Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Who wins?

Takion.

Takion would have nightmares against Thor considering that he's made of energy. Plus Takion's frightfully low durability.

Thor takes it.

The Mighty Thor due to absorbtion.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Takion would have nightmares against Thor considering that he's made of energy. Plus Takion's frightfully low durability.

Thor takes it.
You honestly think Mjolnir could absorb a Source Elemental?

Thor wins.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
You honestly think Mjolnir could absorb a Source Elemental?
Yeah. The Source is...energy. Others being have absorbed portions of it before. See Ares, for example.

Mjolnir can absorb pretty much any kind of energy there is. Bad matchup is all.


(And I once argued for Takion to beat Monarch, so...)

Originally posted by Enyalus
Yeah. The Source is...energy. Others being have absorbed portions of it before. See Ares, for example.

Mjolnir can absorb pretty much any kind of energy there is. Bad matchup is all.


(And I once argued for Takion to beat Monarch, so...)
Thor=/=Ares

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Thor=/=Ares
Mjolnir's energy absorption abilities > Ares'.

Besides, I gave you one example. There've been others.

Takion won't let that happen. Captain Atom can do the same and he had a hard time against Takion.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Mjolnir's energy absorption abilities > Ares'.

Besides, I gave you one example. There've been others. People seem to confuse the source with takion anyways.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Takion won't let that happen. Captain Atom can do the same and he had a hard time against Takion.
For a reason. Because his connection to The Source was messing with Captain Atom's abilities. And The Flash's. And Kyle's.

Won't be the case here.

Originally posted by Enyalus
For a reason. Because his connection to The Source was messing with Captain Atom's abilities. And The Flash's. And Kyle's.

Won't be the case here.
Why not?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Why not?
Because unlike Oan energy, and the Speed Force, and Captain Atom's abilities, Mjolnir's abilities have nothing to do with The Source?

That's just too easy. C'mon.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Because unlike Oan energy, and the Speed Force, and Captain Atom's abilities, Mjolnir's abilities have nothing to do with The Source?

That's just too easy. C'mon. I agree he can't do so when the power source is completely different.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Because unlike Oan energy, and the Speed Force, and Captain Atom's abilities, Mjolnir's abilities have nothing to do with The Source?

That's just too easy. C'mon.
We assume a shared universe for all encounters yes? If that's the case wouldn't the Source have sway over Mjolnir? If it can influence all those disparate powers (which are arguably on a higher level than Mjolnir) why can't it control the Odin Force in Mjolnir?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
We assume a shared universe for all encounters yes? If that's the case wouldn't the Source have sway over Mjolnir? If it can influence all those disparate powers (which are arguably on a higher level than Mjolnir) why can't it control the Odin Force in Mjolnir?
By that same token, if we assume a shared universe LIKE you're suggesting, then the Source wouldn't be the ultimate expression of energy in the universe and the source of all energy, etc, etc...because you'd have to bring Marvel's ultimate source of energy into play. And thus you still wouldn't have Takion being able to manipulate Mjolnir's properties.

Originally posted by Enyalus
By that same token, if we assume a shared universe LIKE you're suggesting, then the Source wouldn't be the ultimate expression of energy in the universe and the source of all energy, etc, etc...because you'd have to bring Marvel's ultimate source of energy into play. And thus you still wouldn't have Takion being able to manipulate Mjolnir's properties. Exactly. Both retain their powersets and both are in effect but you can't rewrite Thor's source as the source. I cannot believe any one would suggest such a thing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
By that same token, if we assume a shared universe LIKE you're suggesting, then the Source wouldn't be the ultimate expression of energy in the universe and the source of all energy, etc, etc...because you'd have to bring Marvel's ultimate source of energy into play. And thus you still wouldn't have Takion being able to manipulate Mjolnir's properties.
Horrible logic up there. The Presence is more powerful than the Source but that doesn't preclude the Source influencing things in the Presence's Creation. Source is a higher form of power than the Odin Force therefore it should have influence assuming a shared universe.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
We assume a shared universe for all encounters yes? If that's the case wouldn't the Source have sway over Mjolnir? If it can influence all those disparate powers (which are arguably on a higher level than Mjolnir) why can't it control the Odin Force in Mjolnir?
Does that mean you think Thor has would have complete control over Captain Marvel's/Black Adam's lightning?

Thor wins.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Exactly. Both retain their powersets and both are in effect but you can't rewrite Thor's source as the source. I cannot believe any one would suggest such a thing.

Thors power source did not create the universe, The Source did so by that it would have power over Thors, not hard to understand..

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Horrible logic up there. The Presence is more powerful than the Source but that doesn't preclude the Source influencing things in the Presence's Creation. Source is a higher form of power than the Odin Force therefore it should have influence assuming a shared universe.
The Source is a part of the Presence, isn't it? Regardless, it's the Source of all the energy in the DCU (save for things like The Shade's power.) That's not the case in Marvel, obviously, as things work a bit different.

The only reason Takion was able to mess up Kyle and Flash and Captain Atom was because all of their powers originally come from The Source. Thor's power and Mjolnir does not, obviously. You can't just retcon the source of all of his godly shiite because it's a 'shared universe.' That's way messed up, IMO.

Originally posted by kevdude
Thors power source did not create the universe, The Source did so by that it would have power over Thors, not hard to understand..
Thank you. If a prerequisite of influencing another force was being the most powerful force in existence then I guess the Omega Effect would have never erased anyone because it wasn't as powerful as the Presence.

