If Wonder Woman is 100% (in skill), rate these guys . . .

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.



Sasaraixx
Since these kinds of topics seem so popular at the moment, here is another one.

If Wonder Woman is considered 100% with regards to fighting skill/ability, where would the following characters fall? (Feel free to be lazy like me and just put them in order or any other type of designation you may choose)

Superman
Orion
Thor
Flash (Wally)
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Martian Manhunter
Black Adam
Silver Surfer
Supergirl
Power Girl
Silver Surfer
Sentry
Donna Troy
Gladiator

Firestorms
None of her competitors are good martial artists, the only people with impressive feats and training are Gladiator, Thor and Orion.
All the others depend heavily on their powers to win, not depend on their fighting skills


Assuming everyone has equal power, equal speed and equal durability

vs Diana's fighting skills


Superman
12%

Orion
99%

Thor
70%

Flash
5%

Captain Marvel (Billy)
4%

Martian Manhunter
30%

Black Adam
10%

Silver Surfer
12%

Supergirl
20%

Power Girl
2%

Sentry
2%

Donna Troy
50%

Gladiator
90%

Sasaraixx
Well I know Superman spars with WW frequently and Supergirl has been trained by her. Donna also has training as well. In their recent fight, WW also commented on Power Girls warrior prowess.

I purposefully didn't include noted martial artists like Wolverine or Lady Shiva in this thread. That is all that they do and they are often fighting against other equally talented martial artists. The guys/ladies on this list don't.

I'm just curious how *well* people generally think these super powered guys can fight. WW is setting the bar high but I'm more interested in their relationship to each other.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Firestorms
None of her competitors are good martial artists, the only people with impressive feats and training are Gladiator, Thor and Orion.
All the others depend heavily on their powers to win, not depend on their fighting skills


Assuming everyone has equal power, equal speed and equal durability

vs Diana's fighting skills


Superman
12%

Orion
99%

Thor
70%

Flash
5%

Captain Marvel (Billy)
4%

Martian Manhunter
30%

Black Adam
10%

Silver Surfer
12%

Supergirl
20%

Power Girl
2%

Sentry
2%

Donna Troy
50%

Gladiator
90% laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud

Q99
Superman's not WW good, but he is very experienced and both Diana and Bruce have helped teach him to fight, so at least he doesn't wiff as much as PG did. In his own way he's very very skilled at using his powers.

Batman-Prime
Superman 60%
Orion 100%
Thor 70%
Flash (Wally) 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy) 40%
Martian Manhunter 30%
Black Adam 50%
Silver Surfer 20%
Supergirl 30%
Power Girl 40%
Sentry 10%
Donna Troy 90%
Gladiator 50%
Karate Kid 200% shifty

Everyone who isn't new to this business has enough experiance to get the first 10%, after that it's more experience (greater opponents) and hard training, IMO. Diana has mastered the AoF, Orion too.

BTW you don't have to be an MA to be a good fighter. With experience and focus even an very good brawler (street fighter) can take down an Black Belt.

Q99
Originally posted by Batman-Prime

BTW you don't have to be an MA to be a good fighter. With experience and focus even an very good brawler (street fighter) can take down an Black Belt.

Yea, martial arts descended from people who were simply good at fights, and at the end it's all 'how good you are at inflicting and avoiding damage,' just different paths in the same direction.

JakeTheBank
Superman: 65%. Superman is a much better fighter than people give him credit for, me included at one time. Aside from regular sparing with Diana and Batman and the rest of the League, Kal's style of reactionary fighting shows him adapting to whichever situation he's found in. His brief little scuffle in World of New Krypton against another Kryptonian shows that he's not some mindless brawler.

Orion: 95%. This should be a no brainer, honestly. Orion has been fighting for a long, long time.

Thor: 80%. Thor is pretty much one of the best brawlers in his weight class. The guy's sense of warfare and tactics have impressed Captain America before, not to mention Thor has defeated both the Asgardian and Olympian Gods of War (Tyr and Ares) like no one's business.

Flash (Wally): 30%. Wally's been around long enough to use his powers effectively as well as fight prolonged battles at very high speeds.

Captain Marvel (Billy): 45%. Thanks to his own experiences and the Wisdom of Solomon, Billy is able to hold his own against most foes.

Martian Manhunter: 40%. No explanation really needed, imo.

Black Adam: 55%. Adam is smart enough to go all out when he needs to and uses everything at his disposal to handle multiple heroes at once.

Silver Surfer: ?. To be honest, I haven't seen a whole lot of Surfer fights to make an informed judgement.

Supergirl: 25%. Her training with the Amazons as well as her cousin and Batman have paid off when she's been faced with powerful foes.

Power Girl: 50%. It's obvious from her recent fight with Diana, PG has some skill to her name. Regular training and sparring with the JSA - most noticeably Wildcat - keep her pretty sharp.

Sentry: 10%. Bob is basically like a super powered gun. Just point him in the right direction and pull the damn trigger.

Donna Troy: 80%. No explanation hopefully needed here.

Gladiator: 70%. It's obvious Glads is much more than a Superman-esque brick with a funky haircut. He has the skill to fight incredibly effectively.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman: 65%. Superman is a much better fighter than people give him credit for, me included at one time. Aside from regular sparing with Diana and Batman and the rest of the League, Kal's style of reactionary fighting shows him adapting to whichever situation he's found in. His brief little scuffle in World of New Krypton against another Kryptonian shows that he's not some mindless brawler.

Orion: 95%. This should be a no brainer, honestly. Orion has been fighting for a long, long time.

Thor: 80%. Thor is pretty much one of the best brawlers in his weight class. The guy's sense of warfare and tactics have impressed Captain America before, not to mention Thor has defeated both the Asgardian and Olympian Gods of War (Tyr and Ares) like no one's business.

Flash (Wally): 30%. Wally's been around long enough to use his powers effectively as well as fight prolonged battles at very high speeds.

Captain Marvel (Billy): 45%. Thanks to his own experiences and the Wisdom of Solomon, Billy is able to hold his own against most foes.

Martian Manhunter: 40%. No explanation really needed, imo.

Black Adam: 55%. Adam is smart enough to go all out when he needs to and uses everything at his disposal to handle multiple heroes at once.

Silver Surfer: ?. To be honest, I haven't seen a whole lot of Surfer fights to make an informed judgement.

Supergirl: 25%. Her training with the Amazons as well as her cousin and Batman have paid off when she's been faced with powerful foes.

Power Girl: 50%. It's obvious from her recent fight with Diana, PG has some skill to her name. Regular training and sparring with the JSA - most noticeably Wildcat - keep her pretty sharp.

Sentry: 10%. Bob is basically like a super powered gun. Just point him in the right direction and pull the damn trigger.

Donna Troy: 80%. No explanation hopefully needed here.

Gladiator: 70%. It's obvious Glads is much more than a Superman-esque brick with a funky haircut. He has the skill to fight incredibly effectively.

I think this is your worst list yet.
Powergirl at 50? and Superman at 65? Surely you jest, especially after PG got pwned purely by skills
Gladiator at 70 and Donna Troy at 80? Sentry at 10?
Orion at 90? While Superman has fought with him toe-to-toe? If he skills were that much better, surely he would always have an advantage? wink

Though, yours is the best list so far

Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm assuming this is about how effective one is in combat. Not about how many martial arts styles they know.

Superman - 90%
Orion - 100%
Thor - 100%
Flash (Wally) - 10%
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 70% (Diana herself has commented on how much of an exceptional good combatant Billy is, so I don't think the difference between the two is really that large.)
Martian Manhunter - 30%
Black Adam - 60%
Supergirl - 30%
Power Girl - 40%
Silver Surfer - 10% to 50%?
Sentry - 10%
Donna Troy - 80%
Gladiator - 85%

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I think this is your worst list yet.
Powergirl at 50? and Superman at 65? Surely you jest, especially after PG got pwned purely by skills
Gladiator at 70 and Donna Troy at 80? Sentry at 10?
Orion at 90? While Superman has fought with him toe-to-toe? If he skills were that much better, surely he would always have an advantage? wink

Though, yours is the best list so far

LOL so it's my worse list...yet the best one so far?

embarrasment

The numbers are based off of average showings as far as I'm concerned. PG at 50 is very spot on in my opinion as Diana commented on how she's not just a wild brawler. And if Diana is 100%, then her schooling PG using superior skills isn't a stretch. Superman has skills, yes, but to me anyway, they're not consistant enough to rank him uber high. Don't see what's wrong with Glad's and Donna's rankings, tbh. Sentry gets a 10 simply for knowing what punching and kicking is and that he can do both pretty hard. Orion? He shows a higher consistant level of skill and top tier brawling than Superman does, imo.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
LOL so it's my worse list...yet the best one so far?

embarrasment

The numbers are based off of average showings as far as I'm concerned. PG at 50 is very spot on in my opinion as Diana commented on how she's not just a wild brawler. And if Diana is 100%, then her schooling PG using superior skills isn't a stretch. Superman has skills, yes, but to me anyway, they're not consistant enough to rank him uber high. Don't see what's wrong with Glad's and Donna's rankings, tbh. Sentry gets a 10 simply for knowing what punching and kicking is and that he can do both pretty hard. Orion? He shows a higher consistant level of skill and top tier brawling than Superman does, imo.
Your post was the best one at that time. Though in my view it's still wrong.


