Punisher vs Angel(warren)

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Wild Shadow
Punisher gets a K-bar in hand and one small boot knife in his boot or leg.


Warren stays in his angel form.

1. grounded fighting.

2. Flight allowed.

cis on morality on inside church building.

Frank contemplating in church sitting in one of the front benches, Warren also on his way to think and pray sees frank...

start off 20 ft apart.

753
angel on both

Deadline
Why on earth would Angel beat Punisher? Wow people really think punisher sux at h2h.

Deadline
OOps flight is allowed..still not sure if that give him a massive advantage. Its not like hes got laser vision.

753
I didnt read the part that says he has to stay in angel form. That makes it more even. Still, Angel can put a man down with a single flap of his wings.

1. punisher 6/10

2. angel 10/10 just pick things ip and drop them on him

Wild Shadow
i dont know about angel getting 10/10 in flight but i too give him the comfortable edge.

in ground fighting is what i am more interested in. imo i think warren can beat frank 6/10

The Nuul
1. Frank
2. Frank kicks his ass.

psycho gundam
someone's losing their wings....again

h1MlbvLRbno

Wild Shadow
Originally posted by psycho gundam
someone's losing their wings....again

frank castle when he was an agent of heaven? b4 he rejected the angels?

psycho gundam
nah, just a two-time navy SEAl that will hit the incoming angel with a church bench then cut him into a pez dispenser

-Pr-
Can Warren become death? As it's a normal part of his powerset now, and all...

Wild Shadow
if he were allowed to, he would murder frank 10 out of 10 times

leonidas
on the ground castle kills him. in air i'd say it's a LOT closer. angel can take it imo for a majority though i could see it being dependent on the battlefield.

753
How is a grounded human soldier who isn't even peak human and gets by on ruthlessnes and good aim going to put angel down with a k-bar and a knife?

Deadline
Oh forget it.

the ninjak
Castle wouldn't see him coming...
Realistically Warren at the first whiff of Frank hunting him would transform anyway.
But grounded? Castle.
Aerial Warren.
Archangel would win grounded though.

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Oh forget it.

ok

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
ok

Maybe this will help.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=527917&pagenumber=1

The Nuul
Originally posted by Deadline
Oh forget it.

Some people just dont read Punisher enough to know he can take on low level Super Humans just fine without guns....

Parmaniac
1. Punisher
2. I'm not sure

Deadline
Originally posted by The Nuul
Some people just dont read Punisher enough to know he can take on low level Super Humans just fine without guns....

Tell me about it.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Castle wouldn't see him coming...
Realistically Warren at the first whiff of Frank hunting him would transform anyway.
But grounded? Castle.
Aerial Warren.
Archangel would win grounded though.

No archangel in this thread.

the ninjak
Yeah I know
Castle Grounded
Warren Aerial

Deadline
Originally posted by the ninjak
Yeah I know
Castle Grounded
Warren Aerial

I still think he can win aerial. Its not like hes going to stand there and wait for him to pounce. Punisher has a whole envinronment he can use to his advantage. He'll probably wait for him then jump him.

Hes also skilled enough to get him by throwing his knife eventhough its not a foregone conclusion.

the ninjak
I agree also depends on the size of the church.
If massive cathedral size Warren has the advantage.
Castle will definitely go under the benches and crawl slide towards an enclosed area but with morality on I can't see why Warren would create any collateral damage to flush him out. I realistically see him flying up to a banner and calling the cops.
The second Warren tries to poke his head under the benches he very well is in trouble.
Considering both scenarios Frank wins all together 8/10
It's an odd locale and the only way the stalemate can conclude in the Aerial scenario is if sirens signal police arrival outside the church and Frank makes a run for it which will conclude with something whacking his head at sonic speed.

But Frank wins this simply because of the knife.

If he had a gun he wins 10/10

The Nuul
Originally posted by Deadline
I still think he can win aerial. Its not like hes going to stand there and wait for him to pounce. Punisher has a whole envinronment he can use to his advantage. He'll probably wait for him then jump him.

Hes also skilled enough to get him by throwing his knife eventhough its not a foregone conclusion.


I agree that Frank will bait and wait. Only striking when he needs too. All he needs is one good hit or just keep striking away until Angel is too weak from bleeding too much....then its over.

Survivor19
Nonsense.
All Warren needs is one good hit.
Frank, on the other hand, just con't be realistically able to dish out enough damage to overcome his HF.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Survivor19
Nonsense.
All Warren needs is one good hit.
Frank, on the other hand, just con't be realistically able to dish out enough damage to overcome his HF.

This is Warren no Archangel evolution Tech involved.
Just light bones enhanced muscles and extreme flight ability.
Plus it's in a church where Frank has access to benches and other tight areas.

Survivor19
If you want to take away his HF, you should say so. Because it's his legitimate ability in Angel (non-metal) form, too

753
Feathery angel has soloed a sentinel, can wreck or kill a man with a single flap of his wings and has a healing factor. He doesnt need to go after punisher, all he needs to do is pick things up and drop them on him. And I very much doubt punisher will take him down with a knife throw.

Wild Shadow
cant feathered wing angel create dust cloud and strong winds to knock back punisher and just pummel him that way?


i wasnt aware that even in his normal feathered state warren had a strong HF.. is strong enough to tank knife wounds?

the ninjak
Originally posted by Survivor19
If you want to take away his HF, you should say so. Because it's his legitimate ability in Angel (non-metal) form, too
Cool news to me. I grew up with an Angel that ended up in hospital after wounds. Especially to his wings.
Originally posted by 753
Feathery angel has soloed a sentinel, can wreck or kill a man with a single flap of his wings and has a healing factor. He doesnt need to go after punisher, all he needs to do is pick things up and drop them on him. And I very much doubt punisher will take him down with a knife throw.
He's in a church though....lots of cover and Warren can't just drop things when Frank instictively go under pews and awaits a ground assault. Can Warren take a knife to the vitals...how strong is his HF?

