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Comic Book Martial Artist Hierarchy

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists)
Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke (GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty (GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, "Mad Dog" Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sage, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists)
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel

Read Me:

~Criteria~

1. The hierarchy is based on martial arts skill in armed or unarmed close combat. The operative word is skill. This does not mean someone in a lower tier cannot compete or even defeat a character in a higher tier, but considerations should only be made towards showings of skill in their appearances.
2. PIS and CIP should not be taken into consideration. CIS (i.e. characters that are intended to be highly skilled but are never depicted to that extent because of the character's inherent stupidity), may be considered depending on the character, but will be dealt with on an individual basis.
3. The tiers are defined by who is in them. There will necessarily be "low" and "high" characters within a tier, but the idea is to place a character as close to their peers as possible.

~The Top Tier~

1. The Top Tier distinguishes those who can claim title to being among "The Greatest Martial Artists" on their respective Earth, and as such is limited in number.
2. The Top Tier are characters above ~90th percentile of the total hierarchy top tier and under, i.e. Martial Artists of skill equal to or greater than 90% of their peers.
3. There are currently 18 Top Tier slots divided as follows: Marvel (8), DC (8), Independent/Other (2). This is subject to change as the list grows.

~Proposing and Making Changes~

1. Discussion should take place before a change is made. Any proposed change should have the support of at least 2-3 people before any change is made.
2. Changes will be made based on the consensus i.e. a majority vote. Anyone can propose a change and make a case for it - however once the case is made then leave the outcome to the vote. If you can't get support for a proposed change, let it drop unless new material arises to make a new case.
3. The above also applies to new additions to the rankings.
4. If you are casting a vote or proposing a change, please explicitly state as such, so that no one has to guess your intentions.

So...

I decided to recreate this thread, with actual defined rules/criteria for determining placement.

Since the other seemed largely derailed and without structure since the last time I read through it...

But here is a link to the previous thread for reference.

I'll keep track of the votes as I did previously.

Hope that's alright Digi.

I should have also noted that in general a two-vote majority should be sustained before an official change is made or proposed change is discarded.

These were the proposed changes and votes the last time I was tracking them, but others can be added as necessary.

Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Jubilee to third 2 / 3
Kingpin to second: 5 / 7
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 5
Midnighter to second: 2 / 1
Blade to second: 3 / 2

good thread

Shiva should be higher.

Starfire should be on the same level as Donna Troy, and personally I'd put them both at Master. They both have extremely martial backgrounds and would spar on good terms (with Kory having the slight edge in their Titan days even).

Wonder Woman should be top, she spars with both Batman and Black Canary, who speak very highly of her skill.

Zealot, she's the best of her world (and, like, 3,000 years old) and IMO top tier as well.

Constantine Drakon I'd bump down one level to second tier- he relies a lot on his superhuman speed. He overpowered his best foes more than outfought them. He's very good but in his appearances it looked like his physical attributes was the big tipping factor.



Shiva's fine. If you bumped her, you'd have to bump Cass, Dragon, probably Elektra... quite a few on that tier are her equals, and some are arguably a bit better.


---

Overall it's a very good list.

All duly noted.

I wouldn't see Shiva move any higher than her current peers in the top tier.

For either Diana or Zealot to move up, someone would need to move down - remember the top tier has a number limit.

I'm presuming you're suggesting Drakon. So I would suggest you proposed a one or the other for now.

Also it would be good if people gave a vote or opinion on some of the already listed proposed changes as well.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
All duly noted.

I wouldn't see Shiva move any higher than her current peers in the top tier.

For either Diana or Zealot to move up, someone would need to move down - remember the top tier has a number limit.

I'm presuming you're suggesting Drakon. So I would suggest you proposed a one or the other for now.

Also it would be good if people gave a vote or opinion on some of the already listed proposed changes as well.

I'd move Drakon down and Diana up.



Zealot's vying for those indy slots anyway... I'd bet she's better than Storm Shadow ^^

(Too bad probably no-one around here knows Gold Digger, or Julia Diggers'd have a nice slot. But I'm not likely to do a respect thread any time soon)

Darkseid and orion should be 2nd or top tier

Orion should be higher (Uber Tier). He was trained by and bested the "greatest martial artist" in the DCU.

Aquaman should be higher he has been shown training the elite guards of Atlantis and performing moves that exceed the level you put him.

Ares Marvel should be higher.

Ares DC has knowledge of every fighting style ever.

Hercules should be higher. He is master of at least one fighting style (greco roman wrestling)

Two Face is a trained martial artist.

Merlyn DC is not a master martial artist, maybe highly skilled.

Mister Terrific has black belts on 6 or 7 different martial arts.

Starfire and Tarantula i think should be higher.

Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell and Thanos should be lower

I forgot Kanto.

He WTF owned Artemis in the past and he is a master assasin with hundreds of years of experience.

Also where would Achiles rank?

In comics, skill in the Martial Artists allow a character to preform feats that would otherwise be outside the parameters of their attributes. That is a comic book staple. So I guess I need to ask, what has Thanos or Captain Mar-Vell, ever done skill-wise that affords them such high places on this list? Have either of them ever fought anyone completely out of their league and only manged to hold them off or damage them because of their skills as fighters? I don't think they have. Obviously, they have a much higher powerset than someone like Batman, but relative to there respective attributes, have either of them ever done anything half as impressive as Batman's best feats of skill? Thanos is on this list because he trained Gamora largely off panel (and don't even get me started on her position on this list)... is that really all that needs to have done to secure a position in the Uber Tier?

Thanos, Captain Mar-Vell, Adam Warlock and Gamora should all be lowered.

Could people be a bit more explicit about their proposed changes, i.e. instead of saying someone should be higher or lower, state where you think they should be.

I've only noted the explicit proposals in the proposed changes below for now.

(Also it should be noted, while I compiled this hierarchy, the characters are not where "I put them" but rather where they were placed by the consensus opinion.)

I don't remember the argumentation behind Thanos et al. being placed at their positions. But I do somewhat concur with srank.

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /

Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 2 / 3
Kingpin to second: 5 / 7
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 5
Midnighter to second: 2 / 1
Blade to second: 3 / 2
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 /
Orion to uber tier: 1 /

Aquaman 3rd tier

Ares Marvel 2nd tier

Ares DC 2nd tier

Hercules 2nd tier

Two Face 4th tier

Merlyn DC 3rd tier

Mister Terrific 2nd tier

Kanto 2nd tier

I'm against Blade and Midnighter moving up. Minighter was completely destroyed by a peak human with Jujutsu training when his enhancements were turned off, and Blade has been similarly embraced in swordsmanship.

I'm also against Drakon being switched with Diana, especially when the argument is that Drakon's speed is offsetting his skill. Seriously? More so than Wonder Woman's speed or strength? Seriously?

Drake should be second tier at the very least.

Originally posted by TheTyrant
Shiva should be higher. higher than Ironfist? Lol GTFO, be gald she's in the same league as him, if there was a rating between Greatest and Unearthly he would be in it. She wouldn't as he is the highest in that Greatest catagory.

