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So here we go. I was thinking to let the KMC users to debate and decide a proper match for the Longinus Dreizehn Orden, the main antagonists from Dies Irae, the second visual novel of the Kami Sama (Shinza) series. As it's not translate and not too well known, I'll sume them up to the best of my ability.

The LDO are mostly a group of super powered Nazis made into Reinhard Heydrich's Legion, that is, undead soldiers. Their physical power is pretty overwhelming. Without the use of any Holy Relic (their weapons), one of their members nuked Berlin by sheer physical might. Any attack used by a LDO member using his Holy Relic has soul****ing properties, it can deal spiritual damage that bypasses physical durability. They can absorb souls too, but only those of the people they have already killed. Each absorbed soul makes them stronger, and gets added to Reinhard's Legion. Now, their integrants:

I. Reinhard Heydrich: Himmler's second himself. Without the use of nothing but his will, he mind raped thousands of people into killing themselves, and later absorbed their souls. His Holy Relic, Longinuslanze Testament, is the very true Lance of Longinus. It has defined powers as being a weapon that is always faster than the enemy, it is unavoidable and it's insta kill. It also adds anyone killed by it to Reinhard's Legion, and can negate supernatural stuff. Reinhard has the power to summon a Valhalla like Castle, which is his own world, and it contains the totality of his Legion, which is also summoned and under his command. The Legion includes all the LDO and the entire Totenkopf Reich (millions of soldiers armed with soul****ing Mausers, Wolfsangels and Panzerfausts, legions of tanks...). Anyone killed in the Castle is added to this Legion. The Legionnaries lack the concept of death, so they won't die, just respawn with all their equipment.

II.Tubal Cain: A walking 2 m corpse created thanks to a curse on a replica of Longinuslanze Testament. Said copy is his Holy Relic, even though it lacks the power of the original. It has the power to induce corrosion on his surroundings and of creating lightning (resumed version).

III. Valeria Trifa: Priest. His Holy Relic, Holy Grail, is his own body. It grants him perfect defense to everything. He can summon Longinuslanze Testament and launch it (not wield it), but this disables his defense to the point that he has the durability of a normal human.

IV. Wilhelm Ehrenburg: SS Oficial. His Holy Relic is the blood of Vlad the Impaler himself, and can launch it as soul****ing blood projectiles. He has the power to create a world of night around him where he is practically omnipresent, can automatically sap the lifeforce of whoever's inside to fuel himself, and can generate LOTS of blood thorns to pierce the enemy. The only way to escape is to destroy the moon Wilhelm's power creates.

V. Kei Sakurai. Her Holy Relic is a sword passed from generation to generation in her family which can generate flame. Her special power is to become fire.

VI. Rea Himuro: Useless here since her powers were plot related.

VII. Goetz von Berlichingen: One of Reinhard's commanders. He was punching tanks apart in the prologue and a swing of his arm can send someone flying. His Holy Relic, Deus Ex Machina, is his body. His special power is an insta kill move that kills anything his fists hit regardless of durability (it is a form of reality warping like all LDO special powers).

VIII. Rusalka Schwagerin: Her Holy Relic is the diary of Elizabeth Bartley, which lets her summon gruesome, soul****ing torture machines. Her special powers stops all movement of whoever touched her shadow, which is nasty if se take into account what her Relic does...

IX. Eleonore von Wittenburg: Another one of Reinhard's commanders. Can summon flames powerful enough to reduce full grown men to ashes. Her Holy Relic is a goddamn Railway Gun of World War II. Her special power creates a world of flame in which the enemy is swarmed by canonically unavoidable blasts that exceed the output of nukes.

X. Rot Spinne: This mother****er is possibly Joseph Mengele. He is useless in the grand scheme of things.

XI: Riza Brenner: Rather useless. Her only power is controlling Tubal Cain.

XII. Wolfgang Schreiber: SS Official. One of Reinhard's commanders. He nuked Berlin with sheer strength in the prologue. His Holy Relic are two Wolfsangels. His special power is to be always faster than his opponent.

Those are all the members minus XIII, whom I'm not going to include.

Next is a bonus scenario, who would you pick as an opponent for Reinhard at full power? I did not describe his full power above. When a certain plot point happens, Reinhard's powers experience a massive power creep. He gains the ability to use Taikyoku, an ability that consists in modifying abstract concepts to ones liking. His Legion experiences a huge power creep, now all the LDO and Nazi soldiers can use their powers, Relics or normal weapons to **** with concepts. Keep in mind that Reinhard's Legion is now in the "one hundred million foot soldiers able to rape concepts in the worst of ways". Now Reinhard can use the special powers of all the LDO members himself, but amped to conceptual level. All members of his Legion can use them too. In this state, Reinhard laughed off supernovae and multiversal singularities via conceptual ****ing.