Originally posted by Enyalus
The Source is a part of the Presence, isn't it? Regardless, it's the Source of all the energy in the DCU (save for things like The Shade's power.) That's not the case in Marvel, obviously, as things work a bit different.

The only reason Takion was able to mess up Kyle and Flash and Captain Atom was because all of their powers originally come from The Source. Thor's power and Mjolnir does not, obviously. You can't just retcon the source of all of his godly shiite because it's a 'shared universe.'
I think the point of the shared universe is all powers working as they should. Thus Takion manipulating godly energies is on the table. Its really not that hard to understand.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think the point of the shared universe is all powers working as they should. Thus Takion manipulating godly energies is on the table. Its really not that hard to understand.
Fine and dandy that all powers work as they should. I'm not suggesting you gimp Takion. But the fact is that if Takion was facing Superman, Superman's powers wouldn't have flipped out like Kyle/Wally/Nathan's did.

Thor's powers don't come from the Source. Takion isn't going to be able to randomly make them not work. That's not that hard to understand, either.

Furthermore, it was a passive ability. He didn't even know how to control it and from what I could tell never gained that control even at the end of his series.

So the argument is that we assume this is a shared Universe and in turn Thor's power set for no reason, magically becomes connected and derived from the Source like Captain Atom's and Green Lantern's?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Fine and dandy that all powers work as they should. I'm not suggesting you gimp Takion. But the fact is that if Takion was facing Superman, Superman's powers wouldn't have flipped out like Kyle/Wally/Nathan's did.

Thor's powers don't come from the Source. Takion isn't going to be able to randomly make them not work. That's not that hard to understand, either.

Furthermore, it was a passive ability. He didn't even know how to control it and from what I could tell never gained that control even at the end of his series.
Superman's powers are based on solar ENERGY. WTF are you talking about?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So the argument is that we assume this is a shared Universe and in turn Thor's power set for no reason, magically becomes connected and derived from the Source like Captain Atom's and Green Lantern's?


His powers would arguably make MORE sense than those examples seeing as he is a God and the Source is the Father/Mother of all Gods in DC.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Superman's powers are based on solar ENERGY. WTF are you talking about?
When they fought against the Sun Eater, I didn't Superman's powers messing up. *shrug*

And yeah, they're derived from solar energy, but he doesn't 'wield' solar energy like a Green Lantern or Captain Atom wields energy. It lets him punch really really hard. And stuff.

Originally posted by Enyalus
When they fought against the Sun Eater, I didn't Superman's powers messing up. *shrug*

And yeah, they're derived from solar energy, but he doesn't 'wield' solar energy like a Green Lantern or Captain Atom wields energy. It lets him punch really really hard. And stuff.
You're trying to manufacture a distinction that doesn't exist. The Source has sway over almost everything in DC. In fact the only things that stand apart from the Source most likely are extra-dimensional entities and servants of the Presence Himself like Michael and the Spectre.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So the argument is that we assume this is a shared Universe and in turn Thor's power set for no reason, magically becomes connected and derived from the Source like Captain Atom's and Green Lantern's?



We don't have to do that no, but Takion is connected to a higher power force then Thor is. Not saying that would give Takion the win, but his odds at overpowering Takion isn't as good.

Originally posted by kevdude
We don't have to do that no, but Takion is connected to a higher power force then Thor is. Not saying that would give Takion the win, but his odds at overpowering Takion isn't as good.
Saying Thor absorbs him is just ridiculous and shows a poor understanding of the nature of the Source.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Saying Thor absorbs him is just ridiculous and shows a poor understanding of the nature of the Source.
He's made of energy. Mjolnir absorbs energy. The Source is the expression of energy. I don't see what is so far fetched about it.

Besides this, again, Takion's durability is....shall we be kind and say, "not high herald level or above." He got smashed to bits by a meteorite, ffs.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think the point of the shared universe is all powers working as they should. Thus Takion manipulating godly energies is on the table. Its really not that hard to understand.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Does that mean you think Thor would have complete control over Captain Marvel's/Black Adam's lightning?

Originally posted by Enyalus
He's made of energy. Mjolnir absorbs energy. The Source is the expression of energy. I don't see what is so far fetched about it.

Besides this, again, Takion's durability is....shall we be kind and say, "not high herald level or above." He got smashed to bits by a meteorite, ffs.
AND? I eat meat, I can't eat a sixty pound pig all by myself. Its called a no-limit fallacy, the Source's energy is on a higher level than that which Mjolnir has manipulated in the past.

Originally posted by darthgoober

I never said that Takion will have complete control over the Odin Power, just that he'll be able to exert influence over it, even if its only slight influence.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I never said that Takion will have complete control over the Odin Power, just that he'll be able to exert influence over it, even if its only slight influence.
But the thing is that Thor HAS absolute control over lightning so if what you're saying is applied equally across the board it means that Thor would retain his complete control in a shared universe and be able to pretty much lord over Captain Marvel and Black Adam at the same time by easily turning them human...

Takion was going up against multiple heroes, some top tiers. I don't see Thor doing the same, unless he's in warrior madness. Takion is much faster and can resist energy drain. I think he has better control over energy than Thor, but that's just my opinion.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But the thing is that Thor HAS absolute control over lightning so if what you're saying is applied equally across the board it means that Thor would retain his complete control in a shared universe and be able to pretty much lord over Captain Marvel and Black Adam at the same time by easily turning them human...