753
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
cant feathered wing angel create dust cloud and strong winds to knock back punisher and just pummel him that way?


i wasnt aware that even in his normal feathered state warren had a strong HF.. is strong enough to tank knife wounds?

I'm farily certain he can handle a stab wound, besides punisher will have to come way too close to his wings to stab him. A dust cloud I suppose is within his power, winds to knock him down I dont think so.

Originally posted by the ninjak
He's in a church though....lots of cover and Warren can't just drop things when Frank instictively go under pews and awaits a ground assault. Can Warren take a knife to the vitals...how strong is his HF?

Some sacred images are rather heavy so they can cause some damage despite him hiding beneath the benchs, besides sooner or later he'll have to come out. Burning the place down is another way to flush him out. I think he survives a stab to his vital organs, even if it compromises his fighting abilities, he'll have the oportunitie to counterstrike with his wings immediatelly, if punisher closes in on him, probably before being stabbed too.

Survivor19
Nowadays, when you tear his wings off, you just make him angry, lol

The Nuul
Scans or issue numbers of Warren having a HF before his second mutation.

753
Originally posted by The Nuul
Scans or issue numbers of Warren having a HF before his second mutation.

it is his secondary mutation, further explored during the draco storyline. it's still active as far as I know, dont recall anyone saying he no longer has a HF.

the ninjak
Ahhhh second mutation, makes sense.

This changes everything.

amnesia
Punisher = super badass

Angels = extremely lame.

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
I'm farily certain he can handle a stab wound, besides punisher will have to come way too close to his wings to stab him. A dust cloud I suppose is within his power, winds to knock him down I dont think so.

Punisher has been capable of stunning Wolverine.
Wolverines HF > Angels.


Originally posted by 753

Some sacred images are rather heavy so they can cause some damage despite him hiding beneath the benchs, besides sooner or later he'll have to come out. Burning the place down is another way to flush him out. I think he survives a stab to his vital organs, even if it compromises his fighting abilities, he'll have the oportunitie to counterstrike with his wings immediatelly, if punisher closes in on him, probably before being stabbed too.

So wait Angel is better than Wolverine, Daredevil, Kraven The Hunter, Bullseyes and Moon Knight at h2h. A severaly sleep deprived Punisher has taken full force class 10 shots from Spiderman (bloodlusted) and taken on Daken with a broken leg.

Wait Angel > Spiderman Angel > Daken?

Punisher has managed to sneak up on Wolverine in the jungle but somehow Punisher the master of catching out opponents is going to get beaten by Angel...pppppplease. Hell hes also managed to hide from Dr Doom who was hunting him, so no in a game of cat and mouse Angel loses because its Punishers forte.

The Nuul
Originally posted by 753
it is his secondary mutation, further explored during the draco storyline. it's still active as far as I know, dont recall anyone saying he no longer has a HF.

I think the OP meant Angel before his second mutation, the original version?

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Punisher has been capable of stunning Wolverine.
Wolverines HF > Angels.

So wait Angel is better than Wolverine, Daredevil, Kraven The Hunter, Bullseyes and Moon Knight at h2h. A severaly sleep deprived Punisher has taken full force class 10 shots from Spiderman (bloodlusted) and taken on Daken with a broken leg.

Wait Angel > Spiderman Angel > Daken?

Punisher has managed to sneak up on Wolverine in the jungle but somehow Punisher the master of catching out opponents is going to get beaten by Angel...pppppplease. Hell hes also managed to hide from Dr Doom who was hunting him, so no in a game of cat and mouse Angel loses because its Punishers forte.

You are familiar with PIS, CIS jobbing and character shields right? Punisher is a baseline human, him shrugging off class 10 punches means SM was either holding back a lot or the writer simply threw logic out the window to tell a story - PIS - If I'm not mistaken SM is > class 10 too.

I recall him stunning wolverine with a baseball bat to the nuts, comic relief + pis, wolverine walks grenade explosions off and pushes through far more pain on a regular basis. If there is another time he stunned logan with the kind of equipment he's been given here please show me.

Punisher must have also become the stealthiest man on the planet to do something a couple of people wearing tech that made them undetectable to all natural, magical, technological and psionic senses, couldn't do, let alone in the jungle - is that the story logan gets an arrow shot through his ear and it comes out the other side of his skull? prime example of bad writing if it is. I haven't read the doom event, what happened there? For this fight they start 6 meters apart and are in a closed environment, so he won't disappear in front of angel's eyes.

Not only do I recognize punisher's h2h skills, I gave him 6/10 in the no flight scenario against an opponent with a reach advantage (wingspan), superstrong wings that can oneshot a man and a hf. Although the more I think about it, the less I see angel losing it, because of his hf.

With flight, punisher cant touch angel, so I believe my assesment of the outcome of this fight in the first page is pretty accurate.

753
Originally posted by The Nuul
I think the OP meant Angel before his second mutation, the original version?

Well, I took it to mean not archangel form, as he now can switch back and forth them at will.
His feathery form with natural skin colour has had a hf for a while and went by the codename of angel, so I think it's fair game

The Nuul
"Warren stays in his angel form."

Yeah, he just cant go into archangel form....its current version.

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
You are familiar with PIS, CIS jobbing and character shields right? Punisher is a baseline human, him shrugging off class 10 punches means SM was either holding back a lot or the writer simply threw logic out the window to tell a story - PIS - If I'm not mistaken SM is > class 10 too.

No you don't call it PIS when you don't like it. That is ridiculous. Just because somebody is regarded as being human doesn't mean that they can't take superhuman levels of damage. Hell Elektra is considered to be human but has psychic powers.