Also, to the OP, what puts Daredevil a whole tier above Black Panther (T'challa - whos been trained since birth)? Captain America isnt even a whole tier above him , they are very much considered combat piers. Whats the reasoning please?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In comics, skill in the Martial Artists allow a character to preform feats that would otherwise be outside the parameters of their attributes. That is a comic book staple. So I guess I need to ask, what has Thanos or Captain Mar-Vell, ever done skill-wise that affords them such high places on this list? Have either of them ever fought anyone completely out of their league and only manged to hold them off or damage them because of their skills as fighters? I don't think they have. Obviously, they have a much higher powerset than someone like Batman, but relative to there respective attributes, have either of them ever done anything half as impressive as Batman's best feats of skill? Thanos is on this list because he trained Gamora largely off panel (and don't even get me started on her position on this list)... is that really all that needs to have done to secure a position in the Uber Tier?

Thanos, Captain Mar-Vell, Adam Warlock and Gamora should all be lowered.

I agree with this

Thats not the updated version of the table if you want to make new changes start with this one, but theres already another thread for that.

Current Hierarchy

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists)
Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot, Blade, Punisher, Moon Knight

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, "Mad Dog" Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sage, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio, Cyclops

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists)
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel

Originally posted by Deadline
Thats not the updated version of the table if you want to make new changes start with this one, but theres already another thread for that I'm using the one from the last time I managed that thread.

As it's the last time I know that movements were instituted with an objective facilitator.

I read through the previous thread and no longer believe that this was the case, as it appears that certain changes were railroaded through on slim majorities without adequate time. Additionally, the opinions of "ancient" posters, like myself, were disregarded despite still being perfectly valid opinions.

Ergo, I created a thread with clear purpose and structure.

I'm also generally going to abstain from voting on any changes myself.

You're free to propose changes though.

Originally posted by Juk3n
higher than Ironfist? Lol GTFO, be gald she's in the same league as him, if there was a rating between Greatest and Unearthly he would be in it. She wouldn't as he is the highest in that Greatest catagory.

Also, to the OP, what puts Daredevil a whole tier above Black Panther (T'challa - whos been trained since birth)? Captain America isnt even a whole tier above him , they are very much considered combat piers. Whats the reasoning please? To reiterate, I didn't put people anywhere per se. These placings were the consensus the last time I was tracking them.

As to whether Black Panther should move up, he would need to displace one of those currently in the top tier.

Being a top tier martial artist is meaningless unless there is an element of exclusivity to the top tier, ergo the limitation on the number within.

Oh, someone else who needs to bumped up without a doubt- "Mad Dog" Cain. He has move reading ala Batgirl, and he outclassed all but one of the assassins present (including Shrike IV (Boone) who's currently third tier) pretty badly and was able to fight with Cassandra.

Alpha should be bumped up too. He and Mad Dog were Shiva's two best students when she was training the League of Assassins, as Cassandra noted.

Both are second tier worthy. Better than the third-tiers present, but not quite a match for the first tiers when they were in good shape.



Probably second tier but not a lot of feats at this point.



I am agreed to this. Gamora can be bumped down to Uber tier- she's very good and could fight with the ones at the top, but a lot more enhanced than KK and Mantis.

Thanos, Mar-Vell, and Adam could be bumped down all the way to second tier. I don't think that sans powers they could beat the top tier ones, though they are very good.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

I'm also against Drakon being switched with Diana, especially when the argument is that Drakon's speed is offsetting his skill. Seriously? More so than Wonder Woman's speed or strength? Seriously?


Yes, because Wonder Woman fights without her powers against Batman and Black Canary often, as well as others (Batman was pissed when she brought Lady Shiva to the Watchtower for practice ^^). She can turn them off to train and does so regularly.


The Connor hallway standoff is a good example with Drakon- when he was in a position where his opponent had room to react to his speed, Connor got him good even when Drakon recognized he was waiting for an opportunity. When Connor didn't have the room, he got wailed on. Constantine was all about speed but I think Connor showed more skill.

I don't see Nemesis on the list. I propose we add her to the same as Zealot.

Nemesis has less appearances, but they've been portrayed as equals in every fight, post Coda training, that I've witnessed. Charis holds no physical advantages over our favorite Kheran noblewoman and doesn't utilize an unfair weapon advantage. An argument could be made that Charis's empathy helps, but it'd be a fairly weak argument I'd say. Ultimately, I'm inclined to believe the women have equal skill. I've missed some of the more recent issues unfortunately, so those who disagree can feel free to present any contradictory events.

Nemesis to the Second Tier.

I feel like Hawkeye should move from Third to Second, but maybe I'm misjudging.

Tim Drake to second. His placement is a travesty, a travesty I say!!!

I'm not entirely clear as to why Mandarin and Temugin are placed above Iron Fist when they all have comparable feats, with Iron Fist having superior feats in some cases.

Originally posted by Original Smurph
I feel like Hawkeye should move from Third to Second, but maybe I'm misjudging.
He definitely deserves that more than Green Arrow does, who shouldn't be that high at all.

The only reason Ollie was put there at all in the first place was because he looked good against Deathstroke once, though it had more to with massive prep on his part. He also looked good against Red Hood, but since then has done nothing to deserve a Second-Tier Placement.

Hawkeye, meanwhile, has been getting more of a push in that area, especially with him running around as Ronin.


On another note, I'd also challenge placing Captain America and Wolverine in top-tier.

Originally posted by Q99
Yes, because Wonder Woman fights without her powers against Batman and Black Canary often, as well as others (Batman was pissed when she brought Lady Shiva to the Watchtower for practice ^^). She can turn them off to train and does so regularly.
A.)No, she can't and B.) no, she doesn't.

She holds back, yes, but that's not the same thing at all.

Starfire to second.

Originally posted by Konton
Kory defeats the entire island of Themyschera in a tournament. The queen states Kory rivals Diana in skill.

1. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=rm1vf4&s=5
2. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2rr6tsh&s=5
3. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dkx3pv&s=5
4. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=15ez1pj&s=5
5. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2iuxppj&s=5
6. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=16ibh1j&s=5
7. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zlumvn&s=5
8. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=24azla0&s=5
9. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wsry9k&s=5

Originally posted by Accel
On another note, I'd also challenge placing Captain America and Wolverine in top-tier.

Awwww shit, you done it now.

Seconded on bumping GA down and Hawkeye up. Clint's been doing more HtH recently and GA's good melee skills were a blip.

Originally posted by Accel
A.)No, she can't and B.) no, she doesn't.

She holds back, yes, but that's not the same thing at all.

If she uses human-level speed and human level strength and still gets wins, that's pretty much the same thing.

I'm not saying they're not skilled, but it strikes me as double-standard that the two of them make the top-tier list while Deathstroke sits in the 2nd tier.

As far as physical stats go, I'd put Cap and Wolverine around Slade's level, i.e., above guys like Batman and Daredevil. The thing is though, when Slade looks good against an A-List martial artist, it's chalked up to his physical superiority. When Cap or Wolvie do the same, somehow their physical stats are left out of the equation and it's a complete skill showing.

At most, I'd say Cap and Wolvie would be at the bottom of the top-tier, but Slade probably belongs in the same ranking as those two.

edited

Black Panther (T'challa) to the same level as Cap and DD, if not, why not? And "only space for a limited amount" can take a flying leap, he's not 'just about' top tier 'on the bottom rung' he is equal to Matt and Steve period.

Originally posted by Q99
If she uses human-level speed and human level strength and still gets wins, that's pretty much the same thing.
If that were the case, you'd be right.