Depending on which era, the Marvel family has resitance to those attacks that resort him back to Billy. Even SHAZAM couldn't put Adam down at one point.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But the thing is that Thor HAS absolute control over lightning so if what you're saying is applied equally across the board it means that Thor would retain his complete control in a shared universe and be able to pretty much lord over Captain Marvel and Black Adam at the same time by easily turning them human...
I don't think Shazam's lightning is ordinary lightning, and besides Thor isn't the end-all-be-all as far as lightning is concerned. Zeus is the more powerful lightning God.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't think Shazam's lightning is ordinary lightning, and besides Thor isn't the end-all-be-all as far as lightning is concerned. Zeus is the more powerful lightning God.
You're right, it's magical lightning. And remember when you said...

Originally posted by Omega Vision
His powers would arguably make MORE sense than those examples seeing as he is a God and the Source is the Father/Mother of all Gods in DC.

...well the same thing holds true here. The fact that the Marvel family uses a magical lightning source as the catylist for their transformation means that it makes even more sense for Thor to be able to transform them at will.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You're right, it's magical lightning. And remember when you said...



...well the same thing holds true here. The fact that the Marvel family uses a magical lightning source as the catylist for their transformation means that it makes even more sense for Thor to be able to transform them at will. Thor couldn't control Zeus's thunder and he couldn't control Marvel lightning.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Thor couldn't control Zeus's thunder and he couldn't control Marvel lightning.
So Captain Marvel=Zeus now?

SHAZAM couldn't control Adam's lightning as well. and SHAZAM was in ROE.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
SHAZAM couldn't control Adam's lightning as well. and SHAZAM was in ROE.
Is Shazam actually considered "the God of Lightning"?

No, but he's linked to their power and has recently taken the powers away from the WHOLE Marvel Family on a whim. He also controls magical lightning and such. Which is why I said, depending on which era.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
No, but he's linked to their power and has recently taken the powers away from the WHOLE Marvel Family on a whim. He also controls magical lightning and such. Which is why I said, depending on which era.
Then it's a different situation because Thor IS the "God of Lightning". Not that it really matters in this thread mind you since the Marvel's aren't even around, I was just curious to see if OV would be willing to apply the same standard to Thor that he wants others to apply to Takion.

The Marvel's lightning isn't really true lightning. It's mostly a spell. Magical spell. Which is why SHAZAM has manipulation with it.

Plus it's rare to see Billy being resorted back. Only powerful beings have done it and Thor isn't one of them.

BTW, here is Ares post about this. He's extremely knowledgable about Cap. I'll quote him and maybe this will help.



So, I have faith that Cap can resist Thor.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Then it's a different situation because Thor IS the "God of Lightning". Not that it really matters in this thread mind you since the Marvel's aren't even around, I was just curious to see if OV would be willing to apply the same standard to Thor that he wants others to apply to Takion.

I believe Darth it was a few thinking that Takion could have his energy absorbed and manipulated first then Takion doing that to Thor, not the other way around. Not that it matters just saying.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I think he has better control over energy than Thor, but that's just my opinion.
He undoubtedly has better control over energy than Thor. I think thats obvious from him opening up black holes and transforming his energy makeup into anti-matter and all kinds of other examples of energy manipulation.

But when it comes to energy absorption, few things top Mjolnir.

Originally posted by kevdude
I believe Darth it was a few thinking that Takion could have his energy absorbed and manipulated first then Takion doing that to Thor, not the other way around. Not that it matters just saying.
Absorbing someone's energy is different than screwing with the source of their powers. Energy absorption is a pretty standard ability, messing with someone's powers the way Takion did to GL, Flash, and Captain Atom isn't. I have no problem with someone saying that Takion or GL could absorb Photon's(Monica) energy, saying that a DC/Marvel character is automatically under the juristiction of the Source/Power Cosmic in a neutral setting is another matter completely.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Plus it's rare to see Billy being resorted back. Only powerful beings have done it and Thor isn't one of them.

BTW, here is Ares post about this. He's extremely knowledgable about Cap. I'll quote him and maybe this will help.



So, I have faith that Cap can resist Thor.

Still, if ALL characters regardless of origin are to be considered under the juristiction of the Source in a neutral setting, then ALL lightning should be considered to be under Thor's juristiction. People can't have it both ways and still retain any semblance of impartiality.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Absorbing someone's energy is different than screwing with the source of their powers. Energy absorption is a pretty standard ability, messing with someone's powers the way Takion did to GL, Flash, and Captain Atom isn't. I have no problem with someone saying that Takion or GL could absorb Photon's(Monica) energy, saying that a DC/Marvel character is automatically under the juristiction of the Source/Power Cosmic in a neutral setting is another matter completely.



Still, if ALL characters regardless of origin are to be considered under the juristiction of the Source in a neutral setting, then ALL lightning should be considered to be under Thor's juristiction. People can't have it both ways and still retain any semblance of impartiality.

Like I said before, it was people thinking Thor could absorb power like what Takion is first not the other way around, thats what brought that up... Takions represents a power in DC that is much more powerful then Thor's in Marvel.. How you are comparing them is Thor would be able to absorb the powers of the Celestrials which of course he does not have that sorta power.. In a neutral setting they both would be able to call upon their power sources..