It really doesnt matter if hes called human, hes showings indicate that he has enhanced damage soak.

Originally posted by 753

I recall him stunning wolverine with a baseball bat to the nuts, comic relief + pis, wolverine walks grenade explosions off and pushes through far more pain on a regular basis. If there is another time he stunned logan with the kind of equipment he's been given here please show me.

Again whats with the PIS because you don't like it. Punisher kicks Wolverine to the ground with a kick in Punisher and Wolverine series, and theres this,

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1365/11891738.jpg

Originally posted by 753

Punisher must have also become the stealthiest man on the planet to do something a couple of people wearing tech that made them undetectable to all natural, magical, technological and psionic senses, couldn't do, let alone in the jungle - is that the story logan gets an arrow shot through his ear and it comes out the other side of his skull? prime example of bad writing if it is.


No its Punisher war journal. Wolverine didn't know Punisher was looking for him but Wolverine still has enhanced senses. Lots of people have sneaked up on Wolverine.

Originally posted by 753


I haven't read the doom event, what happened there? For this fight they start 6 meters apart and are in a closed environment, so he won't disappear in front of angel's eyes.


He doesnt diappear in fron of his eyes. Its a building he can run and hide. Punisher ahs given DD the slip Angel doesnt stand a chance.

Originally posted by 753

Not only do I recognize punisher's h2h skills, I gave him 6/10 in the no flight scenario against an opponent with a reach advantage (wingspan), superstrong wings that can oneshot a man and a hf. Although the more I think about it, the less I see angel losing it, because of his hf.

With flight, punisher cant touch angel, so I believe my assesment of the outcome of this fight in the first page is pretty accurate.

No its not accurate you think he going to stand there and let angel throw stuff at him, and yes he stand a decent chance of getting him with his knife.

753
It is either pis or SM holding back, because he could crush punisher's skull in his hands.

Punisher had prep when he did that to logan, he hunted him down and logan fought like a moron in a low showing. He underestimated the punisher, but would still have killed him at the end if it werent for the lols moment with the punisher's gay/bodybuilding mags. that baseball bat stunning him is a very low showing too, superman gas station low, logan has tanked much worse like nothing. Kicking him back isn't stunning him, logan isn't that hard to punch or kick back, but if he stayed down with a kick it's PIS because it flies in the face of his very long history of feats. In a straight up fight, logan would wreck him. And again I gave him the majority in the no flight fight, so I'm not underestimating his fighting prowess.

With the kind of tech doom has in that armour I find it difficult to believe he couldnt scan the whole building and find him, but because the armour has and lacks whatever gadgets the story needs it to, I suppose it's legit.

Just what do you see punisher doing for cover that warren can't possibly hit him? I doubt he can take angel down with a knife throw, Angel is a master maneuverer, even in closed space, and the wings are very fast and very strong, more than enough to blow that thing away like nothing. Warren is a decent fighter himself specially when airborn.

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
It is either pis or SM holding back, because he could crush punisher's skull in his hands.

Just because he could crush his head in his hands doesnt mean that he can kill Punisher with a punch. Punisher has enhanced durability and people with enhanced durability can take class 10 shots.

Originally posted by 753

Punisher had prep when he did that to logan, he hunted him down and logan fought like a moron in a low showing. He underestimated the punisher, but would still have killed him at the end if it werent for the lols moment with the punisher's gay/bodybuilding mags. that baseball bat stunning him is a very low showing too, superman gas station low, logan has tanked much worse like nothing. Kicking him back isn't stunning him, logan isn't that hard to punch or kick back, but if he stayed down with a kick it's PIS because it flies in the face of his very long history of feats. In a straight up fight, logan would wreck him. And again I gave him the majority in the no flight fight, so I'm not underestimating his fighting prowess.

1. He did not have prep. He didn't plan what he did before hand they were fighting in a shopping centre. It was on the fly much like this situation.
2. Stop screaming PIS. Its not a low showing at all. Hes already beaten Wolverine before and hes fought against Daken with a broken leg. Hes also fought wolverine 2 other times are all those examples PIS.
3. Wolverine was on his knees briefly and skilled martial artists can stun Wolverine breifly its not PIS.

Originally posted by 753

With the kind of tech doom has in that armour I find it difficult to believe he couldnt scan the whole building and find him, but because the armour has and lacks whatever gadgets the story needs it to, I suppose it's legit.

It was all over New York.

Originally posted by 753

Just what do you see punisher doing for cover that warren can't possibly hit him? I doubt he can take angel down with a knife throw, Angel is a master maneuverer, even in closed space, and the wings are very fast and very strong, more than enough to blow that thing away like nothing. Warren is a decent fighter himself specially when airborn.

You don't know anything about Punisher do you. Hes a trained marine, when it comes to cat and mouse its job. Hell Punisher has given Daredevil the sleep, what makes you think Punbisher can't jump Angel? I shouldn't even be having to explain this.

Wild Shadow
Angel isnt a slouch either in the combat training department.

angel was trained by Xavier in aerial maneuvers and combating superhumans with various powersets.


Punisher surviving past metas that can easily kill him doesnt mean he can beat another who is willing to ko,kill him using the best of his abilities.


Pun surviving for a while against daken who was toying with him the whole time doesnt mean squat for his own ability to fight him on even footing...

same goes for logan who was barrel rolling through his attacks in instead of using his full potential in a combat situation.

same with spiderman, Pun not being killed by a punch from the spider doesnt mean he has enhanced durability just that spideman held back significantly.. punisher taking a full 10 ton punch is illogical for his powerset which is no powers..

i think punisher does have superior durability above ur average olympic lvl human perhaps peak durability but that isnt much...

