Wonder Woman w/o powers runs the Street Level Gauntlet

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Omega Vision
This is Wonder Woman depowered to Olympic/peak human physical stats and robbed of her ability to fly. How far can she get by just with her fighting skills?

1. Green Arrow (no Bow)

2. Black Canary (no Scream)

3. Wildcat

4. Bane

5. Captain America

6. Lady Shiva

xJLxKing
Clears it. She is an amazon.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Yea, Captain America stops her cold. Wonder Woman has absolutely no showings of hand to hand skills that I've actually seen to justify her beating Captain America as nothing more than an olympic level human. Or even peak human.

If she does not have any rest between the fights she stops at Wildcat.

Sasaraixx
Clears it or Shiva stops her.

Omega Vision
I don't see her beating Captain America myself. Its easy to overlook the fact that though her skill is tremendous a lot of it is also due to her great combat speed (and conversely her combat speed is helped by her great skill).

xJLxKing
She is an Amazon. Nearly peak human in strength, skills, endurance..etc

Omega Vision
Originally posted by xJLxKing
She is an Amazon. Nearly peak human in strength, skills, endurance..etc
Do you think she could beat Batman if she were depowered?

xJLxKing
I really don't know. That's a tough call

Spire
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Do you think she could beat Batman if she were depowered?

Yes.

Batman wins though.

Rage.Of.Olympus
I have not seen absolutely anything from Wonder Woman in terms of skill to suggest she can beat Captain America while shes at this level. Nothing at all. Captain America's physical advantage is significant, and his more skilled than her.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I have not seen absolutely anything from Wonder Woman in terms of skill to suggest she can beat Captain America while shes at this level. Nothing at all. Captain America's physical advantage is significant, and his more skilled than her.

Diana has had several story arcs/situations where she has been depowered, and even in that state she still has borderline enhanced human prowess (still able to deflect/catch arrows, etc), and Batman has commented in JLA that he believes that she may be the best martial artist in the world. Unlike most other comparably super-powered beings (Superman, Thor, Powergirl, and others), Diana has spent a great deal of time training *without* her powers (such as when she was young, and challenges on Themiscyra she would face would involve her not having her gods-given abilities, via Hippolyta's magic, or when she goes on mystical sojourns where her powers don't work), and she doesn't suffer a lick in skills when not in a "super" state.

That said, she would make the edge against this list, but if there were two who by either skill or prowess would block her, it's Shiva and Captain America.

(BTW -- saying that Cap has more experience, and that you haven't seen any showing for WW to indicate that she would, at the very least, be in his skill range, means you haven't kept up with the character for at least the past 25 years...)

Q99
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Do you think she could beat Batman if she were depowered?

She can basically turn her powers off by wanting to (speed and strength at least) and spars with him on even terms in that state, with both getting wins.

galactusischere
No way is she getting past Shiva. Cap stops her.

Batman-Prime
I will just add that every opponent is as strong, fast and durable as she is in her peak human condition.

She should stalemate Captain America (Batman too) and Lady Shiva.

Bentley
Bucky would kill her no expression

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by tideoftime
Diana has had several story arcs/situations where she has been depowered, and even in that state she still has borderline enhanced human prowess (still able to deflect/catch arrows, etc), and Batman has commented in JLA that he believes that she may be the best martial artist in the world. Unlike most other comparably super-powered beings (Superman, Thor, Powergirl, and others), Diana has spent a great deal of time training *without* her powers (such as when she was young, and challenges on Themiscyra she would face would involve her not having her gods-given abilities, via Hippolyta's magic, or when she goes on mystical sojourns where her powers don't work), and she doesn't suffer a lick in skills when not in a "super" state.

That said, she would make the edge against this list, but if there were two who by either skill or prowess would block her, it's Shiva and Captain America.

(BTW -- saying that Cap has more experience, and that you haven't seen any showing for WW to indicate that she would, at the very least, be in his skill range, means you haven't kept up with the character for at least the past 25 years...)

Thank you.

horrorwolf
stopped cold at Captain America.

Peak Human Male >>>> Peak Human Female in both speed and strength.

Juk3n
Originally posted by horrorwolf
stopped cold at Captain America.

Peak Human Male >>>> Peak Human Female in both speed and strength.

correct

male superhuman >>>>>female peak human too

tideoftime
Originally posted by Juk3n
correct

male superhuman >>>>>female peak human too

The only flaw in that reasoning is that the normative ratios in the Real World don't always translate into a comic setting: Steve wouldn't have as much an edge over (a de-powered) Diana as you might think (though he still would have one); she would still edge in skill, however, and that is what makes this challenge interesting...

Q99
Amazon physiology too, normal assumptions even in-comic may not apply (and the top female martial artists never have that much problem against their male counterparts anyway).

JakeTheBank
She stops at Rogers, as his skill level and higher physical attributes give him an edge.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
Diana has had several story arcs/situations where she has been depowered, and even in that state she still has borderline enhanced human prowess (still able to deflect/catch arrows, etc), and Batman has commented in JLA that he believes that she may be the best martial artist in the world. Unlike most other comparably super-powered beings (Superman, Thor, Powergirl, and others), Diana has spent a great deal of time training *without* her powers (such as when she was young, and challenges on Themiscyra she would face would involve her not having her gods-given abilities, via Hippolyta's magic, or when she goes on mystical sojourns where her powers don't work), and she doesn't suffer a lick in skills when not in a "super" state.

That said, she would make the edge against this list, but if there were two who by either skill or prowess would block her, it's Shiva and Captain America.

(BTW -- saying that Cap has more experience, and that you haven't seen any showing for WW to indicate that she would, at the very least, be in his skill range, means you haven't kept up with the character for at least the past 25 years...)

Thor in a depowered state owns scores of Class 30's and keeps up with Captain America. He takes on an army of castle knights, and takes it to a dragon. Thor at a point his mortal, has lost mass and is literally dying fights dozens of metallic zombies, and still takes it to them. Hard. Even as a child Thor has shown incredible skills and agility. He isn't beating Captain America in this state either.

Words. Captain America has so many compliments under his belt I've lost track.

Thor's been in a human form plenty of times and has done extremely well. Once Loki tricked Thor into making a bet thinking that Thor would fail since he would be mortal. He was sent to a Viking village, working as a sea man, withering dangerous storms and he fought giant rats, zombies etc. and he did incredibly well.

When did I say she lacked experience?

Wonder Woman's greatest showing recently in comparison to someone who has impressive skill showings under their belt is probably the Black Canary sparring match off the top of my head. The Power Girl win was a decent enough showing, but Power Girl hasn't shown that much skill outside of being trained by Ted.

I've been keeping up with Wonder Woman. Her skills get played up plenty of times, but I haven't seen anything to justify her beating Captain America in this situation. Same goes for Thor. He has plenty of showings, for example when he wrecks the armies of Asgard, and he has been called Asgard's most efficient killer. It truly doesn't mean anything to be honest in a situation like this. The physical inferiority is simply too much, on top of Captain America's own skill advantage.

I never said she isn't in Captain America's skill range.

celeyhyga17
gets to 3

the ninjak
Bucky shoots her and the head!
Realises that it was probably a chick in costume.
And runs away!

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor in a depowered state owns scores of Class 30's and keeps up with Captain America. He takes on an army of castle knights, and takes it to a dragon. Thor at a point his mortal, has lost mass and is literally dying fights dozens of metallic zombies, and still takes it to them. Hard. Even as a child Thor has shown incredible skills and agility. He isn't beating Captain America in this state either.

Words. Captain America has so many compliments under his belt I've lost track.

Thor's been in a human form plenty of times and has done extremely well. Once Loki tricked Thor into making a bet thinking that Thor would fail since he would be mortal. He was sent to a Viking village, working as a sea man, withering dangerous storms and he fought giant rats, zombies etc. and he did incredibly well.

When did I say she lacked experience?

Wonder Woman's greatest showing recently in comparison to someone who has impressive skill showings under their belt is probably the Black Canary sparring match off the top of my head. The Power Girl win was a decent enough showing, but Power Girl hasn't shown that much skill outside of being trained by Ted.

