Was Yoda really THAT powerful?

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john allerdyce
i understand that yoda was regarded as one of the most powerful jedi to ever exist, but he still had some 900 years to get to that level.... guys like Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Sidious(?), etc. were able to reach that level of power (or at least come very close to it) in much less time (decades as opposed to centuries.) So it stands to reason that if they had the same amount of time to train, they 'should' have greatly exceeded yoda, no?

think about it.

Q99
I think at some point most people level off in their force growth. Yoda reached his peak long ago, and Palpatine likewise hasn't improved much in awhile. They can learn more tricks but their raw omph doesn't change.

Amazing Vrayo!!
Originally posted by Q99
I think at some point most people level off in their force growth. Yoda reached his peak long ago, and Palpatine likewise hasn't improved much in awhile. They can learn more tricks but their raw omph doesn't change. Anything to back that up with or is that just a guess?

truejedi
As far as the subtetly of the force, I think Yoda knew more about the force than anyone till perhaps DE sidious. It most likely wasn't all combat oriented though.

I like to think of him as a sage, who had a wealth of knowledge that died with him, never to be recovered.

If you are just talking combat though: "The greatest foe the darkness had ever known" says it all.

john allerdyce
i'm not disputing whether or not he was the best. it just seems that with 900 or so years of training, guys with minimal training in comparison (like those i mentioned earlier) shouldn't even be in his league... yet some are/were.

truejedi
That is what i'm saying though, is when it came to the subtlties of the force, they weren't in his league (in my opinion, because this is a speculation sort of thread) I would imagine the majority of his knowledge had very little to do with combat.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by john allerdyce
i'm not disputing whether or not he was the best. it just seems that with 900 or so years of training, guys with minimal training in comparison (like those i mentioned earlier) shouldn't even be in his league... yet some are/were. That is something of a folly with Star Wars. Yoda had a b*tchin' midichlorian count, going by Obi-Wan's comment. His potential was amazing, and had almost nine centuries of experience under his belt. I can understand people like Luke and Yoda with their "Chosen" powers and such, or Palpatine with his total immersion in to the Dark Side, being better than Yoda. But 900 years and you got humans like Mace and Dooku being on near-tiers to him. I guess Yoda's species has a slower rate of learning and mental/physical/Force advancement. Altogether.

john allerdyce
Originally posted by truejedi
That is what i'm saying though, is when it came to the subtlties of the force, they weren't in his league (in my opinion, because this is a speculation sort of thread) I would imagine the majority of his knowledge had very little to do with combat. true. but after 900 years, yoda's general force-powers and skills with a saber should have still been leagues above anyone else; he should have been completely untouchable. having said that, the fact that a few beings were either yoda's confirmed equal, or borderline his equal, despite having a fraction of his training seems kind of.... poor on his part. especially since his midichlorian count was supposedly the highest in the order (aside from Anakin.)

it also seems kind of strange that in 900 years yoda didn't even begin to fathom force-immortality. yet qui-gon was able to figure it out in his lifetime... and even went on to teach yoda himself this skill.

Q99
Originally posted by Amazing Vrayo!!
Anything to back that up with or is that just a guess?

Educated guess.

There's plenty of really old force users but it doesn't ultimately seem to make them unstoppable uber, it just seems to let them reach their max. T'ra Saa's centuries herself but not one of the top fighters among masters.

Considering how big a deal potential is, as shown with Anakin and such, I'd guess that maximum power is largely something you're born with, and outside of cheats like sith artifacts or drawing on outside sources, you learn to get up to that max and then just get more refined with it.

Or maybe it does still increase, but very slowly- it'd be funny if Yoda was a very weak Jedi 700 years ago, a reasonably powerful one 200 years ago, etc.. Easy to increase at first but increasingly difficult with time.

K-Dog
I would say that it is like most things--natural talent is important and with training there is the law of diminishing returns. Two thoughts on his natural ability in relation to his small stature:
1. Perhaps miticlorian concentration is more important, but total body count is somewhat important too (a bigger person has more total)
2. With lightsaber dueling, he may have to be extra skilled due to his small stature and he may have to use more of his force potential to amplify his striking strength to match a full grown 200 lb-ish person, so it takes overall more force-manipulation to do the same amount of work.

Qui-gon was pretty awesome--he let the force guide him on missions with a ton of confidence and Obi-wan mentioned that he would have been on the Jedi council if not for his attitude. In hindsight, I believe Qui-gon was seeing things that the counsel was not due to Sith-clouding. Perhaps Qui-gon is more force-sensitive/knowledgable than we give him credit for.

SithAce_1
When anakin had all his limbs was his mediclohrian higher or lower due to the lose of them? I think he lost some cus his body was baddly wrecked and no longer more powerful than the Emporer potentionally.

truejedi
Midichlorians are a per cell thing. Anakin never lost his potential to be more powerful than Sidious in the force, a potential he never achieved, but with his broken body, his phsyical combat ability was forever crippled.

truejedi
And also, yes, Yoda becomes QGJ's apprentice after the end of ROTS, so that is saying something for QGJ.

