to Max, but she definitely wasn't doing badly. Bruised ribs he was holding, injured ears, he was not in happy shape. There was no reason she had to flee combat-wise, only to get to Max.

And she can still fly away a bit then turn around and re-engage, they aren't fighting in a box.



When fully enraged, yea. When less enraged? Only by a little.

The same can be said about Superman to the Marvels, yet you aren't making the argument for them.




They've done so, you're wrong. The whole fight was her turning his strengths into his weaknesses. When they fought toe to toe she was biding her time. He broke her wrist, temporarily ko'd her, and avoided the lasso.

Marvel has been shown to be an equal in terms of strength to Superman while WW hasn't.

Then prove it.Originally posted by xJLxKing
Nice try. Post the scan and you'll see how wrong you are. The only thing WW is faster is reflexes. However, what can reflexes do if you can't move fast enough to dodge the incoming attack.

WW has claimed Superman>her She is more than fast enough reflex wise to take on Superman. She isn't strong enough or durable enough to beat him though. That's what it all boils down to.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She's also claimed to be his equal, Superman has claimed Diana to be his equal, third parties have claimed them to be equals, etc.

No one here is trying to claim that Wonder Woman's strength and durability is on the exact same level or exceeds Superman. It's not, and it doesn't. But DC is of the opinion it's close enough to warrant a closer look. She competes because of her training, reflexes, accessories, but mainly her skill level.

Originally posted by Q99
Yea, he's stronger, she's got better hand to hand speed and skill. The latter two can make up for the former a heck of a lot.


Being stronger does not equal a quick win, stop saying it does.




Then he turns around and there's some hand to hand back and forth.


There's all the other fights too. uhm, we've seen it happen. Show me one fight where WW defeated Superman straight up meeting him head on.

How many fights has she beaten him?

Originally posted by quanchi112
WW actually said he's too strong. People ignoring this to put WW where she doesn't belong is out of order.

I know. He thought he was fighting DD, and yes he wasn't pulling his punches.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/th_job108hs.jpg

She isn't just as strong. You saying she is is ignoring the comic itself.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/th_job79wa.jpg


Yeah, cheapshotting an opponent with his back turned isn't meeting him mano e mano.

And this still doesn't impress you? That Diana used guile to make an opening that a lesser opponent would have failed to do? Why should she fight the kind of direct battle Superman has the advantage in when she can change the course of the fight or dictate how it goes?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And this still doesn't impress you? That Diana used guile to make an opening that a lesser opponent would have failed to do? Why should she fight the kind of direct battle Superman has the advantage in when she can change the course of the fight or dictate how it goes? The only reason it happened was because he was not in the right state of mind.

My point is a direct battle between the two always favors Superman. These are the things she needs to do in order to beat him.

He was in a state of mind that might give him a real chance against HP DD, don't you think so Quan?

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
He was in a state of mind that might give him a real chance against HP DD, don't you think so Quan? I definitely think he'd have a better shot than the state of mind he was in hp.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The only reason it happened was because he was not in the right state of mind.

My point is a direct battle between the two always favors Superman. These are the things she needs to do in order to beat him.

Again, in a direct battle, most - if not all - will agree that, yeah, Superman wins. But because of Diana's comparable physical attributes, her equipment, and her level of strategy and skill, she'll be able to fight a prolonged battle with him. Anyone who dismisses this and claims that Superman is so far beyond WW that she'll insta-lose is shortsighted.

And again, this is a moot point if Diana doesn't even engage Superman in the fight. Against Thor, the gap is closer. Hell, in all honesty, I'd say Diana has a better chance against Thor than Superman does.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Again, in a direct battle, most - if not all - will agree that, yeah, Superman wins. But because of Diana's comparable physical attributes, her equipment, and her level of strategy and skill, she'll be able to fight a prolonged battle with him. Anyone who dismisses this and claims that Superman is so far beyond WW that she'll insta-lose is shortsighted.

And again, this is a moot point if Diana doesn't even engage Superman in the fight. Against Thor, the gap is closer. Hell, in all honesty, I'd say Diana has a better chance against Thor than Superman does. I never claimed that. I always maintained due to her skill and accessories she can beat him but not for a majority.


I don't think either of them have much of a chance in terms of winning the majority. When he cuts loose he's just too powerful for pretty much any top tier.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She's also claimed to be his equal, Superman has claimed Diana to be his equal, third parties have claimed them to be equals, etc.

No one here is trying to claim that Wonder Woman's strength and durability is on the exact same level or exceeds Superman. It's not, and it doesn't. But DC is of the opinion it's close enough to warrant a closer look.
Superman is like that. He claimed Johnz to be stronger then the entire JLA then you see him getting his ass handed to him. Soon after, Superman beats the villain

Besides, WW has claimed in numerous issues and versions that she just can't take him. He stronger, more versatile, faster, and more durable. When they spar, it's totally different. Superman rarely ever goes crazy like he did in OWAW.

Originally posted by Q99
Move a bracer into the way then counterattack? (More precisely, it's hand-speed they were talking about. Reflexes plus how fast the individual blows are thrown)

Yea, Superman>WW. Not by much, though. Whenever they fight, it is close.

A normal fight between Superman and Wonder Woman will be a drawn-out battle that Superman wins unless he makes a mistake. Superman is overall more powerful but it's a tough long fight for him.
Imo, I don't that what they were referring to when they made that statement. I think it was how fast she can notice and grasp a attack.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman is like that. He claimed Johnz to be stronger then the entire JLA then you see him getting his ass handed to him. Soon after, Superman beats the villain

Besides, WW has claimed in numerous issues and versions that she just can't take him. He stronger, more versatile, faster, and more durable. When they spar, it's totally different. Superman rarely ever goes crazy like he did in OWAW.

Which issues are these? To my knowledge, most writers and DC in general believe that they are pretty close to being physical peers more often than they think Diana simply doesn't have a chance in hell against Superman.

Originally posted by quanchi112
WW actually said he's too strong. People ignoring this to put WW where she doesn't belong is out of order.

I know. He thought he was fighting DD, and yes he wasn't pulling his punches.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/th_job108hs.jpg

She isn't just as strong. You saying she is is ignoring the comic itself.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/th_job79wa.jpg


Yeah, cheapshotting an opponent with his back turned isn't meeting him mano e mano.

I want you to tell me the difference between someone saying "he is so strong" vs "he is stronger than me".

Again, using Superior speed means thats cheapshotting?

Show us the scan after he breaks her wrist.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The only reason it happened was because he was not in the right state of mind.

My point is a direct battle between the two always favors Superman. These are the things she needs to do in order to beat him.

She went mano to womano against him and did just fine.

Originally posted by carver9
I want you to tell me the difference between someone saying "he is so strong" vs "he is stronger than me".

Again, using Superior speed means thats cheapshotting?

Show us the scan after he breaks her wrist. It implies as much. he also temporarily ko'd her and snapped her wrist. I mean what comic were you reading to suggest anything but this.



She didn't use superspeed to get behind him.
I did. It's the first scan. LOL.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Team two 8-9/10

Originally posted by carver9
She went mano to womano against him and did just fine. No, she used his super hearing against him to cheapshot him, used animals to distract him to flee the scene.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Superman is like that. He claimed Johnz to be stronger then the entire JLA then you see him getting his ass handed to him. Soon after, Superman beats the villain

Besides, WW has claimed in numerous issues and versions that she just can't take him. He stronger, more versatile, faster, and more durable. When they spar, it's totally different. Superman rarely ever goes crazy like he did in OWAW.


Imo, I don't that what they were referring to when they made that statement. I think it was how fast she can notice and grasp a attack.

No writer has ever said that Superman>Diana. Stop making sh** up.

Show us a scan.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, she used his super hearing against him to cheapshot him, used animals to distract him to flee the scene.

Show the scan after he breaks her wrist or do you want me to show it to you.

Again, do you know why she fleed the scene? Its pretty obvious quan.


Answer this, was she sent their to kill Superman or stop max lord?

If she stayed there to fight Superman instead of fleeing, what would have happened?

Come on quan, this isnt hard.

Originally posted by carver9
No writer has ever said that Superman>Diana. Stop making sh** up.

Show us a scan.
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/alanan8.jpg/
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/wwsupermanstrongestqt2.jpg/
http://img510.imageshack.us/i/batsupermanstrongest1bj1.jpg/

There are also versions like Kingdom comes, of one of our own where I believe she admits.

Originally posted by carver9
Show the scan after he breaks her wrist or do you want me to show it to you.

Again, do you know why she fleed the scene? Its pretty obvious quan.


Answer this, was she sent their to kill Superman or stop max lord?

If she stayed there to fight Superman instead of fleeing, what would have happened?

Come on quan, this isnt hard. Yes, because she wanted to sever Max' hold on Superman.

I already stated if she really wanted to she could probably have slit WW's throat while sneaking up behind him.

Superman would have beaten her.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/alanan8.jpg/
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/wwsupermanstrongestqt2.jpg/
http://img510.imageshack.us/i/batsupermanstrongest1bj1.jpg/

There are also versions like Kingdom comes, of one of our own where I believe she admits.

These don't tell us anything we don't already know, though.

It's widely considered to be fact that Superman is the most powerful being on Earth (though you can debate it). And Wonder Woman nodding that he is stronger does not translate into "Oh, my god, you're so far beyond me it's not even funny."

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
These don't tell us anything we don't already know, though.

It's widely considered to be fact that Superman is the most powerful being on Earth (though you can debate it). And Wonder Woman nodding that he is stronger does not translate into "Oh, my god, you're so far beyond me it's not even funny." It's more like, "Superman, you are more powerful then me." Feats, Statement, accomplishments all go to Superman.

Superman doesn't go crazy on most of his opponents. Imperiex excluded.
WW could barely handle one imperiex probe; she nearly died.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/alanan8.jpg/
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/wwsupermanstrongestqt2.jpg/
http://img510.imageshack.us/i/batsupermanstrongest1bj1.jpg/

There are also versions like Kingdom comes, of one of our own where I believe she admits.