Finally some VN characters. Glad to see I'm not the only one with such an idea.

Onto the thread though, that's a pretty tough thing to do. If they really are this powerful (and I do so hope Dies Irae gets an English patch so I can download it), then as far as manga/anime goes, any high tiers from mangas like Bastard should be more than a match for them save for full powered Reinhard. Also to consider would perhaps be Toaru Majutsu no Index high/top tiers like Fiamma of the Right and the Invisible Thing and Othinus.

Thinking on this from a comics perspective, I doubt most of earth's heroes could do much of anything against them in terms of sheer hax, though I suppose Dr. Strange could counter them including herald level characters.

As for a full powered Reinhard, if he really can do all of that, then it'd probably take guys like Galactus to out and out kill him. If it's simply a matter of making a good fight/match between him and another character though, then maybe lower level abstracts would do.

Originally posted by danteiscool
Finally some VN characters. Glad to see I'm not the only one with such an idea.

Onto the thread though, that's a pretty tough thing to do. If they really are this powerful (and I do so hope Dies Irae gets an English patch so I can download it), then as far as manga/anime goes, any high tiers from mangas like Bastard should be more than a match for them save for full powered Reinhard. Also to consider would perhaps be Toaru Majutsu no Index high/top tiers like Fiamma of the Right and the Invisible Thing and Othinus.

Thinking on this from a comics perspective, I doubt most of earth's heroes could do much of anything against them in terms of sheer hax, though I suppose Dr. Strange could counter them including herald level characters.

As for a full powered Reinhard, if he really can do all of that, then it'd probably take guys like Galactus to out and out kill him. If it's simply a matter of making a good fight/match between him and another character though, then maybe lower level abstracts would do.

Yeah, I think we see too much of the same thing in versus here (troll and joke threads). Initiating a thread with characters from a relatively unknown, uber powerful visual novel universe seemed fresh. About an english Dies Irae patch, it's not likely to happen. Masada (the writer of the Shinza series, which includes Paradise Lost, Dies Irae and Kajiri Kamui Kagura) uses an absurdly difficult japanese that borders on theatrical play language. I don't think it will ever get translated. A shame, because I'm currently reading Dies Irae , and it's been amazing so far.

The special powers of the LDO members (Briah) bases itself on projecting its member's desire upon the universe. It can either create a new world (akin to a Reality Marble from the Nasuverse) or it can have an effect upon the user himself. For example, Valeria's desire is to become Reinhard, so his Briah summons Longinuslanze Testament, Reinhard's Relic. Schreiber's desire is to not be touched, so his Briah makes him faster than his opponent via reality warping. So unless the enemy has stronger reality warping, the Briah's hax effect ( such as Machina's instant death effect or Eleonore unavoidable nuke blasts) will work as advertised.

Reinhard's most powerful form is due to Atziluth, the level above Briah. In this state, his mere desire that created Valhalla and his Legion becomes a cosmic, multiversal law. Taikyoku lets him to make his bitches anyone who has a lower Taikyoku Value. Reinhard's opponent in the novel was Mercurius, the Throne God that originated the Shinza multiverse, whose Atziluth consists in resetting the whole multiverse, along with the usual Taikyoku powers. Well, Mercurius literally created the very concept of multiverse. During their fight, Mercurius threw Supernovae and high level cosmic phenomena at him, Reinhard was able to counter them using Eleonore's Briah, just because of Taikyoku. And then the time in which Mercurius tried to crush him with infinite universes and failed.... To add more perspective, weaker people than Reinhard in Kajiri Kamui Kagura have done shit such as poisoning the very concept of infinite possibilities and were able to lay waste to the whole multiverse.

It's going to take FAR more than Galactus or people like Eternity to take him down, or even one of his Legionnaires.

Reading it in English? How? Where? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Given this unique approach to reality warping (despite it being forced upon the universe, so to speak) is still only limited to a single entity in the end, I don't think finding people with a stronger reality warping ability in either comics or manga/anime will be too hard a challenge (though ultimately I cannot immediately think of any).