Originally posted by kevdude
Like I said before, it was people thinking Thor could absorb power like what Takion is first not the other way around, thats what brought that up... Takions represents a power in DC that is much more powerful then Thor's in Marvel.. How you are comparing them is Thor would be able to absorb the powers of the Celestrials which of course he does not have that sorta power.. In a neutral setting they both would be able to call upon their power sources..
So you're of the opinion that Takion is comparable in power to the Celestials ?

Originally posted by darthgoober
So you're of the opinion that Takion is comparable in power to the Celestials ?

No, hes just got a greater power source to call upon.

Originally posted by kevdude
No, hes just got a greater power source to call upon.
If he's not comparable to the Celestials, then how is my saying Thor being able to absorb Takion the same as me saying he could absorb a Celestial?

Thor's absorbed energy enough to destroy 1/5 the universe successfully if I'm not mistaken, has Takion ever shown that his body contains more energy than that?

I'm not sure how one is going to prove anything either way here. Takion demonstrated greater control over energy than Captain Atom, who has created and destroyed entire universes MULTIPLE TIMES. He's also had trouble with Lightray.

Thor has absorbed raw energy that was capable of destroying 1/5th of the universe. All the energy from his hammer has also been totally drained by Katie Power, of the Power Pack.

Originally posted by kevdude
Thors power source did not create the universe, The Source did so by that it would have power over Thors, not hard to understand.. Takion didn't create the universe either. Horrible logic there.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Thor's absorbed energy enough to destroy 1/5 the universe successfully if I'm not mistaken, has Takion ever shown that his body contains more energy than that?
Bingo. Kind of my point.

Additionally, although the Celestials are probably composed mostly of energy (hyperspace, unless that was retconned)...they have an outer shell. Takion is energy. No shell or outer layer or coating about it. Energy with a consciousness. Sentient energy. In a nutshell, that describes him.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If he's not comparable to the Celestials, then how is my saying Thor being able to absorb Takion the same as me saying he could absorb a Celestial?

Thor's absorbed energy enough to destroy 1/5 the universe successfully if I'm not mistaken, has Takion ever shown that his body contains more energy than that?

Just using that as a comparison to think Thor could absorb Takions energy. Takion can draw upon energy from The Source something that made the universe and is infinite. Takion held back the Godwave which spawned all of the gods in the universe and was contracting back to The Source.

Originally posted by kevdude
Takion held back the Godwave which spawned all of the gods in the universe and was contracting back to The Source.
Briefly. Before 'dying.'



(I don't mean to demean the feat, as its still really impressive. I just felt compelled to point that out.)

Originally posted by kevdude
Just using that as a comparison to think Thor could absorb Takions energy. Takion can draw upon energy from The Source something that made the universe and is infinite. Takion held back the Godwave which spawned all of the gods in the universe and was contracting back to The Source. The energy was also described as less than infinite. That doesn't bode well for the dcu.

Thor absorbs Takion? Ridiculous

Originally posted by kgkg
Thor absorbs Takion? Ridiculous
Shhhh.

Originally posted by kevdude
Just using that as a comparison to think Thor could absorb Takions energy. Takion can draw upon energy from The Source something that made the universe and is infinite. Takion held back the Godwave which spawned all of the gods in the universe and was contracting back to The Source.
The Champion and the Gardener can draw upon the primal energies of the Marvel Universe, it doesn't mean that they have infinite power themselves.

And Takion DIED briefly holding back the Godwave, so it doesn't really mean much in something like this. It's impressive of course(just as Surfer channeling the energies of the Crunch itself is impressive), but it in no way indicates an infinite resistance to drainage.


But now I'm arguing a point that I never meant to argue. Like I said before I just wanted to see if OV would be willing to apply the same standard to Thor that he wanted others to apply to Takion/Source. Feel free to disagree in regards to whether or not Thor can absorb Takion, the point I had a problem with was assuming that Marvel characters are automatically connected to DC power sources just as I'd have a problem with people saying that DC characters are automatically connected to Marvel power sources. Otherwise Lobo would be an Elder of the Universe in a forum fight with someone like the Champion.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
His powers would arguably make MORE sense than those examples seeing as he is a God and the Source is the Father/Mother of all Gods in DC.

So he suddenly becomes related to the Source and has his powers derived from it so that Takion can prevent Thor's energy absorbing abilities from messing him up?

Thor's heritage comes from Odin and the Asgardians that were born into creation from Buri (And his wife.) who came into existence from nothing during the primal age of ice/fire, a time when nothing else existed. It also comes from Gaea the Elder God who came into being from the Demiurge which is the sentient life force born out of the Earth's biosphere.

I really don't see how it would make sense that he magically becomes related and have his power drawn from the Source, and if you're arguing it, to the point Takion can mess with his powerset like he did with Rayner and Wally.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The Champion and the Gardener can draw upon the primal energies of the Marvel Universe, it doesn't mean that they have infinite power themselves.

And Takion DIED briefly holding back the Godwave, so it doesn't really mean much in something like this. It's impressive of course(just as Surfer channeling the energies of the Crunch itself is impressive), but it in no way indicates an infinite resistance to drainage.


But now I'm arguing a point that I never meant to argue. Like I said before I just wanted to see if OV would be willing to apply the same standard to Thor that he wanted others to apply to Takion/Source. Feel free to disagree in regards to whether or not Thor can absorb Takion, the point I had a problem with was assuming that Marvel characters are automatically connected to DC power sources just as I'd have a problem with people saying that DC characters are automatically connected to Marvel power sources. Otherwise Lobo would be an Elder of the Universe in a forum fight with someone like the Champion.