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Just because he could crush his head in his hands doesnt mean that he can kill Punisher with a punch. Punisher has enhanced durability and people with enhanced durability can take class 10 shots.



1. He did not have prep. He didn't plan what he did before hand they were fighting in a shopping centre. It was on the fly much like this situation.
2. Stop screaming PIS. Its not a low showing at all. Hes already beaten Wolverine before and hes fought against Daken with a broken leg. Hes also fought wolverine 2 other times are all those examples PIS.
3. Wolverine was on his knees briefly and skilled martial artists can stun Wolverine breifly its not PIS.

It was all over New York.

You don't know anything about Punisher do you. Hes a trained marine, when it comes to cat and mouse its job. Hell Punisher has given Daredevil the sleep, what makes you think Punbisher can't jump Angel? I shouldn't even be having to explain this.

Realistically, unless the class 10 holds back, his punches should at the very least ko him, not to mention ruin his face and break a jaw.

He did have prep, he sought logan out after he had teamed up with an old school mobster to take out a derranged boss. He ambushed logan and then goaded him into following him only to hit him at every turn. At the end he was still gonna end up dead. IIRC in that same story he blows logans face off with a shotgun and that barely slows him down, just to show the inconsistancy. Logan has tanked far worse like nothing, so I dont really see the point of claiming that is an average showing of his durabilty and damage soak. Would you even say simples blows like that would stun the punisher when you claim he can shrug off class 10 punches without pis? Logan has shrugged hulk blows off.

He has surprised DD with prep and traps, how would he magically disappear in plain view and then jump warren out of nowhere in a church? They start 6 meters apart, I dont see this turning into hide and go seek. so what if he is a trained marine? their world is a dime a dozen special forces units

-Pr-
amazing how warren gets neutered just so the other guy can compete.

also, he's had his healing factor for about a decade now.

Deadline
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Angel isnt a slouch either in the combat training department.

angel was trained by Xavier in aerial maneuvers and combating superhumans with various powersets.


Er yeah but something tells me hes not more agile than Spiderman.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

Punisher surviving past metas that can easily kill him doesnt mean he can beat another who is willing to ko,kill him using the best of his abilities.

Thats a contradiction if he can survive them then it suggests they cant easily kill him. I think you might want to rephrase that.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

Pun surviving for a while against daken who was toying with him the whole time doesnt mean squat for his own ability to fight him on even footing...

...and now you've started making stuff up he wasnt toying with him the whole time. Defintely not on the rooftop. Even if he was he had a broken leg and had bandaged wounds from fighting Hoods men. He also was mentally broken down. Yes im afraid it means a whole lot.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

same goes for logan who was barrel rolling through his attacks in instead of using his full potential in a combat situation.

thats different Wolverine was holding back Daken wasn't.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

same with spiderman, Pun not being killed by a punch from the spider doesnt mean he has enhanced durability just that spideman held back significantly..

No it doesnt you dont get to decide that Spiderman was holding back when theres no proof thats what he was doing. He also took a full force punch from Leetha who at least class 10 as well. I guess she was holding back as well. Enough with the excuses.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

punisher taking a full 10 ton punch is illogical for his powerset which is no powers..


Well Elektra isnt supposed to have any powers either. I guess i'll just have to ignore all the times shes displayed psionic abilities.

Furthermore its a comicbook sometimes humans can display superhuman like ability.

Punishers durability has been described as supernatural ie he doesnt have SSS but for some reason his durability is enhanced.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

i think punisher does have superior durability above ur average olympic lvl human perhaps peak durability but that isnt much...

and you dont know what you're talking about again. Captain America has impressive durability.

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
Realistically, unless the class 10 holds back, his punches should at the very least ko him, not to mention ruin his face and break a jaw.

Its a comicbook. facepalm I guess humans in the tekken universe shouldnt be able to jump off skyscrapers because its not realistic. Se how illogical that is

Originally posted by 753

He did have prep, he sought logan out after he had teamed up with an old school mobster to take out a derranged boss. He ambushed logan and then goaded him into following him only to hit him at every turn. At the end he was still gonna end up dead.

Lol seeking somebody out doesnt mean you have prep. Ambushing somebody doesnt mean you have prep.

Originally posted by 753

IIRC in that same story he blows logans face off with a shotgun and that barely slows him down, just to show the inconsistancy. Logan has tanked far worse like nothing, so I dont really see the point of claiming that is an average showing of his durabilty and damage soak. Would you even say simples blows like that would stun the punisher when you claim he can shrug off class 10 punches without pis? Logan has shrugged hulk blows off.

Thats completely illogical nobody is 100 percent consistent and I mean nobody. Spiderman can also take class 10 shots but can get stunned by trained humans does that mean every time he gets hurt and stunned by humans its PIS? Of course not and im sure hes taken more than class 10 shots.

Wolverine has been shown to be capable of being stunned by highly trained humans time and time again. Highky trained martial artists have shown time and time again they can use skill as a substitute for insane amounts of brute force.

Originally posted by 753

He has surprised DD with prep and traps, how would he magically disappear in plain view and then jump warren out of nowhere in a church? They start 6 meters apart, I dont see this turning into hide and go seek. so what if he is a trained marine? their world is a dime a dozen special forces units

He didn't disappear in plain sight he was hunting him over the city. My point is eventhough its not a city a church is still big enough for Punisher to sneak around and try and pounce. Angels perception is nowhere nears DDs.

*sigh* Punisher isn't a regular marine.



Originally posted by -Pr-
amazing how warren gets neutered just so the other guy can compete.

also, he's had his healing factor for about a decade now.

If you're talking about me it looks like you're putting words into my mouth.

Angel is well trained but hes not as well trained as the Punisher. So what if hes got a healing factor is it as good as Wolverines? If Punisher can hang with people who have a better HF than Angel. Angels Hf isnt a factor.