Most impressive. Ultimately though that whole 'poisoning the infinite universe' thing is more of a chain reaction that they kick off. It takes time, in other words. And guys of Galactus' level are still pretty much multiversal in power and with his Ultimate Nullifer, his destructive power jumps up drastically and there are plenty of other beings on his level too.

Originally posted by danteiscool
Reading it in English? How? Where? I'm genuinely interested to know.

Given this unique approach to reality warping (despite it being forced upon the universe, so to speak) is still only limited to a single entity in the end, I don't think finding people with a stronger reality warping ability in either comics or manga/anime will be too hard a challenge (though ultimately I cannot immediately think of any).

Most impressive. Ultimately though that whole 'poisoning the infinite universe' thing is more of a chain reaction that they kick off. It takes time, in other words. And guys of Galactus' level are still pretty much multiversal in power and with his Ultimate Nullifer, his destructive power jumps up drastically and there are plenty of other beings on his level too.

Well, I'm reading it in Japanese However, there's a blog around the net called Gareblogs that contains REALLY good Dies Irae translations, so good they are even enjoyable.

Here it is the translations section of the blog You can most definately find the Prologue of the novel completely translated (you can see Schreiber, Eleonore and Goetz in action, and you get introduced to Reinhard and Mercurius, along with awesome dialogue), badass dialogues between Reinhard and Mercurius, the scene in which Reinhard uses his Briah, the fight between Ren's and Reinhard's Atziluth...

Galactus is kinda a special case, as the Ultimate Nullifier is a conceptual weapon that can destroy concepts. However, in terms of reality warping, I think Reinhard has him beaten.

Oh, and **** my mistake in first post. I typed that Schreiber's Relic were Wolfsangels when they are two guns

Gareblogs, huh...? Okay. I'll give it a shot and see what it's got. Thanks.

Okay. I'll also check that out.

But even excluding the Ultimate Nullifier, guys like Galactus are still abstract entities themselves (though I forgot what Galactus covers) so even without the UN, he should still definitely have the means needed to hurt and possibly kill Reinhard at full power.

No worries.

Originally posted by danteiscool
Gareblogs, huh...? Okay. I'll give it a shot and see what it's got. Thanks.

Okay. I'll also check that out.

But even excluding the Ultimate Nullifier, guys like Galactus are still abstract entities themselves (though I forgot what Galactus covers) so even without the UN, he should still definitely have the means needed to hurt and possibly kill Reinhard at full power.

No worries.

There's a problem with that. Galactus' feats have their ups and downs, he can go from equal to Eternity to being a Celestial's personal football. Even as an equal to Eternity, Reinhard is the kind of guy who uses conceptual warping, more than the normal kind that you see in media. He can easily kill, poison, re-define or nuke concepts. Galactus himself hasn't show things this high in the totem pole. He was fighting a guy who can casually reset a multiverse when things don't go his way, and another one who can induce a multiversal conceptual time stop. And he was fighting them as an equal. Galactus hasn't quite reached this level.

That's due to his cosmic hunger. And while his style of fighting is certainly on a more physical level than Dies Irae characters, he's still capable of perceiving such abstract attacks and during the Thanos Imperative when the Galactus Engine showed up, the abstracts in addition to Galactus were fighting on an abstract level against it. But as it is an abstract battle, no one was able to actually perceive it until damage was actually dealt out.

I'll need those scans, looks interesting.

Moving on from that matter, as a group, how does the LDO fare against other fictional groups? Before Reinhard reaches Atziluth, I think they could demolish both Akatsuki and Organization XIII in both sheer raw power and hax. What do you think beyond that?

Yeah, but I wouldn't know where to find such scans unfortunately. But it is part of the Thanos Imperative comic, so that should hopefully save you trouble looking for it.

Onto that particular question, Akatsuki for sure would stand no chance, though from what I hear, Organization XIII is more powerful than I had originally thought, with Xemnas himself being a possible planet buster in power in his base form alone (when he's just wearing the pure black coat) and with his control over nothingness/reality warping, he should take the fight pretty handily provided he attacks from a distance against characters like Rusalka.

Originally posted by danteiscool
Yeah, but I wouldn't know where to find such scans unfortunately. But it is part of the Thanos Imperative comic, so that should hopefully save you trouble looking for it.

Onto that particular question, Akatsuki for sure would stand no chance, though from what I hear, Organization XIII is more powerful than I had originally thought, with Xemnas himself being a possible planet buster in power in his base form alone (when he's just wearing the pure black coat) and with his control over nothingness/reality warping, he should take the fight pretty handily provided he attacks from a distance against characters like Rusalka.