Never said Takion had infinite energy, he can draw upon more from The Source which is. The Champion and the Gardener draw upon energy that is already released in the universe, they do not draw it from beyond the big bang itself (from what I have seen), different. OV was not the one who started applying that to start with, that was Gishere and Enyalus.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Absorbing someone's energy is different than screwing with the source of their powers. Energy absorption is a pretty standard ability, messing with someone's powers the way Takion did to GL, Flash, and Captain Atom isn't. I have no problem with someone saying that Takion or GL could absorb Photon's(Monica) energy, saying that a DC/Marvel character is automatically under the juristiction of the Source/Power Cosmic in a neutral setting is another matter completely.



Still, if ALL characters regardless of origin are to be considered under the juristiction of the Source in a neutral setting, then ALL lightning should be considered to be under Thor's juristiction. People can't have it both ways and still retain any semblance of impartiality.

It still doesn't prove that Thor has complete control over Captain Marvel, who has RESISTED such attacks in the past.

Originally posted by kgkg
Thor absorbs Takion? Ridiculous

yep those are the thor fanboys around here not only they think he can beat anyone but now he can absorb anyone into his hammer

Originally posted by kgkg
Thor absorbs Takion? Ridiculous

Pretty much. Because he is just energy, without sentience and the will to resist him. I wonder if this is the only way Thor's supporters think he can win.

Originally posted by kevdude
Never said Takion had infinite energy, he can draw upon more from The Source which is. The Champion and the Gardener draw upon energy that is already released in the universe, they do not draw it from beyond the big bang itself (from what I have seen), different. OV was not the one who started applying that to start with, that was Gishere and Enyalus.
Again, absorbtion and the source of someone's powers are different things. I don't see anything wrong with saying that a being from one universe has the potential to absorb from a being from another, I do see something wrong with saying that Takion has control over Thor's godly energies automatically because all Godly energies spring from the source. The origin of Thor's powers doesn't get rectonned because he's in a forum fight with a DC character. Him and the others DO retain their abilities though, so Thor can absorb energy from DC characters just as Takion can absorb energy from Marvel characters. But disrupting the powers of GL and companies energies wasn't an ABILITY of Takion's, it's just something that just kinda happened. He wasn't controling the effect or anything from what I understand, it just happened because of their connection with the Source. Thor doesn't have that connection though, and shouldn't "develope" one just because he's in a forum fight.

And if you weren't saying that Takion has infinite energy, then you didn't really answer the question. I asked what feats Takion had that suggest his body contained more energy than would be required to destroy 1/5 of the universe because we've seen Thor absorb that much energy and you said...

Originally posted by kevdude
Just using that as a comparison to think Thor could absorb Takions energy. Takion can draw upon energy from The Source something that made the universe and is infinite. Takion held back the Godwave which spawned all of the gods in the universe and was contracting back to The Source.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
It still doesn't prove that Thor has complete control over Captain Marvel, who has RESISTED such attacks in the past.
I don't believe that it DOES prove that Thor has control over Marvel's lightning, quite the contrary in fact. I don't think you were fully aware of the arguement you jumped in on .

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't believe that it DOES prove that Thor has control over Marvel's lightning, quite the contrary in fact. I don't think you were fully aware of the arguement you jumped in on .

Oh, I thought you were arguing for Thor. It's quite possible for Thor to do it, but on the other hand, it's not a guarantee.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Oh, I thought you were arguing for Thor. It's quite possible for Thor to do it, but on the other hand, it's not a guarantee.
Pretty much sums up how I feel about it. Whether or not Thor can pull it off against Takion is up for debate, but whether or not Takion's connection to the Source will mess with Thor's powers is a definate no IMO. I was using Thor's control over lightning against Marvel to demonstrate the problem with assuming the Takion's control over Thor's powers.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Pretty much. Because he is just energy, without sentience and the will to resist him. I wonder if this is the only way Thor's supporters think he can win. How does Takion win?

Originally posted by quanchi112
How does Takion win?

how does he not?

Originally posted by Darkesthero
how does he not? Because he doesn't have the showings to prove it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Because he doesn't have the showings to prove it.

how can thor win? show me showings of thor being able to handle someone in takion level and i do mean someone like takion

Originally posted by Darkesthero
how can thor win? show me showings of thor being able to handle someone in takion level and i do mean someone like takion What is Takion level? I see him as a poor man's Surfer.

I don't really see any Top Tier defeating Takion. In the Takion mini it was stated that Takion's only limit is the amount of power present in the Source itself. That he represented the conscious will of the Source.

Also I don't think Takion is made of energy per se, but the basic units of The Source itself (the mini).

He is made up of the very stuff from which energy comes from, again from the Takion mini.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't really see any Top Tier defeating Takion. In the Takion mini it was stated that Takion's only limit is the amount of power present in the Source itself. That he represented the conscious will of the Source.

Also I don't think Takion is made of energy per se, but the basic units of The Source itself (the mini).

He is made up of the very stuff from which energy comes from, again from the Takion mini. Could Takion defeat any Guardian iyo?

Originally posted by quanchi112
Could Takion defeat any Guardian iyo?
I think Takion represented power an order of magnitude higher than that of Highfather or Darkseid but he lacked the experience or knowledge to use it to its fullest so he appeared as a High Herald character.

I can see him defeating a Guardian of the Universe.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think Takion represented power an order of magnitude higher than that of Highfather or Darkseid but he lacked the experience or knowledge to use it to its fullest so he appeared as a High Herald character.