So all of the kryptonians is as powerful as Supes?

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
These don't tell us anything we don't already know, though.

It's widely considered to be fact that Superman is the most powerful being on Earth (though you can debate it). And Wonder Woman nodding that he is stronger does not translate into "Oh, my god, you're so far beyond me it's not even funny."

Yea.


Also, one time the JLA was worried about Diana possibly being out of control/under the control of some massively powerful force. Batman said Superman was the only leaguer that could restrain her of that was the case.

While J'onn was in the room.

Everyone agreed with his assessment.


So Superman > Diana > J'onn. And even then I don't think Superman could quickly take J'onn out.

There are differences in power and the characters know this, but it's like two Olympic medal-winning boxers. The gold winner knows they's the strongest and the silver winner knows it too, but that doesn't mean gold medalist vs silver medalist isn't a heck of a fight where the gold medalist really needs to keep their head in the game every second of the fight.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
It's more like, "Superman, you are more powerful then me." Feats, Statement, accomplishments all go to Superman.

Superman doesn't go crazy on most of his opponents. Imperiex excluded.
WW could barely handle one imperiex probe; she nearly died.

Again, this is common knowledge.



Superman is stronger and overall more powerful than Wonder Woman. Him being more powerful than her doesn't mean he stomps all over her. And it sure as hell doesn't mean she can't beat him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, because she wanted to sever Max' hold on Superman.

I already stated if she really wanted to she could probably have slit WW's throat while sneaking up behind him.

Superman would have beaten her.

I never said Superman cant beat her but what you fail to realize is that Wonder Woman can beat Superman also.

Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Again, this is common knowledge.



Superman is stronger and overall more powerful than Wonder Woman. Him being more powerful than her doesn't mean he stomps all over her. And it sure as hell doesn't mean she can't beat him.
Unless he is holding back, or makes a huge mistake. Otherwise, she shouldn't win any fights against him.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
It's more like, "Superman, you are more powerful then me." Feats, Statement, accomplishments all go to Superman.

Superman doesn't go crazy on most of his opponents. Imperiex excluded.
WW could barely handle one imperiex probe; she nearly died.

Wonder Woman was hurt when she fought an Imperex probe and black lightning and Supergirl (a weakened supergirl at that) defeated an imperex probe.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Unless he is holding back, or makes a huge mistake. Otherwise, she shouldn't win any fights against him.

And therein lies the problem.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Unless he is holding back, or makes a huge mistake. Otherwise, she shouldn't win any fights against him.

He wasnt holding back in their last fight and he got beaten.

The thing about it was, she was holding back.

Originally posted by carver9
I never said Superman cant beat her but what you fail to realize is that Wonder Woman can beat Superman also. I never said otherwise. this fight proves she can't take too many attacks from an all out Superman.Originally posted by JakeTheBank
And therein lies the problem. I agree.

Originally posted by carver9
He wasnt holding back in their last fight and he got beaten.

The thing about it was, she was holding back.
He knocked her out. It's the end of the fight

Originally posted by xJLxKing
He knocked her out. It's the end of the fight

An AMPED Superman TEMPORARILY knocked her out.

You did know being close to the sun gives him an amp right?

Originally posted by quanchi112
I never said otherwise. this fight proves she can't take too many attacks from an all out Superman. I agree.

What attacks wasnt she able to take?

It wasn't an amp

Originally posted by xJLxKing
It wasn't an amp

Why wasnt it an amp?

Seriously, I can't see how anyone can claim Superman 10/10 over Wonder Woman if they're both at peak. A majority, sure, but Wonder Woman not being able to beat him, period?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
He knocked her out. It's the end of the fight

Except it wasn't, she was out maybe a second or two, stood up, and kept fighting *better* than before.

And that doesn't change that she came back and won.

Even if you count that as the 'end' on technicality, that merely makes it two fights, with him winning the first and her winning the second.




They've also fought a buncha other times.

Originally posted by Q99
Except it wasn't, she was out maybe a second or two, stood up, and kept fighting *better* than before.

And that doesn't change that she came back and won.

Even if you count that as the 'end' on technicality, that merely makes it two fights, with him winning the first and her winning the second.




They've also fought a buncha other times.
KO, means knocked out. Usually knock outs are fast and quick. It was technically finished

Originally posted by xJLxKing
KO, means knocked out. Usually knock outs are fast and quick. It was technically finished

An amped Superman koed her and after that ko, she defeated him twice.

Two defeats in one comic.

I just realized something: Quan is using the scans out of order, and also isn't including the more *clarified* pics from "Mission's End", which show things a bit more accurately, because they're from Diana's POV -- she gets manhandled just as brutally, but the battle-flow is clearer, and it shows that when it came to fighting HtH, they were much more even, and she could have gotten the kill (not that she'd have done so -- just keeping it in forum-context) after stunning Clark after dodging his blows/heat vision, and kicking him into the ground (which, BTW Quan, is the scan that comes after -- not the one you posted which is two pages before that).

But I do see why Quan *might* legitimately be misconstruing certain things, though honestly even with what he posted it is clear Clark wasn't "head and shoulders" above her. He has broader degrees of invulnerability - no contention there. He is stronger - true (though only marginally so). Diana has an edge in combat reflexes (not major, but an edge). He can take a beating longer than she can; she has weapons that can kill him (especially as they are being backed by physical power near his own). Don't see why this is difficult to understand.

Originally posted by tideoftime


But I do see why Quan *might* legitimately be misconstruing certain things, though honestly even with what he posted it is clear Clark wasn't "head and shoulders" above her. He has broader degrees of invulnerability - no contention there. He is stronger - true (though only marginally so). Diana has an edge in combat reflexes (not major, but an edge). He can take a beating longer than she can; she has weapons that can kill him (especially as they are being backed by physical power near his own). Don't see why this is difficult to understand.


Please stop. Don't try to give him even a shred of credibility when it comes to discussing Wonder Woman or this fight. He is so incredibly biased that it is not worth reading his posts. He has ALWAYS misused scans from that fight and claimed they stand for something they do not. This is nothing new. This is the same guy who thinks that WW with the gauntlets of Atlas and the sword of Hephaestus cannot beat Hulk or Thor. You cannot reason with him.

I also would advise people to stop using "She admitted he's superior" type arguments because characters statements are also inconsistent. We can find scans where Superman basically says that WW and CM are equals in strength. Diana says that she is faster than Clark. Batman calls Wonder Woman the greatest melee fighter on earth. A counter argument in the form of another characters quote can just about always be found.

That fight showed one thing. WW can hang with Superman. Yes, she took a beating, but so did he. Think about how long Supes had to be down for Diana to summon those birds and have them arrive. I'd reckon he was down longer than she was "knocked out" by his punch.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A fight between those two would be brutal. On average, Superman would win because he is stronger and more durable. Diana would have a harder time knocking him out. However, if we add in WW's gear that bridges the physical gaps for me.

As for this fight, Team 2 wins 8-9 out of ten. Someone on Team 1 is getting double teamed and they are going down hard. I just can't see that happening after one of the 1-1 match ups goes for Team 1.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Please stop. Don't try to give him even a shred of credibility when it comes to discussing Wonder Woman or this fight. He is so incredibly biased that it is not worth reading his posts. He has ALWAYS misused scans from that fight and claimed they stand for something they do not. This is nothing new. This is the same guy who thinks that WW with the gauntlets of Atlas and the sword of Hephaestus cannot beat Hulk or Thor. You cannot reason with him.

You're right. Re-reading my post I realized I was being *reasonable* -- which normally wouldn't be a bad thing, except that when dealing with someone as *unreasonable* as Quan, that's a mistake. Which is unfortunate, because it is a shame he is so biased -- it's makes having a real discussion virtually impossible.

Oh, and I'd probably give Team 2 a *slight* majority, due entirely to the number advantage, and even that can depend on the order of who is directly attacking who/double teaming at a given time; Team 1 is a fierce trio, and have a major advantage in versatility -- they can make for heavy wins when they do win.

Originally posted by carver9
What attacks wasnt she able to take? The punch for one. In this fight she wouldn't be re entering the atmosphere so she will stay ko'd.Originally posted by tideoftime
I just realized something: Quan is using the scans out of order, and also isn't including the more *clarified* pics from "Mission's End", which show things a bit more accurately, because they're from Diana's POV -- she gets manhandled just as brutally, but the battle-flow is clearer, and it shows that when it came to fighting HtH, they were much more even, and she could have gotten the kill (not that she'd have done so -- just keeping it in forum-context) after stunning Clark after dodging his blows/heat vision, and kicking him into the ground (which, BTW Quan, is the scan that comes after -- not the one you posted which is two pages before that).

But I do see why Quan *might* legitimately be misconstruing certain things, though honestly even with what he posted it is clear Clark wasn't "head and shoulders" above her. He has broader degrees of invulnerability - no contention there. He is stronger - true (though only marginally so). Diana has an edge in combat reflexes (not major, but an edge). He can take a beating longer than she can; she has weapons that can kill him (especially as they are being backed by physical power near his own). Don't see why this is difficult to understand. I posted two scans about the damage supes dealt her in this fight. i didn't put up the whole fight in order. Whatever gave you I even attempted to do so?

Originally posted by tideoftime
You're right. Re-reading my post I realized I was being *reasonable* -- which normally wouldn't be a bad thing, except that when dealing with someone as *unreasonable* as Quan, that's a mistake. Which is unfortunate, because it is a shame he is so biased -- it's makes having a real discussion virtually impossible.

Oh, and I'd probably give Team 2 a *slight* majority, due entirely to the number advantage, and even that can depend on the order of who is directly attacking who/double teaming at a given time; Team 1 is a fierce trio, and have a major advantage in versatility -- they can make for heavy wins when they do win.