Maybe Kingdom Hearts Xemnas is in that range (And that's a big maybe), but base Xemnas? Not a chance in hell. His best feat is telekinetically juggling with skyscrapers, but he's got no planetary feats.

I wouldn't bet him against Reinhard if he decided to use his Briah, which he tends to do with an ease beyond the others. And once he does that, base Xemnas would have to deal with millions of soldiers, as well as all the LDO members, while they lack the concept of death.

It's mainly based on Sora's and Riku's level of power by that point followed by how decent a fight Xemnas put up against Sora at the game's end. Even then, Xemnas in base form is still above city level in power and he still retains the same abilities as his Twilight form, just to a lower extent.

I think as long as he doesn't mess around and beat Reinhard before he goes into his chant, it should be okay.

Originally posted by danteiscool
It's mainly based on Sora's and Riku's level of power by that point followed by how decent a fight Xemnas put up against Sora at the game's end. Even then, Xemnas in base form is still above city level in power and he still retains the same abilities as his Twilight form, just to a lower extent.

I think as long as he doesn't mess around and beat Reinhard before he goes into his chant, it should be okay.

It was a decent fight, yes, but I haven't seen anything of Sora and Riku that put them at planetary level. Their highest (and wackiest) feats are slicing a great number of skyscrapers, nothing at planet level so far. I assume you are powerscaling from some other character, who is it?

Mainly due to how powerful Disney characters can be like Hercules and how Sora and Riku in turn eventually prove themselves to be just as or even more powerful. Not to mention the lasers Xemnas fires being dodged/blocked casually (prior to the barrage he unleashes near KH2's end).

Originally posted by danteiscool
Mainly due to how powerful Disney characters can be like Hercules and how Sora and Riku in turn eventually prove themselves to be just as or even more powerful. Not to mention the lasers Xemnas fires being dodged/blocked casually (prior to the barrage he unleashes near KH2's end).

Are you referencing the Atlas work? If so, I don't believe Kingdom Hearts' Hercules did it. We cannot mix Greek Mythology with the Disney version.

No no, the movie feats for Hercules, which are more or less canon to Kingdom Hearts and stuff. He is capable of throwing monsters over the horizon and what not, after all.

Originally posted by danteiscool
No no, the movie feats for Hercules, which are more or less canon to Kingdom Hearts and stuff. He is capable of throwing monsters over the horizon and what not, after all.

You meant that? That's a long road away from a planetary feat.

To be fair, that's just the one character and brute strength only goes so far. There are other feats that admittedly I'm immediately incapable of forgetting, but once again there are Xemnas' lasers to consider, Sora and Riku blocking/dodging them, the fact that Xemnas could reality warp an entire 'world' (the world that never was) and probably would've done the same later on if Sora and Riku had lost to him...

Originally posted by danteiscool
To be fair, that's just the one character and brute strength only goes so far. There are other feats that admittedly I'm immediately incapable of forgetting, but once again there are Xemnas' lasers to consider, Sora and Riku blocking/dodging them, the fact that Xemnas could reality warp an entire 'world' (the world that never was) and probably would've done the same later on if Sora and Riku had lost to him...

Reality warping a world? I think you have to be clearer on this issue.

D and Dracula from Vampire Hunter D.

Originally posted by KingD19
D and Dracula from Vampire Hunter D.

Dracula? Sure. He would stomp the normal LDO. Atziluth Reinhard reverses the stomp though.

D is an interesting choice as an opponent to Wilhelm, though. His Briah, Der Rosenkavalier Schwarzwald, not only creates a world of night around him and gives him the ability to steal life force and create blood thorns. As Bey's (Kaziklu Bey is Wilhelm's LDO title/nickname) desire is basically "to become an invincible vampire in the night", his Briah not only gives him abilities reminiscent of vampires, but also their weaknesses. Things such as silver bullets have extra efficiency against him in that state.

On the KH front, the World that Never Was is very, very large (don't know exact size though) and it's pretty much ammunition for Xemnas to use whenever he wishes. It was created from his power and he can manipulate it however he wishes. And as one of the most powerful KH characters around, he's above Disney characters like the Disney versions of Hades and the titans and apparently, Disney characters are surprisingly powerful.

On the Vampire Hunter D front, an interesting match up right there. But if Wilhelm gets the strengths AND weaknesses of a vampire, then shouldn't D be able to defeat him under such circumstances?