Autokrat
Yoda, being afraid of power (despite using it to impose his conservative views on the Jedi) probably limits himself in the sense that he doesn't pull out out the big guns unless he has too.

Besides, he may have a lot of knowledge but the retarded little sock puppet is the exact opposite of wise. I'm thinking the 900 year lag is simply because he's an idiot.

truejedi
citation needed for the idiot comment.

Autokrat
Originally posted by truejedi
citation needed for the idiot comment.

His dialogue.

EDIT - And his complete oblivion to the shit hitting the fan and just about everything else.

Ms.Marvel
its no secret that just about everyone in the star wars universe is borderline retarded. the jedi order just exemplifies it.

truejedi
very true he had about lost his mind in TESB.

Before that? He doesn't seem too oblivious. He was in the middle of it, being manipulated, yes, but in the middle of it.

Autokrat
Originally posted by truejedi
very true he had about lost his mind in TESB.

Before that? He doesn't seem too oblivious. He was in the middle of it, being manipulated, yes, but in the middle of it.

He was too stupid to realize Anakin was on the brink, which is pretty stupid.

I mean I'm sure GL intended for Yoda to seem wise and knowledgeable, but GL doesn't have the writing creds to pull it off.

truejedi
thats true. To be honest, he did see that Anakin shouldn't be trained, which kinda took care of it big picture, if QGJ had listened to him.

Lord Lucien
Yoda knew Anakin shouldn't be trained, so way to go for him. But then Obi-Wan said "I implore you to reconsider." So Yoda said: "OK."

Re.Tard.Ed.

truejedi
Actually, Kenobi didn't leave any choice. Yoda should have stabbed anakin in the head right then. THAT would have changed the feel of The Phantom Menace I think.

Nephthys
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ujws_star-wars-clone-wars-chapter-23-par_shortfilms Starts at 1.10.

Yeah he's..... pretty powerful.

Edit: Of course you need to look at it through the Clone Wars filter, but still, Damn.

Autokrat
Originally posted by Nephthys
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ujws_star-wars-clone-wars-chapter-23-par_shortfilms Starts at 1.10.

Yeah he's..... pretty powerful.

Man, that power sure would have been handy when shit hit the fan.

Nephthys
Damn straight. I think he was just holding back so Sidious didn't feel bad.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Nephthys
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ujws_star-wars-clone-wars-chapter-23-par_shortfilms Starts at 1.10.

Yeah he's..... pretty powerful.

Edit: Of course you need to look at it through the Clone Wars filter, but still, Damn.

LOL if Yoda and Mace were really at their CW power levels, there wouldn't be any need for a clone army. Either would solo the CIS.

Nephthys
Still Canon though. smurph

truejedi
it is canon.

Autokrat
I think its a prime of example of how characters' abilities will fluctuate based on the needs of the plot.

Galan007
Hm, just noticed this... Yoda's bio from The New Essential Guide To Characters states that he didn't even become a Jedi Master until he was 100 years old:
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7371/yodabio1.jpg
(underlined in red)

That seems like an awful long time. srsly

Pwned
But then there is the fact that Yoda also mastered every form of lighsaber combat and Ataru to its highest peak(i think.... any confirmation?)

Vorpal Ruin
Everyone has a limit. I hope you guys don't think that more age = more power. You really think Mace Windu would have been 9 times stronger had he been 9 times older? No. Would he have gotten better? Probably.

Anakin4Ever
Maybe Yoda's skill advancement is akin to a dog's. A dog lives shorter than a human, so he ages more quickly. If Yoda, lives longer, then he doesn't age as quickly and his skill doesn't advance as quickly. Simple, you silly little hobknockers.

Lord Lucien
I'd go with that reason. Though Odan-Urr had no excuse whatsoever.

Uriel005
If you read star wars fluff Yoda was strong from a relatively young age. Also by the time the clone wars rolled around he was already walking with a cane and coming to the end of his lifecycle. I would equate him to the old Shaolin monks very skilled and able to absolutely crush you through technique but still ultimately very frail and if someone who is still close to their prime and skilled enough to avoid the treachery of old age they will prevail. Additionally some say that Yoda had time to learn enough tricks to be unbeatable remember the jedi order is relatively stagnant for fear of falling to the darkside as such experimentation with the force is generally not done. Also just because Yoda has a nearly a millennium of tricks up his sleeve does not mean they are useful in a one on one fight.

Allankles
Originally posted by john allerdyce
i understand that yoda was regarded as one of the most powerful jedi to ever exist, but he still had some 900 years to get to that level.... guys like Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Sidious(?), etc. were able to reach that level of power (or at least come very close to it) in much less time (decades as opposed to centuries.) So it stands to reason that if they had the same amount of time to train, they 'should' have greatly exceeded yoda, no?

think about it.

I think people overthink power levels. For the purpose of the plot Yoda and the other Jedi were retarded; not seeing Palapatine for what he was, not seeing how the Clone Wars was systematically destroying their order - so in a sense the plot should have been stronger to prevent this.