As for the list, imo, this is mine.

Superman - 85-90%
Orion - 105%
Thor - 85-90%
Flash (Wally) - 5-10%-He only punches fast. Never kicks and no skills
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 75%
Martian Manhunter - 25% Same as Wally.
Black Adam - 70%
Supergirl - 30%
Power Girl - 50%
Silver Surfer - ???
Sentry - 15% Same as Wally, or MM
Donna Troy - 85%
Gladiator - 80-85%

The thing about this thread is that most people at looking at who uses more skills. That's wrong. Most characters like Superman, Thor, and Orion don't use it because they like to use other tactics first and only if they fail will they rely on skills; this is when their skills really shine.

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I'm assuming this is about how effective one is in combat. Not about how many martial arts styles they know.

You would be correct sir.

Q99
Big Barda- 90%

She's able to give Diana a good fight in hand to hand.

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Superman 60%
Orion 100%
Thor 70%
Flash (Wally) 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy) 40%
Martian Manhunter 30%
Black Adam 50%
Silver Surfer 20%
Supergirl 30%
Power Girl 40%
Sentry 10%
Donna Troy 90%
Gladiator 50%
Karate Kid 200% shifty

Everyone who isn't new to this business has enough experiance to get the first 10%, after that it's more experience (greater opponents) and hard training, IMO. Diana has mastered the AoF, Orion too.

BTW you don't have to be an MA to be a good fighter. With experience and focus even an very good brawler (street fighter) can take down an Black Belt. If you're going with the brawler route and implying that makes a good fighter, then why are Billy, BA, and Superman below Wonder Woman?

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus

Superman - 90%

Thor - 100%

What the f**k?

how the hell is thor more effective in fighting than Superman?

if anything, superman is far more effective.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
What the f**k?

how the hell is thor more effective in fighting than Superman?

if anything, superman is far more effective.

Superman is pretty effective. Especially when he throws in his super speed. The Trinity incident when he handles Superwoman and Ultraman is probably his most impressive incident. At least off the top of my head. Although he was being influenced by Batman's and Wonder Woman's mind through their link. However Thor seems to be more skilled and effective when he needs to be. Of course he doesn't use super speed as much as Clark so it doesn't muddy the water as much. Shit like him beating opponents that are supposed to significantly superior to him like Grog whose a Class 40 when depowered, or the second Juggernaut fight comes to mind. He mostly brawls, so his repertoire consists of dodging and punching but I'll be damned if the shit isn't effective.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Blanket
If you're going with the brawler route and implying that makes a good fighter, then why are Billy, BA, and Superman below Wonder Woman?

It doesn't matter if you use free style or MA. The most important thing is training. Diana was raised as an fighter, she practiced her entire life. A MA isn't a good fighter because he knows MA (it's just an part), he is good because he practices regularly and learns where to strike. A Brawler who fought his entire life and learned from his battles, will be a match for any MA who practiced his entire life. If you wish, free style or street stlye is an style too, the difference is the simple fact that you ain't teached by an sensai but by life, you develope your own style.

On a side note, the more MA styles you know the better your chances are, simply because one person can't learn every trick by himself. Some things might give you the edge against an brawler.

Mindset
Black Adam - Fedor

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It doesn't matter if you use free style or MA. The most important thing is training. Diana was raised as an fighter, she practiced her entire life. A MA isn't a good fighter because he knows MA (it's just an part), he is good because he practices regularly and learns where to strike. A Brawler who fought his entire life and learned from his battles, will be a match for any MA who practiced his entire life. If you wish, free style or street stlye is an style too, the difference is the simple fact that you ain't teached by an sensai but by life, you develope your own style. So... BA/CM/Superman are above WW is what you're saying?

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Blanket
So... BA/CM/Superman are above WW is what you're saying?

No. no expression I thought i was clear enough... WW has all those three have (experiance in brawls etc) + her lifelong training.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He mostly brawls, so his repertoire consists of dodging and punching but I'll be damned if the shit isn't effective. yes...and?

Superman does all that and a cherry on top.

Still don't see anything thor does in fights that superman doesn't do...better.

753
So is this mellee skill or general combat efficiency? meaning how well one uses whatever powers one has to take out the enemy and not be taken out.

If it's the latter I'd say whoever does better as the underdog and or as a teambuster is the more skilled combatant.

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
No. no expression I thought i was clear enough... WW has all those three have (experiance in brawls etc) + her lifelong training. Look here, the point is that you said something that could be attributed put to Billy, Teth, and gayhomo. Now you're trying to take it back because you think WW is above them. I think it's obvious. I win you lose.

Concession acccepted.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Blanket
Look here, the point is that you said something that could be attributed put to Billy, Teth, and gayhomo. Now you're trying to take it back because you think WW is above them. I think it's obvious. I win you lose.

Concession acccepted.

laughing out loud Quan is that you? No, you just don't understood. MA or not, what counts is experience and training, WW has more then those named.

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
laughing out loud Quan is that you? No, you just don't understood. MA or not, what counts is experience and training, WW has more then those named. Wouldn't this type of logic have Wolverine, and a host of other characters far above Wonder Woman in skill?

And no, I don't believe Superman is above WW in skill, but following your previously mentioned logic, he would be. Also following that logic, Superman has tons upon tons of experience with brawling, and tons of 'training' with it. Just because she has more fine tuning, that doesn't mean she's more skilled (following your logic).

I just don't see how you can so readily pump up Superman's skills based on that logic (I mean, you have him as more than a half as good as WW...), and still put WW above him. I just do not.

Batman-Prime
It would, if they would train more and drink less smile.

Following my logic, with diana being trained since birth and still training, it's next to impossible to become better.

Superman has a lot of experiance and training but still far less then WW. He had a life after all. She just fought other since birth.

A born Gladiator will always be better.

That's why they breed muls in Dark Sun.

Q99
Originally posted by Blanket
Wouldn't this type of logic have Wolverine, and a host of other characters far above Wonder Woman in skill?


No? Diana's fought and trained her entire life and is the best of an island of immortal warriors, Clark's got a lot of experience since becoming a superhero plus training from his colleges, but Wonder Woman was born to it and has been at it even longer.




I'm getting a disconnect here, how are you getting that? Diana has as much experience as Superman, and training from birth with the Amazons.



What Batman-Prime is saying is that brawling and martial arts are both routes to skill, you can reach great skill with either, and with that, Wonder Woman is still the best. Diana has talent, skill, training, and experience, all in spades. She polishes constantly, more than Superman (heck, maybe more than Batman. One JLA showed she took Shiva and Cheetah to the watchtower from prison to train with her and give her analysis of her style from their PoV in exchange for her talking the warden into giving them perks. Bruce was mad about that).

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It would, if they would train more and drink less smile.

Following my logic, with diana being trained since birth and still training, it's next to impossible to become better.

Superman has a lot of experiance and training but still far less then WW. He had a life after all. She just fought other since birth.

A born Gladiator will always be better.

That's why they breed muls in Dark Sun. I think a Wolverine supporter will make a case of all his past lives and him being God's jerking hand. Also, how do you explain Karate Kid?

Yes, I realize all your arguments now (new ones are brought up post to post, so it's hard to follow). But afterall, you did say a good street fighter or brawler could beat a 'blackbelt', and Superman is one of the best brawlers in comics.

Yes, gladiator... anyway, real life being brought up and all, how do you explain GSP being a strong canidate for one of the best p4p fighters in MMA. He hasn't had the experience or amount of training that most guys have had. Or BJ Penn. The guy is just naturally gifted (applicable to Superman), yet is 'lazy' (in MMA), and still destroys people.

Basically, Superman is above WW, or he isn't even close depending on your definition. If this is effectiveness in battle, then Superman is above her... of course his strength could make this a little biased in this regard. If this is skill, then it's no contest.

Also, btw, a good street fighter will defeat a 'black belt' due to the 'black belt's' chin more often than not.

There are a lot of faults in your arguments, IMO. And there are a lot of faults in mine as well, as I don't believe in my own arguments (just using other people's logic), but the main thing here is that Black Adam is way better than Wonder Woman.

Blanket
Originally posted by Q99
No? Diana's fought and trained her entire life and is the best of an island of immortal warriors, Clark's got a lot of experience since becoming a superhero plus training from his colleges, but Wonder Woman was born to it and has been at it even longer.




I'm getting a disconnect here, how are you getting that? Diana has as much experience as Superman, and training from birth with the Amazons.



What Batman-Prime is saying is that brawling and martial arts are both routes to skill, you can reach great skill with either, and with that, Wonder Woman is still the best. Diana has talent, skill, training, and experience, all in spades. She polishes constantly, more than Superman (heck, maybe more than Batman. One JLA showed she took Shiva and Cheetah to the watchtower from prison to train with her and give her analysis of her style from their PoV in exchange for her talking the warden into giving them perks. Bruce was mad about that). I said Wolverine, not Superman. Wolverine has more training than Wonder Woman last I checked.