I've been keeping up with Wonder Woman. Her skills get played up plenty of times, but I haven't seen anything to justify her beating Captain America in this situation. Same goes for Thor. He has plenty of showings, for example when he wrecks the armies of Asgard, and he has been called Asgard's most efficient killer. It truly doesn't mean anything to be honest in a situation like this. The physical inferiority is simply too much, on top of Captain America's own skill advantage.

I never said she isn't in Captain America's skill range.

In fairness you are saying that he is more skilled than her and you aren't making it sound like it's close.

Her lack of showings against highly skilled martial artists is a bit deceiving. She is too powerful to be operating on their level normally. You aren't going to see her fighting a Shiva or a Cassandra Cain because it would take some plot device to make that fight even happen. You do, however, have numerous examples of other characters and she herself telling you about her training and expertise. You may not like that the information is provided in this manner, but you cannot deny it.

I also don't really see where your Thor comparisons come into play because she is more skilled than him.

The only advantage Rogers would have against her in this setting would be physical and if the point of the thread is to see how she fairs skill vs skill, I would assume that we would allow her to maintain her Amazon physical traits to make the fight fair. I'm not saying he can't beat her, but he doesn't stop her cold.

If you want to depower her to a level where he has a significant physical advantage over her, then sure she'll lose. That defeats the whole purpose of the thread however.

manx422
Clears it

the ninjak
Wrong Bucky Shoots her in the head.

manx422
she grabs bucky's gun and shoots him in the nuts

the ninjak
Wrong she is depowered.
Bucky shoots her in the head...walks up to her and shoots her in her NUTS!

manx422
Wonder Woman shoots him in the nuts

the ninjak
Wrong she is depowered.
Bucky shoots her in the head...walks up to her and shoots her in her NUTS!

manx422
she grabs bucky's gun and shoots him in the nuts

the ninjak
Suddenly she is DareDevil now?
Bucky throws the shield and while she is busy focusing on either dodging or deflecting it Bucky shoots her in her nuts!

manx422
she grabs bucky's gun and shoots him in the nuts

the ninjak
Originally posted by manx422
she grabs bucky's gun and shoots him in the nuts

How? she has olympic level attributes now. Shield + bullets at the same time = two bullets in both nuts.
Bucky scores a pair of braces. WIN!

manx422
Originally posted by the ninjak
She has olympic level attributes . Two bullets in both nuts. thumb up

the ninjak
Originally posted by manx422
thumb up

Finally the robot agrees!
Thanks for seeing the light Manx!

manx422
Originally posted by the ninjak
She shoots bucky in the nuts thumb up

the ninjak
Originally posted by manx422
thumb up I am lame everybody and Ninjak is the best!

manx422
Originally posted by the ninjak
I am lame everybody and manx422 is the best!

the ninjak
Originally posted by manx422
I dream of taking long walks on the beach with Superman and after an hour of making out whisper in his ear how he STOMPS people, then he Stomps me....hard!

manx422
Originally posted by the ninjak
I dream of taking long walks on the beach with Thor and after an hour of making out whisper in his ear how he STOMPS people, then he Stomps me....hard!

the ninjak
Originally posted by manx422
And then Orion turns up on his stupid looking chair and SOLOS me ......hard!

manx422
Originally posted by the ninjak
And then Thanos turns up and SOLOS me hard!

tideoftime
And another meeting of the Mutual Masturbation Society continues...

the ninjak
Har HAAAA! Couldn't use the chair thang even though Thanos has one! But you wouldn't know that cause you're a DC fanboy and don't read comic books. I WINNNNNNNN! stick out tongue

manx422
TRUCE

Wei Phoenix
Wow.

-Pr-
keep it on topic, guys.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
In fairness you are saying that he is more skilled than her and you aren't making it sound like it's close.

Her lack of showings against highly skilled martial artists is a bit deceiving. She is too powerful to be operating on their level normally. You aren't going to see her fighting a Shiva or a Cassandra Cain because it would take some plot device to make that fight even happen. You do, however, have numerous examples of other characters and she herself telling you about her training and expertise. You may not like that the information is provided in this manner, but you cannot deny it.

I also don't really see where your Thor comparisons come into play because she is more skilled than him.

The only advantage Rogers would have against her in this setting would be physical and if the point of the thread is to see how she fairs skill vs skill, I would assume that we would allow her to maintain her Amazon physical traits to make the fight fair. I'm not saying he can't beat her, but he doesn't stop her cold.

If you want to depower her to a level where he has a significant physical advantage over her, then sure she'll lose. That defeats the whole purpose of the thread however.

laughing out loud

and no, i'm not laughing at you. just at something you said that amused me.

Konton
Pretty sure Diana's 1,000 years of battle experience trump Caps =/

And a blind Diana was solo-ing the JLA.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1433/ww212blindvsjla19qx.th.jpghttp://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9693/ww212blindvsjla25js.th.jpghttp://img24.imageshack.us/img24/2695/ww212blindvsjla30pe.th.jpghttp://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5634/ww212blindvsjla40wv.th.jpghttp://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2968/ww212blindvsjla63ll.th.jpghttp://img236.imageshack.us/img236/3853/ww212blindvsjla76tq.th.jpg

As for Shiva? Diana was TRAINING Shiva.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/415/wwtrain4fd.th.jpg

tideoftime
Konton: Oh, I agree with you, in concept; I think, though, that if Diana didn't have her powers, Shiva would have a decent chance at some wins, even if Diana took the majority. Cap is a bit more equal, if more based on physicality (with a depowered WW) than with finesse, specifically.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Konton
As for Shiva? Diana was TRAINING Shiva.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/415/wwtrain4fd.th.jpg

i'm pretty sure that scan wasn't about what you just said. no offence, or anything.

Omega Vision
Originally posted by -Pr-
i'm pretty sure that scan wasn't about what you just said. no offence, or anything.
Yeah training WITH someone is different from actually instructing them.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Omega Vision
Yeah training WITH someone is different from actually instructing them.

And to PR, also: Actually, that is exactly what was happening -- Diana was using captured super-criminals as "dummies" to spar with (for keeping her own skills sharp), but just as importantly to try to teach them discipline and reflection, in hopes of rehabilitating them. Didn't really work, of course, but that's the sort of thing she'd do, so the scene actually made a lot of sense...

Q99
I like that Croc. You rarely get to see the skilled wrestle croc in modern comics (he started out kinda like Bane).

753
Originally posted by tideoftime
And to PR, also: Actually, that is exactly what was happening -- Diana was using captured super-criminals as "dummies" to spar with (for keeping her own skills sharp), but just as importantly to try to teach them discipline and reflection, in hopes of rehabilitating them. Didn't really work, of course, but that's the sort of thing she'd do, so the scene actually made a lot of sense...

That may be, but what the scene shows is that they were giving her advice on how to fight in exchange for time reduction and privilleges. I did not read that whole comic, but clearly in those panels, if anyone was schooling the other, it was shiva teaching ww how to use the lasso mid-battle to get her opponents to cough up moves.

tideoftime
Originally posted by 753
That may be, but what the scene shows is that they were giving her advice on how to fight in exchange for time reduction and privilleges. I did not read that whole comic, but clearly in those panels, if anyone was schooling the other, it was shiva teaching ww how to use the lasso mid-battle to get her opponents to cough up moves.

The poster should have included the following pages, where it's quite clear who's doing the schooling (Diana showed well against them all, and was clearly the most skilled...). Now, of course, every character has *some* aspect of skill, or combat insight, that may not be had by another, and Diana was looking for such insight. But they were definitely the ones who got the better end of the deal in that story.

-Pr-
Originally posted by tideoftime
And to PR, also: Actually, that is exactly what was happening -- Diana was using captured super-criminals as "dummies" to spar with (for keeping her own skills sharp), but just as importantly to try to teach them discipline and reflection, in hopes of rehabilitating them. Didn't really work, of course, but that's the sort of thing she'd do, so the scene actually made a lot of sense...

i would have replied, but:

Originally posted by 753
That may be, but what the scene shows is that they were giving her advice on how to fight in exchange for time reduction and privilleges. I did not read that whole comic, but clearly in those panels, if anyone was schooling the other, it was shiva teaching ww how to use the lasso mid-battle to get her opponents to cough up moves.

tideoftime
Originally posted by -Pr-
i would have replied, but:

But did you check *my* response to his statement...? smile

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
In fairness you are saying that he is more skilled than her and you aren't making it sound like it's close.