The same applies to Yoda not crushing everyone. I also think/guess a mortal body will have a power limit, maybe based on midichlorians? Yoda had perhaps reached his peak power levels in his first century of life, maybe.

A question: would anyone expect Luke to become more powerful than he is in the legacy series? I don't expect him to get any more powerful, probably peaked around the Vong war. So if Luke's peaked at the half century mark, maybe Yoda peaked around the same age, based on his midichlorian potential.

Vorpal Ruin
Originally posted by Allankles
A question: would anyone expect Luke to become more powerful than he is in the legacy series?

More powerful? Maybe not. More versatile with more refined tecnique and new abilities? Yes.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't expect him to get any more powerful, probably peaked around the Vong war. So if Luke's peaked at the half century mark, maybe Yoda peaked around the same age, based on his midichlorian potential.

I don't see why this would make sense.

Allankles
Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
I don't see why this would make sense.

It appears that midichlorians also play a part on the rate of a force users power increase. They offer an explanation to how Luke was strong enough to best Vader (albeit a restrained Vader) after less than half a decade of serious training in the Jedi arts. I don't see why Yoda (as a bipedal, apparently carbon based life form, long-lived or otherwise) would have a slower rate of power increase, given his midichlorian count was second only to Anakin by the PT era.

As you said yourself, his subtlety and his techniques (in combat or other disciplines) would increase with the centuries but not his raw power. It's a better way to reconcile his current power level to his age imo, than assuming he had to take centuries to peak because his species are slow learners.

If midichlorian count determines the speed a force user gains power as well as the overall amount of power the can gain then Yoda is more likely to have gained power quickly, but because of the of the finite nature of his mortal body, leveled off earlier in his life.

Galan007
^ Dooku stated that if Yoda were to embrace the dark side, he would unleash power sufficient to "annihilate" Palpatine. So yeah, he obviously hadn't reached the pinnacle of his power, as there was still, apparently, a lot more to be gained.

Gideon
Galan007
^ Dooku stated that if Yoda were to embrace the dark side, he would unleash power sufficient to "annihilate" Palpatine. So yeah, he obviously hadn't reached the pinnacle of his power, as there was still, apparently, a lot more to be gained.

That's pretty much the case with any Jedi/Sith comparison, though.

Galan007
Originally posted by Gideon
That's pretty much the case with any Jedi/Sith comparison, though. True. But if you are able to gain more power by converting from Jedi to Sith (or vice versa) then you haven't reached your peak of achievable power. ie. Yoda could have become more powerful than he was by crossing over to the dark side -- he simply chose not to. An increase in personal power isn't something a Jedi strives for.

That's all I'ze saying. smile

Gideon
Galan007
True. But if you are able to gain more power by converting from Jedi to Sith (or vice versa) then you haven't reached your peak of achievable power. That's all I'ze saying.

I suppose it depends on what you're arguing. Someone could argue that he reached his "Jedi potential" (i.e. mastered the scope of the Jedi's powers), but since it is historically the slower route, you might have ended this thread with your insightful post.

You've served me well, my apprentice.

Galan007
Originally posted by Gideon
I suppose it depends on what you're arguing. Someone could argue that he reached his "Jedi potential" (i.e. mastered the scope of the Jedi's powers), but since it is historically the slower route, you might have ended this thread with your insightful post.

You've served me well, my apprentice. If "Jedi potential" is what was mentioned, I would've certainly agreed. However, a blanket statement/opinion was made that Yoda had reached his peak power levels earlier in life, thus making it impossible for him to become more powerful as he grew older.

Dat iznt da case doh. wink

Eminence
*tho

It matters, fvcker.

Galan007
I hate you. none

Nephthys
Marek?

Galan007
Yeah, Galen unlocked a great deal more power when he converted from the dark to the light... Guess it just depends on the individual. Though historically, it's usually when a Jedi converts to a Sith that they become more powerful (and by quite a margin.)

SwordOfTheJedi
What about Revan? Not sure if his defeating Malak at the end of KOTOR proved he became more powerful in the light, because he was always better than Malak. But he still seemed to become more powerful based on the storyline. And didn't Malak admit as much?

And the whole memory loss thing makes it a special case.

Gideon
N
Marek?

U R GAY cuz he wasnt a sith so i win u luze

Nephthys
You said Jedi/Sith, not Jedi to Sith. There's a difference asshat. One's straight as **** and the other goes both ways.

Gideon
THATS HOW I MEANT IT SO YOU SUCK!

Lord Lucien
Didn't Revan do the same?

SwordOfTheJedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Didn't Revan do the same?

ahem *cough cough*


SwordOfTheJedi
What about Revan? Not sure if his defeating Malak at the end of KOTOR proved he became more powerful in the light, because he was always better than Malak. But he still seemed to become more powerful based on the storyline. And didn't Malak admit as much?

And the whole memory loss thing makes it a special case.