I can see him defeating a Guardian of the Universe. So basically not anywhere near as effective with the power he represents. He isn't the power he represents or is comparable to the Source which so many on here want to say.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Could Takion defeat any Guardian iyo?

Definitely. Any cosmic or universal force is under his power and open to his manipulation that includes Oan energy.

In the Mini it was stated that the only kind of energy he cannot directly manipulate is innate or bio energy, and the example of Superman was given since his power is generated internally.

Any kind of cosmic force, Oan since it comes from the emotional spectrum (willpower) , Quantam field, Speed Force is under his sway.

Originally posted by Allankles
Definitely. Any cosmic or universal force is under his power and open to his manipulation that includes Oan energy.

In the Mini it was stated that the only kind of energy he cannot directly manipulate is innate or bio energy, and the example of Superman was given since his power is generated internally.

Any kind of cosmic force, Oan since it comes from the emotional spectrum (willpower) , Quantam field, Speed Force is under his sway. Any dc force then not innate iyo.

So people are seriously still arguing that Thor will absorb Takion?

Originally posted by quanchi112
So basically not anywhere near as effective with the power he represents. He isn't the power he represents or is comparable to the Source which so many on here want to say.

Takion is essentially an avatar of the Source manifested by Highfather and hosted by a human being Highfather selected.

In the Mini the only thing holding back the avatar Takion is the human host within it, the human will driving it.

Originally posted by quanchi112
So basically not anywhere near as effective with the power he represents. He isn't the power he represents or is comparable to the Source which so many on here want to say.
I never said he is=the Source, just that theoretical full power Takion (similar to the mythical infinite-rage/strength Hulk that is at times argued) would be a formidable force that not many beings could defeat. Full power Takion could probably defeat a competent Spectre or thwart a 5D Imp (not Mxy though, he's on another level entirely for some reason).

Originally posted by kgkg
So people are seriously still arguing that Thor will absorb Takion?
The argument has shifted to whether or not Takion could control Thor's energies it seems.

Originally posted by Allankles
Takion is essentially an avatar of the Source manifested by Highfather and hosted by a human being Highfather selected.

In the Mini the only thing holding back the avatar Takion is the human host within it, the human will driving it. That really doesn't prove anything. That's like me saying Odin is omnipotent the supreme power and he destroys galaxies when angry. Originally posted by Omega Vision
I never said he is=the Source, just that theoretical full power Takion (similar to the mythical infinite-rage/strength Hulk that is at times argued) would be a formidable force that not many beings could defeat. Full power Takion could probably defeat a competent Spectre or thwart a 5D Imp (not Mxy though, he's on another level entirely for some reason). So basically not the one who appears in comics just the one you made up. He's also dead.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That really doesn't prove anything. That's like me saying Odin is omnipotent the supreme power and he destroys galaxies when angry. So basically not the one who appears in comics just the one you made up. He's also dead.
We're all guilty of such an argument. I've seen you make a case for Hulk being capable of infinite strength regardless of the lack of evidence beyond hyperbolic statements in his bio.
That said I believe Takion is a peer if not a superior to Thor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Any dc force then not innate iyo.

Pretty much any DC force. Especially when you consider that the Source is the mind of the Monitor/Overvoid.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
We're all guilty of such an argument. I've seen you make a case for Hulk being capable of infinite strength regardless of the lack of evidence beyond hyperbolic statements in his bio.
That said I believe Takion is a peer if not a superior to Thor. He is capable of getting angrier but I don't say he is unbeatable and make stuff up for the Hulk to win.

I think if we go by what they actually did Thor routes him. He can't even manipulate Thor's power which is his big trump card anyways.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That really doesn't prove anything. That's like me saying Odin is omnipotent the supreme power and he destroys galaxies when angry.

Odin is one magical skyfather of one pantheon of Skandinavian deities, he's not in the same bracket as the avatar of the source of all energy.

Omnipotence even, has its levels in comics. With Takion it is categorically shown that the power in his command is enormously vast but he is limited by CIS or PIS depending on how you see it.

CIS if you consider that the finite human will within him struggles to tap into the power. PIS if you don't consider his human will a handicap at all.

Originally posted by Allankles
Odin is one magical skyfather of one pantheon of Skandinavian deities, he's not in the same bracket as the avatar of the source of all energy.

Omnipotence even, has its levels in comics. With Takion it is categorically shown that the power in his command is enormously vast but he is limited by CIS or PIS depending on how you see it.

CIS if you consider that the finite human will within him struggles to tap into the power. PIS if you don't consider his human will a handicap at all. What? Did you just say Takion is greater than Odin?


Based on feats, combat showings, common sense, and hyperbole Odin is a lot more than takion has ever shown to be capable of.

Takion isn't the Source and wasn't even chosen to kill of the new gods when it came time to eliminate them.

Takion was killed by the godwave anyways which is less than infnite power described on panel. Going by actual statements the power gem is a lot more powerful than the godwave.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I think if we go by what they actually did Thor routes him. He can't even manipulate Thor's power which is his big trump card anyways.

But Takion hasn't shown any weaknesses. He got taken down by the godwave a vast force capable of multiversal reality manipulation and destruction, and even then there were circumstances, his own power source was distressed.

Then he got taken out by another avatar of the Source in DOTNG. So far between defeating the likes of Stayne and other gods and top tiers, he's been defeated twice by vastly more powerful forces than Thor.