He is more skilled than her. I'm sorry?

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Her lack of showings against highly skilled martial artists is a bit deceiving. She is too powerful to be operating on their level normally. You aren't going to see her fighting a Shiva or a Cassandra Cain because it would take some plot device to make that fight even happen. You do, however, have numerous examples of other characters and she herself telling you about her training and expertise. You may not like that the information is provided in this manner, but you cannot deny it.

I know it isn't truly fair, because you aren't going to see beings as this powerful fight down on those levels regularly, but that's how we judge a person's hand to hand abilities most of the time. How they fair against other high end skilled opponents. It's pretty clear shes at the top of the food chain in her tier in terms of hand to hand skills, but few are actually skilled in her tier. That is even specifically pointed out in her recent issue. Most of these super strong characters, rely on their brute strength alone so once she kicks it up a notch, it's pretty damn easy to outmaneuver a great deal of them.

Words. They are what give me the benefit of the doubt about her in the first place, but at the end of the day, they are simply words. Thor has plenty of times when his expertise as at the art of war, is praised. These claims and praises are what by default put her on such a high pedestal from the get go, but more is needed before I could imagine she'd be beating Captain America himself in this situation. Thor for example was fairing just as well if not better in a depowered form against the Zodiac soldiers as a result of his hand to hand skills. It's one of his best showings, but that showing alone doesn't mean I'd think Thor is beating Captain America even though that's as a direct a comparison as we are likely to get. It might suggest Thor's on Captain America's level but that's about it. And I love Thor.

I'm not.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I also don't really see where your Thor comparisons come into play because she is more skilled than him.

Prove to me shes more skilled than Thor.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
The only advantage Rogers would have against her in this setting would be physical and if the point of the thread is to see how she fairs skill vs skill, I would assume that we would allow her to maintain her Amazon physical traits to make the fight fair. I'm not saying he can't beat her, but he doesn't stop her cold.

If you read the opening post it said she gets a physic between olympic level and peak human level. She doesn't keep her Amazon traits here.

He pretty much does.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
If you want to depower her to a level where he has a significant physical advantage over her, then sure she'll lose. That defeats the whole purpose of the thread however.

I'm just going by the level the thread starter gave her.

753
Originally posted by tideoftime
The poster should have included the following pages, where it's quite clear who's doing the schooling (Diana showed well against them all, and was clearly the most skilled...). Now, of course, every character has *some* aspect of skill, or combat insight, that may not be had by another, and Diana was looking for such insight. But they were definitely the ones who got the better end of the deal in that story.

She may be more skilled but did she teach them fighting moves? Or was she trying to teach them to become better people?

Is she a better h2h fighter and martial artist than Shiva? Without her powers I mean?

tideoftime
Originally posted by 753
She may be more skilled but did she teach them fighting moves? Or was she trying to teach them to become better people?

Is she a better h2h fighter and martial artist than Shiva? Without her powers I mean?

I would say so, yes. Not in an uber-way, but essentially, yes. People around here often refer to the old Marvel Class system for strength -- in the old DC ranking system, she was a 12/13 in combat/weapon skill, putting her above Batman, Green Arrow, and several other high-enders in the skill department (BM rated a 10; GA a 12 for bow-use). Not saying that as being handed down with the Ten Commandments, or anything like that, but it should give people a numeric reference to equate things with. (It's so funnny, to me, that some people have such a time understanding that WW is one of *the* best combat fighters in DC; I mean, I'd sooner lay off her being nearly as strong as Superman, in favor of her combat skills; DC has been solid on that for 25 years now, even when they vacillated on her strength/physical power...)

EDIT: Oh, and in reference to your one question: She was trying to *both* rehabilitate them as people, *and* was showing them moves/ways of thinking about combat. The text stated this was something she had been doing on and off for some time -- off panel, obviously... In wordbox/thought bubble, she indicated something to the effect that they weren't really showing *her* anything she didn't already know, but was hoping the interaction, over time, would help them better understand themselves.

753
Originally posted by tideoftime
I would say so, yes. Not in an uber-way, but essentially, yes. People around here often refer to the old Marvel Class system for strength -- in the old DC ranking system, she was a 12/13 in combat/weapon skill, putting her above Batman, Green Arrow, and several other high-enders in the skill department (BM rated a 10; GA a 12 for bow-use). Not saying that as being handed down with the Ten Commandments, or anything like that, but it should give people a numeric reference to equate things with. (It's so funnny, to me, that some people have such a time understanding that WW is one of *the* best combat fighters in DC; I mean, I'd sooner lay off her being nearly as strong as Superman, in favor of her combat skills; DC has been solid on that for 25 years now, even when they vacillated on her strength/physical power...)

EDIT: Oh, and in reference to your one question: She was trying to *both* rehabilitate them as people, *and* was showing them moves/ways of thinking about combat. The text stated this was something she had been doing on and off for some time -- off panel, obviously... In wordbox/thought bubble, she indicated something to the effect that they weren't really showing *her* anything she didn't already know, but was hoping the interaction, over time, would help them better understand themselves.

Cool then.

-Pr-
Originally posted by tideoftime
But did you check *my* response to his statement...? smile

do you have the other pages? or an issue number?

Q99
I'd say Wonder Woman and Shiva are roughly on the same level.

Wild Shadow
she stops at 3 and 4 for sure she will be tired and or injured from her 1st couple of fights to put up to much of a fight.. cool

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Prove to me shes more skilled than Thor.


Prove to me she isn't. Do you have any scans that describe Thor being anywhere as skilled as Diana? Stated he's mastered just about all forms of combat. Saying that he's the best melee fighter in the world, etc. etc. Any of those said by someone with skill as high as Batman?

As to the rest of your post, Tide has said most of what I would say in response to you. I'm sorry that repeated statements in the comics aren't enough for you. I can't do anything about that.

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by -Pr-

laughing out loud

and no, i'm not laughing at you. just at something you said that amused me.


What was it? smile

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Prove to me she isn't. Do you have any scans that describe Thor being anywhere as skilled as Diana? Stated he's mastered just about all forms of combat. Saying that he's the best melee fighter in the world, etc. etc. Any of those said by someone with skill as high as Batman?

As to the rest of your post, Tide has said most of what I would say in response to you. I'm sorry that repeated statements in the comics aren't enough for you. I can't do anything about that.

erm

It doesn't work that way. You claimed that she is more skilled than Thor and I simply asked you to support the statement. The burden of proof falls on you. I don't have to provd anything as I never claimed anything. I definitely could try and would most likely do an amazing job if I had the conviction, but it's 6:30 am in the morning, and I'm too lazy.

If you simply want thrown out statements, then Thor's been stated by Captain America to be a master combatant that's been trained in the arts of war for hundreds of years. Thor's been called Asgard's most efficient killer, warrior, etc.

Tide? She never replied to my post.

I'm just saying that claims and word of mouth can only take you so far. I need more conclusive evidence before I consider her beating Steve Rogers himself in this situation.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
What was it? smile

the fourth line.

also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva?

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
erm

It doesn't work that way. You claimed that she is more skilled than Thor and I simply asked you to support the statement. The burden of proof falls on you. I don't have to provd anything as I never claimed anything. I definitely could try and would most likely do an amazing job if I had the conviction, but it's 6:30 am in the morning, and I'm too lazy.

If you simply want thrown out statements, then Thor's been stated by Captain America to be a master combatant that's been trained in the arts of war for hundreds of years. Thor's been called Asgard's most efficient killer, warrior, etc.

Tide? She never replied to my post.

I'm just saying that claims and word of mouth can only take you so far. I need more conclusive evidence before I consider her beating Steve Rogers himself in this situation.