Lord Lucien
What are you implying? That I skipped your post? Cuz that'd be lame.

whistle

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Galan007
Hm, just noticed this... Yoda's bio from The New Essential Guide To Characters states that he didn't even become a Jedi Master until he was 100 years old:
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/7371/yodabio1.jpg
(underlined in red)

That seems like an awful long time. srsly

I read that too, but the kicker seems to be the fact that Yoda didn't learn of his force sensitivity until he was older (old enough to be seeking employment).

Allankles
Originally posted by Galan007
^ Dooku stated that if Yoda were to embrace the dark side, he would unleash power sufficient to "annihilate" Palpatine. So yeah, he obviously hadn't reached the pinnacle of his power, as there was still, apparently, a lot more to be gained.

So I guess Yoda hadn't reached his max potential then, brings back to mind one of his 1st lines in SW "wars not make one great".

Allankles
Originally posted by SwordOfTheJedi
What about Revan? Not sure if his defeating Malak at the end of KOTOR proved he became more powerful in the light, because he was always better than Malak. But he still seemed to become more powerful based on the storyline. And didn't Malak admit as much?

And the whole memory loss thing makes it a special case.

Don't know about Revan for sure, but Galen Marek doesn't count, he's a Gary Stu. no

Master_Galen
If Galen Marek is a Gary Stu then so too is Revan, they are both video game characters after all. Their power / strength levels are both determined by the gamer and are based on game mechanics.

Yoda IS that powerful, he fought Sidious to a stalemate, which i believe works more in Yoda's favor taking into account his age and small stature.

Q99
Originally posted by Galan007
Dooku stated that if Yoda were to embrace the dark side, he would unleash power sufficient to "annihilate" Palpatine. So yeah, he obviously hadn't reached the pinnacle of his power, as there was still, apparently, a lot more to be gained.

If Dooku was right. Dooku might be figuring he gained a big boost, so Yoda would too, not figuring on how much Yoda had achieved sticking to the light.




Also Cade has sorta done both. Early on he started drawing on more potential by going dark, allowing him to pull his 'raise dead' trick in the first place, but to rescue Blue in one of the recent issues he could only get enough strength into the healing power by focusing on the light side.

Galan007
Originally posted by Q99
If Dooku was right. Dooku might be figuring he gained a big boost, so Yoda would too, not figuring on how much Yoda had achieved sticking to the light. I don't really understand this..?

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't really understand this..?

What i think he is trying to say is that Yoda has been in the light side of the force for almost 900 years and has mastered at least most of the 'recognised as' light side force abilities so that if he did turn to the dark side he would lose some of these abilities as they are dark side so may not interact well when converted to the dark side.

Hope that helps.

Q99
Originally posted by Master_Galen
What i think he is trying to say is that Yoda has been in the light side of the force for almost 900 years and has mastered at least most of the 'recognised as' light side force abilities so that if he did turn to the dark side he would lose some of these abilities as they are dark side so may not interact well when converted to the dark side.

Hope that helps.

Basically yea.

Dooku made the assumption that the dark side would let anyone bring out more power, but Yoda's already figured out how to get to his max with just lightside techniques. So it wouldn't help out.

Jinsoku Takai
The dark side of the Force doesn't grant more "raw power" per say, it merely allows the user to utilize dark side techniques (techniques that Jedi at the time fear would lead them to the dark side, i.e. Force Crush, Force Lightning, and extreme aggression). Some Jedi are able to use these techniques w/out falling to the dark side, hence making them extremely formidable opponents.

My understanding is that this is also the case w/ many NJO Jedi. Since they don't necessarily understand the Force in terms of a light side and a dark side, they might use techniques that in the past would be considered "dark side only".

Moreover, if Yoda were to turn to the "dark side", he would be free to utilize techniques such as Force Crush and Force Lightning. This would make him a considerely more dangerous opponent for anyone to face (sans someone like Mace Windu). Can you imagine a pissed of Yoda Force frying someone, or maybe using the Force to rip them apart like a wet piece of bread?

Lord Lucien
The Dark Side's not just an access to techniques. Yoda said that in in ESB that it's the easier path to power and strength. It allows a shortcut to more "raw energy" that Jedi have to spend years reaching through meditation and learning.

Galan007
Originally posted by Q99
Basically yea.

Dooku made the assumption that the dark side would let anyone bring out more power, but Yoda's already figured out how to get to his max with just lightside techniques. So it wouldn't help out. If the dark side wouldn't have enabled Yoda to unlock more power, then I doubt Stewart (the writer of Dark Rendezvous) would have had Dooku mention such. *shrugs*

Lord Lucien
Yeah it's kind of accepted in Star Wars that Dark Side=quick and easy power.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Dark Side's not just an access to techniques. Yoda said that in in ESB that it's the easier path to power and strength. It allows a shortcut to more "raw energy" that Jedi have to spend years reaching through meditation and learning.

Why is that? If there's no fundamental difference between the light and the dark sides of the Force, how would the dark side offer access to more power?

truejedi
who told you there is no fundamental difference between the light side and dark side? You sound like the NJO, who found out they were wrong when their members started falling to the dark side...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
Why is that? If there's no fundamental difference between the light and the dark sides of the Force, how would the dark side offer access to more power? Where are you getting this "no fundamental difference" from? The NJO books fooled around with that from Vergere, and then whoops, look what happened to Jacen, Alema Rar, and Tahiri.