But she doesn't, so... oh well.

I'm guilty of this as well, but I just realized that we're all only tossing out suggestions. We'll have to contribute votes as well if changes will be made.

I am against Jubilee to third although I am open to the idea. I am against Kingpin, Midnighter, and Blade to second. I don't mind if Starfire moves up, but I don't know about a second tier placement.

I have no real opinion or remain undecided on the rest.

As per my last post, I propose we add Nemesis to second tier.

Originally posted by Accel
If that were the case, you'd be right.

But she doesn't, so... oh well.

Uh, she does. They pretty clearly fight at human level.



She was the chief combat trainer for the New Warriors recently. I think she's third nowadays.

Originally posted by Q99
Uh, she does. They pretty clearly fight at human level.

I guess you wouldn't mind citing some examples for me then?

Can I retract all my existing votes? I don't remember the reasoning for any of the votes I made- they were way long ago.

I did just suggest Hawkeye to second though, and that seems to be echoed, so I'm gonna write it down so far as:

Hawkeye to second: Smurph, Accel, Q99
Green Arrow to third: Accel, Q99

How old are those proposed changes any way? I can't even remember voting one way or the other for Kingpin but it looks like the "Against" side won decidedly.

If the rest of them are just as old as that then I say it's time to consider putting them to rest. If any one else cared enough to vote for them, they would have done it by now.

Originally posted by Accel
I guess you wouldn't mind citing some examples for me then?

Sure. Birds of Prey #68, Dinah vs Diana. Dinah comments inside her head while sparing that she might be able to do real damage with her cry, but then it'd be powers-on (mentally mentioning both strength and speed) and be knocked to Pluto. Black Canary also clearly respects Diana as her superior in skill and is somewhat disbelieving when she gets a hit in (again, with Dinah commenting in her head that there's no super-speed involved!).

When Wonder Woman spars, it's pretty obvious. Batman doesn't normally try chokeholds on super strong people, but says he'd try it against her in one of their matches (Tower of Babel), logically because it's powers off (though she rightly points out he wouldn't have the time to make it work anyway against her skill, but it hardly seem the kind of thing he'd try in a powers-on match).

Yeah, again that's holding back, but she can't simply turn off her vastly superior strength, speed, reflexes, yada, yada.

Her showings in sparring sessions against street-levelers are skewed because she always has a stat advantage over them.

Not to mention Black Canary still beat her in their sparring session.

Originally posted by Juk3n
edited

Black Panther (T'challa) to the same level as Cap and DD, if not, why not? And "only space for a limited amount" can take a flying leap, he's not 'just about' top tier 'on the bottom rung' he is equal to Matt and Steve period. Then suggest someone for Black Panther to replace... ermm

Originally posted by StyleTime
I'm guilty of this as well, but I just realized that we're all only tossing out suggestions. We'll have to contribute votes as well if changes will be made.Indeed.

Notes:
-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-comicfan11, I've noted all your proposed changes, however since you proposed quite a lot I will reserve them as the next round of changes.

-Smurph's old votes removed. My old vote removed. Accel would you like me to remove your old vote?

-If the two vote majority holds Jubilee's movement will be defeated, unless there are more votes in her favor.

-Thanos, Gamora, Mar-Vell and Hawkeye changes are new, so they should probably get a bit more time. However they're close to being a consensus opinion, imo. Green Arrow and Starfire are in a similar situation to an extent.

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /
Nemesis to second tier: 1

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 2 / 4
Kingpin to second: 5 / 6
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 4
Midnighter to second: 2 / 3
Blade to second: 3 / 4

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 / 2
Orion to uber tier: 1 /
Starfire to second: 2 / 0
Tim Drake to second: 1 /
Alpha to second: 1 /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1
Thanos to second: 3 / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 3 / 0
Gamora to uber: 3 / 0
Hawkeye to second: 3 / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 2 / 0

My vote for Kingpin can stay I guess. Never said any thing about Nemesis though.

Originally posted by Accel
My vote for Kingpin can stay I guess. Never said any thing about Nemesis though. Oops, got you mixed with StyleTime. Cos' you know your usernames look so similar...

I'm for the Thanos, captian Mar-vell, and Gamora move down also

Maybe 'Bump Constantine Down' and 'Bump Wonder Woman up' should be split up. There's more than one person who people want bumped to top tier after all.

I don't think Orion should be uber-tier. I mean, he may have some showings that suggest it, but most of the time he's not portrayed as a skill monster.

Originally posted by Accel
Yeah, again that's holding back, but she can't simply turn off her vastly superior strength, speed, reflexes, yada, yada.

What precisely is the difference between 'not using any superior speed, strength, reflexes, etc.' and turning them off? It feels to me like you're splitting hairs.

Diana said she wasn't holding back in skill in that fight, and Dinah noted she wasn't using powers at the same time.



You should also note it was a pure challenge to see if Dinah could get one hit in, with Diana just hanging on the defense, and Dinah still disbelieved the result at first. Even with powers off/totally held back Dinah felt she was the better fighter, and it took a lot of effort for her to get that one shot. So they aren't that far in ability.



Hm... let's go with another one. Diana recently had her powers turned off when thrown into another dimension. No powers, at all, not so much as her lasso. While there, she was able to hold the edge in combat with legendary warriors like Beowulf and Hrothgar.

Originally posted by Accel
Yeah, again that's holding back, but she can't simply turn off her vastly superior strength, speed, reflexes, yada, yada.

Her showings in sparring sessions against street-levelers are skewed because she always has a stat advantage over them.

Not to mention Black Canary still beat her in their sparring session.

Diana was upgraded (in a sense) by Circe to be able to completely shut down her powers whenever she takes the WW mantle off. She always powers down when she goes into Diana Prince mode and in her sparring match with Canary she was in street clothes.

I vote for Blade to be moved to master martial artist. I also am wondering why Silver Samurai is ranked so high. Is this weapons or H2H skills? What has he done H2H?

Originally posted by Q99
Maybe 'Bump Constantine Down' and 'Bump Wonder Woman up' should be split up. There's more than one person who people want bumped to top tier after all. Well I set the top tier limitation, both in this and the original thread because really when you have an unrestricted top tier in something like skill, it devalues the meaning of being at the pinnacle.

When everybody is special, nobody is.

It's set at 90th percentile, i.e. everyone in the top tier should be roughly equal or better than everybody top tier or below.

The top tier will expand as the list expands, it is nearing the point where an additional slot will open for a Marvel character and a DC character.

-----

On an aside I want to propose adding Cinderella and Boy Blue from Fables to the list somewhere.

Originally posted by Konton
Diana was upgraded (in a sense) by Circe to be able to completely shut down her powers whenever she takes the WW mantle off. She always powers down when she goes into Diana Prince mode and in her sparring match with Canary she was in street clothes.
Canary also mentions that Diana is holding back her strength and speed, and that her Canary Cry might damage WW (as opposed to doing some major damage or KOing her)

I doubt she'd think about any of that if WW was powerless in that scene.

She throws a punch but doesn't channel her divine might into it (as Dinah *said she didn't*). She takes a step but doesn't send the nerve signals that trigger the speed of Hermes. Think of her powers like additional muscles- she can send the signals to use those, or she can not. That seems to be consistent with how it works, just like some super speedsters don't perceive fast constantly and have to kick it in.