Nice try, but no. You are claiming that Thor is as skilled as Wonder Woman. You started this whole conversation by using analogies with Thor. I and others have already explained why Diana belongs in the same breath with Rogers and Shiva. You yourself have already admitted that Thor is not as skilled as Captain America. So, the burden is on you my friend. The quotes you listed from Captain America do not put Thor on the same skill level as Diana.

No, but her(his?) points do speak to your claims that there is not enough evidence to put Diana on equal footing or better with Captain America. And like you, I'm too lazy to rehash it all for you.

And I'm saying that repeated statements in addition to the sparring and what not that we've seen from Diana is enough for me. This is a comic. There's no reason to repeatedly make statements like this if they are not to be taken seriously. If what you need is a story where Diana is depowered and somehow has to end up fighting and defeating Cassandra Cain, then I think you'll be waiting a long time.

As for this gauntlet, I believe skill-wise she could clear it. That's not to say Rogers or Shiva could not take her down and I believe Shiva would be most likely the one to prevent her from clearing it. Now, according to the OP's stipulations that Diana is to be depowered to a level that puts her significantly below Captain America, then yes he probably stops her too.

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by -Pr-
the fourth line.

also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva?

It was a bit of a run-on wasn't it laughing

I'm not sure what issue that is from sadly.

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by -Pr-
also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva?

Found it. JLA: Welcome to the Working Week. I don't see anything after that sparring session though. WW just asks the 3 of them to charge her blind stance and the story goes elsewhere. It just shows that she was using the 3 of them for practice to hone her skills. Unless I missed something, she was not training Shiva.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Nice try, but no. You are claiming that Thor is as skilled as Wonder Woman. You started this whole conversation by using analogies with Thor.

erm

I think you need to go re-read our discussion.

You said that she is more skilled than Thor here:
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I also don't really see where your Thor comparisons come into play because she is more skilled than him.

I asked you to prove to me she is more skilled than Thor here:
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Prove to me shes more skilled than Thor.

And then you said:
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Prove to me she isn't.

Where did I make any kind of claim? I simply asked you to prove she is more skilled, and as you are the one who said what you said, the burden falls to you to prove your claim.

Thor's ten times stronger than Wonder Woman. I don't have to prove to you he is, you have to prove to me he isn't. eek!

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I and others have already explained why Diana belongs in the same breath with Rogers and Shiva. You yourself have already admitted that Thor is not as skilled as Captain America. So, the burden is on you my friend. The quotes you listed from Captain America do not put Thor on the same skill level as Diana.

Explained to me? You've told me that this character said so and so about Diana. She said so and so about herself. Claims can only take you so far. Look at Mr. X. If we go by his claims you'd think he'd wreck Captain America and Wolverine at the same time. Clearly not the case.

I admitted Thor is not as skilled as Captain America, because he isn't. And newsflash, neither is Diana. It's one thing being in the same tier, or on the same level. It's another being equal to a person. Do I think Thor and Diana are in the upper echelon of skills? Of course. They're arguably the most skilled beings in their tier along with Hercules and Orion. This doesn't automatically transfer over to the kind of level of skill needed to be in the upper echelon of street level characters.

laughing out loud Sorry, but the argument "since the complement Captain America gave Thor isn't as good as the compliment Batman gave Diana, Diana is more skilled" is honestly, just hilarious.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
No, but her(his?) points do speak to your claims that there is not enough evidence to put Diana on equal footing or better with Captain America. And like you, I'm too lazy to rehash it all for you.

Okay.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And I'm saying that repeated statements in addition to the sparring and what not that we've seen from Diana is enough for me. This is a comic. There's no reason to repeatedly make statements like this if they are not to be taken seriously. If what you need is a story where Diana is depowered and somehow has to end up fighting and defeating Cassandra Cain, then I think you'll be waiting a long time.

It's because statements only mean so much. In the comic world, how skilled a character is, is best built on his record against opponents. It's not really fair to either Diana or Thor, because like you said, them fighting someone like Cassandra or Shiva while depowered is not very likely to happen, but that's too bad.

Off the top of my head, Kazar is a decent example. Most people think his a poor man's Tarzan, because you don't see him appear every issue or so and people exclaim in amazement how skilled he is, but going by his track record, he is one of the most skilled street level characters in all of Marvel. Dude one shotted Daredevil in their first encounter if I recall correctly. Daredevil is on the level of beings such as Batman.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
As for this gauntlet, I believe skill-wise she could clear it. That's not to say Rogers or Shiva could not take her down and I believe Shiva would be most likely the one to prevent her from clearing it. Now, according to the OP's stipulations that Diana is to be depowered to a level that puts her significantly below Captain America, then yes he probably stops her too.

Even if you put her on the same exact physical level as Rogers he still stops her. His more skilled, plus she just fought Green Arrow, Black Canary, and Wildcat previously. Diana's good but not that good.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Found it. JLA: Welcome to the Working Week. I don't see anything after that sparring session though. WW just asks the 3 of them to charge her blind stance and the story goes elsewhere. It just shows that she was using the 3 of them for practice to hone her skills. Unless I missed something, she was not training Shiva.

Oh, hold on a second -- just realized where there may be some miscommunication/term usage going on here: I won't speak for anyone else, but *I* am not saying WW was "training" Shiva, in the sense of "master-student"/"Old-Asian man- meets- Ralph Macchio", or anything like that; the first part of all of this was her using them as practice for keeping her skills sharp. I hope nobody is thinking WW was a "mentor", or anything like that, contextually, in that specific sense. (I think if we all were speaking face-to-face, my tone/inflection would be clearer...)

EDIT: Oh, and also -- if she is running a consecutive gauntlet, where people are just standing in line, and this isn't just a consecutive list, then no, she isn't going to clear it without her powers -- credibly, even Rogers would have trouble clearing this list if it were consecutive, or a puppy-pile, using Forum Rules/Setting. Sorry, again, if I have been misunderstanding/ misinterpreting how others are intending this list. If the OP will clarify it, I will likely change my answer...

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by tideoftime
Oh, hold on a second -- just realized where there may be some miscommunication/term usage going on here: I won't speak for anyone else, but *I* am not saying WW was "training" Shiva, in the sense of "master-student"/"Old-Asian man- meets- Ralph Macchio", or anything like that; the first part of all of this was her using them as practice for keeping her skills sharp. I hope nobody is thinking WW was a "mentor", or anything like that, contextually, in that specific sense. (I think if we all were speaking face-to-face, my tone/inflection would be clearer...)

No, no. it was Konton who made that statement.

tideoftime
Rage of Olympus: The problem with your take on the statements/situations in the comics, and my/others further elaborating on them, is that you're missing a very important context with Diana that doesn't readily apply to beings like Thor, Orion, and similar: she *has* spent a great deal of time fighting/training *without* her powers, especially when she was growing up on the island, where Hippolyta used her magic to keep Diana's powers surpressed for much of her training (as was stated in several issues of WW over the years). She has much more experience fighting without her powers than most other heavy-hitters, which is why she is one of the most skilled fighters in DC; she can fight as an (almost) ordinary mortal, *and* as an uber-powerful flying brick. To put it another way: she is essentially a Captain America who has been given near-kryptonian physical power. Now, this in no way denegrates Cap, at all; I had stated that if anyone was going to block Diana in this, it would be Steve. And when it comes to having the "heart of a fighter", or being a "true hero", he certainly matches, and possibly exceeds her, in certain contexts. But that doesn't mean she isn't as skilled as he is, because she certainly is.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
Rage of Olympus: The problem with your take on the statements/situations in the comics, and my/others further elaborating on them, is that you're missing a very important context with Diana that doesn't readily apply to beings like Thor, Orion, and similar: she *has* spent a great deal of time fighting/training *without* her powers, especially when she was growing up on the island, where Hippolyta used her magic to keep Diana's powers surpressed for much of her training (as was stated in several issues of WW over the years). She has much more experience fighting without her powers than most other heavy-hitters, which is why she is one of the most skilled fighters in DC; she can fight as an (almost) ordinary mortal, *and* as an uber-powerful flying brick. To put it another way: she is essentially a Captain America who has been given near-kryptonian physical power. Now, this in no way denegrates Cap, at all; I had stated that if anyone was going to block Diana in this, it would be Steve. And when it comes to having the "heart of a fighter", or being a "true hero", he certainly matches, and possibly exceeds her, in certain contexts. But that doesn't mean she isn't as skilled as he is, because she certainly is.