Originally posted by Allankles
But Takion hasn't shown any weaknesses. He got taken down by the godwave a vast force capable of multiversal reality manipulation and destruction, and even then there were circumstances, his own power source was distressed.

Then he got taken out by another avatar of the Source in DOTNG. So far between defeating the likes of Stayne and other gods and top tiers, he's been defeated twice by vastly more powerful forces than Thor. Gog ran off the avatar of the source in the infinity man an dTakion was less than nothing against him. he's less than orion when he went all out. Yeah, which showings prove he's at the level you claim he is?

Originally posted by quanchi112
What? Did you just say Takion is greater than Odin?


Based on feats, combat showings, common sense, and hyperbole Odin is a lot more than takion has ever shown to be capable of.

Takion isn't the Source and wasn't even chosen to kill of the new gods when it came time to eliminate them.

Takion was killed by the godwave anyways which is less than infnite power described on panel. Going by actual statements the power gem is a lot more powerful than the godwave.
I don't see someone with the Power Gem invading the Silver City and touching the Presence Himself.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Gog ran off the avatar of the source in the infinity man an dTakion was less than nothing against him. he's less than orion when he went all out. Yeah, which showings prove he's at the level you claim he is?
He didn't 'run him off'. IM had no interest in fighting Gog.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What? Did you just say Takion is greater than Odin?


Based on feats, combat showings, common sense, and hyperbole Odin is a lot more than takion has ever shown to be capable of.

Ok. As long as you keep the word hyperbole in mind. It's not hyperbole to say Takion is the avatar of a power that is actually worthy of that description (omnipotent).

Originally posted by quanchi112
Takion isn't the Source and wasn't even chosen to kill of the new gods when it came time to eliminate them.

Takion was killed by the godwave anyways which is less than infnite power described on panel. Going by actual statements the power gem is a lot more powerful than the godwave.

The god wave was capable of multiversal reality manipulation and destruction. And Takion got killed by it after he slowed it down and only because the Source itself was in danger, if the gw wasn't also threatening the Source Takion wouldn't likely have died.

Also what does the godwave have to do with Thor or Odin? We're talking about a difference in power of several orders of magnitude here.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I don't see someone with the Power Gem invading the Silver City and touching the Presence Himself. What does that have to do with the godwave?

Originally posted by Omega Vision
He didn't 'run him off'. IM had no interest in fighting Gog. I consider it imposing your will on the representative of the source. Picking new gods off in secrecy doesn't scream of power to me.

Originally posted by quanchi112
What does that have to do with the godwave?

I consider it imposing your will on the representative of the source. Picking new gods off in secrecy doesn't scream of power to me.
When Cronus had the Godwave he was able to literally touch the Presence, that's something the Power Gem wouldn't be able to do. He was defeating entire Pantheons with ease with the Godwave at his disposal.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Again, absorbtion and the source of someone's powers are different things. I don't see anything wrong with saying that a being from one universe has the potential to absorb from a being from another, I do see something wrong with saying that Takion has control over Thor's godly energies automatically because all Godly energies spring from the source. The origin of Thor's powers doesn't get rectonned because he's in a forum fight with a DC character. Him and the others DO retain their abilities though, so Thor can absorb energy from DC characters just as Takion can absorb energy from Marvel characters. But disrupting the powers of GL and companies energies wasn't an ABILITY of Takion's, it's just something that just kinda happened. He wasn't controling the effect or anything from what I understand, it just happened because of their connection with the Source. Thor doesn't have that connection though, and shouldn't "develope" one just because he's in a forum fight.

And if you weren't saying that Takion has infinite energy, then you didn't really answer the question. I asked what feats Takion had that suggest his body contained more energy than would be required to destroy 1/5 of the universe because we've seen Thor absorb that much energy and you said...

It all comes down to willpower (to channel enough energy) and experience that Takion would have to be able to win. Thor simply does not have the connection to a power source like Takion does.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
When Cronus had the Godwave he was able to literally touch the Presence, that's something the Power Gem wouldn't be able to do. He was defeating entire Pantheons with ease with the Godwave at his disposal. Anyone could take on the power of the presence but not everyone could handle it if they had the opportunity which presented itself. He was adding their power to his own and taking their power. Even then it's not equal to what the power gem is capable of with a capable user.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Anyone could take on the power of the presence but not everyone could handle it if they had the opportunity which presented itself. He was adding their power to his own and taking their power. Even then it's not equal to what the power gem is capable of with a capable user. Yes it is. The Power Gem is mostly hyperbole.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yes it is. The Power Gem is mostly hyperbole. No, except it backs the other gems and makes the ig users thoughts a reality. It has complete mastery over power and it's funny you bring up hyperbole when that is all Takion has going for him.

Originally posted by quanchi112
No, except it backs the other gems and makes the ig users thoughts a reality. It has complete mastery over power and it's funny you bring up hyperbole when that is all Takion has going for him.
Are you seriously ascribing the powers of the other gems to the PG by itself? It does not make the users thought into reality because if that were the case Thor would have easily bested Thanos.

Originally posted by darthgoober
I asked what feats Takion had that suggest his body contained more energy than would be required to destroy 1/5 of the universe because we've seen Thor absorb that much energy and you said...

Lulz? I hope you're not referring to the instance where Thor contained the energy inside of a whirlwind...

Originally posted by Allankles
Ok. As long as you keep the word hyperbole in mind. It's not hyperbole to say Takion is the avatar of a power that is actually worthy of that description (omnipotent).