Is Angel harder to hit than Daredevil and Spiderman. Nope.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
If you're talking about me it looks like you're putting words into my mouth.

Angel is well trained but hes not as well trained as the Punisher. So what if hes got a healing factor is it as good as Wolverines? If Punisher can hang with people who have a better HF than Angel. Angels Hf isnt a factor.

Is Angel harder to hit than Daredevil and Spiderman. Nope.

i was talking about the thread maker, so no, not you.

and plus, it is a neutering if you take away his death form, which is a standard part of his powerset nowadays.

and in the air, he would be as hard to hit if not harder.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-


and in the air, he would be as hard to hit if not harder.

Ok but I think you'd have a hard time proving hes harder to hit.

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
Ok but I think you'd have a hard time proving hes harder to hit.

but neither daredevil nor spider-man can fly, so it's a bad comparison anyway.

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Its a comicbook. facepalm I guess humans in the tekken universe shouldnt be able to jump off skyscrapers because its not realistic. Se how illogical that is


Yes it is a comic book and when we discuss these things we go by logic and common sense that arent always present there. Punisher has been koed by a lot less blunt force than a class 10 can dish out. He has no superhuman durabilty or hf and yet he takes punches that can shatter concrete pillars like nothing without visible damage or a ko. I believe it is more rational to think spider-man was holding back some and the punisher does not really have class 10 durabilty.

Originally posted by Deadline
Lol seeking somebody out doesnt mean you have prep. Ambushing somebody doesnt mean you have prep.

ambushing someone does not require prep? okdok

Originally posted by Deadline

Thats completely illogical nobody is 100 percent consistent and I mean nobody. Spiderman can also take class 10 shots but can get stunned by trained humans does that mean every time he gets hurt and stunned by humans its PIS? Of course not and im sure hes taken more than class 10 shots.

Wolverine has been shown to be capable of being stunned by highly trained humans time and time again. Highky trained martial artists have shown time and time again they can use skill as a substitute for insane amounts of brute force.

That is precisely my point, their showings are all over the place but if we use their upper ones, they wouldnt be taken down like that. You are the one that stated the punisher's showings against wolverine prove he can incapacitate angel. They don't. Wolverine and angel have better showings than that. Although not all of them are pis, it's true, but punisher wasnt using pressure points or even particularly damaging attacks there.

Originally posted by Deadline
He didn't disappear in plain sight he was hunting him over the city. My point is eventhough its not a city a church is still big enough for Punisher to sneak around and try and pounce. Angels perception is nowhere nears DDs.

I know he didnt, and he wouldnt be able to, just like he wont be able to do it in the situtaion described in the op. Angel's perception is nowhere near DD's but he can see what is right in front of him.

Originally posted by Deadline
*sigh* Punisher isn't a regular marine.


Which is why bringing up the fact that he is a trained soldier isn't really an argument to begin with. It shows nothing.

the ninjak
Angel did have impressive strength showings in XForce Logan and Warpath could hardly hold him down when he was bedridden.

And that was with both their arms holding one of Warrens. Even though he has birdlike light bones his muscles must be tight as hell.

Plus his reflexes.

Deadline
Originally posted by -Pr-
but neither daredevil nor spider-man can fly, so it's a bad comparison anyway.

No its not a bad comparison because the skills you need to use against somebody backflipping around could be used against somebody who can fly. They are different but its not so different that you can't make a comparison.

Originally posted by 753
Yes it is a comic book and when we discuss these things we go by logic and common sense that arent always present there. Punisher has been koed by a lot less blunt force than a class 10 can dish out.

So has Spiderman.


Originally posted by 753

He has no superhuman durabilty or hf and yet he takes punches that can shatter concrete pillars like nothing without visible damage or a ko.

Um he does have a HF which pretty much reinforces my point that he has enhanced durability. His HF is much like Captain Americas, who also has impressive durability as well. His durabilty has also been descrbed as supernatural ( and I explained why its described as that, he has no enhancements but has the equivalent of enhanced durability)

Originally posted by 753

I believe it is more rational to think spider-man was holding back some and the punisher does not really have class 10 durabilty.

Except that he also got punched by Leetha who has at least class 10 strength and she was trying to kill him. Unless you want to argue that she was holding back as well. No its pretty unreasonable.

facepalm

Originally posted by 753

ambushing someone does not require prep? okdok



Because prep is going away and planning something over a relatively long period of time. You don't need to do that when you ambush somebody you can just sit and wait. In this thread Punisher can also ambush Angel by hiding in the church thats not really prep because hes making it up as he goes along. Which is what happened in that issue.

Originally posted by 753

That is precisely my point, their showings are all over the place but if we use their upper ones, they wouldnt be taken down like that. You are the one that stated the punisher's showings against wolverine prove he can incapacitate angel. They don't. Wolverine and angel have better showings than that. Although not all of them are pis, it's true, but punisher wasnt using pressure points or even particularly damaging attacks there.


Thats why its not a good point. You don't take the highier ones you take all their showings and you come to an average. Yes it pretty much does.

Originally posted by 753

I know he didnt, and he wouldnt be able to, just like he wont be able to do it in the situtaion described in the op. Angel's perception is nowhere near DD's but he can see what is right in front of him.

I see so if Punishers going to ambush Angels hes going to walk right up to him. Is that your point? So you're just going to ignore DDs senses...ok got it.


Originally posted by 753

Which is why bringing up the fact that he is a trained soldier isn't really an argument to begin with. It shows nothing.