And like I said in this thread previously, Thor like Wonder Woman has spent a great deal of time fighting as a mortal as well. And all of his showings are on panel (I'm pretty sure they did not reshow all if not most of Diana's past training in a depowered state.). To quote myself:

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Thor in a depowered state owns scores of Class 30's and keeps up with Captain America to the point he was arguably outpacing Rogers. He takes on an army of castle knights, and takes it to a dragon. Thor at a point his mortal, has lost mass and is literally dying fights dozens of metallic zombies, and still takes it to them. Hard. Even as a child Thor has shown incredible skills and agility. He isn't beating Captain America in this state either.

Thor's been in a human form plenty of times and has done extremely well. Once Loki tricked Thor into making a bet thinking that Thor would fail since he would be mortal. He was sent to a Viking village, working as a sea man, withering dangerous storms and he fought giant rats, zombies etc. and he did incredibly well.

So as you see, Diana is not the only one who has a history of doing extremely well with her skills even in a depowered state.

Disagreed. Could Diana be in Rogers tier? Sure. As skilled? Nah.

Sasaraixx
No Rage, I think you need to go back and re-read our conversations. You began by bringing up Thor (as you always do). The only reason you would mention Thor, I assume, is because you believe him to be of a skill level equal to Diana (which you also indicated in another thread). If you were not asserting this, then it makes absolutely no sense for you to reference Thor at all. And in your most recent post, you've once again claimed them equal in skill. So far the second time, no the burden of proof is not on me as I am not the one who dragged Thor into this discussion to begin with. You asserted a claim by drawing a parallel with Thor - one that I disagreed with. And it does sound nice for you to say "prove it" when you are equally incapable of proving the contrary. And I think that the info that has already been provided in this thread honestly is enough to do that alone.

And please don't try to dumb down what I said, when you are the one who attempted and failed to offer evidence. Captain America saying Thor is a great warrior or the best warrior in Asgard is nothing at all like Batman saying that Wonder Woman is the best melee fighter in the world (a direct comment on skill) or DC claiming that she is the greatest warrior in the DCU. If you think it's so silly, then you shouldn't have commented. Unfortunately, you did, however, and I merely pointed out that the comments you listed were not as impressive. Sorry kiddo.

And again, there really isn't much I can say to you if the comments made by other characters in addition to her origins and statements made by DC all coupled with the feats of skill that we have seen are not enough to satisfy you. I don't particularly care smile

Is no rest between rounds the default (as it was not stated in the OP)? If so, I will change my answer as well.

the ninjak
Bucky throws his shield and shoots her at the same time.
Dead Diana stops at 5. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And like I said in this thread previously, Thor like Wonder Woman has spent a great deal of time fighting as a mortal as well. And all of his showings are on panel (I'm pretty sure they did not reshow all if not most of Diana's past training in a depowered state.). To quote myself:



So as you see, Diana is not the only one who has a history of doing extremely well with her skills even in a depowered state.

Disagreed. Could Diana be in Rogers tier? Sure. As skilled? Nah.

And I don't see how doing well in a depowered state equates that he is top tier when it comes to skill. If Superman were to lose his powers, I am very confident that he would be able to fight very competently as a mortal. That doesn't mean he is as skilled as Wonder Woman is.

We know that WW has her Amazon training, the gifts of Athena, continues to spar regularly, constantly seeks to improve her skills and is skilled in different arts and weapons. That is what is important.

Question for Tide, has the time Diana spent training under I-Ching been restored?

tideoftime
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
And like I said in this thread previously, Thor like Wonder Woman has spent a great deal of time fighting as a mortal as well. And all of his showings are on panel (I'm pretty sure they did not reshow all if not most of Diana's past training in a depowered state.). To quote myself:



So as you see, Diana is not the only one who has a history of doing extremely well with her skills even in a depowered state.

Disagreed. Could Diana be in Rogers tier? Sure. As skilled? Nah.

I am honestly not sure if you are being legit here, or purposely being obtuse (not about your Thor reference -- I am fully aware of his history), but things don't seem to be registering with you, so I am going to take a bow from this thread. I've posted what I feel I have to say/is conveyed in the comics (and btw -- yes, in multiple different flashbacks, Diana's depowered training has been covered. In whole issues/extended story-arcs with her before she left the island? No. But it was made very clear. And the comparison to Thor is a side-step in this: Thor is a high-end fighter, no question, but most reasonable people agree that WW has greater finesse/refined skill than he does. Not in any uber-way, but discernably so. And that is certainly sufficient to make her a match, *skill-wise* for Cap. In a depowered state, with him likely having a physical edge on her, are her odds good? No. Of course not. But if she still has her natural amazonian edge in physical prowess, then the difference may not be as great as it seems. But like I said, Steve is certainly the go-to in this situation, and if the situation arose in a comic, and he were to win, I wouldn't cry foul, by any means.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And I don't see how doing well in a depowered state equates that he is top tier when it comes to skill. If Superman were to lose his powers, I am very confident that he would be able to fight very competently as a mortal. That doesn't mean he is as skilled as Wonder Woman is.

We know that WW has her Amazon training, the gifts of Athena, continues to spar regularly, constantly seeks to improve her skills and is skilled in different arts and weapons. That is what is important.

Question for Tide, has the time Diana spent training under I-Ching been restored?

Only in a passing reference during the "year-off" story-arc a few years ago; when she was back as Diana Prince, working at the DMA, there was a monitor behind her showing some footage of her with I-Ching, and Tresser making reference to it. I suppose that is meant to mean that it is a part of the New Earth reality, as well, though obviously with (unspecified) tweeks, temporally speaking, as the late Silver Age/Early Bronze Age stories couldn't conceptually take place on New Earth. But, yeah, it would seem so, more or less...

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by tideoftime
Only in a passing reference during the "year-off" story-arc a few years ago; when she was back as Diana Prince, working at the DMA, there was a monitor behind her showing some footage of her with I-Ching, and Tresser making reference to it. I suppose that is meant to mean that it is a part of the New Earth reality, as well, though obviously with (unspecified) tweeks, temporally speaking, as the late Silver Age/Early Bronze Age stories couldn't conceptually take place on New Earth. But, yeah, it would seem so, more or less...

Ah, thank you for that. I vaguely remembered that as well, but I couldn't be sure. Honestly, I was a bit confused.

I appreciate the clarification.

Philosophía
Originally posted by Q99
I'd say Wonder Woman and Shiva are roughly on the same level. I'd say you have no ideea what you're talking about.Originally posted by -Pr-
the fourth line.

also, would anyone please give me that issue number with shiva? JLA: Welcome to working week.

Original Smurph
I don't understand what's provoked the Wonder Woman skill wank as of late.

Yes, she has an impressive resume, but I haven't seen much in the way of actual feats that assures me that she would beat Black Canary or Wildcat, much less Steve Rogers.

Mshinu
Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't understand what's provoked the Wonder Woman skill wank as of late.

Spring is coming soon. Wank for desireables like Wondy and Orion is bound to increase as blood starts boiling.

Q99
Originally posted by Original Smurph
I don't understand what's provoked the Wonder Woman skill wank as of late.

Yes, she has an impressive resume, but I haven't seen much in the way of actual feats that assures me that she would beat Black Canary or Wildcat, much less Steve Rogers.

She has actually fought with Black Canary and Batman in martial arts without using her powers and both are of the opinion that Diana's at least as good if not better than they are, so there's that.

Wild Shadow
possibly b/c she might still be slightly enhanced not b/c she possess more Combat knowledge then them. if anything i would place her around the DS physical stat lvls and skill.

Q99
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
possibly b/c she might still be slightly enhanced not b/c she possess more Combat knowledge then them.

But she probably does possess more combat knowledge than them, and she doesn't win sparring matches against them because she's stronger or anything smile Both go on about her skill.