You make it sound as if the game mechanics from KotoR and the Jedi Knight series are canon.

ares834
I always hated that. The NJO did something diffrent, something that truly set them apart fom their Old Republic Conterparts and LOTF retconned it. Ugh, IMO NJO was far supeior to LotF, yet LotF tramples everthing NJO did, and it trampled Luke characterization at the same time. In my personal canon, SW ends after TUF.

truejedi
they had already figured out they were wrong about the force being fundamentally the same by TUF.

Jinsoku Takai
Meh! Fundamental misunderstanding on my part I suppose. My bad.

Nephthys
Actually I remember in the Dark Nest saga that they were still using the idea. Heck, Luke was sanctioning torture and Force Lightninging bitches at that point iirc. Then he decided that even if there was no concept of light and dark in the Force, there was in mankind and they went back to being actual Jedi. I think they may still think that actually.

Pyron_Knight
The Potentium idea is fascinating but non-existent. There is canonically a light and dark side to the Force and the dark side is powered by negative emotions.

It's still more interesting than the light though.

ares834
Yaeh we know that.
But Potentium=/=Unifying Force.

Lord Lucien
Potentium.

Unifying Force.

Living Force.

And Gray Jedi.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by ares834
But Potentium=/=Unifying Force.

No it isn't, they may sound alike but Potentium is just a twisted view of the force by a sect of force users who are just trying to make excuses for using dark side powers.

ares834
Hence why I said "=/=" the does not equal sign.

Master_Galen
Meh, no worries. What did you mean then?

ares834
That the Potentium and Unifying Force theories are different.

Uriel005
The dark side offers more options than the light side due to its lack of morals. For instance Cade Skywalker can use a force ability to bring the dead back to life. However this is considered to be an extremely dark sided ability as it draws on his negative emotions he only does so years later with a great deal more control and strength through the lightside.

IMO the darkside is more wild and less controlled. It is easier to learn because it is more instinctive and intuitive. The light side is more controlled and I think that 2 equivalent skills in the dark side and light side winds up with the light side having an advantage. The dark side may learn the skill first but unless given much more time the discipline of the light side makes the skill more refined when it is learned.

It's like comparing a raging drunk to the Shaolin monks. The Sith are powerful and tenacious but often lack the control to make use of their reduced inhibitions. Whereas the jedi are more reluctant to use that strength even in self defense.

Lord Lucien
Pretty much.

RE: Blaxican
I don't know. The opinion that I've formed after looking at the mythos is that the dark side is always more powerful than the lightside, early on and later on. The practitioners' personal skill aside, a darksider will always progress faster and maintain that lead.

If anything a darksider's biggest weakness is the philosophies and mindset that comes with embracing the darkside. Not the power itself.

Lord Lucien
That's what I prefer. Along with natural inclination to the Force, I prefer the "Dark is stronger, but Light is more disciplined". Disciplined per se. Mentally. Morally. Darkness is inherently self-destructive, therein lies its weakness.

Galan007
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
If anything a darksider's biggest weakness is the philosophies and mindset that comes with embracing the darkside. Not the power itself. Plus the fact that the dark side ages it's 'full-fledged' practitioners tremendously. Yoda noted as much when he saw Dooku during Dark Rendezvous: " looked old... much older than he had on Geonosis."

And the aforementioned fact couldn't have been more apparent during Dark Empire.

Q99
Note how Cade was able to use a better version of his healing power by turning to the light side, to do what the dark side version couldn't. Or how even with as uber as Palpatine was, both Yoda and Mace were able to fight on his level. Luke's probably the strongest force user of all time and reached his full potential, and he's Light.

It's max cap isn't lower just because it's not as easy, the lightsiders catch up.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Q99
Note how Cade was able to use a better version of his healing power by turning to the light side, to do what the dark side version couldn't. Or how even with as uber as Palpatine was, both Yoda and Mace were able to fight on his level. Luke's probably the strongest force user of all time and reached his full potential, and he's Light.

It's max cap isn't lower just because it's not as easy, the lightsiders catch up.

Yeah, i think that like Luke, Yoda has reached his full potential and he has managed that in just the light side. When your Yoda you don't need a shortcut to power, why would you if you have a lifespan of like 900 years.

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's what I prefer. Along with natural inclination to the Force, I prefer the "Dark is stronger, but Light is more disciplined". Disciplined per se. Mentally. Morally. Darkness is inherently self-destructive, therein lies its weakness.
i agree with this here.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Dark Side's not just an access to techniques. Yoda said that in in ESB that it's the easier path to power and strength. It allows a shortcut to more "raw energy" that Jedi have to spend years reaching through meditation and learning.

