Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

In terms of brute strength, Tulkas is superior.

Juubito is faster and more powerful, however. He would win handily.

Sorry, did I forget to mention speed is equalized?

Yes.

If speed is equalized, why list speed feats for Tulkas? mmm

Juubito still probably wins. I'm moderately certain he is stronger than Toneri, who cut the moon in half.

I wrote the speed for Tulkas earlier, that was a copy paste of his feats, I forgot to get rid of speed stuff, sorry about that.
I'm pretty sure Toneri is stronger then Juubito, who was weaker then One Eyed Juubidara.
Melkor created the Helcaraxë because of his power, so basically he created a huge country sized area of ice.
http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18564. Check it out.

So much bullshit in these calcs. That said the fact that Melkor nearly destroyed the world when he broke the pillars is proof enough for his strength. Of course, Melkor at this time was far more powerful the when Tulkas defeats him.

Originally posted by ares834
So much bullshit in these calcs. That said the fact that Melkor nearly destroyed the world when he broke the pillars is proof enough for his strength. Of course, Melkor at this time was far more powerful the when Tulkas defeats him.
Tulkas at that time was stronger in combat, but Melkor was more powerful.
Tulkas was always the strongest amongst them, Melkor and Manwe were the most powerful.
There's a reason why he is physically the strongest Valar.
Melkor broke the pillars with his strength, which means the feat could be replicated by Tulkas, being stronger in strength.
I don't see the bullshit of the calcs. Please explain.

Originally posted by ares834
So much bullshit in these calcs. That said the fact that Melkor nearly destroyed the world when he broke the pillars is proof enough for his strength. Of course, Melkor at this time was far more powerful the when Tulkas defeats him. I don't want to look at them all, but which calcs do you see as bullshit, and why?

Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't want to look at them all, but which calcs do you see as bullshit, and why?

Both of them. I didn't run through the math but treating the pillars as if they were conventional pillars that are just very large is incredibly silly. The second is just a single interpretation of the quote. He also uses maps not drawn by Tolkien. I'm sure there are many more holes in it but I'm not to bothers to look.

Originally posted by Kadan
Tulkas at that time was stronger in combat, but Melkor was more powerful.
Tulkas was always the strongest amongst them, Melkor and Manwe were the most powerful.
There's a reason why he is physically the strongest Valar.
Melkor broke the pillars with his strength, which means the feat could be replicated by Tulkas, being stronger in strength.
I don't see the bullshit of the calcs. Please explain.

Tulkas is described as the strongest (not necessarily the greatest at combat) of the Valar and only at a time when Melkor is no longer considered one of the Valar.

Could Tulkas be stronger? Sure. But considering at his prime Melkor was as powerful as all the Valar combined (aside from Tulkas) I have my doubts.

Originally posted by ares834
Both of them. I didn't run through the math but treating the pillars as if they were conventional pillars that are just very large is incredibly silly. The second is just a single interpretation of the quote. He also uses maps not drawn by Tolkien. I'm sure there are many more holes in it but I'm not to bothers to look.



Tulkas is described as the strongest (not necessarily the greatest at combat) of the Valar and only at a time when Melkor is no longer considered one of the Valar.

Could Tulkas be stronger? Sure. But considering at his prime Melkor was as powerful as all the Valar combined (aside from Tulkas) I have my doubts.
Tulkas was strongest in combat, which is why he is the God of War. They were lamps my good sir, and they were tall.
There aren't a huge amount of maps Tolkien did my good sir, many were unfinished. And they are still based of Tolkien's, no need to be picky.
Melkor just before fighting Tulkas had beaten down all of the other Valar, and after some rest, Tulkas came in and beat him down into a pulp with ease.
There is a reason why he is "Greatest in strength and deeds of powers."
He was the Champion of Valinor, despite being one of the weaker ones in power.
Though he was one of the least invested into Arda.
Even the mighty Melkor was afraid of Tulkas, but Melkor was never afraid of the others, does that not say something?
I think it does.

That's a whole lot of unsubstantiated claims TBH. And some of it is downright incorrect.

Originally posted by ares834
That's a whole lot of unsubstantiated claims TBH. And some of it is downright incorrect.


How is anything I said clams when its in the books?
Tulkas was called the strongest Valar physically. He was the most Warlike of the Ainur. Nothing wrong there, or am I somehow wrong?
Besides Aule, Tulkas didn't invest any of his power in Arda, as supported by the text. Nothing wrong there.
The Lamps were placed upon pillars. Do I need to tell you the definition of a pillar?
Melkor having just defeated the entire Valar combined besides Tulkas, was then defeated by Tulkas one on one, after an unknown amount of time. Nothing wrong there.
Melkor by simply seeing Tulkas ran away like an afraid baby even though he had fought all the Valar combined.
So please tell me where all of these 'unsubstantiated claims are. Please do tell.

He fought them all, but did not defeat them. He was winning though.

After he destroys the pillars, he is afraid of the voice of Manwe and footsteps of Tulkas. Also, according to the Sil, Melkor fears Varda more than any of the other Valar. It seems wrong but that is what it states...

Originally posted by ares834
He fought them all, but did not defeat them. He was winning though.

After he destroys the pillars, he is afraid of the voice of Manwe and footsteps of Tulkas. Also, according to the Sil, Melkor fears Varda more than any of the other Valar. It seems wrong but that is what it states...
Yes. Never claimed that.....
I don't remember him fearing Varda, it has got to be wrong.
Tulkas and Manwe makes sense.
But I don't remember him fearing any of the others.....
I'll have to give it reread sometime.

Wait, are you sure Melkor was weakened when Tulkas wrestled with him?

Originally posted by Kadan
Yes. Never claimed that.....
I don't remember him fearing Varda, it has got to be wrong.
Tulkas and Manwe makes sense.
But I don't remember him fearing any of the others.....
I'll have to give it reread sometime.

Yes you did...

Originally posted by Kadan
Melkor having just defeated the entire Valar combined besides Tulkas, was then defeated by Tulkas one on one, after an unknown amount of time.

"and feared her more than all others whom Eru made."

From the Valaquenta in the published Sil.

Originally posted by Kadan
Wait, are you sure Melkor was weakened when Tulkas wrestled with him?

Yes. It's from an essay in Morgoth's Ring.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes you did...



"and feared her more than all others whom Eru made."

From the Valaquenta in the published Sil.
YOUR RIGHT I DID! Bloody hell, my memory is awful.
Strange, Melkor appeared more afraid of Tulkas then Manwe or Varda.

'Note that in the early age of Arda he (Melkor) was alone able to drive the Valar out of Middle-earth into retreat."
Notice how he mentions that Melkor is alone and does not have his armies of Maiar helping him yet.

That Melkor was as mighty as the rest of the Valar combined would also help explain why they were weary to make war upon him. Indeed, according to Tolkien, "The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence." Yet, at that time, unbeknownst to the Valar, Melkor was far weaker than he initially was. "But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant.
Found these notes, interesting. It seems Melkor when he fought Tulkas was more or less at Manwe's power or slightly lower.

It seems that with the round world version Tolkien wrote, that he intended to make Melkor physically strong enough to rip a continent from Arda and then to throw it into the sky, creating the Moon.
Tolkien envisioned a continental (with power or bare hands,) actual star busting villain. But never got to do it.
I think its easy to say Melkor at his height is greater then Tulkas, though it appears Tulkas isn't a huge amount behind in the strength department, if you consider the Dagor Dagoroth.

Well, it seems this thread is finished, and I'd have to say that I think Tulkas is the victor.