Omega Vision
I think Diana is like Thor in the sense that even stripped of her powers her basic physiology is greater than that of any human. "Depowered" Thor was able to dead-lift half a ton was he not? Amazons always seem like that, stronger and faster than normal humans (and more resilient).

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by Q99
But she probably does possess more combat knowledge than them, and she doesn't win sparring matches against them because she's stronger or anything smile Both go on about her skill.

i watch you to think very hard and use logic building techniques...

she is an amazon correct?

what would she be trained in with h2h and weapons training?

now think very hard and tell me how that would apply and translate to modern warfare and combat training for modern military let alone guys that have trained all across the world in various MA?

do you really think she possess more effective skill and knowledge then guys like batman? roll eyes (sarcastic)

tideoftime
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i watch you to think very hard and use logic building techniques...

she is an amazon correct?

what would she be trained in with h2h and weapons training?

now think very hard and tell me how that would apply and translate to modern warfare and combat training for modern military let alone guys that have trained all across the world in various MA?

do you really think she possess more effective skill and knowledge then guys like batman? roll eyes (sarcastic)

(Jumping back in due to detecting where your flaw in perception is)

You are aware that the Amazons of Themiscyra are not all Greek; many of them are reincarnations of various women/cultures from around the world (which is why a number of them have various ethnic appearances). Also, almost all of them have cross-trained with their sister tribe, the Bana Mighdall, who have been in contact with the broader world, cultivating not only the weapons and war-skills of various peoples on earth for the past 3,000 years, but also the use of advanced technology from other cultures/worlds?

I mean, you *did* know that, right? You were aware that one of the many reasons why outside interests (including the US Government in the DC Universe) want to... "investigate"... Themiscyra was not only because of the mystical power located there, but also because of the advanced technology and applied war-knowledge the Amazons possess?

It's only been an ongoing storyline for WW for about 20 years now in the comics...

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by tideoftime
(Jumping back in due to detecting where your flaw in perception is)

You are aware that the Amazons of Themiscyra are not all Greek; many of them are reincarnations of various women/cultures from around the world (which is why a number of them have various ethnic appearances). Also, almost all of them have cross-trained with their sister tribe, the Bana Mighdall, who have been in contact with the broader world, cultivating not only the weapons and war-skills of various peoples on earth for the past 3,000 years, but also the use of advanced technology from other cultures/worlds?

I mean, you *did* know that, right? You were aware that one of the many reasons why outside interests (including the US Government in the DC Universe) want to... "investigate"... Themiscyra was not only because of the mystical power located there, but also because of the advanced technology and applied war-knowledge the Amazons possess?

It's only been an ongoing storyline for WW for about 20 years now in the comics...

Damn, this dude brings the word when it comes to WW lol thumb up

Wild Shadow
i am ware of that. but that doesnt translate to MA skills and knowledge equal to bats.. tell me what art forms has she mastered by name?

tideoftime
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Damn, this dude brings the word when it comes to WW lol thumb up

And do you know what the truly f#cked up thing is? Unlike what Quan likes to claim -- I AM NOT EVEN A WW FANBOI!

I just, like, y'know...

...PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COMICS...

*******

Forgive my sarcasm. It's just that the anti-WW sentiment around here is just bizarre. I rarely encounter it in other forums like I do here. It's what piqued my curiousity a few months ago when I linked here randomly and there was a strew of anti-WW (and disrepect of Thor) going on. I thought it was funny. Now, I think it's really kinda' sad...

tideoftime
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
i am ware of that. but that doesnt translate to MA skills and knowledge equal to bats.. tell what art forms has she mastered by name?

Dude... seriously...

Your just embarrassing yourself now...

She has greater MA combat-skill than Bruce (that he is relatively close to her skill level is a testament to how good *he* actually is, being a "mere mortal", as he has joked with her before) and she has the insight and skill of the goddesses Artemis and Athena, two of the war/combat goddesses of the Greek Pantheon.

It's called reading.

Try it.

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by tideoftime
Dude... seriously...

Your just embarrassing yourself now...

She has greater MA combat-skill than Bruce (that he is relatively close to her skill level is a testament to how good *he* actually is, being a "mere mortal", as he has joked with her before) and she has the insight and skill of the goddesses Artemis and Athena, two of the war/combat goddesses of the Greek Pantheon.

It's called reading.

Try it.

okay now ur just being rude and insulting.

my question again went unanswered. i know she is a great fighter but she aside from that she hasnt shown the same lvl of MA knowledge as someone like bruce or shiva regardless of she can beat them. i already said why she would win against them even when depowered. the fact that you tried to substantiate her abilities by using her godly attributes proves my point.

JakeTheBank
Originally posted by tideoftime
And do you know what the truly f#cked up thing is? Unlike what Quan likes to claim -- I AM NOT EVEN A WW FANBOI!

I just, like, y'know...

...PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COMICS...

*******

Forgive my sarcasm. It's just that the anti-WW sentiment around here is just bizarre. I rarely encounter it in other forums like I do here. It's what piqued my curiousity a few months ago when I linked here randomly and there was a strew of anti-WW (and disrepect of Thor) going on. I thought it was funny. Now, I think it's really kinda' sad...

Yeah, several other posters (including myself) have mentioned it before in threads here. WW either gets lowballed at every turn and corner, her gear is either ignored or completely underrated, and her feats and showings are usually dismissed by people debating against her. The counter argument I usually see is that "people overrated Diana", but judging from the responses in a lot of these Vs. threads, for the resounding majority, the people voting for Diana and explaining their reasoning are either at least knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision or, y'know, read her comics.

Thor gets a slightly better rap, but the fact that some posters blatantly ignore his upper or high end showings while at the same time completely blowing his low ones out of the water or warping them to suit their purposes is pretty messed up. His revamped respect thread should dispel the erroneous belief that Thor can't deal with super speedsters and without Mjolnir he's helpless, but people just choose to ignore multiple on panel instances.

It's sad, but we endure. laughing

darthgoober
Question, does WW end up with standard "peak human" stats or Captain America level "peak human" stats? There is a difference after all...

tideoftime
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
okay now ur just being rude and insulting.

my question again went unanswered. i know she is a great fighter but she aside from that she hasnt shown the same lvl of MA knowledge as someone like bruce or shiva regardless of she can beat them. i already said why she would win against them even when depowered. the fact that you tried to substantiate her abilities by using her godly attributes proves my point.

And you started with the sarcasm earlier up, with another post, so don't get high and mighty, all of a sudden.

#1: As far as the Artemis/Athena reference, that doesn't have any bearing on her direct physical power, but shows that she was literally born/created with the seed of combat prowess within her; her training and experiences since have simply allowed that to bloom. If that came across as somehow having to do with any physical endowment, then I do apologize for any confusion on that part my phrasing may have created.

#2: I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that we are simply having a cross-connection in terms of definitions/meanings: Diana has greater *skill* in the martial arts, but no doubt Bruce has greater *knowledge* of martial cultures and linguistic terms from around the world. If by "martial knowledge", that is what you meant, then I also apologize for misunderstanding you on that point, and you would be correct to say that.

darthgoober
Damn bottem of the page...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Question, does WW end up with standard "peak human" stats or Captain America level "peak human" stats? There is a difference after all...

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by darthgoober
Question, does WW end up with standard "peak human" stats or Captain America level "peak human" stats? There is a difference after all...



to answer the question yes. i would say cap or DS

darthgoober
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
to answer the question yes.
Mine wasn't a yes or no question...

tideoftime
Originally posted by darthgoober
Question, does WW end up with standard "peak human" stats or Captain America level "peak human" stats? There is a difference after all...

Now, THAT is a smart question!