Originally posted by danteiscool
On the KH front, the World that Never Was is very, very large (don't know exact size though) and it's pretty much ammunition for Xemnas to use whenever he wishes. It was created from his power and he can manipulate it however he wishes. And as one of the most powerful KH characters around, he's above Disney characters like the Disney versions of Hades and the titans and apparently, Disney characters are surprisingly powerful.

On the Vampire Hunter D front, an interesting match up right there. But if Wilhelm gets the strengths AND weaknesses of a vampire, then shouldn't D be able to defeat him under such circumstances?

We never get an explanation about the World that Never Was. We cannot just assume Xemnas created it when there's no real evidence. It could be some Nobody version of End of the World for all we know. If you mean the world he created in the final battle that looked like The World that Never Was, that is a feat from Xemnas after absorbing the incomplete Kingdom Hearts, not from Xemnas in his normal form.

The point about their fight is if D can match Bey. Even if D has weapons that do extra damage to Bey while in his Briah, even without using his Relic he is faster than the human eye can see and can throw attacks at such speeds, ridiculously durable (a 17 year old like Ren broke his hand by punching Bey's face and he found it impossible to damage his crotch. Ren would be dead if Sakurai hadn't stopped Bey. I know D is beyond Ren at the beginning of Dies in every possible way, but seen this examples of durability I don't know how would he fare), and is a city buster to boot. And that's without taking into account soul fvcking attacks.

Looking at the wiki I believe D can beat Bey by a large margin. If the data is not actually wank, that is, by I got no means to check.

Originally posted by trexalfa
We never get an explanation about the World that Never Was. We cannot just assume Xemnas created it when there's no real evidence. It could be some Nobody version of End of the World for all we know. If you mean the world he created in the final battle that looked like The World that Never Was, that is a feat from Xemnas after absorbing the incomplete Kingdom Hearts, not from Xemnas in his normal form.

The point about their fight is if D can match Bey. Even if D has weapons that do extra damage to Bey while in his Briah, even without using his Relic he is faster than the human eye can see and can throw attacks at such speeds, ridiculously durable (a 17 year old like Ren broke his hand by punching Bey's face and he found it impossible to damage his crotch. Ren would be dead if Sakurai hadn't stopped Bey. I know D is beyond Ren at the beginning of Dies in every possible way, but seen this examples of durability I don't know how would he fare), and is a city buster to boot. And that's without taking into account soul fvcking attacks.

D is even faster than that and even stronger. At one point he blitzed through an infinite amount of space in less than an instant to get to this guy he was fighting. And D can also amp himself by drinking his own blood, which makes him even more powerful than the ridiculous levels he's usually at. D has also tanked attacks beyond city buster with ease and shown he's immune to matter manipulation and reality warping since he's outright ignored the Akashic Records being changed, which results in a change of the entirety of existence. And he's got Left Hand which will also help him out a bunch if he even needs it.

Originally posted by KingD19
D is even faster than that and even stronger. At one point he blitzed through an infinite amount of space in less than an instant to get to this guy he was fighting. And D can also amp himself by drinking his own blood, which makes him even more powerful than the ridiculous levels he's usually at. D has also tanked attacks beyond city buster with ease and shown he's immune to matter manipulation and reality warping since he's outright ignored the Akashic Records being changed, which results in a change of the entirety of existence. And he's got Left Hand which will also help him out a bunch if he even needs it.

I don't doubt it, looking at the wiki D can beat Bey. I'm not able, however, able to check the source material to see if this is true, though.

That's because D is a weird series that exists mainly as actual books instead of anime or manga. So you have to read through chapters to find this stuff.

Originally posted by KingD19
That's because D is a weird series that exists mainly as actual books instead of anime or manga. So you have to read through chapters to find this stuff.

The series is exceedingly long, though. They are releasing novels (I suppose they are light novels) to this day, and I think they begun a long time ago.

Yeah. Which makes it such a hassle.

Isn't the VHD series like a dozen volumes long or something now? Could be wrong about that though...

That said, I do recall Dracula in that series being able to slice through underwater bedrock for miles with a casual sword swing. This was done while he was floating a fair distance above the water too, so it wasn't as if his sword made actual contact with the bedrock. D is more or less able to clash against such strength, iirc.

As for KH, my knowledge is lacking a bit, so don't take it too seriously about the World that Never Was. I was simply trying to note that in terms of overall power, Xemnas in base is on the same level as, if not above, that of the more powerful Disney characters. With KH under his control, his power naturally jumps considerably.