That Superman has training as well, which iirc (not looking back) refuted the claim that WW 'trained'.
The way I see it. Diana is better than Superman because she trains more, understanding from your post and BP. However, I've been given no understanding of what she's capable of with her skill. I mean, since you guys want to teach me so much, you'd think examples would be a priority. Hence me bringing up Wolverine being better than Diana... because he has more experience and training.

Somebody give me a definition of brawling, because from the way I understood it, throwing caution to the wind and throwing bombs. I was unaware that you could achieve great skill with it.

Right, she trains.

Something, something, something, rushed post, probably missed something.

Q99
Originally posted by Blanket

Basically, Superman is above WW, or he isn't even close depending on your definition. If this is effectiveness in battle, then Superman is above her... of course his strength could make this a little biased in this regard. If this is skill, then it's no contest.

He's more powerful, she's got more combat skills, this is about the later, not the former, but I think you're underestimating Superman's combat skills, he's pretty good in hand to hand and with his powers. I personally put him at maybe 70%.



A good black belt will have real fights under their belt too smile

The point is, both do-it-yourself styles and martial arts styles are ways in which one can get skilled.



I think you're misreading the argument somewhere along the way, though I'm not precisely sure where.




Not from birth from an island of immortal warriors, though, and he's not as focusing on getting better than he already is. Source of training matters too, and also once you get to a certain point of hand to hand, you get to diminishing returns.



No it doesn't. She's trained more and harder from a younger age.



Ah, no. Brawling pretty much just refers to learning to fight as you go, without formal training. It's not just throwing caution to the wind, one can be a cautious brawler, it's just less refined. Simple practice and combat experience will eventually turn anyone into a "martial artist", which is likely the ultimate origin of most martial arts out there.

Superman's been depowered several times and shown himself to be a skilled fighter, and is also better at hand to hand than quite a few of his foes powered or no.

Blanket
Originally posted by Q99
He's more powerful, she's got more combat skills, this is about the later, not the former, but I think you're underestimating Superman's combat skills, he's pretty good in hand to hand and with his powers. I personally put him at maybe 70%.



A good black belt will have real fights under their belt too smile

The point is, both do-it-yourself styles and martial arts styles are ways in which one can get skilled.



I think you're misreading the argument somewhere along the way, though I'm not precisely sure where.




Not from birth from an island of immortal warriors, though, and he's not as focusing on getting better than he already is. Source of training matters too, and also once you get to a certain point of hand to hand, you get to diminishing returns.



No it doesn't. She's trained more and harder from a younger age.



Ah, no. Brawling pretty much just refers to learning to fight as you go, without formal training. It's not just throwing caution to the wind, one can be a cautious brawler, it's just less refined. Simple practice and combat experience will eventually turn anyone into a "martial artist", which is likely the ultimate origin of most martial arts out there.

Superman's been depowered several times and shown himself to be a skilled fighter, and is also better at hand to hand than quite a few of his foes powered or no. If it's about the latter, then why do all five of Superman's skill feats put him in the 70% of someone who's been training all their life?

Right. That is highly irrelevant because the black should not lose by any way other than him not having a good enough chin.
And the do-it-yourself styles will never be anywhere near the value of actual MA styles. Unless you're a freak, ala Bruce Lee.

If you agree with him entirely, then there's no faults. Talk about misreading. Also talk about misreading everytime you try and teach me something new. Misreading. Word of the day.

No way, immortal warriors? That probably defeats Wolverine fighting in pretty much every major event in human history iirc of all his past lives/shit. All of his training with the top MA artists in Marvel, as well. Source does matter... I agree. Which is why Wolverine is not lacking in that area.
When Wolverine's h2h skills start diminishing, then that will be relevant.
Also, wtf at Wolverine not trying to be better than than he is. That must be why he was training under Shang Chi recently.

Right, Superman training doesn't refute the claim that Wonder Woman trains and that makes her auto better than Superman.

That sounds nothing like any definition I've ever heard. Although, doesn't this answer destroy the claim of a brawler defeating a 'black belt'?

I in no way believe Superman could be more skilled than Lex Luthor, Doomsday, Metallo, Darkseid, or even Toyman.

This is getting way too long though... luckily a lot of sentence answers suffices.

Anyway, I'll check back tomorrow.

Batman-Prime
Since Q99 already explained most of your post better then i would have been able to, I will give you an short answer to the other points.

Wolverine is good, as good as you can get IMO, though he gets lazy sometimes.

Karate Kid's MA work more like an Superpower.
And as said, the more you know the better your chances are. Knowledge can give you the edge, though as Bruce Lee teached, you should take the best from each style and drop the rest. One style is far from perfect, there is no uber-style that gives you the auto-win. That's why i would give the fighter with a better and broader MA knowledge the slight edge over another MA-fighter or "Self-teached fighter".
KK knows all styles (impossible but as said, superpower), he is the perfection, though that comes from pre-crisis days and as such is "broken"

I know that a good Street Fighter can beat a Black Belt wink. I saw once an fight, an German Karate "Master" wanted to test his skill in an cage fight. His enemy was more like an hooligan, he rushed, knocked him down, and headbutted him into submission. The fight lasted 20 seconds at best. The difference was simple it seemed, while the Karate Black Belt learned his style in an friendlier atmosphere in sparring conditions he lacked the experience of fighting opponents who don't use Karate and who are ready to hurt you, the Cage Fighter however was experienced and used to the bloody side of the business.
Just an example, there might be others that favour Styles more. The crucial point is then experience and the edge might be the amount of MA skills one attained.

RL and comics might differ, you know stick out tongue. In comics MA are portrayed often like Superpowers, though even then, heroes tend to keep up or win against them. The biggest difference in RL is the personal fitness. Some people are gifted with an better physique, simple.

Look at this bully, he can hold his own against an experienced MMA fighter (ok he sucks but still better then the bully). The Bully still doesn't stands a chance because he seemingly never had an challange in his "fights". However, the Bully is fit as a Schnitzel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbA-Cg4qaZw&feature=related

Q99
Ultimately all *any* fighting is, is learning how to hurt or disable someone while avoiding the same happening to you, and your body reacting better to do so.

X skill is X skill, no matter how you get it, and one 'nice' thing about fighting is you get great feedback on what works and what doesn't from actually fighting, plus you get to see what your opponents do and learn from them, so just fighting a lot is, in some respects, a lot like training, with your foes being the teachers. It's just generally rougher to get there and has some other minor differences.




Her mother and the other Amazons are something like 3,000 years old and keep in practice. Sparring is a primary form of entertainment there.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Wolverine is good, as good as you can get IMO, though he gets lazy sometimes.

There was a recent X-men where he visited a martial arts master in San Fran, and he said "You were better when I trained you 40 years ago!" (or however long) before helping Wolverine get it back with fundamentals training. He sorta has a cycle of being at top, getting sloppy, then having to have someone kick his butt back up every few years smile

That master, Elektra, Shang Chi, etc..

Batman-Prime
^thumb up

I really like Wolverine, I even though about an Wolverine sig, though the hate here is strong and I'm such a sensitive nature embarrasment .

Colossus-Big C
Originally posted by Firestorms


Superman
12%

Captain Marvel (Billy)
4% the hellg_serious

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
He mostly brawls, so his repertoire consists of dodging and punching but I'll be damned if the shit isn't effective.

It may be effective, but as effective as someone like Orion and Wonder Woman? I would not put him on the same footing as those two.

Desaad
Orion is over 100%, then. Dude is skilled combat incarnate. The lack of his very presence diminishes the skills of normal, earthly combatants.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Desaad
Orion is over 100%, then. Dude is skilled combat incarnate. The lack of his very presence diminishes the skills of normal, earthly combatants.

You might be right, though he would be over 100% if he would live on Apocalypse. Now on New Genesis, with all those hippies he has grown soft, so 100% stick out tongue.

Desaad
The guy turned away his first invasion from Apokolips when he was a god damned TODDLER. He doesn't need any more training, it comes naturally. smile

Enyalus
So, when doing my list, I sort of went by this standard:

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It doesn't matter if you use free style or MA. The most important thing is training. Diana was raised as an fighter, she practiced her entire life. A MA isn't a good fighter because he knows MA (it's just an part), he is good because he practices regularly and learns where to strike. A Brawler who fought his entire life and learned from his battles, will be a match for any MA who practiced his entire life. If you wish, free style or street stlye is an style too, the difference is the simple fact that you ain't teached by an sensai but by life, you develope your own style.

On a side note, the more MA styles you know the better your chances are, simply because one person can't learn every trick by himself. Some things might give you the edge against an brawler.

And, taking them at what they can/have done, not necessarily what they always display.

Superman - 95% (Brawling/MA combo is very impressive.)
Orion - 200+ % (Thousands of years old + 90% of the universe's fighting techniques mastered? Check.)
Thor - 90%
Flash (Wally) - 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 70%
Martian Manhunter - 50%
Black Adam - 85% (Maybe the best pure brawler on this list.)
Silver Surfer - 45%
Supergirl - 60%
Power Girl - 65%
Sentry - 20% (Getting owned by Hercules and She-Hulk didn't help here.)
Donna Troy - 85%
Gladiator - 200+ % (Supposedly mastered all fighting techniques in the Shi'ar galaxy, hundreds of years old, career soldier...)