Before, back in the 90's, Diana in her "depowered" form would still have an edge of enhanced human qualities about her (being able to catch/deflect arrows in flight with relative ease, demonstrate strength that would not normally exist in the real world for a woman of her height and build, etc., just as all the other "normal" amazons displayed), so in that respect she would be somewhat close to Cap, relatively speaking (he obviously would still have the edge in strength, of course). But *nowadays*, when she reverts to her mortal guise (bestowed to her by Circe as an ironic "gift"wink, she is indicated as having peak human ability (for a female, obviously), but has not demonstrated the edge she used to in previous versions of her "mortal self". Part of that has alot to do with Simone not writing her as having been in her Diana Prince identity for, like, 20 issues now (which is why Simone, as a writer, leaves me luke-warm; she does good sometimes, but then drops the ball weirdly in others...). So, yeah... that's a good question. But I had assumed in my responses that Steve would have the edge in strength on her, but as this was a thread more about martial prowess, and not necessarily physical power, I left it as a marginal win for her, or a block for her via his at least matching her, if not outright winning some fights.

darthgoober
Originally posted by tideoftime
Now, THAT is a smart question!

Before, back in the 90's, Diana in her "depowered" form would still have an edge of enhanced human qualities about her (being able to catch/deflect arrows in flight with relative ease, demonstrate strength that would not normally exist in the real world for a woman of her height and build, etc., just as all the other "normal" amazons displayed), so in that respect she would be somewhat close to Cap, relatively speaking (he obviously would still have the edge in strength, of course). But *nowadays*, when she reverts to her mortal guise (bestowed to her by Circe as an ironic "gift"wink, she is indicated as having peak human ability (for a female, obviously), but has not demonstrated the edge she used to in previous versions of her "mortal self". Part of that has alot to do with Simone not writing her as having been in her Diana Prince identity for, like, 20 issues now (which is why Simone, as a writer, leaves me luke-warm; she does good sometimes, but then drops the ball weirdly in others...). So, yeah... that's a good question. But I had assumed in my responses that Steve would have the edge in strength on her, but as this was a thread more about martial prowess, and not necessarily physical power, I left it as a marginal win for her, or a block for her via his at least matching her, if not outright winning some fights.
Yeah but ALL of Cap's stats are at least a little higher than those of other so called "peak humans". You mentioned WW deflecting/catching arrows out of the air and that's undoubtedly impressive, but Cap can react to bullets after they're fired. And I'm not talking about aim dodging, the bullets will already be in the air on a collision course for their target and Cap will do something to keep them from hitting.

tideoftime
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah but ALL of Cap's stats are at least a little higher than those of other so called "peak humans". You mentioned WW deflecting/catching arrows out of the air and that's undoubtedly impressive, but Cap can react to bullets after they're fired. And I'm not talking about aim dodging, the bullets will already be in the air on a collision course for their target and Cap will do something to keep them from hitting.

And Diana has deflected bullets while depowered - a comparable feat. I was just citing examples as a reference. She also has demonstrated enhanced strength/speed while in a depowered state (though much like Steve, not uber-so). Steve would no doubt have a strength edge, but the speed factor is comparable to each other. Now, again, it is unclear what her *current* physical status is when she is Diana Prince, but as this was a thread about skill/martial prowess, and not physical power, that seemed a secondary consideration (not irrelevant, but secondary).

Q99
Skill, yes, knowledge, no.

It's also not like she hasn't branched out from her base of Amazon training in the decades since leaving the island. And btw, the Amazons have high tech, and their Bana branch were feared mercenaries for their skill in guns and such, some of the best soldiers in the world.

darthgoober
Originally posted by tideoftime
And Diana has deflected bullets while depowered - a comparable feat. I was just citing examples as a reference. She also has demonstrated enhanced strength/speed while in a depowered state (though much like Steve, not uber-so). Steve would no doubt have a strength edge, but the speed factor is comparable to each other. Now, again, it is unclear what her *current* physical status is when she is Diana Prince, but as this was a thread about skill/martial prowess, and not physical power, that seemed a secondary consideration (not irrelevant, but secondary).
She may very well have Cap level physical feats in her depowered form, that's pretty much what I was checking on.

Also looking back through the thread I've noticed you saying that she's more skilled than he but I couldn't locate why you think that(I probably overlooked it).

Badabing
If I get any more reports from this thread, I will close it and hand out warnings.

Q99
Artemis could carry around a 50lbs pack on the battlefield silently when she was 10.

Rage.Of.Olympus

Rage.Of.Olympus

the ninjak
That was pretty insane showings considering he was presently mortal.
Or did he still have some degree of enhanced strength?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Not as far as I can tell. Balder drained Thor of his power using a specifically created Asgardian machine, so Thor was left mortal.

the ninjak
But just because he is mortal doesn't mean that some of his Strength remains. He ripped think metal chains out of Solid brick wall!

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by the ninjak
But just because he is mortal doesn't mean that some of his Strength remains. He ripped think metal chains out of Solid brick wall!

You mean "some of his strength doesn't remain."?

Well, seeing as how it was specifically stated that he was powerless/mortal etc. multiple times, and even Mjolnir lost it's enchantment, I think it's pretty safe to say he was powerless.

What can I say, don't piss off Thor. stick out tongue

To be fair, he tried ripping off those metal chains from the wall, a couple of times before and failed, so they probably got a bit loose. It wasn't until he saw his friends endanger that he got really mad.

the ninjak
Respect!

Rage.Of.Olympus
durthor

tideoftime
Originally posted by darthgoober
She may very well have Cap level physical feats in her depowered form, that's pretty much what I was checking on.

Also looking back through the thread I've noticed you saying that she's more skilled than he but I couldn't locate why you think that(I probably overlooked it).

Things may have gotten muddled as the conversation drifted; I wasn't trying to say she was more skilled than Rogers, per se, but certainly comparable -- she seems to have the edge over Bruce, is what I was trying to say, in terms of skill (mind you, using those three -- Bruce, Steve, and Diana -- it gets to a certain level of hairsplitting in some situations, to say the least). Don't have time to go back over all the posts right this minute, but if by accident (or conversation drift) that came across that way, I apologize for any misunderstanding. As I said at the beginning, if anybody would block a depowered Diana, it certainly would be Steve; it just wouldn't be as clear as some people are making it sound.

Also, I was trying to use different approachs to comparing things: statements by authoritative characters (such as Black Canary and Batman), situations of her history/childhood (a number of which are over in Respect), instances of her being depowered, and even (as people often refer to the old Marvel Class system) some of the old DC ranking stats (Bruce was rated a 10 for MA combat skill, which equates to being one of the best in the world, while Diana was ranked a 12, which put her at legendary status; for comparison, the Warlords of Okaara were ranked at a 15 (seemingly the best in the universe, at the time) and I believe Karate Kid was either a 14 or 15 -- memory is a little shaky on that last one, but I am pretty certain it was one or the other. Any ranking of 13+ indicated a "skill" level that functioned more like a power, and less like a skill in the conventional sense of the word). Contextually, Bruce and Diana may be a level higher in the New Earth era, but that is purely conjecture on my part -- I am not claiming that as fact, or even a proper "opinion", as such... And by comparison, I'd put Steve at 11-12, so again it's a bit of hairsplitting, but there you go...

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
I am honestly not sure if you are being legit here, or purposely being obtuse (not about your Thor reference -- I am fully aware of his history), but things don't seem to be registering with you, so I am going to take a bow from this thread. I've posted what I feel I have to say/is conveyed in the comics (and btw -- yes, in multiple different flashbacks, Diana's depowered training has been covered. In whole issues/extended story-arcs with her before she left the island? No. But it was made very clear. And the comparison to Thor is a side-step in this: Thor is a high-end fighter, no question, but most reasonable people agree that WW has greater finesse/refined skill than he does. Not in any uber-way, but discernably so. And that is certainly sufficient to make her a match, *skill-wise* for Cap. In a depowered state, with him likely having a physical edge on her, are her odds good? No. Of course not. But if she still has her natural amazonian edge in physical prowess, then the difference may not be as great as it seems. But like I said, Steve is certainly the go-to in this situation, and if the situation arose in a comic, and he were to win, I wouldn't cry foul, by any means.

Legit for the most part.

Okay.

Her being more skilled than Thor is something I could debate against. I won't though, since this discussion is over.

Of course she would win if she had her Amazon powers. Who's questioning that?

tideoftime
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Legit for the most part.

Okay.