No its a decent argument if you take it with everything ive said. Obvoulsy that training is going to help him alot and its helped him against people like Spiderman, Wolverine etc.

the ninjak
Rock on Deadline.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by 753
I believe it is more rational to think spider-man was holding back some and the punisher does not really have class 10 durabilty. http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8530/holdingback1punisherann.th.jpg
(Punisher Annual 1 2009)
He says that to the Punisher.

EDIT: Spider-man usually holds back against everyone except very powerful villains.

753
Originally posted by Deadline

Um he does have a HF which pretty much reinforces my point that he has enhanced durability. His HF is much like Captain Americas, who also has impressive durability as well. His durabilty has also been descrbed as supernatural ( and I explained why its described as that, he has no enhancements but has the equivalent of enhanced durability)

no hf, no superhuman durability, peak human only. Supernatural? wut?

Originally posted by Deadline

Except that he also got punched by Leetha who has at least class 10 strength and she was trying to kill him. Unless you want to argue that she was holding back as well. No its pretty unreasonable.

facepalm

faceplam all you want, look at what class 10 punches do in normal circunstamces, then look at what has wounded and koed the punisher in the past. punisher's capacity to push through the pain and injuries is very impressive, but with no hf, he should be koed at least by class 10 blows.

Originally posted by Deadline

Because prep is going away and planning something over a relatively long period of time. You don't need to do that when you ambush somebody you can just sit and wait. In this thread Punisher can also ambush Angel by hiding in the church thats not really prep because hes making it up as he goes along. Which is what happened in that issue.


prep is setting things up in advance, like setting a trap to ambush others, how long it takes has nothing to do with the concept itself. He did not make it up as he went along, although he obviously had to adapt to the situtaions as they arose, but he hunted logan down, was carrying a big bag of weapons and clearly had a battle plan from the beggining: he goaded wolverine into following him and then dished out his surprises, hitting and running. The sequence of weapons he uses on him shows a plan too.

Originally posted by Deadline

Thats why its not a good point. You don't take the highier ones you take all their showings and you come to an average. Yes it pretty much does.

IMO it doesnt, it's pointless to debate this any further.

Originally posted by Deadline
I see so if Punishers going to ambush Angels hes going to walk right up to him. Is that your point? So you're just going to ignore DDs senses...ok got it.

This, I'm relly puzzled about, what don't you get about what I'm saying? He WON'T ambush angel, because he CAN'T disappear in plain sight and they start 6 meters (20 ft) apart.

DD's sense are better but Angel can still see what is front of him as, once again, THEY BEGIN THE FIGHT 6 METERS APART IN FRONT OF EACH OTHER. punisher was hiding beforehand when dealing with DD

Originally posted by Deadline

No its a decent argument if you take it with everything ive said. Obvoulsy that training is going to help him alot and its helped him against people like Spiderman, Wolverine etc.

Obviously it's because of training that he does what he does, but his military background proves nothing about his skill levels themselves.

753
Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8530/holdingback1punisherann.th.jpg
(Punisher Annual 1 2009)
He says that to the Punisher.

EDIT: Spider-man usually holds back against everyone except very powerful villains.

yup, and punisher looked like a rag doll in his hands when SM claimed to stop holding back. even then SM was being mind controlled in that story

Deadline
Originally posted by Parmaniac
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8530/holdingback1punisherann.th.jpg
(Punisher Annual 1 2009)
He says that to the Punisher.

EDIT: Spider-man usually holds back against everyone except very powerful villains.

How dare you! Im the only one on here allowed to back up Punisher, thats my job. mad

Actually im pissed I missed that. Yup that pretty much clinches it.

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
yup, and punisher looked like a rag doll in his hands when SM claimed to stop holding back. even then SM was being mind controlled in that story

He was holding back and hadn't slept for weeks. I like how you ignored the point he was making.

Wild Shadow
that isnt the 1st time punisher has bn verbally pawned and told he wasnt in the same league as the actual superhumans...

wolverine said he was a joke and nothing to what he fights regularly iirc..

daredevil has told him repeatedly when kicking his butt that he has gotten tired of punisher and he would do the world a favor if he was willing to kill him..

again they hold back against him and at times dont take him seriously which in turn makes it look like frank can legitimately compete with them which he cant.

Daken said it best about him catching a tiger by the tail... everyone in the comic world knows where frank stands against them.. no chance at all unless he has one sided prep.

753
Originally posted by Deadline
He was holding back and hadn't slept for weeks. I like how you ignored the point he was making.

you logic is so fuzzy. so punisher was holding back? otherwise he wouldve beaten spider-man? do you recall what he looked like in that fight?

753
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
that isnt the 1st time punisher has verbally pawned and told he wasnt in the same league as the actual superhuman's...

wolverine said he was a joke and nothing to what he fights iirc..

daredevil has told him repeatedly when kicking his butt that he has gotten tired of punisher and he would do the world a favor if he was willing to kill him..

again they hold back against him and at times dont take him seriously which in turn makes it look like frank can legitimately compete with them which he cant.

Daken said it best about him catching a tiger by the tail... everyone in the comic world knows where frank stands against them.. no chance at all unless he has one sided prep.

pretty much, yes

Deadline
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
that isnt the 1st time punisher has verbally pawned and told he wasnt in the same league as the actual superhuman's...

The only problem is that you just ignored the fact that I already told you Punisher was holding back and he hadn't slept for weeks.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

wolverine said he was a joke and nothing to what he fights iirc..

So what? Wolverine would beat most street levelers in h2h because of his enhancements.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

daredevil has told him repeatedly when kicking his butt that he has gotten tired of punisher and he would do the world a favor if he was willing to kill him..

Except Punisher has done well in most of their fights if you bother to read them all and he also holds back.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

again they hold back against him and at times dont take him seriously which in turn makes it look like frank can legitimately compete with them which he cant.

Punisher hold back as well.