Yes, you were being reasonable, which I would normally applaud. But against this particular poster, it's best to just shake your head and move on

You are correct that Team 1 is a very impressive trio. And they could pull out some wins. I just think that most of the potential 2vs1 match ups really hurt them. I think Surfer would do the best out of the 3 of them in a 2 against 1 fight. If he is the one who gets double teamed, he could take down one of his attackers and then it would be 3 on 3 and a whole new ball game.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Yes, you were being reasonable, which I would normally applaud. But against this particular poster, it's best to just shake your head and move on

You are correct that Team 1 is a very impressive trio. And they could pull out some wins. I just think that most of the potential 2vs1 match ups really hurt them. I think Surfer would do the best out of the 3 of them in a 2 against 1 fight. If he is the one who gets double teamed, he could take down one of his attackers and then it would be 3 on 3 and a whole new ball game. What did I take out of context?

Originally posted by quanchi112
What did I take out of context?

Honestly, Quan, this is a real case of "If you have to ask, you're not going to understand the answer" kind of situation; this fight (SM vs. WW) seems to come up with regularity around here, and most people get what was intended to be conveyed by the fight: Superman has the advantage, especially when he goes all-out, but Diana can take a monstrous beating, and still keep going. The injuries she did sustain were categorically of a lower grade than the injuries she received in other battles with an enraged/altered Superman in the past (such as when he was under Circe's influence) -- it was also made quite clear that she was *not* fighting for the kill, as he was; if she had been, she had two clear opportunities to kill him: when she stunned him after their HtH in Wyoming, and when she tiara'd him in front of Lord. In both instances, it was clear that she wasn't taking "Forum Combat" advantage of the situation (as she of course wouldn't, as she was trying to help her friend, not kill him -- if it had been Bizarro, but keeping the same order of combat as displayed, we'd have been holding a funeral for him the next day. And don't even bring up any Trinity storylines: that is a retro-story from when Diana was weaker than she is now).

Saying, for example, that the fight would have been over when she was KO'd for a brief moment, is arbitrary to the debate at hand: no one is disputing a blow from an amped Superman couldn't knock her for a good one (or that sustained blows from a regular Supes couldn't do the same). The instances she had of where she could have subdued him (after stunning him, then subdue via lasso), or killed him (via tiara after stunning, or at Lord's) are just as valid, contextually, as Supes socking her good across three planetary orbits; the latter is more dramatic and circumstantially impressive, but the former two are just as valid in a Forum Fight. (And to restate from another thread: the point of him hitting her from the Sun to the Earth wasn't that "oooo, she got ganked", but rather "Christ on a cracker, b!tch can take a hit -- amped Supes, slamming into the Earth at FTL speeds, and only got a small nosebleed from it, and was up again within seconds? Tough B!tch, as Guy Gardner nicknamed her 20+ years ago..." Even his snapping her wrist needs to be taken in context: when he grabbed it (thinking it is DD's wrist), it didn't snap then -- it snapped after Diana had blocked, then hit him, then in response to the pain of her blow, he bore down on her wrist with all of his strength; *then* it snapped (check "Mission's End" for a more accurate account of how their battle went -- still essentially the same, but with subtle tweeks, as Diana was seeing things more clearly than Clark was -- obviously). And even with that, it "merely" snapped -- it wasn't pulverized, or crushed, but simply snapped. And of course an enraged Supes can do that... just as an enraged (or realizing she has to be serious) WW can stun or (via her weapons), seriously harm *him*.

Also, Diana (much like Clark), was still in fairly workable condition after the fight: 15 minutes later, she was half-way around the world, again, stopping a nuclear reactor from having a meltdown, then tracking down other agents linked to Lord; the next morning, she was up an about, the wound on her cheek already visibly healing, and battling OMACs that made a surprise attack on her at the Embassy. The point to bringing that up? Even after such a brutal fight, she was still in reasonably good condition -- not crushed, not hospitalized, not even really slowed down. If Supes were, in fact, "head and shoulders" above her, she would have been in a state *like* the Trinity battle with Bizarro. She wasn't.

Get it?

(Sorry, everybody, for the text wall, but I am hoping this ends this absurd discussion. I know it won't, 'cus Quan is uber-stubborn, but I am "speaking Truth to Power", in anycase...)

The worse person for Diana to face is Surfer, and even then, there's a solid chance she won't be facing him alone.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Honestly, Quan, this is a real case of "If you have to ask, you're not going to understand the answer" kind of situation; this fight (SM vs. WW) seems to come up with regularity around here, and most people get what was intended to be conveyed by the fight: Superman has the advantage, especially when he goes all-out, but Diana can take a monstrous beating, and still keep going. The injuries she did sustain were categorically of a lower grade than the injuries she received in other battles with an enraged/altered Superman in the past (such as when he was under Circe's influence) -- it was also made quite clear that she was *not* fighting for the kill, as he was; if she had been, she had two clear opportunities to kill him: when she stunned him after their HtH in Wyoming, and when she tiara'd him in front of Lord. In both instances, it was clear that she wasn't taking "Forum Combat" advantage of the situation (as she of course wouldn't, as she was trying to help her friend, not kill him -- if it had been Bizarro, but keeping the same order of combat as displayed, we'd have been holding a funeral for him the next day. And don't even bring up any Trinity storylines: that is a retro-story from when Diana was weaker than she is now).

Saying, for example, that the fight would have been over when she was KO'd for a brief moment, is arbitrary to the debate at hand: no one is disputing a blow from an amped Superman couldn't knock her for a good one (or that sustained blows from a regular Supes couldn't do the same). The instances she had of where she could have subdued him (after stunning him, then subdue via lasso), or killed him (via tiara after stunning, or at Lord's) are just as valid, contextually, as Supes socking her good across three planetary orbits; the latter is more dramatic and circumstantially impressive, but the former two are just as valid in a Forum Fight. (And to restate from another thread: the point of him hitting her from the Sun to the Earth wasn't that "oooo, she got ganked", but rather "Christ on a cracker, b!tch can take a hit -- amped Supes, slamming into the Earth at FTL speeds, and only got a small nosebleed from it, and was up again within seconds? Tough B!tch, as Guy Gardner nicknamed her 20+ years ago..." Even his snapping her wrist needs to be taken in context: when he grabbed it (thinking it is DD's wrist), it didn't snap then -- it snapped after Diana had blocked, then hit him, then in response to the pain of her blow, he bore down on her wrist with all of his strength; *then* it snapped (check "Mission's End" for a more accurate account of how their battle went -- still essentially the same, but with subtle tweeks, as Diana was seeing things more clearly than Clark was -- obviously). And even with that, it "merely" snapped -- it wasn't pulverized, or crushed, but simply snapped. And of course an enraged Supes can do that... just as an enraged (or realizing she has to be serious) WW can stun or (via her weapons), seriously harm *him*.

Also, Diana (much like Clark), was still in fairly workable condition after the fight: 15 minutes later, she was half-way around the world, again, stopping a nuclear reactor from having a meltdown, then tracking down other agents linked to Lord; the next morning, she was up an about, the wound on her cheek already visibly healing, and battling OMACs that made a surprise attack on her at the Embassy. The point to bringing that up? Even after such a brutal fight, she was still in reasonably good condition -- not crushed, not hospitalized, not even really slowed down. If Supes were, in fact, "head and shoulders" above her, she would have been in a state *like* the Trinity battle with Bizarro. She wasn't.

Get it?

(Sorry, everybody, for the text wall, but I am hoping this ends this absurd discussion. I know it won't, 'cus Quan is uber-stubborn, but I am "speaking Truth to Power", in anycase...) I agreed she could have killed him when she snuck up behind him. This tactic won't be available to her if she fights him in his normal mindset.

I don't really think Superman was amped in the sense the writer recognized it. If I am wrong on this and the writer was going for the that I will concede my point.


I think the fight more than showed superman's physical advantages over WW. She couldn't fight him directly. She needed to use her wits and turn his greatest strengths into his greatest weaknesses. This much is pretty apparent, but it was kind of ridiculous to see her sneak up right behind him with him being completely unaware of her.



She definitely didn't sustain more serious injuries because she didn't take that many blows from Superman head on. the blows she did take broke her wrist, burned her flesh, and ko'd her momentarily.

You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
it was kind of ridiculous to see her sneak up right behind him with him being completely unaware of her.


You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agreed she could have killed him when she snuck up behind him. This tactic won't be available to her if she fights him in his normal mindset.

Sure it would. It's not like he wasn't using his super-senses or anything, he specifically was, she just took advantage before there was a chance to react.

He thought she was Doomsday, he wasn't *impaired*. He was specifically fighting at his max and was still thinking during the fight.




And she is really good at avoiding direct blows, and she didn't inflict many in return but the ones she landed smashed his ears, bruised his ribs, and cut his throat.

There were more hits when she fought Doomsdayified Superman, but she won that one too.



You're just trying to spin it to give her far too little. It's not a one-off fight, it's a bunch of them with consistent results (that is, it is *always* close and difficult), and you're trying to turn a win into a loss.


Is it so hard to admit that Superman vs Wonder Woman is normally a close and hard fight when it has, on many occasions, been a close and hard fight? When he views her as Earth's second line of defense and Batman thinks he's the only one who could restraint a rampaging WW? When she fights dead-even with Captain Marvel too?

You can try and twist the facts all you want, but this is a really consistent thing that has been settled in-comic repeatedly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I agreed she could have killed him when she snuck up behind him. This tactic won't be available to her if she fights him in his normal mindset.

I don't really think Superman was amped in the sense the writer recognized it. If I am wrong on this and the writer was going for the that I will concede my point.


I think the fight more than showed superman's physical advantages over WW. She couldn't fight him directly. She needed to use her wits and turn his greatest strengths into his greatest weaknesses. This much is pretty apparent, but it was kind of ridiculous to see her sneak up right behind him with him being completely unaware of her.



She definitely didn't sustain more serious injuries because she didn't take that many blows from Superman head on. the blows she did take broke her wrist, burned her flesh, and ko'd her momentarily.

You're just trying to give her too much credit imo.

frusty

Dude... seriously?

I'd ask you if you're being for real, but I know you are, which is just... unbelievable...