Durability is the only one of those that is constant-on.



And I understand you have a problem with the mechanics, but it's still self-evident that she did.



Not going all out all the way down to human level and never going above 'em during the entire course of the fight.



A speed and strength edge that is not used in a fight might as well not exist in that fight.



Well, Beowulf's one of the greatest warriors in history. Take from that what you will.

Originally posted by Accel
Canary also mentions that Diana is holding back her strength and speed,

Canary mentioned she wasn't using her super strength and speed. What more do you need?

Against Mar-vell moving down, against Gamora moving down (lol), against the Wonder Woman move, against Orion (lol), and ya, that should be all.

For Gamora, against Orion, against Tim Drake, for Jubilee.

And yet, Dinah and Bruce both treat it like fair fights, and Wonder Woman does too. She is very much the type not to cheat, and she said it was a fair test. What's preventing her from going at precisely human level, and not going above that once if she desires to? Sure, she can amp it up, but it'd be out of character for her to do so (as for the perception thing: Even Flash moves in and out of super perception and only kicks in when something really fast happens or he wants to. There's no sign she's in hyper-speed perception all the time either).

Wonder Woman *knows* how fast a human moves, and how fast she moves as a human (having been depowered at times).


Plus when depowered, she fight at or above the level of legendary heroes, and when powered, she beats even extremely experienced and skilled similarly powered fighters like Barda in hand to hand.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I vote for Blade to be moved to master martial artist. I also am wondering why Silver Samurai is ranked so high. Is this weapons or H2H skills? What has he done H2H? Armed martial arts can be considered.

----

I'm not sure whether skill in unarmed martial arts may take a slight precedent though. That's up to the discretion of the consensus.

-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-Thanos, Gamora, Mar-Vell and Hawkeye changes are new, so they should probably get a bit more time. However they're close to being a consensus opinion, imo. Green Arrow and Starfire are in a similar situation to an extent. But I'll make some sort of "Last call" before modifications are made.

-I'm proposing adding three characters from Fables: Cinderella, Boy Blue and Prince Charming, into the Fourth Tier purely to get them on the list. They may deserve higher placings.

-Just noticed Big Barda should probably be on here somewhere as well. Suggestions on placement?

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 / 4
Kingpin to second: 5 / 6
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 4
Midnighter to second: 2 / 3
Blade to second: 4 / 4

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 / 3
Orion to uber tier: 1 / 3
Starfire to second: 2 / 0
Tim Drake to second: 1 / 1
Alpha to second: 1 /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 /
Thanos to second: 4 / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 4 / 1
Gamora to uber: 4 / 1
Hawkeye to second: 3 / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 2 / 0

Also, since you seemed to miss it with your last response...

Originally posted by Q99
She throws a punch but doesn't channel her divine might into it (as Dinah *said she didn't*). She takes a step but doesn't send the nerve signals that trigger the speed of Hermes. Think of her powers like additional muscles- she can send the signals to use those, or she can not. That seems to be consistent with how it works, just like some super speedsters don't perceive fast constantly and have to kick it in.

...I'm still waiting for evidence on this. I don't want it to be conveniently forgotten.

Against Gamora, for all your Fables placements (thought I reckon at least Cindy should be higher)

Against Gamora

Clint to 2nd tier

Originally posted by Accel
A powered Superman can fight Wonder Woman in H2H as well.

Superman = Top-Tier?

In the hand to hand section of the Sacrifice fight, she pretty clearly was doing better than him despite being out-powered.

Heck, it's shown she can take most of the justice league at once in hand to hand when blindfolded.

When it comes to powered fighting there aren't many people with skill fights as good as hers.



That's just a possibly explanation on how it'd work that's consistant with what's shown.

She pretty visibly is fighting at human level.



Diana's non-powered speed.


Anyway, it's pretty clear you aren't budging, so I'm for moving on to discuss other martial artists.

Originally posted by Accel
But to someone who can block multiple bullets, a punch or a kick coming from someone like Black Canary would be moving in slow motion. So how do you negate that factor?

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batbulletblock.jpg

haw-som

Originally posted by batdude123
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/batbulletblock.jpg

haw-som


Wait, did *Batman* just do the 'bullets and bracers' thing? How does that work?

*Grumbles to self about arguing on even though I just said I'd drop it*



You can't, she can and does, that's what I'm saying.



Only if they're being used. If they aren't being used then it doesn't matter if she has them.



But he was *using* his speed. He doesn't have to. He could move at human speed and take punches if he wanted to.

Flash moves at human speed and turns off his hyper-reaction all the time (and he'd likely go insane if he didn't). Hyper-speed perception is something most people in DC with super speed can just turn off in mundane life.

Originally posted by Q99
Wait, did *Batman* just do the 'bullets and bracers' thing? How does that work?

Because he's the God damn Batman.

Also, lulz @ the idea of Wonder Woman "turning off her powers" when sparring with Batman and the like.

Originally posted by Q99
Anyway, it's pretty clear you aren't budging
It's pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about.

I think you've both made your points and it's likely best to leave that move to the vote now.

An update on the votes for changes.

-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-Hawkeye and Thanos to second appears to have a strong consensus behind it. Unless there's a major change in the votes these moves will be implemented in the next update.

-Mar-Vell, Green Arrow and Starfire changes are close to being a consensus opinion, either unopposed or a reasonable majority. But I'll make some sort of "Last call" before modifications are made.

-Just noticed Big Barda should probably be on here somewhere as well. Suggestions on placement?

Proposed Additions
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 /
Cinderella, Boy Blue and Prince Charming to fourth (to begin): 2

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 / 4
Kingpin to second: 5 / 6
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 4
Midnighter to second: 2 / 3
Blade to second: 4 / 4

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 / 3
Orion to uber tier: 1 / 3
Starfire to second: 2 / 0
Tim Drake to second: 1 / 1
Alpha to second: 1 /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 /
Thanos to second: 4 / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 4 / 1
Gamora to uber: 4 / 2
Hawkeye to second: 4 / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 2 / 0

Big Barda above whatever tier orion is on

Originally posted by Gecko4lif
Big Barda above whatever tier orion is on
Nah. Orion > Barda.

Also count me in on the move Thanos to second initiative.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Nah. Orion > Barda.

Also count me in on the move Thanos to second initiative.
Barda > Orion in h2h

Originally posted by Accel
It's pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about.

There would literally be no point to the fights if it was as you said, yet Batman, Dinah, and Diana all treat them as if they're real challenges that either side could win.

Perhaps a better way to state my point is: "Does everyone who would know treat it as a real, serious contest of martial arts skills? Yes? Then it probably is."

Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP.

Originally posted by dmills
Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP.

How much of that is his chi powers, though?

Originally posted by dmills
Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP.

Ummm... no? Sure he is powerful and versatile, but in terms of technique and application of skill he is slightly below Daredevil (equal at the most generous), and Daredevil isn't the top dog in that tier.

To spark some debate: Who would people say is among the top dogs of the top tier?

And here's a topic: All the other Immortal Weapons.

Mostly second tiers?

Originally posted by Q99
To spark some debate: Who would people say is among the top dogs of the top tier?

And here's a topic: All the other Immortal Weapons.