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Enyalus
So, when doing my list, I sort of went by this standard:



And, taking them at what they can/have done, not necessarily what they always display.

Superman - 95% (Brawling/MA combo is very impressive.)
Orion - 200+ % (Thousands of years old + 90% of the universe's fighting techniques mastered? Check.)
Thor - 90%
Flash (Wally) - 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 70%
Martian Manhunter - 50%
Black Adam - 85% (Maybe the best pure brawler on this list.)
Silver Surfer - 45%
Supergirl - 60%
Power Girl - 65%
Sentry - 20% (Getting owned by Hercules and She-Hulk didn't help here.)
Donna Troy - 85%
Gladiator - 200+ % (Supposedly mastered all fighting techniques in the Shi'ar galaxy, hundreds of years old, career soldier...)

I like your list. Though I would put Thor over Superman and Glads 200%? I dunno, it's a bit much considering his win/lose ratio.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I like your list. Though I would put Thor over Superman and Glads 200%? I dunno, it's a bit much considering his win/lose ratio.
Brawl-wise, minus hammer and such, Thor's pretty good. But he's admittedly second-best to Hercules in that department. And I know Hercules isn't even or better with Wondy skill wise.

Glads only showcases his skills sometimes. Like Superman. And for that matter, like Majestic. I guess its difficult to depict those kind of characters with great MA.

Rage.Of.Olympus
The Hercules scene was a bone thrown from Oeming to try and make it fair. Thor's effectiveness in combat is greater than what Hercules has shown.

Enyalus, you put a bit too much stock into claims in my opinion.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
yes...and?

Superman does all that and a cherry on top.

Still don't see anything thor does in fights that superman doesn't do...better.

Not really. Thor's been doing shit when depowered or extremely weakened, that I cannot picture Superman doing.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Enyalus
So, when doing my list, I sort of went by this standard:



And, taking them at what they can/have done, not necessarily what they always display.

Superman - 95% (Brawling/MA combo is very impressive.)
Orion - 200+ % (Thousands of years old + 90% of the universe's fighting techniques mastered? Check.)
Thor - 90%
Flash (Wally) - 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 70%
Martian Manhunter - 50%
Black Adam - 85% (Maybe the best pure brawler on this list.)
Silver Surfer - 45%
Supergirl - 60%
Power Girl - 65%
Sentry - 20% (Getting owned by Hercules and She-Hulk didn't help here.)
Donna Troy - 85%
Gladiator - 200+ % (Supposedly mastered all fighting techniques in the Shi'ar galaxy, hundreds of years old, career soldier...)
Besides Orion and Glad, Nice!

celeyhyga17
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Superman: 65%. Superman is a much better fighter than people give him credit for, me included at one time. Aside from regular sparing with Diana and Batman and the rest of the League, Kal's style of reactionary fighting shows him adapting to whichever situation he's found in. His brief little scuffle in World of New Krypton against another Kryptonian shows that he's not some mindless brawler.

Orion: 95%. This should be a no brainer, honestly. Orion has been fighting for a long, long time.

Thor: 80%. Thor is pretty much one of the best brawlers in his weight class. The guy's sense of warfare and tactics have impressed Captain America before, not to mention Thor has defeated both the Asgardian and Olympian Gods of War (Tyr and Ares) like no one's business.

Flash (Wally): 30%. Wally's been around long enough to use his powers effectively as well as fight prolonged battles at very high speeds.

Captain Marvel (Billy): 45%. Thanks to his own experiences and the Wisdom of Solomon, Billy is able to hold his own against most foes.

Martian Manhunter: 40%. No explanation really needed, imo.

Black Adam: 55%. Adam is smart enough to go all out when he needs to and uses everything at his disposal to handle multiple heroes at once.

Silver Surfer: ?. To be honest, I haven't seen a whole lot of Surfer fights to make an informed judgement.

Supergirl: 25%. Her training with the Amazons as well as her cousin and Batman have paid off when she's been faced with powerful foes.

Power Girl: 50%. It's obvious from her recent fight with Diana, PG has some skill to her name. Regular training and sparring with the JSA - most noticeably Wildcat - keep her pretty sharp.

Sentry: 10%. Bob is basically like a super powered gun. Just point him in the right direction and pull the damn trigger.

Donna Troy: 80%. No explanation hopefully needed here.

Gladiator: 70%. It's obvious Glads is much more than a Superman-esque brick with a funky haircut. He has the skill to fight incredibly effectively.



i give it

superman 70% some good skill
orion 95% highly skilled
thor 90% highly skilled
flash 50% some skill
captain M 60% some skill
martian 70% good skill
black A 75% good skill
silver S 40% ok skill
super girl 40% ok skill
power girl 55% some skill
sentry 15% low skill
donna troy 80% very good skill
gladiator 70% good skill

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The Hercules scene was a bone thrown from Oeming to try and make it fair. Thor's effectiveness in combat is greater than what Hercules has shown.

Enyalus, you put a bit too much stock into claims in my opinion.

erm Hercules literally outfought Thor while pissed out of his ass drunk. It's not just 'claims' or text I'm using when I give an opinion.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
erm Hercules literally outfought Thor while pissed out of his ass drunk. It's not just 'claims' or text I'm using when I give an opinion.

Apparently according to Oeming, he was writing under the impression that Hercules is a better fighter when Drunk. Don't ask me why, but his apparently stated that as one of his reasonings for Hercules having the slight edge unless the quote was faked.

Like I said, it was baseless.

Nah, I was referring to the Gladiator part. And maybe a bit towards the Orion part.

Desaad
Oeming felt that in a grapple, Hercules would have the edge, in part because it's his type of fighting and in part because he is slightly stronger.

Which is fairly legit, I guess. The same way that in all out, no holds bar battle Oeming seemed to think that Ares was more capable than Hercules (despite Hercules being the physically more impressive foe, as he's proven over and over again).

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Enyalus
So, when doing my list, I sort of went by this standard:



And, taking them at what they can/have done, not necessarily what they always display.

Superman - 95% (Brawling/MA combo is very impressive.)
Orion - 200+ % (Thousands of years old + 90% of the universe's fighting techniques mastered? Check.)
Thor - 90%
Flash (Wally) - 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 70%
Martian Manhunter - 50%
Black Adam - 85% (Maybe the best pure brawler on this list.)
Silver Surfer - 45%
Supergirl - 60%
Power Girl - 65%
Sentry - 20% (Getting owned by Hercules and She-Hulk didn't help here.)
Donna Troy - 85%
Gladiator - 200+ % (Supposedly mastered all fighting techniques in the Shi'ar galaxy, hundreds of years old, career soldier...)

I generally agree with this list, except for Orion and Gladiator. I thought it was stated that WW has mastered pretty much all forms of unarmed combat as well as some alien forms as well. Perhaps someone knows the scan. And she is supposed to be proficient with most weapons. Batman did call her the greatest melee fighter on Earth. Shes probably older than Gladiator if we count the years in Asgard. That being said I would say something like . . .

Superman - 80%
Orion - 100-105% (Giving him a possible edge because of age)
Thor - 85%
Flash - 20%
Captain Marvel - 65%
Martian Manhunter - 50%
Black Adam - 75%
Silver Surfer - 45%
Supergirl - 60%
Power Girl - 65%
Sentry - 20%
Donna Troy - 85%
Gladiator - 95%

And I forgot to add him to the original list, but I'd list Hercules at 90%

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
Since Q99 already explained most of your post better then i would have been able to, I will give you an short answer to the other points.

Wolverine is good, as good as you can get IMO, though he gets lazy sometimes.

Karate Kid's MA work more like an Superpower.
And as said, the more you know the better your chances are. Knowledge can give you the edge, though as Bruce Lee teached, you should take the best from each style and drop the rest. One style is far from perfect, there is no uber-style that gives you the auto-win. That's why i would give the fighter with a better and broader MA knowledge the slight edge over another MA-fighter or "Self-teached fighter".
KK knows all styles (impossible but as said, superpower), he is the perfection, though that comes from pre-crisis days and as such is "broken"

I know that a good Street Fighter can beat a Black Belt wink. I saw once an fight, an German Karate "Master" wanted to test his skill in an cage fight. His enemy was more like an hooligan, he rushed, knocked him down, and headbutted him into submission. The fight lasted 20 seconds at best. The difference was simple it seemed, while the Karate Black Belt learned his style in an friendlier atmosphere in sparring conditions he lacked the experience of fighting opponents who don't use Karate and who are ready to hurt you, the Cage Fighter however was experienced and used to the bloody side of the business.
Just an example, there might be others that favour Styles more. The crucial point is then experience and the edge might be the amount of MA skills one attained.

RL and comics might differ, you know stick out tongue. In comics MA are portrayed often like Superpowers, though even then, heroes tend to keep up or win against them. The biggest difference in RL is the personal fitness. Some people are gifted with an better physique, simple.

Look at this bully, he can hold his own against an experienced MMA fighter (ok he sucks but still better then the bully). The Bully still doesn't stands a chance because he seemingly never had an challange in his "fights". However, the Bully is fit as a Schnitzel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbA-Cg4qaZw&feature=related k

Lazy sometimes. Not sure when. When he's not training, he's fighting, when he's not fighting, he's riding a motorcycle and fighting, when he's not doing that, he's drinking and fighting. It's not like he takes a break in one of his millions of issues, he's fighting in pretty much all of them.