The whole *point* to the battle, from a "forum" context, was to show how much of a beating she can take and still deal pretty well with the situation at hand -- nobody is saying Supes doesn't have a wider range of invulnerability than she does; of course he does. She only matches him, relatively speaking, in terms of blunt-force trauma. Of course she's going to look worse form wear from his attacks, and he'll look better off after hers. THE POINT is that she stood up to him pretty well, and if SHE were ALSO fighting for the kill AS HE WAS, this could have ended very differently. Her getting him with her bracers showed: skill, speed, finesse, and a desire to *not* kill him, but *subdue* him, if possible. Of course it hurt him (even without his hearing on, it would have, as her bracers are powerful magical artifacts), and of course it wasn't enought to keep him down, 'cus he's frickin' SUPERMAN. I am referring to when she gave him the uber-kick (after dodging his blow and heatvision) and stunned him -- she could have lassoed him or killed him (via tiara) then and there, if she wanted to (she didn't because she A: didn't want to kill her friend, and B: knew lassoing him was just a short-term fix to a long-term problem -- she needed to break Lord's hold over Clark in order to actually free him, permanently). And when she threw her tiara when they were back at Lord's, if her intention had been to kill Clark, it is very likely she could have; even at that point, she could have followed up with killing attacks (using her bracers as bludgeoning weapons, taking advantage of his few seconds of "Oh my god, my thoat is slit", or simply used her tiara again as a hand-held slashing weapon). She comments to Bruce (whom she was relating all this to in her "word boxes" during the battle) about how they "very nearly killed *each other*" (trying to explain why she had to kill Lord to free Clark; even Lord himself had stated that she would either have to kill Clark to stop him, or let Clark kill her. Of course, Lord didn't think that Diana would simply use option 3: Kill Lord.)

I am in no way, shape, or form giving WW too much credit; nobody... and I mean NOBODY... was more surprised at how well she stood up to him, or how actually even-keel the HtH fight really was (given that she was not going for the kill the way he was), or how good a condition she was in immediately afterwards -- than ME. When I first read that fight, I was certain she was dead when she hit the Earth at FTL; then went "Damn, she's still up... Sh!t, she's still fighting..." "Oooo, girl - don't let him grab you like that, he's gonna -- *snap* -- yeah, do something like that..." "Hell, this is a more even fight than I really thought -- did she just slit his throat? She didn't kill-- no, of course not, she's got mad accuracy skills -- yeah, he's still alive, she wouldn't want to kill him... thought she was gonna do something stupid there, for a second... why don't you just kil-- oh, nevermind... you just did..."

I had followed WW for years, and was skeptical about her being nearly as strong (or a HtH match) as Supes; DC had been saying for years that she was, and took it with a grain of salt... *until* this battle.

*You*, Quan, are simply looking at it through biased, *Quan*-colored glasses. You *don't* actually pay much attention to what some of the more truly reasonable posters write, but rather stick with your own skewed perspective. You accused me before of being a WW fanboy, which I laughed at, 'cus I'm not (I like the character, but am not in love with her the way you appear to be in love with Thor -- not trying to be a smart-ass there, just making a comparison), and if you had asked me about SM vs. WW, say, 6 years ago, I would've been like "Diana better watch her a$$, something serious...". But not after that battle. She clearly demonstrated that if she were fighting on similar terms, she could have very could chances of making wins happen. The only major advantage Clark, contextually, has is that he can subdue her more readily *without* killing her than she can him -- her "subduals" would involve using her weapons and very likely lethal force. He has wider options, but those options don't invalidate hers, by any means...

Originally posted by Konton
Uhm, this isn't happening in a regular matchup against Superman. That's why it's kinda stupid.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure it would. It's not like he wasn't using his super-senses or anything, he specifically was, she just took advantage before there was a chance to react.

He thought she was Doomsday, he wasn't *impaired*. He was specifically fighting at his max and was still thinking during the fight.




And she is really good at avoiding direct blows, and she didn't inflict many in return but the ones she landed smashed his ears, bruised his ribs, and cut his throat.

There were more hits when she fought Doomsdayified Superman, but she won that one too.



You're just trying to spin it to give her far too little. It's not a one-off fight, it's a bunch of them with consistent results (that is, it is *always* close and difficult), and you're trying to turn a win into a loss.


Is it so hard to admit that Superman vs Wonder Woman is normally a close and hard fight when it has, on many occasions, been a close and hard fight? When he views her as Earth's second line of defense and Batman thinks he's the only one who could restraint a rampaging WW? When she fights dead-even with Captain Marvel too?

You can try and twist the facts all you want, but this is a really consistent thing that has been settled in-comic repeatedly. Yes, and his supersenses and what not should be able to alert him to someone sneaking up right behind him. It was ridiculous to think she was right behind him with him being completely unaware of her presence.

I understand she pulled her punches, but it was noted barely. In a direct matchup he's too strong and more durable which is why he wins a solid majority. I've always maintained this stance and I don't see one mindcontrolled fight where WW caught him by completely surprise twice and fled the battle scene as proof WW can hang with him for long in a direct fight.

I never said it would be easy, but Supes connects a few hard good shots and I see her out. If she fights smart, perhaps gets lucky with some of her accessories, I can see her taking a few wins out of ten. That's more than reasonable.

Originally posted by tideoftime
frusty

Dude... seriously?

I'd ask you if you're being for real, but I know you are, which is just... unbelievable...

The whole *point* to the battle, from a "forum" context, was to show how much of a beating she can take and still deal pretty well with the situation at hand -- nobody is saying Supes doesn't have a wider range of invulnerability than she does; of course he does. She only matches him, relatively speaking, in terms of blunt-force trauma. Of course she's going to look worse form wear from his attacks, and he'll look better off after hers. THE POINT is that she stood up to him pretty well, and if SHE were ALSO fighting for the kill AS HE WAS, this could have ended very differently. Her getting him with her bracers showed: skill, speed, finesse, and a desire to *not* kill him, but *subdue* him, if possible. Of course it hurt him (even without his hearing on, it would have, as her bracers are powerful magical artifacts), and of course it wasn't enought to keep him down, 'cus he's frickin' SUPERMAN. I am referring to when she gave him the uber-kick (after dodging his blow and heatvision) and stunned him -- she could have lassoed him or killed him (via tiara) then and there, if she wanted to (she didn't because she A: didn't want to kill her friend, and B: knew lassoing him was just a short-term fix to a long-term problem -- she needed to break Lord's hold over Clark in order to actually free him, permanently). And when she threw her tiara when they were back at Lord's, if her intention had been to kill Clark, it is very likely she could have; even at that point, she could have followed up with killing attacks (using her bracers as bludgeoning weapons, taking advantage of his few seconds of "Oh my god, my thoat is slit", or simply used her tiara again as a hand-held slashing weapon). She comments to Bruce (whom she was relating all this to in her "word boxes" during the battle) about how they "very nearly killed *each other*" (trying to explain why she had to kill Lord to free Clark; even Lord himself had stated that she would either have to kill Clark to stop him, or let Clark kill her. Of course, Lord didn't think that Diana would simply use option 3: Kill Lord.)

I am in no way, shape, or form giving WW too much credit; nobody... and I mean NOBODY... was more surprised at how well she stood up to him, or how actually even-keel the HtH fight really was (given that she was not going for the kill the way he was), or how good a condition she was in immediately afterwards -- than ME. When I first read that fight, I was certain she was dead when she hit the Earth at FTL; then went "Damn, she's still up... Sh!t, she's still fighting..." "Oooo, girl - don't let him grab you like that, he's gonna -- *snap* -- yeah, do something like that..." "Hell, this is a more even fight than I really thought -- did she just slit his throat? She didn't kill-- no, of course not, she's got mad accuracy skills -- yeah, he's still alive, she wouldn't want to kill him... thought she was gonna do something stupid there, for a second... why don't you just kil-- oh, nevermind... you just did..."

I had followed WW for years, and was skeptical about her being nearly as strong (or a HtH match) as Supes; DC had been saying for years that she was, and took it with a grain of salt... *until* this battle.

*You*, Quan, are simply looking at it through biased, *Quan*-colored glasses. You *don't* actually pay much attention to what some of the more truly reasonable posters write, but rather stick with your own skewed perspective. You accused me before of being a WW fanboy, which I laughed at, 'cus I'm not (I like the character, but am not in love with her the way you appear to be in love with Thor -- not trying to be a smart-ass there, just making a comparison), and if you had asked me about SM vs. WW, say, 6 years ago, I would've been like "Diana better watch her a$$, something serious...". But not after that battle. She clearly demonstrated that if she were fighting on similar terms, she could have very could chances of making wins happen. The only major advantage Clark, contextually, has is that he can subdue her more readily *without* killing her than she can him -- her "subduals" would involve using her weapons and very likely lethal force. He has wider options, but those options don't invalidate hers, by any means... She was ko'd once. The only reason she woke up is because of re entry meaning on her own she wouldn't have come to. You want to ignore that to highlight WW's greatness this makes you biased in my book.

She didn't stand up to him that well. She was ko'd once and had her wrist crushed. When the fight started changing is when she snuck up behind him.

He also dodged a lasso attempt in the actual fight head on. The only two times she could have killed him is when she snuck up on him and when he showed up later in front of Maxwell Lord. That's completely different than having the option taking someone head on which is the point you are still trying to make though unsuccessfully.

Again, I hate Superman and would love to say WW fared better in this fight but looking at why she did I can't say it holds much weight at all in a direct fight without him being mindcontrolled.

Quan: The problem with your perception is that *you* are the one taking the parts of the fight *you* like, and focusing on them; I am taking the fight, as a whole, *without* any bias of any kind (as I said before -- NOBODY was more surprised by how well she stood up than me) and she most *certainly* would have gained consciousness on her own; she has fought Superman before, on several occasions, under various states of influence/control, and she has withstood his assaults (been badly hurt? Of course. But she has withstood powerful blows from him before). The heat of re-entry was simply the *narrative* involved in her gaining consciousness -- otherwise, her impacting the Earth at FTL would have knocked her out again, within that reasoning. You focus on her getting him with her bracers, but she could have *also* made valid attempts to kill him *after* the kick she gave him (that stunned him as she herself had been stunned), as well as the obvious instance at Lord's.