Mostly second tiers?
I also like to put the characters from Wolverine manifest destine, but they dont have nearly enough showings. Now the immortal weapons some of which may have enough showings, other have far less. Fat Cobra one of the few that may have enough showings. Also some of them are really power driven fighters, not sure how much of that is actual skill.

Fat Cobra is easy second tier I believe, I am not sure he makes top tier. He does posses lots of experience and has demonstrated some great skill.

Originally posted by Q99
To spark some debate: Who would people say is among the top dogs of the top tier?

Cassie Cain, Elektra, Shiva, Dragon, and Shang Chi. Not in any order.
Order might be like Elektra/Shang -> Dragon/Cassie -> Shiva.


Big Barda should be in second tier at the moment. She's on Wonder Woman's level and always has been.

For Green Arrow to Third
For Tim Drake to Second
Against Starfire to Second. Third, maybe.
For Hawkeye to Second
Against "replacing" Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman.

I'd like to suggest moving Canary down to Second, too. Simone took great pains to suggest that Canary wasn't on Batman's level, and while she did get some training from Shiva and Cass, i don't think it's sufficient to put her in that bracket.

Also, cant seem to see Jason Todd on the list.

Jason Todd is currently listed as Red Hood. In the next update I might rename some of the characters so they're easier to find.

An update on the votes for changes.

-This is what I've managed to discern from the posts. If I've misinterpreted your intentions please let me know.

-Mar-Vell, Hawkeye, Green Arrow and Thanos changes appear to have a strong consensus behind them. Unless there's a major change in the votes these moves will be implemented in the next update.

-Orion and WW changes appear to have a strong consensus against them. Unless there's a major change in the votes these proposals will be defeated.

-The seconded additions will be introduced in the next update unless there is any opposition to their suggested placements.

-Regarding Starfire would the three who have voted on that change settle on a compromise move to third?

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 /
Big Barda to second tier: 2
Cinderella, Boy Blue and Prince Charming to fourth tier: 2

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 / 4
Kingpin to second: 5 / 6
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 4
Midnighter to second: 2 / 3
Blade to second: 4 / 4

New Proposed Changes
Replace Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman: 1 / 4
Orion to uber tier: 1 / 3
Starfire to second: 2 / 1
Tim Drake to second: 2 / 1
Alpha to second: 1 /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 /
Thanos to second: 5 / 0
Captain Mar-Vell to second: 4 / 1
Gamora to uber: 5 / 3
Hawkeye to second: 5 / 0
Green Arrow (Oliver) to third: 3 / 0
Black Canary to second: 1 /

Hey can someone give me a reason for Hawk eye to second tier? He very well could be I just wanted to here the reasoning

I'm fine with Kori being Third.

Originally posted by Accel
I'm not saying they're not skilled, but it strikes me as double-standard that the two of them make the top-tier list while Deathstroke sits in the 2nd tier.


I can see were you think this, but let me explain the differences. I though about this as well before, but it is not a double standard at all I will explain below.

Originally posted by Accel
far as physical stats go, I'd put Cap and Wolverine around Slade's level,
True.

Originally posted by Accel
e., above guys like Batman and Daredevil.
Here a major difference, between Marvel and DC, though they are closely related physically. DD in melee combat has an advantage that can help greatly closes the gap between him and physically superior individuals. He has the ability to senses weak points, attacks and see in 300 digree's. This help to greatly closes down the speed edge. Batman posses no such abilities, of superhuman nature. For even these human characters that Wolverine and Capt face still posses superhuman abilities which help to combat superior physical opponents.


Originally posted by Accel
thing is though, when Slade looks good against an A-List martial artist, it's chalked up to his physical superiority. When Cap or Wolvie do the same, somehow their physical stats are left out of the equation and it's a complete skill showing.

Because there mostly fighting characters within there physical abilities. DS is been stated, mention to be physically superior to batman, NW, batgirl even to the point of reasons why he so tough and so forth. You dont see opponents saying the same thing about capt and wolverine. They arnt chalking there advantages to physical ones, but to skill.

even look at who they face Deathstroke one of the few in DC at his level he faces human like tim drake, batman, green arrow, NW, batgirl ect.

Now Wolverine and Capt face guys like Taskmaster, Shang-chi, Iron Fist, Junzo, Ogun ect.


There not fighting guys physically inferior to them like DS. They have never shown asside from perhaps ennis writing to fight someone who human like batman and be unable to even walk after it. Or even get worked over by NW. This is because not not inferior in skill which is a main reason why deahstroke at times has such problem with bat family. They are physically inferior but if they can get him off balances they can maintain it through superior skill.

I mean if you want to say DS comparable you have to remember that Marvel guys are not fighting people inferior physically majority of the time when they faced skilled MA's like DS. They also never get worked like DS does.

good comparison is like Winter Soldier and NW. They are similar physically, skill wises, and though deathstroke has worked NW before he also had his handfill for a bit. This is not really the cases when Bucky or Winter Solider faught Wolverine or Capt. I mean wolverine choked buck out in 3 pannel and then when he fought winter solider who had bunch of onesided prep he still got best in there short altercation from a chained up wolverine. Then Capt fight with winter soldier he worked him.

Originally posted by Accel
most, I'd say Cap and Wolvie would be at the bottom of the top-tier, but Slade probably belongs in the same ranking as those two.
I would disagree greatly that there at the bottom. They are both repeatedly acknowledged as the best or at the very top of the tier by many hero's within marvel and them selfs.

You be greatly mistaken, the physical level of each opponents are not the same.

Deathstroke has fought people either equally or more physically powerful than him, though.

As well as that, he's fought Green Arrow level people two, three at a time and been successful.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot


-Mar-Vell, Hawkeye, Green Arrow and Thanos changes appear to have a strong consensus behind them. Unless there's a major change in the votes these moves will be implemented in the next update.


I have a problem with moving Hawkeye and this is my reasoning there are several characters within his very tier who are more skilled then he is or as skilled. Here is to name a few

People who are easily debatable as being nearly or more skilled are Black Knight, Mstigue, Yukio, sage, Shatter Star, US Agent


More skilled fighter

Blade, Midnighter,Psylocke, Punisher, Shadow Cat
Moon Knight,, Psylocke, Punisher, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Wild Child,

This is not even all of them, so I find it difficult to believe that Hawkeye should move up a rank when there are many as skilled and several more skilled and deserving.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Deathstroke has fought people either equally or more physically powerful than him, though.

As well as that, he's fought Green Arrow level people two, three at a time and been successful.
I know that was not really the point, I was trying to make. Deathstroke tends to fight MA who are physically inferior to him, which is acknowledge by them, but still they can give him all hell, dispite his enhanced mind to boot. He gotten beaten, hurt worse then capt or wolverine ever has vs skilled MA's for the most part, unless for some super power. Big differences is even when they do fight human level guys, thoses guys posses some sort of trait which works as an equalizer to Capt and Wolveirne physical advantages.

Wolveirne and capt also tend vast majority of the time to fight high level MA's who are physically on there level, this is not the cases when deahstroke fights high level MA's.

There a differences in level of opponents physical abilities between the two worlds. Marvel has vastly more low meta's who are very popular, while deathstroke is really the only guy at his level and is pretty much implied the bat family can give him hel becuase there superior in skill. These's arnt things that are refferrenced to capt or wolverine though.


really what green arrow people were these's?