Her being more skilled than Thor is something I could debate against. I won't though, since this discussion is over.

Of course she would win if she had her Amazon powers. Who's questioning that?

Not referring to her gods-given powers -- talking about the natural enhanced human prowess she would have as an Amazon of Themiscyra. Most of the more adroit Amazons have demonstrated enhanced strength/agility/stamina on numerous occasions (Phillipus lifted over a ton; Artemis caught/deflected arrows in flight - like Diana; Hippolyta, without her amping from The Source, not only bested Hercules skill-wise, but was able to lift and throw heavy men with one arm, et al). *That's* what I mean when talking about her "natural" Amazonian prowess. I have stated, though, that in her current New Earth setting, it is unclear what her status is when she is in mortal guise -- she may "only" be at peak human female in terms of physical ability, as Circe's enchantment may make her more "mortal-seeming" than previous depowered instances were. And as also already stated, that certainly would give Steve a physical advantage, no question. *But* the point of this thread was about martial prowess, not physical power, so I took that as secondary.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
Not referring to her gods-given powers -- talking about the natural enhanced human prowess she would have as an Amazon of Themiscyra. Most of the more adroit Amazons have demonstrated enhanced strength/agility/stamina on numerous occasions (Phillipus lifted over a ton; Artemis caught/deflected arrows in flight - like Diana; Hippolyta, without her amping from The Source, not only bested Hercules skill-wise, but was able to lift and throw heavy men with one arm, et al). *That's* what I mean when talking about her "natural" Amazonian prowess. I have stated, though, that in her current New Earth setting, it is unclear what her status is when she is in mortal guise -- she may "only" be at peak human female in terms of physical ability, as Circe's enchantment may make her more "mortal-seeming" than previous depowered instances were. And as also already stated, that certainly would give Steve a physical advantage, no question. *But* the point of this thread was about martial prowess, not physical power, so I took that as secondary.

Oh okay.

Meh, Captain America has better feats under his belt. At least greater than the ones you just listed.

Cool.

I like you, you're starting to grow on me. Are you seeing anyone?

Oh and are you a guy or a girl? Might as well find out now.

the ninjak
I knew these Thor threads were just singles pickup sites

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


Oh and are you a guy or a girl? Might as well find out now. he's a guy...so you're good. wink

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Starscream M
he's a guy...so you're good. wink

True. All I need is a mop wig, some lipstick, and stuffed bra on him, and I'll have a good night.

I just hope Enyalus doesn't get jealous. You know how he is at times. sad

tideoftime
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Oh okay.

Meh, Captain America has better feats under his belt. At least greater than the ones you just listed.

Cool.

I like you, you're starting to grow on me. Are you seeing anyone?

Oh and are you a guy or a girl? Might as well find out now.

confused

Uh... okay...

I'm a dude... hence, why I didn't change my gender indicator to "female"...

*Looks to the side of the screen*

Yeah... it says male... Was there some confusion about that? (Well, I guess obviously there was...) Maybe I need to put up an avatar or something -- a couple people have asked that in the past couple of days, or intimated it by referring to me as "he/she" or "his/her"...

While perhaps politically incorrect, I take the natural assumption for online geek-zones that a poster is : 18-40, male, white, and at least nominally geeky (you can still be a "dude", buff and/or athletic, etc, but let's be honest -- people wouldn't be posting here if they weren't at least half-way possessed by the Power of the Geek...). Of course, if indicated as being female, of a different ethnicity, or a lower/higher age, I give a nod and mentally file that info for future reference.

EDIT: Soooo.... you gonna flash your boobs/moobs, or what...? I'll toss some Mardi Gras beads...

the ninjak
laughing

Starscream M
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
True. All I need is a mop wig, some lipstick, and stuffed bra on him, and I'll have a good night.

I just hope Enyalus doesn't get jealous. You know how he is at times. sad laughing out loud

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
confused

Uh... okay...

I'm a dude... hence, why I didn't change my gender indicator to "female"...

*Looks to the side of the screen*

Yeah... it says male... Was there some confusion about that? (Well, I guess obviously there was...) Maybe I need to put up an avatar or something -- a couple people have asked that in the past couple of days, or intimated it by referring to me as "he/she" or "his/her"...

While perhaps politically incorrect, I take the natural assumption for online geek-zones that a poster is : 18-40, male, white, and at least nominally geeky (you can still be a "dude", buff and/or athletic, etc, but let's be honest -- people wouldn't be posting here if they weren't at least half-way possessed by the Power of the Geek...). Of course, if indicated as being female, of a different ethnicity, or a lower/higher age, I give a nod and mentally file that info for future reference.

Just wanted to make sure is all. I don't have a problem with it, but I want to know what I'm getting into. Plus I picture most Wonder Woman fans as women. I don't know why to be honest.

So, are you single? You never answered the most important question yet.

Don't worry. I'm pretty built, and I'm good looking, at least from what I've heard. The only reason I'm on these sites is because of Thor and like a poster revealed, a way to pick up people. Eventually I got hooked. To be honest, I'm kind of in the closest with my geeky side. Only like two of the friends I chill on the daily basis with know who Thor is and know I read comics every once in a while when I'm bored or on the john. Lol.

Oh, and do you like being on top or bottom? Also a very important question.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Just wanted to make sure is all. I don't have a problem with it, but I want to know what I'm getting into.

So, are you single? You never answered the most important question yet.

Don't worry. I'm pretty built, and I'm good looking, at least from what I've heard. The only reason I'm on these sites is because of Thor and like a poster revealed, a way to pick up people. Eventually I got hooked. To be honest, I'm kind of in the closest with my geeky side. Only like two of the friends I chill on the daily basis with know who Thor is and know I read comics every once in a while when I'm bored or on the john. Lol.

C'mon, man... get outta that closet... flash yer man-t!tties to the world and scream "I'm Thor's B!tch, and proud of it!!!!"

Unless Enyalus is pimping you out to somebody else right now...

Pimping ain't easy...

Especially when whoring out one of Thor's portable mangina's...

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
C'mon, man... get outta that closet... flash yer man-t!tties to the world and scream "I'm Thor's B!tch, and proud of it!!!!"

Unless Enyalus is pimping you out to somebody else right now...

Pimping ain't easy...

Especially when whoring out one of Thor's portable mangina's...

I made a special video just for you. I hope it gets you all hot and bothered.

love

Yea, Enyalus with his Thanos impressions can get pretty damn rough at times. I'm all up for role playing but when he starts putting on a life sized Infinity Gauntlet, I get scared.

Man, you know me so well.

tideoftime
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I made a special video just for you. I hope it gets you all hot and bothered.

love

Yea, Enyalus with his Thanos impressions can get pretty damn rough at times. I'm all up for role playing but when he starts putting on a life sized Infinity Gauntlet, I get scared.

Man, you know me so well.

Hey, at least you can say you got fisted by the Infinity Gauntlet...

That actually takes you pretty far in certain circles...

And as far as the link...

Excuse me while I rub one out -- the hottness is just too much... and those teeth really let me know that boyfriend must give mad... dental x-rays...

Yeah, that's what I was going to say... Dental X-Rays... yeah...

*****

I think this thread is officially over...

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by tideoftime
Hey, at least you can say you got fisted by the Infinity Gauntlet...

That actually takes you pretty far in certain circles...

And as far as the link...

Excuse me while I rub one out -- the hottness is just too much... and those teeth really let me know that boyfriend must give mad... dental x-rays...

Yeah, that's what I was going to say... Dental X-Rays... yeah...

*****

I think this thread is officially over...

:eek

Enyalus is just too damn rough with me. Too many pimp hands just killed my teeth. And uhhh, other activities.

laughing

Aww, already? I thought we were making a real connection.

Well I gotta go anyways. I have a test next period, so I gotta study for at least 15 minutes.

Bye. love

the ninjak
I knew it!

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus


I like you, you're starting to grow on me. Are you seeing anyone?

Oh and are you a guy or a girl? Might as well find out now.

I go away from this thread for a day and then I come back to find this? smokin'

Omega Vision
Way to kill my thread guys. roll eyes (sarcastic)

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