And are explained as him training them with no super powers.
I realize, although I wouldn't give the MA fighter with broad knowledge a slight edge over a self trained fighter... hell, even an MMA fighter with vast experience who starts self training himself after a while will lose to full time dedicates (example, 'Mach' losing to Gono and Marius).
Right. And he hasn't trained as long, or had as much experience as WW.

Or the fact that the Karate master doesn't have a chin like I earlier said. And Karate doesn't translate well into actual fights (unless you're Machida). As well as I'm sure the guy wasn't just a street fighter, and from the sounds of the headbutting notion... it sounds like you're talking about Wanderlei Silva...
Also, if headbutts were allowed, then you're talking about like 15 years ago; when everyone was one dimensional.

That's the biggest difference? Isn't that a big difference in comics as well?

I'm not even going to click the Youtube video, because I already guarantee I know what you're talking about.

First things first, Thomas Denny is terrible, and lacks a chin.
Second thing. Those aren't even MMA fights, and the first round is submissions (something Thomas Denny isn't exactly known for), and the second round has modified kickboxing rules (without knees or kicks to the head, and with shin guards and head gear), which again, Thomas Denny is not exactly known for. However, assuming this was a full MMA fight, Thomas Denny would have still beaten him on the decision. And if that was a capable MMA fighter, the 'Bully' (we don't even know how much training he's had, as everyone and Jesus is training MMA now) would have gotten nothing.

Batman-Prime

Blanket

Blanket
Also to the definition of 'brawling' that Q99 gave me earlier.
"Box a brawler, brawl a boxer"
Chris Leben

This goes with my original meaning that I gave for brawling, but whatever I guess...

Batman-Prime
I don't know what you think a brawler is, but i already gave you my definition and I'm not sure how much of an excuse your factor of the chin is but as said, someone who isn't an trained MA but who has fought his entire life real fights, who has learned and tought himself how to fight will beat most if not all MA master who just honed their skills in non-serious sparring matches and in their gym.
Factoring Superman's brawling and leaving out everything WW has done and experienced herselve, then yes. You do not listen, WW has everything Supes has and more (skill experience).

He doesn't needs to refresh his skills, only when he gets his ass beaten. Concession accepted.

As said before "In comics MA are portrayed often like Superpowers"
With MA you can beat 20 people (often also skilled fighters like Ninjas), in RL impossible. And those techniques of KK are from alien worlds and they did stuff in the pc that are insane.

MAA are overrated :/. You opinion might differ but you seem to watch and read without thinking yourself, you shouldn't believe everything you hear. Yes I watch UFC from time to time and to be honest, it's not nearly as entertaining as K1, and kind of overrated. It's not close to real fighting as you think as long as there are rules.
I agree, everything was already said, it will end in circular "arguments".
And again Comics MA =/= RL MA.

The need to comment on the Rules comes from the fact that a "brawler" (self trained fighter, street fighter etc.) is someone who fights real fights, without rules.

If I wanted to see real fighting I would have to go where war is...

The more you fight the tougher you get.

K.

K.

So out of curiosity, since you are such an MA expert yourself no expression. Do you train ? Have you fought someone in RL?

I would also like to see your list to the topic.

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
I don't know what you think a brawler is, but i already gave you my definition and I'm not sure how much of an excuse your factor of the chin is but as said, someone who isn't an trained MA but who has fought his entire life real fights, who has learned and tought himself how to fight will beat most if not all MA master who just honed their skills in non-serious sparring matches and in their gym.
Factoring Superman's brawling and leaving out everything WW has done and experienced herselve, then yes. You do not listen, WW has everything Supes has and more (skill experience).

He doesn't needs to refresh his skills, only when he gets his ass beaten. Concession accepted.

As said before "In comics MA are portrayed often like Superpowers"
With MA you can beat 20 people (often also skilled fighters like Ninjas), in RL impossible. And those techniques of KK are from alien worlds and they did stuff in the pc that are insane.

MAA are overrated :/. You opinion might differ but you seem to watch and read without thinking yourself, you shouldn't believe everything you hear. Yes I watch UFC from time to time and to be honest, it's not nearly as entertaining as K1, and kind of overrated. It's not close to real fighting as you think as long as there are rules.
I agree, everything was already said, it will end in a circular "arguments".
And again Comics MA =/= RL MA.

The need to comment on the Rules comes from the fact that a "brawler" (self trained fighter, street fighter etc.) is someone who fights real fights, without rules.

If I wanted to see real fighting I would have to go where war is...

The more you fight the tougher you get.

K.

K.

So out of curiosity, since you are such an MA expert yourself no expression. Do you train ? Have you fought someone in RL? And if your definition was what I think it was, it's wrong.
How could a 'master' be a master with only having non-serious sparring sessions under his belt?

But you yourself are leaving out everything WW has ever done in favour of her 'training' and 'experience'. You never brought up how skillful she is, you only brought up how long she's been doing 'stuff'.
Either way, if you haven't noticed, I've been signing myself on to your line of logic the whole time we've been talking about this. If I do not listen, it's simply because your line of logic has a loophole against it.

Bad choice of words I admit. What I meant to say was that when he gets his ass beaten, that is when he goes through the phase of learning everything he's ever learned and more. Example is the recent Shang Chi training.

I realize what you said. However, if you want to make a parallel between comics and the real world, then you can't simply say they are like super powers after already making the example. In comics, they aren't superpowers. Portrayal and what things are is something else entirely.

Um, all I do is read and think when I'm looking at something. What you seem to be doing is exactly what you said I'm doing.
Anyway, entertainment has nothing to do with things being overrated. Fact is, I love K-1/kickboxing too, but I also wasn't talking about UFC being a real fight either. It's close, but I was comparing old school pride, and now Vale Tudo to real fights, as they have less rules, and less restrictions (Vale Tudo was everything), and even then, the most skilled person (Wanderlei) came out of top in everyone of those fights (except one where he split his head open headbutting that he was dominating). Against tough guys, and against lesser skilled people.
BTW, I don't understand the need to bring real life up when you're going to 'trash' the closest thing we have to visual evidence of a natural fight. erm
Then why bring up real life?

Right, rules, no rules. TBH, I'm a little thrown by what you're trying to get at here. Is it that a street fighter is harder than an MMA fighter, because yeah yeah yeah, he's so hard?
If you honestly suscribe that a street fighter would be a matchup for an MMA fighter on the street, then uh dunno. Your point is laughable to a point where I wish I could copy and paste it.

Right. War. Only real fighting. Refresh me on why real life was brought up again if we're going to discredit everything now apparently that isn't war? BTW, war has rules. Those bitches. No chemical warfare? Jeeze, why don't they just sow up their vaginas now?

And the more you get hit in the face, the weaker your chin gets...
Seriously, I should have just stopped at the 'MAA is overated' section.

I never fancied myself anything. You're the one who fancies themselves an expert in all the aspects of what will work, what is entertainment, and what is overrated.
Now I do.
Not in a ring.

Question since I've seen you bring up K-1 twice now:
Do you think a street fighter can beat a kickboxer like Badr Hari, or Remy Bonjasky in a K-1 fight?

xJLxKing
LMAO at the sight of Blanket debating

Blanket
Originally posted by xJLxKing
LMAO at the sight of Blanket debating It's not all sex appeal with me.

Also, Batman-Prime (don't want to edit, since you won't see it); what was the point of bringing up Thomas Denny on Bully Beatdown when they have even more rules than MMA, if you're going to turn around and discredit the rules in MMA?

Batman-Prime
So what you think I though is wrong, ok.
Ask all those Black Belts out there.

It's about fighting skills. I just noted that an MA Style isn't the most important thing to become a skilled fighter, it isn't even one of the most important things. Either you are misinterpreting me or I'm not clear enough.

Bad choice of words, yes I'm familiar with this, I also have a hard time explain what I mean...
And he relearns what he has "forgotten". We agree after all i guess.

"Portrayal and what things are is something else entirely." I agree.

Ok, that's my fault, when I started to talk about MMA I thought about UFC. MMA aren't only restricted to UFC.
The Cage Fight i saw, and you might be right with those 15 years, was quite close.
RL is an reference comics use. But it seems we talk past each other, so let's keep it simple.
Experience(real fighting) > MA (Style + Training)
MA Fighter (with a lot real fighting experience) >= Brawler (with a lot fighting experience)

Street Fighter = someone who ocassionally brawls with people? I think that's what you are thinking. Yes someone like this has no chance against an experience MMA fighter. Because the MMA fighter has way more experience.
What I try to get at here is, if you would fight you entire life, fighting for your life, surviving and learning (fcition you know) how to kill, you would develop your own style if you wish to call it so and then you would probably be harder then an MMA Fighter and trash said fighter even though he has leaner MA skills.
Not discredit, become more clear and put it all in relation to each other.
Yeah, war has rules... I bet everyone follows those rules yesdur

Once the healing process... oh forget it...stick out tongue
Yes you should. UFC is overrated. MAA is helpful, better?