@Q99

Not much. Even before his recent upgrade he has a history of high level skill showings vs people much more powerful then him.

@Shrank,

Slightly below Daredevil? Generous? I'll pretend I didn't see that.
Also, How do Mandarin and Temugin get classified as uber when most of their feats involve massive chi amping?

oops.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I know that was not really the point, I was trying to make. Deathstroke tends to fight MA who are physically inferior to him, which is acknowledge by them, but still they can give him all hell, dispite his enhanced mind to boot. He gotten beaten, hurt worse then capt or wolverine ever has vs skilled MA's for the most part, unless for some super power. Big differences is even when they do fight human level guys, thoses guys posses some sort of trait which works as an equalizer to Capt and Wolveirne physical advantages.

Wolveirne and capt also tend vast majority of the time to fight high level MA's who are physically on there level, this is not the cases when deahstroke fights high level MA's.

There a differences in level of opponents physical abilities between the two worlds. Marvel has vastly more low meta's who are very popular, while deathstroke is really the only guy at his level and is pretty much implied the bat family can give him hel becuase there superior in skill. These's arnt things that are refferrenced to capt or wolverine though.


really what green arrow people were these's?

i don't agree, tbh. slade has taken on people far more powerful people than him, and used his skill as an equaliser. that to me puts him on par with most of those guys.

the only question, imo, is how much of slade's greatness is his superhuman abilities and how much is pure skill.

green arrow. slade took on both him and black canary at the same time. and beat them.

Originally posted by dmills
Also, How do Mandarin and Temugin get classified as uber when most of their feats involve massive chi amping?

Indeed.

I believe when the hierarchy was originally constructed, while we were trying to avoid factoring in "power-based skill" we were considering "skill-based power."

That could be the reason they've been placed so highly.

The question to the thread is whether we want to consider "skill-based power" or not. And the consequential movement of characters depending upon that.

Edit: Also I will probably try and do an update of the list soon.

Originally posted by -Pr-
For Green Arrow to Third
For Tim Drake to Second
Against Starfire to Second. Third, maybe.
For Hawkeye to Second
Against "replacing" Constantine Drakon with Wonder Woman.

What about just bumping Drakon down? I think there's a couple in second that deserve first more than him.

Bumping down Drakon and bumping up Diana are two different things.




Hm... Dinah and Connor strike me as both lowish in the Top Tier.

Here are some of my suggestions:
Add Lashina to Third Tier, Kalibak likewise
Darksied to Fourth Tier
Kanto to Second Tier, at least
Mera to Third
Add Two-Face to Fourth
Tombstone to Fourth
Caiera to Third (or maybe Second)
Spider-Man to Fourth
Move Aquaman to Third
Juggernaut to Fourth
Add Faora to Second
Doctor Doom to Third
Lex Luthor to Fourth

Originally posted by Omega Vision
Here are some of my suggestions:
Add Lashina to Third Tier, Kalibak likewise
Darksied to Fourth Tier
Kanto to Second Tier, at least
Mera to Third
Add Two-Face to Fourth
Tombstone to Fourth
Caiera to Third (or maybe Second)
Spider-Man to Fourth
Move Aquaman to Third
Juggernaut to Fourth
Add Faora to Second
Doctor Doom to Third
Lex Luthor to Fourth

I second
Kanto to 2nd
Aquaman to 3rd
Doom to 3rd
Lashina and Kalibak to 3rd (both are trained warriors since birth)
Two-Face to 4rth

Against Mera to 3rd (She doesn't have any feats to suggest that)

I'll introduce suggested additions to third and fourth tier that have been seconded in the next update. I think that proposed additions to second tier should have a third proponent as a barrier to entry, to be fair to the characters already in the hierarchy.

I'm going to third, the suggestion of Barda into second tier.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
I have a problem with moving Hawkeye and this is my reasoning there are several characters within his very tier who are more skilled then he is or as skilled. Here is to name a few

People who are easily debatable as being nearly or more skilled are Black Knight, Mstigue, Yukio, sage, Shatter Star, US Agent


More skilled fighter

Blade, Midnighter,Psylocke, Punisher, Shadow Cat
Moon Knight,, Psylocke, Punisher, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Wild Child,

This is not even all of them, so I find it difficult to believe that Hawkeye should move up a rank when there are many as skilled and several more skilled and deserving. Some of those have been proposed to move up. (Some of them I still have you listed as against.)

I'm sure that consensus could be found to move some of those up at least.

Btw, is Nick Fury really second tier?

I mean, he may be, I've not seen his hand to hand too often, it's just most of the time I see him using guns a lot more. I'd assumed he was more of a third tier in martial arts.

-Orion (1:3) and WW (1:4) changes were defeated. Regarding Drakon, a new separate proposal has been added.

-I should note that movement of Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.

-Are people suggesting moving Mandarin and Temugin down - if so where? Beyond that, can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes.

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /
Darkseid to fourth tier: 1 /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 /
Kanto to second tier: 2 /
Mera to third: 1 / 1
Tombstone to fourth: 1 /
Caiera to third: 1 /
Spider-Man to fourth: 1 /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 /
Faora to second:1 /
Lex Luthor to fourth: 1 /
Ares (DC) to second: 1 /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 / 4
Kingpin to second: 5 / 6
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 4
Midnighter to second: 2 / 3
Blade to second: 4 / 4

New Proposed Changes
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 /
Tim Drake to second: 2 / 1
Alpha to second: 1 /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 /
Gamora to uber: 5 / 3
Black Canary to second: 1 /
Aquaman to third: 2 /
Merlyn (DC) to third: 1 /
Ares (Marvel) to second: 1 /
Mister Terrific to second: 1 /
Hercules to second: 1 /

Ares (DC) to second: 1 / -Sounds good, I'll give a yes vote

^ Second Black Canary to Second and Mister Terrific to Second as well as Gamora to Uber and DC Ares to Second.

I honestly don't see Gamora as "cosmic". Mantis I suppose is justified, KK certainly is. I still have a huge problem with Mandarin and Temugin being uber while Iron Fist is not.

Originally posted by dmills
I honestly don't see Gamora as "cosmic". Mantis I suppose is justified, KK certainly is. I still have a huge problem with Mandarin and Temugin being uber while Iron Fist is not.
I don't know much about Mandarin so I can't really make an official vote but I'd say him being Uber is a bit suspect.

lol at Mar-Vell being in second tier.

Anyway, I wonder how a proposed Wolverine to second tier would go about...

Originally posted by Blanket
lol at Mar-Vell being in second tier.

Anyway, I wonder how a proposed Wolverine to second tier would go about...
Battlehammer's rage would shut down the Internet.

Second Gamora to uber. Motion to bump Iron Fist up to uber based on Mandarin and Temugin being there. Iron Fist has displayed more pure skill on panel, as well as higher end feats.

Then it may be a case of moving Mandarin and Temugin down, rather than moving Iron Fist up...
Originally posted by Blanket
lol at Mar-Vell being in second tier.

Anyway, I wonder how a proposed Wolverine to second tier would go about... You could try it and see...

All the changes are still subject to subsequent change, should there be enough support, so Mar-Vell can move back up...

But preferably people shouldn't propose a change be reversed immediately upon it being enacted.