As far as Supes altered state -- he was *not* being mind-controlled/having his actions directed; he was perceiving reality via a mental illusion. He was in complete control of his actions in the sense of being aware of what/how he would fight, not having his actions "remote-controlled", or some-such, mentally. Was he fighting as smartly as he could? No. But neither was Diana.

You are being intellectually dishonest, Quan, and after taking a few minutes to look at previous posts of yours, I can see that isn't something new for you. I don't doubt that you can put forth a good arguement -- a number of them are not only well-stated, but often correct. But "often" doesn't mean "always", and your instances of bias and intellectual dishonesty make for a huge flaw in your debates.

You have been given *very* valid counter arguements about not only this particular fight, but had other scans of SM vs. WW battles presented, in other threads, and often you don't comment when someone makes a truly valid point that contradicts yours. While you could then honestly say you never backed down on your point, it also means that you never followed through on truly *evaluating* what was presented in some of the counter-posts. And that is the ultimate indicator of intellectual dishonesty.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Quan: The problem with your perception is that *you* are the one taking the parts of the fight *you* like, and focusing on them; I am taking the fight, as a whole, *without* any bias of any kind (as I said before -- NOBODY was more surprised by how well she stood up than me) and she most *certainly* would have gained consciousness on her own; she has fought Superman before, on several occasions, under various states of influence/control, and she has withstood his assaults (been badly hurt? Of course. But she has withstood powerful blows from him before). The heat of re-entry was simply the *narrative* involved in her gaining consciousness -- otherwise, her impacting the Earth at FTL would have knocked her out again, within that reasoning. You focus on her getting him with her bracers, but she could have *also* made valid attempts to kill him *after* the kick she gave him (that stunned him as she herself had been stunned), as well as the obvious instance at Lord's.

As far as Supes altered state -- he was *not* being mind-controlled/having his actions directed; he was perceiving reality via a mental illusion. He was in complete control of his actions in the sense of being aware of what/how he would fight, not having his actions "remote-controlled", or some-such, mentally. Was he fighting as smartly as he could? No. But neither was Diana.

You are being intellectually dishonest, Quan, and after taking a few minutes to look at previous posts of yours, I can see that isn't something new for you. I don't doubt that you can put forth a good arguement -- a number of them are not only well-stated, but often correct. But "often" doesn't mean "always", and your instances of bias and intellectual dishonesty make for a huge flaw in your debates.

You have been given *very* valid counter arguements about not only this particular fight, but had other scans of SM vs. WW battles presented, in other threads, and often you don't comment when someone makes a truly valid point that contradicts yours. While you could then honestly say you never backed down on your point, it also means that you never followed through on truly *evaluating* what was presented in some of the counter-posts. And that is the ultimate indicator of intellectual dishonesty. I already told you I hate Superman. so saying I am showing bias here towards Superman of all characters is well off the mark.

Yeah, like I said due to the events and re entry she was able to re engage him. In a forum fight she was out.

My point is having his perceptions altered every so slightly adds to the fact we've never seen WW catch him completely off guard by sneaking up behind him in the manner she did.

Again, I hate Superman so what do I have to gain by giving him more credit than he's due.

Your opinion, but then again you happen to really like WW while I hate one of the characters in this thread and it isn't WW.

Originally posted by tideoftime
Quan: The problem with your perception is that *you* are the one taking the parts of the fight *you* like, and focusing on them; I am taking the fight, as a whole, *without* any bias of any kind (as I said before -- NOBODY was more surprised by how well she stood up than me) and she most *certainly* would have gained consciousness on her own; she has fought Superman before, on several occasions, under various states of influence/control, and she has withstood his assaults (been badly hurt? Of course. But she has withstood powerful blows from him before). The heat of re-entry was simply the *narrative* involved in her gaining consciousness -- otherwise, her impacting the Earth at FTL would have knocked her out again, within that reasoning. You focus on her getting him with her bracers, but she could have *also* made valid attempts to kill him *after* the kick she gave him (that stunned him as she herself had been stunned), as well as the obvious instance at Lord's.

As far as Supes altered state -- he was *not* being mind-controlled/having his actions directed; he was perceiving reality via a mental illusion. He was in complete control of his actions in the sense of being aware of what/how he would fight, not having his actions "remote-controlled", or some-such, mentally. Was he fighting as smartly as he could? No. But neither was Diana.

You are being intellectually dishonest, Quan, and after taking a few minutes to look at previous posts of yours, I can see that isn't something new for you. I don't doubt that you can put forth a good arguement -- a number of them are not only well-stated, but often correct. But "often" doesn't mean "always", and your instances of bias and intellectual dishonesty make for a huge flaw in your debates.

You have been given *very* valid counter arguements about not only this particular fight, but had other scans of SM vs. WW battles presented, in other threads, and often you don't comment when someone makes a truly valid point that contradicts yours. While you could then honestly say you never backed down on your point, it also means that you never followed through on truly *evaluating* what was presented in some of the counter-posts. And that is the ultimate indicator of intellectual dishonesty.

Forget it. Though he really hates Superman and is always biased against DC there is still one more thing he hates more then anything else.

Woman.

Maybe because Squirrel Girl beat Thanos .

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Forget it. Though he really hates Superman and is always biased against DC there is still one more thing he hates more then anything else.

Woman.

Maybe because Squirrel Girl beat Thanos . Quit derailing the thread. We are discussing these two characters and that's not even canon anyways.

^Prove that it aint canon.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^Prove that it aint canon. I am not going to derail every thread with your actions to attack Thanos simply because you're upset he's powerful.

^ok so you were lying and you have no prove at all. Confession accepted.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
^ok so you were lying and you have no prove at all. Confession accepted. I answered you in another thread about this very thing. You attempting to derail a thread because you're upset is only proof you're upset.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I already told you I hate Superman. so saying I am showing bias here towards Superman of all characters is well off the mark.

Yeah, like I said due to the events and re entry she was able to re engage him. In a forum fight she was out.

My point is having his perceptions altered every so slightly adds to the fact we've never seen WW catch him completely off guard by sneaking up behind him in the manner she did.

Again, I hate Superman so what do I have to gain by giving him more credit than he's due.

Your opinion, but then again you happen to really like WW while I hate one of the characters in this thread and it isn't WW.

Why wouldnt everything that happened in that comic not happen in a forum fight?

It was Superman, the only difference was he thought he was fighting Doomsday and he wasnt holding back.

So basically, that sneak up attack that Wonder Woman did, it would also work in a forum battle.

By the way, Wonder Woman wasnt the only one doing sneak attack. Before the fight even started SUPERMAN was the one that attacked an unaware Wonder Woman first, grabbing her neck, flying her to space.

Originally posted by carver9
Why wouldnt everything that happened in that comic not happen in a forum fight?

It was Superman, the only difference was he thought he was fighting Doomsday and he wasnt holding back.

So basically, that sneak up attack that Wonder Woman did, it would also work in a forum battle.

By the way, Wonder Woman wasnt the only one doing sneak attack. Before the fight even started SUPERMAN was the one that attacked an unaware Wonder Woman first, grabbing her neck, flying her to space. Because his mindset wouldn't be altered. That's a huge difference. He also isn't fuming at the mouth to avenge Lois.

Not likely to work on Superman in his normal state of mind.

That was coming right after her not sneaking up behind her.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because his mindset wouldn't be altered. That's a huge difference. He also isn't fuming at the mouth to avenge Lois.

Not likely to work on Superman in his normal state of mind.

That was coming right after her not sneaking up behind her.

If he couldnt take her out quickly going all out, what makes you think with CIS on he'll have a better chance, and again, Wonder Woman was holding back.

Superman was in his normal state of mind, he was just pissed and was willing to kill (Doomsday/Diana).

If he wasnt in his right state of mind, why would he stop, close his eyes, and try to listen for a heart beat? What enraged person would do that?

Him grabbing Diana throat (while she was talking to max lord) and burning her face is a surprise attack. He attacked her while she was talking to max and carried her to space while choking/burning her face.

Originally posted by carver9
If he couldnt take her out quickly going all out, what makes you think with CIS on he'll have a better chance, and again, Wonder Woman was holding back.

Superman was in his normal state of mind, he was just pissed and was willing to kill (Doomsday/Diana).

If he wasnt in his right state of mind, why would he stop, close his eyes, and try to listen for a heart beat? What enraged person would do that?

Him grabbing Diana throat (while she was talking to max lord) and burning her face is a surprise attack. He attacked her while she was talking to max and carried her to space while choking/burning her face. Barely, and she had free shots on him I don't see popping up in a forum match here.

Seeing DD in place of WW isn't his normal frame of mind. Thinking Lois was just killed isn't his normal frame of mind.

Saying he wasn't enraged during the entire fight is ridiculous.

It caugt her off guard but it wasn't a cheapshot from behind.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I answered you in another thread about this very thing. You attempting to derail a thread because you're upset is only proof you're upset.

Yes, you lied there too and you were proven wrong. It's canon for Marvel and for Thanos, you might disagree with Marvel.

Reread the WW vs Superman fight in OMAC. Supes was mindcontrolled and enraged and WW hold back, it was obvious that both are capable of killing each other. The Tiara throw proved as much.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Barely, and she had free shots on him I don't see popping up in a forum match here.

Seeing DD in place of WW isn't his normal frame of mind. Thinking Lois was just killed isn't his normal frame of mind.

Saying he wasn't enraged during the entire fight is ridiculous.

It caugt her off guard but it wasn't a cheapshot from behind.