No I just gave my opinion. You questioned my opinion and it seemed like you wanted to imply that your opinion > mine. :/ So i wanted to know why you think this.
What MA are you learning?
So you fought on the street? In school? Who won? Is this the reason you started to train?

A Street Fighter? No, I doubt there is an street fighter these days who has as much experience as Remy. Most people who fight on the street learn that our civilization doesn't approve violence... no expression

Question: Do you think an Black Belt who just sparred in his Gym and perfected his technique, would beat someone who has never learned an MA but who has faught his entire life and killed a lot of people with his bare hands?

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Blanket
It's not all sex appeal with me.

Also, Batman-Prime (don't want to edit, since you won't see it); what was the point of bringing up Thomas Denny on Bully Beatdown when they have even more rules than MMA, if you're going to turn around and discredit the rules in MMA?

The Bully had some experience fighting weak people, he had no chance against an MMA fighter with more and better experience. Due to his physical fitness however he performed surprisingly well against an superior opponent. The point is, the physcial condition is more important then MA, though not as much as experience.

Since you said once you use an Wii, maybe you can tell me how to get this thing online. I have an Windows Vista PC or an MacBook pro, I use an LAN connection though both computers could establish an WLAN connection. Is there a way to connect my Wii via WLAN with my PC and then with the internet?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
LMAO at the sight of Blanket debating

Most improved poster. big grin

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So what you think I though is wrong, ok.
Ask all those Black Belts out there.

It's about fighting skills. I just noted that an MA Style isn't the most important thing to become a skilled fighter, it isn't even one of the most important things. Either you are misinterpreting me or I'm not clear enough.

Bad choice of words, yes I'm familiar with this, I also have a hard time explain what I mean...
And he relearns what he has "forgotten". We agree after all i guess.

"Portrayal and what things are is something else entirely." I agree.

Ok, that's my fault, when I started to talk about MMA I thought about UFC. MMA aren't only restricted to UFC.
The Cage Fight i saw, and you might be right with those 15 years, was quite close.
RL is an reference comics use. But it seems we talk past each other, so let's keep it simple.
Experience(real fighting) > MA (Style + Training)
MA Fighter (with a lot real fighting experience) >= Brawler (with a lot fighting experience)

Street Fighter = someone who ocassionally brawls with people? I think that's what you are thinking. Yes someone like this has no chance against an experience MMA fighter. Because the MMA fighter has way more experience.
What I try to get at here is, if you would fight you entire life, fighting for your life, surviving and learning (fcition you know) how to kill, you would develop your own style if you wish to call it so and then you would probably be harder then an MMA Fighter and trash said fighter even though he has leaner MA skills.
Not discredit, become more clear and put it all in relation to each other.
Yeah, war has rules... I bet everyone follows those rules yesdur

Once the healing process... oh forget it...stick out tongue
Yes you should. UFC is overrated. MAA is helpful, better?

No I just gave my opinion. You questioned my opinion and it seemed like you wanted to imply that your opinion > mine. :/ So i wanted to know why you think this.
What MA are you learning?
So you fought on the street? In school? Who won? Is this the reason you started to train?

A Street Fighter? No, I doubt there is an street fighter these days who has as much experience as Remy. Most people who fight on the street learn that our civilization doesn't approve violence... no expression

Question: Do you think an Black Belt who just sparred in his Gym and perfected his technique, would beat someone who has never learned an MA but who has faught his entire life and killed a lot of people with his bare hands? Yes. A brawler is not someone who is just learning to fight. A brawler is someone who throws it out there with caution to the wind.
I'm still a little confused on your use of blackbelts... Unless you're talking about TKD, because then, I agree with you that a street fighter would win more often than not.

Must be not clear enough, because I only remember you bringing up MA style once...
Anyway, you haven't brought up skills though. I know this because you haven't. I've been waiting this entire argument for you to do so. I think I even remarked on it earlier.

I never said he relearns what he forgot. I said he relearns what he learned before. Essentially, training what he already knows and learning more stuff. Going back to the basics in other words.

k.

A mistake many make. Especially Nuul, but that's beside the point. Either way, a lot has changed in those 15 years. 15 years ago, I would agree that a street fighter could beat the average MMA fighter... I mean, look at Tank, but now, I disagree entirely.

But MA is also experience, so how can this be overlooked? You can't train a style without gaining experience.
An MA fighter with a lot of experience would be over the street fighter by a bit (depending on the style). An MMA fighter with a lot of experience would destroy the Street fighter.

K. Although I'd like to get your definition of a street fighter because you seem to be confusing street fighters with Rambo...
Well ya, if you've developed a style that kills people... no expression
Though, even by that definition, the 'street fighter' (if you can call him that anymore) would still be sloppy, and still be lacking in a lot of other areas. The reason people get better is because they have coaches, and train all the time. As well as have tapes to research and can look at all there mistakes. Those are luxuries street fighters don't have, and when a good street fighter aquires such resources, then they become better. As such, farther proving that MMA training is better than being self trained.

War does follow those rules though. Or else the UN writes angry letters.

MMA.

I never think my opinion is better than others. What I think is that things I say make more sense than others. I said your argument has faults, as does mine. I think you're wrong, but I don't think that me saying something has more basis than you saying something. I think that the subject matter at hand has a strong factor to do with this.
If that's what you're implying. Outside of implications, yes, I think my opinion > yours right now.
Basic wrestling, MT, and BJJ. Need better gym.
Me. No, the real reason I started to train was because of me having an extremely sloppy drunk 'boxing' match with one of my friends. Haymakers all around until I got kneed in the nuts.

So, why would a street fighter beat an MA master? Surely an MA master could nullify things like headbutts and stomps, no? As that's the only advantage a street fighter would theoretically have, outside of 'no experience' masters.

More often than not, yes. Depends on which style though of course. Karate/TKD (things that need black belts), no, although actually, Karate would probably. MT, american kickboxing, etc, yes. One leg kick would seriously **** someone up who's not used to this.
Of course, this is ignoring the notion that street fighters are killers that kills with their bare hands. no expression

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
The Bully had some experience fighting weak people, he had no chance against an MMA fighter with more and better experience. Due to his physical fitness however he performed surprisingly well against an superior opponent. The point is, the physcial condition is more important then MA, though not as much as experience.

Since you said once you use an Wii, maybe you can tell me how to get this thing online. I have an Windows Vista PC or an MacBook pro, I use an LAN connection though both computers could establish an WLAN connection. Is there a way to connect my Wii via WLAN with my PC and then with the internet?



Most improved poster. big grin He did well because Thomas Denny doesn't really do well on the ground that I've seen, and a lot of his basic attacks were taken away from him in the standup. Any real MMA fighter I've ever heard from always says that mindset is the most important. It's just that the bully was fighting someone with extremely thick padding, had headkicks/knees taken away, and Thomas Denny was already not known for his power anyway...

I'm not sure you can connect it from the computers via that way. I know mine only connects to a router, so uh dunno.
You can turn your Wii on and go to the settings though when you establish the connection and see what happens. It should be able to pick it up automatically when you search for an access point if you can indeed do it that way.

Least improved poster.

Batman-Prime
So mine definition differs, I understand an Brawler (or Street Fighter) someone who has no MA-Style just his own Style.

Originally posted by Batman-Prime
It doesn't matter if you use free style or MA. The most important thing is training. Diana was raised as an fighter, she practiced her entire life. A MA isn't a good fighter because he knows MA (it's just an part), he is good because he practices regularly and learns where to strike. A Brawler who fought his entire life and learned from his battles, will be a match for any MA who practiced his entire life. If you wish, free style or street stlye is an style too, the difference is the simple fact that you ain't teached by an sensai but by life, you develope your own style.

On a side note, the more MA styles you know the better your chances are, simply because one person can't learn every trick by himself. Some things might give you the edge against an brawler.

Here, first page, me tallking about styles.
Martial Arts = All the different Styles. Else Brawling would qualify as MA too, right? I think it's more like an free style.

This whole thread is about fighting skills no expression. "If Wonder Woman is 100% (in skill), rate these guys . . ." We talk about our interpretation of Skill, i guess.

Forgot was the wrong word, rusty, better?

Good.

I don't deny that it is experience but this experienced is inferior to a more serious "experience". The more rules you have the less experienced you will become in a sense.
Depends on the Street Fighter and your definition of said one.

Brawler, street fighter = someone who learned and fought his entire life (or a big part of it) for survival? The street fighters you think of are just kids in the neighborhood.

You kann kill people with you bare hands too, you know? You don't even have to use hands btw, you can kick someone to death. Beat him to the ground and repeat kicking his head, stomp on it or strangle him with your bare hands. no expression

I don't deny that it's better then being self trained no expression. If you train for yourself and fight against your twin who was tought by an MA, well he will kick your ass, most probably. If you however grow up, fighting regular for survival and your twin perfects his MA-style and gets some UFC experience, you will most probably kill him.

Yes, the World is scared of those letters scared

Typo, distractions everywhere :/.


It's what you implied the moment you started this "argument".
And now you admitted it smile.

Good. Your ambitions are?
You are no street fighter though this "until I got kneed in the nuts" however is an part of "real fighting".