Originally posted by Wild Shadow

Daken said it best about him catching a tiger by the tail... everyone in the comic world knows where frank stands against them.. no chance at all unless he has one sided prep.

Everybody? What you mean people like you who dont read enough Punisherand consistently acts like he knows what hes talking about when he doesn't?

Again Punisher had a broken leg and was already wounded. Daken wasn't holding back and was furious.


Originally posted by Deadline
Punisher vs. Daken

Punisher is already wounded after fighting the Hoods men the previous night and has a broken leg.
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/374/punihservsdakenpart11.th.jpghttp://img36.imageshack.us/img36/176/punishervsdakenpart12.th.jpghttp://img97.imageshack.us/img97/7200/punishervsdakenpart13.th.jpghttp://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7644/punishervsdakenpart14.th.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/5323/punishervsdakenpart15.th.jpghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4258/punishervsdakenpart21.th.jpghttp://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3703/punishervsdakenpart22.th.jpghttp://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3569/punishervsdakenpart23.th.jpg

Well its all downhill from here and you know what happens….

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
you logic is so fuzzy. so punisher was holding back? otherwise he wouldve beaten spider-man? do you recall what he looked like in that fight?

No my logic is fine your problem is you dont listen, here you go.

http://www.imagebam.com/image/7cadc250845560/

He also had to find a way of breaking his mindcontrol without killing him if you bothered to read it.m

I already told you he handt slept in weeks as well.

the ninjak
Punisher tore Daken apart while fighting him in the name of continuing his crusade. But Daken took chunks out of him as well.
And Frank only needed his teeth and a knife.
And still managed to escape to higher ground.
But Daken had a high level healing factor so he didn't care.
And still took major wounds.

Warren wouldn't be nowhere near as brutal on Frank.
Frank escaped Sentry!
And he would surely have counter measures all over the church just like he did in that factory.
That's how Ronins think!
Always have an escape route.
And Warren is a pretty passive combatant if remaining in his form.

753
Originally posted by the ninjak
Punisher tore Daken apart while fighting him in the name of continuing his crusade. But Daken took chunks out of him as well.
And Frank only needed his teeth and a knife.
And still managed to escape to higher ground.
But Daken had a high level healing factor so he didn't care.
And still took major wounds.

Warren wouldn't be nowhere near as brutal on Frank.
Frank escaped Sentry!
And he would surely have counter measures all over the church just like he did in that factory.
That's how Ronins think!
Always have an escape route.
And Warren is a pretty passive combatant if remaining in his form.

daken is an underachiever who fought like a pussy, cowering in pain because his lip got bitten off? pfft

angel will be ruthless if he needs to be, he doesnt need to go for melee and flight is too much of an advantage.

Deadline
Originally posted by the ninjak
Punisher tore Daken apart while fighting him in the name of continuing his crusade. But Daken took chunks out of him as well.
And Frank only needed his teeth and a knife.
And still managed to escape to higher ground.
But Daken had a high level healing factor so he didn't care.
And still took major wounds.

Thats not entirely true he did have a laser gun and used an explosive at some point but this was the state he was in before the fight.

Originally posted by Deadline


Everbody knows that Punisher fought Daken and lost, but this was the condition he was in before they fought. He had bleeding bandaged wounds and had a broken leg.
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/4305/predaken1.th.jpghttp://img412.imageshack.us/img412/9093/predaken2copy.th.jpghttp://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3691/predaken3.th.jpg




Originally posted by 753
daken is an underachiever who fought like a pussy, cowering in pain because his lip got bitten off? pfft



Now you're trolling. People dont behave the way you wnat them to so they're ****** now.

This pretty much sums up your argument:

Any good showings of Punisher = PIS or character holding back.

No he isnt hes beaten Wolverine and held his own against Cyber etc.

Parmaniac
Originally posted by the ninjak
And he would surely have counter measures all over the church just like he did in that factory. He gets no prep.

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Thats not entirely true he did have a laser gun and used an explosive at some point but this was the state he was in before the fight.






Now you're trolling. People dont behave the way you wnat them to so they're ****** now.

This pretty much sums up your argument:

Any good showings of Punisher = PIS or character holding back.

No he isnt hes beaten Wolverine and held his own against Cyber etc.

not really, surviving and planting that bomb were good showings for the punisher that are just his thing: excelent improvisation and toughness. daken getting stunned because of a minor wound when he has a healing factor like that is him being a pussy, he was shocked by the attack, he tanked gunfire in the same fight

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
not really, surviving and planting that bomb were good showings for the punisher that are just his thing: excelent improvisation and toughness.

Yes but lets ignore the h2h right. The broken leg and the wounds.

Originally posted by 753

daken getting stunned because of a minor wound when he has a healing factor like that is him being a pussy, he was shocked by the attack, he tanked gunfire in the same fight

You are nitpicking and making excuses. Im pretty sure Daken has been stunned by punches as well....oh I guess thats all bad writing. Just ebcauswe you can take one sort of damage doesnt mean you cant get affcet by the another. WW can take class 100 punches but still be killed by bullets.

the ninjak
Originally posted by Parmaniac
He gets no prep.

Fair enough.....sooo out of character so it's a chance encounter.
He was in terrible shape when he took on Daken and HAMMER. And still managed a brief getaway. He was just severely outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong Angel should be able to overwhelm any man with peak human attributes with such a limited arsenal but Frank will go for the jugular to get out of getting caught.

This is starting to feel like spite for Frank. An enclosed building maybe two doors. No sewer access. Just a knife and crowbar. The whole two scenario situation is useless because Frank is hitting those pews and waiting and crawling around until Warren takes this upclose and Frank is gonna be a wild animal in a tight spot when the fight starts.

Deadline
Originally posted by the ninjak
t.

This is starting to feel like spite for Frank.