Actually I find it to be less of a raw power increase than a quicker progression rate. Dark jedi can learn to use force lightning essentially of the bat and people like Luke take years to learn it. The difference is in the control. The dark side methodology is wild and unrefined in the beginning and their uncontrollable desires and rage usually lead to the downfall of many Sith. Indeed it is because Sideous was outside the norm in that he plotted and had patience was quite different from most sith which IMO contributed more to his success than any amount of power he had. He was methodical and built up a web of deceit that most other sith don't bother with as at some point they usually stupidly bull rush into things when they think they've won and just expose themselves for that killing blow in the straight duel they always have to fight.

Zampanů
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Yeah, i think that like Luke, Yoda has reached his full potential and he has managed that in just the light side. When your Yoda you don't need a shortcut to power, why would you if you have a lifespan of like 900 years.
Dooku would disagree with you.

Q99

Gideon

Nephthys
He's also the one who thought Sidious was a kewl guy to trust. And once tried to bribe Yoda with womenz.

no expression

truejedi
ha, forgot that i guess, when did he try to bribe yoda with women?

Nephthys
In Dark Rendezous he tries to tempt Yoda with various things, one of which is 'you want womenz? Da Darkside can get you somes!'

Of course all Yoda wants is a flower.

no expression

I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions from that.

Lord Lucien
"Flower" can be Jedi-euphemism for pussy. But Yoda's got a whole temple-full of pussy already, so he needs no darksides.

Q99
Originally posted by Gideon
You say that as though Dooku knows what the hell he's talking about.

It's not like he's a respected or experienced Jedi/Sith, right?

no expression

right

He's reasonably so, but I *think* Yoda has a bit more experience.

Maybe.

Gideon
WELL UR WRONG

Master_Galen
Dooku isn't really that great, the man is an apprentice to somebody who is 20 years younger than himself. The year Palps was born was about the year Dooku was knighted, all that experience and he is still vastly inferior to Palps, in both the light and the dark side.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Dooku isn't really that great, the man is an apprentice to somebody who is 20 years younger than himself. The year Palps was born was about the year Dooku was knighted, all that experience and he is still vastly inferior to Palps, in both the light and the dark side. That's horrible reasoning.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's horrible reasoning.

Not really, that much experience for Dooku should mean something. He was according to Yoda the Jedi Order's best student, taught TK at the Order and recorded it in the Great Holocron and was on par with Mace and Yoda in saber combat. If by Dooku's own reasoning he got more powerful with the dark side he should really be at least on Yoda and Sidious's level, yet he was still inferior to Sidious, by his own admission.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Not really, that much experience for Dooku should mean something. He was according to Yoda the Jedi Order's best student, taught TK at the Order and recorded it in the Great Holocron and was on par with Mace and Yoda in saber combat. If by Dooku's own reasoning he got more powerful with the dark side he should really be at least on Yoda and Sidious's level, yet he was still inferior to Sidious, by his own admission. So you're complaining about Dooku's age not being equivalent to greater power, but you're not complaining about Yoda's age not being equivalent to greater power?

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
So you're complaining about Dooku's age not being equivalent to greater power, but you're not complaining about Yoda's age not being equivalent to greater power?

No, i am sayng that with age and experience then Dooku should theoretically be more powerful, especially taking into account Dooku's own logic concerning the dark side

Lord Lucien
And natural inclination and lifetime of Dark Side experience means no nevermind for Palpatine?

Master_Galen
Yeah, but what about a lifetime of lightside training plus at least a decade of darkside training for Dooku.

Lord Lucien
That means hard reversal for Dooku. He didn't fully immerse in to the Dark Side like Palpatine had been doing all his life. Not to mention again: natural inclination. Coleman Trebor doesn't have the same natural strength in the Force has Mace Windu. Nor does Kenobi to Anakin, or Dooku to Palpatine.

Master_Galen
Yes, i see your point and i understand it. However, by Dooku's own admission he has become stronger in the dark side, would you not take that to mean that his force abilites have improved from what they were in the light with the addition of new abilities learned from the dark side. So really he has had the best of both sides, light and dark, and has been taught by the best of both sides, Yoda and Sidious, yet he is still weaker than Sidious.

Hewhoknowsall
Sort of like how Revan was more powerful at the end of KOTOR as a Jedi than he was as a sith.

truejedi
I don't think he was. I think he was more powerful as a Sith. Malak didn't dare face him one on one as a Sith.

Master_Galen
Did Malak not say that Revan was stonger in the light than as a sith?

Q99
Originally posted by truejedi
I don't think he was. I think he was more powerful as a Sith. Malak didn't dare face him one on one as a Sith.

Malak was stronger than he was last time he met Sith Revan, and had force-users charging him up when he fought Jedi Revan.

So his willingness to fight Revan may have been a side-effect of his own growth.

Eminence
truejedi
I don't think he was.
Malak did.


Malak didn't.


You wanna know how he got those scars?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Yes, i see your point and i understand it. However, by Dooku's own admission he has become stronger in the dark side, would you not take that to mean that his force abilites have improved from what they were in the light with the addition of new abilities learned from the dark side. So really he has had the best of both sides, light and dark, and has been taught by the best of both sides, Yoda and Sidious, yet he is still weaker than Sidious. You're presuming that even as a Jedi, Dooku was already really close to Palpatine. He wasn't, by his own admission, not even when he turned Sith.