I'm against the proposed movement of Drakon and Black Canary. Drakon's one sided ass kicking on Connor (who has held is own agaisnt Shiva) is one of the most impressive skill feats of any of the DC characters in the top tier group and is largely unmatched. I could maybe see Canary being replaced with Catman, since he has stalemated Batman and Bronze Tiger, but I think that is a little premature. While I agree that I don't necessarily buy into Oracle saying Dinah is more skilled than Bruce, I wouldn't give any other DC character on the list odds against her in a strictly h2h match.

Catman needs to be added to the list also.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Then it may be a case of moving Mandarin and Temugin down, rather than moving Iron Fist up...
You could try it and see...

All the changes are still subject to subsequent change, should there be enough support, so Mar-Vell can move back up...

But preferably people shouldn't propose a change be reversed immediately upon it being enacted. Oh, I'm not trying to bump Mar-Vell up, since it would be absolutely pointless. Just smiling at the change.

Originally posted by dmills
Second Gamora to uber. Motion to bump Iron Fist up to uber based on Mandarin and Temugin being there. Iron Fist has displayed more pure skill on panel, as well as higher end feats.

Unlike Iron Fist, the Mandarin and Temugin don't get beaten or stalemated by street level MAs. That's why they are higher.

Daredevil and Shang-Chi are both more skilled than Danny in terms of technique and application of their skill. Danny is more powerful and versatile sure but he isn't the most skilled person on the top tier listing. The Mandarin and Temugin are nuts, and they didn't steal their chi from a dragon.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I'm against the proposed movement of Drakon and Black Canary. Drakon's one sided ass kicking on Connor (who has held is own agaisnt Shiva) is one of the most impressive skill feats of any of the DC characters in the top tier group and is largely unmatched.

But he has super-speed, it's not like he did it based on pure skill, he just blitzed him.




I think she's still more skilled than Catman. In the BT/CM fight, I did get the impression that Catman was having to push himself harder to keep up with a more skilled foe, and got a little lucky).

Originally posted by Q99
But he has super-speed, it's not like he did it based on pure skill, he just blitzed him.




I think she's still more skilled than Catman. In the BT/CM fight, I did get the impression that Catman was having to push himself harder to keep up with a more skilled foe, and got a little lucky).

He doesn't have super-speed, anymore than Batman does at least. He caught some arrows and blitzed a dude with a throwing knife. Sure, it was an awesome feat of skill but Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Shiva have that crazy dagger relfection feat which is comparable to his speed.

Yeah, Bronze Tiger was defiantly more skilled than Catman in that encounter, which makes sense considering the idea they are trying to sell in Secret Six (and I don't know how successfully) is that Catman = Batman in terms of skill, and Bronze Tiger is more skilled than Bruce.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He doesn't have super-speed, anymore than Batman does at least. He caught some arrows and blitzed a dude with a throwing knife. Sure, it was an awesome feat of skill but Richard Dragon, Bronze Tiger and Shiva have that crazy dagger relfection feat which is comparable to his speed.




He cause like a dozen arrows with two fingers shot by the best archers in DC and is totally casual about doing so. Batman couldn't do that. Cassandra Cain couldn't do that. They could dodge some, catch others, but pluck that many fired by the arrow family so calmly? Not even they could do that.



And what happens when Connor actually has enough space to react to him? Drakon just leaps forward and gets stabbed in the side. When skill comes to the table he's outdone.

@shrank,

No. He killed the dragon with his skills alone. Then he gained it's chi, which took years of skill and practice to master it's use.

@shrank,

Is that because of their chi amping or because of their skills? I'll answer for you, you don't know because all they have shown is high level chi amping. Nothing about it is "Pure Skill".

Originally posted by Q99
What about just bumping Drakon down? I think there's a couple in second that deserve first more than him.

Bumping down Drakon and bumping up Diana are two different things.

it goes back to what X just said. i think a consensus has to be reached about whether we allow skill based power to be a contributing factor.



in pure skill? maybe connor, but not dinah imo. unless she's like, absolute bottom.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it goes back to what X just said. i think a consensus has to be reached about whether we allow skill based power to be a contributing factor.


I'm not even sure if it's a skill-based power. I think he's simply a metahuman.

His durability to stuff like an explosion also seems rather high.


---

Oh, one other proposed change: I'd like to bump the Twelve Brothers in Silk down to tier 3. They were said to be 'near Shiva,' but I think only Rabbit lived up to it. Dinah's team of 7 was able to hold them off pretty well.

Twelve tier 3 fighters of course (perhaps with a few tier 2s in there), still being an absolutely terrifying combat group.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not even sure if it's a skill-based power. I think he's simply a metahuman.

His durability to stuff like an explosion also seems rather high.


---

Oh, one other proposed change: I'd like to bump the Twelve Brothers in Silk down to tier 3. They were said to be 'near Shiva,' but I think only Rabbit lived up to it. Dinah's team of 7 was able to hold them off pretty well.

Twelve tier 3 fighters of course (perhaps with a few tier 2s in there), still being an absolutely terrifying combat group.

ive honestly never been sure about his speed.

on that second note, i think Savant should be included. In Second, i think.

I was always under the assumption that Drakon was "metahuman" only insomuch as Cass or others in the Top Tier were. Most of them have their own feats of incredible physicality.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I was always under the assumption that Drakon was "metahuman" only insomuch as Cass or others in the Top Tier were. Most of them have their own feats of incredible physicality.

that's honestly what i thought.

Nemesis gets no love.

Haters! The whole lot of you!

Originally posted by StyleTime
Nemesis gets no love.

Haters! The whole lot of you!

Well, gimme some convincing and I'll second the addition proposal. But a third would probably still be needed for a second tier placement.

Or vote on the others in the giant list of proposals, to weed it down, so that the Nemesis addition becomes more prominent...

Which Nemesis? It's a very commonly used name.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I was always under the assumption that Drakon was "metahuman" only insomuch as Cass or others in the Top Tier were. Most of them have their own feats of incredible physicality.

Some of his feats make me think otherwise. Grabbing dozens of arrows as fast as Connor and Mia could fire them all with his fingertips and not moving his body. Likewise getting multiple shafts at once from Ollie.

Connor could keep up with Shiva and Cass, who're about as fast as you can get (and really Cassandra strains 'peak human' to the limit as-is). He could barely see most of Drakon's moves, and there's times when he's talking to an arrow, they try something, and he's suddenly on the other side of the room.

The explosion thing again. He was caught full-on by an explosion and came out of it with *no* visible damage except for some missing hair (which might've been from the glue arrow that he got!) and the kind of bandaids you use to hide shaving cuts. No burns. No signs of damage from the arrow that went through his foot either. That's either super toughness or a healing factor.

He's got some crazy strength for his size too, but that's less obviously super. Still, casually carrying a guy twice your weight at arms length out a window is possibly metahuman as well.