It wasnt a pop up from behind kind of deal like you are making it. He punched her to the earth, he flew back, froze her, went to pick up a rock and she used her speed to invade it. He stopped to see where she was and she tagged that ear. Superior speed/using it in a battle isnt evading, its called fighting, using your abilities to the best. Thats like saying that since flash attacks you from the front/side/left/right, due to his superior speed, then he evading that person.

Yeah, he seen Wonder Woman as Doomsday but again, he was still thinking, avoiding, and even listening for a heart beat so that he can attack his enemy.

I never said that he wasnt enraged but he wasnt enraged to the point where he didnt use his abilities like he should because if so, again, why stand still and listen out for a heart beat from someone that is completely out of mind and foaming at the mouth?

He caught her off guard and burned her and flew her to the sun. Choking her and burning her is just as bad as her smashing his ears and his was actually worse. At least he was prepared for an attack whereas she wasnt and got blitzed and choked and burned.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Yes, you lied there too and you were proven wrong. It's canon for Marvel and for Thanos, you might disagree with Marvel.

Reread the WW vs Superman fight in OMAC. Supes was mindcontrolled and enraged and WW hold back, it was obvious that both are capable of killing each other. The Tiara throw proved as much. No, it really isn't. If you want to try and prove it by all means do so.

I never said WW couldn't kill Superman. Wow, I actually said she had an opportunity to do so. Way to miss that.

Originally posted by carver9
It wasnt a pop up from behind kind of deal like you are making it. He punched her to the earth, he flew back, froze her, went to pick up a rock and she used her speed to invade it. He stopped to see where she was and she tagged that ear. Superior speed/using it in a battle isnt evading, its called fighting, using your abilities to the best. Thats like saying that since flash attacks you from the front/side/left/right, due to his superior speed, then he evading that person.

Yeah, he seen Wonder Woman as Doomsday but again, he was still thinking, avoiding, and even listening for a heart beat so that he can attack his enemy.

I never said that he wasnt enraged but he wasnt enraged to the point where he didnt use his abilities like he should because if so, again, why stand still and listen out for a heart beat from someone that is completely out of mind and foaming at the mouth?

He caught her off guard and burned her and flew her to the sun. Choking her and burning her is just as bad as her smashing his ears and his was actually worse. At least he was prepared for an attack whereas she wasnt and got blitzed and choked and burned. Mindcontrol. Loss of control, utter fury is why I don't see this happening again.

I understand this, but his mind was still altered.

The point is he wouldn't have lost her if he wasn't so consumed with killing his opponent because he was consumed with grief/rage.

Not at all. He directly attacked her while she snuck up from behind him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, it really isn't. If you want to try and prove it by all means do so.

I never said WW couldn't kill Superman. Wow, I actually said she had an opportunity to do so. Way to miss that.

Mindcontrol. Loss of control, utter fury is why I don't see this happening again.

I understand this, but his mind was still altered.

The point is he wouldn't have lost her if he wasn't so consumed with killing his opponent because he was consumed with grief/rage.

Not at all. He directly attacked her while she snuck up from behind him.

Superman was thinking to himself, so mind control wasnt the issue. Enraged, yes, I agree, mind controlled, naah.

Even though he was pissed, again, he was using his heat vision, strength, speed, and senses.

Why wouldnt he have lost her if he wasnt angry? Are you implying that his hearing would have been more enhanced if he wasnt pissed? She blitzed him, and it really doesnt matter if she blitzed him from the front, back, left, right, its a blitz and she is more than capable of doing it again since she has superior speed.

He directly attacked a Wonder Woman that had her attentions on max lord. Thats called a sneak attack, no matter how you put it and his sneak attack was much worse. She didnt even get the chance to get back on her feat before being punched back to earth.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman was thinking to himself, so mind control wasnt the issue. Enraged, yes, I agree, mind controlled, naah.

Even though he was pissed, again, he was using his heat vision, strength, speed, and senses.

Why wouldnt he have lost her if he wasnt angry? Are you implying that his hearing would have been more enhanced if he wasnt pissed? She blitzed him, and it really doesnt matter if she blitzed him from the front, back, left, right, its a blitz and she is more than capable of doing it again since she has superior speed.

He directly attacked a Wonder Woman that had her attentions on max lord. Thats called a sneak attack, no matter how you put it and his sneak attack was much worse. She didnt even get the chance to get back on her feat before being punched back to earth. Seeing DD and putting him into a killer state of mind isn't controlling his actions it's setting the mood.

I know.

I am implying he wouldn't fight like an absolute maniac and leave himself wide open to these attacks.

Coming head on after someone when they can see you isn't the same thing as sneaking up behind someone with a free hit. Sorry, it's not.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Seeing DD and putting him into a killer state of mind isn't controlling his actions it's setting the mood.

I know.

I am implying he wouldn't fight like an absolute maniac and leave himself wide open to these attacks.

Coming head on after someone when they can see you isn't the same thing as sneaking up behind someone with a free hit. Sorry, it's not.

Seeing DD and putting him in a killer state uped his stats and made him not hold back and Wonder Woman was still ok at the end of the day and came out on top.

He wasnt fighting like a maniac though.A maniac does not try to listen for someones heat vision and a maniac doesnt avoid a lasso coming at the or freeze someone, then pick up a bolder to finish it off.

Coming head on to someone that wasnt prepared for an attack again, is about the same and if I'm quicker than someone and I can afford to get behind them to turn the battle more into my favor, then I'm going to do it. You do know that fighting isnt fair? Especially since he blitzed her, grabbed her throat, and then heat visioned her face and THEN tried to throw her in the sun. I dont consider that fair game either.

Originally posted by carver9
Seeing DD and putting him in a killer state uped his stats and made him not hold back and Wonder Woman was still ok at the end of the day and came out on top.

He wasnt fighting like a maniac though.A maniac does not try to listen for someones heat vision and a maniac doesnt avoid a lasso coming at the or freeze someone, then pick up a bolder to finish it off.

Coming head on to someone that wasnt prepared for an attack again, is about the same and if I'm quicker than someone and I can afford to get behind them to turn the battle more into my favor, then I'm going to do it. You do know that fighting isnt fair? Especially since he blitzed her, grabbed her throat, and then heat visioned her face and THEN tried to throw her in the sun. I dont consider that fair game either. I do agree that this was an impressive showing for WW but she still would have lost if not for re entry waking her back up.

he was a maniac using his senses to pinpoint his enemy. If he were focused and what not I don't see him as losing her in the first place.

Not at all.

Attacking someone from behind is just different than tacking someone head on.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I do agree that this was an impressive showing for WW but she still would have lost if not for re entry waking her back up.

he was a maniac using his senses to pinpoint his enemy. If he were focused and what not I don't see him as losing her in the first place.

Not at all.

Attacking someone from behind is just different than tacking someone head on.

It shouldnt be an impressive showing for Wondy since she has done this more than once.

Why wouldnt he have lost her since she does have Superior speed? Can you prove that he wouldnt have lost her if his mindset was at its average?

Like I said before and I'm going to continue to say, fighting isnt fair. If I have superior speed, then off course, I'm going to use it in battle and if that lead to me punching someone in the back of the head, doing a back nut kick, etc... then of course, I'm going to do it.

Her using her speed against Superman is irrelevant to this battle because if thats the case, Superman blitzing her to the sun shouldnt be brought up.

Originally posted by carver9
It shouldnt be an impressive showing for Wondy since she has done this more than once.

Why wouldnt he have lost her since she does have Superior speed? Can you prove that he wouldnt have lost her if his mindset was at its average?

Like I said before and I'm going to continue to say, fighting isnt fair. If I have superior speed, then off course, I'm going to use it in battle and if that lead to me punching someone in the back of the head, doing a back nut kick, etc... then of course, I'm going to do it.

Her using her speed against Superman is irrelevant to this battle because if thats the case, Superman blitzing her to the sun shouldnt be brought up. It's going to be competitive no doubt but Supes clearly has the edge in a direct fight.

When has it ever happened like this before with his normal frame of mind?

I never said it was. His mindset made him open to this attack.

You brought it up. She saw Superman's attacks unlike Superman being unaware of her attack.

surfer amps superman

Originally posted by psycho gundam
surfer amps superman That's definitely doable.

Seems to me they're all more/less close enough in power for 4 > 3.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It's going to be competitive no doubt but Supes clearly has the edge in a direct fight.

Yes, an edge. Far from 'he would win quickly' like you were saying.

When he does fight normally he also doesn't attack nearly as ruthlessly and in such rapid succession. He had the initial advantage of starting with a full-power no holding back blitz when her guard was barely up and he couldn't win then, she made him break off then regained the initiative. A more cautious normal approach is going to be no faster.



Prove it. His guard wasn't down, he was actively looking for his foe. He guarded against plenty of other attacks. There's nothing preventing her from pulling that on a less enraged Superman, it's her stealth that let her pull it off.


Also you still are ignoring all their other confrontations which tend to be about as even, if less mutually damaging.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, an edge. Far from 'he would win quickly' like you were saying.

When he does fight normally he also doesn't attack nearly as ruthlessly and in such rapid succession. He had the initial advantage of starting with a full-power no holding back blitz when her guard was barely up and he couldn't win then, she made him break off then regained the initiative. A more cautious normal approach is going to be no faster.



Prove it. His guard wasn't down, he was actively looking for his foe. He guarded against plenty of other attacks. There's nothing preventing her from pulling that on a less enraged Superman, it's her stealth that let her pull it off.


Also you still are ignoring all their other confrontations which tend to be about as even, if less mutually damaging. In a direct battle he can win quickly. She isn't durable enough to take too many direct hits from him. My opinion has remained the same.

I disagree. I feel supes fighting in character more than going for the kill not leaving himself as wide open as he was during this fight.

While looking he wasn't bracing for an attack. Are you saying she can take a lot of superman punishment despite this showing proving otherwise?

Team 2 wins. 3 vs 3 would be a fair battle but 3 vs 4 its not regarding theirs powers!

Originally posted by quanchi112
In a direct battle he can win quickly. She isn't durable enough to take too many direct hits from him. My opinion has remained the same.