Q99
Originally posted by Eminence

You wanna know how he got those scars?

Didn't he cut himself shaving?

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're presuming that even as a Jedi, Dooku was already really close to Palpatine. He wasn't, by his own admission, not even when he turned Sith.

No, i am just presuming that based on Yoda's statement, about Dooku being the best student in the Jedi Order, that Dooku while not on Palps level while in the Order was at least one of the most powerful jedi in the Order. Then as Dooku said he only got more powerful in the dark side so that should really put him above all jedi and very close to if not stronger than Palps, yet Dooku admits he is still inferior to Palps.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
No, i am just presuming that based on Yoda's statement, about Dooku being the best student in the Jedi Order, that Dooku while not on Palps level while in the Order was at least one of the most powerful jedi in the Order. Then as Dooku said he only got more powerful in the dark side so that should really put him above all jedi and very close to if not stronger than Palps, yet Dooku admits he is still inferior to Palps. Kay, you're missing the part of the equation that is most important: Who said that Dooku was anywhere near Palpatine, ever? Who said that Palpatine was on par with any of the Order except for Yoda?

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Kay, you're missing the part of the equation that is most important: Who said that Dooku was anywhere near Palpatine, ever? Who said that Palpatine was on par with any of the Order except for Yoda?

You are missing my point entirely, i never said either of those things, what i was and am saying is that it is known that Dooku was one of the strongest jedi in the Order before he left, factor in a decade of training in the dark pide plus the fact that Dooku has himself said he is more powerful means that logically, or at least my logic, Dooku should now be elevated above all jedi, which Palps is.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
You are missing my point entirely, i never said either of those things, what i was and am saying is that it is known that Dooku was one of the strongest jedi in the Order before he left, factor in a decade of training in the dark pide plus the fact that Dooku has himself said he is more powerful means that logically, or at least my logic, Dooku should now be elevated above all jedi, which Palps is. You're looking at this like one would a videogame. It's not about "level" or "rank." It's not about one guy thinking one thing ergo, these additional factors=this.

Dooku was one of the best, ever. Turning to the Dark Side he gained power. But not enough to topple Yoda or Palpatine. They're just naturally better, that's all there is to it.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You're looking at this like one would a videogame. It's not about "level" or "rank." It's not about one guy thinking one thing ergo, these additional factors=this.

Dooku was one of the best, ever. Turning to the Dark Side he gained power. But enough to topple Yoda or Palpatine. They're just naturally better, that's all there is to it.

Naturally, Anakin is better, stronger and more attuned to the Force than everybody, that did not mean he could beat them.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Naturally, Anakin is stronger tah everybody, that did not mean he could beat them. No, naturally, Anakin has the potential to beat everybody.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, naturally, Anakin has the potential to beat everybody.

Yeah okay, but in his final duel with Dooku, by tapping into his rage Anakin was able to overcome Dooku where he could not win before.

Would that count as Anakin tapping into his raw Force potental(?) or not?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Yeah okay, but in his final duel with Dooku, by tapping into his rage Anakin was able to overcome Dooku where he could not win before.

Would that count as Anakin tapping into his raw Forcepotental(?) or not? Yes, via a lucid access to his fury. He used the Dark "z0ne" Side to become stronger. ANd because he is naturally equipped to be better than everyone else, given enough time and training he will be.

Dooku's got a limit beneath Anakin and Palpatine and Yoda. He could only go so far.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yes, via a lucid access to his fury. He used the Dark "z0ne" Side to become stronger. ANd because he is naturally equipped to be better than everyone else, given enough time and training he will be.

Dooku's got a limit beneath Anakin and Palpatine and Yoda. He could only go so far.

Using your logic it is my opinion, not yours but my own, that this makes Dooku even more overated. The reason being that Dooku has said he is more powerful than any Jedi, yet he is not if Yoda is naturally better, which i do agree with.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Master_Galen
Using your logic it is my opinion, not yours but my own, that this makes Dooku even more overated. The reason being that Dooku has said he is more powerful than any Jedi, yet he is not if Yoda is naturally better, which i do agree with. Dooku can butter himself up like a piece of delicious toast all he wants but in the end it's just his personal opinion of himself, not the words of an omniscient narrator.

Uriel005
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, naturally, Anakin has the potential to beat everybody.

Actually no... The only thing that is stated about Anakin in the prophecy was that he would bring balance to the force and be essentially born of the force. Power had nothing to do with it... All that can be said is that he was the most powerful on record for the jedi order and thus should have had the most power at the time of the fall of the jedi order.

Additionally many argue that when he fought Luke he was nowhere near his full potential. I agree with this but I must say that Luke must have been at the very least his equal if not more so. Lucas himself stated that Luke was what Vader would have been had be been on the light side. I take that to mean power as well. Additionally despite Vader not being whole he had years of experience on Luke who had less training than most padawans as he had only had experience for maybe a few years over the storyline as a jedi and even then his teachers were limited in what they were able to pass on. So I say that Anakin is not some godlike being of the force with more potential than anyone. Just someone with the most potential of his day and of what had been ecorded.