That kind of difference screams "this is a martial artist who is also superhuman" to me. Stopping arrows from the Arrow family? Believable. All of them? Also believable, but really difficult. Doing it while not dodging or spending apparent effort all with the finger tips while these are fired by 100+ lb draw bows? Treating it almost like a bore? Ehh... if that's not superhuman, then he's uber tier, not top tier.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it goes back to what X just said. i think a consensus has to be reached about whether we allow skill based power to be a contributing factor.On this inquiry... would Mantis' liberal use of precog with her fighting nullify her placement? Originally posted by Original Smurph
I feel like Hawkeye should move from Third to Second, but maybe I'm misjudging. I support this. Definitely not misjudging. Originally posted by Blanket
Against Mar-vell moving down, against Gamora moving down (lol), against the Wonder Woman move, against Orion (lol), and ya, that should be all. I support all of this (although Mar-vell is a moot point now). Also curious as to should Gamora come down, who would rise to take her spot? Originally posted by dmills
Iron Fist needs to be bumped up to uber. ASAP. I support this. Originally posted by comicfan11
Ares Marvel should be higher. I support this.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
On this inquiry... would Mantis' liberal use of precog with her fighting nullify her placement?

I wouldn't say so. I don't think it's not constant Ravager/Threeboot Dream Girl "I know all your next moves" stuff most of the time. More visions of the future stuff. Iirc she hasn't always had such a powerful array of psychics either.

She can still nerve-strike out Thor and that's pure skill. Heck, there's only a few top-tiers that I think could pull off some of her fights even if they had added pre-cog.



No-one, Transcend doesn't need it's spots full.

^ To me, her precog is tightly interwoven with her fighting ability.

I believe it's rather uncontroversial to argue that Gamora could do the same to Thor based on her history of using nerve-strikes on durable foes.

More people vote Drake up .

That he's below people he has beaten and stalemated multiple times is BS.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
More people vote Drake up .

That he's below people he has beaten and stalemated multiple times is BS.

I'd vote for Drake to be moved up to Second.

Alright, so we've got a second to bump Iron Fist to uber.

I just can't support Gamora as uber. It's one thing to have skill based power i.e. Temugin or Iron Fist, it's another to have enhancement based skills. And ya'll know I lovez me some Gamora.

^ Her enhancements don't have anything to do with her equal mastery of armed and unarmed techniques from AT LEAST 83.4% of known space faring cultures as per the Worldmind. She's just that adept. Even side by side with Mantis, her enhancements still play second fiddle to her skill, e.g., Guardians of the Galaxy #24.

^^^ I hear ya, but ehhh. It's tough. Forgot about the WM dossier. I must concede I'm pretty tough on artifically enhanced MA'ers in these types of threads, but you raise a good point.

-I should note that movement of either Canary or Drakon down without replacement will simply result in a vacant DC top tier slot.

-Ares (DC) will be entered into the hierarchy at second, if that proposal remains unopposed, at the next update.

-Can people weigh in on the huge list below, before we move onto any new additions or changes for a bit? Particularly the Old Proposed Changes.

Proposed Additions' Entry Points
Darkseid to second tier: 1 /
Darkseid to fourth tier: 1 /
Nemesis to second tier: 1 /
Kanto to second tier: 2 /
Mera to third: 1 / 1
Tombstone to fourth: 1 /
Caiera to third: 1 /
Spider-Man to fourth: 1 /
Juggernaut to fourth: 1 /
Faora to second:1 /
Lex Luthor to fourth: 1 /
Ares (DC) to second: 3 /
Catman to second?: 1 /
Savant to second: 1 /

Old Proposed Changes
Jubilee to third: 3 / 4
Kingpin to second: 5 / 6
Moon Knight to second: 4 / 4
Midnighter to second: 2 / 3
Blade to second: 4 / 4

New Proposed Changes
Constantine Drakon to second: 1 / 1
Tim Drake to second: 2 / 1
Alpha to second: 1 /
Mad Dog Cain to second: 1 /
Gamora to uber: 6 / 4
Black Canary to second: 2 / 1
Aquaman to third: 2 /
Merlyn (DC) to third: 1 /
Ares (Marvel) to second: 2 /
Mister Terrific to second: 2 /
Hercules to second: 1 /
Iron Fist to uber: 2 / 1
Twelve Brothers to third: 1 /

With Iron Fist is this purely his fighting proweess or is all his chi powers and stuff adding to this?

Because pure fighting skill I think he's right where he should be

Some other suggestions:
Add Ulik to Third Tier
Add Absorbing Man to Fourth Tier
Add Vargas to Second Tier
Add Black Adam and Billy Batson to Fourth Tier
Swap places between David Cain and Bane

Originally posted by jalek moye
With Iron Fist is this purely his fighting proweess or is all his chi powers and stuff adding to this?

Because pure fighting skill I think he's right where he should be Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I believe when the hierarchy was originally constructed, while we were trying to avoid factoring in "power-based skill" we were considering "skill-based power."

That could be the reason they've been placed so highly.

The question to the thread is whether we want to consider "skill-based power" or not. And the consequential movement of characters depending upon that. I think it's up to the denizens of the thread to determine whether or not things like chi factor into placement in general or not, (or even on a case-by-case basis, although a general rule would be preferable, imo).

I'm going to change my vote on Drakon from "Move to second tier" to "move to second OR uber tier".

Because if his speed is super, then he hasn't demonstrated TT skill. If it's not and he's just that good, then he was so overwhelming a top tier barely put up a fight! Out of the top tiers, only the very best of 'em would have a chance.

So if people don't think he's powered, he should move up.



Why swap? If you think Bane's good enough for second, Cain doesn't have to go down, and Cain's able to give top tiers a very good fight when he's not drunk, imo pretty clearly second.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm going to change my vote on Drakon from "Move to second tier" to "move to second OR uber tier".

Because if his speed is super, then he hasn't demonstrated TT skill. If it's not and he's just that good, then he was so overwhelming a top tier barely put up a fight! Out of the top tiers, only the very best of 'em would have a chance.

So if people don't think he's powered, he should move up.



Why swap? If you think Bane's good enough for second, Cain doesn't have to go down, and Cain's able to give top tiers a very good fight when he's not drunk, imo pretty clearly second.
I guess I feel like Bane deserves that spot much more. You're right, Cain doesn't have to go down but I personally don't see how he's better or even equal to Bane who even without Venom gives Top Tiers serious fights consistently.

Edit: Also I vote we add Harley Quinn to Fourth Tier.

I think historically Iron Fist has more then enough high end non chi amped feats to warrant his current placement. The chi skills push him over the top, but no more or less then any others.

I'm confused now, are you (dmills) still backing the proposal to move Iron Fist up?

I think he's fine where he is. His recent power boosts have been about increase chi control.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Well, gimme some convincing and I'll second the addition proposal. But a third would probably still be needed for a second tier placement.

Or vote on the others in the giant list of proposals, to weed it down, so that the Nemesis addition becomes more prominent...
That's sounds like an awful lot of work ermm

I already stated my reasoning though. I guess I can put up some scans when the semester ends. I figured we had enough Wildcats readers that I wouldn't have to though.
Originally posted by Q99
Which Nemesis? It's a very commonly used name.

Charis Adrastea from Wildstorm.

Also, which Savant do you mean Pr?

If it's the Bird of Prey Savant I can see him at second.

Originally posted by StyleTime


Charis Adrastea from Wildstorm.


Hah, *so* commonly a used name I forgot about her when I was thinking of 3~ others

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes I'm still backing bumping him up. Absolutely. Especially considering most objections against him can be used against most of the upper tier characters on the list.

@Q99,
No. The knowledge gained from the Book of the Iron fist has helped him increase his skills dramatically. He's doing things without amping that he was never able to do before.