That was a direct battle, or did you miss him trying to throw WW into the sun?

Note he has surprise starting out. WW was negotiating with Max when he had Superman blitz her as speed. Nice of you to absolutely ignore Superman's surprise advantage in the fight and act like it was totally even to begin with, which it wasn't.


Let's go past the bracer-to-the-ears shot of the second bit of the fight too. The first page he was off balance and she got him. The second page, he was no longer confused, he was looking right at her and throwing attacks, and she delt with a couple of them before the wrist-break.


I will also note her blows clearly took their toll as well. Look at the wrist-snapping page- she kicks him, and he's at the end of a furrow maybe a hundred feet away. She just stands there. Next page, she fixes her wrist with her bracer, then sends the birds as a distraction. Superman stands up still clearly holding his side from an earlier attack. 100 feet away and he's hurt enough she can spend 5-10 seconds just recovering and thinking.

In that exchange, he clearly took lasting damage too, even not counting the surprise shot which he seemed to have shrugged off. Does that mean "he can't take many hits from her"?


Diana's also direct-battled Superman when his strength is amped. She blocked most of his blows of course, because she's really good at that. Her defense is top-notch, which you seem to ignore.



Your opinion seems to be cherry-picking and viewing fights in the worst possible light. Even though, hey, she won based on her own skill. She broke his grip based on her skill. She got out of his sight based on her skill after he freeze-breathed her. She pounded him based on her skill, she dodged blows, she inflicted real damage in return, and at the end, neither of them were ready to drop.




Superman was still dodging shots, avoiding the lasso, and pretty much fighting as normal, intelligently. He also was unable to take her out during his initial rush even after he got past her bracers, the really tricky part to deal with defensively.


And, get this, in other fights, For Tomorrow, League of One, or so on, he avoids her attacks *no better*.

Your answer to why "No holds back, no skill reduction" Superman takes a lot of damage is "make stuff up without evidence", there's no sign his defense was impaired and he was in fact visibly actively defending. The comics disagree with you, deal with it.




Lesse, stangled, point-blank heatvision to the face, blocking his eyes with her bare hands, being punched from near the sun to Earth at full power, freeze-breathed, wrist snapped... still in battle shape and continues to hero the rest of the day? Yep. That amount of damage didn't stop her from fighting, put her in the hospital, or even make her take the day off.

Originally posted by Q99


That was a direct battle, or did you miss him trying to throw WW into the sun?

Note he has surprise starting out. WW was negotiating with Max when he had Superman blitz her as speed. Nice of you to absolutely ignore Superman's surprise advantage in the fight and act like it was totally even to begin with, which it wasn't.


Let's go past the bracer-to-the-ears shot of the second bit of the fight too. The first page he was off balance and she got him. The second page, he was no longer confused, he was looking right at her and throwing attacks, and she delt with a couple of them before the wrist-break.


I will also note her blows clearly took their toll as well. Look at the wrist-snapping page- she kicks him, and he's at the end of a furrow maybe a hundred feet away. She just stands there. Next page, she fixes her wrist with her bracer, then sends the birds as a distraction. Superman stands up still clearly holding his side from an earlier attack. 100 feet away and he's hurt enough she can spend 5-10 seconds just recovering and thinking.

In that exchange, he clearly took lasting damage too, even not counting the surprise shot which he seemed to have shrugged off. Does that mean "he can't take many hits from her"?


Diana's also direct-battled Superman when his strength is amped. She blocked most of his blows of course, because she's really good at that. Her defense is top-notch, which you seem to ignore.



Your opinion seems to be cherry-picking and viewing fights in the worst possible light. Even though, hey, she won based on her own skill. She broke his grip based on her skill. She got out of his sight based on her skill after he freeze-breathed her. She pounded him based on her skill, she dodged blows, she inflicted real damage in return, and at the end, neither of them were ready to drop.




Superman was still dodging shots, avoiding the lasso, and pretty much fighting as normal, intelligently. He also was unable to take her out during his initial rush even after he got past her bracers, the really tricky part to deal with defensively.


And, get this, in other fights, For Tomorrow, League of One, or so on, he avoids her attacks *no better*.

Your answer to why "No holds back, no skill reduction" Superman takes a lot of damage is "make stuff up without evidence", there's no sign his defense was impaired and he was in fact visibly actively defending. The comics disagree with you, deal with it.




Lesse, stangled, point-blank heatvision to the face, blocking his eyes with her bare hands, being punched from near the sun to Earth at full power, freeze-breathed, wrist snapped... still in battle shape and continues to hero the rest of the day? Yep. That amount of damage didn't stop her from fighting, put her in the hospital, or even make her take the day off. Yes, the beginning of it was a direct mano e mano battle but WW turned the tide when she started using sneak attacks.

Yes, it's still not a legit attack but he didn't sneak up behind her and attack her which is completely different.

I already admitted WW can fight Superman, but with a free shot like she did and not for as long as one might suspect. She quickly fled the scene and evaded him.

She was already ko'd once. You're splitting hairs here.

She won due to a cheapshot imo and from evading him not fighting him directly on.

Her attack didn't stop him from fighting either, but she still left the scene.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Yes, the beginning of it was a direct mano e mano battle but WW turned the tide when she started using sneak attacks. > Your use of "sneak" attacks gives the connotation that her maneuver was somehow "invalid", in terms of the context of the fight -- it wasn't. Her skill/speed/finesse allowed her to get the drop on him. Period. You may not like the move because it "doesn't fit your narrow parameters of combat definitions", but it is, in fact, a perfectly valid move, in the context of the battle (i.e. I am trying to subdue him without killing him).

Yes, it's still not a legit attack but he didn't sneak up behind her and attack her which is completely different. > Actually, that is exactly what he did, at the beginning; that she was fast enough to still block his initial HV attack, even though he was already moving at speed, doesn't invalidate that -- it just shows her edge in combat speed. In the latter part of the battle, he is aware that she is still in the combat vicinity, just as she was aware that he was behind her at the beginning. It is very similar, indeed. He got her in the beginning, via her talking, and she got him in the middle, via combat speed/finesse. Think about it, Quan. Be *truly* objective. If you are, then you'll see the mirror similarities (which in a story context were obviously intentional).

I already admitted WW can fight Superman, but with a free shot like she did and not for as long as one might suspect. She quickly fled the scene and evaded him. > You keep saying "free shot", and such, but it *wasn't* a "free shot" -- it was an "earned" shot via her speed and combat skills (and, of course, being armed with her bracers). Via the circumstances of the fight, it was perfectly legit. In a different setting, such a maneuver could still be accomplished (such as when he was initially taking her into space -- she could have slammed his head while his arms were (admittedly) busy strangling her, just as she used her thumbs to eye-gouge during his HV attack).

She was already ko'd once. You're splitting hairs here. > No, Quan -- YOU are the one splitting hairs. NO ONE is saying Supes wouldn't take a majority of wins. Of course he'll take 6+ against her. Her getting knocked out for a brief moment doesn't invalidate that. YOU are the one taking that out of context -- her other instances of having him stunned/in a compromised position are JUST AS VALID, in a forum fight, AS HIM KNOCKING HER BACK TO EARTH.

She won due to a cheapshot imo and from evading him not fighting him directly on. > If by "cheap shot", you mean using either her combat skills/smarts (via the bracer attack) or one of her signature moves (tiara throw to wound/incapacitate/decapitate), then you are totally misusing the term. Completely. Both of those moves are perfectly valid in terms of her character/power-skill set, and by definition would be effective vs. Clark due to her speed/strength backing mystical artifacts.

Her attack didn't stop him from fighting either, but she still left the scene. > She "left the scene" NOT AS A RETREAT FROM BATTLE, but to deal with the villain of the story; that, by related definition, would simply be a mild form of PIS, in terms of a forum fight; otherwise, when Clark was in the ground after her kicking him, she could have bound him with the lasso, or attacked him with her tiara then (the latter being for the kill); instead, she continued the narrative of the story (by creating a brief distraction via one of her more fringe abilities) so she could handle Lord. In the context of the forum, she was in fact fighting *2* opponents -- Supes *and* Lord. That Lord's ability didn't affect her simply demonstrated her resistance to mental influences. That she was able to fight Superman, survive his attacks and get in some good counterblows/defensive moves, while under mild PIS/CIS (don't want to kill my friend while he thinks I am somebody else and just killed his wife), is actually rather impressive. If you were *truly* being objective, Quan, you would see/understand that.

I really don't see how Sacrifice applies to this fight at all. That was a completely different Superman to the one that would be in this fight.

All in all, though, i'd say an even split, with it possibly going either way.

^remove one fighter from team two and i agree with the even split. Till then those 4 will take an easy majority against the 3 from team 1.

Originally posted by tideoftime
What?

Team 1 would win seen as they have SS and Thor that have barely been mentioned in this thread. SS is just about the strongest of all heralds, probably more powerfull than the Fallen One by now, and is above Firelord who is the all around most powerfull character in his own team. Add current Thor to that and it's over. They just have too much versality and energy output.

Captain Marvel and Black Adam can both tank pretty much anything team 1 can throw at them. They have physical attributes that enable them to stalemate Superman in the least, insane magical resistance in the case of Thor, and their durability is already pretty high in the first place. The both of them are also used to working together as well - as well as trying to kill each other. If they both double team on a single foe on team 1, that person is in trouble.

So yea, even with a surprise rush against an unprepared Diana and setting the tone of the battle, he couldn't win.



And what's your excuse for once he recovered and was starting to go on the offensive against, then was knocked down for about as long as she spent in her crater?




Yet, he completely failed to do so in the first scene when he had the advantage, or in any of their other clashes.

This isn't about "suspect", this is about what's been shown repeatedly, just admit it.



She hit him so he was staying down in a crater, made sure he was down for several seconds so he couldn't attack her back or anything, then went for Max. He was non-fighting for no less time than she was from the orbital hit. Guess it was a 'KO' too.

Also? She's fought him on even terms before and since.