You serious? edit: Oops my bad I get your meaning.

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Yes but lets ignore the h2h right. The broken leg and the wounds.

You are nitpicking and making excuses. Im pretty sure Daken has been stunned by punches as well....oh I guess thats all bad writing.

the toughness I mentioned covers just exactly that

puh-lease, he takes a bullet and walks it off, he gest his pretty face bitten and has to stop an attack an kill over? it's not even bad writing, it's in character behavior: daken is a pussy. do you really think that would have worked on his father in the same exact situation? dont recall a punch stunning him

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
the toughness I mentioned covers just exactly that

puh-lease, he takes a bullet and walks it off, he gest his pretty face bitten and has to stop an attack an kill over? it's not even bad writing, it's in character behavior: daken is a pussy. do you really think that would have worked on his father in the same exact situation? dont recall a punch stunning him

He was also arguably stunned after getting punched in the eye and was clearly in alot of pain after getting stabbed in the neck.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3569/punishervsdakenpart23.jpg

Again nothing is 100 percent consistent all you are doing is nitpicking and looking for excuses. He wasn't even stunned for that long Punisher quickly followed it up, you're exaggerating.

753
Originally posted by the ninjak
Fair enough.....sooo out of character so it's a chance encounter.
He was in terrible shape when he took on Daken and HAMMER. And still managed a brief getaway. He was just severely outnumbered.

Don't get me wrong Angel should be able to overwhelm any man with peak human attributes with such a limited arsenal but Frank will go for the jugular to get out of getting caught.

This is starting to feel like spite for Frank. An enclosed building maybe two doors. No sewer access. Just a knife and crowbar. The whole two scenario situation is useless because Frank is hitting those pews and waiting and crawling around until Warren takes this upclose and Frank is gonna be a wild animal in a tight spot when the fight starts.

sigh...

753
Originally posted by Deadline
He was also arguably stunned after getting punched in the eye and was clearly in alot of pain after getting stabbed in the neck.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3569/punishervsdakenpart23.jpg

Again nothing is 100 percent consistent all you are doing is nitpicking and looking for excuses.

those wounds are believebly stunning, and he handled them better than his split lip

Deadline
Originally posted by 753
those wounds are believebly stunning, and he handled them better than his split lip

Um its not a split lip, he had a chunk of his lip bitten off.....that would be extremely painful and can arguably be more painful than being stabbed (depends). I think getting your lip bitten off is arguably more pianful than being punched in the eye.

Wild Shadow
Daken is not his father his pain tolerance is significantly less then wolverine's and i would say even Frank... its a personality trait just like 753 said.

i will admit frank did pretty good and was impressive with his adaptability improvisation against daken who whas just toying with him or he would have simply disappeared on frank with his speed and pheromones and one shotted him for the kill.... or removed his hands b4 frank knew what was going on.

the ninjak
Originally posted by 753
sigh...

I agree it's bedtime.

His healing factor means Warren can go in for a take down if he sees that Frank doesn't have a gun....which is odd.

With knife in hand Frank will use his public knowledge of him usually having guns as a sort of advantage to stage an escape.

But if Warren goes in for a melee takedown those wings will be more handy than Logan's claws.

A few sweeps of those wings could smack Frank across the face and knock him out!

I've just always based Warren's healing ability on how the loss of his wings would mean total loss. XForce brought them back due to his Archangel state.

It depends on two things considering the environment-
1- Frank uses tight surroundings to get to Warren upclose to due real harm = Frank wins.

2- Frank only manages 2 metre or further fighting distance to which Warren smacks him out! = Warren wins

Goodnight.

Deadline
Originally posted by Wild Shadow
Daken is not his father his pain tolerance is significantly less then wolverine's and i would say even Frank... its a personality trait just like 753 said.

i will admit frank did pretty good as was impressive with his adaptability improvisation against daken who whas just toying with him or he would have simply disappeared on frank with his speed and pheromones and one shotted him for the kill.... or removed his hands b4 frank knew what was going on.

He doesnt always disapear, He doesnt always use his pheremones and if doesnt that doesnt mean hes toying. When you got blown up, get your lip bitten off and shot, you don't toy with your opponent your start taking them serioulsy. It pretty much looked like he was.

753
Originally posted by Deadline
Um its not a split lip, he had a chunk of his lip bitten off.....that would be extremely painful and can arguably be more painful than being stabbed (depends). I think getting your lip bitten off is arguably more pianful than being punched in the eye.

punisher shoved his thumb inside daken's eye, stab wounds cause physiological shock and are psicologically more traumatizing for normal people, daken is a vain candy ass

-Pr-
Originally posted by Deadline
No its not a bad comparison because the skills you need to use against somebody backflipping around could be used against somebody who can fly. They are different but its not so different that you can't make a comparison.

that's why i said a bad comparison, which it is, as Warren would have more distance than Spidey or Matt would.

Trackz
Originally posted by -Pr-
that's why i said a bad comparison, which it is, as Warren would have more distance than Spidey or Matt would. maybe outdoors, they're in a church

Original Smurph
Predicting where a gymnast's body is going to move would be easier than predicting where a flying man is going to move, I would think, since one falls far easier prey to gravity. Just my two cents.

Trackz
Originally posted by Original Smurph
Predicting where a gymnast's body is going to move would be easier than predicting where a flying man is going to move, I would think, since one falls far easier prey to gravity. Just my two cents. maybe easier than daredevil, but surely spiderman would be much more agile in the air than angel. Maybe if angel could fly independently, but since he uses wings, i think it becomes a lot easier to tell where he's going to move

StiltmanFTW
Punisher.

tkitna
I see a knife in Warrens throat when the fights on the ground.

In the air, Warren for a large majority, but i'll give Frank 1 out of 10 just for the heck of it.

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