Master_Galen
Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually no... The only thing that is stated about Anakin in the prophecy was that he would bring balance to the force and be essentially born of the force. Power had nothing to do with it... All that can be said is that he was the most powerful on record for the jedi order and thus should have had the most power at the time of the fall of the jedi order.

What a contradictory statement.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Uriel005
Actually no... The only thing that is stated about Anakin in the prophecy was that he would bring balance to the force and be essentially born of the force. Power had nothing to do with it... All that can be said is that he was the most powerful on record for the jedi order and thus should have had the most power at the time of the fall of the jedi order. Lucas has said that Anakin, having achieved full potential, would be the most powerful Force-user, ever. It's canon.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Additionally many argue that when he fought Luke he was nowhere near his full potential. He wasn't anywhere near his full potential. In fact he was about 2.5x away from being his full potential.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I agree with this but I must say that Luke must have been at the very least his equal if not more so. Lucas himself stated that Luke was what Vader would have been had be been on the light side.We weren't talking about Luke.

Originally posted by Uriel005
I take that to mean power as well. Additionally despite Vader not being whole he had years of experience on Luke who had less training than most padawans as he had only had experience for maybe a few years over the storyline as a jedi and even then his teachers were limited in what they were able to pass on. Kay we weren't even talking about Luke.

Originally posted by Uriel005
So I say that Anakin is not some godlike being of the force with more potential than anyone. Just someone with the most potential of his day and of what had been ecorded. Uh, George Lucas, supreme commander of G-canon, or George-canon, says you're wrong.

Jinsoku Takai
Originally posted by Uriel005
Just someone with the most potential of his day and of what had been ecorded.

What's an ecord/e-cord? Is it like email and ebooks?

Shoes
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Lucas has said that Anakin, having achieved full potential, would be the most powerful Force-user, ever. It's canon.


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
potential


Originally posted by Lord Lucien
potential


He had the potential.

Everyone inherently has some potential to do anything. I have the potential to transcend time and space. Will I ever reach said potential?

lulno

If GL didn't comment on his chances of reaching said potential, then that staement is somewhat irrelevant, no?

truejedi
You do not have the potential to transcend time and space.

Zampanů
Originally posted by truejedi
You do not have the potential to transcend time and space. I've really been struggling to be concise lately.

Eminence
truejedi
You do not have the potential to transcend time and space.
laughing

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Shoes If GL didn't comment on his chances of reaching said potential, then that staement is somewhat irrelevant, no? I bolded the key words that would have made Anakin a nobody. As it is...

ADarksideJedi
For Yoda to become who he is.It must had taken alot of trainning so I think when he first started he was challage until he learn the way of the force and became very good with his trainning.Who knows maybe he is like Vador and has alot of those Jedi things in his body.

Lord Lucien
Riiiight...

truejedi
he tried. Be nice.

Lord Lucien
I think he is a she. And I think she's a noob.

Slash_KMC
A noob who has been here for 2 and half years longer than you.

Interesting.

truejedi
more posts too. that means he isn't really a noob...

Shoes
She

homo

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
A noob who has been here for 2 and half years longer than you.

Interesting. Shaddup with you semantics.

Uriel005
Originally posted by truejedi
You do not have the potential to transcend time and space.

There is the possibility for anything to happen regardless of how small the chances are... For instance there is the possibility pigs will spontaneously sprout wings and will overcome the weight to lift ratios needed for flight tomorrow.
Infinitely low but still there also I was using Luke as an example that Vader wasn't 100% guaranteed to be force guru of omnipotence. If he was destined to be the most powerful force user ever then you have to throw out 90 percent of the cannon books. If he would have been 2.5x stronger as you said at peak potential then People like Katarn still would have stood up to him and in NJO Luke became absurdly powerful beyond all reasoning of anything I would put in a book to be fair to villains. Ok I exaggerate on the army thing.

I mean Katarn fights Vong elite and gets pwned by one. He was definitely 2x as powerful as Luke during Vader era. Luke fights entire army of them and most powerful Vong leader while being poisoned...

Also as far as force beings go the Abeloth was definitely Vader's superior in strength as well as Jacen Solo who was causing force psychosis through time. Jacen at least was definitely weaker than Luke. The Aboleth maybe. She was dealing with a lot when she and Luke fought.

Point is not to make Luke take Vader's place as force god but just to point out that just because at the time you are most powerful does not mean that it is always the case.

truejedi
believe it was Kyp who fought the Vong elite and barely beat one, right?

Zampanů
Black Hole of Links (Warning: TV Tropes)
Another link

Uriel005
Originally posted by truejedi
believe it was Kyp who fought the Vong elite and barely beat one, right?
Yeah your right it was kyp. My brain was fried last night sorry if it caused any confusion.

ADarksideJedi
I am a she and I been here for a very long time so I know what I am talking about.

truejedi
of course.

Lord Lucien
Suuure.

Slash_KMC
No doubt about it.

Zampanů
boy howdy

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