The god wave was capable of multiversal reality manipulation and destruction. And Takion got killed by it after he slowed it down and only because the Source itself was in danger, if the gw wasn't also threatening the Source Takion wouldn't likely have died.

Also what does the godwave have to do with Thor or Odin? We're talking about a difference in power of several orders of magnitude here.

The thing that killed Takion and the rest of the New Gods, or rather one aspect of their forms, wasn't the Source. Final Crisis Secret Files makes that clear.

And that wasn't what REALLY happened anyway, just one interpretation of the battle. Again, Final Crisis Secret Files makes that clear.

They exist on higher planes of existence.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Are you seriously ascribing the powers of the other gems to the PG by itself? It does not make the users thought into reality because if that were the case Thor would have easily bested Thanos. It's the most important gem when you have the others it backs them all up. Thor's not as competent with the power gem as Thanos bu twas still a force all the same when he wielded it.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think Takion represented power an order of magnitude higher than that of Highfather or Darkseid
There is absolutely zero chance that Darkseid would create a being more powerful than himself (Stayne.) So no, pretty sure that theory of your about Takion is incorrect.

I agree that he can beat a Guardian, though.

Originally posted by Enyalus
There is absolutely zero chance that Darkseid would create a being more powerful than himself (Stayne.) So no, pretty sure that theory of your about Takion is incorrect.

I agree that he can beat a Guardian, though.

Darkseid probably had a self destruct switch on Stayne but if she's an exact duplicate of Takion then she could certainly have become more powerful than DS.

Originally posted by Allankles
Darkseid probably had a self destruct switch on Stayne but if she's an exact duplicate of Takion then she could certainly have become more powerful than DS.
At most Takion pretty much held the same level of power as Highfather did. The differences were that Highfather needed an item to wield it (staff), whereas Takion's power was intrinsic. Also, Takion's inexperience with wielding it.

What ever gave you the impression that either Takion or Stayne were above their makers in power?

Having direct access to the power of the Source? Also it is implied by that Old God (forget his name) that not even Highfather had the full extent of the potential of Takion when he thought up the idea to create him.

Amazo is more powerful than Prof. Ivo (I know different circumstances) but the comparison applies here, except at a cosmic level.

Originally posted by Allankles
Having direct access to the power of the Source?
Tapping/channeling the power of the Source, yes. Via his staff.

Originally posted by Allankles
Amazo is more powerful than Prof. Ivo (I know different circumstances) but the comparison applies here, except at a cosmic level.
It sooo does not and you know it.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Tapping/channeling the power of the Source, yes. Via his staff.

He can only tap into a limited amount of power with his Staff, he needed Takion precisely because his connection with the Source wasn't deep enough, so he sacrificed a human life to create a living conduit of the Source. I think most of Highfather's power comes from the Alpha Force.


Originally posted by Enyalus
It sooo does not and you know it.

I know there's a monumental disparity in power with Ivo and Amazo but it's similar ( I also had in mind that he used science lol). Takion can tap deeper into the Source since he is basically its living avatar.

Originally posted by Enyalus

Tapping/channeling the power of the Source, yes. Via his staff.


It sooo does not and you know it.
I think its more analogous with the creation of Gog where the Quintessence ended up creating a being who's power outstripped their own.

takion

Originally posted by Allankles
Darkseid probably had a self destruct switch on Stayne but if she's an exact duplicate of Takion then she could certainly have become more powerful than DS. Speculation.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think its more analogous with the creation of Gog where the Quintessence ended up creating a being who's power outstripped their own.
You think Gog was stronger than the Quintessence combined? He had a portion of their power. Not all of it.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
I think its more analogous with the creation of Gog where the Quintessence ended up creating a being who's power outstripped their own.

I think that's pretty unlikely. I'm certain that there were abilities that Takion had, being directly connected to the source, that Highfather didn't (in the same way that there are weaknesses that Galactus has that the Silver Surfer doesn't), but given the way they were created, and the simple fact that Darkseid would never empower someone beyond what he himself was capable of, it seems really unlikely.

Originally posted by Enyalus
You think Gog was stronger than the Quintessence combined? He had a portion of their power. Not all of it.
The Phantom Stranger outright stated that Gog had grown more powerful than the Quintessence (minus him who didn't lend his powers).
Originally posted by Desaad
I think that's pretty unlikely. I'm certain that there were abilities that Takion had, being directly connected to the source, that Highfather didn't (in the same way that there are weaknesses that Galactus has that the Silver Surfer doesn't), but given the way they were created, and the simple fact that Darkseid would never empower someone beyond what he himself was capable of, it seems really unlikely.
Stayne was slavishly loyal to Darkseid. As said before Darkseid most likely had the means to take her out should she turn on him. I don't think that Takion WAS more powerful per se than Highfather or Darkseid, just that he represented greater power and could have potentially eclipsed them,.

So ignoring possible Mjolnir absorption, why does Takion win, OV?

Originally posted by Enyalus
So ignoring possible Mjolnir absorption, why does Takion win, OV?
****ing with the Odin Force? Its speculation either way but Thor absorbing Takion is rather lulworthy.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
****ing with the Odin Force? Its speculation either way but Thor absorbing Takion is rather lulworthy.
Let's ignore then your speculation about him messing with the Odinforce, too.

So no absorbing Takion, and no Takion messing with the OF. How does Takion win?

Bump

Takion