Depends on the Street Fighter and the MA master. no expression
Let them fight to death and see how much style you will find in such an encounter...

I disagree. You assume that your enemy waits and let's you do as you wish. That's why I expanded this "debate" to the killer argument. UFC, MA etc. follow rules, they aren't "real" fighting. It's a different state of mind if you fight for your life or for money (fame, whatever).

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Blanket
He did well because Thomas Denny doesn't really do well on the ground that I've seen, and a lot of his basic attacks were taken away from him in the standup. Any real MMA fighter I've ever heard from always says that mindset is the most important. It's just that the bully was fighting someone with extremely thick padding, had headkicks/knees taken away, and Thomas Denny was already not known for his power anyway...

I'm not sure you can connect it from the computers via that way. I know mine only connects to a router, so uh dunno.
You can turn your Wii on and go to the settings though when you establish the connection and see what happens. It should be able to pick it up automatically when you search for an access point if you can indeed do it that way.

Least improved poster.

So you mean a fat boy would have performed as well as the russian? no expression
Excuses, nothing more.

Ok, thanks I guess i will have to buy an usb-ethernet adaptersad.

Thank you, how kind hehe

shokosugi
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Since these kinds of topics seem so popular at the moment, here is another one.

If Wonder Woman is considered 100% with regards to fighting skill/ability, where would the following characters fall? (Feel free to be lazy like me and just put them in order or any other type of designation you may choose)

Superman
Orion
Thor
Flash (Wally)
Captain Marvel (Billy)
Martian Manhunter
Black Adam
Silver Surfer
Supergirl
Power Girl
Silver Surfer
Sentry
Donna Troy
Gladiator



Superman - 150
Orion - 95
Thor - 95 (fights mostly b-level villains)
Flash (Wally) - 95
Captain Marvel (Billy) - 100
Martian Manhunter - 105
Black Adam - 95
Silver Surfer - 95
Supergirl - 80
Power Girl - 80
Sentry -80
Donna Troy - 80
Gladiator - 90

batdude123
haermm

Q99
Nooo, I think several of the prior lists are more accurate than that one smile She's obviously somewhat more skilled than Superman, and quite a bit more skilled than PG.

meep-meep
Originally posted by Blanket


i dont mean to deviate or distract from the debate at hand, however gsp is known for his commitment to training and practice. He is by no means 'lazy' in any sense of the word. He is simply very commited, intelligent and humble. And that is why he excels and is a very good fighter.

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So mine definition differs, I understand an Brawler (or Street Fighter) someone who has no MA-Style just his own Style.



Here, first page, me tallking about styles.
Martial Arts = All the different Styles. Else Brawling would qualify as MA too, right? I think it's more like an free style.

This whole thread is about fighting skills no expression. "If Wonder Woman is 100% (in skill), rate these guys . . ." We talk about our interpretation of Skill, i guess.

Forgot was the wrong word, rusty, better?

Good.

I don't deny that it is experience but this experienced is inferior to a more serious "experience". The more rules you have the less experienced you will become in a sense.
Depends on the Street Fighter and your definition of said one.

Brawler, street fighter = someone who learned and fought his entire life (or a big part of it) for survival? The street fighters you think of are just kids in the neighborhood.

You kann kill people with you bare hands too, you know? You don't even have to use hands btw, you can kick someone to death. Beat him to the ground and repeat kicking his head, stomp on it or strangle him with your bare hands. no expression

I don't deny that it's better then being self trained no expression. If you train for yourself and fight against your twin who was tought by an MA, well he will kick your ass, most probably. If you however grow up, fighting regular for survival and your twin perfects his MA-style and gets some UFC experience, you will most probably kill him.

Yes, the World is scared of those letters scared

Typo, distractions everywhere :/.


It's what you implied the moment you started this "argument".
And now you admitted it smile.

Good. Your ambitions are?
You are no street fighter though this "until I got kneed in the nuts" however is an part of "real fighting".

Depends on the Street Fighter and the MA master. no expression
Let them fight to death and see how much style you will find in such an encounter...

I disagree. You assume that your enemy waits and let's you do as you wish. That's why I expanded this "debate" to the killer argument. UFC, MA etc. follow rules, they aren't "real" fighting. It's a different state of mind if you fight for your life or for money (fame, whatever). K. I was just going by what I heard fighters, and analysts talk about.

Brawling is not a style. Brawling on it's own is a sloppy mess. If you want an example of brawling mixed with a style, look no farther than your own Melvin Manhoef.

Yes, I realize, but examples of her skill are lacking. The only reason up to this point that she could be considered above Superman was because she trained longer, and more. Not because her fighting skills on panel are terrific, but because of her training a long time. And that, is just something I can not accept, and had 'brawlers' can defeat MA masters never been brought up, we would have never been in this pickle that is called a debate.

Honing, and learning something new.

No seriously... what?
Basically, you're implying that those fighters from the convict fights or whatever, would beat a real MMA fighter inside those same rules. And that's just terrible.

No, the street fighters I'm thinking of aren't people who kill often in the street and get away with it apparently. Wait, didn't you bring up a point of street fighters not being hard enough now a days to compete with K-1 fighters?

I realize. And then after that happens, you get put in jail, and either lose all your experience from getting the shit beat out of you and killed by many guys in prison, or you get shanked, etc.
Also, I think it's rare that a street fight ends in death due to human means as opposed to weapons...

Until he knocks you out, takes you down, submits you, etc. Everything a street fighter is capable of, an MMA fighter is, but even moreso, and on a more fine tuned level. You think someone with wrestling experience isn't going to take you down and have his way with you? Basically, your whole argument can be summed up in Rihanna's 'Hard' song, no offense.

Exactly. Which is why war isn't true fighting because it has rules. Street fighting doesn't. Street fighting > war.

I only adressed your typo, as that was the only substance. I don't often get distracted by white batteries that are sitting right beside me that I can't recharge or they'll ruin my recharger, and I need a special recharger to recharge them.

Every argument stems from one person thinking that their opinion is better than the other persons. The difference is ego, cockyness, and ass hole-ishness.

To never be that sloppy again.
I never claimed to be a street fighter, or an MMA fighter though. You asked a question, and I answered it. Although I'm glad I don't live in rougher cities where nut kneeing, and shanking is predominate.

I find it highly unlikely an MA master, or MMA fighter would suddenly fight out of style based on a 'death match'. Either way, like I said, they have all the tools to accomplish their tasks. A street fighter is not versed in wrestling or BJJ. As well as the standup skill, and knowhow to deal with someone sloppily coming at them with haymakers. I've seen someone trained in boxing one punch a self proclaimed 'street fighter' after dodging a haymaker. You go on Youtube and find a boxer beating the shit out of two guys. You go on youtube and find a boxer holding off a horde of people. Hell even the latest parody of Forrest vs Silva had a kid dodging haymakers and then beating the **** out of him. Listen to all of Bas Rutten's stories, or of Alistair and his brother supposedly beating up a ton of bouncers. The closest thing we also have to visual evidence of 'real' street fighters is the convict fights or whatever the hell it's called. And I would laugh my ass off if those guys could beat any semi touted MMA fighter.

No. I assume that someone who has trained for half his life in fighting arts fighting other people who have trained for half of their life in fighting arts would beat a self trained 'Street fighter'.

*cough* Tank Abbott *cough*

Blanket
Originally posted by Batman-Prime
So you mean a fat boy would have performed as well as the russian? no expression
Excuses, nothing more.

Ok, thanks I guess i will have to buy an usb-ethernet adaptersad.

Thank you, how kind hehe I don't recall saying that physical condition wasn't important. It's just not as important as mindset. Either way, it's obvious the guy had some experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if Denny failed to put away a 'fat boy' under those conditions.

k. Originally posted by meep-meep
i dont mean to deviate or distract from the debate at hand, however gsp is known for his commitment to training and practice. He is by no means 'lazy' in any sense of the word. He is simply very commited, intelligent and humble. And that is why he excels and is a very good fighter. I was talking strictly about how long he's been doing it.

batdude123
GSP started training in Kyokushin Karate at age 7. It's not like he's new to fighting/MMA.

Blanket
Originally posted by batdude123
GSP started training in Kyokushin Karate at age 7. It's not like he's new to fighting/MMA. Yes, but he started training his most dominant aspect at a very late age.

batdude123
Originally posted by Blanket
Yes, but he started training his most dominant aspect at a very late age.

Then you could have just said he became a great wrestler very quickly. uhuh

Blanket
Originally posted by batdude123
Then you could have just said he became a great wrestler very quickly. uhuh His great wrestling opened doors for him to become sexy.

Either way, completely null as a bloodlusted street fighter would kill him.

batdude123
Originally posted by Blanket
Either way, completely null as a bloodlusted street fighter would kill him.

A bloodlusted street fighter would not be impressed by his pair-for-mance.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Desaad
Oeming felt that in a grapple, Hercules would have the edge, in part because it's his type of fighting and in part because he is slightly stronger.

Which is fairly legit, I guess. The same way that in all out, no holds bar battle Oeming seemed to think that Ares was more capable than Hercules (despite Hercules being the physically more impressive foe, as he's proven over and over again).