You're pretty blatantly misrepresenting things and grasping at straws, ignoring all other fights, and just assuming that 'Oh, Clark could win quickly' even a no-hold back Clark with a surprise advantage trying to win quickly.... failed.

The comics show how the fight goes on many occasions, twisting things is just pointless. You're just assuming it's your way without any evidence.


Originally posted by -Pr-
I really don't see how Sacrifice applies to this fight at all. That was a completely different Superman to the one that would be in this fight.

All in all, though, i'd say an even split, with it possibly going either way.

How so? That was modern Superman fighting at his max.

Originally posted by Q99
How so? That was modern Superman fighting at his max.

not really.

OWAW, or the Elite? Yes. Sacrifice? No. Completely different circumstances. It's been shown on more than one occasion that Superman getting mad makes him a less effective fighter.

and for the love of all that is holy, please don't compare OWAW to Sacrifice.

Originally posted by -Pr-
not really.

OWAW, or the Elite? Yes. Sacrifice? No. Completely different circumstances. It's been shown on more than one occasion that Superman getting mad makes him a less effective fighter.

and for the love of all that is holy, please don't compare OWAW to Sacrifice.

He uses his powers in combination in Sacrifice just as much as he does in OWAW, and he was just fighting probes anyway.


The Elite is probably his single best skill showing ever, but honestly if you want to talk about how he's shown using his powers in a fight, it's probably Elite > Sacrifice > OWAW, and in any case it's still on the high-side of his showings. It's >> most of his normal fights in terms of using speed, heatvision, and strength in combination. Superman was not fighting dumb.

It's pretty impressive the lengths people'll go to not count it. It's not even like it's a one-off thing, Superman and Wonder Woman fight all the time and it's always close. Even if you think he fights better calm, he loses the overwhelming strength thing and it's still pretty close. Quanchi112's assertions of a quick win are just not borne out by the comics.

Originally posted by Q99
So yea, even with a surprise rush against an unprepared Diana and setting the tone of the battle, he couldn't win.



And what's your excuse for once he recovered and was starting to go on the offensive against, then was knocked down for about as long as she spent in her crater?




Yet, he completely failed to do so in the first scene when he had the advantage, or in any of their other clashes.

This isn't about "suspect", this is about what's been shown repeatedly, just admit it.



She hit him so he was staying down in a crater, made sure he was down for several seconds so he couldn't attack her back or anything, then went for Max. He was non-fighting for no less time than she was from the orbital hit. Guess it was a 'KO' too.

Also? She's fought him on even terms before and since.


You're pretty blatantly misrepresenting things and grasping at straws, ignoring all other fights, and just assuming that 'Oh, Clark could win quickly' even a no-hold back Clark with a surprise advantage trying to win quickly.... failed.

The comics show how the fight goes on many occasions, twisting things is just pointless. You're just assuming it's your way without any evidence.




How so? That was modern Superman fighting at his max. If it wasn't for the atmosphere waking her up she would have lost.

Context.

My point is even though he attacked her right from the get go this kind of attack isn't comparable to a cheapshot from the backside. It was a free hit.

Superman ko'd her so if he doesn't hold back I can see this occurring again all he needs is a few punches and out she goes.

I am not grasping at straws you are forgetting he basically already won the fight when he ko'd her. Due to the events taking place she woke up otherwise she was defeated and pretty quickly just like I've always stated can happen.

Originally posted by Q99
He uses his powers in combination in Sacrifice just as much as he does in OWAW, and he was just fighting probes anyway.


The Elite is probably his single best skill showing ever, but honestly if you want to talk about how he's shown using his powers in a fight, it's probably Elite > Sacrifice > OWAW, and in any case it's still on the high-side of his showings. It's >> most of his normal fights in terms of using speed, heatvision, and strength in combination. Superman was not fighting dumb.

It's pretty impressive the lengths people'll go to not count it. It's not even like it's a one-off thing, Superman and Wonder Woman fight all the time and it's always close. Even if you think he fights better calm, he loses the overwhelming strength thing and it's still pretty close. Quanchi112's assertions of a quick win are just not borne out by the comics. I said they have been shown to have pretty good fights but the fact remains if Superman connects a few solid strikes he can end it quickly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What?

What are you "what-ing"? I posted counterpoints to your statements after each of your statements, with a > as a breaker. What is there to "what"? (Though I don't know why it posted in bold -- unless my cursor somehow hit something by accident, that isn't something I did).

OWAW all-out Superman would completly destroy Wonder Woman, even moreso than Sacrifice Superman who forcibly dragged her to the Sun and then one-punch knocked her out across the solar system.

I'd give Team 2 the slight edge, in normal circumstances and Team 1, when all-out.

Team 2.

Originally posted by tideoftime
What are you "what-ing"? I posted counterpoints to your statements after each of your statements, with a > as a breaker. What is there to "what"? (Though I don't know why it posted in bold -- unless my cursor somehow hit something by accident, that isn't something I did). It was all one big quote which ended up being a jumbled mess. I am not sifting through one giant quote with my response contained in the same quotations as yours.

Originally posted by quanchi112
It was all one big quote which ended up being a jumbled mess. I am not sifting through one giant quote with my response contained in the same quotations as yours.

LOL!!!!!!!!!

Oh, my goodness...

Now, *that* is a measure of some grade-A crap right there.

It isn't a "jumbled mess", Quan; your posts are in the order you posted them, and my response to each individual post is right afterward. (The only peculiar thing is how it got "bolded"; I have no idea how that happened. But otherwise, it isn't difficult to read). Each of your individual statements is followed by my individual response. That isn't tricky, and keeps the flow of specific response... well... specific. While I may have accused you of intellectual dishonesty, I honestly didn't think you were intellectually lazy, as well. (Not trying to be a smart-ass with that last statement -- I am honestly surprised at your evasion on this point; I actually thought, given some of your better posts in other threads, that you were better than that. I may be mistaken...)

Originally posted by tideoftime
LOL!!!!!!!!!

Oh, my goodness...

Now, *that* is a measure of some grade-A crap right there.

It isn't a "jumbled mess", Quan; your posts are in the order you posted them, and my response to each individual post is right afterward. (The only peculiar thing is how it got "bolded"; I have no idea how that happened. But otherwise, it isn't difficult to read). Each of your individual statements is followed by my individual response. That isn't tricky, and keeps the flow of specific response... well... specific. While I may have accused you of intellectual dishonesty, I honestly didn't think you were intellectually lazy, as well. (Not trying to be a smart-ass with that last statement -- I am honestly surprised at your evasion on this point; I actually thought, given some of your better posts in other threads, that you were better than that. I may be mistaken...) If you clean it up and re post it I will read and it respond accordingly. The ball is in your court. Your mangled mess so fix it and let the discussion proceed from here.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Sacrifice Superman completely destroyed Wonder Woman? I think I must have read a different fight.

He didn't completely destroy her. Look superior in the physical sense (ie. strength and speed)? Sure. OMGWTF stomp her? No.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Sacrifice Superman completely destroyed Wonder Woman? I think I must have read a different fight.
If it's the one where Superman was fighting a completly different opponent in his mind, forcefully dragged her to the Sun, one-punch knocked her unconscious back to Earth, snapped her wrist and the only instances of her seriously hurting him being either due to PIS (the hearing part) or the already mentioned fact that he was playing a different scenario in his head then yes, it's the same fight.

Originally posted by carver9
Same can be said for Wonder Woman.

Amazo Wonder Woman that stalemated/nearly would annihilate Superman. The point is Superman can ko her with an all out punch. This fight showed us he can end it very quickly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The point is Superman can ko her with an all out punch. This fight showed us he can end it very quickly.

And what you are failing to understand yet again is that Superman was close to the sun which gave him an amp which allowed him to ko her for a second.

Konvikt koed Superman for a second but failed to drop Wonder Woman so again, your logic fails and Wonder Woman fought the AMPED konvikt. The one that was>the konvikt Superman fought.

Originally posted by carver9
And what you are failing to understand yet again is that Superman was close to the sun which gave him an amp which allowed him to ko her for a second.

Konvikt koed Superman for a second but failed to drop Wonder Woman so again, your logic fails and Wonder Woman fought the AMPED konvikt. The one that was>the konvikt Superman fought. I don't think the writer recognized the sun amp.

WW also didn't offer up her chin to Konvikt making this another irrelevant example.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I don't think the writer recognized the sun amp.

WW also didn't offer up her chin to Konvikt making this another irrelevant example.

When did Superman offer Konvikt his chin? And if so it still wouldnt be a caught off guard punch since he was well aware of it coming since he did offer (as you say) Konvikt his chin.

What proof do you have that the writer didnt recognize the amp since its common knowledge that the closer Superman is to the sun the stronger he is?

Originally posted by carver9
When did Superman offer Konvikt his chin? And if so it still wouldnt be a caught off guard punch since he was well aware of it coming since he did offer (as you say) Konvikt his chin.

What proof do you have that the writer didnt recognize the amp since its common knowledge that the closer Superman is to the sun the stronger he is? Because he wasn't seething with energy. Most comics where it's recognized it's clearly stated or drawn.

Supes took his shot and went down. I see WW definitely being laid out in these circumstances.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because he wasn't seething with energy. Most comics where it's recognized it's clearly stated or drawn.

Supes took his shot and went down. I see WW definitely being laid out in these circumstances.

He didnt sun dip, he got an amp from the rays so there is no need for the seething with energy.

Too bad Wondy took multiple of shot from an amped Konvikt that was much stronger than the Konvikt that one shotted Superman and she was ok.

Originally posted by carver9
He didnt sun dip, he got an amp from the rays so there is no need for the seething with energy.

Too bad Wondy took multiple of shot from an amped Konvikt that was much stronger than the Konvikt that one shotted Superman and she was ok. He was against darkseid in superman/batman.

She didn't let him punch her. That's the difference.

Originally posted by carver9
Same can be said for Wonder Woman.

Amazo Wonder Woman that stalemated/nearly would annihilate Superman.

what on earth is "amazo wonder woman"?