Where did Oeming say that he felt Hercules was slightly stronger?

The grappling part makes sense as grappling is what Hercules is best at. All and all, it's not that bad. What annoys me is that it stemmed from this need of things to be fair and not because Hercules' and Thor's history back it up.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What annoys me is that it made thor look bad FIFY

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
FIFY

erm

Don't you have anything better to do than troll me?

I could respond in a clever remark, but honestly, at this point, I'm tired of proving how stupid you are. It's just....boring and beneath me now.

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Don't you have anything better to do than troll me?
not at the moment, no. no expression

Blanket
Originally posted by Starscream M
not at the moment, no. no expression Say something better than that. Tell him how much better Hercules is than Thor at fighting.

I don't want to make anymore big posts.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
not at the moment, no. no expression

I thought you said you went to Harvard? You'd think you'd be more busy.

Blanket
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I thought you said you went to Harvard? You'd think you'd be more busy. He's done in a jiffy. Peak human brain and all.

Batman-Prime
Originally posted by Blanket
K. I was just going by what I heard fighters, and analysts talk about.

Brawling is not a style. Brawling on it's own is a sloppy mess. If you want an example of brawling mixed with a style, look no farther than your own Melvin Manhoef.

Yes, I realize, but examples of her skill are lacking. The only reason up to this point that she could be considered above Superman was because she trained longer, and more. Not because her fighting skills on panel are terrific, but because of her training a long time. And that, is just something I can not accept, and had 'brawlers' can defeat MA masters never been brought up, we would have never been in this pickle that is called a debate.

Honing, and learning something new.

No seriously... what?
Basically, you're implying that those fighters from the convict fights or whatever, would beat a real MMA fighter inside those same rules. And that's just terrible.

No, the street fighters I'm thinking of aren't people who kill often in the street and get away with it apparently. Wait, didn't you bring up a point of street fighters not being hard enough now a days to compete with K-1 fighters?

I realize. And then after that happens, you get put in jail, and either lose all your experience from getting the shit beat out of you and killed by many guys in prison, or you get shanked, etc.
Also, I think it's rare that a street fight ends in death due to human means as opposed to weapons...

Until he knocks you out, takes you down, submits you, etc. Everything a street fighter is capable of, an MMA fighter is, but even moreso, and on a more fine tuned level. You think someone with wrestling experience isn't going to take you down and have his way with you? Basically, your whole argument can be summed up in Rihanna's 'Hard' song, no offense.

Exactly. Which is why war isn't true fighting because it has rules. Street fighting doesn't. Street fighting > war.

I only adressed your typo, as that was the only substance. I don't often get distracted by white batteries that are sitting right beside me that I can't recharge or they'll ruin my recharger, and I need a special recharger to recharge them.

Every argument stems from one person thinking that their opinion is better than the other persons. The difference is ego, cockyness, and ass hole-ishness.

To never be that sloppy again.
I never claimed to be a street fighter, or an MMA fighter though. You asked a question, and I answered it. Although I'm glad I don't live in rougher cities where nut kneeing, and shanking is predominate.

I find it highly unlikely an MA master, or MMA fighter would suddenly fight out of style based on a 'death match'. Either way, like I said, they have all the tools to accomplish their tasks. A street fighter is not versed in wrestling or BJJ. As well as the standup skill, and knowhow to deal with someone sloppily coming at them with haymakers. I've seen someone trained in boxing one punch a self proclaimed 'street fighter' after dodging a haymaker. You go on Youtube and find a boxer beating the shit out of two guys. You go on youtube and find a boxer holding off a horde of people. Hell even the latest parody of Forrest vs Silva had a kid dodging haymakers and then beating the **** out of him. Listen to all of Bas Rutten's stories, or of Alistair and his brother supposedly beating up a ton of bouncers. The closest thing we also have to visual evidence of 'real' street fighters is the convict fights or whatever the hell it's called. And I would laugh my ass off if those guys could beat any semi touted MMA fighter.

No. I assume that someone who has trained for half his life in fighting arts fighting other people who have trained for half of their life in fighting arts would beat a self trained 'Street fighter'.

*cough* Tank Abbott *cough*

K. If that works for you, fine. smile

How would you call it then if someone fights his entire life without learning an particular MA-Style? I think brawling or street fighting works best to describe those people. You can stop giving out names so freely btw, I believe you watch a lot of MMA erm , no need to impress me.

Then you should read up. Athene gifted her with skill and she has show them more then once. What you accept and what not isn't canon though no expression .
And brawlers defeated MA Masters already, it's nothing new. Though with you weak chin argument it becomes meaningless i guess.

Ok, rusty then.

No, basically what I implied is: An experienced fighter who doesn't know any MA-Style can beat an MMA fighter if they fight without rules. You won't get enough experience in our peaceful days but since the characters in comic fight quite often for their lives, they do. So after a while they can be a match for MA.
What you seem to think is that an MMA fighter will win everytime against someone (who has no knowledge of MA-Styles), it doesn't matter where he comes from, what he did and what he lived through. And that's just terrible.

Because there aren't many if any Street Fighters out there? We live in modern times, violence isn't tolerated and opposed to the comics our society deals quite efficiently with the people who disagree. no expression

Good. Just wanted to make sure you know that one doesn't need MA knowledge to kill someone (the killing technique!), it's nothing special after all. smile
I don't know if there are any street fighters but Manslaughter isn't as uncommon as it should be, unfortunatly.

Leave me out of those fights, pls. Depends on the Street Fighter. You can generalize everything if you wish. MMA fighters might impress you and they might be impressive in our peaceful part of the world but they Are Not the Be-All and End-All in the world, if it comes down to fighting. erm No offense taken, but you listen to Rihanna? Seriously?

I would give you a facepalm but I guess you are joking. War and rules, a funny though.

Now you are cocky.

You don't have to confess, I'm no priest. smile

That explains a lot. You know, not everyone has to be sloppy just because you are/were.
I'm glad I live in a peaceful part of the world too. smile

They wouldn't have much choice I guess. Improvise or die. You still imply that everyone is sloppy. If someone would be used to fight seriously, for his live for example, do you honestly think he would be sloppy? erm
Give them a reason and they might surprise you.

You assume that every fighter who wasn't trained in MA (Styles) is sloppy and has no fighting skills, which is honestly pure BS.
I assume that someone who wasn't teached any technique but who has learned how to fight in "real" fights (without rules and without conscience) half of his life, would waste an "sparring" only MA Master and would most probably beat an MMA fighter, in an fight without rules.
If you wish, fighting with rules is an Sport.

*cough*impressive you knowledge*cough*

As for the russian and the fat boy example, Concession accepted.

So what do you think?
MA-Style > experience > physical condition?

IMO experience >= physical condtion > MA-Styles.

Oh and no need to feel offended just because I don't give MA the credit you think it deserves. smile

Juk3n
Originally posted by Batman-Prime


IMO experience >= physical condtion > MA-Styles.



Thor and Hercules are not more skillfull than Ironfist yet they have 100's of times more experience, if they were given peak human bodies akin to Dannys, he would wreck them at the same time.

i guess thats the experience > ma styles out the window then..

Wild Shadow
Superman-130%
Orion- 180%
Thor-180%
Flash (Wally)- 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy)- 145%
Martian Manhunter-145%
Black Adam-170%
Silver Surfer- 125%
Supergirl- 110%
Power Girl-105%
Sentry- 160%
Donna Troy- 89%
Gladiator- 178%

chomperx9
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Superman-130%
Orion- 180%
Thor-180%
Flash (Wally)- 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy)- 145%
Martian Manhunter-145%
Black Adam-170%
Silver Surfer- 125%
Supergirl- 110%
Power Girl-105%
Sentry- 160%
Donna Troy- 89%
Gladiator- 178% why you keep doing % ?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Superman-130%
Orion- 180%
Thor-180%
Flash (Wally)- 20%
Captain Marvel (Billy)- 145%
Martian Manhunter-145%
Black Adam-170%
Silver Surfer- 125%
Supergirl- 110%
Power Girl-105%
Sentry- 160%
Donna Troy- 89%
Gladiator- 178%

You'd rank most of these people above Diana in the skill department?

Wild Shadow
and?

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
and?

Just wondering what you're basing it off of.

Wild Shadow
usually her getting handled by supe and his skull punch to the back of her head..

Mindset
You should have said, " your face".

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
usually her getting handled by supe and his skull punch to the back of her head..

So nothing really?

Wild Shadow
the time she got punched by DS... and the time Supes hurt her by freezing her... her deep seeded need to be dominate by being roped up..

Q99
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
usually her getting handled by supe and his skull punch to the back of her head..

Anyone can get suckerpunched. Superman's been suckerpunched... a lot. And Diana has a good share of wins and draws against Clark for that matter.

Sacrifice's ground stint showed her as more skilled than him in HtH, and her recent PG fight showed she's a lot better than Power Girl.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
the time she got punched by DS... and the time Supes hurt her by freezing her... her deep seeded need to be dominate by being roped up..

Well, when I see Supergirl, Powergirl, and (WTF?) Sentry ranked higher than her in the skill department, I tend to not to take the scoring seriously.

Colossus-Big C
hercules is atleast 70%

Text-only Version: Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.